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Company-man Banks now openly lighting up Bettcher

Giantz_comeback : 12/7/2019 12:15 am
“if the team cannot stop the same plays (crossing routes) in 2 seasons is it scheme or players? If teams continue to target Haley and you give no help is it scheme or players? Same things=same results.”

“The issue for me is how talent is developed within the scheme and how a scheme adapts to its talent.. i currently see no cohesion, a lack of execution in basic zone concepts, glaring holes in man concepts, successful plays against a defense that fails to adjust.. my thoughts...”

“good talent without a play to maximize is a waste. Bad habits are formed when emphasis is not on a sound fundamental foundation. Too many explosive plays for me to say this is a sound scheme.. too many individual breakdowns to say fundamentals are emphasized..”

This is really shaping up to be moving on from Shurmur and Bettcher. But we haven't heard a peep about DG from the company men. DG's rebuild will likely continue with hopefully better coaches to put the players in better position to succeed.



Banks on Bettcher - ( New Window )
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RE: The coaching is terrible  
Eric on Li : 12/7/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14705914 MookGiants said:
Quote:
but the roster defensively is the worst in the entire league. The coaches need to go but the bigger issue is the GM. if he doesn't go nothing is going to change.


Have you seen the Miami Dolphins depth chart lately? It includes our old friend John Jenkins as a starter along with mostly others who have been on the waiver wire within the last 6 months. They are trying to tank and they are somehow more competitive than this group.
RE: A “company man” would  
RDJR : 12/7/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14705939 joeinpa said:
Quote:
Not be pointing blame to a coaching staff. Carl Banks has given fair and objective analysis of the Giants for years, IMO.

I agree with his analysis. Belichick s mantra: Maximize our strength protect our weaknesses, minimize their strength attack their weakness.

Keeping Haley exposed play after play is one example that the Giants do not protect their weakness very well.


Really? Of course he’s a company man. He’s the radio analyst for the NYG. He’s paid by the franchise he was drafted and played with. Not a criticism really. It’s what one would expect. Digest his opinions with that in mind, that’s all.
RE: RE: A “company man” would  
BigBlueShock : 12/7/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14706129 RDJR said:
Quote:
In comment 14705939 joeinpa said:


Quote:


Not be pointing blame to a coaching staff. Carl Banks has given fair and objective analysis of the Giants for years, IMO.

I agree with his analysis. Belichick s mantra: Maximize our strength protect our weaknesses, minimize their strength attack their weakness.

Keeping Haley exposed play after play is one example that the Giants do not protect their weakness very well.



Really? Of course he’s a company man. He’s the radio analyst for the NYG. He’s paid by the franchise he was drafted and played with. Not a criticism really. It’s what one would expect. Digest his opinions with that in mind, that’s all.

We have posters on here saying they’ve lost respect for Banks because he doesn’t criticize the team. Aside from the fact that’s dead wrong, like you said, he works for the damn team. He should go scorched earth on his employer? I guess BBIers regularly walk into the office and slam their bosses based on their expectations here
...  
christian : 12/7/2019 11:40 am : link
Banks regularly criticizes the team as the year goes on, but come offseason he'll be back to patting every move they make on the butt.

If you want to see some very bizarre behavior, get a load of Banks on Twitter during the offseason when fans are critical of the Giants.

It's a tradition like no other.

RE: Complicated defensive scheme  
Thankyoueli : 12/7/2019 11:41 am : link
In comment 14706030 Rjanyg said:
Quote:
With 4-5 rookies in the field equals disaster.

This scheme worked well in AZ with veterans everywhere including Honey Badger, Peterson and Chandler Jones. We don’t have those players.

I will say I like the front and the depth there. The young DB should improve.

This team needs to find a pass rush yesterday. That will be priority 1 next year.


