That while Rivera did have a 15-1 season, outside of that 15-1 year, he has a losing record 64-66-1 over his other 8 seasons and 1-3 playoffs in those other 8 seasons.
It looks to me like they built up 1 team with an NFL MVP QB and 10 Pro Bowlers and then they have been pretty bad since with 3 out 4 losing seasons and no playoff wins.
HC's need to be leaders of men. OC/DC Coordinators can be just x's and O's guys, because other people are handling the motivation and people management. Lot of coordinators fail because of this. They think all they have to do is list the X's and O's and the team will respond.
The best motivational speeches I ever heard were delivered calmly with deliberation.
For the biggest game I ever played in our HC who had won like 9/10 conference titles over the previous decade, had us go through our warmups in complete silence. He called it "keeping the cork in the bottle" until we actually kicked off.
We went about our business like a team of silent assassins, ninjas. Cleanly and clearly beat a more physically talented team.
Same in MA leadership where the Masters I studied under made other studio "masters" look like ass clowns.
People who know their shit get listened to, not jackasses who scream and curse.
The Giants have been wrapped up in loyalty, culture, stabilizing, adulthood, transitions, excuses, inspiration etc. for far too long.
How about systematically building a program that will win a championship. How about a coach who's obsessed with availing every advantage and management obsessed with finding great players.
I'm so sick of this "OC mindset that all we need to do is the Â
But ask yourself if those types of speeches work in week 14 when the team is 4-9
Ron Rivera is a great coach, just like Tom Coughlin was. The difference is that TC came to a team with talent that needed to be harnessed and it's energy directed towards the right direction.
I don't see that here. This team is too far away from competing for Rivera to be effective. It's not the right moment in time-- we don't have the players for the constant negativity speeches to work.
RE: I have a feeling this does absolutely nothing for the modern player Â
If anything I wouldn't be surprised if most of them are amused by speeches like this.
No I don't think its about the type of player.
It wouldn't work here because we don't have the players or the talent for it to work. Rivera is the coach you hire to throw your team over the hill because he's the master motivator and he will get all the players to work in harmony. To me, hes the guy you bring in as the last piece. For instance, I think he could be great for the Cleveland Browns or the Chargers. Teams with talent that are underperforming
We don't have the players to offer for this style to work. That's why we've hired specialists-- guys that may be able to scheme their ways to victory when our talent differential is very low.
the rah rah testosterone negativity stuff doesn't work on a team that is constantly losing.
It's ok, Britt. You got all fired up and had those goosebumps and were ready to run through your computer monitor.
And then you found out that the Panthers got their asses kicked after that speech. So now it's cumulative?
Look I get it, you think it's going to happen, and you've been right on what the Giants will do more often than not recently. I'm not sure why that immediately becomes a rah-rah campaign for you, it's a little weird that you immediately latch onto what you think is going to happen and start rooting like hell for it out of nowhere, but whatever - your track record lately has been accurate.
But that only tells me two things: 1) that the Giants almost always do the most obvious thing, and 2) your suggestions/assumptions about what they will do still aren't good even if they're correct. In fact, I wish you got it wrong much more often, because everything you've championed and gotten right has failed.
It's not based on one thing. It's not based on this speech, or his final press conference, or any one single thing.
It's cumulative. This is the type of person I think we need in that lockerroom right now.
And I think it's going to happen. So you can take all the shots you want at it, guess we'll see what happens.
Of course Rivera is the odds on favorite to be HC. The Giants going with an incredibly familiar character to someone in the brass is about as easy to guess as the sun rising.
And then that character, while being a completely fine dude, not being able to overcome the deeply engrained issues in the organization is equally easy to predict.
on that thread was "you want to hire the man based on one press conference?"
No, I want to hire the overall package. The record, the demeanor, all of it. The whole package.
You guys like to focus with laser like precision on whatever the one thing being presented is and tear it apart.
The guy was 2x AP Coach of the year and took his team to the Superbowl with a 15-1 record. That's not good enough for you. Okay. Whatever. We disagree on the level of job he did there.
on that thread was "you want to hire the man based on one press conference?"
