No big surprise, of course. The "I'm sick of losing" angle seems like a real thing with hin. It's been beaten to death around here, but the thought of Gettleman renting him for part of a year when we are in rebuilding/non-contending mode and badly needed the picks he traded away is infuriating.
Now Leonard Williams is talking - (
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me that even one person on here defends this trade on any level. Yet here we are with many people defending it.
our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.
please name one other team that has traded picks away for a free agent at 2-6. I'll wait.
Good teams dont make idiotic moves like this. If you like him, sign him as a FA.
a) it would have to be at least 120% of his current 2019 salary ($14.2M), so basically same as the Franchise Tag.
b) if he does sign an offer elsewhere and the Giants don't match, he walks and they get nothing.
The Giants would be better off non-exclusive franchise tag, signing him long term or letting him walk.
All better options than transition tag which would be the worst option.
and some continue to try to do so, maybe squint at it, hold one eye shut.
just terrible
Ogletree, Kareem Martin, Beathea, and Ellison = another $20m saved which brings the number around $80m (with the possibility to go further if they trade Jenkins, but that's uncertain so lets keep him).
Now let's tag LW at $17m to bring the cap room to $63m.
And add in the rookie pool that's projected at $13m which brings us down to $50m.
Which other big money, multi-year, ($10m+ AAV) players are you looking to some of that $50m on? And not looking for exact contracts or anything, just who you like and think may be available and not resigned by their existing team like Shaq Thompson or tagged like Ngakwe is widely expected to be.
Question is if Williams is 1) worth the Jarret market rate he will command in UFA 2) is he worth a 17.2M hit to the Giants spending power this year, and the uncertainty it puts on resources 3) is he worth the potential of a pissing match if he's franchised and not happy about it.
My POV is consistent this isn't the type of player to go in circles over. Consternation should be reserved for better players.
They wouldn't have traded him without the intent to resign him, so I'm looking forward to the defensive line next year, especially if we add Chase
and some continue to try to do so, maybe squint at it, hold one eye shut.
just terrible
Yup. I generally lean to the optimistic, wait and see side, but I just can’t think of one good reason a team stuck in the mud and going nowhere should surrender multiple draft picks for a guy who could reasonably be a solid starter, but doesn’t seem to remotely be a pro-Bowl caliber building block.
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In comment 14708329 MookGiants said:
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me that even one person on here defends this trade on any level. Yet here we are with many people defending it.
our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.
please name one other team that has traded picks away for a free agent at 2-6. I'll wait.
Good teams dont make idiotic moves like this. If you like him, sign him as a FA.
so what you are basically saying is that you would rather get into a bidding war versus another team but retain the 3rd and 5th round picks. Maybe so, but I definitely think there is a price tag that I would pay to save cap space and give up a 3rd and a 5. I have no idea what that is at this point, but cap space is also an asset. In addition, we won't be able to evaluate this until the ink is dry on the contract.
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In comment 14708290 Tesla said:
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in the class of DL just below Aaron Donald. Those guys make around $18M/year.....so it's pretty obvious he'll be looking for at least that much...which is precisely what many of the smarter posters here predicted as soon as the trade was made.
No. He thinks he’s as good as Grady Jarrett, who signed this summer for $17M/yr.
And their stats are eerily similar.
Grady Jarrett 2020: 5.5 sacks. Leonard Williams 2020: 0 sacks
Look at their career stats over 5 years.
Jarrett: 19.5 sacks/238 tackles/128 solos/5 FF / 0 PDs
LW: 17 sacks/250 tackles/125 solos/3 FFs/4 PDs
So Jackson signed his contract for $17M BEFORE his 5.5 sacks THIS YEAR.
That sounds pretty damn good to me.
Not with Bettcher running the D
Giants will pay him his market value. Did Eli give a home discount? Strahan? Snee?
The important thing what ever he is paid...he earns it imo.
That sounds pretty damn good to me.
If they draft Chase Young and are staying in a 3-4 playing him with his hand in the dirt would be a waste.
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to get behind this trade.
and some continue to try to do so, maybe squint at it, hold one eye shut.
just terrible
Yup. I generally lean to the optimistic, wait and see side, but I just can’t think of one good reason a team stuck in the mud and going nowhere should surrender multiple draft picks for a guy who could reasonably be a solid starter, but doesn’t seem to remotely be a pro-Bowl caliber building block.
its very simple... if they wanted him, they could sign him in the off-season, or at least see how the season, offseason evolves and make a decision. instead they traded draft capital (a top 70 pick) for the right to have a stubborn GM pay up for the guy because you know he wont want egg on his face for not resigning him.
nice
Yes, absolutely an under discussed aspect of this trade. What would be the attraction of the Giants for LW? Poor record, shaky GM situation, high taxes and cost of living, not a very clear future at all. If anything should concern people it’s that LW wants to be on a winning team. That ain’t the Giants. Not this year and not next year either.