This scheme does not seem highly complicated to me. Lot of cover 1 man with off coverage. Which requires fast corners who can defend the outer 3rds with no safety help, and a rangey centerfielder. We have none of which lmao

Which made the Baker pick ESPECIALLY confusing for me, when Greedy Williams was on the board who would be PERFECT for that kinda scheme. But na, go with the short and slow guy who's gonna get dusted by any quick receivers. Oh, and also happened to just be an inferior talent in every aspect.

But I digress, one thing I will put on coaching is there's zero cohesiveness in zone coverage. Our DBs have no idea when to pass their man up or carry him over. Though I will say part of that is a lack of instincts amongst the players. People can talk all they want about the investments in the secondary but.. it still requires more unfortunately. The one thing I will give credit to Gettleman for is unlike Reese he's quick to acknowledge his mistakes and work to fix them rather than just letting it ride. I expect work done here in FA (whether it be Byron Jones/Justin Simmons etc)
RE: I've lost whatever respect I had for Papa and Banks  
Giantz_comeback : 12/7/2019 11:43 am : link
In comment 14706125 jcn56 said:
Quote:
I'm sure they both know their stuff, but they're company men and will hold the company line 100%. I don't expect them to say a stray word about the Maras, but the way they've completely glossed over the holes in this roster is shameful.

A few weeks ago it was apparent the internal objective was to bury the coaching staff, and it has been obvious with every word coming out of their mouths. And that's coming from a guy who hasn't liked the coaches from day 1.


Right or wrong the direction was a total tear down 2 years ago. That takes time. However we should be better than 2-10 at this stage and the way we have been losing games certainly looks to be more an indictment of coaching than DG.

No one can objectively look at a defense with only veteran CB  
jcn56 : 12/7/2019 11:51 am : link
and a bunch of unproven or has been players in the secondary, a single pass rusher on a prove-it deal, and no linebackers to speak of - and "light up" the DC without mentioning how awful the talent base is.

If you want to play the 'well, they're rebuilding, it takes time' card, fine - but that also absolves the DC.

Bettcher did himself a real disservice signing up with the Giants, this awful roster is going to kill his career.
RE: No one can objectively look at a defense with only veteran CB  
Giantz_comeback : 12/7/2019 11:53 am : link
In comment 14706150 jcn56 said:
Quote:
and a bunch of unproven or has been players in the secondary, a single pass rusher on a prove-it deal, and no linebackers to speak of - and "light up" the DC without mentioning how awful the talent base is.

If you want to play the 'well, they're rebuilding, it takes time' card, fine - but that also absolves the DC.

Bettcher did himself a real disservice signing up with the Giants, this awful roster is going to kill his career.


Repeatedly being beat the same way on 3rd and long shows a lack of ability to adjust. Its happened all year. Its much more than talent.
RE: RE: No one can objectively look at a defense with only veteran CB  
christian : 12/7/2019 12:00 pm : link
In comment 14706152 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
In comment 14706150 jcn56 said:


Quote:


and a bunch of unproven or has been players in the secondary, a single pass rusher on a prove-it deal, and no linebackers to speak of - and "light up" the DC without mentioning how awful the talent base is.

If you want to play the 'well, they're rebuilding, it takes time' card, fine - but that also absolves the DC.

Bettcher did himself a real disservice signing up with the Giants, this awful roster is going to kill his career.



Repeatedly being beat the same way on 3rd and long shows a lack of ability to adjust. Its happened all year. Its much more than talent.


It's likely equally both. You don't get a unit hovering at worst in the league without bad coaching and poor talent.

There's not a coach on the planet that will walk in and fix the issues at line backer, corner and safety.
Bettcher hasn't proven to be any star  
HomerJones45 : 12/7/2019 12:02 pm : link
but there is no magical system that is going to have these guys play better. You have one reliable corner, one d-lineman, no linebackers save for one who can rush the passer a little, and a rookie nose tackle. That's what you have. The rest is rookies and dreck and no one really knows if the rookies are any good.
The Giants won two Super Bowls recently  
jcn56 : 12/7/2019 12:08 pm : link
with the same formula - rush the passer.

