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Leonard Williams wants big pay from NYG or will hit FA

FranknWeezer : 12/9/2019 9:35 am
No big surprise, of course. The "I'm sick of losing" angle seems like a real thing with hin. It's been beaten to death around here, but the thought of Gettleman renting him for part of a year when we are in rebuilding/non-contending mode and badly needed the picks he traded away is infuriating.
Now Leonard Williams is talking - ( New Window )
One of the stupidest trades  
Metnut : 12/9/2019 9:39 am : link
I've ever seen. It's clear (as it would be from anyone with a pulse) that he's not taking a discount to sign with the Giants. If the team was interested in him, they should've just went after him in UFA.

Fire Gettleman. Enough is enough already with this clown.
I think the Leonard Williams trade  
Mr. Bungle : 12/9/2019 9:39 am : link
should get Gettleman fired.

Stupid then, stupid now.
I said it when it happened & I'll say it now-  
TheMick7 : 12/9/2019 9:42 am : link
this was one of the stupidest trades ever made,particularly for an FA & giving up a 3rd (& 4or5 2021) which was obviously going to be a very high pick! Mara/Gettleman/Shurmur-The 3 Stooges!
PLAYER TELLS MEDIA HE DOESNT WANT TO GET PAID  
Brown Recluse : 12/9/2019 9:42 am : link
LIKE AN AVERAGE PLAYER.

NEWS AT 11!!

***yawn***
He needs to explain this trade  
Silver Spoon : 12/9/2019 9:42 am : link
at some point. So, now they will throw big money at this dude, a guy who has done absolutely nothing since his arrival.
tag him and find a coach who can start winning here  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 9:43 am : link
and if he and his agent find another team willing to give up a higher pick for him bon voyage. Or if we stink again next year and he wants out.

His actual quotes weren't as bad as the headline, in fact they were pretty measured and thoughtful.

Quote:
ďI know that I want to get a big contract, and I know that I am worth a lot,Ē Williams said, adding that itís ďdefinitely a logical possibility" that he will test free agency.

ďI like to be committed to where Iím at," Williams said. ďI like the fact that the GM and the owner wanted me here. I think it speaks volumes that they were willing to trade for me in a rebuilding year. I think that shows that they want me to be a part of this program."

ďI definitely think Iím a top-tier interior defensive lineman, in that top percentage of the d-linemen. I wouldnít say Aaron Donald [level]. But I would definitely put myself up there with a lot of those other top guys.Ē

ďThis has definitely been one of the hardest years,Ē Williams said. ďI want to win, and I think itís time. I want to be able to have some winning years, even if thatís just making it to the playoffs. I at least want to do that. I think it would be hard for me to sit back in retirement and think about never being able to have played in the playoffs.Ē
I assume  
mdthedream : 12/9/2019 9:43 am : link
we can put a tag on him and gget something back if he signs with someone else.
Important to note  
Britt in VA : 12/9/2019 9:43 am : link
Quote:
ďI definitely think Iím a top-tier interior defensive lineman, in that top percentage of the d-linemen. I wouldnít say Aaron Donald [level]. But I would definitely put myself up there with a lot of those other top guys.Ē


Franchising him as a DT vs. DE is a big difference.
Williams  
pjcas18 : 12/9/2019 9:43 am : link
has all the leverage.

Giants only recourse is the FT, which would make a bad trade worse.
LOL  
Justlurking : 12/9/2019 9:44 am : link
at least we get back that comp pick plus the saints first from the shockey trade.

This organization is a dumpster fire.
just tag him  
Essex : 12/9/2019 9:45 am : link
it is one year contract in a year where we are going to have significant cap space. We have a decent amount of leverage here if he truly wants a long term deal.
RE: I think the Leonard Williams trade  
cokeduplt : 12/9/2019 9:45 am : link
In comment 14708242 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
should get Gettleman fired.

Stupid then, stupid now.


Agreed he completely lost me with this trade.
RE: PLAYER TELLS MEDIA HE DOESNT WANT TO GET PAID  
Essex : 12/9/2019 9:47 am : link
In comment 14708251 Brown Recluse said:
Quote:
LIKE AN AVERAGE PLAYER.

NEWS AT 11!!

***yawn***

this, too. Just because he wants to get paid does not mean there will be a robust market for him.
I don't think it's clear which tag he would get Britt  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 9:48 am : link
when the Jets exercised his 5th year option the NFL had to determine whether he counted as a DT or DE, and they determined DE. That's why he made 14m this year vs. 11m. I would guess based on precedent his tag would be DE again.

Either way it doesn't matter. It's a few $M difference in a year we project to have $80m+ cap room and by the time we get to march there will be very few appealing targets for it. Certainly not very many 25/26 year old starters with a healthy track record, a top pedigree, and upside willing to take a 1 year deal.

Pay him for 1 year at the top tier like he wants, and motivate him to get that big deal he wants and help this team build a winner.
It was only a stupid trade if they don't resign him  
Dnew15 : 12/9/2019 9:48 am : link
That article title is about as mid-leading as it gets.

LW basically said, I don't like losing AND I want to get paid.

He's coming over his rookie contract and for most of these guys, it's there one chance at a big pay day.

LW has played very well, especially against the run, since he got here.

In the words of Teddy KGB, "Pay that man his money!"
DG  
AcidTest : 12/9/2019 9:49 am : link
should be fired just for this trade, but certainly in addition to all of his other disastrous trades. But where was Mara? Didn't he have to sign off on this trade first? We basically gave away a high third round pick and a fifth in 2021 (assuming Williams doesn't resign) for a guy who probably wants at least $15M a year and three times that in guaranteed money. DG will probably give it to him in order to justify the trade.
RE: I think the Leonard Williams trade  
jeff57 : 12/9/2019 9:49 am : link
In comment 14708242 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
should get Gettleman fired.

Stupid then, stupid now.


Yep.
He has the Giants over a barrel  
jeff57 : 12/9/2019 9:50 am : link
Thanks Dave.
Having no guarantee beyond this year  
Rudy5757 : 12/9/2019 9:50 am : link
makes it a very questionable trade. He is a very good player but we need multiple players and he could have been had in FA probably for the same money we are going to pay him anyway. If we dont resign him we just gave the Jets 2 picks for nothing.
RE: I don't think it's clear which tag he would get Britt  
Britt in VA : 12/9/2019 9:50 am : link
In comment 14708269 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
when the Jets exercised his 5th year option the NFL had to determine whether he counted as a DT or DE, and they determined DE. That's why he made 14m this year vs. 11m. I would guess based on precedent his tag would be DE again.

Either way it doesn't matter. It's a few $M difference in a year we project to have $80m+ cap room and by the time we get to march there will be very few appealing targets for it. Certainly not very many 25/26 year old starters with a healthy track record, a top pedigree, and upside willing to take a 1 year deal.

Pay him for 1 year at the top tier like he wants, and motivate him to get that big deal he wants and help this team build a winner.


There are two notes of distinction in that quote:

1. He considers himself an interior lineman, and mentions Donald. So I think it's fair to assume he could get tagged as a DT.

2. He considers himself really good, but also not in Donald's class. That shows me that he's open to negotiation yet not unreasonable. Had he said "I consider myself in Donald's class..." I might be more worried about it than I am.
Gettleman should lose his job for this trade, it just makes no sense  
Ben in Tampa : 12/9/2019 9:50 am : link
and I like Williams as a player.

I think the transition tag is what happens here.
There is absolutely nothing misleading about the headline...  
Tesla : 12/9/2019 9:51 am : link
Williams literally said he wants to get "a big contract" and that if he doesn't he's willing to test free agency.
RE: Important to note  
christian : 12/9/2019 9:51 am : link
In comment 14708255 Britt in VA said:
Quote:


Quote:


ďI definitely think Iím a top-tier interior defensive lineman, in that top percentage of the d-linemen. I wouldnít say Aaron Donald [level]. But I would definitely put myself up there with a lot of those other top guys.Ē



Franchising him as a DT vs. DE is a big difference.


The interior vs exterior lineman difference was about 2M last year.

There are some big DT numbers this and next year, so I'd expect it to narrow a bit.
It's clear that he thinks of himself....  
Tesla : 12/9/2019 9:53 am : link
in the class of DL just below Aaron Donald. Those guys make around $18M/year.....so it's pretty obvious he'll be looking for at least that much...which is precisely what many of the smarter posters here predicted as soon as the trade was made.

I don't care so much about taking fliers on mid round draft picks  
JonC : 12/9/2019 9:54 am : link
but compounding it by giving LW open market dollars would really piss me off.
We draft Chase Young....  
Britt in VA : 12/9/2019 9:54 am : link
and all the sudden we're looking at a line that involves Young, Williams, and Lawrence.

That sounds pretty damn good to me.
...  
christian : 12/9/2019 9:55 am : link
And if I'm not mistaken, his number would be at a minimum of 17.2M for a tag, as 120% of his previous salary.
RE: There is absolutely nothing misleading about the headline...  
Essex : 12/9/2019 9:55 am : link
In comment 14708279 Tesla said:
Quote:
Williams literally said he wants to get "a big contract" and that if he doesn't he's willing to test free agency.


That is nice, but we can stop him for a one year deal. Do you think he wants to sign a multi year deal not in the top 5 of interior lineman? We can get him for that price for one year unless he agrees to a long term multi year deal. It is amazing to me how people think LW has us over a barrel.
RE: It's clear that he thinks of himself....  
Britt in VA : 12/9/2019 9:55 am : link
In comment 14708290 Tesla said:
Quote:
in the class of DL just below Aaron Donald. Those guys make around $18M/year.....so it's pretty obvious he'll be looking for at least that much...which is precisely what many of the smarter posters here predicted as soon as the trade was made.


