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Don't tell me coaching doesn't matter...

Thatís Gold, Jerry : 12/9/2019 10:42 am
Biggest difference between the Giants and the Steelers...two family connected teams...and yet the Steelers make the Giants look like complete idiots.

What a job Mike Tomlin has done this year! What are they now, on their fourth quarterback and yet they are still winning...sitting with an 8-5 record...and have had multiple injuries to key players. I think yesterday James Conner and Jo Jo Smith-Shuster did not play yet they won anyway.

That is brilliant coaching and a culture that does not accept losing. It is exactly what we do not have. I don't know how the Steelers do it but they sure as hell know how to pick coaches and they support them all the way.

Maybe we need to hire someone from the Steelers to fix the garbage Mara has allowed to transpire in New York. We used to have this type of coaching so many years ago. We have now become a coach's graveyard.

When a coach and a team respond like the Steelers have and do, you have to admire that. Compare that to our situation and you truly realize that we have dunces leading the way, starting with the owner.
Same  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 12/9/2019 10:43 am : link
with the Patriots. Look at how they had to manufacture offense yesterday with some really wild plays.
RE: Same  
Victor in CT : 12/9/2019 10:45 am : link
In comment 14708431 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
with the Patriots. Look at how they had to manufacture offense yesterday with some really wild plays.


Yep. And Romo made a comment about it that really struck me. He pointed out how BB and the Pats like to pull those trick plays, but only in big games when they really need it. Said they "don't do it to win 40-9, but to get points in big games"
Juju  
BeckShepEli : 12/9/2019 10:46 am : link
Has missed 4 games and got hurt in the Cleveland game early.

Conner has missed 6 games and got hurt early in Cleveland game.

Coaching is everything. Pat Shurmur is not an NFL coach and if John fucking Mara brings this asshole back next year I hope fans actually donít show up to games. Itís a waste of money for us.
Yep, itís obvious  
Oscar : 12/9/2019 10:47 am : link
Giants talent is certainly lacking but the biggest deficiency is coaching. Need to improve in both areas.
Agree Jerry, been tallking about that for a while now.  
Victor in CT : 12/9/2019 10:47 am : link
When players don't improve, or worse, regress, that is on the coaches.

The Gianst don't have an identity, especially on offense. SHurmur has no fell of what he wants his team to be.

On defense, they are just incompetenet. Bettcher is awful.
offer Tomlin  
Chip : 12/9/2019 10:48 am : link
12 mil a year and the steelers can have Engram
Coaching doesn't matter  
jeff57 : 12/9/2019 10:48 am : link
.
I'd also point to Flores  
Chris684 : 12/9/2019 10:49 am : link
and how he's gotten that team to play over the second half of the season with a roster that was completely gutted. They were robbed blind yesterday.

Vrabel in Tennessee also seems to be getting every ounce he can out of a decent team with not much to speak of at QB.
Mike Tomlin is fantastic  
Dnew15 : 12/9/2019 10:50 am : link
BB is the best to ever coach the game.

These guys are really hard to find and if there was one available - I'm pretty sure John Mara, Chris Mara, DG or anyone else in the Giants organization would hire them.

Too many people are running around this place talking like they wouldn't.
RE: Same  
Young Elijah : 12/9/2019 10:51 am : link
In comment 14708431 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
with the Patriots. Look at how they had to manufacture offense yesterday with some really wild plays.


What I love most about them doing this, is they are publicly willing to acknowledge their weakness and counteract it. 95% of coaches (100% of giants coaches in recent memory) never do this.

I never understood the term "trick play". Every play is a trick outside of a QB kneel. All ball fakes, motions, blocking schemes are developed to move defenders eyes and force false steps - why a simply toss pass is viewed differently has been beyond me since I could understand the game.

And I hope the league and especially Giants playcallers, both present and future, should take notes and be on notice - calling plays that are not the basic 10 plays on a call sheet does not mean they are poor coaches, but rather they they are supremely aware that if they are not bigger, better, stronger than the opponent - that differnt things need to happen to move the chains and keep the D off balance.
Who tf would say that? Lol  
Thankyoueli : 12/9/2019 10:52 am : link
Play calling is 50% of the game.

And that's not even including preparation. Training, film study, etc.
RE: Juju  
Optimus-NY : 12/9/2019 10:54 am : link
In comment 14708441 BeckShepEli said:
Quote:
Has missed 4 games and got hurt in the Cleveland game early.

Conner has missed 6 games and got hurt early in Cleveland game.

Coaching is everything. Pat Shurmur is not an NFL coach and if John fucking Mara brings this asshole back next year I hope fans actually donít show up to games. Itís a waste of money for us.


