“if the team cannot stop the same plays (crossing routes) in 2 seasons is it scheme or players? If teams continue to target Haley and you give no help is it scheme or players? Same things=same results.”
“The issue for me is how talent is developed within the scheme and how a scheme adapts to its talent.. i currently see no cohesion, a lack of execution in basic zone concepts, glaring holes in man concepts, successful plays against a defense that fails to adjust.. my thoughts...”
“good talent without a play to maximize is a waste. Bad habits are formed when emphasis is not on a sound fundamental foundation. Too many explosive plays for me to say this is a sound scheme.. too many individual breakdowns to say fundamentals are emphasized..”
This is really shaping up to be moving on from Shurmur and Bettcher. But we haven't heard a peep about DG from the company men. DG's rebuild will likely continue with hopefully better coaches to put the players in better position to succeed.
Banks on Bettcher - (
New Window )
Have you seen the Miami Dolphins depth chart lately? It includes our old friend John Jenkins as a starter along with mostly others who have been on the waiver wire within the last 6 months. They are trying to tank and they are somehow more competitive than this group.
I agree with his analysis. Belichick s mantra: Maximize our strength protect our weaknesses, minimize their strength attack their weakness.
Keeping Haley exposed play after play is one example that the Giants do not protect their weakness very well.
Really? Of course he’s a company man. He’s the radio analyst for the NYG. He’s paid by the franchise he was drafted and played with. Not a criticism really. It’s what one would expect. Digest his opinions with that in mind, that’s all.
Quote:
Not be pointing blame to a coaching staff. Carl Banks has given fair and objective analysis of the Giants for years, IMO.
I agree with his analysis. Belichick s mantra: Maximize our strength protect our weaknesses, minimize their strength attack their weakness.
Keeping Haley exposed play after play is one example that the Giants do not protect their weakness very well.
Really? Of course he’s a company man. He’s the radio analyst for the NYG. He’s paid by the franchise he was drafted and played with. Not a criticism really. It’s what one would expect. Digest his opinions with that in mind, that’s all.
We have posters on here saying they’ve lost respect for Banks because he doesn’t criticize the team. Aside from the fact that’s dead wrong, like you said, he works for the damn team. He should go scorched earth on his employer? I guess BBIers regularly walk into the office and slam their bosses based on their expectations here
If you want to see some very bizarre behavior, get a load of Banks on Twitter during the offseason when fans are critical of the Giants.
It's a tradition like no other.
This scheme worked well in AZ with veterans everywhere including Honey Badger, Peterson and Chandler Jones. We don’t have those players.
I will say I like the front and the depth there. The young DB should improve.
This team needs to find a pass rush yesterday. That will be priority 1 next year.
This scheme does not seem highly complicated to me. Lot of cover 1 man with off coverage. Which requires fast corners who can defend the outer 3rds with no safety help, and a rangey centerfielder. We have none of which lmao
Which made the Baker pick ESPECIALLY confusing for me, when Greedy Williams was on the board who would be PERFECT for that kinda scheme. But na, go with the short and slow guy who's gonna get dusted by any quick receivers. Oh, and also happened to just be an inferior talent in every aspect.
But I digress, one thing I will put on coaching is there's zero cohesiveness in zone coverage. Our DBs have no idea when to pass their man up or carry him over. Though I will say part of that is a lack of instincts amongst the players. People can talk all they want about the investments in the secondary but.. it still requires more unfortunately. The one thing I will give credit to Gettleman for is unlike Reese he's quick to acknowledge his mistakes and work to fix them rather than just letting it ride. I expect work done here in FA (whether it be Byron Jones/Justin Simmons etc)
A few weeks ago it was apparent the internal objective was to bury the coaching staff, and it has been obvious with every word coming out of their mouths. And that's coming from a guy who hasn't liked the coaches from day 1.
Right or wrong the direction was a total tear down 2 years ago. That takes time. However we should be better than 2-10 at this stage and the way we have been losing games certainly looks to be more an indictment of coaching than DG.
If you want to play the 'well, they're rebuilding, it takes time' card, fine - but that also absolves the DC.
Bettcher did himself a real disservice signing up with the Giants, this awful roster is going to kill his career.
If you want to play the 'well, they're rebuilding, it takes time' card, fine - but that also absolves the DC.
Bettcher did himself a real disservice signing up with the Giants, this awful roster is going to kill his career.
Repeatedly being beat the same way on 3rd and long shows a lack of ability to adjust. Its happened all year. Its much more than talent.
Quote:
and a bunch of unproven or has been players in the secondary, a single pass rusher on a prove-it deal, and no linebackers to speak of - and "light up" the DC without mentioning how awful the talent base is.
If you want to play the 'well, they're rebuilding, it takes time' card, fine - but that also absolves the DC.
Bettcher did himself a real disservice signing up with the Giants, this awful roster is going to kill his career.
