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Giants fun defense since acquisition of Williams, 2.7 ypc

joeinpa : 12/8/2019 8:59 am
Against some pretty good backs. So, why has there been as much negativity directed towards this player/ and move as there has been.

Last I checked stopping the run is A staple of good defense
I don't think anyone is having  
Diver_Down : 12/8/2019 9:04 am : link
fun.
Losses cloud everything  
BlueHurricane : 12/8/2019 9:05 am : link
Until this team starts winning everything that is done will be viewed as a negative even when something is actually a positive.
Because they trade the  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 9:05 am : link
Potential number 65 or 66 pick for a run stopper that theyíre going to have to pay when their bigger issue is rushing the passer.

Run stoppers are easier to find. Itís easier to find guys who play well in less space than it is to find guys who can be elite out in space.
It was a good move  
NikkiMac : 12/8/2019 9:10 am : link
By DG give the guy credit it only cost the giants a 3rd round pick next draft ........ most likely they werenít going to get someone that is as seasoned as he is especially the luck we have with 3rd round picks and the 4th the following year worry about that next year
According to the majority here....  
KJG5173 : 12/8/2019 9:10 am : link
Because he doesnít get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. Itís comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldnít prevent them from signing anyone else they want. Itís hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.
RE: According to the majority here....  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 9:14 am : link
In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:
Quote:
Because he doesnít get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. Itís comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldnít prevent them from signing anyone else they want. Itís hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.


Itís about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead theyíre getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.
RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
BlueVinnie : 12/8/2019 9:16 am : link
In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


Because he doesnít get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. Itís comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldnít prevent them from signing anyone else they want. Itís hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.



Itís about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead theyíre getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.


Exactly.
RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
KJG5173 : 12/8/2019 9:18 am : link
In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


Because he doesnít get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. Itís comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldnít prevent them from signing anyone else they want. Itís hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.



Itís about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead theyíre getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.

You believe a team that was going to give up an asset aka draft pick was not going to resign him? And he isnít just a run stuffed. He has improved the run defense and improved qb hurries. This defense was and is not one player away from being good. But now they are one less play away from being good for a 3rd round pick. 3rd round picks might have like a 25% chance of being nfl starting players, and this 3rd round pick guarantees thatís. And I still believe the money he costs is not a factor in stopping this team from signing any other free agents they want.
The third round pick  
Maijay : 12/8/2019 9:19 am : link
we are giving up for Williams has been a black hole of a pick for more drafts that I care to remember. I just feel that Williams is at least worth a third rounder. I was not thrilled with the pick but not pulling my hair out over it.

If he doesn't sign then the deal definitely looks worse. Getting a comp pick for him if doesn't sign will take some of the sting out of trading for him in the first place.
RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 9:21 am : link
In comment 14706860 KJG5173 said:
Quote:
In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


Because he doesnít get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. Itís comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldnít prevent them from signing anyone else they want. Itís hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.



Itís about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead theyíre getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.


You believe a team that was going to give up an asset aka draft pick was not going to resign him? And he isnít just a run stuffed. He has improved the run defense and improved qb hurries. This defense was and is not one player away from being good. But now they are one less play away from being good for a 3rd round pick. 3rd round picks might have like a 25% chance of being nfl starting players, and this 3rd round pick guarantees thatís. And I still believe the money he costs is not a factor in stopping this team from signing any other free agents they want.


Your first sentence makes no sense.

And nobody said Williams contract will stop them from signing other players. The point is they lost the opportunity to add two other players, or trade back up for players with a better chance to succeed while also giving up cap space when they could have just given up cap space
Iíve liked Williams deal since day 1  
twostepgiants : 12/8/2019 9:27 am : link
I think we will be acquiring pass rushers in the draft and free agency (hopefully Young & Ngakoue) that will be able to come in here and make an immediate impact because Williams, Lawrence and Tomlinson will be shutting the run down, pushing back the OL and occupying blockers and space.

It doesnít fill up the box score or jump off the screen but itís very integral.
If we were a team in the hunt  
Biteymax22 : 12/8/2019 9:28 am : link
It would have been a good move. Williams is a good player (not great) with a certain amount of value. The issue wasnít Williams himself, but the fact that a team with 0 chance of making the playoffs (I donít care about what the records say, we had no chance) is giving up draft picks for a rental is the issue.

Even if we were to extend him, couldnít we have just signed him in the off season without trading for him first?
I like Williams and he is young - so he is part of the rebuild  
PatersonPlank : 12/8/2019 9:30 am : link
IMO it's easily worth a 3rd round pick to basically guarantee we get him and keep him. If we had waited for Free Agency who knows if we could have signed him or not. 3rd round picks are really hit or miss, we know we have a quality young player in Williams
RE: RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
KJG5173 : 12/8/2019 9:31 am : link
In comment 14706865 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14706860 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


Because he doesnít get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. Itís comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldnít prevent them from signing anyone else they want. Itís hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.



Itís about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead theyíre getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.


You believe a team that was going to give up an asset aka draft pick was not going to resign him? And he isnít just a run stuffed. He has improved the run defense and improved qb hurries. This defense was and is not one player away from being good. But now they are one less play away from being good for a 3rd round pick. 3rd round picks might have like a 25% chance of being nfl starting players, and this 3rd round pick guarantees thatís. And I still believe the money he costs is not a factor in stopping this team from signing any other free agents they want.



Your first sentence makes no sense.

And nobody said Williams contract will stop them from signing other players. The point is they lost the opportunity to add two other players, or trade back up for players with a better chance to succeed while also giving up cap space when they could have just given up cap space

You said he would be able to be signed if we didnít trade for him. The Jets were trading him somewhere. And that team I believe was not going to trade for him and then not resign him. So you wouldnít be able to just sign him bc he would not be available. And they lost the ability to add 1 player at most not 2. Because he counts as a player so that takes out one of the 2 picks they gave up. And if you wanted to use those picks to trade up you now are losing more picks. So that doesnít help the 25 holes they have either.
Go back and look at 2015-2017 nfl 3rd round draft picks. Those players should be established players in this league. For every good player there are 5 bad to not even in the nfl players.
The criticism was the Giants were I believe 2 and 6 at the  
Blue21 : 12/8/2019 9:32 am : link
time of the trade. They obviously weren't going to the playoffs. He's a free agent at the end of the year and if they liked him so much they could have gotten him then without giving up a 3 and a 4 or 5. The 3 Is looking like it's going to be close to a 2. Trade doesn't make sense. He's a very good player but doesn't make sense to give up those picks to have him this year.
RE: RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
section125 : 12/8/2019 9:32 am : link
In comment 14706865 ajr2456 said:
Quote:

Your first sentence makes no sense.

And nobody said Williams contract will stop them from signing other players. The point is they lost the opportunity to add two other players, or trade back up for players with a better chance to succeed while also giving up cap space when they could have just given up cap space


It is a 3rd round in 2020 and a 4th or 5th in 2021 for a chance with the #6 overall pick a few years ago. Who is more likely to have a bigger impact on the defense? A former #6 pick or a 3rd rounder? Clearly a healthy #6 overall pick.
Williams have already proven to be the 1st or 2nd best player on a pretty decent dline with Dexter Lawrence.

But whatever. Argue over 3rd rounder and a 4th rounder.
See  
mdthedream : 12/8/2019 9:34 am : link
because your looking at it wrong.You gave up a Third and Fourth round pick plus the guy you could have signed with that money you will spend for Leonard. That is a lot to give up.
RE: If we were a team in the hunt  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 9:34 am : link
In comment 14706879 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:


Even if we were to extend him, couldnít we have just signed him in the off season without trading for him first?
I donít believe that is true. The fact that the Jets were shopping him for draft picks with interest from trade partners shows Williams was not hitting the open market. In fact, I bet that very few of the talented players scheduled to hit the open market in March will ever do so.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 9:43 am : link
In comment 14706887 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14706865 ajr2456 said:


Quote:



Your first sentence makes no sense.

And nobody said Williams contract will stop them from signing other players. The point is they lost the opportunity to add two other players, or trade back up for players with a better chance to succeed while also giving up cap space when they could have just given up cap space



It is a 3rd round in 2020 and a 4th or 5th in 2021 for a chance with the #6 overall pick a few years ago. Who is more likely to have a bigger impact on the defense? A former #6 pick or a 3rd rounder? Clearly a healthy #6 overall pick.
Williams have already proven to be the 1st or 2nd best player on a pretty decent dline with Dexter Lawrence.

But whatever. Argue over 3rd rounder and a 4th rounder.


Itís closer than you think given what Williams game has shown in the NFL. Itís easy to find guys to have a similar impact at an interior defensive line position that donít cost $12 million and two picks.
I guess Williams will be the only run stuffing 3-4 DE available in FA  
TD : 12/8/2019 9:44 am : link
Oh wait.. no he wonít. And heíll cost the #65th, pick and a fourth round pick plus a market or worse contract (bc he has all the leverage).

Horrible trade no matter how you cut it. Unless Williams were a game changer (and he is not) OR it meant they had a deal in place to re-sign him for cheap right after the trade (and they didnít) this move never made any sense.

Much like the J. Stewart signing and a whole host of other head-scratching moves by DG, somehow some fans will defend it.
So they will have Williams, Tomlinson, Hill and Lawrence.  
Jim in Hoboken : 12/8/2019 9:49 am : link
And maybe they luck out and get Young? Then what? Who knows what the next DC wants to run?

How many games have we won since we got him? Why couldnít he wait until the offseason and get him for nothing? I guess if your argument is ďoh his 3rd round picks like Hill are just JAGs anywayĒ then sure this is a great move. The Jets havenít missed him, and we are going nowhere this year, you think heís more likely to stay now after witnessing this disastrous coaching staff and inept ownership in person?
When it comes to money and people  
djm : 12/8/2019 9:51 am : link
Itís a weird mix. People get weird. Itís no different on BBI and in the sports talk landscape.

Youíve got people here constantly bringing up contracts that havenít even been signed yet and in some cases are 3 years away.

People just have to compare player A and his contract with other players and this is just ridiculously pointless and unfair.