Dumbest trade ever.
Giants will pay him his market value. Did Eli give a home discount? Strahan? Snee?
The important thing what ever he is paid...he earns it imo.
And he hasn't earned what he'll likely get on the open market because of the abundance of cap space.
This spring will be similar to the 2016 NBA Offseason. Tons of teams with cap space, not enough elite talent to go around so marginal players will get top end money.
Any more than 15 a year and this is a horrific trade.
If the Patriots or Chiefs offer him 15M per and he comes to the Giants say I need $18M a year to stay because you fucking suck, what does Gettleman do? You lose either way, overpay or lose picks for nothing!!!
To those that say he’s a good player, has he made a difference this year and is he worth an overpay to retain? Any of you think he’d take a hometown discount because he’s here? After seeing how this team is run?
Browsing some additional indicating stats, LW seems to crush GJ in QB hits (97 for his career 53) though GJ has more TFL (40 vs. 33).
our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.
I believe you left the Cowboys game out of your statistic.
I'd add that the Bears and Jets are two of the worst rushing offenses in the league (3.5 and 3.3 YPC, respectively) and both had huge days in the passing game against the Giants.
And every time the Packers went play-action they hit a big play downfield in the passing game.
Even if Williams has had a positive impact on the run defense, so what? The Giants were 2-6 when they made the trade, giving up draft assets to acquire a pending UFA. That's a preposterous move for a team with as many holes as the Giants.
Now people are going to talk themselves into tagging Williams for 2020. How does that help the Giants going forward?
That sounds pretty damn good to me.
it certainly does. I like Young, Williams, Lawrence AND my 3rd round pick this year and my 4th round pick next year even better though. And that's the point.
would have been better to go after him in the offseason. even if we had then overpaid we wouldn't be giving up draft picks. it would have made overpaying a little less painful.
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and all the sudden we're looking at a line that involves Young, Williams, and Lawrence.
That sounds pretty damn good to me.
it certainly does. I like Young, Williams, Lawrence AND my 3rd round pick this year and my 4th round pick next year even better though. And that's the point.
Young has played in a 4-3.
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our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.
I believe you left the Cowboys game out of your statistic.
I'd add that the Bears and Jets are two of the worst rushing offenses in the league (3.5 and 3.3 YPC, respectively) and both had huge days in the passing game against the Giants.
And every time the Packers went play-action they hit a big play downfield in the passing game.
Even if Williams has had a positive impact on the run defense, so what? The Giants were 2-6 when they made the trade, giving up draft assets to acquire a pending UFA. That's a preposterous move for a team with as many holes as the Giants.
Now people are going to talk themselves into tagging Williams for 2020. How does that help the Giants going forward?
Lets also not leave out that the Jets run defense has stayed the same/improved since he got traded.
Yes, absolutely an under discussed aspect of this trade. What would be the attraction of the Giants for LW? Poor record, shaky GM situation, high taxes and cost of living, not a very clear future at all. If anything should concern people it’s that LW wants to be on a winning team. That ain’t the Giants. Not this year and not next year either.
Dumbest trade ever.
The trade is galacticlly stupid on various levels. Here are five:
1. We should have been sellers, not buyers at 2-6.
2. We actually have a nice supply of DTs currently on the team. And at reasonable salaries.
3. LW is a solid player, but not great. And we already have those players.
4. We have away a 3rd and 5th draft picks for: see #2 and #3.
5. LW's salary demands, as expected, are going to be high. We could use that money for much bigger needs.
Gettleman is an absolute imbecile for making this move.
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in the class of DL just below Aaron Donald. Those guys make around $18M/year.....so it's pretty obvious he'll be looking for at least that much...which is precisely what many of the smarter posters here predicted as soon as the trade was made.
Which is why franchising him for 15 million is a decent move for us, and not a world is ending move as some are describing it.
First of all, you're locked onto him getting the DT tag, which seems unlikely regardless of which player he referenced - the NFL determined he was a DE a year ago for the purposes of his 5th year option. And even if they change course and consider him a DT this time around, his 2019 salary will still be a basis number for his 2020 tag, so he'll get more than the standard DT franchise tag salary.
Either way, it's starting to shape up in such a fashion that the only thing our draft picks bought us was the ability to tag Williams. And I don't think it's nearly the sure thing benefit that you're making it out to be.
If he was our own player for the past 5 years and everything else was equal, would we legitimately be considering tagging him? Or are you chasing the sunk cost of the draft picks by tagging him so that acquiring him in the first place had any value at all in a lost season?
I think it's the latter, but am interested in your view on it.
Yup, totally agree.
i have defended Gettleman but I think that this trade might be it for me
We'd be stuck with him for another year. And probably set back even further.
You're entering 'hopeful' territory at that salary, as in 'the Giants are hopeful that in a different system with more talent around him he'll be better than he has been to date'.