Repeatedly being beat the same way on 3rd and long shows a lack of ability to adjust. Its happened all year. Its much more than talent.
It's likely equally both. You don't get a unit hovering at worst in the league without bad coaching and poor talent.
There's not a coach on the planet that will walk in and fix the issues at line backer, corner and safety.
Not a lot of talent at LB - but enough to cover, and plenty of guys to get after the QB.
There's only one guy on this roster who can rush the QB, and at best he's above average. Account for him, and you can basically do whatever you want to the Giants.
I don't think Bettcher is any great shakes - but he's certainly not this bad. You've seen what he can do when he as some talent. This one falls squarely on the most poorly constructed defensive roster in the NFL.
And wondering if the staff should include dbacks head, corners and safeties separately and more experienced ones. And the roster is very weak at lb and at FS is non existent .
That said, I hate the 2-4-5
and obviously banks is 2000 miles ahead of all of us with regard to football .
Similar to on offense:
Questions were raised here (mittenedman) about a rational line of authority, even down to unit or xs and os decisions that need to be answered. But, indeed, if it is on him it's on him.
Quote:
In comment 14706150 jcn56 said:
Quote:
and a bunch of unproven or has been players in the secondary, a single pass rusher on a prove-it deal, and no linebackers to speak of - and "light up" the DC without mentioning how awful the talent base is.
If you want to play the 'well, they're rebuilding, it takes time' card, fine - but that also absolves the DC.
Bettcher did himself a real disservice signing up with the Giants, this awful roster is going to kill his career.
Repeatedly being beat the same way on 3rd and long shows a lack of ability to adjust. Its happened all year. Its much more than talent.
It's likely equally both. You don't get a unit hovering at worst in the league without bad coaching and poor talent.
There's not a coach on the planet that will walk in and fix the issues at line backer, corner and safety.
Talent on D is not perfect but it certainly isn't as bad as they've played.
That's a very particular mess when it comes to pass D.
Still hate the 2-4-5 though
Quote:
I'm sure they both know their stuff, but they're company men and will hold the company line 100%. I don't expect them to say a stray word about the Maras, but the way they've completely glossed over the holes in this roster is shameful.
A few weeks ago it was apparent the internal objective was to bury the coaching staff, and it has been obvious with every word coming out of their mouths. And that's coming from a guy who hasn't liked the coaches from day 1.
Right or wrong the direction was a total tear down 2 years ago. That takes time. However we should be better than 2-10 at this stage and the way we have been losing games certainly looks to be more an indictment of coaching than DG.
"it takes time" because that is the option chosen, and Gettleman had better get on the stick. If you 'tear it all down' you need to start coming up with players, a lot of players, in a short time. Finding two or three a year only guarantees a forever rebuild
A few weeks ago it was apparent the internal objective was to bury the coaching staff, and it has been obvious with every word coming out of their mouths. And that's coming from a guy who hasn't liked the coaches from day 1.
56, are you suggesting a directive came from above to beginning creating a narrative that it s coaching? I would find that difficult to believe.
I don’t do very much social media so maybe you guys are reading things from Banks and Papa I don t see.
But I listen to them often and they have been consistently critical of the Giants over the years when warranted, not just now.
On both sides 9ers seem to have a well thought out bunch of assistant and unit coaches .
Additionally at OL and RBs units. And lots of ',coordinators ' at unit lebel as well as coaches.
Quote:
In comment 14706152 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
In comment 14706150 jcn56 said:
Quote:
and a bunch of unproven or has been players in the secondary, a single pass rusher on a prove-it deal, and no linebackers to speak of - and "light up" the DC without mentioning how awful the talent base is.
If you want to play the 'well, they're rebuilding, it takes time' card, fine - but that also absolves the DC.
Bettcher did himself a real disservice signing up with the Giants, this awful roster is going to kill his career.
Repeatedly being beat the same way on 3rd and long shows a lack of ability to adjust. Its happened all year. Its much more than talent.
It's likely equally both. You don't get a unit hovering at worst in the league without bad coaching and poor talent.
There's not a coach on the planet that will walk in and fix the issues at line backer, corner and safety.
Talent on D is not perfect but it certainly isn't as bad as they've played.
Why was Bettcher adequate to good in AZ, and then comes to the Giants and everything falls to pieces?
Why was Bettcher adequate to good in AZ, and then comes to the Giants and everything falls to pieces?
As we've seen with Steve Spagnuolo, a great pass rush can make a DC look very good. Bettcher had Chandler Jones and Markus Golden as his pass rushers plus a star CB in Peterson.
Weird weird logic... this notion that it has to be one or the other makes less than zero sense.
Yes he’s defended the roster in the past, but I think a former player more than likely will give the benefit of the doubt to the players over the coaches. He’s been critical of this coaching staff for quite a while, its just becoming more and more obvious as things get worse and worse. I would not call him a company man.
