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I'm still in Shurmur's corner

Milton : 12/7/2019 6:09 am
The coaching staff needs to be shaken up in my opinion, but I don't see the offensive scheme as the problem. And the offensive scheme is what Shurmur brought to the table when they hired him. It's why they hired him! So why fire him when the offensive scheme is working about as well as could be expected given they have no #1 WR, two pretty good slot receivers (who like Clark Kent and Superman are never on the field at the same time), a pass-catching TE who is really just a glorified WR and he can't stay healthy anyway, and an OL that continues to lack the talent to move the football consistently either via ground or air.

And, oh, by the way, he is working with a rookie QB out of Duke who lacked awareness in the pocket at the college level and has so far shown that he lacks awareness in the pocket at the pro level. Jones's lack of awareness isn't Shurmur's fault, but if he is to be coached out of it it would help if he doesn't have to learn a whole new system next year. Consistency and better coaching at the position level is what the offense needs, not a new system. And more talent of course, especially at OC, OT, and WR. And another off-season under Jones's belt in the system he learned the year before as a rookie. Bottomline is I don't see how anyone an claim that Shurmur isn't getting the most out of the offensive talent he's had to work with given Jones's rookie status and Barkley's health.

On the other hand, the Giants changed their whole defensive scheme to accommodate Bettcher and it's been two years of piss-poor results and a failure to show even flashes of effectiveness or any degree of consistency. How much of it is talent? How much of it is scheme? How much of it is play-calling? It's very likely a mix of all three and Bettcher is responsible for two out of the three. I had such high hopes for him and I was willing to give him a mulligan for last year, but with not a single thing to hang his hat on, it's time for change.

As for the overall talent side of it all, is it a problem at the scouting level or the player development level? That's not something we can tell from our couches. We have no other choice but to trust that between Gettleman and Shurmur there are enough years of experience to put their finger on it and get it right. I'm not letting the two of them totally off the hook for the team's W-L record the past two years, I just think they've both shown "flashes" (so to speak) of being part of the solution rather than part of the problem.

I still believe that Barkley was a brilliant choice. I'm not yet as convinced that Jones is the shizzle, but I'm not convinced he isn't, either. Jones and Gettleman are now a pair. As for Shurmur, this year has been a disaster on offense, but the root of it has been things mostly out of his control and much of it due to the natural growing pains to be expected from a rookie QB. Shurmur proved his mettle in the second half of last season when despite no OBJ and a seriously overmatched OL, he was smart enough to put together game plans that maximized their meager talents on offense and kept them in games, several of which were ultimately blown by the defense.

Bottomline is I believe that all three of them--Gettleman, Shurmur, Jones--deserve another year and maybe even another after that. I get that there are Giants fans who never liked the choices of Gettleman and Shurmur to begin with so now they feel vindicated, but if the Mara family believed in Gettleman and Shurmur two years ago, I think both of them have done enough things right to stick with them through another offseason of additions and subtractions.

Coughlin got four years three times in a row despite some extremely disappointing seasons inbetween. Two out of the three time it resulted in Super Bowls. The third time it didn't and he deservedly got the axe. Point being patience is a virtue and twice before in our recent history continuity (and not change) has rewarded Giants fans with Super Bowls. Let's not be spoiled. Let's not be greedy. It's been darkest before the dawn before.
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Well,  
fkap : 12/7/2019 8:54 am : link
Milton was all in on Rosen, twice, so....

A counter argument is that maybe each of these areas (running, OL, WR, TE) are so meh (at best) is that PS is not getting the most out of them.

Granted, injury does give some excuse, but overall there's just a sense of WTF is the plan?

There's no doubt that a lot of position/coordinator jobs need a turnover revolution. A case could be made that O is not the big problem. But, PS needs to show more than just being the OC. As HC, he isn't showing it.
Shumur needs to be extended  
micky : 12/7/2019 8:57 am : link
He's a great hc that will be sorely missed once he's gone.

His game mgt, and schemes for the the offense is unrivaled. We are in one the greatest eras of giants football and it shows on the practice field.

