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Giants fun defense since acquisition of Williams, 2.7 ypc

joeinpa : 12/8/2019 8:59 am
Against some pretty good backs. So, why has there been as much negativity directed towards this player/ and move as there has been.

Last I checked stopping the run is A staple of good defense
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Pass rusher or two  
giant power : 12/8/2019 10:46 am : link
The Niner's front seven was loaded with high draft pick run stoppers till Nick Bosa and Dee Ford came onto the scene this season. Anyone check out Armstead's numbers? The dude has 10 sacks, 3 more than his first 4 years in the league combined. They say a rising tide raises all boats. These two additions have amounted to a tidal wave.
Delete this thread  
Bradshaw's Decal : 12/8/2019 10:54 am : link
It doesn't fit the anti Gentleman narrative.
Recent third round picks, FWIW...  
dannysection 313 : 12/8/2019 11:00 am : link
2019-Oshane Ximines
2018-Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill
2017-Davis Webb
2016-Darian Thompson
2015-Owamagbe Odighizuwa
2014-Damontre Moore

Not exactly a Murderer's Row...

Just part of the conversation to consider. Of course, another GM might have done better.
...  
christian : 12/8/2019 11:05 am : link
It's a good trade if a number of improbable scenarios all go right for the Giants.

Of the 12 teams with more cap room than the Giants over the next 2 years, 7 are in the playoff hunt this year.

Williams is a good not very good player, but what if his market accelerates because a team views adding a few good players gets them in championship contention?

What if the market does command 15-17M a year. If your the Bills maybe that's worth it. Is that worth it to the Giants?

If there is a market that exceeds the Giants value, do the Giants franchise him? Do you think after 8 weeks of this chaos and being blocked from a lucrative deal is going to make him happy and excited to stay?

I suspect the market for Williams will be quite expensive because of the amount of money available out there, and the Giants would be better to invest in 2 mid marker UFAs.

My bet is the Giants end up transition tagging Williams, and lose him to a really big contract.
Let me put it this way; if the Giants were to pick a DT...  
sb from NYT Forum : 12/8/2019 11:06 am : link
...with pick #65 I'd be pissed.
acquisition of Williams  
leinad : 12/8/2019 11:08 am : link
a good bet as far as numbers go , he is a quality starter and while not an elite player at this time well worth the chance at his age.

historic success rates 2005 - 2014


The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)

2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)

3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)

6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)

7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)

RE: Recent third round picks, FWIW...  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 11:08 am : link
In comment 14707015 dannysection 313 said:
Quote:
2019-Oshane Ximines
2018-Lorenzo Carter and BJ Hill
2017-Davis Webb
2016-Darian Thompson
2015-Owamagbe Odighizuwa
2014-Damontre Moore

Not exactly a Murderer's Row...

Just part of the conversation to consider. Of course, another GM might have done better.


But recent third round picks throughout the league include

Alvin Kamara
Cooper Kupp
Devin Singletary
Orlando Brown
Ronnie Harrison
Dan Feeney
Derrick Nandi
Chris Godwin
Fred Warner
Justin Lane
Kevin Byard

And a good amount of other contributing players. Just because the Giants have failed in the third doesnt mean the picks aren’t valuable
Until Williams signs his extension  
HomerJones45 : 12/8/2019 11:13 am : link
This is an 8 game rental by a team going nowhere and an admission that spending 1/3 of our draft picks on d-linemen has not produced. And once he signs such an extension, you will see whether there was wink, wink or hoodwinked.
...  
christian : 12/8/2019 11:14 am : link
Forget the 3rd and 4th round pick for a moment -- the real question is 1) how much should the Giants be willing to invest and 2) are the Giants wise to franchise him?

If Williams commands more than what the Giants value him or they aren't willing to franchise him, the trade is a loss no matter the assets traded.

I think there will be a lot of fans shocked how much Williams commands.

There is well over 2B in open cap space in the league over the next 2 years. The Giants have a fraction of it and are arguably the worst team in the league.
RE: ...  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 11:16 am : link
In comment 14707033 christian said:
Quote:
Forget the 3rd and 4th round pick for a moment -- the real question is 1) how much should the Giants be willing to invest and 2) are the Giants wise to franchise him?

If Williams commands more than what the Giants value him or they aren't willing to franchise him, the trade is a loss no matter the assets traded.