Not a lot of talent at LB - but enough to cover, and plenty of guys to get after the QB.

There's only one guy on this roster who can rush the QB, and at best he's above average. Account for him, and you can basically do whatever you want to the Giants.

I don't think Bettcher is any great shakes - but he's certainly not this bad. You've seen what he can do when he as some talent. This one falls squarely on the most poorly constructed defensive roster in the NFL.
I gotta say I loved betch  
idiotsavant : 12/7/2019 12:10 pm : link
In concept . And am still wondering about the dbacks coaching unit quality .

And wondering if the staff should include dbacks head, corners and safeties separately and more experienced ones. And the roster is very weak at lb and at FS is non existent .

That said, I hate the 2-4-5

and obviously banks is 2000 miles ahead of all of us with regard to football .

Similar to on offense:

Questions were raised here (mittenedman) about a rational line of authority, even down to unit or xs and os decisions that need to be answered. But, indeed, if it is on him it's on him.
RE: RE: RE: No one can objectively look at a defense with only veteran CB  
Giantz_comeback : 12/7/2019 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14706155 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14706152 Giantz_comeback said:


Quote:


In comment 14706150 jcn56 said:


Quote:


and a bunch of unproven or has been players in the secondary, a single pass rusher on a prove-it deal, and no linebackers to speak of - and "light up" the DC without mentioning how awful the talent base is.

If you want to play the 'well, they're rebuilding, it takes time' card, fine - but that also absolves the DC.

Bettcher did himself a real disservice signing up with the Giants, this awful roster is going to kill his career.



Repeatedly being beat the same way on 3rd and long shows a lack of ability to adjust. Its happened all year. Its much more than talent.



It's likely equally both. You don't get a unit hovering at worst in the league without bad coaching and poor talent.

There's not a coach on the planet that will walk in and fix the issues at line backer, corner and safety.


Talent on D is not perfect but it certainly isn't as bad as they've played.

It's an almost impossible combination  
idiotsavant : 12/7/2019 12:19 pm : link
Though, when you pair zero actual free safeties (bathea too old and slow) with 4 rookie corners and ilbs that cannot pass defend.

That's a very particular mess when it comes to pass D.


Still hate the 2-4-5 though
Says who?  
jcn56 : 12/7/2019 12:21 pm : link
These players are almost all unknowns or has beens - why can anyone say with any confidence than they're better than they've played?
RE: RE: I've lost whatever respect I had for Papa and Banks  
HomerJones45 : 12/7/2019 12:32 pm : link
In comment 14706142 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
In comment 14706125 jcn56 said:


Quote:


I'm sure they both know their stuff, but they're company men and will hold the company line 100%. I don't expect them to say a stray word about the Maras, but the way they've completely glossed over the holes in this roster is shameful.

A few weeks ago it was apparent the internal objective was to bury the coaching staff, and it has been obvious with every word coming out of their mouths. And that's coming from a guy who hasn't liked the coaches from day 1.



Right or wrong the direction was a total tear down 2 years ago. That takes time. However we should be better than 2-10 at this stage and the way we have been losing games certainly looks to be more an indictment of coaching than DG.
why do you assume we should be better than 2-10 in the worst division in pro football. This is why the "total tear down" was an iffy proposition to begin with and one most teams don't do. We certainly didn't do it in 1979, 1996 or 2004. What makes anyone think this was a wise idea to begin with?

"it takes time" because that is the option chosen, and Gettleman had better get on the stick. If you 'tear it all down' you need to start coming up with players, a lot of players, in a short time. Finding two or three a year only guarantees a forever rebuild
You are what your record says you are  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/7/2019 12:34 pm : link
Stop using coaching as a scapegoat. The coaching sucks and the roster is poorly constructed.
RE: I've lost whatever respect I had for Papa and Banks  
joeinpa : 12/7/2019 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14706125 jcn56 said:
Quote:
I'm sure they both know their stuff, but they're company men and will hold the company line 100%. I don't expect them to say a stray word about the Maras, but the way they've completely glossed over the holes in this roster is shameful.