Also, many people here insist on NOT allowing for the thought process that the giants would not have been able to sign Williams in the offseason unless they traded for him last month. ďWhy would the giants trade for a guy now when they can just sign in in the spring I just canít wrap my head around this??Ē Itís because you donít want to. Youíre an idiot.
Same thickheaded  
djm : 12/8/2019 9:54 am : link
Mentality ran roughshod over BBI when jones was drafted 6th. People here actually convinced themselves, without a single piece of proof, that jones slides to 17. How the hell do you know? You donít. Then the guy plays well in camp and early on this season and the same fans do a 180. Wackos.
Williams will never sign for $12mm a year, nor should he.  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 9:55 am : link
Think $18mm.

Donít get upset about it. There wonít be any other players available who will be worth spending the $18mm on instead.
Try it out  
djm : 12/8/2019 9:56 am : link
Someone else likely trades for Williams! And if that happens, the giants arenít signing him in the spring. Just make peace with it and move the fuck on already.
I really don't like the argument when people say we haven't won  
PatersonPlank : 12/8/2019 9:57 am : link
since we added a player. Its about building a team, there are 22 players out there. Adding one solid guy here or there may not give you automatically another win immediately, but it gets you closer. You need a lot of good players. If we never upgraded a position because it wouldn't immediately add another win to the record, then we would never upgrade anything.

IMO a 3rd for a damn good runstopper is well worth it. Who knows if we could have signed him in the offseason? Why is it a given. If the Jets sent him somewhere else he likely have signed with them. If this guarantees us that we can sign him I'm good with the 3rd. He's better than what we would likely draft in that spot anyway
How many offseasons  
djm : 12/8/2019 9:57 am : link
Do we have to see where our team doesnít sign that FA we all wanted? How many years? How many times do we need to experience that to learn that nothing in FA is a certainty?

Itís as if some of you have no memory.
RE: When it comes to money and people  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 9:59 am : link
In comment 14706907 djm said:
Quote:
Itís a weird mix. People get weird. Itís no different on BBI and in the sports talk landscape.

Youíve got people here constantly bringing up contracts that havenít even been signed yet and in some cases are 3 years away.

People just have to compare player A and his contract with other players and this is just ridiculously pointless and unfair.

Also, many people here insist on NOT allowing for the thought process that the giants would not have been able to sign Williams in the offseason unless they traded for him last month. ďWhy would the giants trade for a guy now when they can just sign in in the spring I just canít wrap my head around this??Ē Itís because you donít want to. Youíre an idiot.


Youíre missing the point by a large margin. Players with Williams skill set and production can be found for much less than a 3rd, 4th and $12+ million. Chris Jones, Shelby Harris, Michael Brockers are all free agents and while Jones price tag is large, itís just money.

Also whatís lost is in a season going nowhere where your whole staff might be getting fired, who knows if weíll even be playing in a 3-4? If we bring in a staff that wants to play 4-3 Williams is back to playing out of position like he was on the Jets this year.

Hopefully the difference between trading for him  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/8/2019 10:02 am : link
or just signing him when (if) he hits FA, is like the difference between what we could have paid to hold onto Linval Joseph, and what we DID pay to sign Snacks Harrison.

By trading for him, he is ours. He also won't count against us (if we extend him) for acquiring a draft pick for losing Landon Collins.
RE: I guess Williams will be the only run stuffing 3-4 DE available in FA  
KJG5173 : 12/8/2019 10:05 am : link
In comment 14706901 TD said:
Quote:
Oh wait.. no he wonít. And heíll cost the #65th, pick and a fourth round pick plus a market or worse contract (bc he has all the leverage).

Horrible trade no matter how you cut it. Unless Williams were a game changer (and he is not) OR it meant they had a deal in place to re-sign him for cheap right after the trade (and they didnít) this move never made any sense.

Much like the J. Stewart signing and a whole host of other head-scratching moves by DG, somehow some fans will defend it.

Yes because teams are looking to trade ďgame changersĒ for 3rd and 4th round picks. A lot of people seem to think 3rd - 5th round picks are either hall of gamers or game changers. They are at best lotto tickets.
Here the thing about successful defenses  
Earl the goat : 12/8/2019 10:05 am : link
Having depth on the defensive line is a premium to having a great defense
It makes your secondary look so much better

Imagine

Chase Young
Dexter Lawrence
Leonard Williams
Top FA acquisition

With subbing in Tomlinson. Hill. McIntosh

Not bad


Will make the whole defense so much better
Well, we pretty much have to sign him now. That means  
Jim in Hoboken : 12/8/2019 10:05 am : link
having to outbid other teams offering contracts commensurate with his market value, just so we can give the Jets another pick.

Sure, building a team is important but building a team for this specific year? How does that make sense? And DG keeps investing in run stopping DLís when there are more glaring holes elsewhere, how does that make sense? The defense has continued to be horrid and we are supposed to have confidence in whatever philosophy DG has?

Right now, this team sucks, and everything DG does will be judged in that vein unfortunately. Can he make isolated moves that are actually good? Sure, but our season thus far surely doesnít reflect that.
RE: Try it out  
Blue21 : 12/8/2019 10:07 am : link
In comment 14706918 djm said:
Quote:
Someone else likely trades for Williams! And if that happens, the giants arenít signing him in the spring. Just make peace with it and move the fuck on already.


I have to admit. You're right. Your argument does make sense and no doubt this is where DG was coming from. You've convinced me.
Awful trade  
TyreeHelmet : 12/8/2019 10:07 am : link
Because of the cost. They could have just paid him this offseason - they are going to have to anyway. No need to give up 66th overall pick and next years 4th round. Team has holes everywhere and needs extra picks- not to be subtracting them.
Just looked at my title  
joeinpa : 12/8/2019 10:09 am : link
Obviously Even I know the difference between fun and run. Not easy to type on phone, but the pt remains the same
Teams donít need to run against  
Metnut : 12/8/2019 10:15 am : link
the Giants. Just pass all day against the secondary that Gettleman put together.
Strongly suggest you guys focus in on  
idiotsavant : 12/8/2019 10:16 am : link
The experience levels and specific experience types of the assistants and unit coaches as compared to current league leaders such as Pat's and 9ers. Etc.

Not to preclude coaching changes on top but it's an overlooked subject.

And one that needs work in any case
In my mind, it's premature to discuss the Williams trade until we  
Ira : 12/8/2019 10:17 am : link
find out if we resign him and for how much. I do like the player. He's a good run stopper and gets some pressure on the qb.
Earl  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 10:17 am : link
Thatís my thought except I would have them resigning Golden and Tomlinson would obviously be a starter with Young playing a pure ER role.

Thatís suddenly a very exciting talented front 7 with potential.
TyreeHelmet  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 10:18 am : link
How about you actually read the thread before posting? Just a suggestion.
We appear to have fewer assistant positions overall  
idiotsavant : 12/8/2019 10:19 am : link
And, in some cases far less experienced in the pro game. Or not having the stats in it within cohorts of players in unit.

Or not from ones particular system or having proven ability to do varied.
RE: Well, we pretty much have to sign him now. That means  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 10:23 am : link
In comment 14706934 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
having to outbid other teams offering contracts commensurate with his market value, just so we can give the Jets another pick.


The Giants have the ability to tag Williams. That is a major negotiating advantage. If Williams opts to play 2020 on the tag, he is taking a huge financial risk. He is accepting a payment of ~$16mm in contrast to guaranteed cash of $45mm, which is my rough estimate of what heíd receive in a multi year contract, based on some comps.

The bottom line is that if you think Williams is a very good player who represents a building block for the future, this was a good trade. If you disagree on Williams talent or on the field results, that is a different objection.
RE: Williams will never sign for $12mm a year, nor should he.  
Thankyoueli : 12/8/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14706917 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Think $18mm.

Donít get upset about it. There wonít be any other players available who will be worth spending the $18mm on instead.


I doubt he gets 18 a year.

I like him a lot but THAT would be too much.
Thankyou  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 10:26 am : link
Check out the Grady Jarrett contract from last season. Williams will want a bit more than that. Itís also worthwhile comparing the Jarrett contract and see what elite DL like Donald and Fletcher Cox are receiving ($22-25mm per year). Good players get paid.
Many here refuse to acknowledge  
djm : 12/8/2019 10:30 am : link
That the nfl is all about player agents. They run this league. If you donít see it youíre not paying attention. And I donít even want to defend anything NYG right now but cmon people, get a grip and study how this nfl works. Why do you think the giants made this trade? Try to be rational and objective. I know DG is hated here and he along with the giants have had a rough two years but the guy is not a total fool. Heís a professional. DG is not just blindly throwing darts at the wall and trading or signing guys on a whim. Heís got a plan. Might not work, but heís doing things deliberately and heís using whatever evidence and intel he can gather to build this team. Who knows what the Williams agent was asking for or telling the giants but donít think its likely that some kind of under the table deal was broached? The nfl is built on agent and front office relationships. Wink wink deals and handshakes. This deal is likely no different.

I just canít take someone seriously when they accuse a front office exec of being completely out of touch. Thatís just crazy talk.
$18m per year is more than a franchise tag AAV  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 10:32 am : link
there is zero incentive for the Giants to do anything beyond 1 year at that number. Here's a good article from some agent and cap experts weighing in. Opinions sort of vary all around, but the good thing is that it does seem LW wants to be here.
Inside Leonard Williams debate: Whatís his worth to Giants? - ( New Window )
I think part of William's lack of sacks is  
Thankyoueli : 12/8/2019 10:32 am : link
Due to the fact he's never played on a team with a collectively good pass rush, with how mobile QBs are today you need to trap them in the pocket. One guys getting pressure on the interior doesnt do much when the QB has all kinds of room to side step and get rid of the ball. I dont think Williams has ever played with any good edge rushers?

I see him winning a lot of battles. The one thing I will knock him for on that subject is the fact he doesnt seem to possess any effective counter moves. He either wins initially or he gets pretty much neautralized, to be fair though I see this problem with a whole lot of dlineman these days. In last years draft you could say the same of pretty much every highly touted pass rusher aside from Nick Bosa and Brian Burns. Ed Oliver and Rashan Gary immediately come to mind.
damned if he does, damned if he doesn't  
jbeintherockies : 12/8/2019 10:33 am : link

Gettleman was trying to make the defense better this year.

