Btw, Gettleman was involved in one situation, Josh Norman’s, which was abnormal, with the Panthers removing the tag, making Norman a free agent.
If something like that happens, the trade becomes a truly bad one - no disagreement here - but if it’s like most tag situations, it will end with the Giants signing LW.
What if the market for LW is markedly higher than what the Giants value him at?
Would you agree with more than 4B in open space over the next 2 years (with at least 7 of the teams with more spending room than the Giants in the playoff hunt this year) -- there is a good chance the demand for a good not great player like Williams might be pushed pretty high?
Do you think LW will sign for a lower than market deal?
RE: RE: Christian - some elements of your post are inaccurate Â
Gettleman accelerated that money into the 2018 and 2019 caps. When he took over management, that money was either 1) not committed or 2) spread over time.
He chose to accelerate that money, and compromise his spending power.
You can argue the roster had bad contracts on it, but it's not true he inherited limited cap space. He shed those contracts (a combination of his own and Reese's) at the expensive of space in the near term, to free up space in the long term.
On this we agree, he made an active choice to pursue this strategy - but isn't shedding long term bad $ at the expense of short term pain text book rebuild?
DG tagged Kawan Short in Feb 2017 (1 year after Norman fiasco) Â
they will do the same with Williams if they can't find a compromise on an extension.
The Jets paid Williams $14m this year on his 5th year option. Tagging him is not all that different of a result. And if we decide to trade him next year, just as the Jets did, I'd imagine there will be an option to trade him just as they did.
I've said it 1m times but I'd rather tag LW than sign him to get 1 more year of games before deciding on him long term.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I’ll keep reminding everyone Â
Tell me where I’m wrong. Want me to go back to the mid 2000s and conjure up all the posts bemoaning the over sized contracts here?
People always bitch over player contracts here. Constantly.
Actually, a great exercise for you would be to actually go look at the UFA contracts given out by the Giants between 2005-2011 during their prolonged period of success and see how many actually were market setting or even top 5 overall at their respective positions.
The Giants, specifically Abrams earned a reputation for being tough, fair negotiators and constructing good contracts that specifically gave the Giants favorable exit scenarios.
As that era faded, and no great coincidence, the Giants became less prudent.
I don't know how to look it up, but I believe the following contracts were relatively close to top of market at their times:
McKenzie
Pierce
Canty
Rolle
Boley
The biggest thing that declined between the era you mentioned above (05-11) and the 2nd half of the Reese era (12-17) was the production from draft picks. The 2007 SB roster had a ton of homegrown talent at the core (Osi, Tuck, Snee, Diehl, Eli, Jacobs, Webster, Bradshaw). The 2011 SB roster too (the group above plus Nicks, Cruz, JPP, Phillips, Joseph). I believe every guy in parenthesis there made at least 1 pro bowl and started for at least 3 years here.
I don't know how it's not abundantly clear that the #1 reason for this team's failures are directly linked to the lack of production from the 2011-2017 drafts. Using those same 2 criteria I believe the only players who fit the bill on the day Reese guy fired were OBJ and Collins.
It's why Reese was rightfully fired, albeit too late, and created a hole we are still digging out of (articulated in having a low amount of $ expected to FA to be because our 2015/16 draft classes tanked).
The Giants are in a historically bad era because they both have drafted poorly and invested poorly in veteran acquisitions.
That's how you get 3 straight and 5 out 6 double digit loss years.
The Giants are in a historically bad era because they both have drafted poorly and invested poorly in veteran acquisitions.
That's how you get 3 straight and 5 out 6 double digit loss years.
Again, no disagreement on that. But DG was absent for a huge chunk of that yet treated like he is solely to blame. His 2 drafts have been a big step in the right direction. And he's cleaned up the cap. His veteran pickups have mostly sucked but some have been good (both Goldens).
The cap didnt need to be cleaned up before he got his hands Â
I have to believe the Giants have a good idea about what LW’s comp will need to be and consider it fair, given their view of his play.
If the 2020 market proves much richer than expected, that’s actually a plus for the trade, as they will have an advantage in holding down LW’s comp (because they have the ability to franchise tag him). One wrinkle is whether to use the exclusive or non-exclusive forms of the tag. The exclusive variety forces them to pay him more but prevents him from testing the market.