Which is why franchising him for 15 million is a decent move for us, and not a world is ending move as some are describing it.
The smart thing to do now would be to Transition Tag him  
jlukes : 12/9/2019 9:55 am : link
you don't negotiate against yourself and let him get an offer on the open market and then you get the choice to match his offer or not.
RE: The smart thing to do now would be to Transition Tag him  
Essex : 12/9/2019 9:58 am : link
In comment 14708303 jlukes said:
Quote:
you don't negotiate against yourself and let him get an offer on the open market and then you get the choice to match his offer or not.

I somewhat agree but it is more of a risk if someone does something stupid and there are stupid owners in the NFL. The leverage is that if we sign him for a one year deal (an look this guy is looking for top 5 money on the open market) he is at total risk for the extra guaranteed millions next year and risks a long term deal by aging a year and not having as good a year. So, why let some idiot like Daniel Synder set the terms for us when we can just franchise tag him.
RE: ...  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 9:59 am : link
In comment 14708299 christian said:
Quote:
And if I'm not mistaken, his number would be at a minimum of 17.2M for a tag, as 120% of his previous salary.


The projected, general DT tag is $16M. For DEs, $19M+.
What happens if the Giants acquire another 3rd round pick  
ghost718 : 12/9/2019 10:00 am : link
Than either resign Williams or let him walk.Could depend on what defense they're running a year from now.

Nevertheless,a lot of time obsessing over something that has not played out yet.
RE: We draft Chase Young....  
Dnew15 : 12/9/2019 10:01 am : link
In comment 14708297 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and all the sudden we're looking at a line that involves Young, Williams, and Lawrence.

That sounds pretty damn good to me.


I mean - if there's a reason to get excited about the defense moving forward - this has to be it...right?

Giants can already stop the run now that they've got LW, if they can rush the passer from the edges - all of sudden LW gets some sacks when the QB has to step up in the pocket and he looks a lot better on paper and all those millions look well spent.
I would prefer to tag him  
Jay on the Island : 12/9/2019 10:01 am : link
rather than hand him a massive long term deal. If the Giants land Chase Young it will benefit Leonard Williams as most of the attention would be directed towards Young and Dexter Lawrence.

If Williams has a great season next year then the Giants can give him the long term deal he wants. If not then they can just move on and let him sign with another team and collect a comp pick.
RE: The smart thing to do now would be to Transition Tag him  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 10:01 am : link
In comment 14708303 jlukes said:
Quote:
you don't negotiate against yourself and let him get an offer on the open market and then you get the choice to match his offer or not.


Just for the record, there is NO compensation for losing a player after not matching another bidder. Essentially, that situation outcome is GM suicide...

Lost draft picks and said player leaves.
We overpaid for him in this trade  
SGMen : 12/9/2019 10:01 am : link
If he had one more year on his contract, fine, OK trade but that was NOT the case.

If we lose him we likely get a #3 compensatory pick at best. We lose out in terms of overall gain if we lose him and just get a comp pick in return.

And if we over-pay a run stuffer, well, what does that say about our judgment as a team???
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 12/9/2019 10:02 am : link
In comment 14708311 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14708299 christian said:


Quote:


And if I'm not mistaken, his number would be at a minimum of 17.2M for a tag, as 120% of his previous salary.



The projected, general DT tag is $16M. For DEs, $19M+.


The franchise tag distinction states it's the greater of either 1) the average top 5 salaries or 2) 120% of the player's previous year salary.

Williams made 14.2M last year, so the greater number would be 120% if last year. I'm pretty sure that 17.2M will be the number.
How many more dumb things  
Marty866b : 12/9/2019 10:03 am : link
Will it take for the owners to get rid of this incompetent GM?
RE: The smart thing to do now would be to Transition Tag him  
BlueLou'sBack : 12/9/2019 10:04 am : link
In comment 14708303 jlukes said:
Quote:
you don't negotiate against yourself and let him get an offer on the open market and then you get the choice to match his offer or not.


Agree. Historically, teams don't go all out to sign guys that are transition tagged. I'm pretty sure (not 100%) of that.
Obviously Team LW...  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 10:04 am : link
have come to their senses and know the market.

LW is seeking at least $18M/yr. Iíve predicted this for a month.

The best outcome is this, and itís a long shot to salvage this incompetent trade by our moronic GM:

Sign LW and then trade him. And try to scrape back similar comp to what we originally wasted...

What a catastrophe...
so for a 3-4 defense  
Justlurking : 12/9/2019 10:04 am : link
assuming he signs -

DG will have used a 1st (Dlaw), a high 3rd (BJ Hill), replaced that high third with another high third PLUS a 4th PLUS paying LW 10% our our cap space. (in addition to the 2017 2nd rounder)

For positions that theyre supposed to eat blockers and make room for the LBs to make tackles.

Any people still dont understand what I mean when I say DG does not understand asset allocation and positional value.

He is the worst general manager in the NFL. He has to go.
It amazes  
MookGiants : 12/9/2019 10:05 am : link
me that even one person on here defends this trade on any level. Yet here we are with many people defending it.

RE: RE: RE: ...  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 10:06 am : link
In comment 14708322 christian said:
Quote:
In comment 14708311 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14708299 christian said:


Quote:


And if I'm not mistaken, his number would be at a minimum of 17.2M for a tag, as 120% of his previous salary.



The projected, general DT tag is $16M. For DEs, $19M+.



The franchise tag distinction states it's the greater of either 1) the average top 5 salaries or 2) 120% of the player's previous year salary.

Williams made 14.2M last year, so the greater number would be 120% if last year. I'm pretty sure that 17.2M will be the number.


I was just providing the general projections.

But I agree with your math.
RE: It's clear that he thinks of himself....  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 10:08 am : link
In comment 14708290 Tesla said:
Quote:
in the class of DL just below Aaron Donald. Those guys make around $18M/year.....so it's pretty obvious he'll be looking for at least that much...which is precisely what many of the smarter posters here predicted as soon as the trade was made.


No. He thinks heís as good as Grady Jarrett, who signed this summer for $17M/yr.

And their stats are eerily similar.
RE: It amazes  
Justlurking : 12/9/2019 10:10 am : link
In comment 14708329 MookGiants said:
Quote:
me that even one person on here defends this trade on any level. Yet here we are with many people defending it.


its all the old people who get excited when Gettleman says things like hog mollies, smash mouth football, talks about the culture and being adults and remember the time when football was played by men who were tough.
What I find so hilarious about this God-awful trade  
bceagle05 : 12/9/2019 10:10 am : link
is this little sneak peak we're giving him of life with the Giants may actually HURT our chances of re-signing him. Guy's probably thinking, "Damn, I thought the Jets were a mess."
I've been generally on board with what Gettleman has done, but this  
Victor in CT : 12/9/2019 10:10 am : link
trade just makes no sense at all to me. 2 picks for a good, not great player who can walk after the season is just completely illogical.
RE: It amazes  
Essex : 12/9/2019 10:11 am : link
In comment 14708329 MookGiants said:
Quote:
me that even one person on here defends this trade on any level. Yet here we are with many people defending it.

our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.
RE: RE: It's clear that he thinks of himself....  
jeff57 : 12/9/2019 10:11 am : link
In comment 14708331 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14708290 Tesla said:


Quote:


in the class of DL just below Aaron Donald. Those guys make around $18M/year.....so it's pretty obvious he'll be looking for at least that much...which is precisely what many of the smarter posters here predicted as soon as the trade was made.




No. He thinks heís as good as Grady Jarrett, who signed this summer for $17M/yr.

And their stats are eerily similar.


Grady Jarrett 2020: 5.5 sacks. Leonard Williams 2020: 0 sacks
RE: RE: It amazes  
Justlurking : 12/9/2019 10:14 am : link
In comment 14708338 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 14708329 MookGiants said:


Quote:


me that even one person on here defends this trade on any level. Yet here we are with many people defending it.



our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.


please name one other team that has traded picks away for a free agent at 2-6. I'll wait.

Good teams dont make idiotic moves like this. If you like him, sign him as a FA.
Transition tag  
pjcas18 : 12/9/2019 10:17 am : link
for Williams is probably the worst option for the Giants because:

a) it would have to be at least 120% of his current 2019 salary ($14.2M), so basically same as the Franchise Tag.

b) if he does sign an offer elsewhere and the Giants don't match, he walks and they get nothing.

The Giants would be better off non-exclusive franchise tag, signing him long term or letting him walk.

All better options than transition tag which would be the worst option.

you really need to hold the paper upside down and backwards  
hitdog42 : 12/9/2019 10:18 am : link
to get behind this trade.
and some continue to try to do so, maybe squint at it, hold one eye shut.
just terrible
here's a quick exercise for the 'tagging him is awful' crowd  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 10:19 am : link
right now pretty much everyone projects the Giants around $60m in cap room, without many to resign.

Ogletree, Kareem Martin, Beathea, and Ellison = another $20m saved which brings the number around $80m (with the possibility to go further if they trade Jenkins, but that's uncertain so lets keep him).

Now let's tag LW at $17m to bring the cap room to $63m.
And add in the rookie pool that's projected at $13m which brings us down to $50m.

Which other big money, multi-year, ($10m+ AAV) players are you looking to some of that $50m on? And not looking for exact contracts or anything, just who you like and think may be available and not resigned by their existing team like Shaq Thompson or tagged like Ngakwe is widely expected to be.
...  
christian : 12/9/2019 10:20 am : link
Forget the picks, basically a sunk cost.

Question is if Williams is 1) worth the Jarret market rate he will command in UFA 2) is he worth a 17.2M hit to the Giants spending power this year, and the uncertainty it puts on resources 3) is he worth the potential of a pissing match if he's franchised and not happy about it.

My POV is consistent this isn't the type of player to go in circles over. Consternation should be reserved for better players.
Thought it was a decent trade  
Giants in 07 : 12/9/2019 10:21 am : link
And I like how he's played.