I think there will be a lot of fans shocked how much Williams commands.

There is well over 2B in open cap space in the league over the next 2 years. The Giants have a fraction of it and are arguably the worst team in the league.


This. There’s a chance the Giants get out bid and are either forced to let him walk or franchise tag him.
Some 4D chess is needed  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 12/8/2019 11:19 am : link
Depends on the FA class, is it packed or bare?
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 12/8/2019 11:20 am : link
In comment 14707022 christian said:
Quote:

My bet is the Giants end up transition tagging Williams, and lose him to a really big contract.


I joked about this the other day.

In a losing season, trading multiple picks for a player who is a redundancy; and the we turn around and transition the player.

And we get no compensation if we don't match a contract from another bidder.

That scenario is a miscarriage of GMing. And more than enough to fire Gettleman a minute after he files the transition tag.
if they want Williams they will keep him  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 11:29 am : link
for all the bitching about how clueless Gettleman is overall people forget he's generally done a good job putting them in good position with the cap going forward. Here's a link where OTC analyzed cap space vs. estimated costs of FA and we're among the 7 teams best positioned to be able to spend, and I don't think this is including savings from cuts - which we know we have a lot of.

Quote:
The top left quadrant are the teams that one would expect to be the most active in free agency. They have tons and tons of cap room and few on the current roster worth spending it on. For teams like the Colts, Bills, Raiders, and even Ravens this presents a great opportunity to not only add to a playoff contender but to likely be able to structure contracts in free agency that leave little dead money after just one or two seasons. For teams like the Giants and Dolphins (and Bengals if they ever spent) it’s a potential avenue to quickly add short term solutions to a team in desperate need of roster help.

Using the OTC Valuation to Look at 2020 Free Agency - ( New Window )
We have a good  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/8/2019 11:31 am : link
amount of cap space and Jones is on a rookie contract. Now is the time to spend. Who do we have to lock up? Also, we will have more big contracts going off the books in the next two years (Solder, Jenkins, Ogletree).

Build to win the division first. Dallas goes as the running game does. Take a look at Philly's record when they struggle to run. Both QB's need a strong running game. Washington certainly will build a running game if Haskins will have a chance with the new staff.

If they address the pass rush this offseason, I think we see big upside with competent coaching next year on D.
Cool, right back to where we were before we traded  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/8/2019 11:31 am : link
Damon Harrison, only with more self-inflicted cap problems.
RE: acquisition of Williams  
Giantz_comeback : 12/8/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14707025 leinad said:
Quote:
a good bet as far as numbers go , he is a quality starter and while not an elite player at this time well worth the chance at his age.

historic success rates 2005 - 2014


The numbers show us the following outline for finding consistent starters:

1st Round - OL (83%) LB (70%) TE (67%) DB (64%) QB (63%) WR (58%) RB (58%) DL (58%)

2nd Round - OL (70%) LB (55%) TE (50%) WR (49%) DB (46%) QB (27%) DL (26%) RB (25%)

3rd Round - OL (40%) TE (39%) LB (34%) DL (27%) WR (25%) DB (24%) QB (17%) RB (16%)

4th Round - DL (37%) TE (33%) OL (29%) LB (16%) WR(12%) DB (11%) RB (11%) QB (8%)

5th Round - TE (32%) DB (17%) WR (16%) OL (16%) DL (13%) RB (9%) LB (4%) QB (0%)

6th Round - TE (26%) OL (16%) DL (13%) WR (9%) DB (8%) RB (6%) LB (5%) QB (0%)

7th Round - DB (11%) OL (9%) QB (6%) WR (5%) DL (3%) LB (2%) RB (0%) TE (0%)


This is great perspective. We already know 100% that Williams is an above average starter at DL at minimum when you combine all his plus attributes. Can he rush the passer at a rare high level probably not but he can more than most other DL and his pressure rates are pretty good.
RE: According to the majority here....  
santacruzom : 12/8/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:
Quote:
. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations,


It seems as though you are mocking this concern, as if it has no basis in history.
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 12/8/2019 11:33 am : link
In comment 14707044 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14707022 christian said:


Quote:



My bet is the Giants end up transition tagging Williams, and lose him to a really big contract.



I joked about this the other day.

In a losing season, trading multiple picks for a player who is a redundancy; and the we turn around and transition the player.

And we get no compensation if we don't match a contract from another bidder.