There's no chance this guy gets away without a long-term extension. Great time to be a giants fan. Shumur is bar far, the best hc this org ever had. People would be clueless to say otherwise
Milton  
Rjanyg : 12/7/2019 9:13 am : link
I appreciate your post but I think it is time for Shurmur to go.

We can say Jones should be better in year 2 in the offense, sad part is I am still not sure he progresses mainly because of the game planning issues with Shurmur. I donít see a coach putting his players in a position to succeed. He is constantly in shotgun spread formation and running inside with Barkley. Our line cannot pass block great and we are out of balance all the time in our run to pass ratio.

One issue for me is the constant personnel changes. It shows we really donít have any identity on offense and therefore not much cohesion. One personnel grouping that I think Shurmur failed to utilized was 21 with 2 TE.
Imagine Engram and Ellison both as in line TE with Shepard and Tate as flankers with Barkley in the deep I formation. From this group you can switch the Pro formation using Engram as FB, or split Engram out and going to spread shotgun, you can go trips, motion Barkley out of the backfield, go empty......and I havenít seen much if any of this from Shurmur. I understand their have been injuries and not all these players were able to play together much but you get the idea. Try to create a mis match and do it by dictating personnel.

I understand the word ď multiple ď is used and is supposed to be an advantage, but with the youth in this team it might be a detriment. Our defense has so many rookies playing that it is hard to tell if they are any good. Making the jump to the NFL has growing pains no doubt but I see way to many blown coverages and that is mainly because our scheme is complicated and the vets that were brought in from AZ to help the learning curve hasnít helped. Our top players on defense are Marcus Golden and Jenkins and they have been ok, but they are not pro bowl type players. If Bettcher is going to have any success he needs a force multiplier on each level of the defense.

I think this coaching staff is the main problem but I will say we need a few more talented players at critical positions. The question is, will it make a difference.
The game is different now, we would not be another  
Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) : 12/7/2019 9:13 am : link
Cleveland if we fired him.

PS is a terrible HC, he just is and itís time to go! Another year of PS is another Top 5 pick and wasted year for Saquon and DJ.
Iím not trying to be facetious...  
Josh in the City : 12/7/2019 9:17 am : link
but in all seriousness, are you blind?!
The things that bother me are some of his game time  
Blue21 : 12/7/2019 9:26 am : link
decisions and the lack of ways he uses Saquon in the passing game. No imagination. Also the fact that the team has not improved at all at the end of the season. Same mistakes every week every game. Head coach has to be held accountable. Will they keep Shurmur? I'm guessing no but at the same time it wouldn't surprise me if they do. Betcher has to be gones and the line coach. Maybe get a real OC and Shurmur relinquish his play calling duties so he can focus more on the overall picture.
If you enjoy high draft picks every season......  
thrunthrublue : 12/7/2019 9:30 am : link
And want to avoid the stress of meaningful games in october, november and december......if you appreciate watching teams march down the field and score against the giants at will.....if 2 is your lucky number, than the 2 and 14 shurmur led giants are for you, and if you want to guarantee finishing last in the nfc east every year into perpetuity.....keep shurmur.
Milton  
Anakim : 12/7/2019 9:43 am : link
Seriously? Seriously? You're in the corner of one of the losingest head coaches in NFL HISTORY?


Jesus Christ. I swear....
RE: I'm not trying to be a dick-though I'm going to probably come off as  
Anakim : 12/7/2019 9:43 am : link
In comment 14705951 SFGFNCGiantsFan said:
Quote:
one-but I have no idea how anyone can still be in Shurmur's corner. He is a horrible, horrible head coach. If he's here in '20, we'll be having the same 'WTF is this dude doing?' threads.


Yep. There is absolutely no defending Shurmur.
RE: I agree with Milton...  
Anakim : 12/7/2019 9:44 am : link
In comment 14705986 Tark10 said:
Quote:
Patience is a virtue. Lets not become another Cleveland. I think this team will show significant improvement next year. Ample cap space, free agent signings, and the draft should show immediate improvement next year. If this team doesn't go at least 8-8 next year, I will jump on the change train along with some other posters on this thread.