I’m linking to an article on Kawann Shorts 2017 contract, which DG negotiated and which looks like a comparable situation to this one. The tag there was non-exclusive and it looks like no other team tried to snatch Short away from the Panthers. Kawann Short - ( New Window )
RE: The cap didnt need to be cleaned up before he got his hands Â
I can't believe the Giants are in a position to entertain the risk and headache of a good not very good player like Williams in a franchise tag scenario.
That distinction should be held for the very best of players.
The Giants best case scenario is to get out of this signing a good not very good player to a contract that doesn't push the top of the market.
were already out of contention when the trade was made, and the cost was likely pick #65 or #66 on a team with a lot of holes, and GM who stubbornly refuses to ever trade down. There is also a real concern that DG will overpay Williams to justify the draft capital he spent to get him. I was initially OK with the trade, but it was a bad move.
Williams is a good player I'll reserve judgement on the trade... Â
until I see how it plays out. Personally I'd like to retain him but numbers matter. If they can sign him now at fair value or tag him for leverage then extend him at a reasonable number that would make sense. Obviously trading multiple picks in a losing season then having the player walk would be a failure.
Imo, this is hardly 1/2/3 on the debit side of DG's record.
If we got Williams in the 3rd round it would be an odds defining draft choice. One of the holes is a pass rush.
As a poster said above, pass rushing is harder than it used to be ( many offenses are designed to get the ball out quicker) and it requires pressure from the ends and the middle.
The DL/OLB are 1-2 players away.
If the contract is not outrageous (of course it will be to those who already have a conclusion and shove every not yet proven data point into the negative column) this is not the big issue or one of the next critical items to get right in 2020
DT is one of the positions, like DB, or OT that takes more than one year to round into full ability. Lets see what we have in DL next year. With Tomlinson and Hill it could be a good rotation once you add one pass rusher.
There isn't a fast or good solution for bad when their are 7 draft slots per year ( with an overall NFL abysmal success rate once below the 3rd round) and 53 positions ( plus 6-10 to account for in season injuries) and an average of 3.8 years of tenure.
Amazing sense of realistic expectations on a site that specializes in "analysis".
Judging that is long past time tired of losing overall is not the same as its time to judge each slice and aspect of that result. Negative confirmation bias and foreshortened assessment period are just two more ways things can stay bad
I'll tell you why it's a bad idea. Because LS is not worth the cap space. He's really nothing special. He's a redundancy at a position where we appear to have some pretty good parts.
The expected FT for DTs is going to be close to $16M. I can think of a few more positions where that money could be invested instead...
Bill, my view is Williams has played 5 years and is has shown to touch the "good" column as a pass rusher in a few not all of those years. But let's for argument sake round him up to the good column as a benefit of maturation and assumed better scenery, and add in he has a clear good impact on the run game.
He's definitely not in the very good, or great category. Good player, and the type of player the Giants need.
I actually don't care about the pick(s), sunk cost. I hope management doesn't care either. The picks and perception are baggage, and only play into the emotional component now. Management should signal to his reps the picks don't mean shit to them, it's not leverage, don't be naive and assume it is.
The Giants need to view Williams for who he is and value him according to what they value a good, not very, no great defensive end.
If a team with more resources values him more, walk.
Too many players on the roster Gettleman "had to pay," "had no alternative," "needed for stabilizing."
RE: The cap didnt need to be cleaned up before he got his hands Â
I think Williams is a good player. I felt the same about Ogletree.
I hated both trades because I think the team needs young, cost-controlled players to begin growing. Trading picks for those guys when the team (in my view) is so far away strikes me as poor decision making.
Especially in the Williams case when he's going to be a free agent.
If we got Williams in the 3rd round it would be an odds defining draft choice. One of the holes is a pass rush.
Yeah, we really improved the pass rush with LW. He's been averaging a robust 3.5 sacks/yr over his five years in the NFL. And he's hot this year with zero.
Collassally stupid trade that should have people questioning the decision making of the triggerman. Holes all over the place when he gets here on a roster that actually has Tomlinson and Snacks on the interior and he's already spent 1/3 of our draft picks (that are now forced to the bench), two future draft picks and presumably a large contract on run stuffing interior DL in a passing league. So we're left with a potentially solid run d that teams can gash through the air for 30+ points a game. Great.