No, I want to hire the overall package. The record, the demeanor, all of it. The whole package.
You guys like to focus with laser like precision on whatever the one thing being presented is and tear it apart.
The guy was 2x AP Coach of the year and took his team to the Superbowl with a 15-1 record. That's not good enough for you. Okay. Whatever. We disagree on the level of job he did there.
Look, it's not that. I just don't trust anything the Giants do anymore until they prove that their decision making process has improved. And until that happens, I'm not especially thrilled with how often you get your predictions right, either!
My bigger issue is how you can go from indifferent to absolutely smitten in an instant. From the moment Rivera became available, you have been gushing over him like a teenage schoolgirl with her first crush. It's one thing to feel like it's inevitable, and it's fine to think that it's a match that makes sense. But you're acting like Rivera is the coach you've wanted here your whole life and just didn't know it.
I'm not sure what the angle there is, but something about that immediate adoration/adulation seems odd to me.
RE: RE: Yeah, and I posted the press conference too.... Â
on that thread was "you want to hire the man based on one press conference?"
No, I want to hire the overall package. The record, the demeanor, all of it. The whole package.
You guys like to focus with laser like precision on whatever the one thing being presented is and tear it apart.
The guy was 2x AP Coach of the year and took his team to the Superbowl with a 15-1 record. That's not good enough for you. Okay. Whatever. We disagree on the level of job he did there.
Look, it's not that. I just don't trust anything the Giants do anymore until they prove that their decision making process has improved. And until that happens, I'm not especially thrilled with how often you get your predictions right, either!
My bigger issue is how you can go from indifferent to absolutely smitten in an instant. From the moment Rivera became available, you have been gushing over him like a teenage schoolgirl with her first crush. It's one thing to feel like it's inevitable, and it's fine to think that it's a match that makes sense. But you're acting like Rivera is the coach you've wanted here your whole life and just didn't know it.
I'm not sure what the angle there is, but something about that immediate adoration/adulation seems odd to me.
This isn't a prediction. It's something I WANT! I will be disappointed if it doesn't happen, not because I'm wrong, but because it didn't happen.
Here's the thing... I didn't expect a coach of, what I believe to be, Rivera's caliber to come loose. I thought Jason Garrett would be the best available veteran head coach. And that's what I believe we need, a veteran head coach.
Furthermore, the timing and the Gettleman relationship couldn't be better for this. I know you hate Gettleman. I don't, so you have to remember I'm not coming at it fro an angle of hating Gettleman like you are. I do believe Shurmur is a complete bust and am ready to turn the page there.
I believe, like you guys, that there needs to be a symbiotic relationship between the GM and Coach. You guys just want the young, up and coming, new version of that. I want the veteran combo. Love it or hate it, Gettleman and Rivera had a good run together in Carolina that yielded 3 division titles, a Superbowl appearance, and made Rivera 2x Coach of the year and Gettleman the Executive of the Year award one of those years. That's impressive to me, and I'd like to see that recreated here.
And honestly, where are we if you view this through the lens of..... Â
Is this coach going to drastically improve the brewing disconnect between co-owners, the wild swings in loyalty and costs with incumbent players, the quality of Gettleman's UFA acquisitions, and the dubious wisdom behind many of his trades?
If Rivera is qualified and given the mandate to tell Gettleman to get his shine box, and at the same time tell Mara and Tisch to stay in their lane, that'd be a good start.
Because this nightmare isn't just better coaching away from being championship caliber.
I would rather see him yelling about technique changes and point out how his guys are getting beat on every play rather than just a rah rah. Tell the guys specifically what their doing wrong not just that they need to nut up.
Rivera might have better offers - I think he's a solid coach and he's probably viewed favorably around the league. There are only 32 of these jobs, etc., but I'm skeptical of the Giants being able to get their top choice (Rivera or otherwise). I'm obviously a harsh DG critic so my bias may be creeping in here, but if I'm a coach with options a place where the GM might only have a year to show substantial progress would have me hesitant.
Does DG survive another 4-12 year? Or do we need to get to 6-10? It's probably not that clear cut, obviously.