They wouldn't have traded him without the intent to resign him, so I'm looking forward to the defensive line next year, especially if we add Chase
thankfully we traded picks  
Justlurking : 12/9/2019 10:21 am : link
in order to get this dilemma. Was thinking that the Giants didnt have enough issues to deal with after the season.
RE: you really need to hold the paper upside down and backwards  
mfsd : 12/9/2019 10:23 am : link
In comment 14708352 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
to get behind this trade.
and some continue to try to do so, maybe squint at it, hold one eye shut.
just terrible


Yup. I generally lean to the optimistic, wait and see side, but I just canít think of one good reason a team stuck in the mud and going nowhere should surrender multiple draft picks for a guy who could reasonably be a solid starter, but doesnít seem to remotely be a pro-Bowl caliber building block.
RE: RE: RE: It amazes  
Essex : 12/9/2019 10:23 am : link
In comment 14708344 Justlurking said:
Quote:
In comment 14708338 Essex said:


Quote:


In comment 14708329 MookGiants said:


Quote:


me that even one person on here defends this trade on any level. Yet here we are with many people defending it.



our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.



please name one other team that has traded picks away for a free agent at 2-6. I'll wait.

Good teams dont make idiotic moves like this. If you like him, sign him as a FA.

so what you are basically saying is that you would rather get into a bidding war versus another team but retain the 3rd and 5th round picks. Maybe so, but I definitely think there is a price tag that I would pay to save cap space and give up a 3rd and a 5. I have no idea what that is at this point, but cap space is also an asset. In addition, we won't be able to evaluate this until the ink is dry on the contract.
RE: RE: RE: It's clear that he thinks of himself....  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 10:23 am : link
In comment 14708339 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708331 bw in dc said:


Quote:


In comment 14708290 Tesla said:


Quote:


in the class of DL just below Aaron Donald. Those guys make around $18M/year.....so it's pretty obvious he'll be looking for at least that much...which is precisely what many of the smarter posters here predicted as soon as the trade was made.




No. He thinks heís as good as Grady Jarrett, who signed this summer for $17M/yr.

And their stats are eerily similar.



Grady Jarrett 2020: 5.5 sacks. Leonard Williams 2020: 0 sacks


Look at their career stats over 5 years.

Jarrett: 19.5 sacks/238 tackles/128 solos/5 FF / 0 PDs
LW: 17 sacks/250 tackles/125 solos/3 FFs/4 PDs

So Jackson signed his contract for $17M BEFORE his 5.5 sacks THIS YEAR.
RE: We draft Chase Young....  
liteamorn : 12/9/2019 10:24 am : link
In comment 14708297 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and all the sudden we're looking at a line that involves Young, Williams, and Lawrence.

That sounds pretty damn good to me.

Not with Bettcher running the D
Guess I am missing  
Lines of Scrimmage : 12/9/2019 10:24 am : link
something. Seems to be a guy who appreciates that the Giants really wanted him and he wants to get paid for his talent. He wants to win....great.

Giants will pay him his market value. Did Eli give a home discount? Strahan? Snee?

The important thing what ever he is paid...he earns it imo.

RE: We draft Chase Young....  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 10:26 am : link
In comment 14708297 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and all the sudden we're looking at a line that involves Young, Williams, and Lawrence.

That sounds pretty damn good to me.


If they draft Chase Young and are staying in a 3-4 playing him with his hand in the dirt would be a waste.
he's not and never was  
Justlurking : 12/9/2019 10:26 am : link
giving any kind of discount. the trade was and is indefensible and is grounds for DGs removal
RE: RE: you really need to hold the paper upside down and backwards  
hitdog42 : 12/9/2019 10:26 am : link
In comment 14708367 mfsd said:
Quote:
In comment 14708352 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


to get behind this trade.
and some continue to try to do so, maybe squint at it, hold one eye shut.
just terrible



Yup. I generally lean to the optimistic, wait and see side, but I just canít think of one good reason a team stuck in the mud and going nowhere should surrender multiple draft picks for a guy who could reasonably be a solid starter, but doesnít seem to remotely be a pro-Bowl caliber building block.


its very simple... if they wanted him, they could sign him in the off-season, or at least see how the season, offseason evolves and make a decision. instead they traded draft capital (a top 70 pick) for the right to have a stubborn GM pay up for the guy because you know he wont want egg on his face for not resigning him.

nice
RE: What I find so hilarious about this God-awful trade  
trueblueinpw : 12/9/2019 10:27 am : link
In comment 14708336 bceagle05 said:
Quote:
is this little sneak peak we're giving him of life with the Giants may actually HURT our chances of re-signing him. Guy's probably thinking, "Damn, I thought the Jets were a mess."


Yes, absolutely an under discussed aspect of this trade. What would be the attraction of the Giants for LW? Poor record, shaky GM situation, high taxes and cost of living, not a very clear future at all. If anything should concern people itís that LW wants to be on a winning team. That ainít the Giants. Not this year and not next year either.

Dumbest trade ever.
RE: Guess I am missing  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 10:27 am : link
In comment 14708374 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
something. Seems to be a guy who appreciates that the Giants really wanted him and he wants to get paid for his talent. He wants to win....great.

Giants will pay him his market value. Did Eli give a home discount? Strahan? Snee?

The important thing what ever he is paid...he earns it imo.


And he hasn't earned what he'll likely get on the open market because of the abundance of cap space.

This spring will be similar to the 2016 NBA Offseason. Tons of teams with cap space, not enough elite talent to go around so marginal players will get top end money.
I havnt been AS hard on this trade as many  
Thankyoueli : 12/9/2019 10:28 am : link
But I was hoping for a contract around 12-13m a year...

Any more than 15 a year and this is a horrific trade.
I would either franchise him for a year  
WalterSobchak : 12/9/2019 10:29 am : link
or just let him walk and cut our loses. This trade was an abject disaster. And should be reason enough to fire Ghettoman alone , to say nothing of all the other god awful thing hes done. Worst GM in the league imo
Being a good GM requires having good foresight. Any of us can trade  
Jim in Hoboken : 12/9/2019 10:30 am : link
for or sign a player, only to discover the player is terrible or a bad fit and then cut or trade him later. We wouldnít retain the job if that happens repeatedly, only Gettleman gets to do it over and over and tell us how smart he is.

If the Patriots or Chiefs offer him 15M per and he comes to the Giants say I need $18M a year to stay because you fucking suck, what does Gettleman do? You lose either way, overpay or lose picks for nothing!!!

To those that say heís a good player, has he made a difference this year and is he worth an overpay to retain? Any of you think heíd take a hometown discount because heís here? After seeing how this team is run?
BW - aren't you proving the point that LW may be a good player?  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 10:30 am : link
if his stats are similar to Grady Jarrett, who got tagged last year and commanded the salary he did?

Browsing some additional indicating stats, LW seems to crush GJ in QB hits (97 for his career 53) though GJ has more TFL (40 vs. 33).
RE: RE: It amazes  
rsjem1979 : 12/9/2019 10:31 am : link
In comment 14708338 Essex said:
Quote:

our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.


I believe you left the Cowboys game out of your statistic.

I'd add that the Bears and Jets are two of the worst rushing offenses in the league (3.5 and 3.3 YPC, respectively) and both had huge days in the passing game against the Giants.

And every time the Packers went play-action they hit a big play downfield in the passing game.

Even if Williams has had a positive impact on the run defense, so what? The Giants were 2-6 when they made the trade, giving up draft assets to acquire a pending UFA. That's a preposterous move for a team with as many holes as the Giants.

Now people are going to talk themselves into tagging Williams for 2020. How does that help the Giants going forward?
RE: We draft Chase Young....  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2019 10:32 am : link
In comment 14708297 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
and all the sudden we're looking at a line that involves Young, Williams, and Lawrence.

That sounds pretty damn good to me.

it certainly does. I like Young, Williams, Lawrence AND my 3rd round pick this year and my 4th round pick next year even better though. And that's the point.
Stupidest trade by him  
micky : 12/9/2019 10:32 am : link
Clueless
i didn't want to think this trade was as stupid as it is  
markky : 12/9/2019 10:35 am : link
but it is.

would have been better to go after him in the offseason. even if we had then overpaid we wouldn't be giving up draft picks. it would have made overpaying a little less painful.

RE: RE: We draft Chase Young....  
jeff57 : 12/9/2019 10:35 am : link
In comment 14708400 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14708297 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


and all the sudden we're looking at a line that involves Young, Williams, and Lawrence.

That sounds pretty damn good to me.


it certainly does. I like Young, Williams, Lawrence AND my 3rd round pick this year and my 4th round pick next year even better though. And that's the point.


Young has played in a 4-3.
RE: RE: RE: It amazes  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 10:36 am : link
In comment 14708396 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708338 Essex said:


Quote:



our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.



I believe you left the Cowboys game out of your statistic.

I'd add that the Bears and Jets are two of the worst rushing offenses in the league (3.5 and 3.3 YPC, respectively) and both had huge days in the passing game against the Giants.

And every time the Packers went play-action they hit a big play downfield in the passing game.

Even if Williams has had a positive impact on the run defense, so what? The Giants were 2-6 when they made the trade, giving up draft assets to acquire a pending UFA. That's a preposterous move for a team with as many holes as the Giants.

Now people are going to talk themselves into tagging Williams for 2020. How does that help the Giants going forward?


Lets also not leave out that the Jets run defense has stayed the same/improved since he got traded.
RE: RE: What I find so hilarious about this God-awful trade  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 10:37 am : link
In comment 14708382 trueblueinpw said:
Quote:

Yes, absolutely an under discussed aspect of this trade. What would be the attraction of the Giants for LW? Poor record, shaky GM situation, high taxes and cost of living, not a very clear future at all. If anything should concern people itís that LW wants to be on a winning team. That ainít the Giants. Not this year and not next year either.

Dumbest trade ever.


The trade is galacticlly stupid on various levels. Here are five:

1. We should have been sellers, not buyers at 2-6.
2. We actually have a nice supply of DTs currently on the team. And at reasonable salaries.
3. LW is a solid player, but not great. And we already have those players.
4. We have away a 3rd and 5th draft picks for: see #2 and #3.
5. LW's salary demands, as expected, are going to be high. We could use that money for much bigger needs.