Really looking forward to the brand new coaching staff that has even less of a need for 300lb defensive lineman than the current scheme that is one of the few that actually favor the position.
Mid-round picks are call options - low probability of success. I don't think the Giants should be selling those assets for someone like Williams or Ogletree.
They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.
Really? you know this? Just because there is a list of potential free agents on the internet somewhere, it does not mean the Giants have a shot at signing them.
Who wants to play for this team? This is not an attractive place to play which means we have to over pay to get players to come here.
You are either signing with a team for a chance to win a championship, or you are signing with them because they are paying the most $$. It is that simple
Draft Chase Young
Free Agent's Yannick Ngakoue and Marcus Golden .
We still need a MLB tackling machine and a FS
I think with the decent DT's we have the Defense
will be a real strength would like to see
Hill play better but if we get Young plenty
of reason to be positive .
They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.
Really? you know this? Just because there is a list of potential free agents on the internet somewhere, it does not mean the Giants have a shot at signing them.
Who wants to play for this team? This is not an attractive place to play which means we have to over pay to get players to come here.
You are either signing with a team for a chance to win a championship, or you are signing with them because they are paying the most $$. It is that simple
My personal view is to not build at the top end of free agency until you are confident in your core group.
Paying the most money for the luxury of being the highest bidder, while your roster is lean just never feels like the right answer.
Leonard Williams isn't the only lineman who could make the Giants better. If he wants more than the Giants value him at, they need to let him walk.
The Giants aren't Leonard Williams away from the playoffs.
I don't think he is a great player by any stretch.
My point it that as we Giants fans know more than most, a good pass rush against a playoff level OL requires several things:
1) More than 3 players who are well able to penetrate. All three help each other
2) Penetration from up the middle and the edges. ( Some qb's are average fore a QB on timing and eye when there is edge pressure but drop their eyes if it comes up the center. Witness Eli as one example)
3) A rotation that can still pressure late in the season when 1-2 ot the top guys no longer have their legs for the whole game.
When we had all 3 we won in 2007. In 2008, the reason some analysts thought we did not go as far as our early season promise indicated, was not just the Plaxico crap but because our DL ran out of gas in the last few games and did not have the legs as a unit.
So do I think Williams is the pass rusher we need? Do I confuse him with Donald? Not at all.
Depending on the contract he might be a better than average DT and DT's are not easy to find. We especially know that it is unlikely that they get better in round 3. They also take awhile to get better (hence my hope that Dexter Lawrence gets better in year 2 and 3).
Now, I see a lot of folks pining for an edge rusher and in particular, hoping for such in round 1.
Not going to be fun watch said prize draft choice get doubled and chipped with nothing to show for it for the entire NYG.
Now, did we have to trade a 3rd to get Williams? Separate issue and separate target for our ire. imo, lets separate Williams the player from Williams the off season contract from DG the trader. Three different things, imo. Better analysis of whats right and wrong follows keeping oranges , apples and bananas apart.
Its usually 7 picks every year. The NFl averages below 20% after round 3.
So filling a 53 player roster when the average tenure is 3.9 years takes 1) time and some FA (of which some play to contract ( Rolle, Pierce, Plax and McKenzie) and most do not.
The game is built to entrance those who can stay frustrated for most years out of 10.
For me, its losing interest as an entertainment product and I don't see how it lasts past the first serious penetrations of the injury lawyers
Agreed. Good player who fits a need and will be a multiplier.
As posted above, the pick is gone, and hopefully out the equation. My view on Gettleman is declining, but an argument for another thread.
The question is value, an unknown number to us fans, but a number I hope the Giants management sticks to, regardless of the acquisition cost.
I fear this is an outlying bad market to shop, with a lot of good teams at the top of the spending pool. There are 5-7 teams with significant cap room, who are a Williams away from winning one or more playoff games.
On the one hand, they argue the Giants need to grow organically by drafting better and that they won't build the team via FA (a continual knock at Reese's last stand in 2016)...