Agreed.
Who ever said coaching doesn't matter?  
jcn56 : 12/9/2019 10:55 am : link
It's half the game - the other half is talent.

The Giants are deficient in both areas.
Said this in another thread  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/9/2019 11:17 am : link
if you are a coach that is lamenting that you don't have the requisite talent on a particular side of the ball to compete, and the owner calls you into his office and he asks you why and how the Steelers are winning games and you are not, what is your answer?

0-2 to start the year with Ben before he gets hurt and was lost for the season.

They benched their backup Rudolph because he was "killing them" (words of Tomlin). their other backup Dobbs was traded early in the season. They are on their 4th string rookie QB.

Bell, who was replaced by Conner, has not played since 11/14. Their starting RB is a 4th round rookie from this draft Snell, who if he gets 70 yards before Conner returns, will be the teams leading rusher.

Brown, who the team traded, was replaced by Smith-Schuster in the #1 WR role, has been injured. Their leading WR is Dionte Johnson, a 3rd round rookie from this 2019 Draft (wait, you can find players in the 3rd round? Thought you couldn't). He had a punt return for a TD and 6 catches for 60 yards and another TD in their W yesterday.

Jaylen Samuels, a 5th round RB from the 2018 draft has made a contribution. James Washington, a 2nd round rookie WR from the 2018 draft has made a contribution.

These are the guys doing some of the work on a team that has stayed afloat and if they win one more game, will likely make the playoffs. Yet, they are not asking or making the excuse that they are young, rookies, or anything else.

Tomlin's performance with that roster of players on offense and still winning games is going to get these other coaches fired.
RE: Mike Tomlin is fantastic  
BigBlueinChicago : 12/9/2019 11:19 am : link
In comment 14708459 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
BB is the best to ever coach the game.

These guys are really hard to find and if there was one available - I'm pretty sure John Mara, Chris Mara, DG or anyone else in the Giants organization would hire them.

Too many people are running around this place talking like they wouldn't.


Finding a high quality head coach one could argue is more difficult than finding a franchise QB.

The Giants seem to think the QB is more important, which is odd.
They both have  
Gettledogman : 12/9/2019 11:19 am : link
and always have a good Defense and Solid OLs
Tomlin deserves serious consideration for  
SFGFNCGiantsFan : 12/9/2019 11:20 am : link
COY with what he's doing there. I'd kill for him to be our coach. But we got Pat so we're alright...
You take every edge you can to win games  
Rudy5757 : 12/9/2019 11:27 am : link
I dont think Shurmur understands that and for an offensive coach he only knows his plays and forces guys to play in his system. He doesn't create plays around the talent.

On O we are very predictable and I also dont see a lot of hard counts even though the defense is pinning their ears back to rush, rarely to I see them offsides. We don't chip the rushers enough either. Those are little things that teams use to gain an edge and we just dont see that enough out of this team.

Usually when a team has youth, coaches use more trick plays to even out the talent and youth discrepancy, you have nothing to lose by trying new things. If nothing else it makes the team watchable and exciting for the players. when a play works it gives a team a lot of momentum. We are boring and predictable. the team plays hard but at some point you have to realize that is not enough and create better opportunities.
Who told you coaching doesn't matter?  
Mike in Long Beach : 12/9/2019 11:28 am : link
.
RE: I'd also point to Flores  
Johnny5 : 12/9/2019 11:36 am : link
In comment 14708456 Chris684 said:
Quote:
and how he's gotten that team to play over the second half of the season with a roster that was completely gutted. They were robbed blind yesterday.

Vrabel in Tennessee also seems to be getting every ounce he can out of a decent team with not much to speak of at QB.

I agree but for the Tenn QB comment. Tannehill is playing really well, really finally showing what people expected out of him.
RE: RE: I'd also point to Flores  
Dinger : 12/9/2019 11:45 am : link
In comment 14708543 Johnny5 said:
Quote:
In comment 14708456 Chris684 said:


Quote:


and how he's gotten that team to play over the second half of the season with a roster that was completely gutted. They were robbed blind yesterday.

Vrabel in Tennessee also seems to be getting every ounce he can out of a decent team with not much to speak of at QB.


I agree but for the Tenn QB comment. Tannehill is playing really well, really finally showing what people expected out of him.


agreed but hes finally with a coaching staff who's getting the best out of him....
Who would ever say coaching doesnt matter?  
mattlawson : 12/9/2019 11:47 am : link
Talent alone wont do it. Otherwise the Cowboys would be undefeated and the 2011 Philly Dream Team would have won the SB instead of us.
everyone calm down. you're acting like we're a 2 win team.  
markky : 12/9/2019 12:08 pm : link
besides, you don't know what's happening behind the scenes - is the arrow pointing up or down? that's what really matters - the behind the scenes stuff. stop judging by what you see on Sundays.
Steelers  
GiantEgo : 12/9/2019 12:30 pm : link
Only 6 losing seasons since 1972 thats 46 years...think about it. They don't get nearly enough credit.
....  
Toth029 : 12/9/2019 12:34 pm : link
They're 8-3 without Ben.