Huh? "Let's not become another Cleveland" - Right, let's just continue down the wrong path and waste another season. Cool.
I can't get behind the scheme is working argument  
JFIB : 12/7/2019 9:53 am : link
When I see Saquan continually running up the middle for no gain over and over, I see a lack of awareness. He is a guy who excels in open space and there is no creativity to put him in that situation. The entire offense lacks creativity. Where are the slant passes? Where are the wheel routes? Jet sweeps and reverses are not fooling anyone anymore. I do not see an offensive guru out there, all I see is white bread and confusion. Time for the whole coaching staff to be replaced.
Milton....  
rmc3981 : 12/7/2019 9:57 am : link
I have lurked on BBI for a number of years and have ALWAYS enjoyed your posts with their wit and intelligence. This is the first time that I, respectfully, completely disagree with you. Shurmur is not, and will not be the answer. He needs to go. He should have never been hired.
I'm a fan of continuity  
WillieYoung : 12/7/2019 9:58 am : link
when it's close, retrain the coach. In my opinion, it's not close. Even during the 18 years of lousy football, we were never this incompetent and we were never the laughing stock of the league.
Heís the head coach, not the offensive coordinator  
Mike in NJ : 12/7/2019 9:59 am : link
He is responsible for the performance of the entire team and overseeing the development of all of its players. His duties and evaluation performance are not tied to just one unit. The team is a train wreck and it starts with the coach.
Milton mustíve been high  
WillVAB : 12/7/2019 10:00 am : link
When he wrote this.
Milton has been on this site for at least 20 something years  
HomerJones45 : 12/7/2019 10:09 am : link
good guy.

You won't go too far wrong thinking just the opposite of what he does.
LOSER  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 12/7/2019 10:23 am : link
No schemes, no inspiration, no clock management, sh*t position coaches, lack of progress and regression in all aspects of the team.
Pretty sure you are alone there  
Sammo85 : 12/7/2019 10:25 am : link
Shurmur may be a good man, but heís not a HC. Itís painfully obvious. This coaching group canít be salvaged on the field or off it with fans.
Shurmur  
JohnG in Albany : 12/7/2019 10:26 am : link
There's no there, there.
...  
christian : 12/7/2019 10:27 am : link
From the contemporary articles posted from his time in Cleveland, Shurmur appears to be the same coach he was that time around.

Now what measures did the Giants put in place to help him evolve beyond those weaknesses? If they weren't willing or able to help him progress, why was he hired?

At some point the answer isn't these head coaches are coming in and fucking tricking everyone. The process is broken and is leading to the same results.
Miltonís post echoes my own thoughts.  
Aspiring Slacker : 12/7/2019 10:29 am : link
I agree with the entire post which is a rarity considering itís breadth.

If they keep Shurmur  
sems : 12/7/2019 10:32 am : link
I'm selling my tickets before the season starts. Three years in a row where I can't even give tickets away after October.
Milton  
Archer : 12/7/2019 10:32 am : link
I like Shurmur as a person and would love to see him succeed but he and staff not demonstrated the ability to improve the team
By any analytics the team is worse or the same as it was when he started

Shurmur and his staff continue to make the same errors
I could go into specifics but I think that they have been well documented by others
Anyone  
BeckShepEli : 12/7/2019 10:42 am : link
Who wants to keep Shurmur should be banned for a year. What games are you watching???
Why would you compare Shurmur to Coughlin?  
Larry in Pencilvania : 12/7/2019 10:46 am : link
I also couldn't understand where someone compared Rivera's crapfest of a speech to Coughlin.

Coughlin came in and with a workman like drill sergeant attitude that didn't reach his players. When threatened he adapted and changed his style to suit his team. He became understanding, less abrasive and earned his players' respect. Hell the man took the team to In And Out Burger before Super Bowl 42. Michael Strahan started hating the man and finished up wanting to play for no other coach. Coughlin's Super Bowl 46 team speech the night before the game he told them he loved them to a man. That team ran through a wall for him to win that game.