..and on the other, they're OK with forking over a high 3rd and 4th round pick for the right to either franchise a player who's made a grand total of 1 Pro Bowl in 5 years (assuming he doesn't make it this year), isn't known for being a pass rusher, and has never been an All Pro.
Build the team via the draft does not equal trade away two picks and overpay for a guy who you're hoping will develop into more than he's shown in 5 years to date.
you are correct - the worst aspect of the LW trade is losing the pick. That's in part why I hope they tag LW and just treat him like a rental for next year (with an option to obviously extend). See how he looks in 2020 and if he isn't clearly a core player recoup the pick. Or let him play out the year and let him walk for a comp pick.
The way the league works now it's a lot easier to recycle assets to get picks than it used to be. I don't mind leveraging mid-round picks to avoid needing to make too many massive overpays via FA with long term risk for unproven players.
What you call recouping the pick would require that either someone trade the Giants a high 3rd and 4th to break even, or they're out one or more of those picks AND a year of FT salary at the DT position.
The only way any of this works is if Williams is a break out player who has underperformed to this point in his career. That's a big bet to make on a guy who has been a solid but inconsistent player for 5 years in the NFL.
Some posters "torture" logic in an attempt to prove the giants wrong. Then some posters are waiting until they have results that are satisfying to form an opinion.
“I know that I want to get a big contract, and I know that I am worth a lot,” Williams said, adding that it’s “definitely a logical possibility" that he will test free agency.
Some posters "torture" logic in an attempt to prove the giants wrong. Then some posters are waiting until they have results that are satisfying to form an opinion.
An easy question for you - can you remember the last time a losing team made a trade like this midseason?
The Giants keep trying to outsmart the league, and the results keep showing that they should stop.
Some posters "torture" logic in an attempt to prove the giants wrong. Then some posters are waiting until they have results that are satisfying to form an opinion.
An easy question for you - can you remember the last time a losing team made a trade like this midseason?
The Giants keep trying to outsmart the league, and the results keep showing that they should stop.
I'll wait until I know it's a failure or a success before labeling it as such.
“If I don’t think they’re giving me what I think I’m worth, then obviously I think hitting free agency would make sense,” Williams said. "Everything is going to have to match up.
“I definitely think I’m a top-tier interior defensive lineman, in that top percentage of the d-linemen. I wouldn’t say Aaron Donald [level]. But I would definitely put myself up there with a lot of those other top guys.”
Reasonable? Far from it. He’s not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given he’s already threatening to walk.
Notbsure how you are already able to predict the price for Williams at end of year. Most great DTs like suh, donald make 15 to 20 for elite status. I see Williams being like Harrison 8 to 12 given performance. Probably 10 to resign.
Because he doesn’t get sacks, he is horrible and overrated and not worth a 3rd round pick, and they still believe he is getting 15mil a year. It’s comical how someone on one hand he hardly an nfl player yet they believe he is going to be paid as a top 5 player. Most people on this board say he is going to get this insane contract that will strap the Giants to upgrade at other locations, which in reality even if he did sign some top dline contract it still wouldn’t prevent them from signing anyone else they want. It’s hard to find any examples of teams not signing players they legitimately wanted because of cap space. Cap space is something fans love to talk about but has really no legit bearing on nfl signings. You can maneuver cap space so easily.
RE: RE: The cap didnt need to be cleaned up before he got his hands Â
The worst contracts that the Giants have had to clean up were either contracts that Gettleman himself gave out, or contracts that Gettleman chose not to clean up anyway and left on the books.
What cap killers did he actually get rid of? Snacks? Vernon? Apple was cheap and would have been coming off the books this offseason anyway (assuming the Giants would not have picked up his 5th year option if the only goal was to get rid of him). Flowers was a failure but would have been off the books now too. Ellison is a bad contract but it's still on the books, with additional guaranteed money pressed forward because of this year's dead money. You can make the case that Eli should have been cut this offseason but wasn't.
Meanwhile, Gettleman's original hog mollies, Solder and Omameh, represent a cap albatross and a dead money sinkhole. We-didn't-sign-him-to-trade-him OBJ became a huge red number on this year's cap. Stewart was a waste. Barwin was useless. Bethea is stealing money.
There is no logical argument that anyone can make at this point that Gettleman's cap efforts have been to clean up anyone's mess more than his own.