Gettleman is an absolute imbecile for making this move.
RE: RE: It's clear that he thinks of himself....  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2019 10:37 am : link
In comment 14708302 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14708290 Tesla said:


Quote:


in the class of DL just below Aaron Donald. Those guys make around $18M/year.....so it's pretty obvious he'll be looking for at least that much...which is precisely what many of the smarter posters here predicted as soon as the trade was made.




Which is why franchising him for 15 million is a decent move for us, and not a world is ending move as some are describing it.

First of all, you're locked onto him getting the DT tag, which seems unlikely regardless of which player he referenced - the NFL determined he was a DE a year ago for the purposes of his 5th year option. And even if they change course and consider him a DT this time around, his 2019 salary will still be a basis number for his 2020 tag, so he'll get more than the standard DT franchise tag salary.

Either way, it's starting to shape up in such a fashion that the only thing our draft picks bought us was the ability to tag Williams. And I don't think it's nearly the sure thing benefit that you're making it out to be.

If he was our own player for the past 5 years and everything else was equal, would we legitimately be considering tagging him? Or are you chasing the sunk cost of the draft picks by tagging him so that acquiring him in the first place had any value at all in a lost season?

I think it's the latter, but am interested in your view on it.
RE: I don't care so much about taking fliers on mid round draft picks  
barens : 12/9/2019 10:41 am : link
In comment 14708294 JonC said:
Quote:
but compounding it by giving LW open market dollars would really piss me off.


Yup, totally agree.
like with beckham  
Ned In Atlanta : 12/9/2019 10:43 am : link
I defended him until the lil wayne interview

i have defended Gettleman but I think that this trade might be it for me

With all the cap space teams have this year, it would be  
Jimmy Googs : 12/9/2019 10:44 am : link
shocking LW couldnít get some team in big need of any d-lineman to sign with them above $15m

this  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/9/2019 10:46 am : link
is getting worse by the moment.
See the problem if Williams ends up walking  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 10:48 am : link
is that we'll already be in the middle of the offseason so Gettleman won't get fired.

We'd be stuck with him for another year. And probably set back even further.
Look, nobody is arguing that Williams is a bad player  
jcn56 : 12/9/2019 10:52 am : link
But can anyone honestly say that they think he's worth $18M a year based on what he's shown to date?

You're entering 'hopeful' territory at that salary, as in 'the Giants are hopeful that in a different system with more talent around him he'll be better than he has been to date'.

Does that sound like 'pay me as the best DT on the market' play to you?

And even if it does - does it sound like something that it should have cost picks to sign him for?

It was a bad move - it's indefensible. Paying him top dollar by itself would be curious, but you could say 'wait to see if he earns it'. Here, they traded picks for the right to overpay him.
Stopping the Run  
Lambuth_Special : 12/9/2019 11:03 am : link
Is not a pre-requisite for winning.

Go look at past superbowl participants. Some were great at stopping the run, some were mediocre, a few were even bad (2016 ATL Falcons). Most (if not all) superbowl teams great at stopping the run were also great at stopping the pass.

How about we try to build a great defense at all three levels instead of overstuffing the roster with DTs to occupy space for playmaking linebackers that don't exist.
RE: RE: RE: you really need to hold the paper upside down and backwards  
mfsd : 12/9/2019 11:08 am : link
In comment 14708380 hitdog42 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708367 mfsd said:


Quote:


In comment 14708352 hitdog42 said:


Quote:


to get behind this trade.
and some continue to try to do so, maybe squint at it, hold one eye shut.
just terrible



Yup. I generally lean to the optimistic, wait and see side, but I just canít think of one good reason a team stuck in the mud and going nowhere should surrender multiple draft picks for a guy who could reasonably be a solid starter, but doesnít seem to remotely be a pro-Bowl caliber building block.



its very simple... if they wanted him, they could sign him in the off-season, or at least see how the season, offseason evolves and make a decision. instead they traded draft capital (a top 70 pick) for the right to have a stubborn GM pay up for the guy because you know he wont want egg on his face for not resigning him.

nice


The obvious footnote being, since weíre cruising to another top 3 pick, the picks we gave up will be at the top of their respective rounds

Fook
Bye Bye Leonard  
Carson53 : 12/9/2019 11:10 am : link
stupid trade by Gettleman to begin with, didn't see the logic of the trade or the timing of it.
You are basically saying I made a couple mistakes with
my own draft picks on the defensive front...
I was ok with it  
Joey in VA : 12/9/2019 11:11 am : link
Initially but I have done a complete 180 on Gettleman. This trade is horrible he is horrible and we suck more than ever and it's his fault.
The Jets sure seem to have missed this guy since trading him.  
Dave in Hoboken : 12/9/2019 11:19 am : link
...
RE: I think the Leonard Williams trade  
NYG007 : 12/9/2019 11:21 am : link
In comment 14708242 Mr. Bungle said:
Quote:
should get Gettleman fired.

Stupid then, stupid now.


I absolutely wanted to keep DG until this trade. He should be, by no means, in charge of a franchise after that trade. Williams has legit sucked for 2 years and he get's Dolan'd by the Jets.
RE: RE: RE: RE: It amazes  
gmenatlarge : 12/9/2019 11:26 am : link
In comment 14708370 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 14708344 Justlurking said:


Quote:


In comment 14708338 Essex said:


Quote:


In comment 14708329 MookGiants said:


Quote:


me that even one person on here defends this trade on any level. Yet here we are with many people defending it.



our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.



please name one other team that has traded picks away for a free agent at 2-6. I'll wait.

Good teams dont make idiotic moves like this. If you like him, sign him as a FA.


so what you are basically saying is that you would rather get into a bidding war versus another team but retain the 3rd and 5th round picks. Maybe so, but I definitely think there is a price tag that I would pay to save cap space and give up a 3rd and a 5. I have no idea what that is at this point, but cap space is also an asset. In addition, we won't be able to evaluate this until the ink is dry on the contract.


The only way LW doesn't go FA is if the giants OVERPAY for him, nobody gives the home team discount when FA $ is coming!
RE: I was ok with it  
liteamorn : 12/9/2019 11:27 am : link
In comment 14708502 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Initially but I have done a complete 180 on Gettleman. This trade is horrible he is horrible and we suck more than ever and it's his fault.

I was too, I thought we were making moves we needed to make but we're still the same...maybe worse. I don't know if it's his fault or Bettcher's but 3rd and long is a given anymore. We stop very few teams when we have to.
There's no way DG does the trade without John Mara's  
shyster : 12/9/2019 11:28 am : link
full support.

DG will be on his way at some point, by retirement or otherwise, but Giants will still have the man in charge of football operations who thought "Hey, yeah, that sounds like a good idea."
Zero  
Les in TO : 12/9/2019 11:29 am : link
Sacks 12 pressures in a contract year lol
RE: BW - aren't you proving the point that LW may be a good player?  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 11:29 am : link
In comment 14708394 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
if his stats are similar to Grady Jarrett, who got tagged last year and commanded the salary he did?

Browsing some additional indicating stats, LW seems to crush GJ in QB hits (97 for his career 53) though GJ has more TFL (40 vs. 33).


You are presupposing that I think Jarrett was a good, smart signing by Atlanta. I'm merely using him, based on his stats, as the benchmark for LW's contract demands.

Like I said, I actually think we have a nice young blend of DTs on reasonable contracts. And players who look to be as good as LW. So essentially we added a clone.

An enormously expensive clone.
RE: Williams  
NYDCBlue : 12/9/2019 11:31 am : link
In comment 14708256 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
has all the leverage.

Giants only recourse is the FT, which would make a bad trade worse.


Can't he be transition tagged? He is not worth the FT....
RE: RE: Williams  
pjcas18 : 12/9/2019 11:32 am : link
In comment 14708534 NYDCBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14708256 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


has all the leverage.

Giants only recourse is the FT, which would make a bad trade worse.



Can't he be transition tagged? He is not worth the FT....


Same $$$.

Both tags need to be "at least" 20% more than his prior year salary.
RE: Guess I am missing  
Mr. Bungle : 12/9/2019 11:34 am : link
In comment 14708374 Lines of Scrimmage said:
Quote:
Did Eli give a home discount? Strahan? Snee

You mean two-time Super Bowl MVP Eli? You mean Hall of Famer Strahan? You mean four-time Pro Bowler Chris Snee?

You include Leonard Williams in that group because...?
1 of the most complained about decisions last year was not tagging LC  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 11:35 am : link
would be nice if there was some consistency because I'd imagine there's plenty of crossover between the people who think DG was a moron for letting LC walk and yet think tagging Williams would be blasphemy.

I personally would have had no problem tagging LC last year at the expense of some of the FA moves they made (or if they had to cut some others like Jenkins to make room).

The differences between the decisions make me think it's even more of a no-brainer for LW though, starting with the facts that 1) they have more room to afford it, 2) he's only played half a season here, and 3) they may not be able to get a good comp pick out of it like they presumably will for LC.
RE: 1 of the most complained about decisions last year was not tagging LC  
jcn56 : 12/9/2019 11:38 am : link
In comment 14708541 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
would be nice if there was some consistency because I'd imagine there's plenty of crossover between the people who think DG was a moron for letting LC walk and yet think tagging Williams would be blasphemy.

I personally would have had no problem tagging LC last year at the expense of some of the FA moves they made (or if they had to cut some others like Jenkins to make room).

The differences between the decisions make me think it's even more of a no-brainer for LW though, starting with the facts that 1) they have more room to afford it, 2) he's only played half a season here, and 3) they may not be able to get a good comp pick out of it like they presumably will for LC.


Collins had been an All Pro and a multiple Pro Bowl selection - to that point in his career, he had exhibited more than Leonard Williams.

And that still just skips past the most galling part of all this - that Gettleman TRADED 2 PICKS for the right to tag Williams. That's why people are upset - it's not 'consistent' because it's a completely different situation.
RE: 1 of the most complained about decisions last year was not tagging LC  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 11:41 am : link
In comment 14708541 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
would be nice if there was some consistency because I'd imagine there's plenty of crossover between the people who think DG was a moron for letting LC walk and yet think tagging Williams would be blasphemy.