I'd also add, a team as bad as the Giants should almost certainly show some record improvement at some point by default. Without knowing what led to (for example) a 6-10 record, it's hard to assess the job management is doing.
Between 2008-2017, the Browns threw in a 7-9 season, for example.
Rivera might have better offers - I think he's a solid coach and he's probably viewed favorably around the league. There are only 32 of these jobs, etc., but I'm skeptical of the Giants being able to get their top choice (Rivera or otherwise). I'm obviously a harsh DG critic so my bias may be creeping in here, but if I'm a coach with options a place where the GM might only have a year to show substantial progress would have me hesitant.
Does DG survive another 4-12 year? Or do we need to get to 6-10? It's probably not that clear cut, obviously.
My skepticism is probably creeping in, but I suspect the Giants won't do much by way of an evaluation of the program, and will give Gettleman the green light to make the coaching decision.
I suspect if Gettleman and Rivera worked well together, and the money is equal Rivera will end up in NY.
The Giants favor consistency in management. Gettleman has the very bad job Reese did, the shadow of Manning, and the promise of Jones as mitigating factors.
We'll then be treated to more excuses on how the rebuild really just started in 2020, that the ghost of Reese made Gettleman make all the mistakes, and how Rivera just isn't an adult, he's a grandpa.
coaches choices depend on where they think they can win Â
Some ownerships are toxic like Daniel Snyder, but id imagine ours generally giving coaches less of a quick trigger makes this team's ownership situation relatively neutral for coaches willing to work in a more traditional structure, though there are potential problems for coaches who want more control (like mcdaniels supposedly did). That's an area where ownership needs to be a lot more open minded going forward if they actually want to get a coaching hire right.
So of the likely team's with openings, Rivera's (or Rhule's) decision will probably come down to do I think I have a better chance of winning with Foles or Minshew and the Jags roster or the Giants? Or if Cleveland cans Kitchens, would I rather coach Mayfield or Jones?
Carolina has an interesting situation bc of the new owner but it seems like they will probably go out of the box a little and maybe spend a ton of money on a young guy like Lincoln Riley or something. But that coach will need to evaluate the Cam Newton situation or if they are finding their guy.
I'd expect Washington and Haskins to be a less appealing situation for a lot of reasons even though Snyder could just write a blank check.
that has been the org's philosophy. With the way things have gone so badly, I don't know if I see him offloading that responsibility without another proven organizational leader in place (Shurmur is the only HC DG has ever even been involved in hiring).
I could see Mara changing the structure going forward because lord knows his process has been a disaster (I highly doubt EA will be involved again) and hopefully Tisch will be able to push him to being willing to be more flexible in accommodating a new coaches demands for more control. I don't see him offloading the hiring decision to someone else though. So for at least this one I think it's Mara once again with input from DG, Tisch, and whoever else.
Rhule and Rivera are the 2 guys who I'd feel pretty confident will be in the mix at this point, and in a scenario like that DG may have a strong opinion either way but despite that I believe it will be Mara making the call.
First, I think the best thing for the franchise right now would be to hire a young HC (someone like Matt Rhule) & then hire a GM who Rhule would work well with & have a shared vision for the team. Preferably, the GM would also be young & you give both plenty of time to see the plan through. This is how you hopefully get back to the Steelers structure of sustainability.
However, I know there is a good chance that won’t happen. Gettleman took on massive dead cap money this year & drafted Daniel Jones at #6 last April. Changing course 9 months later is unlikely.
I believe a huge part of our problem the last 6 years has been a lack of harmony between GM & HC. I don’t think Reese & Coughlin were on the same page. It never made sense to me that Shurmur was the guy after hearing Gettleman describe defensive minded head coaches. Gettleman doesn’t feel like a offensive specialist HC type GM. I don’t think it’s a good fit. I believe Gettleman wanted Patricia.
I do think Gettleman-Rivera would fit the best in terms of GM/HC philosophy, the best in a long term with this franchise. If Gettleman will be retained which I think is probably the case, I think pairing Rivera with him makes the most sense.