RE: Whether you like it or not and how he got here Â
He's here -- get used to it. He may actually look a LOT better if they have some pass rushers around him that OLs have to worry about.
No, that's specifically not the point of a discussion forum. We actually can have a discussion about whether a move that was already made makes any sense. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities.
Reasonable? Far from it. He’s not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given he’s already threatening to walk.
He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.
Reasonable? Far from it. He’s not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given he’s already threatening to walk.
He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.
I mean whatever.
He’s unreasonable because he thinks he should be paid just below the Aaron Donald level. That’s literally the definition of unreasonable thinking
Reasonable? Far from it. He’s not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given he’s already threatening to walk.
He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.
I mean whatever.
He’s unreasonable because he thinks he should be paid just below the Aaron Donald level. That’s literally the definition of unreasonable thinking
When he gets his contract you will know where his thinking is.
Reasonable? Far from it. He’s not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given he’s already threatening to walk.
He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.
I mean whatever.
He’s unreasonable because he thinks he should be paid just below the Aaron Donald level. That’s literally the definition of unreasonable thinking
When he gets his contract you will know where his thinking is.
That’s not how it works. He thinks he’s worth a lot, he’s not just saying that to max his contract value out - he legitimately thinks it.
What he ends up signing for is what a team was willing to give him, not what he thinks he’s worth.
Btw, Gettleman was involved in one situation, Josh Norman’s, which was abnormal, with the Panthers removing the tag, making Norman a free agent.
If something like that happens, the trade becomes a truly bad one - no disagreement here - but if it’s like most tag situations, it will end with the Giants signing LW.
What if the market for LW is markedly higher than what the Giants value him at?
Would you agree with more than 4B in open space over the next 2 years (with at least 7 of the teams with more spending room than the Giants in the playoff hunt this year) -- there is a good chance the demand for a good not great player like Williams might be pushed pretty high?
Do you think LW will sign for a lower than market deal?
Gettleman accelerated that money into the 2018 and 2019 caps. When he took over management, that money was either 1) not committed or 2) spread over time.
He chose to accelerate that money, and compromise his spending power.
You can argue the roster had bad contracts on it, but it's not true he inherited limited cap space. He shed those contracts (a combination of his own and Reese's) at the expensive of space in the near term, to free up space in the long term.
On this we agree, he made an active choice to pursue this strategy - but isn't shedding long term bad $ at the expense of short term pain text book rebuild?
The Jets paid Williams $14m this year on his 5th year option. Tagging him is not all that different of a result. And if we decide to trade him next year, just as the Jets did, I'd imagine there will be an option to trade him just as they did.
I've said it 1m times but I'd rather tag LW than sign him to get 1 more year of games before deciding on him long term.
Quote:
In comment 14707122 djm said:
Quote:
Tell me where I’m wrong. Want me to go back to the mid 2000s and conjure up all the posts bemoaning the over sized contracts here?
People always bitch over player contracts here. Constantly.
Actually, a great exercise for you would be to actually go look at the UFA contracts given out by the Giants between 2005-2011 during their prolonged period of success and see how many actually were market setting or even top 5 overall at their respective positions.
The Giants, specifically Abrams earned a reputation for being tough, fair negotiators and constructing good contracts that specifically gave the Giants favorable exit scenarios.
As that era faded, and no great coincidence, the Giants became less prudent.
I don't know how to look it up, but I believe the following contracts were relatively close to top of market at their times:
McKenzie
Pierce
Canty
Rolle
Boley
The biggest thing that declined between the era you mentioned above (05-11) and the 2nd half of the Reese era (12-17) was the production from draft picks. The 2007 SB roster had a ton of homegrown talent at the core (Osi, Tuck, Snee, Diehl, Eli, Jacobs, Webster, Bradshaw). The 2011 SB roster too (the group above plus Nicks, Cruz, JPP, Phillips, Joseph). I believe every guy in parenthesis there made at least 1 pro bowl and started for at least 3 years here.
I don't know how it's not abundantly clear that the #1 reason for this team's failures are directly linked to the lack of production from the 2011-2017 drafts. Using those same 2 criteria I believe the only players who fit the bill on the day Reese guy fired were OBJ and Collins.