A few weeks ago it was apparent the internal objective was to bury the coaching staff, and it has been obvious with every word coming out of their mouths. And that's coming from a guy who hasn't liked the coaches from day 1.


56, are you suggesting a directive came from above to beginning creating a narrative that it s coaching? I would find that difficult to believe.

I don’t do very much social media so maybe you guys are reading things from Banks and Papa I don t see.

But I listen to them often and they have been consistently critical of the Giants over the years when warranted, not just now.
Papa's an A+ play by play guy  
Ned In Atlanta : 12/7/2019 12:47 pm : link
But he's a Mara/giants shill. I understand he's an employee of the team but i still find it to be very annoying
Looking over 9ers  
idiotsavant : 12/7/2019 1:31 pm : link
Impressive list of assistant coaches. On D, Joe Woods, 16 years coaching dbacks and lots of top 5s this and that and probowlers from his units.

On both sides 9ers seem to have a well thought out bunch of assistant and unit coaches .

Additionally at OL and RBs units. And lots of ',coordinators ' at unit lebel as well as coaches.
Level obviously  
idiotsavant : 12/7/2019 1:32 pm : link
.
RE: RE: RE: RE: No one can objectively look at a defense with only veteran CB  
christian : 12/7/2019 1:42 pm : link
In comment 14706162 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
In comment 14706155 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14706152 Giantz_comeback said:


Quote:


In comment 14706150 jcn56 said:


Quote:


and a bunch of unproven or has been players in the secondary, a single pass rusher on a prove-it deal, and no linebackers to speak of - and "light up" the DC without mentioning how awful the talent base is.

If you want to play the 'well, they're rebuilding, it takes time' card, fine - but that also absolves the DC.

Bettcher did himself a real disservice signing up with the Giants, this awful roster is going to kill his career.



Repeatedly being beat the same way on 3rd and long shows a lack of ability to adjust. Its happened all year. Its much more than talent.



It's likely equally both. You don't get a unit hovering at worst in the league without bad coaching and poor talent.

There's not a coach on the planet that will walk in and fix the issues at line backer, corner and safety.



Talent on D is not perfect but it certainly isn't as bad as they've played.


Why was Bettcher adequate to good in AZ, and then comes to the Giants and everything falls to pieces?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: No one can objectively look at a defense with only veteran CB  
Jay on the Island : 12/7/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14706239 christian said:
Quote:

Why was Bettcher adequate to good in AZ, and then comes to the Giants and everything falls to pieces?

As we've seen with Steve Spagnuolo, a great pass rush can make a DC look very good. Bettcher had Chandler Jones and Markus Golden as his pass rushers plus a star CB in Peterson.
Why do so many people seem to think its impossible  
Thankyoueli : 12/7/2019 2:33 pm : link
To routinely have your playcall countered, AND have bad players??

Weird weird logic... this notion that it has to be one or the other makes less than zero sense.
I’ve followed Banks on Twitter for a while  
Biteymax22 : 12/7/2019 2:52 pm : link
And have even interacted with him on more than one occasion. Despite the fact he works for the Giants, nothing about him strikes me as being afraid to give his opinion when needed.

Yes he’s defended the roster in the past, but I think a former player more than likely will give the benefit of the doubt to the players over the coaches. He’s been critical of this coaching staff for quite a while, its just becoming more and more obvious as things get worse and worse. I would not call him a company man.
RE: RE: I've lost whatever respect I had for Papa and Banks  
jcn56 : 12/7/2019 3:04 pm : link
In comment 14706199 joeinpa said:
Quote:
In comment 14706125 jcn56 said:


Quote:


I'm sure they both know their stuff, but they're company men and will hold the company line 100%. I don't expect them to say a stray word about the Maras, but the way they've completely glossed over the holes in this roster is shameful.