Some good points here Sean. Rivera seems to check a lot of boxes. Wonder if they'd try to bring Garrett in as OC vs. hiring Turner.
Garrett is likely not a hot commodity at HC at his point after the Cowboys self destruction.
Would love Marinelli as a DC but don't know if he would prefer to work under a more offensive minded head coach (less control, more micromanagement).
Some combo of:
HC Rivera
OC Turner, Garrett,Gruden,Kubiak (I like him the best)
DC Marinelli
OL Callahan
ST Keep McGaughey
It looks to me like they built up 1 team with an NFL MVP QB and 10 Pro Bowlers and then they have been pretty bad since with 3 out 4 losing seasons and no playoff wins.
I don't get it.
I hope Rivera doesn't kiss his mom with that mouth.
We on the other hand have a sweet and nurturing baby sitter.
Tom Coughlin, Bill Parcells, Vince Lombardi and tons of other legendary coaches did an awful lot of yelling...
Players should fear letting their coach down, players should have their ego challenged.
For the biggest game I ever played in our HC who had won like 9/10 conference titles over the previous decade, had us go through our warmups in complete silence. He called it "keeping the cork in the bottle" until we actually kicked off.
We went about our business like a team of silent assassins, ninjas. Cleanly and clearly beat a more physically talented team.
Same in MA leadership where the Masters I studied under made other studio "masters" look like ass clowns.
People who know their shit get listened to, not jackasses who scream and curse.
He also had 3 winning seasons (if I remember accurately).
People are suckers for names.
How about systematically building a program that will win a championship. How about a coach who's obsessed with availing every advantage and management obsessed with finding great players.
But hey, the other day, Stop & Shop was out of Listerine and I had to find something else to gargle with, so I can relate.
"we needed an adult in the room"
But ask yourself if those types of speeches work in week 14 when the team is 4-9
Ron Rivera is a great coach, just like Tom Coughlin was. The difference is that TC came to a team with talent that needed to be harnessed and it's energy directed towards the right direction.
I don't see that here. This team is too far away from competing for Rivera to be effective. It's not the right moment in time-- we don't have the players for the constant negativity speeches to work.
No I don't think its about the type of player.
It wouldn't work here because we don't have the players or the talent for it to work. Rivera is the coach you hire to throw your team over the hill because he's the master motivator and he will get all the players to work in harmony. To me, hes the guy you bring in as the last piece. For instance, I think he could be great for the Cleveland Browns or the Chargers. Teams with talent that are underperforming
We don't have the players to offer for this style to work. That's why we've hired specialists-- guys that may be able to scheme their ways to victory when our talent differential is very low.
the rah rah testosterone negativity stuff doesn't work on a team that is constantly losing.
It's cumulative. This is the type of person I think we need in that lockerroom right now.
And I think it's going to happen. So you can take all the shots you want at it, guess we'll see what happens.
It's ok, Britt. You got all fired up and had those goosebumps and were ready to run through your computer monitor.
And then you found out that the Panthers got their asses kicked after that speech. So now it's cumulative?
Look I get it, you think it's going to happen, and you've been right on what the Giants will do more often than not recently. I'm not sure why that immediately becomes a rah-rah campaign for you, it's a little weird that you immediately latch onto what you think is going to happen and start rooting like hell for it out of nowhere, but whatever - your track record lately has been accurate.
But that only tells me two things: 1) that the Giants almost always do the most obvious thing, and 2) your suggestions/assumptions about what they will do still aren't good even if they're correct. In fact, I wish you got it wrong much more often, because everything you've championed and gotten right has failed.
It's cumulative. This is the type of person I think we need in that lockerroom right now.
And I think it's going to happen. So you can take all the shots you want at it, guess we'll see what happens.
Of course Rivera is the odds on favorite to be HC. The Giants going with an incredibly familiar character to someone in the brass is about as easy to guess as the sun rising.
And then that character, while being a completely fine dude, not being able to overcome the deeply engrained issues in the organization is equally easy to predict.
No, I want to hire the overall package. The record, the demeanor, all of it. The whole package.
