He hasn't been as great as many here seem to want to believe. He's at 6.4 YPA (31st in NFL above Trubisky and Rudolph), has a 3% INT rate (27th in NFL), 8.2% sack rate (28th in NFL), and leads the league with 15 fumbles.
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
have you read my posts? i said a million times mara was an idiot for thinking we could compete. whether he was just too dumb or was hanging onto something with ol eli. either way he was wrong. its now time to turn it around...they drafted a QB and now need to build OL and add to the young defense...i think another year and we have a better idea if we are heading in right direction or not
You would be trading Daniel Jones & Chase Young for Joe Burrow - is that a trade you’d make?
If we're picking #1 and I have that choice (like I said above if we're picking #2 the conditions are different), I'd probably do it. I'm also getting something in return (possibly a first rounder) for trading Jones.
I believe ownership wants a franchise QB to be here for the next 10 years (it's not what I'd do, but it's the reality). If we hitch the wagon to the wrong QB I don't know that Chase Young makes up for that in the long term.
I don't like some of the things I see with Jones. There are too many big negative plays. We lived with that with Eli because he was huge in the big games...I read today that over the course of his career he was 8-1 against the spread as a playoff underdog. Ridiculous. It's impossible to imagine Jones approaching anything like that to make up for the negative plays. And I'm also not certain that it's something that can be coached out of him. It never got coached out of Eli; if anything it got beat out of him and he became a checkdown QB.
As much as I think there's a different way to do it, the reality is that this is a franchise QB league. We've got to get that position right, and it's mathematically unlikely we'll have another pick this high any time soon that lines up with a year with a QB prospect like Burrow that is, I think, much better than Jones.
So yeah, I'd draft Burrow #1.
For what it's worth, it's not mathematically unlikely. We had the #2 pick 2 years ago and we have the #2 pick now. If you suck you'll be picking high.
I don't get it. So Shurmur is gone, but Gettleman is "in trouble"? Â
you do realize that almost no rookie QB plays really well right? Nobody is saying Jones is playing great, I think that's missing the point. Point we are making is, he has the demeanor, leadership qualities, and most importantly, talent, to be our franchise QB. It's easy to see all that. If he doesn't improve greatly in year 2, then we can start to say he might not be the guy. But as of now, I gotta think most everyone is very happy with Jones no?
I don't think Burrow is a significantly better pro prospect than Jones. Burrow is having an all time year at LSU, but I wouldn't call him that much better of a prospect. Tua was and is a better prospect than Jones, before the hip injury.
you do realize that almost no rookie QB plays really well right? Nobody is saying Jones is playing great, I think that's missing the point. Point we are making is, he has the demeanor, leadership qualities, and most importantly, talent, to be our franchise QB. It's easy to see all that. If he doesn't improve greatly in year 2, then we can start to say he might not be the guy. But as of now, I gotta think most everyone is very happy with Jones no?
if we basically had anyone other than Shurmur for the past 2 years, people would feel A LOT better about Gettleman. Shurmur is the worst coach in football.
DG owns that because he hired the pussy, I mean adult.
He hasn't been as great as many here seem to want to believe. He's at 6.4 YPA (31st in NFL above Trubisky and Rudolph), has a 3% INT rate (27th in NFL), 8.2% sack rate (28th in NFL), and leads the league with 15 fumbles.
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
I have seen enough elite traits in Jones that I would not take a QB unless that QB grades out significantly higher than the other players at premium positions. He certainly has warts, so does Burrow. A trade down to nab Tua and defensive difference maker could be interesting but we have no guarantee how far Tua falls. I am taking Young if I am the new GM with an opportunity to draft him.
I understand he's a rookie, but there are some really troubling aspects to his game that I'm not sure his talent is great enough to overcome.
GT no offense, but that's bullshit. He's a rookie QB, playing on a terrible team, with a terrible LT, a below average RT, and a somewhat terrible C. How can you say that Jones can't "overcome" some troubling aspects that he has shown in his...first 12 NFL games?!
We lived with Eli's turnovers because he was clutch in big games. We can't expect Jones to follow Eli's unusual career path.
Jones was a turnover machine in his first 12 starts. The causes for those turnovers: poor pocket awareness, poor ball security - I'm not convinced that is easily coached out of someone. If you're going to turn it over that much and take that many sacks you'd better be a highly explosive QB, which Jones has not been at this early stage.
I'm not giving up on the guy, I'm just saying that we may have an opportunity to draft a (clearly) better prospect. And if you think Jones is a better prospect than Burrow, we're watching different games.
I understand he's a rookie, but there are some really troubling aspects to his game that I'm not sure his talent is great enough to overcome.
GT no offense, but that's bullshit. He's a rookie QB, playing on a terrible team, with a terrible LT, a below average RT, and a somewhat terrible C. How can you say that Jones can't "overcome" some troubling aspects that he has shown in his...first 12 NFL games?!
