“if the team cannot stop the same plays (crossing routes) in 2 seasons is it scheme or players? If teams continue to target Haley and you give no help is it scheme or players? Same things=same results.”
“The issue for me is how talent is developed within the scheme and how a scheme adapts to its talent.. i currently see no cohesion, a lack of execution in basic zone concepts, glaring holes in man concepts, successful plays against a defense that fails to adjust.. my thoughts...”
“good talent without a play to maximize is a waste. Bad habits are formed when emphasis is not on a sound fundamental foundation. Too many explosive plays for me to say this is a sound scheme.. too many individual breakdowns to say fundamentals are emphasized..”
This is really shaping up to be moving on from Shurmur and Bettcher. But we haven't heard a peep about DG from the company men. DG's rebuild will likely continue with hopefully better coaches to put the players in better position to succeed.
Banks on Bettcher - (
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why does Gettleman be the one to choose the next HC and by extension coordinators?
Most believe he did not choose Shurmur and that was Mara's decision. So, why would you think Gettleman is making the decision this time?
Coming out of the interview process, seemed like Gettleman was quite involved, and quite happy with the Shurmur pick. He's the one with the infamous "adult" comments.
Now, maybe that is a total sham and Mara dumped Shurmur on him, but I've not read anything to indicate Gettleman wasn't a big part of choosing the head coach.
Now many of those quality prospects are not developing at a rate they should. When you see that in a widespread sample it's coaching. That's the universal element tying them together. The secondary and OL coaches are doing a particularly terrible job.
Now many of those quality prospects are not developing at a rate they should. When you see that in a widespread sample it's coaching. That's the universal element tying them together. The secondary and OL coaches are doing a particularly terrible job.
Of course it's not false - they didn't just dislike the Jones selection. People thought Lawrence went too high (in particular mentioning that was the main return for Beckham), they thought the Giants shouldn't have taken Baker (let alone traded up for him) with Williams still on the board.
But that's the hallmark of the Giants of recent years - buck the trend, get laughed at, talk big about how they know what they're doing, stink, and repeat the process.
There was widespread debate on who the top CB was and responses varied based on how the teams were expected to utilize them. Baker was considered by many to be the best press man CB available and was absolutely in consideration as the top CB overall by many. In typical fashion our coaches have misutilized him throughout the season hampering his progress. Hell Murphy went before Williams who lasted until #45 overall. Hindsight is 20/20 and noone is surprised a player the Pats drafted is developing fast and playing well. That's the point. It's the coaching.
There was widespread debate on who the top CB was and responses varied based on how the teams were expected to utilize them. Baker was considered by many to be the best press man CB available and was absolutely in consideration as the top CB overall by many. In typical fashion our coaches have misutilized him throughout the season hampering his progress. Hell Murphy went before Williams who lasted until #45 overall. Hindsight is 20/20 and noone is surprised a player the Pats drafted is developing fast and playing well. That's the point. It's the coaching.
You're changing gears because you can't support your initial assertion, which was that this was some universally loved draft.
Lawrence was certainly seen by many draftniks as a good interior defender, but lacked pass rush capability. NFL.com had him as an instant starter but not a likely Pro Bowler. Others had him pegged as a late 1st, early 2nd round pick. The Giants took him at 17.
Baker - a lot of the draftniks had as a second rounder.
The bottom line, the draft is a crapshoot, so the draftniks could be wrong. The same way Gettleman could be wrong. The results have been awful, and there's no individual play to suggest any of these guys are hidden gems being stifled by poor coaching.
The defensive roster is not the worst in the entire league. This is a young defense that with the right coaching should have been better than this.
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but the roster defensively is the worst in the entire league. The coaches need to go but the bigger issue is the GM. if he doesn't go nothing is going to change.
The defensive roster is not the worst in the entire league. This is a young defense that with the right coaching should have been better than this.
Bettcher's defenses were quite a bit better in AZ, do you think he's just mailing it in here?
Your original assertion:
You've made zero ground on proving or strengthening that statement in any way. In fact, it's a stupid statement to make because a cursory glance of the post-draft press would prove the contrary. I provided summaries of the 2 of the first round draft picks this year, one of whom is performing miserably, and you've provided, well, nothing but your opinion.
Can't say I'm familiar with building the ladder, but I know what you're doing is commonly referred to as the Gish Gallop. It's clear your logical reasoning is highly flawed, which would be necessary to arrive at the baseless conclusion that this roster should magically have arrived at many more wins than they've managed to date.
You've declared yourself the winner? That's awesome!
You know which one of the pundits thinks you lost? This guy:
Andy Benoit's grade: D+
This one is surprising because the Giants did not NEED a defensive tackle. Last year’s third-round pick, B.J. Hill, is a star in the making, and 2017 second-rounder Dalvin Tomlinson is quietly on a similar plane. Those two can play 3-technique (between the guard and tackle) or 5-technique (over the tackle) on base downs, with Lawrence occupying the middle as a nose. But that package will only be usable about 20 snaps a game. A few top edge rushers were still on the board, as were all of the defensive backs. Giants GM Dave Gettleman believes in stocking up on D-linemen, but defensive coordinator James Bettcher, who runs a pressure-heavy scheme, can only play with so many at once. And that pressure-heavy scheme can’t work if New York doesn’t have corners and safeties who can cover one-on-one.
It occurred to this guy a team - especially running a scheme like Bettcher - in a pass-first league - might actually need edge rushers. Go figure!
You must not have made captain of that HS debate team.
You're changing the argument - which you made, that said the team has to be more talented because the pundits loved the talent. Any attempt to show how ridiculous that sounds is met with you disagreeing with said pundits.
So, did they think the talent was great or didn't they?
And yes - Lawrence has played well. That's great - for a 17th overall, drafted into a position that already had a couple of players. I guess if there's a good QB at #2 this year the Giants should take him, BPA and all that.
Bullshit.
"There is no limit to a person's ability to rationalize the truth."
We knew this coming into the season - or at least those of us who aren’t cheerleaders for DG/Giants brass did.
Bettcher may suck but so does the talent.
It’s also possible to view this as yet another example of scapegoating, which at this point seems to be part of the Giants cultural identity. They are serial scapegoaters.
So don’t fall for it: It’s possible to think Shurmur is incompetent but that he is in no way the only one in the organization underperforming. (I think most BBI posters think this.)
It’s possible to think that there is some talent on the defense. And that Lawrence is one of the bright spots on what is a developing defensive line.
It’s possible to think that the youth and inexperience on the D makes utilizing this talent a difficult coaching task.
It’s also possible to think that Bettcher the defensive coaches have been given this difficult task, and that they are not doing well at solving it.
A lot of talking past each other on this thread.