You guys like to focus with laser like precision on whatever the one thing being presented is and tear it apart.
The guy was 2x AP Coach of the year and took his team to the Superbowl with a 15-1 record. That's not good enough for you. Okay. Whatever. We disagree on the level of job he did there.
Weren't people calling him a thug and low class and a terrible person that was bringing shame to the NFL for allowing his players to act like that?
Maybe I'm wrong but I seem to remember some outrage. Flame on
No, I want to hire the overall package. The record, the demeanor, all of it. The whole package.
You guys like to focus with laser like precision on whatever the one thing being presented is and tear it apart.
The guy was 2x AP Coach of the year and took his team to the Superbowl with a 15-1 record. That's not good enough for you. Okay. Whatever. We disagree on the level of job he did there.
Look, it's not that. I just don't trust anything the Giants do anymore until they prove that their decision making process has improved. And until that happens, I'm not especially thrilled with how often you get your predictions right, either!
My bigger issue is how you can go from indifferent to absolutely smitten in an instant. From the moment Rivera became available, you have been gushing over him like a teenage schoolgirl with her first crush. It's one thing to feel like it's inevitable, and it's fine to think that it's a match that makes sense. But you're acting like Rivera is the coach you've wanted here your whole life and just didn't know it.
I'm not sure what the angle there is, but something about that immediate adoration/adulation seems odd to me.
Quote:
on that thread was "you want to hire the man based on one press conference?"
No, I want to hire the overall package. The record, the demeanor, all of it. The whole package.
You guys like to focus with laser like precision on whatever the one thing being presented is and tear it apart.
The guy was 2x AP Coach of the year and took his team to the Superbowl with a 15-1 record. That's not good enough for you. Okay. Whatever. We disagree on the level of job he did there.
Look, it's not that. I just don't trust anything the Giants do anymore until they prove that their decision making process has improved. And until that happens, I'm not especially thrilled with how often you get your predictions right, either!
My bigger issue is how you can go from indifferent to absolutely smitten in an instant. From the moment Rivera became available, you have been gushing over him like a teenage schoolgirl with her first crush. It's one thing to feel like it's inevitable, and it's fine to think that it's a match that makes sense. But you're acting like Rivera is the coach you've wanted here your whole life and just didn't know it.
I'm not sure what the angle there is, but something about that immediate adoration/adulation seems odd to me.
This isn't a prediction. It's something I WANT! I will be disappointed if it doesn't happen, not because I'm wrong, but because it didn't happen.
Here's the thing... I didn't expect a coach of, what I believe to be, Rivera's caliber to come loose. I thought Jason Garrett would be the best available veteran head coach. And that's what I believe we need, a veteran head coach.
Furthermore, the timing and the Gettleman relationship couldn't be better for this. I know you hate Gettleman. I don't, so you have to remember I'm not coming at it fro an angle of hating Gettleman like you are. I do believe Shurmur is a complete bust and am ready to turn the page there.
I believe, like you guys, that there needs to be a symbiotic relationship between the GM and Coach. You guys just want the young, up and coming, new version of that. I want the veteran combo. Love it or hate it, Gettleman and Rivera had a good run together in Carolina that yielded 3 division titles, a Superbowl appearance, and made Rivera 2x Coach of the year and Gettleman the Executive of the Year award one of those years. That's impressive to me, and I'd like to see that recreated here.
I want Rivera as a fan of the Giants, I don't care if I'm right or not, but that hire is one that would get me excited as a fan again.
It's really that simple.
I'm over the moon with the prospect of that scenario being a possibility. Over the moon.
If Rivera is qualified and given the mandate to tell Gettleman to get his shine box, and at the same time tell Mara and Tisch to stay in their lane, that'd be a good start.
Because this nightmare isn't just better coaching away from being championship caliber.
Is it going to be as awesome as the Eli Revenge Tour was?
Rivera will be here precisely because Gettleman will be.
The Giants are playing Go Fish when the league is playing poker.
Does DG survive another 4-12 year? Or do we need to get to 6-10? It's probably not that clear cut, obviously.