I personally would have had no problem tagging LC last year at the expense of some of the FA moves they made (or if they had to cut some others like Jenkins to make room).

The differences between the decisions make me think it's even more of a no-brainer for LW though, starting with the facts that 1) they have more room to afford it, 2) he's only played half a season here, and 3) they may not be able to get a good comp pick out of it like they presumably will for LC.


The situations are nowhere near the same.

One player was All Pro who had seasons were he played well.

The other player was acquired using draft capital and will command a big deal regardless of whether you franchise tag him.

Neither player should be tagged but tagging Williams is worse and doesn't make the trade any better.
RE: RE: 1 of the most complained about decisions last year was not tagging LC  
Essex : 12/9/2019 11:46 am : link
In comment 14708546 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708541 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


would be nice if there was some consistency because I'd imagine there's plenty of crossover between the people who think DG was a moron for letting LC walk and yet think tagging Williams would be blasphemy.

I personally would have had no problem tagging LC last year at the expense of some of the FA moves they made (or if they had to cut some others like Jenkins to make room).

The differences between the decisions make me think it's even more of a no-brainer for LW though, starting with the facts that 1) they have more room to afford it, 2) he's only played half a season here, and 3) they may not be able to get a good comp pick out of it like they presumably will for LC.



Collins had been an All Pro and a multiple Pro Bowl selection - to that point in his career, he had exhibited more than Leonard Williams.

And that still just skips past the most galling part of all this - that Gettleman TRADED 2 PICKS for the right to tag Williams. That's why people are upset - it's not 'consistent' because it's a completely different situation.

Collins was a liability while he was out there because he could not cover. So, yeah, he could be All-Pro all you want, Collins more often than not hurt his team. Williams, even if he is not an elite pass rusher or an all pro, is not a liability at all. The going rate for older, benched Defensive Lineman like Malik Jackson was 10 million a year. So what if we franchise him and pay him 17+ million next year. There is so much to legitimately criticize Gettleman about, this, to me, seems to be last on the list until we, at least, see how it plays out.
A whole lot of people who didn't really understand  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/9/2019 11:46 am : link
NFL salaries and cap and tags saying this was a great trade.
I'm still willing to wait and see....  
MOOPS : 12/9/2019 11:55 am : link
how this plays out before condemning DG.
Williams is going to get paid, whether by us or someone else this offseason. We did gain the inside track with the trade and probably the majority of top tier players (excluding head cases and malcontents) wind up staying put in the long run.
The uncertainty with the coaching staff is obviously a negative.
I'm also waiting to see how it plays out, but this is not looking like  
Ira : 12/9/2019 11:59 am : link
a good move on Gettleman's part.
So a player about to be a FA wants the Giants to pay him like a FA  
sb from NYT Forum : 12/9/2019 11:59 am : link
....so why again didnít Gettleman just wait for him to be a FA?
Maybe a little late to this party, but my 2 cents  
Biteymax22 : 12/9/2019 12:01 pm : link
1) Like a few other of you, this trade was my "done with Gettleman" moment. Good player and I like him, but a 2-6 team should not be buyers at the trade deadline, especially for players with no remaining time on their contracts.

2) Arguing about Williams true worth does us not good, the bigger question is what else can we do with the money we would be paying him. Would we rather have Leonard Williams for 12m a year, or an offensive tackle who can actually block? Or how about that money nets us a starting center and high end depth at LB? In other words, can it net us starters at thinner positions or even multiple starters.

3) For those looking at the potential comp picks for him, those would be for the 2021 draft and would probably be negated if we decide to spend big in free agency. So they really aren't worth even looking at.

Set a value for him, it goes over that, let him walk.
RE: RE: RE: 1 of the most complained about decisions last year was not tagging LC  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14708556 Essex said:
Quote:


Collins was a liability while he was out there because he could not cover. So, yeah, he could be All-Pro all you want, Collins more often than not hurt his team. Williams, even if he is not an elite pass rusher or an all pro, is not a liability at all. The going rate for older, benched Defensive Lineman like Malik Jackson was 10 million a year. So what if we franchise him and pay him 17+ million next year. There is so much to legitimately criticize Gettleman about, this, to me, seems to be last on the list until we, at least, see how it plays out.


A few questions...

1. What exactly does LW do that we haven't been able to get from our current DTs at much cheaper contracts?

2. So that $17M FT on LW is more important for LW's skills than other needs we have?
RE: So a player about to be a FA wants the Giants to pay him like a FA  
Essex : 12/9/2019 12:03 pm : link
In comment 14708582 sb from NYT Forum said:
Quote:
....so why again didnít Gettleman just wait for him to be a FA?

because he would pay more money in Free Agency than if you had him now with some leverage to get a team friendly deal. And, if Williams isn't willing to take less money, you franchise him until he will. The cost of this trade is the cap savings we make vs the value of the picks we gave up. Obviously, they can't be quantified directly against each other but if we save a whole bunch of cap money than losing the picks might be worth it because then we can spend the savings elsewhere on a proven NFL player as opposed to crapshoot.
I've seen players say things like this a million times  
Brown Recluse : 12/9/2019 12:07 pm : link
only to see the final contract numbers and think to myself, "Oh...well that's not so bad."

He is saying what he's supposed to say. Why on Earth would he be a moron and tell the media he doesn't want to be paid well? Let it play out.

Or continue hyperventilating over everything which is typical with sports and politics anymore.

Your choice.
RE: RE: RE: RE: 1 of the most complained about decisions last year was not tagging LC  
Brown Recluse : 12/9/2019 12:12 pm : link
In comment 14708590 bw in dc said:
Quote:
.

1. What exactly does LW do that we haven't been able to get from our current DTs at much cheaper contracts?


He does do some pretty obvious things our cheaper DT's don't. I'm surprised BBI's crystal ball-toting draft expert slash cap expert slash analytics expert even has to ask.
RE: RE: So a player about to be a FA wants the Giants to pay him like a FA  
rsjem1979 : 12/9/2019 12:15 pm : link
In comment 14708591 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 14708582 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


....so why again didnít Gettleman just wait for him to be a FA?


because he would pay more money in Free Agency than if you had him now with some leverage to get a team friendly deal. And, if Williams isn't willing to take less money, you franchise him until he will. The cost of this trade is the cap savings we make vs the value of the picks we gave up. Obviously, they can't be quantified directly against each other but if we save a whole bunch of cap money than losing the picks might be worth it because then we can spend the savings elsewhere on a proven NFL player as opposed to crapshoot.


That "team friendly deal" is never going to happen, and if you believed it I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Williams doesn't have an idiot for an agent, and the Giants never had any actual leverage because they're the ones who have already made the investment to acquire LW's rights.
RE: RE: RE: So a player about to be a FA wants the Giants to pay him like a FA  
Essex : 12/9/2019 12:18 pm : link
In comment 14708610 rsjem1979 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708591 Essex said:


Quote:


In comment 14708582 sb from NYT Forum said:


Quote:


....so why again didnít Gettleman just wait for him to be a FA?


because he would pay more money in Free Agency than if you had him now with some leverage to get a team friendly deal. And, if Williams isn't willing to take less money, you franchise him until he will. The cost of this trade is the cap savings we make vs the value of the picks we gave up. Obviously, they can't be quantified directly against each other but if we save a whole bunch of cap money than losing the picks might be worth it because then we can spend the savings elsewhere on a proven NFL player as opposed to crapshoot.



That "team friendly deal" is never going to happen, and if you believed it I've got a bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.

Williams doesn't have an idiot for an agent, and the Giants never had any actual leverage because they're the ones who have already made the investment to acquire LW's rights.

Maybe so, but if LW never gets to the market that is a win for us. Second, in the NFL when a career can be over in a flash nobody is going to want to wait a year before the second contract--so I think the Giants have quite a bit of leverage given that the worst case scenario is we pay the franchise tag. I am not saying Gettleman can't--or won't--mess this up, but I see enough here to let it play out before I make that judgment.
put me down on the side of  
fkap : 12/9/2019 12:55 pm : link
"what's with the uproar?"

any sane person should have known this was going to be the case from the start.
any sane person knows players/agents enter the process by expressing a desire to be well compensated.

I don't think DG is such a huge idiot that he didn't know LW was going to want top dollar. I'd be surprised if a dollar range wasn't agreed to before the trade. with that in mind, DG and Co decided before the trade that the picks and contract were going to be worth it. I'm a believer that DG does not act in a vacuum, so Mara has put his stamp of approval on it. Whether we, the fans, think it's worth it is immaterial.

There's nothing new to see here.

Mara is a businessman.  
penkap75 : 12/9/2019 12:56 pm : link
Can he not see what a stupid business move this was by DG?
Its GM malpractice worthy of termination.
There are outs  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 12/9/2019 1:17 pm : link
Franchising him for a year or two might be a good option.
He's wrong  
santacruzom : 12/9/2019 1:19 pm : link
He won't. It's been well established by DG defenders that because we traded for him, we have an advantage in signing him.
A lot of people keep trying to turn this into a referendum on Williams  
Greg from LI : 12/9/2019 1:22 pm : link
as a player, and that's not what the problem is. He's pretty good, although he's not one of the top ten at his position.

As Brett in particular has pointed out repeatedly, it's that the trade represents a poor allocation of resources.
RE: RE: 1 of the most complained about decisions last year was not tagging LC  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14708546 jcn56 said:
Quote:


And that still just skips past the most galling part of all this - that Gettleman TRADED 2 PICKS for the right to tag Williams. That's why people are upset - it's not 'consistent' because it's a completely different situation.


I'm specifically talking about the hyperbolic insistence on not utilizing the tag now, after the trade has already been made. That's basically arguing into the necessity of a long term deal which I think would be a more needless risk than making the deal in the first place.