As a Giants fan, you've seen players be drafted, look promising, and regress.
Jones' issues aren't just because of the players around him, so dismissing it as bullshit is making things far too simple. Fans expect that players get better from year 1 to year 2, but it's never a guarantee. Especially if they fire the head coach and start over with a new offense he has to learn. Time spent for a rookie having to learn a new offense is time that isn't spent working on refining talent and focusing on personal improvement.
"Being drafted by the Giants," is the least likely guarantee to have a successful NFL career of basically any factor in the NFL over the last decade.
All of these players have to prove it, and get no benefit of the doubt.
This is not a program that's churned out young success stories at some above average rate.
If these youngsters succeed at a normal rate, some of y'all are going to be pissy. If these youngsters succeed at the going rate for Giant draft picks, some of y'all will literally piss.
have way too high of expectations for a rookie QB, and that shocks me a bit considering what we saw with Eli, and just the history of rookie QB play around the league. It's just weird to me. Jones has looked awesome some games, and bad in others. He's a rookie, this is what happens. The hope is that you took the guy that can lead a franchise to championship level on a consistent basis over time. Which, is what this guy appears to be capable of doing. Look at how he has handled everything since he got here.
My plan is to hire people that are better at scouting talent and allocating resources. If you're asking what my plan would be if I were in their shoes, it would be to identify what is on the team that's actually good. To my eye, that doesn't go far past Lawrence, Tomlinson, Slayton, and maybe Love. After that I'm liquidating everything I can for draft picks and starting fresh at every opportunity.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
I'd want to stick with Jones too unless I was sure Burrow was better. Hernandez I still have hope for. The rest of this sorry roster can burn.
you've got to work pretty hard to fault Jones' performance as a rookie Â
with what would at best be described as marginal talent around him he's t-15th with 18 TD passes, which is also 2nd among all first or second year QB's behind only Lamar Jackson, and that's despite playing fewer games than most of them. He's shown the ability to utilize his legs and make athletic plays fighting for extra yards. The fumbles are no doubt a problem area but he's also thrown fewer INT's than most rookie QBs do. Most aren't +7 TD vs. INT and over 60% completions. Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen weren't last year.
QBR isn't a "holy grail" stat or anything, but it does seem to capture the performance of some of the best qb's accurately (Lamer, Mahomes, Dak, Wilson, Watson are IMO correctly this years top 5) - and Jones' ranking there is pretty solid too (#20 of 31 qualified, which happens to be tied with Mayfield and Brady and ahead of some accomplished players like Jared Goff and recent top picks lke Darnold and Josh Allen).
Every player who has ever played in the NFL has had their career determined by their progress or regression over time - and Jones will be no different. But on the scale of rookie QB play that regularly includes outcomes like Haskins this year or Rosen last year or Mitch Trubisky the year before that, it seems short sighted and unrealistic to be net negative evaluating Jones' performance to date.
have way too high of expectations for a rookie QB, and that shocks me a bit considering what we saw with Eli, and just the history of rookie QB play around the league. It's just weird to me. Jones has looked awesome some games, and bad in others. He's a rookie, this is what happens. The hope is that you took the guy that can lead a franchise to championship level on a consistent basis over time. Which, is what this guy appears to be capable of doing. Look at how he has handled everything since he got here.
I'm reading a lot of rationalizing here, and the dreaded use of the word "hope". I don't want the Giants to hope to win...I want them to start trying to win. They haven't tried to win in years.
I've tried to be as specific as possible regarding Jones. He's turned the ball over, shown poor pocket awareness, and not been explosive. The offense did not improve at all when he took over for Eli. If you think Jones is going to be a franchise QB (whatever that means), that's fine - but you can't point to anything concrete. You have to hope he is.
I'm done hoping.
I see a better player in Burrow. He's better in the pocket, he's decisive, and he's dominating the best teams in the best conference in college football. He's probably going to win the Heisman, and he has a decent chance of leading his team to a national championship. I'm admittedly just another asshole at a keyboard, but when I watch him play I see a better QB than Jones is.
If I'm the Giants' new GM and I have the top pick, and my evaluators tell me that Burrow is a superior quarterback to Jones, I'm taking him. It doesn't mean Jones sucks, it just means I'm trying to get better...not hoping.
Gettleman has to go. Imagine giving him 1 or 2 more "make or break" years and letting him spend gobs of cash on mediocre free agents in hopes of saving his job. Sounds familiar.
we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
Agree 100%.
what's to realize?
What exactly have we've received in return for trading JPP and Vernon? the same guys that say
Jerry Reese was so so so bad for the roster
Completely cummed at the idea that DG traded for Ogletree. At least when Jerry paid defensive players they actually produced at above level replacement for their position.
What exactly has this team become once DG gutted it? DG drafted BJ Hill, Dalvin Tomlinson, and then panic traded for Leonard Williams at 2-7 record. Dexter Lawrence has been completely invisible for 9 out of 13 games.