You only have so many options to do that:
1. Draft (happens once a year, not including supplemental draft)
2. Free agency (the players in FA are available for one reason or another)
3. Trades (the players are being traded for one reason or another)

He traded a third (and a fourth?) for a first round talent that has had a positive impact on the defense:
1. Williams is their best defensive lineman
2. He is more than a run-stuffer; he gets pressure on the QB
3. He has gap discipline
4. He can play any position along the line and play it well
5. He is a very powerful defensive lineman
6. He is in the prime of his career (25 years of age)
7. Less risk of trading for him than drafting an interior defensive lineman in the first round (they have pro film on him)
8. The Giants get a chance to see if he fits in with their defense and locker room
9. I've read Williams has leadership qualities
10. He has not been injury prone (or he plays through injuries)
11. He replaced Olsen Pierre (huge upgrade over Pierre)
12. He allows the Giants to play BJ Hill in his more natural 3-technique position

In my opinion, Leonard Williams was a good trade to help a defense that does not have much to work with.

If Leonard Williams  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 10:40 am : link
Can play any position on the dline well, the Jets wouldnít have traded him for not fitting their scheme.
One thing about Getts  
Giantz_comeback : 12/8/2019 10:40 am : link
He definitely isn't afraid of making an unpopular move. I think we will see payoff on all of these coming together and once we have the right coaching in place, it will translate to wins.
Pass rusher or two  
giant power : 12/8/2019 10:46 am : link
The Niner's front seven was loaded with high draft pick run stoppers till Nick Bosa and Dee Ford came onto the scene this season. Anyone check out Armstead's numbers? The dude has 10 sacks, 3 more than his first 4 years in the league combined. They say a rising tide raises all boats. These two additions have amounted to a tidal wave.
Delete this thread  
Bradshaw's Decal : 12/8/2019 10:54 am : link
It doesn't fit the anti Gentleman narrative.
Recent third round picks, FWIW...  
dannysection 313 : 12/8/2019 11:00 am : link
2019-Oshane Ximines
2018-Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill
2017-Davis Webb
2016-Darian Thompson
2015-Owamagbe Odighizuwa
2014-Damontre Moore

Not exactly a Murderer's Row...

Just part of the conversation to consider. Of course, another GM might have done better.
...  
christian : 12/8/2019 11:05 am : link
It's a good trade if a number of improbable scenarios all go right for the Giants.

Of the 12 teams with more cap room than the Giants over the next 2 years, 7 are in the playoff hunt this year.

Williams is a good not very good player, but what if his market accelerates because a team views adding a few good players gets them in championship contention?

What if the market does command 15-17M a year. If your the Bills maybe that's worth it. Is that worth it to the Giants?

If there is a market that exceeds the Giants value, do the Giants franchise him? Do you think after 8 weeks of this chaos and being blocked from a lucrative deal is going to make him happy and excited to stay?

I suspect the market for Williams will be quite expensive because of the amount of money available out there, and the Giants would be better to invest in 2 mid marker UFAs.

My bet is the Giants end up transition tagging Williams, and lose him to a really big contract.
Let me put it this way; if the Giants were to pick a DT...  
sb from NYT Forum : 12/8/2019 11:06 am : link
...with pick #65 I'd be pissed.
acquisition of Williams  
leinad : 12/8/2019 11:08 am : link
a good bet as far as numbers go , he is a quality starter and while not an elite player at this time well worth the chance at his age.

historic success rates 2005 - 2014


The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)

2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)

3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)

6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)

7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)

RE: Recent third round picks, FWIW...  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 11:08 am : link
In comment 14707015 dannysection 313 said:
Quote:
2019-Oshane Ximines
2018-Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill
2017-Davis Webb
2016-Darian Thompson
2015-Owamagbe Odighizuwa
2014-Damontre Moore

Not exactly a Murderer's Row...

Just part of the conversation to consider. Of course, another GM might have done better.


But recent third round picks throughout the league include

Alvin Kamara
Cooper Kupp
Devin Singletary
Orlando Brown
Ronnie Harrison
Dan Feeney
Derrick Nandi
Chris Godwin
Fred Warner
Justin Lane
Kevin Byard

And a good amount of other contributing players. Just because the Giants have failed in the third doesnt mean the picks arenít valuable
Until Williams signs his extension  
HomerJones45 : 12/8/2019 11:13 am : link
This is an 8 game rental by a team going nowhere and an admission that spending 1/3 of our draft picks on d-linemen has not produced. And once he signs such an extension, you will see whether there was wink, wink or hoodwinked.
...  
christian : 12/8/2019 11:14 am : link
Forget the 3rd and 4th round pick for a moment -- the real question is 1) how much should the Giants be willing to invest and 2) are the Giants wise to franchise him?

If Williams commands more than what the Giants value him or they aren't willing to franchise him, the trade is a loss no matter the assets traded.

I think there will be a lot of fans shocked how much Williams commands.

There is well over 2B in open cap space in the league over the next 2 years. The Giants have a fraction of it and are arguably the worst team in the league.
RE: ...  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14707033 christian said:
Quote:
Forget the 3rd and 4th round pick for a moment -- the real question is 1) how much should the Giants be willing to invest and 2) are the Giants wise to franchise him?

If Williams commands more than what the Giants value him or they aren't willing to franchise him, the trade is a loss no matter the assets traded.

I think there will be a lot of fans shocked how much Williams commands.

There is well over 2B in open cap space in the league over the next 2 years. The Giants have a fraction of it and are arguably the worst team in the league.


This. Thereís a chance the Giants get out bid and are either forced to let him walk or franchise tag him.
Some 4D chess is needed  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 12/8/2019 11:19 am : link
Depends on the FA class, is it packed or bare?
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 12/8/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14707022 christian said:
Quote:

My bet is the Giants end up transition tagging Williams, and lose him to a really big contract.


I joked about this the other day.

In a losing season, trading multiple picks for a player who is a redundancy; and the we turn around and transition the player.

And we get no compensation if we don't match a contract from another bidder.

That scenario is a miscarriage of GMing. And more than enough to fire Gettleman a minute after he files the transition tag.
if they want Williams they will keep him  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 11:29 am : link
for all the bitching about how clueless Gettleman is overall people forget he's generally done a good job putting them in good position with the cap going forward. Here's a link where OTC analyzed cap space vs. estimated costs of FA and we're among the 7 teams best positioned to be able to spend, and I don't think this is including savings from cuts - which we know we have a lot of.

Quote:
The top left quadrant are the teams that one would expect to be the most active in free agency. They have tons and tons of cap room and few on the current roster worth spending it on. For teams like the Colts, Bills, Raiders, and even Ravens this presents a great opportunity to not only add to a playoff contender but to likely be able to structure contracts in free agency that leave little dead money after just one or two seasons. For teams like the Giants and Dolphins (and Bengals if they ever spent) itís a potential avenue to quickly add short term solutions to a team in desperate need of roster help.

Using the OTC Valuation to Look at 2020 Free Agency - ( New Window )
We have a good  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/8/2019 11:31 am : link
amount of cap space and Jones is on a rookie contract. Now is the time to spend. Who do we have to lock up? Also, we will have more big contracts going off the books in the next two years (Solder, Jenkins, Ogletree).

Build to win the division first. Dallas goes as the running game does. Take a look at Philly's record when they struggle to run. Both QB's need a strong running game. Washington certainly will build a running game if Haskins will have a chance with the new staff.

If they address the pass rush this offseason, I think we see big upside with competent coaching next year on D.
Cool, right back to where we were before we traded  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/8/2019 11:31 am : link
Damon Harrison, only with more self-inflicted cap problems.
RE: acquisition of Williams  
Giantz_comeback : 12/8/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14707025 leinad said:
Quote:
a good bet as far as numbers go , he is a quality starter and while not an elite player at this time well worth the chance at his age.

historic success rates 2005 - 2014


The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)

2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)

3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)

6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)

7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)


This is great perspective. We already know 100% that Williams is an above average starter at DL at minimum when you combine all his plus attributes. Can he rush the passer at a rare high level probably not but he can more than most other DL and his pressure rates are pretty good.
RE: According to the majority here....  
santacruzom : 12/8/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:
Quote:
. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations,


It seems as though you are mocking this concern, as if it has no basis in history.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 12/8/2019 11:33 am : link
In comment 14707044 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14707022 christian said:


Quote:



My bet is the Giants end up transition tagging Williams, and lose him to a really big contract.



I joked about this the other day.

In a losing season, trading multiple picks for a player who is a redundancy; and the we turn around and transition the player.

And we get no compensation if we don't match a contract from another bidder.

That scenario is a miscarriage of GMing. And more than enough to fire Gettleman a minute after he files the transition tag.


I made a mistake in my previous post, there is well over 4B, not 2B in cap space across the league over the next two years, of which the Giants have 165M.

The Colts have 260M in cap space and are on the verge of the playoffs. There are a number of teams who are a few players away from being championship contenders. Those are typically the teams willing to push the market, and it only takes one.

The more I think about it, the more you really have to be willing to franchise him and risk the fallout.
RE: RE: ...  
Giantz_comeback : 12/8/2019 11:34 am : link
In comment 14707044 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14707022 christian said:


Quote:



My bet is the Giants end up transition tagging Williams, and lose him to a really big contract.



I joked about this the other day.

In a losing season, trading multiple picks for a player who is a redundancy; and the we turn around and transition the player.

And we get no compensation if we don't match a contract from another bidder.

That scenario is a miscarriage of GMing. And more than enough to fire Gettleman a minute after he files the transition tag.


If its a 2nd round tag then we still make out on the deal.
RE: I like Williams and he is young - so he is part of the rebuild  
santacruzom : 12/8/2019 11:35 am : link
In comment 14706882 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
If we had waited for Free Agency who knows if we could have signed him or not.


But we still don't know if we can sign him or not! In a sense, we ARE still waiting for free agency.

All the trade accomplished as that we have him now, on our 2-10 shitshow.
RE: if they want Williams they will keep him  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14707050 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
for all the bitching about how clueless Gettleman is overall people forget he's generally done a good job putting them in good position with the cap going forward. Here's a link where OTC analyzed cap space vs. estimated costs of FA and we're among the 7 teams best positioned to be able to spend, and I don't think this is including savings from cuts - which we know we have a lot of.