It's why Reese was rightfully fired, albeit too late, and created a hole we are still digging out of (articulated in having a low amount of $ expected to FA to be because our 2015/16 draft classes tanked).
The Giants are in a historically bad era because they both have drafted poorly and invested poorly in veteran acquisitions.
That's how you get 3 straight and 5 out 6 double digit loss years.
The Giants are in a historically bad era because they both have drafted poorly and invested poorly in veteran acquisitions.
That's how you get 3 straight and 5 out 6 double digit loss years.
Again, no disagreement on that. But DG was absent for a huge chunk of that yet treated like he is solely to blame. His 2 drafts have been a big step in the right direction. And he's cleaned up the cap. His veteran pickups have mostly sucked but some have been good (both Goldens).
If the 2020 market proves much richer than expected, that’s actually a plus for the trade, as they will have an advantage in holding down LW’s comp (because they have the ability to franchise tag him). One wrinkle is whether to use the exclusive or non-exclusive forms of the tag. The exclusive variety forces them to pay him more but prevents him from testing the market.
I’m linking to an article on Kawann Shorts 2017 contract, which DG negotiated and which looks like a comparable situation to this one. The tag there was non-exclusive and it looks like no other team tried to snatch Short away from the Panthers.
Kawann Short - ( New Window )
Yes it did - 30%+ of it was on aging and declining players like JPP, Vernon, Snacks. And failed high picks like Flowers/Apple.
That distinction should be held for the very best of players.
The Giants best case scenario is to get out of this signing a good not very good player to a contract that doesn't push the top of the market.
This is silly.
If we got Williams in the 3rd round it would be an odds defining draft choice. One of the holes is a pass rush.
As a poster said above, pass rushing is harder than it used to be ( many offenses are designed to get the ball out quicker) and it requires pressure from the ends and the middle.
The DL/OLB are 1-2 players away.
If the contract is not outrageous (of course it will be to those who already have a conclusion and shove every not yet proven data point into the negative column) this is not the big issue or one of the next critical items to get right in 2020
DT is one of the positions, like DB, or OT that takes more than one year to round into full ability. Lets see what we have in DL next year. With Tomlinson and Hill it could be a good rotation once you add one pass rusher.
There isn't a fast or good solution for bad when their are 7 draft slots per year ( with an overall NFL abysmal success rate once below the 3rd round) and 53 positions ( plus 6-10 to account for in season injuries) and an average of 3.8 years of tenure.
Amazing sense of realistic expectations on a site that specializes in "analysis".
Judging that is long past time tired of losing overall is not the same as its time to judge each slice and aspect of that result. Negative confirmation bias and foreshortened assessment period are just two more ways things can stay bad
imo
I'll tell you why it's a bad idea. Because LS is not worth the cap space. He's really nothing special. He's a redundancy at a position where we appear to have some pretty good parts.
The expected FT for DTs is going to be close to $16M. I can think of a few more positions where that money could be invested instead...
He's definitely not in the very good, or great category. Good player, and the type of player the Giants need.
I actually don't care about the pick(s), sunk cost. I hope management doesn't care either. The picks and perception are baggage, and only play into the emotional component now. Management should signal to his reps the picks don't mean shit to them, it's not leverage, don't be naive and assume it is.
The Giants need to view Williams for who he is and value him according to what they value a good, not very, no great defensive end.
If a team with more resources values him more, walk.
Too many players on the roster Gettleman "had to pay," "had no alternative," "needed for stabilizing."
Um... wat...?
I hated both trades because I think the team needs young, cost-controlled players to begin growing. Trading picks for those guys when the team (in my view) is so far away strikes me as poor decision making.
Especially in the Williams case when he's going to be a free agent.
If we got Williams in the 3rd round it would be an odds defining draft choice. One of the holes is a pass rush.
Yeah, we really improved the pass rush with LW. He's been averaging a robust 3.5 sacks/yr over his five years in the NFL. And he's hot this year with zero.
Definitely on the fast track to Canton...
Really looking forward to the brand new coaching staff that has even less of a need for 300lb defensive lineman than the current scheme that is one of the few that actually favor the position.
They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.
Really? you know this? Just because there is a list of potential free agents on the internet somewhere, it does not mean the Giants have a shot at signing them.