And even when DG had the choice to take the first CB off the board, he took a guy who succeeded at man coverage in college and asked him to play zone to ruin his development.
but yeah, lets have DG overpay LW because he's now a sunk cost.
lets have DG draft another 13 hog mollies
lets have DG trade for more below average first round picks (peppers, ogle tree)
DG is beyond a fucking disaster. He's radioactive nuclear waste that's poisoning this franchise.
If you are a hiring manager, or in this case Mara - aren’t there going to be inherent biases to hire someone who has a conviction/vision to win with the QB you already have?
Even if 5 young promising executives are interviewed in addition to 6-7 young or veteran HC candidates, wouldn’t the pair who has a conviction towards Jones/Barkley have the upper hand (assuming they have the qualifications for the job)?
It is very bold to change course on QB not even a year after drafting him. Is Burrow a better prospect than Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, Watson & Mahomes? Is he a once in a generation prospect? Has Jones been THAT bad?
There was a lot of preparation & due diligence into the Jones pick. The franchise took massive heat for the conviction, the thought of them changing course not even a year later is hard to believe. I’d be confident there will be prospective GM’s/HC’s who will bring up the excitement to work with Jones & Barkley during the interview process.
Lastly, Mara writes the checks and he agreed to take on massive dead money this year to see this “plan” through. I don’t know how eager he will be to see another premium pick flushed down the toilet for the hope that Burrow’s game translates to the pros.
He should be playing this way. It's not all that impressive compared to Tua putting up similar numbers as a true sophomore or even Dwayne Haskins as a first year starter/redshirt sophomore. Considering the team talent criticism that Haskins was ludicrously saddled with on BBI around this time last year, I'm not sure how Burrow manages to avoid the same thing. I think the kid has talent, but I'm not throwing Daniel Jones overboard for him. Burrow is not Trevor Lawrence. He's not even a healthy Tua.
The idea that someone/anyone hasn't seen enough (or anything) from Daniel Jones is beyond laughable. In the history of the NFL, Jones is the first rookie QB ever with 3 games of 300+ yards passing, 2+ passing TDs, and zero interceptions. (The previous record was only 2 games done by just one rookie named Dak Prescott.)
As a comparison, he's already done this as many times through 10 starts as Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen, and Lamar Jackson have in their 109 starts combined.
The criticism of some of Jones' individual traits seem to willfully ignore the fact he's a rookie involved in the learning process of becoming a NFL QB. That process is only made more difficult with horrendous coaches, horrendous o-line, and skill position players who've been in and out of the lineup. Thankfully, the idea of moving on from Jones to draft Burrow, if available, seems limited to very few people either here, the media, and hopefully none in the front office (now or later).
Unfortunately, this is the area where we have to have hope. We have to hope that one of the candidates has the balls to tell Mara that the way he's doing things is broken. Then we have to hope Mara is humble enough to accept that criticism.
This next month has the chance to be a turning point.
But you and Peter King are probably right: if a guy says in an interview that he doesn't believe in Daniel Jones he probably isn't getting a second interview.
RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
He should be playing this way. It's not all that impressive compared to Tua putting up similar numbers as a true sophomore or even Dwayne Haskins as a first year starter/redshirt sophomore. Considering the team talent criticism that Haskins was ludicrously saddled with on BBI around this time last year, I'm not sure how Burrow manages to avoid the same thing. I think the kid has talent, but I'm not throwing Daniel Jones overboard for him. Burrow is not Trevor Lawrence. He's not even a healthy Tua.
The idea that someone/anyone hasn't seen enough (or anything) from Daniel Jones is beyond laughable. In the history of the NFL, Jones is the first rookie QB ever with 3 games of 300+ yards passing, 2+ passing TDs, and zero interceptions. (The previous record was only 2 games done by just one rookie named Dak Prescott.)
As a comparison, he's already done this as many times through 10 starts as Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen, and Lamar Jackson have in their 109 starts combined.
The criticism of some of Jones' individual traits seem to willfully ignore the fact he's a rookie involved in the learning process of becoming a NFL QB. That process is only made more difficult with horrendous coaches, horrendous o-line, and skill position players who've been in and out of the lineup. Thankfully, the idea of moving on from Jones to draft Burrow, if available, seems limited to very few people either here, the media, and hopefully none in the front office (now or later).
Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
RE: RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
Who said Jones was untouchable? I certainly didn't. But Joe Burrow isn't a prospect whose availability would demand the Giants toss Jones overboard for.
Rookies QBs have played bad defenses for a long time. No one else has managed to put up the performances Jones has, so it's hardly nothing. I also recall Eli Manning's performances as a rookie against "good" defenses. Thank goodness the Giants didn't use that a pretext to gauge whether or not Eli was "untouchable".
- is playing behind the worst OL in the NFL
- has a complete JOKE of an 'offensive minded' head coach/staff
-Hasn't played ONE single game yet with all of his offensive weapons in the same game due to injury/suspension.