Quote:


The top left quadrant are the teams that one would expect to be the most active in free agency. They have tons and tons of cap room and few on the current roster worth spending it on. For teams like the Colts, Bills, Raiders, and even Ravens this presents a great opportunity to not only add to a playoff contender but to likely be able to structure contracts in free agency that leave little dead money after just one or two seasons. For teams like the Giants and Dolphins (and Bengals if they ever spent) itís a potential avenue to quickly add short term solutions to a team in desperate need of roster help.

Using the OTC Valuation to Look at 2020 Free Agency - ( New Window )


Weíre in that quadrant because we donít have our own talent worth spending it on, which isnít a good thing. Basically going to attempt to redo 2016 and hope it lasts more than a year
RE: if they want Williams they will keep him  
christian : 12/8/2019 11:37 am : link
In comment 14707050 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
for all the bitching about how clueless Gettleman is overall people forget he's generally done a good job putting them in good position with the cap going forward. Here's a link where OTC analyzed cap space vs. estimated costs of FA and we're among the 7 teams best positioned to be able to spend, and I don't think this is including savings from cuts - which we know we have a lot of.



Quote:


The top left quadrant are the teams that one would expect to be the most active in free agency. They have tons and tons of cap room and few on the current roster worth spending it on. For teams like the Colts, Bills, Raiders, and even Ravens this presents a great opportunity to not only add to a playoff contender but to likely be able to structure contracts in free agency that leave little dead money after just one or two seasons. For teams like the Giants and Dolphins (and Bengals if they ever spent) itís a potential avenue to quickly add short term solutions to a team in desperate need of roster help.

Using the OTC Valuation to Look at 2020 Free Agency - ( New Window )


LOL that's fucking funny. The Giants are in good shape to add "short term" solutions? Gettleman has been doing exactly that and the Giants are literally worse than when he arrived.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 12/8/2019 11:39 am : link
In comment 14707056 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
In comment 14707044 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14707022 christian said:


Quote:



My bet is the Giants end up transition tagging Williams, and lose him to a really big contract.



I joked about this the other day.

In a losing season, trading multiple picks for a player who is a redundancy; and the we turn around and transition the player.

And we get no compensation if we don't match a contract from another bidder.

That scenario is a miscarriage of GMing. And more than enough to fire Gettleman a minute after he files the transition tag.



If its a 2nd round tag then we still make out on the deal.


That's not how it works at all. The transition tag gives a team right to match, but no compensation.

He's not a RFA, it's not a tender. If he leaves the Giants get nothing.
The Ravens have a lot of cap space?  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 11:41 am : link
We should hire one of their front office people, like Joe Horton or George Kokinis, to be DGís successor in that case.

Have you guys heard about the Ravens 20:20 program? Itís an Ozzie Newsome talent development program that has fed the entire Ravens management structure. Hire young people, train them and promote them into positions of responsibility. Their new Gm Eric DaCosta and the rest of the personnel people are mostly Ravens lifers recruited into the 20:20 program and eventually promoted into senior roles.

Ah, to have a front office with a long term plan and a track record of success.
RE: Try it out  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/8/2019 11:42 am : link
In comment 14706918 djm said:
Quote:
Someone else likely trades for Williams! And if that happens, the giants arenít signing him in the spring. Just make peace with it and move the fuck on already.

Williams isn't the type of player that you worry about signing elsewhere to such an extent that you give up draft picks to prevent it.

And you can add to that by knowing that with the massive aggregate cap room available, Williams' agent was always going to take him to FA, so the trading team would probably have to use a tag to have any control beyond this season. Now what? We get to be the team that has to use the tag on him? Oh, goody.

For a team that's competitive this year? That's a worthwhile risk if he helps this year and then ends up walking. For a team with not much cap room, that's a risk that's mitigated by a greater likelihood of recouping a comp pick. For a team that's going nowhere this season and is very unlikely to qualify for any 2021 comp picks regardless of what happens with Williams, it's a dumb risk relative to Williams' skill and value (and, quite likely, his price tag).

Williams is better than the quality of players that will probably come out of the 3rd and 4th round picks - I'm not disputing that. But he's not good enough that we should have felt compelled to not roll the dice that we could have gotten him anyway as a FA and kept our picks.

As for him improving our run defense, to the OP's point, the Jets and Bucs are the top two teams in the NFL in terms of rushing yards allowed and yards per carry. Do you feel like there's a particularly strong correlation between that and consistently winning?
RE: RE: Try it out  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 11:48 am : link

Quote:
Williams is better than the quality of players that will probably come out of the 3rd and 4th round picks - I'm not disputing that. But he's not good enough that we should have felt compelled to not roll the dice that we could have gotten him anyway as a FA and kept our picks.


This. The potential benefit given Williams play so far in his career doesnít match up with the potential cost.

Quote:
As for him improving our run defense, to the OP's point, the Jets and Bucs are the top two teams in the NFL in terms of rushing yards allowed and yards per carry. Do you feel like there's a particularly strong correlation between that and consistently winning?


Thatís because stopping the pass wins in todayís NFL. When Wade Phillips went to the Broncos he changed his philosophy and coached his defensive line to stop the run on their way to stopping the pass.
He has made the ďRUNĒ ( got it right this time)  
joeinpa : 12/8/2019 11:49 am : link
Better, that s a fact. Whether they could have gotten someone who can do that as well but cheaper, is speculative.

Also he collapses the pocket better than his critics suggest.

I like the trade when It happened, still do.
ajr - we don't have talent to resign bc Reese drafted like crap  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 11:49 am : link
and we have no good 4th and 5th year players - by definition those are the guys who are hitting UFA. That's why Reese got fired. That's just obvious known history.

Also if "having good players to resign" is a key metric of performance, ironically Carolina is in the top 5. Who was it that drafted all the key guys they need to resign (Thompson, Bradberry, Williams, Butler)?
RE: RE: Try it out  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/8/2019 11:49 am : link
In comment 14707072 Gatorade Dunk said:
[quote] In comment 14706918 djm said:


Quote:


Someone else likely trades for Williams! And if that happens, the giants arenít signing him in the spring. Just make peace with it and move the fuck on already.


Williams isn't the type of player that you worry about signing elsewhere to such an extent that you give up draft picks to prevent it.

And you can add to that by knowing that with the massive aggregate cap room available, Williams' agent was always going to take him to FA, so the trading team would probably have to use a tag to have any control beyond this season. Now what? We get to be the team that has to use the tag on him? Oh, goody.

For a team that's competitive this year? That's a worthwhile risk if he helps this year and then ends up walking. For a team with not much cap room, that's a risk that's mitigated by a greater likelihood of recouping a comp pick. For a team that's going nowhere this season and is very unlikely to qualify for any 2021 comp picks regardless of what happens with Williams, it's a dumb risk relative to Williams' skill and value (and, quite likely, his price tag).

Williams is better than the quality of players that will probably come out of the 3rd and 4th round picks - I'm not disputing that. But he's not good enough that we should have felt compelled to not roll the dice that we could have gotten him anyway as a FA and kept our picks.

As for him improving our run defense, to the OP's point, the Jets and Bucs are the top two teams in the NFL in terms of rushing yards allowed and yards per carry. Do you feel like there's a particularly strong correlation between that and consistently winning? [/quote

I don't think it's fair to use the Jets and Tampa as measuring sticks. Just about every coach worth a salt talks about doing this.

What do the teams in our Division use as the guiding force to running their offense? I can almost guarantee is focus is on winning the division.
RE: RE: if they want Williams they will keep him  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 11:52 am : link
In comment 14707061 christian said:
Quote:


LOL that's fucking funny. The Giants are in good shape to add "short term" solutions? Gettleman has been doing exactly that and the Giants are literally worse than when he arrived.


Their cap isn't worse. The amount of productive young players on 1st contracts they have isn't worse. They have more draft picks too, even with the Williams deal. So in other words text book rebuilding stuff.
Iíll keep reminding everyone  
djm : 12/8/2019 11:55 am : link
That the giants were at their best when the roster was filled with overpaid or oversized contracts. And that includes 2016.

The Knicks and giants both have glorious under the books payroll lately. And they fucking blow.

When it comes to vet talent, be it your own or someone elseís, 75% of the time youíre going to ďoverpay,Ē whatever the fuck that word even means anymore in the pro sports world. You either get the player you need at a contract you probably wonít like, or THERE IS NO PLAYER. Thatís what many of you refuse to acknowledge. Once you do, you can make peace with pro FA contracts and how it all works.
RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
mikeinbloomfield : 12/8/2019 11:56 am : link
In comment 14706860 KJG5173 said:
Quote:
In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


Because he doesnít get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. Itís comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldnít prevent them from signing anyone else they want. Itís hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.



Itís about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead theyíre getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.


You believe a team that was going to give up an asset aka draft pick was not going to resign him? And he isnít just a run stuffed. He has improved the run defense and improved qb hurries. This defense was and is not one player away from being good. But now they are one less play away from being good for a 3rd round pick. 3rd round picks might have like a 25% chance of being nfl starting players, and this 3rd round pick guarantees thatís. And I still believe the money he costs is not a factor in stopping this team from signing any other free agents they want.



But we didnít get Williams for a third round pick. We got Williams for 7 games for a third round pick. He is free to sign anywhere when the season is over, which is exactly the same as before he was traded. I donít know why it is so hard to understand that this was a dumb trade.
RE: RE: I guess Williams will be the only run stuffing 3-4 DE available in FA  
djm : 12/8/2019 11:57 am : link
In comment 14706932 KJG5173 said:
Quote:
In comment 14706901 TD said:


Quote:


Oh wait.. no he wonít. And heíll cost the #65th, pick and a fourth round pick plus a market or worse contract (bc he has all the leverage).

Horrible trade no matter how you cut it. Unless Williams were a game changer (and he is not) OR it meant they had a deal in place to re-sign him for cheap right after the trade (and they didnít) this move never made any sense.

Much like the J. Stewart signing and a whole host of other head-scratching moves by DG, somehow some fans will defend it.


