The coaching staff needs to be shaken up in my opinion, but I don't see the offensive scheme as the problem. And the offensive scheme is what Shurmur brought to the table when they hired him. It's why they hired him! So why fire him when the offensive scheme is working about as well as could be expected given they have no #1 WR, two pretty good slot receivers (who like Clark Kent and Superman are never on the field at the same time), a pass-catching TE who is really just a glorified WR and he can't stay healthy anyway, and an OL that continues to lack the talent to move the football consistently either via ground or air.
And, oh, by the way, he is working with a rookie QB out of Duke who lacked awareness in the pocket at the college level and has so far shown that he lacks awareness in the pocket at the pro level. Jones's lack of awareness isn't Shurmur's fault, but if he is to be coached out of it it would help if he doesn't have to learn a whole new system next year. Consistency and better coaching at the position level is what the offense needs, not a new system. And more talent of course, especially at OC, OT, and WR. And another off-season under Jones's belt in the system he learned the year before as a rookie. Bottomline is I don't see how anyone an claim that Shurmur isn't getting the most out of the offensive talent he's had to work with given Jones's rookie status and Barkley's health.
On the other hand, the Giants changed their whole defensive scheme to accommodate Bettcher and it's been two years of piss-poor results and a failure to show even flashes of effectiveness or any degree of consistency. How much of it is talent? How much of it is scheme? How much of it is play-calling? It's very likely a mix of all three and Bettcher is responsible for two out of the three. I had such high hopes for him and I was willing to give him a mulligan for last year, but with not a single thing to hang his hat on, it's time for change.
As for the overall talent side of it all, is it a problem at the scouting level or the player development level? That's not something we can tell from our couches. We have no other choice but to trust that between Gettleman and Shurmur there are enough years of experience to put their finger on it and get it right. I'm not letting the two of them totally off the hook for the team's W-L record the past two years, I just think they've both shown "flashes" (so to speak) of being part of the solution rather than part of the problem.
I still believe that Barkley was a brilliant choice. I'm not yet as convinced that Jones is the shizzle, but I'm not convinced he isn't, either. Jones and Gettleman are now a pair. As for Shurmur, this year has been a disaster on offense, but the root of it has been things mostly out of his control and much of it due to the natural growing pains to be expected from a rookie QB. Shurmur proved his mettle in the second half of last season when despite no OBJ and a seriously overmatched OL, he was smart enough to put together game plans that maximized their meager talents on offense and kept them in games, several of which were ultimately blown by the defense.
Bottomline is I believe that all three of them--Gettleman, Shurmur, Jones--deserve another year and maybe even another after that. I get that there are Giants fans who never liked the choices of Gettleman and Shurmur to begin with so now they feel vindicated, but if the Mara family believed in Gettleman and Shurmur two years ago, I think both of them have done enough things right to stick with them through another offseason of additions and subtractions.
Coughlin got four years three times in a row despite some extremely disappointing seasons inbetween. Two out of the three time it resulted in Super Bowls. The third time it didn't and he deservedly got the axe. Point being patience is a virtue and twice before in our recent history continuity (and not change) has rewarded Giants fans with Super Bowls. Let's not be spoiled. Let's not be greedy. It's been darkest before the dawn before.
Has there been one player who has gotten better that was here in 18 and 19? We haven’t seen one sign of anything “clicking” at all. There has been no point where you stop and say “you know what, we’re losing but god damn (this) or (this) is happening and it’s trending upward.”
It’s just complete blah. If the players are so bad then the GM has to go. If the players are so bad then the coach has to go as well for not making this a 5 win team instead of a (barely) 2 win team. I think that’s everyone’s point... you’re so bad it doesn’t even matter whether it’s bad players or bad coaching, it’s both too bad to continue.
He built Jacksonville from the ground up to immediate success. As much as we didn’t like it it was worth keeping him around. Shurmur unfortunately is a mistake that needs to be corrected before more time is wasted. And I was all in on hiring him.
I think he goes.....DG is who might stay
It is Shurmur's job to choose his position coaches, so it's partly on him, but it's hard to tell how much of that comes down to availability. Coughlin was awful at picking coaches it seemed and was constantly forced to fire them.
But, even considering the youth on this team, there does seem to be a level of confusion that should not be occurring this late in the season, especially his second season.
Might be Peter Principle at work. There's that pressure to move up. Up isn't always better, up to the next level might not fit your strengths & talents, and may make you more vulenrable to your weaknesses.
Think the best example of someone finding their perfect level was the Late great Jim Johnson, DC of the Eagles. He was tailor made and a few equals as a DC.
And we won’t talk about defense which he oversees, or the constant in game decisions that never seem to be the correct ones.
I was willing to give him a pretty long leash, but that was over 5/6 games ago.
It seems Shurmur is best positioned with a strong Head Coach or offensive minded one and then he can be a pretty good OC. Unfortunately I think he needs guidance.....and there is no one to serve that present role. TIme to move on.
This coaching staff has not adjusted to the type of players they have to play with. Unlike past Giant coaches they constantly run a system that does not match the talent on the field. You cannot honestly say talent wise they are worse then last year. But they sure play that way. And that's on the coach.