Does that sound like 'pay me as the best DT on the market' play to you?
And even if it does - does it sound like something that it should have cost picks to sign him for?
It was a bad move - it's indefensible. Paying him top dollar by itself would be curious, but you could say 'wait to see if he earns it'. Here, they traded picks for the right to overpay him.
Go look at past superbowl participants. Some were great at stopping the run, some were mediocre, a few were even bad (2016 ATL Falcons). Most (if not all) superbowl teams great at stopping the run were also great at stopping the pass.
How about we try to build a great defense at all three levels instead of overstuffing the roster with DTs to occupy space for playmaking linebackers that don't exist.
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In comment 14708352 hitdog42 said:
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to get behind this trade.
and some continue to try to do so, maybe squint at it, hold one eye shut.
just terrible
Yup. I generally lean to the optimistic, wait and see side, but I just can’t think of one good reason a team stuck in the mud and going nowhere should surrender multiple draft picks for a guy who could reasonably be a solid starter, but doesn’t seem to remotely be a pro-Bowl caliber building block.
its very simple... if they wanted him, they could sign him in the off-season, or at least see how the season, offseason evolves and make a decision. instead they traded draft capital (a top 70 pick) for the right to have a stubborn GM pay up for the guy because you know he wont want egg on his face for not resigning him.
nice
The obvious footnote being, since we’re cruising to another top 3 pick, the picks we gave up will be at the top of their respective rounds
Fook
You are basically saying I made a couple mistakes with
my own draft picks on the defensive front...
Stupid then, stupid now.
I absolutely wanted to keep DG until this trade. He should be, by no means, in charge of a franchise after that trade. Williams has legit sucked for 2 years and he get's Dolan'd by the Jets.
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In comment 14708338 Essex said:
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In comment 14708329 MookGiants said:
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me that even one person on here defends this trade on any level. Yet here we are with many people defending it.
our defense ypc average is 2.7 since he is been there, it amazes me how people do not see this guy's absolute worth in transforming our defensive line. In fact, while our Lbs and Secondary have been dreadful, the one good thing we have done recently is stop the run (a prereq to winning in this league). Rome was not built in a day and you have to start somewhere, this was a good opportunity to upgrade by giving away a 3rd and a 5th (crapshoots that rarely work out) vs a legitimate run stuffer in this league. So, if we wanted to pay him in the off season, giving a 3 and 5 was certainly worth it considering that we now have various options to retain his services. If we do not somehow keep him, then you can criticize this, but from a football perspective this was not a stupid move (it is yet to be determined whether it was a good one though). I am critical of Gettleman in many areas, but the criticism of this trade to me is simply mind-boggling or at least the criticsm of it at this time.
please name one other team that has traded picks away for a free agent at 2-6. I'll wait.
Good teams dont make idiotic moves like this. If you like him, sign him as a FA.
so what you are basically saying is that you would rather get into a bidding war versus another team but retain the 3rd and 5th round picks. Maybe so, but I definitely think there is a price tag that I would pay to save cap space and give up a 3rd and a 5. I have no idea what that is at this point, but cap space is also an asset. In addition, we won't be able to evaluate this until the ink is dry on the contract.
The only way LW doesn't go FA is if the giants OVERPAY for him, nobody gives the home team discount when FA $ is coming!
I was too, I thought we were making moves we needed to make but we're still the same...maybe worse. I don't know if it's his fault or Bettcher's but 3rd and long is a given anymore. We stop very few teams when we have to.
DG will be on his way at some point, by retirement or otherwise, but Giants will still have the man in charge of football operations who thought "Hey, yeah, that sounds like a good idea."
Browsing some additional indicating stats, LW seems to crush GJ in QB hits (97 for his career 53) though GJ has more TFL (40 vs. 33).
You are presupposing that I think Jarrett was a good, smart signing by Atlanta. I'm merely using him, based on his stats, as the benchmark for LW's contract demands.
Like I said, I actually think we have a nice young blend of DTs on reasonable contracts. And players who look to be as good as LW. So essentially we added a clone.
An enormously expensive clone.
Giants only recourse is the FT, which would make a bad trade worse.
Can't he be transition tagged? He is not worth the FT....
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has all the leverage.
Giants only recourse is the FT, which would make a bad trade worse.
Can't he be transition tagged? He is not worth the FT....
Same $$$.
Both tags need to be "at least" 20% more than his prior year salary.
You mean two-time Super Bowl MVP Eli? You mean Hall of Famer Strahan? You mean four-time Pro Bowler Chris Snee?
You include Leonard Williams in that group because...?
I personally would have had no problem tagging LC last year at the expense of some of the FA moves they made (or if they had to cut some others like Jenkins to make room).
The differences between the decisions make me think it's even more of a no-brainer for LW though, starting with the facts that 1) they have more room to afford it, 2) he's only played half a season here, and 3) they may not be able to get a good comp pick out of it like they presumably will for LC.