- Has been playing with virtually no running game all season long, between the horrid OL, Barkley not being 100% from the injury, and/or a combo of both.
Oh yeah, and he's a ROOKIE. I'd be SHOCKED if he doesn't at least turn out to be a good NFL QB once we even have a decent coaching staff, OL, running game, and better/healthier weapons for him to throw to in the future. Oh, and of course, once he gets more experience himself, considering he hasn't even played in 16 regular season games yet.
RE: RE: RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
Who said Jones was untouchable? I certainly didn't. But Joe Burrow isn't a prospect whose availability would demand the Giants toss Jones overboard for.
Rookies QBs have played bad defenses for a long time. No one else has managed to put up the performances Jones has, so it's hardly nothing. I also recall Eli Manning's performances as a rookie against "good" defenses. Thank goodness the Giants didn't use that a pretext to gauge whether or not Eli was "untouchable".
For the sake of argument, if we're talking about statistical records, how does Baker Mayfield look one year after breaking the rookie passing TD record? We're in a different league now than most of the NFL's history of developing quarterbacks. It's not really fair to stack 100 years of league history against what Daniel Jones is doing right now, when it just gets easier and easier to pass the football every year.
Four NFL quarterbacks have a completion percentage above 70 percent this year. 10 quarterbacks have a passer rating over 100.
The game would be unrecognizable to players from even the 90s. And it's not stars doing it. It's nobodies like Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins, and Ryan Tannehill. For some Giants perspective, we all agree Eli Manning's best professional season was 2011, where despite a bad offensive line and no running game, he carried the offense to the playoffs. It was the only season in his career where he averaged 300 yards per game and passed for 4900 yards.
Right now, 16 NFL quarterbacks have a higher passer rating than that season by Eli.
It's a different world than 2004 when Eli Manning was thrown to the wolves and had a 0.0 QB rating against an NFL defense.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
For the sake of argument, if we're talking about statistical records, how does Baker Mayfield look one year after breaking the rookie passing TD record? We're in a different league now than most of the NFL's history of developing quarterbacks. It's not really fair to stack 100 years of league history against what Daniel Jones is doing right now, when it just gets easier and easier to pass the football every year.
Four NFL quarterbacks have a completion percentage above 70 percent this year. 10 quarterbacks have a passer rating over 100.
The game would be unrecognizable to players from even the 90s. And it's not stars doing it. It's nobodies like Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins, and Ryan Tannehill. For some Giants perspective, we all agree Eli Manning's best professional season was 2011, where despite a bad offensive line and no running game, he carried the offense to the playoffs. It was the only season in his career where he averaged 300 yards per game and passed for 4900 yards.
Right now, 16 NFL quarterbacks have a higher passer rating than that season by Eli.
It's a different world than 2004 when Eli Manning was thrown to the wolves and had a 0.0 QB rating against an NFL defense.
Then let's not go back that far. As I said in my original post, Jones has managed that statistical combo in a game as many times (three) as all five QBs drafted in the first round of the 2018 draft combined in 90+ less starts. And I'm going to assume the 5 of them have played bad defenses so far. Heck, Allen and Darnold have both played the Giants.
It doesn't mean Jones is Joe Montana's clone. But this idea that he hasn't done/shown anything is simply asinine.
if Andrew Luck was sitting there anyone would have to consider drafting him unless you already had a Mahomes or Russell Wilson. Joe Burrow is having a terrific season and has a lot of tools but as a prospect he is far from can't miss. On an LSU team that was just about as loaded with athletes as it is every year (ended last season ranked 6th) he completed 58% of his passes and threw for just 16 touchdowns in 13 games, and they got absolutely obliterated by Bama.
They have rolled over everyone this year and he shredded both Bama and UGA, but there's a reason QB is the position with the highest bust rate - even among guys who are multi-year stand outs from the day they step on campus from high school. 1 year wonders are inherently riskier as prospects - Trubisky and Haskins being the most recent negative examples and Kyler probably being the best positive example.
just what about Jones makes you think he isn't capable of running this team? Fumbles are correctable and most will go away with a better oline. Aside from that, he looks pretty damn good.
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
Aaron Rodgers is the exact opposite of a turnover machine.
RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
He should be playing this way. It's not all that impressive compared to Tua putting up similar numbers as a true sophomore or even Dwayne Haskins as a first year starter/redshirt sophomore. Considering the team talent criticism that Haskins was ludicrously saddled with on BBI around this time last year, I'm not sure how Burrow manages to avoid the same thing. I think the kid has talent, but I'm not throwing Daniel Jones overboard for him. Burrow is not Trevor Lawrence. He's not even a healthy Tua.
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
there is no question Burrows dominated this year Â
but he did not dominate at all last year with the exact same cast around him. They changed the offense to an obviously great effect but it's just a fact that he doesn't have a multi-year resume like the most #1OA qb prospects have had. His resume is a lot closer to Trubisky than Luck.