Quote:
I'm sure they both know their stuff, but they're company men and will hold the company line 100%. I don't expect them to say a stray word about the Maras, but the way they've completely glossed over the holes in this roster is shameful.
A few weeks ago it was apparent the internal objective was to bury the coaching staff, and it has been obvious with every word coming out of their mouths. And that's coming from a guy who hasn't liked the coaches from day 1.
56, are you suggesting a directive came from above to beginning creating a narrative that it s coaching? I would find that difficult to believe.
I don’t do very much social media so maybe you guys are reading things from Banks and Papa I don t see.
But I listen to them often and they have been consistently critical of the Giants over the years when warranted, not just now.
If you listen to Banks' tone and statements from earlier this season, you see a marked departure sometime about a few weeks ago. Before that, it was partly on the players, partly on Shurmur - and he took caution to mention at every opportunity that Shurmur was both a friend and a former teammate.
The criticism of the team ramped up in the past 2-3 weeks - ironically, coinciding with the rumors that started floating around that Shurmur was a goner.
I don't doubt for a second that the Giants have started an internal campaign to distance themselves publicly from Shurmur and make him the primary scapegoat. It's not like we haven't seen it before, like the fallout that followed Eli's benching or the damage control after Plax shot himself. It wasn't more than a few weeks later that we started hearing stories about how Plax was a malcontent who missed meetings.
It's the football equivalent of state sponsored media.
As far as the roster I see young talent that the vast majority of football pundits and evaluators liked in the Draft not being properly coached or deployed.
When you're rebuilding and transitioning to a young core group player development is the most important aspect of the franchises success. Progress is either slow(Baker), non existent(Hernandez) or in certain cases regressing(Hill).
For this reason alone I'd fire all the coaches and we all know there are numerous valid reasons aside from this.
What we don't know is:
Who exactly hires the unit level.and assistant coaches and what is the process?
Are they any good or do they have proper exact type of or level of experience (DBs and OL unit coaches and assistants ) . Someone mentioned the stats guy. Same w this.
Do they execute as coach or DC directs it . Or are they using a "book of concepts" (mittendman I think alluded ) and ergo -not- following coach or DC's directives?
I don't mean any of this to excuse the HC DC or OC, but assistants and units level seems a hodge podge and in some cases missing key elements or experience levels.
As far as the roster I see young talent that the vast majority of football pundits and evaluators liked in the Draft not being properly coached or deployed.
When you're rebuilding and transitioning to a young core group player development is the most important aspect of the franchises success. Progress is either slow(Baker), non existent(Hernandez) or in certain cases regressing(Hill).
For this reason alone I'd fire all the coaches and we all know there are numerous valid reasons aside from this.
Well there's a steaming load of bullshit if there ever was one - the pundits didn't exactly love the Giants draft - enough so that people were up in arms on BBI about it. Now, the vast majority were fans?
The transition to the Redskins is complete. The FO is completely incompetent. The coaches are overmatched and out of their depth. The media teams have been instructed who to target their hits toward. Finally, many - though not all - of the fans have been conditioned to take garbage and actually think it's better than what it seems.
Snyder has to be happy that the Giants have their heads so far up their asses, it takes the pressure off him.
It seems like some teams have coordinator organizer types, plus former pro player types, AND old school pro football scheme specialist technique types.
So the technique guys don't get bogged down in schedules and equipment etc.
Additionally , have we sought out technique specialists that match the targeted style of play ?
Pat's have a " Director of Skill development " with almost 30 years coaching at the professional football level . Not at West alcorn state
And on and on.
Most believe he did not choose Shurmur and that was Mara's decision. So, why would you think Gettleman is making the decision this time?
Quote:
why does Gettleman be the one to choose the next HC and by extension coordinators?
Most believe he did not choose Shurmur and that was Mara's decision. So, why would you think Gettleman is making the decision this time?
Coming out of the interview process, seemed like Gettleman was quite involved, and quite happy with the Shurmur pick. He's the one with the infamous "adult" comments.
Now, maybe that is a total sham and Mara dumped Shurmur on him, but I've not read anything to indicate Gettleman wasn't a big part of choosing the head coach.
Now many of those quality prospects are not developing at a rate they should. When you see that in a widespread sample it's coaching. That's the universal element tying them together. The secondary and OL coaches are doing a particularly terrible job.
Now many of those quality prospects are not developing at a rate they should. When you see that in a widespread sample it's coaching. That's the universal element tying them together. The secondary and OL coaches are doing a particularly terrible job.
Of course it's not false - they didn't just dislike the Jones selection. People thought Lawrence went too high (in particular mentioning that was the main return for Beckham), they thought the Giants shouldn't have taken Baker (let alone traded up for him) with Williams still on the board.