A few weeks ago it was apparent the internal objective was to bury the coaching staff, and it has been obvious with every word coming out of their mouths. And that's coming from a guy who hasn't liked the coaches from day 1.



56, are you suggesting a directive came from above to beginning creating a narrative that it s coaching? I would find that difficult to believe.

I don’t do very much social media so maybe you guys are reading things from Banks and Papa I don t see.

But I listen to them often and they have been consistently critical of the Giants over the years when warranted, not just now.


If you listen to Banks' tone and statements from earlier this season, you see a marked departure sometime about a few weeks ago. Before that, it was partly on the players, partly on Shurmur - and he took caution to mention at every opportunity that Shurmur was both a friend and a former teammate.

The criticism of the team ramped up in the past 2-3 weeks - ironically, coinciding with the rumors that started floating around that Shurmur was a goner.

I don't doubt for a second that the Giants have started an internal campaign to distance themselves publicly from Shurmur and make him the primary scapegoat. It's not like we haven't seen it before, like the fallout that followed Eli's benching or the damage control after Plax shot himself. It wasn't more than a few weeks later that we started hearing stories about how Plax was a malcontent who missed meetings.

It's the football equivalent of state sponsored media.

It's irrelevant if the team has OK'd their media employees...  
Torrag : 12/7/2019 3:20 pm : link
to do a hit job on the coaching staff in a preemptive move to firing them. They deserve it so who cares?

As far as the roster I see young talent that the vast majority of football pundits and evaluators liked in the Draft not being properly coached or deployed.

When you're rebuilding and transitioning to a young core group player development is the most important aspect of the franchises success. Progress is either slow(Baker), non existent(Hernandez) or in certain cases regressing(Hill).

For this reason alone I'd fire all the coaches and we all know there are numerous valid reasons aside from this.
I really don't think Banks  
idiotsavant : 12/7/2019 3:24 pm : link
Is that kind of toady. I think he calls it as he sees it.

What we don't know is:

Who exactly hires the unit level.and assistant coaches and what is the process?

Are they any good or do they have proper exact type of or level of experience (DBs and OL unit coaches and assistants ) . Someone mentioned the stats guy. Same w this.

Do they execute as coach or DC directs it . Or are they using a "book of concepts" (mittendman I think alluded ) and ergo -not- following coach or DC's directives?

I don't mean any of this to excuse the HC DC or OC, but assistants and units level seems a hodge podge and in some cases missing key elements or experience levels.
RE: It's irrelevant if the team has OK'd their media employees...  
jcn56 : 12/7/2019 3:30 pm : link
In comment 14706346 Torrag said:
Quote:
to do a hit job on the coaching staff in a preemptive move to firing them. They deserve it so who cares?

As far as the roster I see young talent that the vast majority of football pundits and evaluators liked in the Draft not being properly coached or deployed.

When you're rebuilding and transitioning to a young core group player development is the most important aspect of the franchises success. Progress is either slow(Baker), non existent(Hernandez) or in certain cases regressing(Hill).

For this reason alone I'd fire all the coaches and we all know there are numerous valid reasons aside from this.


Well there's a steaming load of bullshit if there ever was one - the pundits didn't exactly love the Giants draft - enough so that people were up in arms on BBI about it. Now, the vast majority were fans?

The transition to the Redskins is complete. The FO is completely incompetent. The coaches are overmatched and out of their depth. The media teams have been instructed who to target their hits toward. Finally, many - though not all - of the fans have been conditioned to take garbage and actually think it's better than what it seems.

Snyder has to be happy that the Giants have their heads so far up their asses, it takes the pressure off him.
Also  
idiotsavant : 12/7/2019 3:32 pm : link
Number of and structure of unit coaches. Do we have not only less or lower level of experience in coaching down the chain in some units , but actually fewer positions overall ?

It seems like some teams have coordinator organizer types, plus former pro player types, AND old school pro football scheme specialist technique types.

So the technique guys don't get bogged down in schedules and equipment etc.