Between 2008-2017, the Browns threw in a 7-9 season, for example.
Does DG survive another 4-12 year? Or do we need to get to 6-10? It's probably not that clear cut, obviously.
My skepticism is probably creeping in, but I suspect the Giants won't do much by way of an evaluation of the program, and will give Gettleman the green light to make the coaching decision.
I suspect if Gettleman and Rivera worked well together, and the money is equal Rivera will end up in NY.
The Giants favor consistency in management. Gettleman has the very bad job Reese did, the shadow of Manning, and the promise of Jones as mitigating factors.
We'll then be treated to more excuses on how the rebuild really just started in 2020, that the ghost of Reese made Gettleman make all the mistakes, and how Rivera just isn't an adult, he's a grandpa.
So of the likely team's with openings, Rivera's (or Rhule's) decision will probably come down to do I think I have a better chance of winning with Foles or Minshew and the Jags roster or the Giants? Or if Cleveland cans Kitchens, would I rather coach Mayfield or Jones?
Carolina has an interesting situation bc of the new owner but it seems like they will probably go out of the box a little and maybe spend a ton of money on a young guy like Lincoln Riley or something. But that coach will need to evaluate the Cam Newton situation or if they are finding their guy.
I'd expect Washington and Haskins to be a less appealing situation for a lot of reasons even though Snyder could just write a blank check.
His FA has been a failure
His draft classes are mixed
His coaching staff a failure
Maybe the bar has been set so low by Reese (Apple and FLowers) that even this shitty track record is deemed as a good job?
His FA has been a failure
His draft classes are mixed
His coaching staff a failure
Maybe the bar has been set so low by Reese (Apple and FLowers) that even this shitty track record is deemed as a good job?
Shurmur is the only head coach Gettleman has hired I believe.
I'd love to know what assessment and improvement in the head coach evaluation process ownership has required of Gettleman this time around.
I bet saying "fucking" every other word to this grouping of players is the difference between where they are now, and being "fucking" great!
I could see Mara changing the structure going forward because lord knows his process has been a disaster (I highly doubt EA will be involved again) and hopefully Tisch will be able to push him to being willing to be more flexible in accommodating a new coaches demands for more control. I don't see him offloading the hiring decision to someone else though. So for at least this one I think it's Mara once again with input from DG, Tisch, and whoever else.
Rhule and Rivera are the 2 guys who I'd feel pretty confident will be in the mix at this point, and in a scenario like that DG may have a strong opinion either way but despite that I believe it will be Mara making the call.
Belicheck is not like this.
So the answer is, no real correlation between this and a good HC.
However, I know there is a good chance that won’t happen. Gettleman took on massive dead cap money this year & drafted Daniel Jones at #6 last April. Changing course 9 months later is unlikely.
I believe a huge part of our problem the last 6 years has been a lack of harmony between GM & HC. I don’t think Reese & Coughlin were on the same page. It never made sense to me that Shurmur was the guy after hearing Gettleman describe defensive minded head coaches. Gettleman doesn’t feel like a offensive specialist HC type GM. I don’t think it’s a good fit. I believe Gettleman wanted Patricia.
I do think Gettleman-Rivera would fit the best in terms of GM/HC philosophy, the best in a long term with this franchise. If Gettleman will be retained which I think is probably the case, I think pairing Rivera with him makes the most sense.
Some good points here Sean. Rivera seems to check a lot of boxes. Wonder if they'd try to bring Garrett in as OC vs. hiring Turner.
Garrett is likely not a hot commodity at HC at his point after the Cowboys self destruction.
Would love Marinelli as a DC but don't know if he would prefer to work under a more offensive minded head coach (less control, more micromanagement).
Some combo of:
HC Rivera
OC Turner, Garrett,Gruden,Kubiak (I like him the best)
DC Marinelli
OL Callahan
ST Keep McGaughey
Worlds better than current
Belicheck is not like this.
So the answer is, no real correlation between this and a good HC.
Parcells said TC was the most like him. Belichik certainly has taken on a lot of Parcells mannerisms.
Even Sean Payton's wife calls him Parcells 2.0.