Yes because teams are looking to trade ďgame changersĒ for 3rd and 4th round picks. A lot of people seem to think 3rd - 5th round picks are either hall of gamers or game changers. They are at best lotto tickets.


Randy moss and Marshall Faulk say hello. Both were traded for picks that didnít fall in the first round.

I can go on. The giants traded a second round pick for a guy that ended up winning a super bowl mvp for them.
RE: If Leonard Williams  
djm : 12/8/2019 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14706994 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Can play any position on the dline well, the Jets wouldnít have traded him for not fitting their scheme.


This is a platitude. And it canít be proven or disproven. But do really want to go there? No team, let alone the lol jets ever made a trade they later regretted? Really.

RE: Iíll keep reminding everyone  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/8/2019 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14707091 djm said:
Quote:
That the giants were at their best when the roster was filled with overpaid or oversized contracts. And that includes 2016.

The Knicks and giants both have glorious under the books payroll lately. And they fucking blow.

When it comes to vet talent, be it your own or someone elseís, 75% of the time youíre going to ďoverpay,Ē whatever the fuck that word even means anymore in the pro sports world. You either get the player you need at a contract you probably wonít like, or THERE IS NO PLAYER. Thatís what many of you refuse to acknowledge. Once you do, you can make peace with pro FA contracts and how it all works.

This is one of the dumbest fucking posts you have written, and that's saying something pretty significant.
RE: Cool, right back to where we were before we traded  
djm : 12/8/2019 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14707052 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Damon Harrison, only with more self-inflicted cap problems.


Except snacks is a descending player while Williams is entering his prime.
RE: RE: RE: if they want Williams they will keep him  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:04 pm : link
In comment 14707087 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14707061 christian said:


Quote:




LOL that's fucking funny. The Giants are in good shape to add "short term" solutions? Gettleman has been doing exactly that and the Giants are literally worse than when he arrived.



Their cap isn't worse. The amount of productive young players on 1st contracts they have isn't worse. They have more draft picks too, even with the Williams deal. So in other words text book rebuilding stuff.


The team, wins wise, is on the verge of being worse.

The team is younger and compromised of more 1st contract players. Productive is a subjective description. Many of them are playing, and many of them are playing a big role on arguably the worst team in the league. Maybe a number of them will mature into good players, maybe not.

There's an assumption that because the players are young they are bound to be good, which of course flies in the face of logic and history.

By way of overall cap latitude, the Giants actually weren't in bad shape when Gettleman took over. He chose to exchange future cap flexibility for dead money, mid round picks, and a few nice players, namely Zeitler and Peppers.

Gettleman actually handed out more guaranteed money to veterans in 2018 than Reese did in 2016. Basically nothing he did with veteran acquisitions in 2018 made the team better.

Signing Solder, Martin, Omameh, Stewart, Barwin, trading for Ogletree, extending Beckham -- none of these made the Giants better.

He's going into year 3 of a rebuild having accomplished very little other than getting much younger.

So when an article touts the Giants ability to make short term moves to bolster a bad roster, I chuckle in the same way I have the last 2 off seasons.
RE: RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
djm : 12/8/2019 12:07 pm : link
In comment 14707093 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 14706860 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


Because he doesnít get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. Itís comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldnít prevent them from signing anyone else they want. Itís hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.



Itís about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead theyíre getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.


You believe a team that was going to give up an asset aka draft pick was not going to resign him? And he isnít just a run stuffed. He has improved the run defense and improved qb hurries. This defense was and is not one player away from being good. But now they are one less play away from being good for a 3rd round pick. 3rd round picks might have like a 25% chance of being nfl starting players, and this 3rd round pick guarantees thatís. And I still believe the money he costs is not a factor in stopping this team from signing any other free agents they want.




But we didnít get Williams for a third round pick. We got Williams for 7 games for a third round pick. He is free to sign anywhere when the season is over, which is exactly the same as before he was traded. I donít know why it is so hard to understand that this was a dumb trade.


And I donít know wtf itís so hard for people to accept that the giants now have a better chance of keeping Williams here. Ever hear the expression bird in hand is better than 2 in the Bush?

They traded for him so they could keep him. Itís been said here 1000 times if itís been said once. Many here refuse to hear this.
RE: RE: Iíll keep reminding everyone  
djm : 12/8/2019 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14707105 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14707091 djm said:


Quote:


That the giants were at their best when the roster was filled with overpaid or oversized contracts. And that includes 2016.

The Knicks and giants both have glorious under the books payroll lately. And they fucking blow.

When it comes to vet talent, be it your own or someone elseís, 75% of the time youíre going to ďoverpay,Ē whatever the fuck that word even means anymore in the pro sports world. You either get the player you need at a contract you probably wonít like, or THERE IS NO PLAYER. Thatís what many of you refuse to acknowledge. Once you do, you can make peace with pro FA contracts and how it all works.


This is one of the dumbest fucking posts you have written, and that's saying something pretty significant.


Why? Itís the truth. You always post stupid. Always. Great handle. Dumb posts.

Tell me where Iím wrong. Want me to go back to the mid 2000s and conjure up all the posts bemoaning the over sized contracts here?

People always bitch over player contracts here. Constantly.
RE: damned if he does, damned if he doesn't  
Giantz_comeback : 12/8/2019 12:11 pm : link
In comment 14706989 jbeintherockies said:
Quote:

Gettleman was trying to make the defense better this year.

You only have so many options to do that:
1. Draft (happens once a year, not including supplemental draft)
2. Free agency (the players in FA are available for one reason or another)
3. Trades (the players are being traded for one reason or another)

He traded a third (and a fourth?) for a first round talent that has had a positive impact on the defense:
1. Williams is their best defensive lineman
2. He is more than a run-stuffer; he gets pressure on the QB
3. He has gap discipline
4. He can play any position along the line and play it well
5. He is a very powerful defensive lineman
6. He is in the prime of his career (25 years of age)
7. Less risk of trading for him than drafting an interior defensive lineman in the first round (they have pro film on him)
8. The Giants get a chance to see if he fits in with their defense and locker room
9. I've read Williams has leadership qualities
10. He has not been injury prone (or he plays through injuries)
11. He replaced Olsen Pierre (huge upgrade over Pierre)
12. He allows the Giants to play BJ Hill in his more natural 3-technique position

In my opinion, Leonard Williams was a good trade to help a defense that does not have much to work with.


Great post.
...  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:11 pm : link
Your assuming that's actually true. The only further leverage this gives the Giants is the ability to franchise him and force him to stay.

Now if your argument is this is a good idea, I suspect the entire logical world will disagree with you, but that's at least an intellectual plausible argument.
Why is franchise tagging Williams a  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 12:20 pm : link
Bad idea?
RE: RE: RE: Iíll keep reminding everyone  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14707122 djm said:
Quote:
Tell me where Iím wrong. Want me to go back to the mid 2000s and conjure up all the posts bemoaning the over sized contracts here?

People always bitch over player contracts here. Constantly.


Actually, a great exercise for you would be to actually go look at the UFA contracts given out by the Giants between 2005-2011 during their prolonged period of success and see how many actually were market setting or even top 5 overall at their respective positions.

The Giants, specifically Abrams earned a reputation for being tough, fair negotiators and constructing good contracts that specifically gave the Giants favorable exit scenarios.

As that era faded, and no great coincidence, the Giants became less prudent.
Christian - some elements of your post are inaccurate  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 12:23 pm : link
Mainly that a huge chunk of the cap of the roster he took over that ran through or beyond this year was tied up in declining/aging veterans - mainly Vernon, JPP, and Snacks. He was able to get draft picks (and Zeitler) for those guys but in turn has had to carry a lot of dead money. Flowers and Apple were additional dead money.

You are correct that the guys he has re-invested chunks of the cap room in that he had have not worked out. Ogletree and Kareem Martin strike me as particularly awful investments even compared to Solder, who has at least filled a difficult to fill spot. So concerns about any multi-year deals going forward are very fair.

The other chunk of dead money to OBJ for 1 year IMO was worth getting Lawrence, but also not exactly an ideal outcome. Though it may have been the best outcome possible.
RE: Why is franchise tagging Williams a  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:24 pm : link
In comment 14707134 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Bad idea?


Coming off a double digit losing campaign, with the likelihood of a new defensive system, do you believe 1 year of Williams at 18M (nearly a third of the spending power the Giants can bank against the 2020 cap) is a sound investment?

Do you think when presented with a very player friendly UFA market, Williams, will be excited to risk injury and play for a team keeping him from making at least double that in guaranteed money?
Whether you like it or not and how he got here  
David B. : 12/8/2019 12:25 pm : link
He's here -- get used to it. He may actually look a LOT better if they have some pass rushers around him that OLs have to worry about.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
mikeinbloomfield : 12/8/2019 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14707114 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14707093 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


In comment 14706860 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


Because he doesnít get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. Itís comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldnít prevent them from signing anyone else they want. Itís hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.



Itís about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead theyíre getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.


You believe a team that was going to give up an asset aka draft pick was not going to resign him? And he isnít just a run stuffed. He has improved the run defense and improved qb hurries. This defense was and is not one player away from being good. But now they are one less play away from being good for a 3rd round pick. 3rd round picks might have like a 25% chance of being nfl starting players, and this 3rd round pick guarantees thatís. And I still believe the money he costs is not a factor in stopping this team from signing any other free agents they want.




But we didnít get Williams for a third round pick. We got Williams for 7 games for a third round pick. He is free to sign anywhere when the season is over, which is exactly the same as before he was traded. I donít know why it is so hard to understand that this was a dumb trade.



And I donít know wtf itís so hard for people to accept that the giants now have a better chance of keeping Williams here. Ever hear the expression bird in hand is better than 2 in the Bush?

They traded for him so they could keep him. Itís been said here 1000 times if itís been said once. Many here refuse to hear this.


Why is he more likely to sign here? Because heís here losing every game? What if a team offers him more money? Now weíve overpaid and given away picks.

Any advantage you think the Giants have in signing after this year is all in your heads, unless you think we should use the transition tag or franchise tag, which Williams has not shown he justifies.
RE: Christian - some elements of your post are inaccurate  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14707139 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
Mainly that a huge chunk of the cap of the roster he took over that ran through or beyond this year was tied up in declining/aging veterans - mainly Vernon, JPP, and Snacks. He was able to get draft picks (and Zeitler) for those guys but in turn has had to carry a lot of dead money. Flowers and Apple were additional dead money.