Kyler was the first successful 1 year guy in a while. Cam was probably the last guy before that?
RE: RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
A perfect confluence of events over the course of a full season against that level of competition seems entirely impossible. You cant even really relate it to Dwaune Haskins, considering schedule and Haskins' significant experience gap.
His free agent pickups have been an absolute disaster. I like his first 2 drafts but they hinge on DJ being a franchise QB. We will know at the end of 2020 season a lot more about DJ.
With $50 + million in cap this offseason, I don’t trust DG making the right decisions on free agents.
I would really hope Mara grows a set and cleans house this offseason. That includes a change in pro personnel department.
My heart tells me that won’t happen. Let’s see
The kid performed well on the worst team in the league, with the worst offensive line in the league, under the worst coach in the league, and with two of his starting WRs and TE missing significant time
Then some of you want to sit here and tell us that someone else in the upcoming draft would be a better prospect? Really? We know this how? Because of grading? He would be coming here to play beer the same conditions I referenced above.
I agree, and would add that if Gettleman goes, Chris Mara has to go.
This is the biggest problem though - if the decision is made to retain Gettleman, what's the likelihood that the same justification used to spare Gettleman doesn't also get applied to Mara?
That's the one thing you'd have to hope if the team did hand over the reigns to Rivera, that he comes in and says 'OK, I expect more control over personnel, and that guy (pointing to Mara) needs to spend more time at the stables'.
I agree, and would add that if Gettleman goes, Chris Mara has to go.
This is the biggest problem though - if the decision is made to retain Gettleman, what's the likelihood that the same justification used to spare Gettleman doesn't also get applied to Mara?
That's the one thing you'd have to hope if the team did hand over the reigns to Rivera, that he comes in and says 'OK, I expect more control over personnel, and that guy (pointing to Mara) needs to spend more time at the stables'.
Hopefully internally they have a better idea of who was behind what decision. Given the numerous 180s this team has bald you got a think they’re pulling in opposite directions
RE: RE: RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
Of course the numbers are different for Burrow from 2018 to 2019. Joe Brady arrived in 2019. An offensive savant who worked under Sean Payton with the Saints.
Look, I get it. I'm the Chairman of the "Careful with the One Hit Wonder Club".
But sometimes the light finally goes on and a player gets it. I think with the arrival of Joe Brady, that's what happened with Burrow this year. And his turnaround was in the SEC against the best competition in the country, not the Big 12 and their various types of swiss cheese.
Forget all of his gaudy numbers, just watch his pocket movements, his ability to stay poised, how he keeps his head up when the pocket collapses, etc. It's good stuff. And those qualities go a long way towards NFL success...
He hasn't been as great as many here seem to want to believe. He's at 6.4 YPA (31st in NFL above Trubisky and Rudolph), has a 3% INT rate (27th in NFL), 8.2% sack rate (28th in NFL), and leads the league with 15 fumbles.
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
This is my take as well. I went bananas after his first two starts (and preseason) but reality set in fast. And I’ve seen too many young QBs flame out in similar fashion. Fool me once. I still like jones but nothing should be off the table no matter how painful it might seem. With that said this isn’t josh rosen either. Jones did flash more than a guy like rosen did despite similarly shitty situations. Jones could have played a lot worse this year.
Which makes no sense.
That's my feeling as well.
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
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In comment 14713463 ryanmkeane said:
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we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
have you read my posts? i said a million times mara was an idiot for thinking we could compete. whether he was just too dumb or was hanging onto something with ol eli. either way he was wrong. its now time to turn it around...they drafted a QB and now need to build OL and add to the young defense...i think another year and we have a better idea if we are heading in right direction or not
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You would be trading Daniel Jones & Chase Young for Joe Burrow - is that a trade you’d make?
If we're picking #1 and I have that choice (like I said above if we're picking #2 the conditions are different), I'd probably do it. I'm also getting something in return (possibly a first rounder) for trading Jones.
I believe ownership wants a franchise QB to be here for the next 10 years (it's not what I'd do, but it's the reality). If we hitch the wagon to the wrong QB I don't know that Chase Young makes up for that in the long term.
I don't like some of the things I see with Jones. There are too many big negative plays. We lived with that with Eli because he was huge in the big games...I read today that over the course of his career he was 8-1 against the spread as a playoff underdog. Ridiculous. It's impossible to imagine Jones approaching anything like that to make up for the negative plays. And I'm also not certain that it's something that can be coached out of him. It never got coached out of Eli; if anything it got beat out of him and he became a checkdown QB.
As much as I think there's a different way to do it, the reality is that this is a franchise QB league. We've got to get that position right, and it's mathematically unlikely we'll have another pick this high any time soon that lines up with a year with a QB prospect like Burrow that is, I think, much better than Jones.
So yeah, I'd draft Burrow #1.