Rookie quarterback aside, they are regressing and heading for an even worse result record wise this year and not progressing. Plus, he has shown to be a terrible in game manager. And you want to bring him back. Man oh man I just don't see what you see.
The running game is a microcosm - Giants have the #2 pick in the draft but Shurmur can't find ways to get him in space to make plays. He's also preferred an inside running game with a back whose strength is making people miss outside the tackles. The screen game is non-existent.
Now add this to the poor defense and general bad in-game management and I don't see a valid reason for him staying other than you want one more season of training for Jones as you add actual talent and then transition to a top coaching candidate.
The running game is a microcosm - Giants have the #2 pick in the draft but Shurmur can't find ways to get him in space to make plays. He's also preferred an inside running game with a back whose strength is making people miss outside the tackles. The screen game is non-existent.
Now add this to the poor defense and general bad in-game management and I don't see a valid reason for him staying other than you want one more season of training for Jones as you add actual talent and then transition to a top coaching candidate.
Starting to think this may be a power play by showing it is the talent on on OL....it is the GM not me with these inside runs. Agree about not creating offense despite deficiencies.
Bottom line this guy got the job running Norv Turner's offense and then put his twists into it too make it his own. From day one when he took over OC in Minny he ran Norvs playbook and for some reason now and last year for that matter he believes his way is better, how's that going?
I am sorry but the guy is a hack and not a leader of men. If I recall correctly Holmgren called him out after the hire about he read to much media and was a hard ass to players. It now seems he pays to much attention to it and is soft. So IMO anyone who changes due to opinions is not a leader of men.
I am sure he is a good guy but this team needs a leader and a director and that's simply not him.
His sense that Shurmur should stay does not pass the eye test for me, I m ready to move on. But it s not totally ridiculous to think he could succeed under better circumstances.
Cherry picking his post, I think Daniel Jones has been a success. It seems short sighted to me when rookies quarterbacks are evaluated as if they are veterans: pocket presence, turnovers, recognition, etc.
Thankfully Phil Simms and Eli Manning were given an opportunity to out grow being a rookie, took Simms more than a few years , but for me it was worth it.
If you get a chance check out Troy Aikmen, John Elway and Peyton Manning’s rookie year.
Jones is the real deal, I m quite confident of that.
His sense that Shurmur should stay does not pass the eye test for me, I m ready to move on. But it s not totally ridiculous to think he could succeed under better circumstances.
Cherry picking his post, I think Daniel Jones has been a success. It seems short sighted to me when rookies quarterbacks are evaluated as if they are veterans: pocket presence, turnovers, recognition, etc.
Thankfully Phil Simms and Eli Manning were given an opportunity to out grow being a rookie, took Simms more than a few years , but for me it was worth it.
If you get a chance check out Troy Aikmen, John Elway and Peyton Manning’s rookie year.
Jones is the real deal, I m quite confident of that.
+ 1. Excellent summary ... well said.
Ditch this wet noodle WCO .
i'd like to move on.
No in game improvements, No clock management, Barkley looks like a bum and he’s just a career loser.
A counter argument is that maybe each of these areas (running, OL, WR, TE) are so meh (at best) is that PS is not getting the most out of them.
Granted, injury does give some excuse, but overall there's just a sense of WTF is the plan?
There's no doubt that a lot of position/coordinator jobs need a turnover revolution. A case could be made that O is not the big problem. But, PS needs to show more than just being the OC. As HC, he isn't showing it.
His game mgt, and schemes for the the offense is unrivaled. We are in one the greatest eras of giants football and it shows on the practice field.
There's no chance this guy gets away without a long-term extension. Great time to be a giants fan. Shumur is bar far, the best hc this org ever had. People would be clueless to say otherwise
We can say Jones should be better in year 2 in the offense, sad part is I am still not sure he progresses mainly because of the game planning issues with Shurmur. I don’t see a coach putting his players in a position to succeed. He is constantly in shotgun spread formation and running inside with Barkley. Our line cannot pass block great and we are out of balance all the time in our run to pass ratio.
One issue for me is the constant personnel changes. It shows we really don’t have any identity on offense and therefore not much cohesion. One personnel grouping that I think Shurmur failed to utilized was 21 with 2 TE.
Imagine Engram and Ellison both as in line TE with Shepard and Tate as flankers with Barkley in the deep I formation. From this group you can switch the Pro formation using Engram as FB, or split Engram out and going to spread shotgun, you can go trips, motion Barkley out of the backfield, go empty......and I haven’t seen much if any of this from Shurmur. I understand their have been injuries and not all these players were able to play together much but you get the idea. Try to create a mis match and do it by dictating personnel.
I understand the word “ multiple “ is used and is supposed to be an advantage, but with the youth in this team it might be a detriment. Our defense has so many rookies playing that it is hard to tell if they are any good. Making the jump to the NFL has growing pains no doubt but I see way to many blown coverages and that is mainly because our scheme is complicated and the vets that were brought in from AZ to help the learning curve hasn’t helped. Our top players on defense are Marcus Golden and Jenkins and they have been ok, but they are not pro bowl type players. If Bettcher is going to have any success he needs a force multiplier on each level of the defense.