Had they tagged LC for 2019 they surely would have listened to trade offers for him at the deadline as they did in 2018, same as they can do for LW next year if he's on a 1 year deal. That would give them the opportunity to recoup the picks traded in the first place if he doesn't work out on the field. Making this move in the first place was a gamble but there is a very easy way to mitigate that gamble at the expense of nothing but a little cap room for 1 season.
RE: I was ok with it  
Danny Kanell : 12/9/2019 1:25 pm : link
In comment 14708502 Joey in VA said:
Quote:
Initially but I have done a complete 180 on Gettleman. This trade is horrible he is horrible and we suck more than ever and it's his fault.


This pretty much sums up my thoughts.
Danny, Joey  
fkap : 12/9/2019 1:33 pm : link
what's changed since the trade?
His play is what was expected.
His contract demands are what was expected.

What did you guys expect? that he was going to come in and single handedly change the defense and/or sign for a song?
I think this was a pretty good trade, I don't see why there's outrage  
cosmicj : 12/9/2019 1:34 pm : link
1) Williams wasn't hitting the open market. The Jets were going to trade him to someone for picks and that trade partner was going to sign him or tag him. If you wanted Williams, you had to do the trade.

2) The Giants actually have a lot of negotiating leverage. The franchise tag (better than the transition tag) can be used and will give Williams every incentive to sign a market price deal. In fact, the tag makes it likely that having Williams on the roster for 2019 will help them save some money.

3) The Giants have no players to spend money on, the results of years of drawing failure. And there will be few good players on the market in the spring. With Williams, at least they can spend the money on a good young player who can help the team's depleted talent base instead of Nate Solder Part II.

There's a continual delusion on the part of fans that a cheap vet will fall into our laps during free agency. I guess there are examples of good economical signings out there, but they are few and far between. The trade market has been really important the last few years as a way for teams to get value of players that they won't be extending. Example: Dee Ford was traded last March by the Chiefs to the 49ers after the Chiefs applied a franchise tag.

I'm not a fan of all of Gettleman's moves, but I thought this was a transaction that makes sense.
agree with everything in Cosmic's post with an addition to point 1  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 1:41 pm : link
The 1 year tag @ $17m is far more preferable to me than signing LW for that amount over 4 or 5 years right now (which is what it would have taken to get in him via UFA).

In return for that option year, we had to give up 1 pick this year and 1 the following. But picks can be recouped if decide to not extend him by next year's trade deadline. Or if we tag again next year. This is a safe gamble - unless we overpay needlessly.
Good bye  
KWALL2 : 12/9/2019 1:49 pm : link
Just take the loss and move on. Oh...and fire the idiot who made the trade.
RE: agree with everything in Cosmic's post with an addition to point 1  
pjcas18 : 12/9/2019 1:54 pm : link
In comment 14708734 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
The 1 year tag @ $17m is far more preferable to me than signing LW for that amount over 4 or 5 years right now (which is what it would have taken to get in him via UFA).

In return for that option year, we had to give up 1 pick this year and 1 the following. But picks can be recouped if decide to not extend him by next year's trade deadline. Or if we tag again next year. This is a safe gamble - unless we overpay needlessly.


How does signing Williams to 1 year at $17+M help the Giants and justify a 3rd round pick and a 4th round pick?

How does that make sense to anyone as a good option and cause you to say good trade?
This was a terrible move  
Tim in Eternal Blue : 12/9/2019 1:57 pm : link
by DG. If you defend this move then you are just trolling for the sake of trolling. It was a shitty decision in a long list of shitty decisions.
RE: Zero  
Justlurking : 12/9/2019 2:01 pm : link
In comment 14708530 Les in TO said:
Quote:
Sacks 12 pressures in a contract year lol


and Giants gonna give him 18 million a year!
RE: RE: agree with everything in Cosmic's post with an addition to point 1  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 2:02 pm : link
In comment 14708755 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
I

How does signing Williams to 1 year at $17+M help the Giants and justify a 3rd round pick and a 4th round pick?

How does that make sense to anyone as a good option and cause you to say good trade?


The same way signing players to a 1 year deal (or acquiring players with 1 option year left on their contract) would help any other team in any other sport? By having the player's rights for 1 year.

This isn't a great comparison bc you know I hate the other deal but the reason I hated the other deal is different here (mets not spending $), but this is a lot like the Stroman trade by the Mets. Adding a player for the following season when he is available at the trade deadline in season when you aren't in the playoff race. Adding Stroman for 2020 was fine, the issue I had was the Wilpons wouldn't spend to resign him long term even if he's great and let him walk like Wheeler. And they could have just resigned Wheeler who is a better player. We don't have a better player here and I don't think there would have been a better player available in FA (definitely not on a 1 year deal).
RE: Mara is a businessman.  
Justlurking : 12/9/2019 2:05 pm : link
In comment 14708669 penkap75 said:
Quote:
Can he not see what a stupid business move this was by DG?
Its GM malpractice worthy of termination.


He has bungled the rebuild at every opportunity.
RE: so for a 3-4 defense  
GiantsFan84 : 12/9/2019 2:06 pm : link
In comment 14708327 Justlurking said:
Quote:
assuming he signs -

DG will have used a 1st (Dlaw), a high 3rd (BJ Hill), replaced that high third with another high third PLUS a 4th PLUS paying LW 10% our our cap space. (in addition to the 2017 2nd rounder)

For positions that theyre supposed to eat blockers and make room for the LBs to make tackles.

Any people still dont understand what I mean when I say DG does not understand asset allocation and positional value.

He is the worst general manager in the NFL. He has to go.


^^^THIS^^^

And this entire situation with Williams was 100% predictable to anyone with a brain.

And those of you saying mid round picks don't matter have no clue what you are talking about.

There is no defending this. There never was a valid reason to do it. It alone is a fireable offense.
And he decided to hide like a coward after his fuck up  
GiantsFan84 : 12/9/2019 2:07 pm : link
and put a BS fluff piece out on Giants.com. DG needs to GTFO.
This can turn out to be very embarrassing  
5BowlsSoon : 12/9/2019 2:08 pm : link
How do you make a trade not knowing he is returning to your team?
RE: RE: RE: agree with everything in Cosmic's post with an addition to point 1  
pjcas18 : 12/9/2019 2:16 pm : link
In comment 14708776 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14708755 pjcas18 said:


Quote:


I

How does signing Williams to 1 year at $17+M help the Giants and justify a 3rd round pick and a 4th round pick?

How does that make sense to anyone as a good option and cause you to say good trade?



The same way signing players to a 1 year deal (or acquiring players with 1 option year left on their contract) would help any other team in any other sport? By having the player's rights for 1 year.

This isn't a great comparison bc you know I hate the other deal but the reason I hated the other deal is different here (mets not spending $), but this is a lot like the Stroman trade by the Mets. Adding a player for the following season when he is available at the trade deadline in season when you aren't in the playoff race. Adding Stroman for 2020 was fine, the issue I had was the Wilpons wouldn't spend to resign him long term even if he's great and let him walk like Wheeler. And they could have just resigned Wheeler who is a better player. We don't have a better player here and I don't think there would have been a better player available in FA (definitely not on a 1 year deal).


Bad comparison because the NFL has a salary cap and you can front load contracts differently so when you do have space you can control to an extent when you realize the cap hit, making future years less risky (for example).

You (or someone) even said franchise him for a couple years.

It's a terrible use of resources. That would be $37M guaranteed dollars over 2 years.

Most likely that would be close to the total guarantees on a 5 year deal (or close).

RE: I think this was a pretty good trade, I don't see why there's outrage  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2019 2:25 pm : link
In comment 14708726 cosmicj said:
Quote:
1) Williams wasn't hitting the open market. The Jets were going to trade him to someone for picks and that trade partner was going to sign him or tag him. If you wanted Williams, you had to do the trade.

I don't know how you can say that with absolute certainty. Let's say Dallas was the team that traded for him. Are they using their FT on Williams with Prescott and Cooper about to become FAs? I think it's very possible that a team other than the Giants could have traded for Williams as a rental for this season, with the hopes that they might re-sign him, but with no intent or realistic ability to tag him.

Let's say that the cost in trade would have to start with a 3rd round pick, since that's the presumed comp pick that the Jets could project (even though they're also unlikely to get comp picks next year due to their available cap space), or that the team receiving Williams could project to receive. In that case, the trade negotiations start with a 3rd rounder, although the comp pick you're trying to beat is a 2021 late 3rd rounder, not a 2020 early 3rd. So if you're Gettleman, you're already well ahead of the comp pick calculus giving up your 2020 early 3rd round pick. I'm not sure you need to go any further than that, even if you're completely locked onto the need to trade for him in the first place.

I still think Williams is a good player, but not the type of player that you sacrifice draft picks for solely to get the inside track for him as a FA. He's good enough to be one of your primary FA targets. Or he's good enough to trade for if he has multiple years left on his contract. But he's not good enough, IMO, to trade multiple picks just for the right to be the team with the tag in your pocket.

All that said, I'll even throw a bone to those that feel like the trade itself is defensible - I'd feel significantly better if the terms of the trade were reversed - if the 2020 pick was the 4th/5th with the re-signing condition attached to it and the 3rd round pick was for 2021. At least then the Giants would have an additional season to improve their record and hope to lower that pick's value, and it's still fair to the Jets since 2021 is when any comp pick for LW would occur. That would also mean that if the Giants do use the tag and then lose LW in 2021, they'd be better positioned to get a comp pick in 2022 which would only be one year removed from the 3rd round pick that they traded, instead of two years removed.

Those are all little details that probably feel like nitpicking to many fans, but I think those are the little nuances that our front office has been ignoring for too long. And do I know for sure that Gettleman ignored those details or didn't try to flip the terms of the trade in the way that I suggest? Of course not - this is definitely coming from a cynical view of this front office. But in the context of none of us knowing how the negotiations went, if you had a gun to your head, are you confident in saying that Gettleman definitely worked through every iterative computation?
RE: I think this was a pretty good trade, I don't see why there's outrage  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 2:29 pm : link
In comment 14708726 cosmicj said:
Quote:


2) The Giants actually have a lot of negotiating leverage. The franchise tag (better than the transition tag) can be used and will give Williams every incentive to sign a market price deal. In fact, the tag makes it likely that having Williams on the roster for 2019 will help them save some money.