For what it's worth, it's not mathematically unlikely. We had the #2 pick 2 years ago and we have the #2 pick now. If you suck you'll be picking high.
i agree and i am
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
GT no offense, but that's bullshit. He's a rookie QB, playing on a terrible team, with a terrible LT, a below average RT, and a somewhat terrible C. How can you say that Jones can't "overcome" some troubling aspects that he has shown in his...first 12 NFL games?!
Jones was a turnover machine in his first 12 starts. The causes for those turnovers: poor pocket awareness, poor ball security - I'm not convinced that is easily coached out of someone. If you're going to turn it over that much and take that many sacks you'd better be a highly explosive QB, which Jones has not been at this early stage.
I'm not giving up on the guy, I'm just saying that we may have an opportunity to draft a (clearly) better prospect. And if you think Jones is a better prospect than Burrow, we're watching different games.
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I understand he's a rookie, but there are some really troubling aspects to his game that I'm not sure his talent is great enough to overcome.
GT no offense, but that's bullshit. He's a rookie QB, playing on a terrible team, with a terrible LT, a below average RT, and a somewhat terrible C. How can you say that Jones can't "overcome" some troubling aspects that he has shown in his...first 12 NFL games?!
As a Giants fan, you've seen players be drafted, look promising, and regress.
Jones' issues aren't just because of the players around him, so dismissing it as bullshit is making things far too simple. Fans expect that players get better from year 1 to year 2, but it's never a guarantee. Especially if they fire the head coach and start over with a new offense he has to learn. Time spent for a rookie having to learn a new offense is time that isn't spent working on refining talent and focusing on personal improvement.
All of these players have to prove it, and get no benefit of the doubt.
This is not a program that's churned out young success stories at some above average rate.
If these youngsters succeed at a normal rate, some of y'all are going to be pissy. If these youngsters succeed at the going rate for Giant draft picks, some of y'all will literally piss.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
I'd want to stick with Jones too unless I was sure Burrow was better. Hernandez I still have hope for. The rest of this sorry roster can burn.
QBR isn't a "holy grail" stat or anything, but it does seem to capture the performance of some of the best qb's accurately (Lamer, Mahomes, Dak, Wilson, Watson are IMO correctly this years top 5) - and Jones' ranking there is pretty solid too (#20 of 31 qualified, which happens to be tied with Mayfield and Brady and ahead of some accomplished players like Jared Goff and recent top picks lke Darnold and Josh Allen).
Every player who has ever played in the NFL has had their career determined by their progress or regression over time - and Jones will be no different. But on the scale of rookie QB play that regularly includes outcomes like Haskins this year or Rosen last year or Mitch Trubisky the year before that, it seems short sighted and unrealistic to be net negative evaluating Jones' performance to date.
I'm reading a lot of rationalizing here, and the dreaded use of the word "hope". I don't want the Giants to hope to win...I want them to start trying to win. They haven't tried to win in years.
I've tried to be as specific as possible regarding Jones. He's turned the ball over, shown poor pocket awareness, and not been explosive. The offense did not improve at all when he took over for Eli. If you think Jones is going to be a franchise QB (whatever that means), that's fine - but you can't point to anything concrete. You have to hope he is.
I'm done hoping.
I see a better player in Burrow. He's better in the pocket, he's decisive, and he's dominating the best teams in the best conference in college football. He's probably going to win the Heisman, and he has a decent chance of leading his team to a national championship. I'm admittedly just another asshole at a keyboard, but when I watch him play I see a better QB than Jones is.
If I'm the Giants' new GM and I have the top pick, and my evaluators tell me that Burrow is a superior quarterback to Jones, I'm taking him. It doesn't mean Jones sucks, it just means I'm trying to get better...not hoping.
Tear it all down. Draft Burrow if he's available.
and we need more juice from JonC and hitdog
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In comment 14713463 ryanmkeane said:
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we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
Agree 100%.
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In comment 14713470 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 14713463 ryanmkeane said:
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we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
Agree 100%.
what's to realize?
What exactly have we've received in return for trading JPP and Vernon? the same guys that say
Jerry Reese was so so so bad for the roster
Completely cummed at the idea that DG traded for Ogletree. At least when Jerry paid defensive players they actually produced at above level replacement for their position.
What exactly has this team become once DG gutted it? DG drafted BJ Hill, Dalvin Tomlinson, and then panic traded for Leonard Williams at 2-7 record. Dexter Lawrence has been completely invisible for 9 out of 13 games.
And even when DG had the choice to take the first CB off the board, he took a guy who succeeded at man coverage in college and asked him to play zone to ruin his development.
but yeah, lets have DG overpay LW because he's now a sunk cost.
lets have DG draft another 13 hog mollies
lets have DG trade for more below average first round picks (peppers, ogle tree)
DG is beyond a fucking disaster. He's radioactive nuclear waste that's poisoning this franchise.
