Ok Lets discuss this in detail many are upset that we traded Giants traded a 3 and a 4 if signed for a former 1st rounder coming up on a potential contract if we sign him. Right? the argument is we should have waited until end of season Right?
If we don't sign we lose the 3 but get it back in compensation if he is signed somewhere else but still lose a 5th.
So why would the Giants do this. IMO its a no brainer -you get this guy who you think can become a building block on D and Locker room in the building and you see what he is all about -on the field and off. Good worker, good teammate, good character guy ?etc. and get a chance to really evaluate a guy who you potentially might give a big contract too. this is smart.
No other way to see it imo So in essence you traded a 3 and 4 for a 1st round talent. Also you already know if one of the other vets say a CB gets signed by another team you get back that 3 at least in compensation.
DT is a really deep part of the team, and i still feel like we would have been better off keeping snacks and drafting dlaw we need edge rushers, LBs and a safety
Eli and Williams will be only loses.
I suspect the Giants will sign 2 decent players with the 60 million
You can't possibly evaluate this trade by concluding "well if he doesn't sign, we get the 3rd back."
I like Williams as a player but he must be signed for this move to make any sense.
he will be part of a solid front 7 once we add a couple more pieces. Im fine with the move....
We sure are lucky to have an innovative GM like Gettleman who has seemingly invented a new way to rebuild!
If the Giants continue to suck and can draft Chase Young - sign another edge rusher (maybe keep Golden as a situational pass rusher) - get Connelly back - and get some improvement from a young group of DBs like Beal, Ballentine, Baker, Love, Peppers - I hate to the ONE guy around here that has some optimism... BUT maybe - just maybe - the defense can turn it around next year....
I agree with that and the possibility of losing him means we lost a draft pick just to have a guy for half a season in which we were already toast in. That would be the double whammy.
If the Giants continue to suck and can draft Chase Young - sign another edge rusher (maybe keep Golden as a situational pass rusher) - get Connelly back - and get some improvement from a young group of DBs like Beal, Ballentine, Baker, Love, Peppers - I hate to the ONE guy around here that has some optimism... BUT maybe - just maybe - the defense can turn it around next year....
Excellent
The pressure is definitely on the Giants to get a deal done and will probably have to over pay to keep him.
In a vacuum, you can make the argument for trading a 3 & a 4 for LW, but this wasn’t done in a vacuum. For a 2-10 team, picks are vital, and you’ve just squandered 2 to get a guy looking at his big payday.
My biggest issue with the trade is the pressure it puts on DG to resign him. DG CANNOT let LW get away, and Team LW knows that. That is a terrible negotiating position.
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any way you want to look at it - the run defense has improved dramatically since his arrival.
If the Giants continue to suck and can draft Chase Young - sign another edge rusher (maybe keep Golden as a situational pass rusher) - get Connelly back - and get some improvement from a young group of DBs like Beal, Ballentine, Baker, Love, Peppers - I hate to the ONE guy around here that has some optimism... BUT maybe - just maybe - the defense can turn it around next year....
Excellent
NEED:
- 2 very good edge rushers
- a good Bethea replacement
- 1 solid inside LB
ASSUMING:
- if not Jackrabbit, a shut down corner appears
- Young DB's all improve, Baker, Love, Ballentine, Beal
- CONNELY returns and is as good as he was
$12M? Are you kidding me? That's not even in the ballpark if LW has a competent agent.
The minimum, if we are lucky, is $15M. In reality, the LW Team will be starting at $17M.
This is one of the dumbest, most ill-conceived trades I've ever seen. People want a reason to fire Gettleman for incompetence, then this is it.
I've gone through the comps in this and the baseline is going to be Grady Jarrett.
The other point I’d make is that Williams was never going to hit the open market, given the reported interest from other teams. To have Williams on your team, you needed to give the Jets draft picks and then give LW a contract. Picks + $ , that is the package.
That doesn’t address whether Williams is or isn’t a good FA Target. But it does put to rest the “why not sign him in the open market” error.
*As others have mentioned, if he leaves, we won't be getting a comp pick because we have so much money to spend in FA
*By not agreeing to a contract extension before the trade, the Giants lost all leverage in contract negotiations. Now, if the Giants don't sign him, the Giant's are the idiots who gave up a 3rd and a 5th for a half season rental on a non-competitive team. The Giants NEED to sign him to save face. I'll be very surprised if we don't pay him $15m+ per year.
*He's a good player, but he's not elite. This is a lot of trouble to go through, and a lot to give up, for someone who doesn't fill a need and isn't amazing.
The per year $ are steep - but there's an opt out after 2021. With limited dead cap money (the Jarrett contract).
LW has been a difference against the run - there's no denying that. Next year the NYG will be young and relatively cheap. The Giants will be in position to pay him and they should.
I agree with you, however, that trading for him was dumb. Not sure why they just wouldn't wait until the end of the season and sign him w/o tipping their hand and having to over pay.
Aaron Donald’s cap hit in 2020: $25.0mm. That’s what a Hall of Fame level lineman costs.
*As others have mentioned, if he leaves, we won't be getting a comp pick because we have so much money to spend in FA
*By not agreeing to a contract extension before the trade, the Giants lost all leverage in contract negotiations. Now, if the Giants don't sign him, the Giant's are the idiots who gave up a 3rd and a 5th for a half season rental on a non-competitive team. The Giants NEED to sign him to save face. I'll be very surprised if we don't pay him $15m+ per year.