But that's the hallmark of the Giants of recent years - buck the trend, get laughed at, talk big about how they know what they're doing, stink, and repeat the process.
There was widespread debate on who the top CB was and responses varied based on how the teams were expected to utilize them. Baker was considered by many to be the best press man CB available and was absolutely in consideration as the top CB overall by many. In typical fashion our coaches have misutilized him throughout the season hampering his progress. Hell Murphy went before Williams who lasted until #45 overall. Hindsight is 20/20 and noone is surprised a player the Pats drafted is developing fast and playing well. That's the point. It's the coaching.
There was widespread debate on who the top CB was and responses varied based on how the teams were expected to utilize them. Baker was considered by many to be the best press man CB available and was absolutely in consideration as the top CB overall by many. In typical fashion our coaches have misutilized him throughout the season hampering his progress. Hell Murphy went before Williams who lasted until #45 overall. Hindsight is 20/20 and noone is surprised a player the Pats drafted is developing fast and playing well. That's the point. It's the coaching.
You're changing gears because you can't support your initial assertion, which was that this was some universally loved draft.
Lawrence was certainly seen by many draftniks as a good interior defender, but lacked pass rush capability. NFL.com had him as an instant starter but not a likely Pro Bowler. Others had him pegged as a late 1st, early 2nd round pick. The Giants took him at 17.
Baker - a lot of the draftniks had as a second rounder.
The bottom line, the draft is a crapshoot, so the draftniks could be wrong. The same way Gettleman could be wrong. The results have been awful, and there's no individual play to suggest any of these guys are hidden gems being stifled by poor coaching.
The defensive roster is not the worst in the entire league. This is a young defense that with the right coaching should have been better than this.
Quote:
but the roster defensively is the worst in the entire league. The coaches need to go but the bigger issue is the GM. if he doesn't go nothing is going to change.
The defensive roster is not the worst in the entire league. This is a young defense that with the right coaching should have been better than this.
Bettcher's defenses were quite a bit better in AZ, do you think he's just mailing it in here?
Your original assertion:
You've made zero ground on proving or strengthening that statement in any way. In fact, it's a stupid statement to make because a cursory glance of the post-draft press would prove the contrary. I provided summaries of the 2 of the first round draft picks this year, one of whom is performing miserably, and you've provided, well, nothing but your opinion.
Can't say I'm familiar with building the ladder, but I know what you're doing is commonly referred to as the Gish Gallop. It's clear your logical reasoning is highly flawed, which would be necessary to arrive at the baseless conclusion that this roster should magically have arrived at many more wins than they've managed to date.
You've declared yourself the winner? That's awesome!
You know which one of the pundits thinks you lost? This guy:
Andy Benoit's grade: D+
This one is surprising because the Giants did not NEED a defensive tackle. Last year’s third-round pick, B.J. Hill, is a star in the making, and 2017 second-rounder Dalvin Tomlinson is quietly on a similar plane. Those two can play 3-technique (between the guard and tackle) or 5-technique (over the tackle) on base downs, with Lawrence occupying the middle as a nose. But that package will only be usable about 20 snaps a game. A few top edge rushers were still on the board, as were all of the defensive backs. Giants GM Dave Gettleman believes in stocking up on D-linemen, but defensive coordinator James Bettcher, who runs a pressure-heavy scheme, can only play with so many at once. And that pressure-heavy scheme can’t work if New York doesn’t have corners and safeties who can cover one-on-one.
It occurred to this guy a team - especially running a scheme like Bettcher - in a pass-first league - might actually need edge rushers. Go figure!
You must not have made captain of that HS debate team.
You're changing the argument - which you made, that said the team has to be more talented because the pundits loved the talent. Any attempt to show how ridiculous that sounds is met with you disagreeing with said pundits.
So, did they think the talent was great or didn't they?
And yes - Lawrence has played well. That's great - for a 17th overall, drafted into a position that already had a couple of players. I guess if there's a good QB at #2 this year the Giants should take him, BPA and all that.
Bullshit.
"There is no limit to a person's ability to rationalize the truth."
We knew this coming into the season - or at least those of us who aren’t cheerleaders for DG/Giants brass did.
Bettcher may suck but so does the talent.
It’s also possible to view this as yet another example of scapegoating, which at this point seems to be part of the Giants cultural identity. They are serial scapegoaters.
So don’t fall for it: It’s possible to think Shurmur is incompetent but that he is in no way the only one in the organization underperforming. (I think most BBI posters think this.)
It’s possible to think that there is some talent on the defense. And that Lawrence is one of the bright spots on what is a developing defensive line.
It’s possible to think that the youth and inexperience on the D makes utilizing this talent a difficult coaching task.
It’s also possible to think that Bettcher the defensive coaches have been given this difficult task, and that they are not doing well at solving it.
A lot of talking past each other on this thread.