HE LET JOHN MARA GET ROBBED BY THE JETS.
Even if 5 young promising executives are interviewed in addition to 6-7 young or veteran HC candidates, wouldn’t the pair who has a conviction towards Jones/Barkley have the upper hand (assuming they have the qualifications for the job)?
It is very bold to change course on QB not even a year after drafting him. Is Burrow a better prospect than Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, Watson & Mahomes? Is he a once in a generation prospect? Has Jones been THAT bad?
There was a lot of preparation & due diligence into the Jones pick. The franchise took massive heat for the conviction, the thought of them changing course not even a year later is hard to believe. I’d be confident there will be prospective GM’s/HC’s who will bring up the excitement to work with Jones & Barkley during the interview process.
Lastly, Mara writes the checks and he agreed to take on massive dead money this year to see this “plan” through. I don’t know how eager he will be to see another premium pick flushed down the toilet for the hope that Burrow’s game translates to the pros.
The idea that someone/anyone hasn't seen enough (or anything) from Daniel Jones is beyond laughable. In the history of the NFL, Jones is the first rookie QB ever with 3 games of 300+ yards passing, 2+ passing TDs, and zero interceptions. (The previous record was only 2 games done by just one rookie named Dak Prescott.)
As a comparison, he's already done this as many times through 10 starts as Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen, and Lamar Jackson have in their 109 starts combined.
The criticism of some of Jones' individual traits seem to willfully ignore the fact he's a rookie involved in the learning process of becoming a NFL QB. That process is only made more difficult with horrendous coaches, horrendous o-line, and skill position players who've been in and out of the lineup. Thankfully, the idea of moving on from Jones to draft Burrow, if available, seems limited to very few people either here, the media, and hopefully none in the front office (now or later).
This next month has the chance to be a turning point.
But you and Peter King are probably right: if a guy says in an interview that he doesn't believe in Daniel Jones he probably isn't getting a second interview.
The idea that someone/anyone hasn't seen enough (or anything) from Daniel Jones is beyond laughable. In the history of the NFL, Jones is the first rookie QB ever with 3 games of 300+ yards passing, 2+ passing TDs, and zero interceptions. (The previous record was only 2 games done by just one rookie named Dak Prescott.)
As a comparison, he's already done this as many times through 10 starts as Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen, and Lamar Jackson have in their 109 starts combined.
The criticism of some of Jones' individual traits seem to willfully ignore the fact he's a rookie involved in the learning process of becoming a NFL QB. That process is only made more difficult with horrendous coaches, horrendous o-line, and skill position players who've been in and out of the lineup. Thankfully, the idea of moving on from Jones to draft Burrow, if available, seems limited to very few people either here, the media, and hopefully none in the front office (now or later).
Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
Who said Jones was untouchable? I certainly didn't. But Joe Burrow isn't a prospect whose availability would demand the Giants toss Jones overboard for.
Rookies QBs have played bad defenses for a long time. No one else has managed to put up the performances Jones has, so it's hardly nothing. I also recall Eli Manning's performances as a rookie against "good" defenses. Thank goodness the Giants didn't use that a pretext to gauge whether or not Eli was "untouchable".
- is playing behind the worst OL in the NFL
- has a complete JOKE of an 'offensive minded' head coach/staff
-Hasn't played ONE single game yet with all of his offensive weapons in the same game due to injury/suspension.
- Has been playing with virtually no running game all season long, between the horrid OL, Barkley not being 100% from the injury, and/or a combo of both.
Oh yeah, and he's a ROOKIE. I'd be SHOCKED if he doesn't at least turn out to be a good NFL QB once we even have a decent coaching staff, OL, running game, and better/healthier weapons for him to throw to in the future. Oh, and of course, once he gets more experience himself, considering he hasn't even played in 16 regular season games yet.
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Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
Who said Jones was untouchable? I certainly didn't. But Joe Burrow isn't a prospect whose availability would demand the Giants toss Jones overboard for.
Rookies QBs have played bad defenses for a long time. No one else has managed to put up the performances Jones has, so it's hardly nothing. I also recall Eli Manning's performances as a rookie against "good" defenses. Thank goodness the Giants didn't use that a pretext to gauge whether or not Eli was "untouchable".
For the sake of argument, if we're talking about statistical records, how does Baker Mayfield look one year after breaking the rookie passing TD record? We're in a different league now than most of the NFL's history of developing quarterbacks. It's not really fair to stack 100 years of league history against what Daniel Jones is doing right now, when it just gets easier and easier to pass the football every year.
Four NFL quarterbacks have a completion percentage above 70 percent this year. 10 quarterbacks have a passer rating over 100.
The game would be unrecognizable to players from even the 90s. And it's not stars doing it. It's nobodies like Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins, and Ryan Tannehill. For some Giants perspective, we all agree Eli Manning's best professional season was 2011, where despite a bad offensive line and no running game, he carried the offense to the playoffs. It was the only season in his career where he averaged 300 yards per game and passed for 4900 yards.