*He's a good player, but he's not elite. This is a lot of trouble to go through, and a lot to give up, for someone who doesn't fill a need and isn't amazing.
He was a need - the Giants couldn't stop the run prior to him arriving.
They stop the run in the same capacity that the best defenses in the league do - now.
Aaron Donald’s cap hit in 2020: $25.0mm. That’s what a Hall of Fame level lineman costs.
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In comment 14705302 Dnew15 said:
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any way you want to look at it - the run defense has improved dramatically since his arrival.
If the Giants continue to suck and can draft Chase Young - sign another edge rusher (maybe keep Golden as a situational pass rusher) - get Connelly back - and get some improvement from a young group of DBs like Beal, Ballentine, Baker, Love, Peppers - I hate to the ONE guy around here that has some optimism... BUT maybe - just maybe - the defense can turn it around next year....
Excellent
The defense is close. I believe 4 players get them there
NEED:
- 2 very good edge rushers
- a good Bethea replacement
- 1 solid inside LB
ASSUMING:
- if not Jackrabbit, a shut down corner appears
- Young DB's all improve, Baker, Love, Ballentine, Beal
- CONNELY returns and is as good as he was
Just line their stats up side by side, too. They are eerily similar from tackles, solo tackles, sacks, FF, etc.
And from what I read, LW is a darling of the analytics guys. So I have to imagine Team LW is aware of that, too.
$17M is probably $18M as the the starting point...
DG takes a lot of crap (some justified) but his mantra is what wins in the NFC East (to me it always has). I really think he will build a top 5 D just a year later than hoped.
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Jarrett got $68mm from the Falcons, avg of $17mm per year with $42mm guaranteed. I see no reason to think Williams wouldn’t see this as a floor, as LW has a much bigger rep than an under publicized player like Jarrett. This is what high quality linemen get in the current market.
Just line their stats up side by side, too. They are eerily similar from tackles, solo tackles, sacks, FF, etc.
And from what I read, LW is a darling of the analytics guys. So I have to imagine Team LW is aware of that, too.
$17M is probably $18M as the the starting point...
The other point I’d make is that Williams was never going to hit the open market, given the reported interest from other teams. To have Williams on your team, you needed to give the Jets draft picks and then give LW a contract. Picks + $ , that is the package.
...
I believe this is an assumption - there could easily have been interest from other teams who are playoff candidates that needed LW as a rental for a playoff run.
For those teams, he easily could have been worth a third if they felt his performance merited it. Bonus points to them if they had less cap space to spend in the offseason, where a departure by LW could help their comp pick chances.
For the Giants, anyone assuming a comp pick in return is also assuming the Giants are sitting on their cap dollars.
Kill me right fucking now if they sign him for 17M+ per. The Jets know more about him than anyone...
Look, maybe Gettleman has compromising of photos of LW and has a superior hand in this. Or LW is unexplicably kind and willing to concede on a team friendly contract.
But I just don't see it. The "best" outcome would be a franchise tag for DTs, which looks like it's going to be close to $16M.
If the Giants continue to suck and can draft Chase Young - sign another edge rusher (maybe keep Golden as a situational pass rusher) - get Connelly back - and get some improvement from a young group of DBs like Beal, Ballentine, Baker, Love, Peppers - I hate to the ONE guy around here that has some optimism... BUT maybe - just maybe - the defense can turn it around next year....
I agree with that. But I like Williams as a building block player, many here do not. That said I feel like we should have already had a deal in place.
Unless Williams plays it like Kirk Cousins - takes his $16M franchise tag pay for this year, and dares them to do it again next year or let him walk. The Giants dysfunction, should it continue, would provide all the plausible deniability in the world should he have another up and down season. His only risk would be injury, and if he managed to do it for two seasons he'd have collected roughly $40M in guaranteed salary.
It would definitely be risky - but it's not unprecedented. And he'd be able to pocket the same $45M if not more the following year, after depositing $16M for the season.
It would have to be an agreement - an actual, signed deal would require league approval and would be public knowledge by now.
If it is a verbal only agreement, both sides (LW and the Giants) are idiots. If LW tears an ACL this week, do you think the Giants still sign him to the deal negotiated? If LW rips off 8 sacks in the next four weeks, do you think he does?
It is very, very safe to assume there is no binding deal in place.
With $60 million in cap space, we are not likely to do that.
We will be out two draft picks.
Imagine you are LW and having spent 8 games on this team you decide this isn't the place for you. There are better teams with bigger pockets and there is a great offer out there, and the Giants franchise you.
No one seems to want to contemplate that he might not want to be here after getting a close look at this mess.
Imagine you are LW and having spent 8 games on this team you decide this isn't the place for you. There are better teams with bigger pockets and there is a great offer out there, and the Giants franchise you.
No one seems to want to contemplate that he might not want to be here after getting a close look at this mess.
I'm more afraid of the latter - that he's accustomed to this type of mess, and is comfortable in it. He'll take his paycheck, cash it and turn up on Sundays, just like he did with the Jets.
Let's just part ways with someone and claw back at least one of those picks Resume wasted on LW.
Oh jeez thanks a lot, now I’m reading the gettledogman posts in DGs voice and I want to rip out all my hair
He's a 4-3 DE