For a minimum of $17M/yr, which is what the franchise tag will cost, what extra value does LW bring that we really need?

What force multiplier impact does he bring at that cost?
RE: RE: I think this was a pretty good trade, I don't see why there's outrage  
BillKo : 12/9/2019 2:38 pm : link
In comment 14708828 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14708726 cosmicj said:


Quote:




2) The Giants actually have a lot of negotiating leverage. The franchise tag (better than the transition tag) can be used and will give Williams every incentive to sign a market price deal. In fact, the tag makes it likely that having Williams on the roster for 2019 will help them save some money.




For a minimum of $17M/yr, which is what the franchise tag will cost, what extra value does LW bring that we really need?

What force multiplier impact does he bring at that cost?


Well, he's a big body that you'd be pairing up with possibly our current linemen and also the kid from Ohio State.........that could be imposing from a run and pass defense standpoint.

I think DG made the trade with the idea they would sign him, but also have a period of negotiating w/ him exclusively.

The narrative that you let him go to FA from the Jets and simply sign him doesn't hold true.........there's no guarantee.

In fact there's no guarantee either way but you might slightly improve your chances once you get him in the locker room, culture, etc....but of course that's sorta be thrown out the window too given our nose dive........

RE: RE: RE: RE: agree with everything in Cosmic's post with an addition to point 1  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 2:42 pm : link
In comment 14708808 pjcas18 said:
Quote:

Bad comparison because the NFL has a salary cap and you can front load contracts differently so when you do have space you can control to an extent when you realize the cap hit, making future years less risky (for example).

You (or someone) even said franchise him for a couple years.

It's a terrible use of resources. That would be $37M guaranteed dollars over 2 years.

Most likely that would be close to the total guarantees on a 5 year deal (or close).


The ability to manipulate cap hit in a long term deal is not lost on me but I disagree with the bolded statement for 2 reasons:

1- this year in particular we have more cap room than we can spend - so tagging LW this year is pretty painless. The 1 year/17m will be a smaller contract than every other comparable UFA that hits the market and they will still have $50m+ to spend on others (of which I doubt there will be many appealing options). And that's because...

2- ...unlike baseball, Rendon/Cole/Harper/Machado types do not hit FA. And the few prime aged tier 2 guys who get there (like Zack Wheeler) get paid what the Rendon/Cole types do because the competition is so fierce. That's how Solder and Vernon and Trent Brown and Trey Flowers end up with record setting contracts even though they are not nearly record setting players. So spending big via FA is sometimes necessary (as it probably was with Solder) but also an extremely risky use of significant resources that can set you back farther than any 1 year deal can. Cap space is generally better to use to lock down your own core on their 2nd year contracts as early as possible to get favorable terms, of which hopefully LW can prove he's worthy of becoming part of next year.

So if the cap room is there (as it is this year, and may be next year) I have no problem fully guaranteeing a 1 year deal at an inflated AAV in return for not having the future liability of dead cap space and lack of maneuverability. For LW it is a 'rent to own' and if we don't want to own we can trade him away or let him walk in 2021 (possibly for a comp pick).
RE: RE: RE: I think this was a pretty good trade, I don't see why there's outrage  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2019 3:09 pm : link
In comment 14708850 BillKo said:
Quote:
The narrative that you let him go to FA from the Jets and simply sign him doesn't hold true.........there's no guarantee.

I think this is the crux of the argument. Those who criticize the deal are well aware that there's no guarantee that he makes it to FA. And given his career production to date, they're ok with taking that chance.

For me personally, I'd have rolled the dice that he'd make to FA and then pursue him aggressively as one of the main UFA targets. And if he didn't make it to FA, so be it. It would mean that someone else made the inefficient move to sacrifice draft picks for the exclusive negotiating window with a player that is good but not great.

It's not just about each move improving the roster in a vacuum. It's about construction of the roster and the overall state of the rebuild. Those draft picks are important, whether they're used to choose players or to trade for other players who are under contract, or to trade up/down in the draft. And I like LW as a player, but not enough to want him at the exclusion of the added benefit of having those picks to do more for the rebuild in addition to LW.

It's become increasingly clear that the only thing the trade bought us was the opportunity to be the team who can tag LW. And IMO, he's not even good enough to be a tag candidate, so what it really comes down to was making one inefficient move (trading picks) solely for the right to make another (tagging LW).
he should keep his mouth shut  
bc4life : 12/9/2019 3:12 pm : link
he's not taking over games. he knows Giants GM stuck his neck out on this one. if he decides to go elsewhere fine - but why bring this shit up before season's end and the day of the 9th loss in a row?
who could have seen this coming  
jintz4life : 12/9/2019 3:16 pm : link
but please keep saying gettleman knows what hes doing

he's a buffoon
Have you guys not paid attention to guys who have gotten  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 3:26 pm : link
Franchise tagged?

So letís say you franchise tag Williams, and he still wants to get his long term deal at $18 million per.

Heís either going to hold out or play under the tag and the Giants will have to either tag him at more money or again hand him a long term contract. Whereís the benefit for the Giants?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: agree with everything in Cosmic's post with an addition to point 1  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2019 3:31 pm : link
In comment 14708856 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
So if the cap room is there (as it is this year, and may be next year) I have no problem fully guaranteeing a 1 year deal at an inflated AAV in return for not having the future liability of dead cap space and lack of maneuverability. For LW it is a 'rent to own' and if we don't want to own we can trade him away or let him walk in 2021 (possibly for a comp pick).

It's important to remember that unused cap space carries over. So issuing excessive short term guaranteed dollars to avoid future dead money isn't really more efficient - you're just guaranteeing that you're going to burn that money this year instead of hoping that you don't have to burn it as dead money in the future.

And worse yet, by tagging a player that you might ultimately want to keep beyond that one year, you're overspending for one year and then following it up with the same dead money risk that you're trying to avoid in the first place, but now doing it with a player that's another year older than he was before.

If aversion to future dead money and a desire to preserve cap maneuverability for the future is your goal, your approach should be to avoid bad contracts at all, regardless of whether they're for one year or for five. Wasting money just because you have it is still wasting money, and you're effectively still wasting future cap space if you overpay a player on a one-year deal.
A lot of parallels to the Knicks  
widmerseyebrow : 12/9/2019 3:32 pm : link
When your hopelessness is projecting beyond the next year then you know it's bad.
I just dont understand the argument here  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/9/2019 3:38 pm : link
You don't pay top of the market, top of the position pay scale for guys who aren't proven pass rushers.

Fools pay 17 million a year for run defenders. And I don't want to hear "he gets a lot of pressures".
This is going to end up worse than the Vernon signing  
Default : 12/9/2019 3:44 pm : link
and that didn't cost the team 2 draft picks...
RE: I just dont understand the argument here  
Essex : 12/9/2019 3:44 pm : link
In comment 14708975 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
You don't pay top of the market, top of the position pay scale for guys who aren't proven pass rushers.

Fools pay 17 million a year for run defenders. And I don't want to hear "he gets a lot of pressures".

Brandon Graham has never gotten ten sacks in his entire NFL career and all I hear is that he is one of the most valuable edge rushers because of his pressures. So, what is it? I understand a sack finishes it off, but is there no value in forcing the qb to throw it quickly?
RE: RE: I just dont understand the argument here  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2019 3:47 pm : link
In comment 14708986 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 14708975 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


You don't pay top of the market, top of the position pay scale for guys who aren't proven pass rushers.

Fools pay 17 million a year for run defenders. And I don't want to hear "he gets a lot of pressures".


Brandon Graham has never gotten ten sacks in his entire NFL career and all I hear is that he is one of the most valuable edge rushers because of his pressures. So, what is it? I understand a sack finishes it off, but is there no value in forcing the qb to throw it quickly?

If the Giants get LW to sign the same exact contract as Graham (3 yrs/$40M), I'll gladly commend DG for his strategy on this one.

I don't see it playing out like that, though. I think we end up paying full price, which will be closer to double that in total contract value, and give up picks on top of it.
We all know how this is going to play out. Gettleman will overpay to  
Jim in Hoboken : 12/9/2019 3:51 pm : link
sign him. At the press conference Williams will say he appreciates the Giants trading for him, neglecting to mention that the Giants offered the most money.

In three years, he will be traded for a 5th round pick by the next GM.

The few who are actually defending Gettleman are just trying to rationalizing something this supposedly professional GM did. Itís one thing to do that at the time of the trade, itís another to do it now, weíve lost four straight games with him and the team looks as bad as ever. I can understand if a contender traded for him for a playoff push. But we were/are fucking tanking for all intents and purposes?!?! This is as idiotic as it gets!! Iíd feel better if Gettleman just comes out and says he was trying to save his job by mortgaging the future, which is probably the truth.

Letís blame everything on Reese even though 80% of the roster is his making. Gettleman needs to go.
Gatorade Drunk - the average team carried over $11m next year  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 3:52 pm : link
Even with tagging LW, I think it's possible to exceed that amount of carry over AND still find some guys who can help from FA (ideally with more efficiency than the previous 2 years). I posted some cap math somewhere earlier but here it is again.