Right now, 16 NFL quarterbacks have a higher passer rating than that season by Eli.
It's a different world than 2004 when Eli Manning was thrown to the wolves and had a 0.0 QB rating against an NFL defense.
For the sake of argument, if we're talking about statistical records, how does Baker Mayfield look one year after breaking the rookie passing TD record? We're in a different league now than most of the NFL's history of developing quarterbacks. It's not really fair to stack 100 years of league history against what Daniel Jones is doing right now, when it just gets easier and easier to pass the football every year.
Four NFL quarterbacks have a completion percentage above 70 percent this year. 10 quarterbacks have a passer rating over 100.
The game would be unrecognizable to players from even the 90s. And it's not stars doing it. It's nobodies like Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins, and Ryan Tannehill. For some Giants perspective, we all agree Eli Manning's best professional season was 2011, where despite a bad offensive line and no running game, he carried the offense to the playoffs. It was the only season in his career where he averaged 300 yards per game and passed for 4900 yards.
Right now, 16 NFL quarterbacks have a higher passer rating than that season by Eli.
It's a different world than 2004 when Eli Manning was thrown to the wolves and had a 0.0 QB rating against an NFL defense.
Then let's not go back that far. As I said in my original post, Jones has managed that statistical combo in a game as many times (three) as all five QBs drafted in the first round of the 2018 draft combined in 90+ less starts. And I'm going to assume the 5 of them have played bad defenses so far. Heck, Allen and Darnold have both played the Giants.
It doesn't mean Jones is Joe Montana's clone. But this idea that he hasn't done/shown anything is simply asinine.
They have rolled over everyone this year and he shredded both Bama and UGA, but there's a reason QB is the position with the highest bust rate - even among guys who are multi-year stand outs from the day they step on campus from high school. 1 year wonders are inherently riskier as prospects - Trubisky and Haskins being the most recent negative examples and Kyler probably being the best positive example.
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
Aaron Rodgers is the exact opposite of a turnover machine.
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Kyler was the first successful 1 year guy in a while. Cam was probably the last guy before that?
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
Playing QB for this team requires more then just gaudy stats.
I don't think Burrow would handle the spotlight here very well.
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I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
A perfect confluence of events over the course of a full season against that level of competition seems entirely impossible. You cant even really relate it to Dwaune Haskins, considering schedule and Haskins' significant experience gap.
With $50 + million in cap this offseason, I don’t trust DG making the right decisions on free agents.
I would really hope Mara grows a set and cleans house this offseason. That includes a change in pro personnel department.
My heart tells me that won’t happen. Let’s see
Then some of you want to sit here and tell us that someone else in the upcoming draft would be a better prospect? Really? We know this how? Because of grading? He would be coming here to play beer the same conditions I referenced above.
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Chris Mara has to go.
I agree, and would add that if Gettleman goes, Chris Mara has to go.
This is the biggest problem though - if the decision is made to retain Gettleman, what's the likelihood that the same justification used to spare Gettleman doesn't also get applied to Mara?
That's the one thing you'd have to hope if the team did hand over the reigns to Rivera, that he comes in and says 'OK, I expect more control over personnel, and that guy (pointing to Mara) needs to spend more time at the stables'.
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ron mexico said:
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Chris Mara has to go.
I agree, and would add that if Gettleman goes, Chris Mara has to go.
This is the biggest problem though - if the decision is made to retain Gettleman, what's the likelihood that the same justification used to spare Gettleman doesn't also get applied to Mara?
That's the one thing you'd have to hope if the team did hand over the reigns to Rivera, that he comes in and says 'OK, I expect more control over personnel, and that guy (pointing to Mara) needs to spend more time at the stables'.
Hopefully internally they have a better idea of who was behind what decision. Given the numerous 180s this team has bald you got a think they’re pulling in opposite directions
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I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
Of course the numbers are different for Burrow from 2018 to 2019. Joe Brady arrived in 2019. An offensive savant who worked under Sean Payton with the Saints.
Look, I get it. I'm the Chairman of the "Careful with the One Hit Wonder Club".
But sometimes the light finally goes on and a player gets it. I think with the arrival of Joe Brady, that's what happened with Burrow this year. And his turnaround was in the SEC against the best competition in the country, not the Big 12 and their various types of swiss cheese.
Forget all of his gaudy numbers, just watch his pocket movements, his ability to stay poised, how he keeps his head up when the pocket collapses, etc. It's good stuff. And those qualities go a long way towards NFL success...
Nada.
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
This is my take as well. I went bananas after his first two starts (and preseason) but reality set in fast. And I’ve seen too many young QBs flame out in similar fashion. Fool me once. I still like jones but nothing should be off the table no matter how painful it might seem. With that said this isn’t josh rosen either. Jones did flash more than a guy like rosen did despite similarly shitty situations. Jones could have played a lot worse this year.