Who wants to play for this team? This is not an attractive place to play which means we have to over pay to get players to come here.
You are either signing with a team for a chance to win a championship, or you are signing with them because they are paying the most $$. It is that simple
Free Agent's Yannick Ngakoue and Marcus Golden .
We still need a MLB tackling machine and a FS
I think with the decent DT's we have the Defense
will be a real strength would like to see
Hill play better but if we get Young plenty
of reason to be positive .
Quote:
They could have gotten Leonard Williams or a similar player for just money this offseason.
Really? you know this? Just because there is a list of potential free agents on the internet somewhere, it does not mean the Giants have a shot at signing them.
Who wants to play for this team? This is not an attractive place to play which means we have to over pay to get players to come here.
You are either signing with a team for a chance to win a championship, or you are signing with them because they are paying the most $$. It is that simple
My personal view is to not build at the top end of free agency until you are confident in your core group.
Paying the most money for the luxury of being the highest bidder, while your roster is lean just never feels like the right answer.
Leonard Williams isn't the only lineman who could make the Giants better. If he wants more than the Giants value him at, they need to let him walk.
The Giants aren't Leonard Williams away from the playoffs.
My point it that as we Giants fans know more than most, a good pass rush against a playoff level OL requires several things:
1) More than 3 players who are well able to penetrate. All three help each other
2) Penetration from up the middle and the edges. ( Some qb's are average fore a QB on timing and eye when there is edge pressure but drop their eyes if it comes up the center. Witness Eli as one example)
3) A rotation that can still pressure late in the season when 1-2 ot the top guys no longer have their legs for the whole game.
When we had all 3 we won in 2007. In 2008, the reason some analysts thought we did not go as far as our early season promise indicated, was not just the Plaxico crap but because our DL ran out of gas in the last few games and did not have the legs as a unit.
So do I think Williams is the pass rusher we need? Do I confuse him with Donald? Not at all.
Depending on the contract he might be a better than average DT and DT's are not easy to find. We especially know that it is unlikely that they get better in round 3. They also take awhile to get better (hence my hope that Dexter Lawrence gets better in year 2 and 3).
Now, I see a lot of folks pining for an edge rusher and in particular, hoping for such in round 1.
Not going to be fun watch said prize draft choice get doubled and chipped with nothing to show for it for the entire NYG.
Now, did we have to trade a 3rd to get Williams? Separate issue and separate target for our ire. imo, lets separate Williams the player from Williams the off season contract from DG the trader. Three different things, imo. Better analysis of whats right and wrong follows keeping oranges , apples and bananas apart.
Make sense christian?
PS: Hope you are well
So filling a 53 player roster when the average tenure is 3.9 years takes 1) time and some FA (of which some play to contract ( Rolle, Pierce, Plax and McKenzie) and most do not.
The game is built to entrance those who can stay frustrated for most years out of 10.
For me, its losing interest as an entertainment product and I don't see how it lasts past the first serious penetrations of the injury lawyers
As posted above, the pick is gone, and hopefully out the equation. My view on Gettleman is declining, but an argument for another thread.
The question is value, an unknown number to us fans, but a number I hope the Giants management sticks to, regardless of the acquisition cost.
I fear this is an outlying bad market to shop, with a lot of good teams at the top of the spending pool. There are 5-7 teams with significant cap room, who are a Williams away from winning one or more playoff games.
Hope you are well too, Bill.
To get FA OL this year is likely an overpay by any GM trying it and some risky players ( OL injuries make me nervous (Conklin))
..and on the other, they're OK with forking over a high 3rd and 4th round pick for the right to either franchise a player who's made a grand total of 1 Pro Bowl in 5 years (assuming he doesn't make it this year), isn't known for being a pass rusher, and has never been an All Pro.
Build the team via the draft does not equal trade away two picks and overpay for a guy who you're hoping will develop into more than he's shown in 5 years to date.
The way the league works now it's a lot easier to recycle assets to get picks than it used to be. I don't mind leveraging mid-round picks to avoid needing to make too many massive overpays via FA with long term risk for unproven players.
The only way any of this works is if Williams is a break out player who has underperformed to this point in his career. That's a big bet to make on a guy who has been a solid but inconsistent player for 5 years in the NFL.