Current Proj. = $60m
Proj. vet cuts = +$20m ($80m total space)
Proj. draft pool = $13m ($67m space)
LW Tag = $17m ($50m space)

Below is a list of the top 50 free agents and frankly i's hard to pin point where they will be able to spend $40m. Among BBI's favorite FA targets:

Shaq Thompson - resigned
Ngakwe, Scherff, Barrett - likely to be tagged or resigned
Justin Simmons - Fangio indicated yesterday he's getting resigned long term

The best players I can envision being realistic as multi-year targets are probably Joe Schubert, James Bradberry, and Jack Conklin. And I personally don't have any interest in being the team to overpay Matt Judon, Kyle Van Noy, or Bud Dupree. Hunter Henry would be a great target too but I suspect he will get tagged by SD.
Top 50 2020 free agents - ( New Window )
BBI's fantasy of all these players hitting FA is ridiculous  
Zeke's Alibi : 12/9/2019 4:01 pm : link
with the increase of the cap. 3/4's of the league has money to resign their guys. The only guys of value that hit FA are players that play on teams that are in cap trouble. Guys that were any good or worth the contracts they are given at the top end are rarely worth it unless they shake free because of cap issues. Yannick fits that bill, but apparently they are going to resign him.
RE: Gatorade Drunk - the average team carried over $11m next year  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/9/2019 4:02 pm : link
In comment 14709006 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
Even with tagging LW, I think it's possible to exceed that amount of carry over AND still find some guys who can help from FA (ideally with more efficiency than the previous 2 years). I posted some cap math somewhere earlier but here it is again.

Current Proj. = $60m
Proj. vet cuts = +$20m ($80m total space)
Proj. draft pool = $13m ($67m space)
LW Tag = $17m ($50m space)

Below is a list of the top 50 free agents and frankly i's hard to pin point where they will be able to spend $40m. Among BBI's favorite FA targets:

Shaq Thompson - resigned
Ngakwe, Scherff, Barrett - likely to be tagged or resigned
Justin Simmons - Fangio indicated yesterday he's getting resigned long term

The best players I can envision being realistic as multi-year targets are probably Joe Schubert, James Bradberry, and Jack Conklin. And I personally don't have any interest in being the team to overpay Matt Judon, Kyle Van Noy, or Bud Dupree. Hunter Henry would be a great target too but I suspect he will get tagged by SD. Top 50 2020 free agents - ( New Window )

I'm not sure what your point is. Because there are fewer impact free agents available, the Giants should overpay for one of them simply because they traded for him? Or is it that because the league average in cap carryover is a certain amount, that should be some sort of guiding light for how an efficient team should operate?

The Giants don't have a lot of players on their own roster worth extending right now (especially among those that are eligible for an extension), but they can absolutely stockpile their cap room for when they do have players worth extending and have a huge war chest at their disposal to add reinforcements for a roster that will be a lot closer to being a contender. That doesn't mean don't spend, but they don't have to be swimming in the Top 50 pool if they want to be assembling depth and balance for their roster. Especially if they're going to piss away mid-round picks that usually represent that depth and balance.

I stand by my reasoning that paying more up front to avoid dead money later is just paying cash for your cap inefficiencies instead of using your credit card. Just because it doesn't show up on the ledger later on as dead money doesn't mean you didn't waste some money along the way.

Also, it's DUNK. No R.
RE: Have you guys not paid attention to guys who have gotten  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 4:06 pm : link
In comment 14708952 ajr2456 said:
Quote:
Franchise tagged?

So letís say you franchise tag Williams, and he still wants to get his long term deal at $18 million per.

Heís either going to hold out or play under the tag and the Giants will have to either tag him at more money or again hand him a long term contract. Whereís the benefit for the Giants?


The benefit to the Giants next year is if Williams helps them win games. Period. That is the immediate return on the $17m franchise tag investment. So if he holds out the trade was a disaster, though I doubt that happens since it rarely does outside the RB position. Next year is year 3 of a near complete roster turnover. Just because it will likely be a new head coach, the expectations should be in accordance with year 3 of any multi-year rebuild and year 2 of any potential franchise QB.

If they get to week 7 and the team is still a doormat they should trade him the same way the Jets did this year. The move will have been a failure to a certain degree depending on what kind of compensation they receive it could be close to zero sum. If that's the worst case scenario I don't think that's so bad given there's a best case that he's a very good DL.
RE: We all know how this is going to play out. Gettleman will overpay to  
FStubbs : 12/9/2019 5:21 pm : link
In comment 14709003 Jim in Hoboken said:
Quote:
sign him. At the press conference Williams will say he appreciates the Giants trading for him, neglecting to mention that the Giants offered the most money.

In three years, he will be traded for a 5th round pick by the next GM.

The few who are actually defending Gettleman are just trying to rationalizing something this supposedly professional GM did. Itís one thing to do that at the time of the trade, itís another to do it now, weíve lost four straight games with him and the team looks as bad as ever. I can understand if a contender traded for him for a playoff push. But we were/are fucking tanking for all intents and purposes?!?! This is as idiotic as it gets!! Iíd feel better if Gettleman just comes out and says he was trying to save his job by mortgaging the future, which is probably the truth.

Letís blame everything on Reese even though 80% of the roster is his making. Gettleman needs to go.


Yeah, the Gettleman is good Reese is bad narrative should die now. This was a stupid trade, and I don't understand why we made it.

But don't compound it by overpaying Williams. Have a dollar amount, if he wants too much, you let him hit the market.
RE: RE: RE: I think this was a pretty good trade, I don't see why there's outrage  
bw in dc : 12/9/2019 5:49 pm : link
In comment 14708850 BillKo said:
Quote:

Well, he's a big body that you'd be pairing up with possibly our current linemen and also the kid from Ohio State.........that could be imposing from a run and pass defense standpoint.

I think DG made the trade with the idea they would sign him, but also have a period of negotiating w/ him exclusively.

The narrative that you let him go to FA from the Jets and simply sign him doesn't hold true.........there's no guarantee.

In fact there's no guarantee either way but you might slightly improve your chances once you get him in the locker room, culture, etc....but of course that's sorta be thrown out the window too given our nose dive........


Before LW arrived, after 8 games we had a total of 21 sacks. An average of 2.6 sacks per game.

Since LW arrived, we've played 4 games and totaled 4 sacks. An average of 1 per game.

Before LW arrived, our points allowed per game was 27+.

Since LW arrived, our points allowed per game is 30+.

I know it's a small sample, and there are other levers involved in this, but on just basic stats I think LW's addition to the same is negligible...

Does that feel like a good $18M/yr investment?
RE: RE: Gatorade Drunk - the average team carried over $11m next year  
Eric on Li : 12/9/2019 6:12 pm : link
In comment 14709032 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:


Also, it's DUNK. No R.


I've been misreading your handle for months and now you tell me? Don't know if I've done that before but if so my b.

Re: the rest - the main point was that as is almost always the case with teams who have a lot of cap room, there aren't enough good players who reach FA in the NFL to use it all effectively. This year appears to be no exception.

I agree that we need to be prudent with reserving future cap space to resign our own drafted players worthy of 2nd contracts, but that's why to me it makes a lot more sense to have LW on a 1 year deal than a large 4 or 5 year deal. At least until we know for sure that he is (or isn't) a core player. I don't like having to give up a 3rd round pick to do it, but they can get that pick back if they don't sign him long term either next deadline or via comp pick or via tag & trade next year.
RE: RE: I just dont understand the argument here  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/9/2019 6:25 pm : link
In comment 14708986 Essex said:
Quote:
In comment 14708975 Ten Ton Hammer said:


Quote:


You don't pay top of the market, top of the position pay scale for guys who aren't proven pass rushers.

Fools pay 17 million a year for run defenders. And I don't want to hear "he gets a lot of pressures".


Brandon Graham has never gotten ten sacks in his entire NFL career and all I hear is that he is one of the most valuable edge rushers because of his pressures. So, what is it? I understand a sack finishes it off, but is there no value in forcing the qb to throw it quickly?


Is there? Olivier Vernon is Mr. QB Pressure, and we couldn't wait to run him out of town and lament how ineffective he is considering his contract. Pay the most money to guys who make plays. Let your younger, cheaper players worry about making the QB throw quickly.

Williams is a better run defender by some measure, but this league doesn't pay run defenders, because pass rush is a premium resource. You can find run pluggers. Good teams do.
RE: This can turn out to be very embarrassing  
santacruzom : 12/9/2019 6:33 pm : link
In comment 14708795 5BowlsSoon said:
Quote:
How do you make a trade not knowing he is returning to your team?


If you're David Gettleman, you do it happily, that's how.
RE: RE: Have you guys not paid attention to guys who have gotten  
ajr2456 : 12/9/2019 6:38 pm : link
In comment 14709039 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
In comment 14708952 ajr2456 said:


Quote:


Franchise tagged?

So letís say you franchise tag Williams, and he still wants to get his long term deal at $18 million per.

Heís either going to hold out or play under the tag and the Giants will have to either tag him at more money or again hand him a long term contract. Whereís the benefit for the Giants?



The benefit to the Giants next year is if Williams helps them win games. Period. That is the immediate return on the $17m franchise tag investment. So if he holds out the trade was a disaster, though I doubt that happens since it rarely does outside the RB position. Next year is year 3 of a near complete roster turnover. Just because it will likely be a new head coach, the expectations should be in accordance with year 3 of any multi-year rebuild and year 2 of any potential franchise QB.

If they get to week 7 and the team is still a doormat they should trade him the same way the Jets did this year. The move will have been a failure to a certain degree depending on what kind of compensation they receive it could be close to zero sum. If that's the worst case scenario I don't think that's so bad given there's a best case that he's a very good DL.


What? Leonard Williams has yet to show in 5 years he impacts games enough to win games.

If you tag Williams and trade him the move wonít be seen as a failure to a degree, it will be an abject disaster. Trading will net less than a top 60 pick, so they would have essentially traded a top 60 pick for a lesser pick and wasted $17 million.
Gentleman has certainly made some mistake but this one  
LauderdaleMatty : 12/9/2019 8:41 pm : link
Was just fucking stupid. Guy is a a NFL starter but heís closer to a jag than star. Bye. The draft picks are capital and DG just fucked up. And it was an utter needless trade.

I didnít think he should be fired earlier but clean house w him and this staff ASAP please
Let him walk  
LT56GOAT : 12/11/2019 1:52 pm : link
Make a standard shorterm offer or let him walk. No premium offer. This is how he plays auditioning for big contract imagine the effort once he is paid. he is a servicable DL not a star and has proven that. I bet he will take a standard contract to stay in NY.
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