You are correct that the guys he has re-invested chunks of the cap room in that he had have not worked out. Ogletree and Kareem Martin strike me as particularly awful investments even compared to Solder, who has at least filled a difficult to fill spot. So concerns about any multi-year deals going forward are very fair.

The other chunk of dead money to OBJ for 1 year IMO was worth getting Lawrence, but also not exactly an ideal outcome. Though it may have been the best outcome possible.


Gettleman accelerated that money into the 2018 and 2019 caps. When he took over management, that money was either 1) not committed or 2) spread over time.

He chose to accelerate that money, and compromise his spending power.

You can argue the roster had bad contracts on it, but it's not true he inherited limited cap space. He shed those contracts (a combination of his own and Reese's) at the expensive of space in the near term, to free up space in the long term.
Tagging him is a negotiating step towards agreeing on a long term  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 12:33 pm : link
Contract. Thatís the rational use of the tag.

Btw, Gettleman was involved in one situation, Josh Normanís, which was abnormal, with the Panthers removing the tag, making Norman a free agent.

If something like that happens, the trade becomes a truly bad one - no disagreement here - but if itís like most tag situations, it will end with the Giants signing LW.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Iíll keep reminding everyone  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14707138 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14707122 djm said:


Quote:


Tell me where Iím wrong. Want me to go back to the mid 2000s and conjure up all the posts bemoaning the over sized contracts here?

People always bitch over player contracts here. Constantly.



Actually, a great exercise for you would be to actually go look at the UFA contracts given out by the Giants between 2005-2011 during their prolonged period of success and see how many actually were market setting or even top 5 overall at their respective positions.

The Giants, specifically Abrams earned a reputation for being tough, fair negotiators and constructing good contracts that specifically gave the Giants favorable exit scenarios.

As that era faded, and no great coincidence, the Giants became less prudent.


I don't know how to look it up, but I believe the following contracts were relatively close to top of market at their times:

McKenzie
Pierce
Canty
Rolle
Boley

The biggest thing that declined between the era you mentioned above (05-11) and the 2nd half of the Reese era (12-17) was the production from draft picks. The 2007 SB roster had a ton of homegrown talent at the core (Osi, Tuck, Snee, Diehl, Eli, Jacobs, Webster, Bradshaw). The 2011 SB roster too (the group above plus Nicks, Cruz, JPP, Phillips, Joseph). I believe every guy in parenthesis there made at least 1 pro bowl and started for at least 3 years here.

I don't know how it's not abundantly clear that the #1 reason for this team's failures are directly linked to the lack of production from the 2011-2017 drafts. Using those same 2 criteria I believe the only players who fit the bill on the day Reese guy fired were OBJ and Collins.

It's why Reese was rightfully fired, albeit too late, and created a hole we are still digging out of (articulated in having a low amount of $ expected to FA to be because our 2015/16 draft classes tanked).
RE: Tagging him is a negotiating step towards agreeing on a long term  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:37 pm : link
In comment 14707161 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Contract. Thatís the rational use of the tag.

Btw, Gettleman was involved in one situation, Josh Normanís, which was abnormal, with the Panthers removing the tag, making Norman a free agent.

If something like that happens, the trade becomes a truly bad one - no disagreement here - but if itís like most tag situations, it will end with the Giants signing LW.


What if the market for LW is markedly higher than what the Giants value him at?

Would you agree with more than 4B in open space over the next 2 years (with at least 7 of the teams with more spending room than the Giants in the playoff hunt this year) -- there is a good chance the demand for a good not great player like Williams might be pushed pretty high?

Do you think LW will sign for a lower than market deal?
RE: RE: Christian - some elements of your post are inaccurate  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 12:39 pm : link
In comment 14707154 christian said:
Quote:

Gettleman accelerated that money into the 2018 and 2019 caps. When he took over management, that money was either 1) not committed or 2) spread over time.

He chose to accelerate that money, and compromise his spending power.

You can argue the roster had bad contracts on it, but it's not true he inherited limited cap space. He shed those contracts (a combination of his own and Reese's) at the expensive of space in the near term, to free up space in the long term.


On this we agree, he made an active choice to pursue this strategy - but isn't shedding long term bad $ at the expense of short term pain text book rebuild?
DG tagged Kawan Short in Feb 2017 (1 year after Norman fiasco)  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 12:44 pm : link
they will do the same with Williams if they can't find a compromise on an extension.

The Jets paid Williams $14m this year on his 5th year option. Tagging him is not all that different of a result. And if we decide to trade him next year, just as the Jets did, I'd imagine there will be an option to trade him just as they did.

I've said it 1m times but I'd rather tag LW than sign him to get 1 more year of games before deciding on him long term.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Iíll keep reminding everyone  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:44 pm : link
In comment 14707168 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14707138 christian said:


Quote:


In comment 14707122 djm said:


Quote:


Tell me where Iím wrong. Want me to go back to the mid 2000s and conjure up all the posts bemoaning the over sized contracts here?

People always bitch over player contracts here. Constantly.



Actually, a great exercise for you would be to actually go look at the UFA contracts given out by the Giants between 2005-2011 during their prolonged period of success and see how many actually were market setting or even top 5 overall at their respective positions.

The Giants, specifically Abrams earned a reputation for being tough, fair negotiators and constructing good contracts that specifically gave the Giants favorable exit scenarios.

As that era faded, and no great coincidence, the Giants became less prudent.



I don't know how to look it up, but I believe the following contracts were relatively close to top of market at their times:

McKenzie
Pierce
Canty
Rolle
Boley

The biggest thing that declined between the era you mentioned above (05-11) and the 2nd half of the Reese era (12-17) was the production from draft picks. The 2007 SB roster had a ton of homegrown talent at the core (Osi, Tuck, Snee, Diehl, Eli, Jacobs, Webster, Bradshaw). The 2011 SB roster too (the group above plus Nicks, Cruz, JPP, Phillips, Joseph). I believe every guy in parenthesis there made at least 1 pro bowl and started for at least 3 years here.

I don't know how it's not abundantly clear that the #1 reason for this team's failures are directly linked to the lack of production from the 2011-2017 drafts. Using those same 2 criteria I believe the only players who fit the bill on the day Reese guy fired were OBJ and Collins.

It's why Reese was rightfully fired, albeit too late, and created a hole we are still digging out of (articulated in having a low amount of $ expected to FA to be because our 2015/16 draft classes tanked).


The Giants are in a historically bad era because they both have drafted poorly and invested poorly in veteran acquisitions.

That's how you get 3 straight and 5 out 6 double digit loss years.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Iíll keep reminding everyone  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 12:48 pm : link
In comment 14707183 christian said:
Quote:


The Giants are in a historically bad era because they both have drafted poorly and invested poorly in veteran acquisitions.

That's how you get 3 straight and 5 out 6 double digit loss years.


Again, no disagreement on that. But DG was absent for a huge chunk of that yet treated like he is solely to blame. His 2 drafts have been a big step in the right direction. And he's cleaned up the cap. His veteran pickups have mostly sucked but some have been good (both Goldens).
The cap didnt need to be cleaned up before he got his hands  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/8/2019 12:50 pm : link
On the roster.
Christian  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 12:50 pm : link
I have to believe the Giants have a good idea about what LWís comp will need to be and consider it fair, given their view of his play.

If the 2020 market proves much richer than expected, thatís actually a plus for the trade, as they will have an advantage in holding down LWís comp (because they have the ability to franchise tag him). One wrinkle is whether to use the exclusive or non-exclusive forms of the tag. The exclusive variety forces them to pay him more but prevents him from testing the market.

Iím linking to an article on Kawann Shorts 2017 contract, which DG negotiated and which looks like a comparable situation to this one. The tag there was non-exclusive and it looks like no other team tried to snatch Short away from the Panthers.
Kawann Short - ( New Window )
RE: The cap didnt need to be cleaned up before he got his hands  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 12:56 pm : link
In comment 14707199 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
On the roster.


Yes it did - 30%+ of it was on aging and declining players like JPP, Vernon, Snacks. And failed high picks like Flowers/Apple.
...  
christian : 12/8/2019 1:01 pm : link
I can't believe the Giants are in a position to entertain the risk and headache of a good not very good player like Williams in a franchise tag scenario.

That distinction should be held for the very best of players.

The Giants best case scenario is to get out of this signing a good not very good player to a contract that doesn't push the top of the market.

This is silly.

We  
AcidTest : 12/8/2019 1:16 pm : link
were already out of contention when the trade was made, and the cost was likely pick #65 or #66 on a team with a lot of holes, and GM who stubbornly refuses to ever trade down. There is also a real concern that DG will overpay Williams to justify the draft capital he spent to get him. I was initially OK with the trade, but it was a bad move.
Williams is a good player I'll reserve judgement on the trade...  
Torrag : 12/8/2019 1:20 pm : link
until I see how it plays out. Personally I'd like to retain him but numbers matter. If they can sign him now at fair value or tag him for leverage then extend him at a reasonable number that would make sense. Obviously trading multiple picks in a losing season then having the player walk would be a failure.
.  
Bill2 : 12/8/2019 1:39 pm : link
Imo, this is hardly 1/2/3 on the debit side of DG's record.

If we got Williams in the 3rd round it would be an odds defining draft choice. One of the holes is a pass rush.

As a poster said above, pass rushing is harder than it used to be ( many offenses are designed to get the ball out quicker) and it requires pressure from the ends and the middle.

The DL/OLB are 1-2 players away.

If the contract is not outrageous (of course it will be to those who already have a conclusion and shove every not yet proven data point into the negative column) this is not the big issue or one of the next critical items to get right in 2020

DT is one of the positions, like DB, or OT that takes more than one year to round into full ability. Lets see what we have in DL next year. With Tomlinson and Hill it could be a good rotation once you add one pass rusher.

There isn't a fast or good solution for bad when their are 7 draft slots per year ( with an overall NFL abysmal success rate once below the 3rd round) and 53 positions ( plus 6-10 to account for in season injuries) and an average of 3.8 years of tenure.