That scenario is a miscarriage of GMing. And more than enough to fire Gettleman a minute after he files the transition tag.


I made a mistake in my previous post, there is well over 4B, not 2B in cap space across the league over the next two years, of which the Giants have 165M.

The Colts have 260M in cap space and are on the verge of the playoffs. There are a number of teams who are a few players away from being championship contenders. Those are typically the teams willing to push the market, and it only takes one.

The more I think about it, the more you really have to be willing to franchise him and risk the fallout.
RE: RE: ...  
Giantz_comeback : 12/8/2019 11:34 am : link
In comment 14707044 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14707022 christian said:


Quote:



My bet is the Giants end up transition tagging Williams, and lose him to a really big contract.



I joked about this the other day.

In a losing season, trading multiple picks for a player who is a redundancy; and the we turn around and transition the player.

And we get no compensation if we don't match a contract from another bidder.

That scenario is a miscarriage of GMing. And more than enough to fire Gettleman a minute after he files the transition tag.


If its a 2nd round tag then we still make out on the deal.
RE: I like Williams and he is young - so he is part of the rebuild  
santacruzom : 12/8/2019 11:35 am : link
In comment 14706882 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
If we had waited for Free Agency who knows if we could have signed him or not.


But we still don't know if we can sign him or not! In a sense, we ARE still waiting for free agency.

All the trade accomplished as that we have him now, on our 2-10 shitshow.
RE: if they want Williams they will keep him  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14707050 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
for all the bitching about how clueless Gettleman is overall people forget he's generally done a good job putting them in good position with the cap going forward. Here's a link where OTC analyzed cap space vs. estimated costs of FA and we're among the 7 teams best positioned to be able to spend, and I don't think this is including savings from cuts - which we know we have a lot of.



Quote:


The top left quadrant are the teams that one would expect to be the most active in free agency. They have tons and tons of cap room and few on the current roster worth spending it on. For teams like the Colts, Bills, Raiders, and even Ravens this presents a great opportunity to not only add to a playoff contender but to likely be able to structure contracts in free agency that leave little dead money after just one or two seasons. For teams like the Giants and Dolphins (and Bengals if they ever spent) it’s a potential avenue to quickly add short term solutions to a team in desperate need of roster help.

Using the OTC Valuation to Look at 2020 Free Agency - ( New Window )


We’re in that quadrant because we don’t have our own talent worth spending it on, which isn’t a good thing. Basically going to attempt to redo 2016 and hope it lasts more than a year
RE: if they want Williams they will keep him  
christian : 12/8/2019 11:37 am : link
In comment 14707050 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
for all the bitching about how clueless Gettleman is overall people forget he's generally done a good job putting them in good position with the cap going forward. Here's a link where OTC analyzed cap space vs. estimated costs of FA and we're among the 7 teams best positioned to be able to spend, and I don't think this is including savings from cuts - which we know we have a lot of.



Quote:


The top left quadrant are the teams that one would expect to be the most active in free agency. They have tons and tons of cap room and few on the current roster worth spending it on. For teams like the Colts, Bills, Raiders, and even Ravens this presents a great opportunity to not only add to a playoff contender but to likely be able to structure contracts in free agency that leave little dead money after just one or two seasons. For teams like the Giants and Dolphins (and Bengals if they ever spent) it’s a potential avenue to quickly add short term solutions to a team in desperate need of roster help.

Using the OTC Valuation to Look at 2020 Free Agency - ( New Window )


LOL that's fucking funny. The Giants are in good shape to add "short term" solutions? Gettleman has been doing exactly that and the Giants are literally worse than when he arrived.
RE: RE: RE: ...  
christian : 12/8/2019 11:39 am : link
In comment 14707056 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
In comment 14707044 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14707022 christian said:


Quote:



My bet is the Giants end up transition tagging Williams, and lose him to a really big contract.



I joked about this the other day.

In a losing season, trading multiple picks for a player who is a redundancy; and the we turn around and transition the player.

And we get no compensation if we don't match a contract from another bidder.

That scenario is a miscarriage of GMing. And more than enough to fire Gettleman a minute after he files the transition tag.



If its a 2nd round tag then we still make out on the deal.


That's not how it works at all. The transition tag gives a team right to match, but no compensation.

He's not a RFA, it's not a tender. If he leaves the Giants get nothing.
The Ravens have a lot of cap space?  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 11:41 am : link
We should hire one of their front office people, like Joe Horton or George Kokinis, to be DG’s successor in that case.