I think this coaching staff is the main problem but I will say we need a few more talented players at critical positions. The question is, will it make a difference.
PS is a terrible HC, he just is and it’s time to go! Another year of PS is another Top 5 pick and wasted year for Saquon and DJ.
Jesus Christ. I swear....
Yep. There is absolutely no defending Shurmur.
Huh? "Let's not become another Cleveland" - Right, let's just continue down the wrong path and waste another season. Cool.
You won't go too far wrong thinking just the opposite of what he does.
Now what measures did the Giants put in place to help him evolve beyond those weaknesses? If they weren't willing or able to help him progress, why was he hired?
At some point the answer isn't these head coaches are coming in and fucking tricking everyone. The process is broken and is leading to the same results.
By any analytics the team is worse or the same as it was when he started
Shurmur and his staff continue to make the same errors
I could go into specifics but I think that they have been well documented by others
Coughlin came in and with a workman like drill sergeant attitude that didn't reach his players. When threatened he adapted and changed his style to suit his team. He became understanding, less abrasive and earned his players' respect. Hell the man took the team to In And Out Burger before Super Bowl 42. Michael Strahan started hating the man and finished up wanting to play for no other coach. Coughlin's Super Bowl 46 team speech the night before the game he told them he loved them to a man. That team ran through a wall for him to win that game.
Tom Coughlin pissed off a ton of his players, but many of them will say he made them better men. Shurmur can't do that
it seems that the Giants are slaves to the week 1 depth chart or worse, the depth chart entering training camp.
I do think some of this is unfair to Shurmur, because Gettleman has built him a team that can't win. I don't think Coughlin could, and I doubt Rivera will either. He might do better than Shurmur would, but that's not saying much.
The Giants are doomed to this until they clean house, starting at the top.
I can not accept the plunge backward that Shurmur has taken this team on. They have not grown under his leadership, they have only progressed backwards. That is the result of bad coaching, there is no other way to look at it.
Also I question his decision making during the game - and especially during the fourth quarter. He seems to have no discipline or sense of timing and he also appears to panic and act in desperation.
No -- patience is not what is called for here. This guy is a nice man - but he is not head coach material and he doesn't fit in with the great tradition that was defined by Parcells and Coughlin. He does not understand what it takes to win in the NFL.
We have the physical talent (except on o-line) to be competitive right now.
We need smart coaches who can analyse strengths and weaknesses of the players we actually have, rather than the usual "this is how I do things crap" that leads to continuous rebuilding.
Want these guys gone before they ruin the potential of Barkley, Jones, Engram and others too numerous to mention. I believe we are close to having more 1st rounders on our roster (and not all busts) than anybody else.
Yep. It's like how much more proof do you need? What the hell else does he have to do to show he's a terrible head coach?
I do think some of this is unfair to Shurmur, because Gettleman has built him a team that can't win. I don't think Coughlin could, and I doubt Rivera will either. He might do better than Shurmur would, but that's not saying much.
The Giants are doomed to this until they clean house, starting at the top.
I've never been in love with Bettcher, but in his tenure with the Cardinals he oversaw defenses rank 7th, 14th, and 19th in points and 5th, 2nd, and 6th in yards.
He comes to the Giants and it's 23rd and 29th in points and 24th and 26th in yards.
But yeah, this defensive is just over run with talent.
Still, I think all your plus points together lead to merely validate keeping PS as an OC or OC/Assistant HC, not as a true HC. Or keep Shula in place while the rest of the staff (not the STs coaches) are overturned.
Most of this coaching staff, and surely the HC, need to be axed. Especially with an obvious choice like the D minded Rivera hovering just off stage.
IMO - there is no difference between 2 wins and 5 wins. Its the bottom of the pack. They lost 4 games by less than 1 score, 2 games in the 4th. All is not doom and gloom as BBI forshadows, they could have easily been 6 and 6 or 1 and 11, bottom of the field.
The problem is with one of DG's most successful veteran moves to date, and I suppose under the auspices of the Director of Pro Player Personnel. Markus Golden, for the life of him one of our most high effort players and clearly our best pass rusher, can't seem to get himself consistently lined up on sides. The guy has amassed penalty after penalty for offsides or lined up in the neutral zone. How the fuck does that happen if not for just shitty ass, negligent, coaching?
I literally wanted to puke the last two or three times this idiot had a neutral zone infraction.
Has ANY Patriot been called for that more than once all year? Has any Patriot been called for that at all?
Holy shite it's incredible that Golden has done it more than once in a given game. It unbelievable that he's done it IIRC, twice in a single drive by the opposition.
That's just giving away points.
I think this team under Shurmur has made an unconscionable number of mental errors, especially on defense.
It's indefensible, and it falls squarely on the shoulders of the HC.
Shurmur was not handed a team in transition with a core. We need a no nonsense leader and a builder of men.
Our HC might be many things but his track record and current state of affairs reflected anything but..
What makes anyone think it would look any different next year? Get him the fuck out of here