Additionally , have we sought out technique specialists that match the targeted style of play ?
Listen I personally think DG is doing a decent job...  
Torrag : 12/7/2019 3:34 pm : link
...and see enough that I'd let him go another year...BUT...if the right HC candidate demanded final say on the roster I'd do it and ask Gettelman to accept a change in his role.
I mean  
idiotsavant : 12/7/2019 4:16 pm : link
Look at the experience levels of other teams coaching assistants and even what the titles are.

Pat's have a " Director of Skill development " with almost 30 years coaching at the professional football level . Not at West alcorn state

And on and on.
RE: and  
EricJ : 12/7/2019 5:54 pm : link
In comment 14705922 huygens20 said:
Quote:
why does Gettleman be the one to choose the next HC and by extension coordinators?


Most believe he did not choose Shurmur and that was Mara's decision. So, why would you think Gettleman is making the decision this time?
RE: RE: and  
christian : 12/7/2019 7:19 pm : link
In comment 14706457 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14705922 huygens20 said:


Quote:


why does Gettleman be the one to choose the next HC and by extension coordinators?




Most believe he did not choose Shurmur and that was Mara's decision. So, why would you think Gettleman is making the decision this time?


Coming out of the interview process, seemed like Gettleman was quite involved, and quite happy with the Shurmur pick. He's the one with the infamous "adult" comments.

Now, maybe that is a total sham and Mara dumped Shurmur on him, but I've not read anything to indicate Gettleman wasn't a big part of choosing the head coach.
'the pundits didn't exactly love the Giants draft'  
Torrag : 12/7/2019 7:19 pm : link
False. Player for player they drafted guys with high grades, often at value spots. The issues were with the Jones pick in 2019(which is better received in general now than it was then) and the Barkley RB 'positional value at #2' debate in 2018. But prospect by prospect they got high marks for the guys they took and the rounds they took them in.

Now many of those quality prospects are not developing at a rate they should. When you see that in a widespread sample it's coaching. That's the universal element tying them together. The secondary and OL coaches are doing a particularly terrible job.
RE: 'the pundits didn't exactly love the Giants draft'  
jcn56 : 12/7/2019 7:29 pm : link
In comment 14706516 Torrag said:
Quote:
False. Player for player they drafted guys with high grades, often at value spots. The issues were with the Jones pick in 2019(which is better received in general now than it was then) and the Barkley RB 'positional value at #2' debate in 2018. But prospect by prospect they got high marks for the guys they took and the rounds they took them in.

Now many of those quality prospects are not developing at a rate they should. When you see that in a widespread sample it's coaching. That's the universal element tying them together. The secondary and OL coaches are doing a particularly terrible job.


Of course it's not false - they didn't just dislike the Jones selection. People thought Lawrence went too high (in particular mentioning that was the main return for Beckham), they thought the Giants shouldn't have taken Baker (let alone traded up for him) with Williams still on the board.

But that's the hallmark of the Giants of recent years - buck the trend, get laughed at, talk big about how they know what they're doing, stink, and repeat the process.
'Of course it's not false'  
Torrag : 12/7/2019 7:44 pm : link
It is. Lawrence pick was a good value. Again you're tying the prospect to how he was acquired, the value earned in the OBJ deal, which isn't a factor when analyzing the pick in the context of the Draft position of the player. That's a different discussion and has no bearing on grading the selections on their own merits.

There was widespread debate on who the top CB was and responses varied based on how the teams were expected to utilize them. Baker was considered by many to be the best press man CB available and was absolutely in consideration as the top CB overall by many. In typical fashion our coaches have misutilized him throughout the season hampering his progress. Hell Murphy went before Williams who lasted until #45 overall. Hindsight is 20/20 and noone is surprised a player the Pats drafted is developing fast and playing well. That's the point. It's the coaching.
RE: 'Of course it's not false'  
jcn56 : 12/7/2019 7:51 pm : link
In comment 14706530 Torrag said:
Quote:
It is. Lawrence pick was a good value. Again you're tying the prospect to how he was acquired, the value earned in the OBJ deal, which isn't a factor when analyzing the pick in the context of the Draft position of the player. That's a different discussion and has no bearing on grading the selections on their own merits.