Have you guys heard about the Ravens 20:20 program? It’s an Ozzie Newsome talent development program that has fed the entire Ravens management structure. Hire young people, train them and promote them into positions of responsibility. Their new Gm Eric DaCosta and the rest of the personnel people are mostly Ravens lifers recruited into the 20:20 program and eventually promoted into senior roles.

Ah, to have a front office with a long term plan and a track record of success.
RE: Try it out  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/8/2019 11:42 am : link
In comment 14706918 djm said:
Quote:
Someone else likely trades for Williams! And if that happens, the giants aren’t signing him in the spring. Just make peace with it and move the fuck on already.

Williams isn't the type of player that you worry about signing elsewhere to such an extent that you give up draft picks to prevent it.

And you can add to that by knowing that with the massive aggregate cap room available, Williams' agent was always going to take him to FA, so the trading team would probably have to use a tag to have any control beyond this season. Now what? We get to be the team that has to use the tag on him? Oh, goody.

For a team that's competitive this year? That's a worthwhile risk if he helps this year and then ends up walking. For a team with not much cap room, that's a risk that's mitigated by a greater likelihood of recouping a comp pick. For a team that's going nowhere this season and is very unlikely to qualify for any 2021 comp picks regardless of what happens with Williams, it's a dumb risk relative to Williams' skill and value (and, quite likely, his price tag).

Williams is better than the quality of players that will probably come out of the 3rd and 4th round picks - I'm not disputing that. But he's not good enough that we should have felt compelled to not roll the dice that we could have gotten him anyway as a FA and kept our picks.

As for him improving our run defense, to the OP's point, the Jets and Bucs are the top two teams in the NFL in terms of rushing yards allowed and yards per carry. Do you feel like there's a particularly strong correlation between that and consistently winning?
RE: RE: Try it out  
ajr2456 : 12/8/2019 11:48 am : link

Quote:
Williams is better than the quality of players that will probably come out of the 3rd and 4th round picks - I'm not disputing that. But he's not good enough that we should have felt compelled to not roll the dice that we could have gotten him anyway as a FA and kept our picks.


This. The potential benefit given Williams play so far in his career doesn’t match up with the potential cost.

Quote:
As for him improving our run defense, to the OP's point, the Jets and Bucs are the top two teams in the NFL in terms of rushing yards allowed and yards per carry. Do you feel like there's a particularly strong correlation between that and consistently winning?


That’s because stopping the pass wins in today’s NFL. When Wade Phillips went to the Broncos he changed his philosophy and coached his defensive line to stop the run on their way to stopping the pass.
He has made the “RUN” ( got it right this time)  
joeinpa : 12/8/2019 11:49 am : link
Better, that s a fact. Whether they could have gotten someone who can do that as well but cheaper, is speculative.

Also he collapses the pocket better than his critics suggest.

I like the trade when It happened, still do.
ajr - we don't have talent to resign bc Reese drafted like crap  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 11:49 am : link
and we have no good 4th and 5th year players - by definition those are the guys who are hitting UFA. That's why Reese got fired. That's just obvious known history.

Also if "having good players to resign" is a key metric of performance, ironically Carolina is in the top 5. Who was it that drafted all the key guys they need to resign (Thompson, Bradberry, Williams, Butler)?
RE: RE: Try it out  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/8/2019 11:49 am : link
In comment 14707072 Gatorade Dunk said:
[quote] In comment 14706918 djm said:


Quote:


Someone else likely trades for Williams! And if that happens, the giants aren’t signing him in the spring. Just make peace with it and move the fuck on already.


Williams isn't the type of player that you worry about signing elsewhere to such an extent that you give up draft picks to prevent it.

And you can add to that by knowing that with the massive aggregate cap room available, Williams' agent was always going to take him to FA, so the trading team would probably have to use a tag to have any control beyond this season. Now what? We get to be the team that has to use the tag on him? Oh, goody.

For a team that's competitive this year? That's a worthwhile risk if he helps this year and then ends up walking. For a team with not much cap room, that's a risk that's mitigated by a greater likelihood of recouping a comp pick. For a team that's going nowhere this season and is very unlikely to qualify for any 2021 comp picks regardless of what happens with Williams, it's a dumb risk relative to Williams' skill and value (and, quite likely, his price tag).