Coaching is absolutely crucial. And Ben is a bit overrated.
RE: I'd also point to Flores  
Spider56 : 12/9/2019 12:40 pm : link
In comment 14708456 Chris684 said:
Quote:
and how he's gotten that team to play over the second half of the season with a roster that was completely gutted. They were robbed blind yesterday.

Vrabel in Tennessee also seems to be getting every ounce he can out of a decent team with not much to speak of at QB.


+1 ... and the fire Flores showed at the end of the game was outstanding.
RE: Who ever said coaching doesn't matter?  
Greg from LI : 12/9/2019 12:47 pm : link
In comment 14708475 jcn56 said:
Quote:
It's half the game - the other half is talent.

The Giants are deficient in both areas.


Yeah, that was an obvious strawman, one that was most likely intended as another means by which to absolve Gettleman of blame for a lousy roster.

A better coach would have a better record than 2-10, but Vince Lombardi reincarnated wouldn't be able to get this turd of a roster over .500.
One word answer...Yes  
Blue21 : 12/9/2019 1:03 pm : link
.
RE: Mike Tomlin is fantastic  
RDJR : 12/9/2019 1:22 pm : link
In comment 14708459 Dnew15 said:
Quote:
BB is the best to ever coach the game.

These guys are really hard to find and if there was one available - I'm pretty sure John Mara, Chris Mara, DG or anyone else in the Giants organization would hire them.

Too many people are running around this place talking like they wouldn't.


Would they recognize that person?
Steelers don't have dual ownership  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 12/9/2019 1:22 pm : link
That's Management 101 mistake right there.
RE: ....  
Giantz_comeback : 12/9/2019 2:05 pm : link
In comment 14708641 Toth029 said:
Quote:
They're 8-3 without Ben.

Coaching is absolutely crucial. And Ben is a bit overrated.


Coaching is probably the most important thing over everything followed by QB
RE: RE: ....  
lax counsel : 12/9/2019 2:56 pm : link
In comment 14708786 Giantz_comeback said:
Quote:
In comment 14708641 Toth029 said:


Quote:


They're 8-3 without Ben.

Coaching is absolutely crucial. And Ben is a bit overrated.



Coaching is probably the most important thing over everything followed by QB


Agreed. And to be in regular contention every year you need the combination of franchise coach and qb. Think 2005-2012 for the Giants. And some of the other franchises like the Seahawks, Patriots, Steelers, Saints, etc. You need both to regularly compete for titles in this league. Otherwise you are a one off anomaly.
comparing steelers and giants?  
bc4life : 12/9/2019 3:08 pm : link
look at steelers - Heyward, Watt, Bush, Dupree, Fitzpatrick, Haden, Nelson. 3-4 and their stacked at the LB position

compare OLines - the talent is not the same not even close.

and they have veteran players who have been in the system for years, but yeah go ahead with this argument
'Don't tell me coaching doesn't matter...'  
Torrag : 12/9/2019 3:30 pm : link
I don't think I've ever heard anyone say that about sports..ever.
Coaching is a lot of it...  
FanMan : 12/9/2019 3:30 pm : link
...but talent is too. Without the Minkah Fitzpatrick trade, I doubt the Steelers and Tomlin have this level of success. That addition of talent unlocked a lot of their defensive playbook, and elevated others around him. You can compete with talent OR great coaching, but you need both to go deep into the playoffs and get a Lombardi.
Averages  
idiotsavant : 12/9/2019 3:48 pm : link
Average salary for assistant and unit coaches per team.

Average years coaching -at the professional level- for assistant and unit coaches per team.

Number of former pro level players among assistant and unit coaches per team.

Average hours worked per front office member per week per 52 weeks per team.
RE: Mike Tomlin is fantastic  
santacruzom : 12/9/2019 4:43 pm : link
In comment 14708459 Dnew15 said:
Quote:

These guys are really hard to find and if there was one available - I'm pretty sure John Mara, Chris Mara, DG or anyone else in the Giants organization would hire them.



Offering them the job isn't the hard part. Recognizing them as being the right people to make an offer to in the first place... that's the tricky part.
Great thread  
5BowlsSoon : 12/9/2019 5:24 pm : link
I fully agree....that is why I would love Bill Cowher to be our HC if he is willing.
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