There was widespread debate on who the top CB was and responses varied based on how the teams were expected to utilize them. Baker was considered by many to be the best press man CB available and was absolutely in consideration as the top CB overall by many. In typical fashion our coaches have misutilized him throughout the season hampering his progress. Hell Murphy went before Williams who lasted until #45 overall. Hindsight is 20/20 and noone is surprised a player the Pats drafted is developing fast and playing well. That's the point. It's the coaching.


You're changing gears because you can't support your initial assertion, which was that this was some universally loved draft.

Lawrence was certainly seen by many draftniks as a good interior defender, but lacked pass rush capability. NFL.com had him as an instant starter but not a likely Pro Bowler. Others had him pegged as a late 1st, early 2nd round pick. The Giants took him at 17.

Baker - a lot of the draftniks had as a second rounder.

The bottom line, the draft is a crapshoot, so the draftniks could be wrong. The same way Gettleman could be wrong. The results have been awful, and there's no individual play to suggest any of these guys are hidden gems being stifled by poor coaching.
'you can't support your initial assertion'  
Torrag : 12/7/2019 7:55 pm : link
You have reading comprehension problems. You attempted to counter my post with several examples. I refuted them. The original premise not only stands but is strengthened. It's a debate tactic called building the ladder. Your logical reasoning skills are poor.
RE: The coaching is terrible  
Brick72 : 12/7/2019 8:13 pm : link
In comment 14705914 MookGiants said:
Quote:
but the roster defensively is the worst in the entire league. The coaches need to go but the bigger issue is the GM. if he doesn't go nothing is going to change.

The defensive roster is not the worst in the entire league. This is a young defense that with the right coaching should have been better than this.
RE: RE: The coaching is terrible  
christian : 12/7/2019 8:16 pm : link
In comment 14706546 Brick72 said:
Quote:
In comment 14705914 MookGiants said:


Quote:


but the roster defensively is the worst in the entire league. The coaches need to go but the bigger issue is the GM. if he doesn't go nothing is going to change.


The defensive roster is not the worst in the entire league. This is a young defense that with the right coaching should have been better than this.


Bettcher's defenses were quite a bit better in AZ, do you think he's just mailing it in here?
'do you think he's just mailing it in here?'  
Torrag : 12/7/2019 8:24 pm : link
I freely admit speculation here because I don't follow the 'Cards that closely. Betccher took over a successful established defense there from Bowles when he took the Jets HC job. Maybe he was just the wrong guy to handle all the chaos and youth here.
RE: 'you can't support your initial assertion'  
jcn56 : 12/7/2019 11:16 pm : link
In comment 14706532 Torrag said:
Quote:
You have reading comprehension problems. You attempted to counter my post with several examples. I refuted them. The original premise not only stands but is strengthened. It's a debate tactic called building the ladder. Your logical reasoning skills are poor.


Your original assertion:

Quote:
As far as the roster I see young talent that the vast majority of football pundits and evaluators liked in the Draft not being properly coached or deployed.


You've made zero ground on proving or strengthening that statement in any way. In fact, it's a stupid statement to make because a cursory glance of the post-draft press would prove the contrary. I provided summaries of the 2 of the first round draft picks this year, one of whom is performing miserably, and you've provided, well, nothing but your opinion.

Can't say I'm familiar with building the ladder, but I know what you're doing is commonly referred to as the Gish Gallop. It's clear your logical reasoning is highly flawed, which would be necessary to arrive at the baseless conclusion that this roster should magically have arrived at many more wins than they've managed to date.
jcn  
Torrag : 12/7/2019 11:20 pm : link
Looks like you subscribe to the theory of writing more when you don't have actual content to support your position. You lost this debate 3 hours ago. Give it up.
RE: jcn  
jcn56 : 12/7/2019 11:24 pm : link
In comment 14706696 Torrag said:
Quote:
Looks like you subscribe to the theory of writing more when you don't have actual content to support your position. You lost this debate 3 hours ago. Give it up.