Williams is better than the quality of players that will probably come out of the 3rd and 4th round picks - I'm not disputing that. But he's not good enough that we should have felt compelled to not roll the dice that we could have gotten him anyway as a FA and kept our picks.

As for him improving our run defense, to the OP's point, the Jets and Bucs are the top two teams in the NFL in terms of rushing yards allowed and yards per carry. Do you feel like there's a particularly strong correlation between that and consistently winning? [/quote

I don't think it's fair to use the Jets and Tampa as measuring sticks. Just about every coach worth a salt talks about doing this.

What do the teams in our Division use as the guiding force to running their offense? I can almost guarantee is focus is on winning the division.
RE: RE: if they want Williams they will keep him  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 11:52 am : link
In comment 14707061 christian said:
Quote:


LOL that's fucking funny. The Giants are in good shape to add "short term" solutions? Gettleman has been doing exactly that and the Giants are literally worse than when he arrived.


Their cap isn't worse. The amount of productive young players on 1st contracts they have isn't worse. They have more draft picks too, even with the Williams deal. So in other words text book rebuilding stuff.
I’ll keep reminding everyone  
djm : 12/8/2019 11:55 am : link
That the giants were at their best when the roster was filled with overpaid or oversized contracts. And that includes 2016.

The Knicks and giants both have glorious under the books payroll lately. And they fucking blow.

When it comes to vet talent, be it your own or someone else’s, 75% of the time you’re going to “overpay,” whatever the fuck that word even means anymore in the pro sports world. You either get the player you need at a contract you probably won’t like, or THERE IS NO PLAYER. That’s what many of you refuse to acknowledge. Once you do, you can make peace with pro FA contracts and how it all works.
RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
mikeinbloomfield : 12/8/2019 11:56 am : link
In comment 14706860 KJG5173 said:
Quote:
In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


Because he doesn’t get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. It’s comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldn’t prevent them from signing anyone else they want. It’s hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.



It’s about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead they’re getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.


You believe a team that was going to give up an asset aka draft pick was not going to resign him? And he isn’t just a run stuffed. He has improved the run defense and improved qb hurries. This defense was and is not one player away from being good. But now they are one less play away from being good for a 3rd round pick. 3rd round picks might have like a 25% chance of being nfl starting players, and this 3rd round pick guarantees that’s. And I still believe the money he costs is not a factor in stopping this team from signing any other free agents they want.



But we didn’t get Williams for a third round pick. We got Williams for 7 games for a third round pick. He is free to sign anywhere when the season is over, which is exactly the same as before he was traded. I don’t know why it is so hard to understand that this was a dumb trade.
RE: RE: I guess Williams will be the only run stuffing 3-4 DE available in FA  
djm : 12/8/2019 11:57 am : link
In comment 14706932 KJG5173 said:
Quote:
In comment 14706901 TD said:


Quote:


Oh wait.. no he won’t. And he’ll cost the #65th, pick and a fourth round pick plus a market or worse contract (bc he has all the leverage).

Horrible trade no matter how you cut it. Unless Williams were a game changer (and he is not) OR it meant they had a deal in place to re-sign him for cheap right after the trade (and they didn’t) this move never made any sense.

Much like the J. Stewart signing and a whole host of other head-scratching moves by DG, somehow some fans will defend it.


Yes because teams are looking to trade “game changers” for 3rd and 4th round picks. A lot of people seem to think 3rd - 5th round picks are either hall of gamers or game changers. They are at best lotto tickets.


Randy moss and Marshall Faulk say hello. Both were traded for picks that didn’t fall in the first round.

I can go on. The giants traded a second round pick for a guy that ended up winning a super bowl mvp for them.
RE: If Leonard Williams  
djm : 12/8/2019 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14706994 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Can play any position on the dline well, the Jets wouldn’t have traded him for not fitting their scheme.


This is a platitude. And it can’t be proven or disproven. But do really want to go there? No team, let alone the lol jets ever made a trade they later regretted? Really.

RE: I’ll keep reminding everyone  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/8/2019 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14707091 djm said:
Quote:
That the giants were at their best when the roster was filled with overpaid or oversized contracts. And that includes 2016.

The Knicks and giants both have glorious under the books payroll lately. And they fucking blow.