Tom Coughlin pissed off a ton of his players, but many of them will say he made them better men. Shurmur can't do that
ďYou are what your record says you areĒ and  
morrison40 : 12/7/2019 10:49 am : link
Shurmur as a HC has yet to rise to a level of mediocrity and there is no empirical data that suggests he ever will .
He's also hired as the Head Coach,  
Simms11 : 12/7/2019 10:52 am : link
not the OC. I think your argument would hold water if he was being retained as the OC. He's not proven himself to be a Head Coach, one iota!
Heís  
cokeduplt : 12/7/2019 11:12 am : link
A terrible head coach, we need to move on
my concern is that our OL sucks or Barkley is a net negative  
markky : 12/7/2019 11:14 am : link
due to injury and he keeps the same players on the field. Players don't "own" a position. they don't have the right to start or play. if they suck, try someone else, even if it takes that someone else a few games to develop.

it seems that the Giants are slaves to the week 1 depth chart or worse, the depth chart entering training camp.
I am in agreement on keeping Shurmur  
Jim in Forest Hills : 12/7/2019 11:16 am : link
IF they keep DG. Let the live and die together. I dont want DG hiring the next coach.
Bettcher has by far less talent to work with  
jcn56 : 12/7/2019 11:16 am : link
And I think it's unfair to suggest they changed around their whole scheme for him since it was rumored prior to the coaching hires that the Giants were looking for a return to the 3-4.

I do think some of this is unfair to Shurmur, because Gettleman has built him a team that can't win. I don't think Coughlin could, and I doubt Rivera will either. He might do better than Shurmur would, but that's not saying much.

The Giants are doomed to this until they clean house, starting at the top.
Sorry  
gidiefor : Mod : 12/7/2019 11:19 am : link
this does not pass my smell test

I can not accept the plunge backward that Shurmur has taken this team on. They have not grown under his leadership, they have only progressed backwards. That is the result of bad coaching, there is no other way to look at it.

Also I question his decision making during the game - and especially during the fourth quarter. He seems to have no discipline or sense of timing and he also appears to panic and act in desperation.

No -- patience is not what is called for here. This guy is a nice man - but he is not head coach material and he doesn't fit in with the great tradition that was defined by Parcells and Coughlin. He does not understand what it takes to win in the NFL.
Can't stand being totally out-coached every single week  
Bob in Newburgh : 12/7/2019 11:37 am : link
PS and JB have to go. DG should go too if these were his choices. Otherwise you can quibble about his drafting, but from a macro standpoint his drafts have been good.

We have the physical talent (except on o-line) to be competitive right now.

We need smart coaches who can analyse strengths and weaknesses of the players we actually have, rather than the usual "this is how I do things crap" that leads to continuous rebuilding.

Want these guys gone before they ruin the potential of Barkley, Jones, Engram and others too numerous to mention. I believe we are close to having more 1st rounders on our roster (and not all busts) than anybody else.

Hahahaha  
Nine-Tails : 12/7/2019 12:53 pm : link
Every week the number of people still supporting Shurmur surprises me.
RE: Hahahaha  
Anakim : 12/7/2019 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14706206 Nine-Tails said:
Quote:
Every week the number of people still supporting Shurmur surprises me.


Yep. It's like how much more proof do you need? What the hell else does he have to do to show he's a terrible head coach?
The nfl landscape is littered with failed head coaches  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/7/2019 1:25 pm : link
Shurmur is just the latest one. He tried, it didnt work. Hes just not head coach material.
RE: Bettcher has by far less talent to work with  
christian : 12/7/2019 1:40 pm : link
In comment 14706111 jcn56 said:
Quote:
And I think it's unfair to suggest they changed around their whole scheme for him since it was rumored prior to the coaching hires that the Giants were looking for a return to the 3-4.

I do think some of this is unfair to Shurmur, because Gettleman has built him a team that can't win. I don't think Coughlin could, and I doubt Rivera will either. He might do better than Shurmur would, but that's not saying much.

The Giants are doomed to this until they clean house, starting at the top.