Amazing sense of realistic expectations on a site that specializes in "analysis".

Judging that is long past time tired of losing overall is not the same as its time to judge each slice and aspect of that result. Negative confirmation bias and foreshortened assessment period are just two more ways things can stay bad

imo

RE: Why is franchise tagging Williams a  
bw in dc : 12/8/2019 1:48 pm : link
In comment 14707134 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Bad idea?


I'll tell you why it's a bad idea. Because LS is not worth the cap space. He's really nothing special. He's a redundancy at a position where we appear to have some pretty good parts.

The expected FT for DTs is going to be close to $16M. I can think of a few more positions where that money could be invested instead...
...  
christian : 12/8/2019 1:58 pm : link
Bill, my view is Williams has played 5 years and is has shown to touch the "good" column as a pass rusher in a few not all of those years. But let's for argument sake round him up to the good column as a benefit of maturation and assumed better scenery, and add in he has a clear good impact on the run game.

He's definitely not in the very good, or great category. Good player, and the type of player the Giants need.

I actually don't care about the pick(s), sunk cost. I hope management doesn't care either. The picks and perception are baggage, and only play into the emotional component now. Management should signal to his reps the picks don't mean shit to them, it's not leverage, don't be naive and assume it is.

The Giants need to view Williams for who he is and value him according to what they value a good, not very, no great defensive end.

If a team with more resources values him more, walk.

Too many players on the roster Gettleman "had to pay," "had no alternative," "needed for stabilizing."
RE: The cap didnt need to be cleaned up before he got his hands  
Thankyoueli : 12/8/2019 2:02 pm : link
In comment 14707199 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
On the roster.


Um... wat...?
....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/8/2019 2:07 pm : link
I think Williams is a good player. I felt the same about Ogletree.

I hated both trades because I think the team needs young, cost-controlled players to begin growing. Trading picks for those guys when the team (in my view) is so far away strikes me as poor decision making.

Especially in the Williams case when he's going to be a free agent.
RE: .  
bw in dc : 12/8/2019 2:09 pm : link
In comment 14707299 Bill2 said:
Quote:


If we got Williams in the 3rd round it would be an odds defining draft choice. One of the holes is a pass rush.




Yeah, we really improved the pass rush with LW. He's been averaging a robust 3.5 sacks/yr over his five years in the NFL. And he's hot this year with zero.

Definitely on the fast track to Canton...

Good player  
AcesUp : 12/8/2019 2:09 pm : link
Collassally stupid trade that should have people questioning the decision making of the triggerman. Holes all over the place when he gets here on a roster that actually has Tomlinson and Snacks on the interior and he's already spent 1/3 of our draft picks (that are now forced to the bench), two future draft picks and presumably a large contract on run stuffing interior DL in a passing league. So we're left with a potentially solid run d that teams can gash through the air for 30+ points a game. Great.

Really looking forward to the brand new coaching staff that has even less of a need for 300lb defensive lineman than the current scheme that is one of the few that actually favor the position.
....  
BrettNYG10 : 12/8/2019 2:10 pm : link
Mid-round picks are call options - low probability of success. I don't think the Giants should be selling those assets for someone like Williams or Ogletree.
RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
EricJ : 12/8/2019 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:
Quote:


They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.


Really? you know this? Just because there is a list of potential free agents on the internet somewhere, it does not mean the Giants have a shot at signing them.

Who wants to play for this team? This is not an attractive place to play which means we have to over pay to get players to come here.

You are either signing with a team for a chance to win a championship, or you are signing with them because they are paying the most $$. It is that simple
Pass Rush .  
Bluesbreaker : 12/8/2019 2:12 pm : link
Draft Chase Young
Free Agent's Yannick Ngakoue and Marcus Golden .
We still need a MLB tackling machine and a FS
I think with the decent DT's we have the Defense
will be a real strength would like to see
Hill play better but if we get Young plenty
of reason to be positive .
RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
christian : 12/8/2019 3:01 pm : link
In comment 14707362 EricJ said:
Quote:
In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:


Quote:




They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.




Really? you know this? Just because there is a list of potential free agents on the internet somewhere, it does not mean the Giants have a shot at signing them.

Who wants to play for this team? This is not an attractive place to play which means we have to over pay to get players to come here.

You are either signing with a team for a chance to win a championship, or you are signing with them because they are paying the most $$. It is that simple


My personal view is to not build at the top end of free agency until you are confident in your core group.

Paying the most money for the luxury of being the highest bidder, while your roster is lean just never feels like the right answer.

Leonard Williams isn't the only lineman who could make the Giants better. If he wants more than the Giants value him at, they need to let him walk.

The Giants aren't Leonard Williams away from the playoffs.
.  
Bill2 : 12/8/2019 3:37 pm : link
waste someone else's time
christian  
Bill2 : 12/8/2019 3:58 pm : link
I don't think he is a great player by any stretch.

My point it that as we Giants fans know more than most, a good pass rush against a playoff level OL requires several things:

1) More than 3 players who are well able to penetrate. All three help each other

2) Penetration from up the middle and the edges. ( Some qb's are average fore a QB on timing and eye when there is edge pressure but drop their eyes if it comes up the center. Witness Eli as one example)

3) A rotation that can still pressure late in the season when 1-2 ot the top guys no longer have their legs for the whole game.

When we had all 3 we won in 2007. In 2008, the reason some analysts thought we did not go as far as our early season promise indicated, was not just the Plaxico crap but because our DL ran out of gas in the last few games and did not have the legs as a unit.

So do I think Williams is the pass rusher we need? Do I confuse him with Donald? Not at all.

Depending on the contract he might be a better than average DT and DT's are not easy to find. We especially know that it is unlikely that they get better in round 3. They also take awhile to get better (hence my hope that Dexter Lawrence gets better in year 2 and 3).

Now, I see a lot of folks pining for an edge rusher and in particular, hoping for such in round 1.

Not going to be fun watch said prize draft choice get doubled and chipped with nothing to show for it for the entire NYG.

Now, did we have to trade a 3rd to get Williams? Separate issue and separate target for our ire. imo, lets separate Williams the player from Williams the off season contract from DG the trader. Three different things, imo. Better analysis of whats right and wrong follows keeping oranges , apples and bananas apart.

Make sense christian?

PS: Hope you are well

.  
Bill2 : 12/8/2019 4:00 pm : link
average to fine...not "fore"
christian  
Bill2 : 12/8/2019 4:06 pm : link
Its usually 7 picks every year. The NFl averages below 20% after round 3.

So filling a 53 player roster when the average tenure is 3.9 years takes 1) time and some FA (of which some play to contract ( Rolle, Pierce, Plax and McKenzie) and most do not.

The game is built to entrance those who can stay frustrated for most years out of 10.

For me, its losing interest as an entertainment product and I don't see how it lasts past the first serious penetrations of the injury lawyers
...  
christian : 12/8/2019 4:13 pm : link
Agreed. Good player who fits a need and will be a multiplier.

As posted above, the pick is gone, and hopefully out the equation. My view on Gettleman is declining, but an argument for another thread.

The question is value, an unknown number to us fans, but a number I hope the Giants management sticks to, regardless of the acquisition cost.

I fear this is an outlying bad market to shop, with a lot of good teams at the top of the spending pool. There are 5-7 teams with significant cap room, who are a Williams away from winning one or more playoff games.

Hope you are well too, Bill.
christian  
Bill2 : 12/8/2019 4:38 pm : link
Exactly,

To get FA OL this year is likely an overpay by any GM trying it and some risky players ( OL injuries make me nervous (Conklin))
I liked the trade... IF...  
Johnny5 : 12/8/2019 8:38 pm : link
they signed him. Not signing him didn't make any sense.
Fortunately, we will know what base defense they will play  
Ivan15 : 12/8/2019 11:25 pm : link
before they have to make Williams an offer.
Peop continue to torture logic in an attempt to prove the Giants right  
jcn56 : 12/8/2019 11:40 pm : link
On the one hand, they argue the Giants need to grow organically by drafting better and that they won't build the team via FA (a continual knock at Reese's last stand in 2016)...

..and on the other, they're OK with forking over a high 3rd and 4th round pick for the right to either franchise a player who's made a grand total of 1 Pro Bowl in 5 years (assuming he doesn't make it this year), isn't known for being a pass rusher, and has never been an All Pro.

Build the team via the draft does not equal trade away two picks and overpay for a guy who you're hoping will develop into more than he's shown in 5 years to date.
JCN re: the need for picks  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 12:01 am : link
you are correct - the worst aspect of the LW trade is losing the pick. That's in part why I hope they tag LW and just treat him like a rental for next year (with an option to obviously extend). See how he looks in 2020 and if he isn't clearly a core player recoup the pick. Or let him play out the year and let him walk for a comp pick.

The way the league works now it's a lot easier to recycle assets to get picks than it used to be. I don't mind leveraging mid-round picks to avoid needing to make too many massive overpays via FA with long term risk for unproven players.
Tagging him is even worse  
jcn56 : 12/9/2019 12:05 am : link
What you call recouping the pick would require that either someone trade the Giants a high 3rd and 4th to break even, or they're out one or more of those picks AND a year of FT salary at the DT position.

The only way any of this works is if Williams is a break out player who has underperformed to this point in his career. That's a big bet to make on a guy who has been a solid but inconsistent player for 5 years in the NFL.
On the other hand  
crick n NC : 12/9/2019 7:52 am : link
Some posters "torture" logic in an attempt to prove the giants wrong. Then some posters are waiting until they have results that are satisfying to form an opinion.
Williams says heís sick of losing  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 7:52 am : link
Quote:
ďI know that I want to get a big contract, and I know that I am worth a lot,Ē Williams said, adding that itís ďdefinitely a logical possibility" that he will test free agency.


So much for being easier to sign him
RE: On the other hand  
jcn56 : 12/9/2019 7:55 am : link
In comment 14708081 crick n NC said:
Quote:
Some posters "torture" logic in an attempt to prove the giants wrong. Then some posters are waiting until they have results that are satisfying to form an opinion.


An easy question for you - can you remember the last time a losing team made a trade like this midseason?