When it comes to vet talent, be it your own or someone else’s, 75% of the time you’re going to “overpay,” whatever the fuck that word even means anymore in the pro sports world. You either get the player you need at a contract you probably won’t like, or THERE IS NO PLAYER. That’s what many of you refuse to acknowledge. Once you do, you can make peace with pro FA contracts and how it all works.

This is one of the dumbest fucking posts you have written, and that's saying something pretty significant.
RE: Cool, right back to where we were before we traded  
djm : 12/8/2019 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14707052 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Damon Harrison, only with more self-inflicted cap problems.


Except snacks is a descending player while Williams is entering his prime.
RE: RE: RE: if they want Williams they will keep him  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:04 pm : link
In comment 14707087 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14707061 christian said:


Quote:




LOL that's fucking funny. The Giants are in good shape to add "short term" solutions? Gettleman has been doing exactly that and the Giants are literally worse than when he arrived.



Their cap isn't worse. The amount of productive young players on 1st contracts they have isn't worse. They have more draft picks too, even with the Williams deal. So in other words text book rebuilding stuff.


The team, wins wise, is on the verge of being worse.

The team is younger and compromised of more 1st contract players. Productive is a subjective description. Many of them are playing, and many of them are playing a big role on arguably the worst team in the league. Maybe a number of them will mature into good players, maybe not.

There's an assumption that because the players are young they are bound to be good, which of course flies in the face of logic and history.

By way of overall cap latitude, the Giants actually weren't in bad shape when Gettleman took over. He chose to exchange future cap flexibility for dead money, mid round picks, and a few nice players, namely Zeitler and Peppers.

Gettleman actually handed out more guaranteed money to veterans in 2018 than Reese did in 2016. Basically nothing he did with veteran acquisitions in 2018 made the team better.

Signing Solder, Martin, Omameh, Stewart, Barwin, trading for Ogletree, extending Beckham -- none of these made the Giants better.

He's going into year 3 of a rebuild having accomplished very little other than getting much younger.

So when an article touts the Giants ability to make short term moves to bolster a bad roster, I chuckle in the same way I have the last 2 off seasons.
RE: RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
djm : 12/8/2019 12:07 pm : link
In comment 14707093 mikeinbloomfield said:
Quote:
In comment 14706860 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


Because he doesn’t get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. It’s comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldn’t prevent them from signing anyone else they want. It’s hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.



It’s about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead they’re getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.


You believe a team that was going to give up an asset aka draft pick was not going to resign him? And he isn’t just a run stuffed. He has improved the run defense and improved qb hurries. This defense was and is not one player away from being good. But now they are one less play away from being good for a 3rd round pick. 3rd round picks might have like a 25% chance of being nfl starting players, and this 3rd round pick guarantees that’s. And I still believe the money he costs is not a factor in stopping this team from signing any other free agents they want.




But we didn’t get Williams for a third round pick. We got Williams for 7 games for a third round pick. He is free to sign anywhere when the season is over, which is exactly the same as before he was traded. I don’t know why it is so hard to understand that this was a dumb trade.


And I don’t know wtf it’s so hard for people to accept that the giants now have a better chance of keeping Williams here. Ever hear the expression bird in hand is better than 2 in the Bush?

They traded for him so they could keep him. It’s been said here 1000 times if it’s been said once. Many here refuse to hear this.
RE: RE: I’ll keep reminding everyone  
djm : 12/8/2019 12:10 pm : link
In comment 14707105 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14707091 djm said:


Quote:


That the giants were at their best when the roster was filled with overpaid or oversized contracts. And that includes 2016.

The Knicks and giants both have glorious under the books payroll lately. And they fucking blow.

When it comes to vet talent, be it your own or someone else’s, 75% of the time you’re going to “overpay,” whatever the fuck that word even means anymore in the pro sports world. You either get the player you need at a contract you probably won’t like, or THERE IS NO PLAYER. That’s what many of you refuse to acknowledge. Once you do, you can make peace with pro FA contracts and how it all works.


This is one of the dumbest fucking posts you have written, and that's saying something pretty significant.


Why? It’s the truth. You always post stupid. Always. Great handle. Dumb posts.

Tell me where I’m wrong. Want me to go back to the mid 2000s and conjure up all the posts bemoaning the over sized contracts here?

People always bitch over player contracts here. Constantly.
RE: damned if he does, damned if he doesn't  
Giantz_comeback : 12/8/2019 12:11 pm : link
In comment 14706989 jbeintherockies said:
Quote:

Gettleman was trying to make the defense better this year.