I've never been in love with Bettcher, but in his tenure with the Cardinals he oversaw defenses rank 7th, 14th, and 19th in points and 5th, 2nd, and 6th in yards.

He comes to the Giants and it's 23rd and 29th in points and 24th and 26th in yards.

But yeah, this defensive is just over run with talent.
Milton I like that you have taken up  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/7/2019 1:55 pm : link
"arms against a sea of troubles" and are willing to stand virtually alone against the pitchfork wielding mob that is currently BBI.

Still, I think all your plus points together lead to merely validate keeping PS as an OC or OC/Assistant HC, not as a true HC. Or keep Shula in place while the rest of the staff (not the STs coaches) are overturned.

Most of this coaching staff, and surely the HC, need to be axed. Especially with an obvious choice like the D minded Rivera hovering just off stage.
'I'm still in Shurmur's corner'  
Torrag : 12/7/2019 3:37 pm : link
It's an unpopular stance but at least you tried to defend it...however poorly. Kudos.
I'm with Milton  
stoneman : 12/7/2019 4:04 pm : link
I am for one more year - and I am in the think it will happen camp as well. A regime change is alot of effort and time.

IMO - there is no difference between 2 wins and 5 wins. Its the bottom of the pack. They lost 4 games by less than 1 score, 2 games in the 4th. All is not doom and gloom as BBI forshadows, they could have easily been 6 and 6 or 1 and 11, bottom of the field.
I just don't see  
bc4life : 12/7/2019 4:29 pm : link
the owners taking a chance on giving him one more year.
Calling 7 wins since 2017 BBI doom and gloom  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/7/2019 5:18 pm : link
Is loser talk. I cant fathom explaining away the dumpster fire of underperformance this franchise has been.
RE: If you're  
uther99 : 12/7/2019 6:03 pm : link
In comment 14705953 TheMick7 said:
Quote:
it's time to throw in the towel!


I'll give one small example of a problem clearly related to coaching.  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/7/2019 6:05 pm : link
I'd like to characterize this problem rather as a lack of good coaching, and even if it's not a player/position directly under the coaching of Shurmur, I think the HC HAS TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY for it.

The problem is with one of DG's most successful veteran moves to date, and I suppose under the auspices of the Director of Pro Player Personnel. Markus Golden, for the life of him one of our most high effort players and clearly our best pass rusher, can't seem to get himself consistently lined up on sides. The guy has amassed penalty after penalty for offsides or lined up in the neutral zone. How the fuck does that happen if not for just shitty ass, negligent, coaching?

I literally wanted to puke the last two or three times this idiot had a neutral zone infraction.

Has ANY Patriot been called for that more than once all year? Has any Patriot been called for that at all?

Holy shite it's incredible that Golden has done it more than once in a given game. It unbelievable that he's done it IIRC, twice in a single drive by the opposition.

That's just giving away points.
My great HS head coach, Buzz Firkser, used to say  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/7/2019 6:10 pm : link
"there's no shame if we get beat by some team just flat out whipping us because they were better than we were. But we would have HELL to pay if we lost a game because of mental errors."

I think this team under Shurmur has made an unconscionable number of mental errors, especially on defense.

It's indefensible, and it falls squarely on the shoulders of the HC.
Pardon that.  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/7/2019 6:10 pm : link
.
Shurmur's corner - getting empty in there  
PatersonPlank : 12/7/2019 6:18 pm : link
Passive equal fail  
Simms : 12/7/2019 7:16 pm : link
Especially in the region the big apple. Giants have been in a free fall for many reasons becoming just about the worst team in the NFL with little signs other that pie in the sky expectations for the future.

Shurmur was not handed a team in transition with a core. We need a no nonsense leader and a builder of men.

Our HC might be many things but his track record and current state of affairs reflected anything but..

Hmmm huh hmmmm  
micky : 12/10/2019 6:46 am : link
...
How the fuck can you be in his corner?  
cjac : 12/10/2019 7:00 am : link
It was the same fucking game as last year, we had them on the ropes and then layed a big fucking stinky egg in the second half.

What makes anyone think it would look any different next year? Get him the fuck out of here
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