You've declared yourself the winner? That's awesome!

You know which one of the pundits thinks you lost? This guy:

Quote:
Round 1, Pick 17 (No. 17 overall): Dexter Lawrence, DT, Clemson

Andy Benoit's grade: D+

This one is surprising because the Giants did not NEED a defensive tackle. Last year’s third-round pick, B.J. Hill, is a star in the making, and 2017 second-rounder Dalvin Tomlinson is quietly on a similar plane. Those two can play 3-technique (between the guard and tackle) or 5-technique (over the tackle) on base downs, with Lawrence occupying the middle as a nose. But that package will only be usable about 20 snaps a game. A few top edge rushers were still on the board, as were all of the defensive backs. Giants GM Dave Gettleman believes in stocking up on D-linemen, but defensive coordinator James Bettcher, who runs a pressure-heavy scheme, can only play with so many at once. And that pressure-heavy scheme can’t work if New York doesn’t have corners and safeties who can cover one-on-one.


It occurred to this guy a team - especially running a scheme like Bettcher - in a pass-first league - might actually need edge rushers. Go figure!
D+ LOL  
Torrag : 12/7/2019 11:48 pm : link
Do you even watch the Giants games? Dex has played well. Again you miss the point. A guy that grades on need is a simpleton. He also happens to be wrong about it but that's a different argument. You grade and Draft on talent. I rescind my request that you give up. These attempts to dig out of the hole you're in are amusing me.
RE: D+ LOL  
jcn56 : 12/8/2019 12:05 am : link
In comment 14706716 Torrag said:
Quote:
Do you even watch the Giants games? Dex has played well. Again you miss the point. A guy that grades on need is a simpleton. He also happens to be wrong about it but that's a different argument. You grade and Draft on talent. I rescind my request that you give up. These attempts to dig out of the hole you're in are amusing me.


You must not have made captain of that HS debate team.

You're changing the argument - which you made, that said the team has to be more talented because the pundits loved the talent. Any attempt to show how ridiculous that sounds is met with you disagreeing with said pundits.

So, did they think the talent was great or didn't they?

And yes - Lawrence has played well. That's great - for a 17th overall, drafted into a position that already had a couple of players. I guess if there's a good QB at #2 this year the Giants should take him, BPA and all that.
So many fucking excuses  
Go Terps : 12/8/2019 12:11 am : link
Shurmur is the new bogeyman at fault for everything: remove him and everything will be better.

Bullshit.

"There is no limit to a person's ability to rationalize the truth."
Where is all this talent on D?  
TD : 12/8/2019 7:00 am : link
Our Edge and LBs are the worst in the league. We have no FS. Our CBs are Jackrabbit and a bunch of rookies or nobodys. All we have is a solid DL (not the playmaking unit in a 3-4).

We knew this coming into the season - or at least those of us who aren’t cheerleaders for DG/Giants brass did.

Bettcher may suck but so does the talent.
I think it’s correct to view Banks’ comments as a sign that Shurmur  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 9:52 am : link
Is about to be fired.

It’s also possible to view this as yet another example of scapegoating, which at this point seems to be part of the Giants cultural identity. They are serial scapegoaters.

So don’t fall for it: It’s possible to think Shurmur is incompetent but that he is in no way the only one in the organization underperforming. (I think most BBI posters think this.)

It’s possible to think that there is some talent on the defense. And that Lawrence is one of the bright spots on what is a developing defensive line.

It’s possible to think that the youth and inexperience on the D makes utilizing this talent a difficult coaching task.

It’s also possible to think that Bettcher the defensive coaches have been given this difficult task, and that they are not doing well at solving it.

A lot of talking past each other on this thread.

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