You only have so many options to do that:
1. Draft (happens once a year, not including supplemental draft)
2. Free agency (the players in FA are available for one reason or another)
3. Trades (the players are being traded for one reason or another)

He traded a third (and a fourth?) for a first round talent that has had a positive impact on the defense:
1. Williams is their best defensive lineman
2. He is more than a run-stuffer; he gets pressure on the QB
3. He has gap discipline
4. He can play any position along the line and play it well
5. He is a very powerful defensive lineman
6. He is in the prime of his career (25 years of age)
7. Less risk of trading for him than drafting an interior defensive lineman in the first round (they have pro film on him)
8. The Giants get a chance to see if he fits in with their defense and locker room
9. I've read Williams has leadership qualities
10. He has not been injury prone (or he plays through injuries)
11. He replaced Olsen Pierre (huge upgrade over Pierre)
12. He allows the Giants to play BJ Hill in his more natural 3-technique position

In my opinion, Leonard Williams was a good trade to help a defense that does not have much to work with.


Great post.
...  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:11 pm : link
Your assuming that's actually true. The only further leverage this gives the Giants is the ability to franchise him and force him to stay.

Now if your argument is this is a good idea, I suspect the entire logical world will disagree with you, but that's at least an intellectual plausible argument.
Why is franchise tagging Williams a  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 12:20 pm : link
Bad idea?
RE: RE: RE: I’ll keep reminding everyone  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:22 pm : link
In comment 14707122 djm said:
Quote:
Tell me where I’m wrong. Want me to go back to the mid 2000s and conjure up all the posts bemoaning the over sized contracts here?

People always bitch over player contracts here. Constantly.


Actually, a great exercise for you would be to actually go look at the UFA contracts given out by the Giants between 2005-2011 during their prolonged period of success and see how many actually were market setting or even top 5 overall at their respective positions.

The Giants, specifically Abrams earned a reputation for being tough, fair negotiators and constructing good contracts that specifically gave the Giants favorable exit scenarios.

As that era faded, and no great coincidence, the Giants became less prudent.
Christian - some elements of your post are inaccurate  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 12:23 pm : link
Mainly that a huge chunk of the cap of the roster he took over that ran through or beyond this year was tied up in declining/aging veterans - mainly Vernon, JPP, and Snacks. He was able to get draft picks (and Zeitler) for those guys but in turn has had to carry a lot of dead money. Flowers and Apple were additional dead money.

You are correct that the guys he has re-invested chunks of the cap room in that he had have not worked out. Ogletree and Kareem Martin strike me as particularly awful investments even compared to Solder, who has at least filled a difficult to fill spot. So concerns about any multi-year deals going forward are very fair.

The other chunk of dead money to OBJ for 1 year IMO was worth getting Lawrence, but also not exactly an ideal outcome. Though it may have been the best outcome possible.
RE: Why is franchise tagging Williams a  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:24 pm : link
In comment 14707134 cosmicj said:
Quote:
Bad idea?


Coming off a double digit losing campaign, with the likelihood of a new defensive system, do you believe 1 year of Williams at 18M (nearly a third of the spending power the Giants can bank against the 2020 cap) is a sound investment?

Do you think when presented with a very player friendly UFA market, Williams, will be excited to risk injury and play for a team keeping him from making at least double that in guaranteed money?
Whether you like it or not and how he got here  
David B. : 12/8/2019 12:25 pm : link
He's here -- get used to it. He may actually look a LOT better if they have some pass rushers around him that OLs have to worry about.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: According to the majority here....  
mikeinbloomfield : 12/8/2019 12:25 pm : link
In comment 14707114 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14707093 mikeinbloomfield said:


Quote:


In comment 14706860 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706856 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:


Quote:


Because he doesn’t get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. It’s comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldn’t prevent them from signing anyone else they want. It’s hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.



It’s about opportunity cost and correctly valuing assets.

They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.

Instead they’re getting Leonard Williams for money, a top 70 pick and 4th rounder when those assets could have been put toward improving the team with 25 holes in other positions.


You believe a team that was going to give up an asset aka draft pick was not going to resign him? And he isn’t just a run stuffed. He has improved the run defense and improved qb hurries. This defense was and is not one player away from being good. But now they are one less play away from being good for a 3rd round pick. 3rd round picks might have like a 25% chance of being nfl starting players, and this 3rd round pick guarantees that’s. And I still believe the money he costs is not a factor in stopping this team from signing any other free agents they want.