The Giants keep trying to outsmart the league, and the results keep showing that they should stop.
RE: RE: On the other hand  
crick n NC : 12/9/2019 7:58 am : link
In comment 14708085 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708081 crick n NC said:


Quote:


Some posters "torture" logic in an attempt to prove the giants wrong. Then some posters are waiting until they have results that are satisfying to form an opinion.



An easy question for you - can you remember the last time a losing team made a trade like this midseason?

The Giants keep trying to outsmart the league, and the results keep showing that they should stop.


I'll wait until I know it's a failure or a success before labeling it as such.
Iím glad this thread was started  
5BowlsSoon : 12/9/2019 8:00 am : link
To give us a fuller perspective on his worth. Itís not all about sacks.
More from Williams  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 8:08 am : link
Quote:
ďIf I donít think theyíre giving me what I think Iím worth, then obviously I think hitting free agency would make sense,Ē Williams said. "Everything is going to have to match up.

ďI definitely think Iím a top-tier interior defensive lineman, in that top percentage of the d-linemen. I wouldnít say Aaron Donald [level]. But I would definitely put myself up there with a lot of those other top guys.Ē
All reasonable  
crick n NC : 12/9/2019 8:09 am : link
And expected from Williams.
RE: All reasonable  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 8:17 am : link
In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:
Quote:
And expected from Williams.


Expected? Sure.

Reasonable? Far from it. Heís not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given heís already threatening to walk.
RE: According to the majority here....  
BigBlueJuice : 12/9/2019 8:22 am : link
Notbsure how you are already able to predict the price for Williams at end of year. Most great DTs like suh, donald make 15 to 20 for elite status. I see Williams being like Harrison 8 to 12 given performance. Probably 10 to resign.

In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:
Quote:
Because he doesnít get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. Itís comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldnít prevent them from signing anyone else they want. Itís hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.
RE: RE: The cap didnt need to be cleaned up before he got his hands  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2019 8:23 am : link
In comment 14707341 Thankyoueli said:
Quote:
In comment 14707199 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


On the roster.



Um... wat...?

Clearly you feel otherwise - care to explain?

The worst contracts that the Giants have had to clean up were either contracts that Gettleman himself gave out, or contracts that Gettleman chose not to clean up anyway and left on the books.

What cap killers did he actually get rid of? Snacks? Vernon? Apple was cheap and would have been coming off the books this offseason anyway (assuming the Giants would not have picked up his 5th year option if the only goal was to get rid of him). Flowers was a failure but would have been off the books now too. Ellison is a bad contract but it's still on the books, with additional guaranteed money pressed forward because of this year's dead money. You can make the case that Eli should have been cut this offseason but wasn't.

Meanwhile, Gettleman's original hog mollies, Solder and Omameh, represent a cap albatross and a dead money sinkhole. We-didn't-sign-him-to-trade-him OBJ became a huge red number on this year's cap. Stewart was a waste. Barwin was useless. Bethea is stealing money.

There is no logical argument that anyone can make at this point that Gettleman's cap efforts have been to clean up anyone's mess more than his own.
RE: Whether you like it or not and how he got here  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2019 8:25 am : link
In comment 14707141 David B. said:
Quote:
He's here -- get used to it. He may actually look a LOT better if they have some pass rushers around him that OLs have to worry about.

No, that's specifically not the point of a discussion forum. We actually can have a discussion about whether a move that was already made makes any sense. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities.
RE: RE: All reasonable  
crick n NC : 12/9/2019 8:27 am : link
In comment 14708117 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:


Quote:


And expected from Williams.



Expected? Sure.

Reasonable? Far from it. Heís not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given heís already threatening to walk.


He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.
RE: RE: RE: All reasonable  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 8:36 am : link
In comment 14708135 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 14708117 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:


Quote:


And expected from Williams.



Expected? Sure.

Reasonable? Far from it. Heís not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given heís already threatening to walk.



He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.


I mean whatever.

Heís unreasonable because he thinks he should be paid just below the Aaron Donald level. Thatís literally the definition of unreasonable thinking
RE: All reasonable  
christian : 12/9/2019 8:36 am : link
In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:
Quote:
And expected from Williams.


I wonder if Williams's team views him in the echelon above Grady Jarret. Similar player and age, who netted 4/68M.

The shopping pool is huge this year, I'd expect there be an adjustment in the market.
RE: RE: RE: RE: All reasonable  
crick n NC : 12/9/2019 8:44 am : link
In comment 14708147 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708135 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 14708117 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:


Quote:


And expected from Williams.



Expected? Sure.

Reasonable? Far from it. Heís not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given heís already threatening to walk.



He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.



I mean whatever.

Heís unreasonable because he thinks he should be paid just below the Aaron Donald level. Thatís literally the definition of unreasonable thinking


When he gets his contract you will know where his thinking is.
RE: RE: All reasonable  
crick n NC : 12/9/2019 8:45 am : link
In comment 14708149 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:


Quote:


And expected from Williams.



I wonder if Williams's team views him in the echelon above Grady Jarret. Similar player and age, who netted 4/68M.

The shopping pool is huge this year, I'd expect there be an adjustment in the market.


Christian, it certainly is going to be interesting how this plays out. I'm very intrigued.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: All reasonable  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 8:46 am : link
In comment 14708159 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 14708147 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14708135 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 14708117 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:


Quote:


And expected from Williams.



Expected? Sure.

Reasonable? Far from it. Heís not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given heís already threatening to walk.



He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.



I mean whatever.

Heís unreasonable because he thinks he should be paid just below the Aaron Donald level. Thatís literally the definition of unreasonable thinking



When he gets his contract you will know where his thinking is.


Thatís not how it works. He thinks heís worth a lot, heís not just saying that to max his contract value out - he legitimately thinks it.

What he ends up signing for is what a team was willing to give him, not what he thinks heís worth.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: All reasonable  
crick n NC : 12/9/2019 8:48 am : link
In comment 14708164 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708159 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 14708147 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14708135 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 14708117 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:


Quote:


And expected from Williams.



Expected? Sure.

Reasonable? Far from it. Heís not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given heís already threatening to walk.



He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.



I mean whatever.

Heís unreasonable because he thinks he should be paid just below the Aaron Donald level. Thatís literally the definition of unreasonable thinking



When he gets his contract you will know where his thinking is.



Thatís not how it works. He thinks heís worth a lot, heís not just saying that to max his contract value out - he legitimately thinks it.

What he ends up signing for is what a team was willing to give him, not what he thinks heís worth.


It's all a part of negotiations.
Whether is all part of negotiations  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 8:52 am : link
Is irrelevant. He thinks he should be paid well. Whether thatís him thinking heís worth $18 million and is shooting for $20 million doesnít matter.

Anything over $12 million is unreasonable for Williams and erases the reasoning that they had to trade for him because it would be easier to keep him.
...  
christian : 12/9/2019 8:57 am : link
One point I made above that I hope the Giants are considering, is the amount of money available in the near term spending pool, and whether a team literally starting from the bottom should be shopping aggressively.

There is over 4B in cap space in the league over the next 2 years. Typically the first 2 years of a contract hold the most fully guaranteed money.

There are teams like the Colts, Bills, Ravens, Patriots, Cowboys, and Raiders with huge sums to spend, and are all in the hunt right now.

If there is ever a time to spend up the market it's when you 1) have a bunch of money and 2) are good.

There is going to be a very rich market for him, I hope the Giants have a number and stick to it. He's not a great player, not the type of player you get in a bidding or a franchise tag pissing match over.

And the last the thing the Giants should do is make a poor decision because of having traded for him.
The argument that he's not worth a 3rd rnd pick...  
Johnny5 : 12/9/2019 9:00 am : link
... is pretty silly. The guy can play and personally I'd love to add him as a core player while adding some more (and better) pure pass rushing talent.

And he put BJ into a rotational role. Our DL has been the best part of the team over the past few games. We don't have enough pure pass rushing, and obviously we know how poor our LB and secondary is.

The ONLY reason I would scratch my head on that trade is Why in the hell are we giving up a pick when he isn't signed.
RE: Whether is all part of negotiations  
crick n NC : 12/9/2019 9:01 am : link
In comment 14708172 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Is irrelevant. He thinks he should be paid well. Whether thatís him thinking heís worth $18 million and is shooting for $20 million doesnít matter.

Anything over $12 million is unreasonable for Williams and erases the reasoning that they had to trade for him because it would be easier to keep him.


You and I aren't going to see eye to eye on this
My whole point is when he signs his contract then we will know. You are arguing that we know already. I don't agree with that.
The only wait and see relative to Williams is going to be a  
Jimmy Googs : 12/9/2019 9:02 am : link
painful hit to how we allocate salaries on a roster that is nowhere close to winning yet.

This deal was foolish...
RE: RE: Whether is all part of negotiations  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 9:27 am : link
In comment 14708186 crick n NC said:
Quote:
In comment 14708172 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Is irrelevant. He thinks he should be paid well. Whether thatís him thinking heís worth $18 million and is shooting for $20 million doesnít matter.

Anything over $12 million is unreasonable for Williams and erases the reasoning that they had to trade for him because it would be easier to keep him.



You and I aren't going to see eye to eye on this
My whole point is when he signs his contract then we will know. You are arguing that we know already. I don't agree with that.


No Iím arguing that Williams has a high value of himself and signing isnít going to be easier or cheaper because we traded for him.

You can keep ďwaiting and seeingĒ and trusting this front office but I wonít. Theyíre incompetent
RE: RE: RE: Whether is all part of negotiations  
crick n NC : 12/9/2019 9:31 am : link
In comment 14708227 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708186 crick n NC said:


Quote:


In comment 14708172 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Is irrelevant. He thinks he should be paid well. Whether thatís him thinking heís worth $18 million and is shooting for $20 million doesnít matter.

Anything over $12 million is unreasonable for Williams and erases the reasoning that they had to trade for him because it would be easier to keep him.



You and I aren't going to see eye to eye on this
My whole point is when he signs his contract then we will know. You are arguing that we know already. I don't agree with that.



No Iím arguing that Williams has a high value of himself and signing isnít going to be easier or cheaper because we traded for him.

You can keep ďwaiting and seeingĒ and trusting this front office but I wonít. Theyíre incompetent


I never said I trust the FO. I like to wait before celebrating a success or lamenting a failure. It's that simple.
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