So much for being easier to sign him
An easy question for you - can you remember the last time a losing team made a trade like this midseason?
The Giants keep trying to outsmart the league, and the results keep showing that they should stop.
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Some posters "torture" logic in an attempt to prove the giants wrong. Then some posters are waiting until they have results that are satisfying to form an opinion.
An easy question for you - can you remember the last time a losing team made a trade like this midseason?
The Giants keep trying to outsmart the league, and the results keep showing that they should stop.
I'll wait until I know it's a failure or a success before labeling it as such.
“I definitely think I’m a top-tier interior defensive lineman, in that top percentage of the d-linemen. I wouldn’t say Aaron Donald [level]. But I would definitely put myself up there with a lot of those other top guys.”
Expected? Sure.
Reasonable? Far from it. He’s not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given he’s already threatening to walk.
In comment 14706847 KJG5173 said:
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On the roster.
Um... wat...?
Clearly you feel otherwise - care to explain?
The worst contracts that the Giants have had to clean up were either contracts that Gettleman himself gave out, or contracts that Gettleman chose not to clean up anyway and left on the books.
What cap killers did he actually get rid of? Snacks? Vernon? Apple was cheap and would have been coming off the books this offseason anyway (assuming the Giants would not have picked up his 5th year option if the only goal was to get rid of him). Flowers was a failure but would have been off the books now too. Ellison is a bad contract but it's still on the books, with additional guaranteed money pressed forward because of this year's dead money. You can make the case that Eli should have been cut this offseason but wasn't.
Meanwhile, Gettleman's original hog mollies, Solder and Omameh, represent a cap albatross and a dead money sinkhole. We-didn't-sign-him-to-trade-him OBJ became a huge red number on this year's cap. Stewart was a waste. Barwin was useless. Bethea is stealing money.
There is no logical argument that anyone can make at this point that Gettleman's cap efforts have been to clean up anyone's mess more than his own.
No, that's specifically not the point of a discussion forum. We actually can have a discussion about whether a move that was already made makes any sense. Sorry if that offends your delicate sensibilities.
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And expected from Williams.
Expected? Sure.
Reasonable? Far from it. He’s not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given he’s already threatening to walk.
He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.
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In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:
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And expected from Williams.
Expected? Sure.
Reasonable? Far from it. He’s not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given he’s already threatening to walk.
He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.
I mean whatever.
He’s unreasonable because he thinks he should be paid just below the Aaron Donald level. That’s literally the definition of unreasonable thinking
I wonder if Williams's team views him in the echelon above Grady Jarret. Similar player and age, who netted 4/68M.
The shopping pool is huge this year, I'd expect there be an adjustment in the market.
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In comment 14708117 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:
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And expected from Williams.
Expected? Sure.
Reasonable? Far from it. He’s not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given he’s already threatening to walk.
He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.
I mean whatever.
He’s unreasonable because he thinks he should be paid just below the Aaron Donald level. That’s literally the definition of unreasonable thinking
When he gets his contract you will know where his thinking is.
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And expected from Williams.
I wonder if Williams's team views him in the echelon above Grady Jarret. Similar player and age, who netted 4/68M.
The shopping pool is huge this year, I'd expect there be an adjustment in the market.
Christian, it certainly is going to be interesting how this plays out. I'm very intrigued.
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In comment 14708135 crick n NC said:
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In comment 14708117 ajr2456 said:
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In comment 14708105 crick n NC said:
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And expected from Williams.
Expected? Sure.
Reasonable? Far from it. He’s not a top 10 IDL in the league but is going to want to get paid like one. Kinda destroys the narrative trading for him made it easier to sign him given he’s already threatening to walk.
He's attempting to max his value which is standard. Call him unreasonable when in fact his contract is outrageous whether with the giants or some other team.
I mean whatever.
He’s unreasonable because he thinks he should be paid just below the Aaron Donald level. That’s literally the definition of unreasonable thinking
When he gets his contract you will know where his thinking is.
That’s not how it works. He thinks he’s worth a lot, he’s not just saying that to max his contract value out - he legitimately thinks it.
What he ends up signing for is what a team was willing to give him, not what he thinks he’s worth.