But we didn’t get Williams for a third round pick. We got Williams for 7 games for a third round pick. He is free to sign anywhere when the season is over, which is exactly the same as before he was traded. I don’t know why it is so hard to understand that this was a dumb trade.



And I don’t know wtf it’s so hard for people to accept that the giants now have a better chance of keeping Williams here. Ever hear the expression bird in hand is better than 2 in the Bush?

They traded for him so they could keep him. It’s been said here 1000 times if it’s been said once. Many here refuse to hear this.


Why is he more likely to sign here? Because he’s here losing every game? What if a team offers him more money? Now we’ve overpaid and given away picks.

Any advantage you think the Giants have in signing after this year is all in your heads, unless you think we should use the transition tag or franchise tag, which Williams has not shown he justifies.
RE: Christian - some elements of your post are inaccurate  
christian : 12/8/2019 12:31 pm : link
In comment 14707139 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
Mainly that a huge chunk of the cap of the roster he took over that ran through or beyond this year was tied up in declining/aging veterans - mainly Vernon, JPP, and Snacks. He was able to get draft picks (and Zeitler) for those guys but in turn has had to carry a lot of dead money. Flowers and Apple were additional dead money.

You are correct that the guys he has re-invested chunks of the cap room in that he had have not worked out. Ogletree and Kareem Martin strike me as particularly awful investments even compared to Solder, who has at least filled a difficult to fill spot. So concerns about any multi-year deals going forward are very fair.

The other chunk of dead money to OBJ for 1 year IMO was worth getting Lawrence, but also not exactly an ideal outcome. Though it may have been the best outcome possible.


Gettleman accelerated that money into the 2018 and 2019 caps. When he took over management, that money was either 1) not committed or 2) spread over time.

He chose to accelerate that money, and compromise his spending power.

You can argue the roster had bad contracts on it, but it's not true he inherited limited cap space. He shed those contracts (a combination of his own and Reese's) at the expensive of space in the near term, to free up space in the long term.
Tagging him is a negotiating step towards agreeing on a long term  
cosmicj : 12/8/2019 12:33 pm : link
Contract. That’s the rational use of the tag.

Btw, Gettleman was involved in one situation, Josh Norman’s, which was abnormal, with the Panthers removing the tag, making Norman a free agent.

If something like that happens, the trade becomes a truly bad one - no disagreement here - but if it’s like most tag situations, it will end with the Giants signing LW.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I’ll keep reminding everyone  
Eric on Li : 12/8/2019 12:36 pm : link
In comment 14707138 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14707122 djm said:


Quote:


Tell me where I’m wrong. Want me to go back to the mid 2000s and conjure up all the posts bemoaning the over sized contracts here?

People always bitch over player contracts here. Constantly.



Actually, a great exercise for you would be to actually go look at the UFA contracts given out by the Giants between 2005-2011 during their prolonged period of success and see how many actually were market setting or even top 5 overall at their respective positions.

The Giants, specifically Abrams earned a reputation for being tough, fair negotiators and constructing good contracts that specifically gave the Giants favorable exit scenarios.

As that era faded, and no great coincidence, the Giants became less prudent.


I don't know how to look it up, but I believe the following contracts were relatively close to top of market at their times:

McKenzie
Pierce
Canty
Rolle
Boley

The biggest thing that declined between the era you mentioned above (05-11) and the 2nd half of the Reese era (12-17) was the production from draft picks. The 2007 SB roster had a ton of homegrown talent at the core (Osi, Tuck, Snee, Diehl, Eli, Jacobs, Webster, Bradshaw). The 2011 SB roster too (the group above plus Nicks, Cruz, JPP, Phillips, Joseph). I believe every guy in parenthesis there made at least 1 pro bowl and started for at least 3 years here.

I don't know how it's not abundantly clear that the #1 reason for this team's failures are directly linked to the lack of production from the 2011-2017 drafts. Using those same 2 criteria I believe the only players who fit the bill on the day Reese guy fired were OBJ and Collins.

It's why Reese was rightfully fired, albeit too late, and created a hole we are still digging out of (articulated in having a low amount of $ expected to FA to be because our 2015/16 draft classes tanked).
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