Really tremendous stuff hard hitting stuff from you Jordan. Like Shurmur and hopefully Gettleman, I hope you are relieved from your duties in the off season.
watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
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9m
Pat Shurmur seemed resigned to his fate Monday for first time. Asked if he expects to finish out season, he replied: “Yeah, I do. We’ll just have to wait and see, won’t we.” Then Shurmur cracked a rare joke about being asked the tough questions.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
How long do you wait for DG “to find better balance?”
Another year of Gettleman could set this franchise back 5.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
.
That was his own doing when he handed out that OBJ contract and decided to give it a go and keep Eli another year.
i love how fans act like they know the behind the scenes. EVERYONE in giants front office gave OBJ that contract. DG didnt do it quietly in the night. they all agreed then clearly something happened that we arent aware of and they felt it was best to part ways. i am not sure why DG gets blamed for everything here. the guy has had two solid drafts and gave us a franchise QB. time will tell but he needs more time.
Mara's? Because although you would think a coach with a record like Shurmer's is going to get fired, unless we hear that from John Mara, who knows what they'll do.
And I doubt Gettleman is gone. He still has two or three stupid trades in him.
RE: I'd been in Gettlemans corner until last night...... Â
watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
every team “has a running back”. It’s the easiest position in the league to fill.
on BUT, there seems to suddenly be a lot of leaks and stories coming out (from other areas outside NY) about the Gmen and what they might be doing this off season.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
.
That was his own doing when he handed out that OBJ contract and decided to give it a go and keep Eli another year.
i love how fans act like they know the behind the scenes. EVERYONE in giants front office gave OBJ that contract. DG didnt do it quietly in the night. they all agreed then clearly something happened that we arent aware of and they felt it was best to part ways. i am not sure why DG gets blamed for everything here. the guy has had two solid drafts and gave us a franchise QB. time will tell but he needs more time.
BleedBlue. Your right, we don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes. But we do know that OBJ had another year left on his contract and DG would tell anyone that would listen that they didn't sign him to trade him. So if he didn't play a big part in giving him that extension, he certainly has some accountability. Back to the point that when you said he had all of this dead cap money. He traded away Vernon, Snacks, OBJ, gave Steward and Omameh those deals. All contributions to the dead cap money.
watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
I'll give you Olgetree but Mayo wasn't signed to be a starter. Connelly earned the job before he got hurt. And also Solder isn't the answer - he's also playing on one leg. Blame Gettleman on a lot of things but the injuries aren't his fault.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
.
That was his own doing when he handed out that OBJ contract and decided to give it a go and keep Eli another year.
i love how fans act like they know the behind the scenes. EVERYONE in giants front office gave OBJ that contract. DG didnt do it quietly in the night. they all agreed then clearly something happened that we arent aware of and they felt it was best to part ways. i am not sure why DG gets blamed for everything here. the guy has had two solid drafts and gave us a franchise QB. time will tell but he needs more time.
BleedBlue. Your right, we don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes. But we do know that OBJ had another year left on his contract and DG would tell anyone that would listen that they didn't sign him to trade him. So if he didn't play a big part in giving him that extension, he certainly has some accountability. Back to the point that when you said he had all of this dead cap money. He traded away Vernon, Snacks, OBJ, gave Steward and Omameh those deals. All contributions to the dead cap money.
OBJ played the part. he showed up and did what was asked. they extended him. then maybe he was a douchebag. i dunno....maybe he went on tv and said he wasnt sure about the place that just gave him 100mill. maybe he did something like that? i dunno.
on BUT, there seems to suddenly be a lot of leaks and stories coming out (from other areas outside NY) about the Gmen and what they might be doing this off season.
Pay attention, it's only just begun.
RE: RE: I'd been in Gettlemans corner until last night...... Â
watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
I'll give you Olgetree but Mayo wasn't signed to be a starter. Connelly earned the job before he got hurt. And also Solder isn't the answer - he's also playing on one leg. Blame Gettleman on a lot of things but the injuries aren't his fault.
The OBJ deal is interesting as it seems like there are many stories about PS wanting Beckham and that is why he ended up with a new contract. FYI- The Browns didn't tarde for OBJ to get rid of him after one year either but, it sure could be headed that way. I say we not use that deal as some sort of beacon of mismanagement as BBI alone was so fucking divided on OBJ that you can imagine Giants Management and Ownership was probably struggling just as much...
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
and with Caserio prying free that could be the impetus to 'nudge' Gettleman into retirement.
Also bringing in Caserio may bring McDaniels along with him. Not saying I agree with this approach but the organization would love to attempt to replicate the Pats system.
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
What coach will they get with DSG at the helm? (Yes, I am calling him DSG because he has earned the moniker.) If coaches are reluctant to work with the guy, either because they want some level of control over "the groceries" or because they view him as a guy who may be out in a year (and thus vulnerable themselves), it won't work. I think the Giants may let DSG go out of necessity to get the coach they want.
And for all you people who consistently say that we as laypersons don't know as much as GMs or coaches, well, I think we would run the Giants differently. This should go to show you that just because these guys are in these positions doesn't mean they are infallible (or in Shurmur's or DSG's cases, even good at their jobs).
In comment 14712425 Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) said:
Quote:
and bring Nick Caserio in with him!!
How many coaches and GM's need to leave the Patriots and fail at their next stop before people get it through their thick heads that its all Bill Belichick there?
I doubt Gettleman is going anywhere. Its nice to want someone fired until you have to replace them. Its not easy to find good GM's. You're more than likely stuck with Gettleman for another season unless a viable candidate appears, which is unlikely.
RE: RE: It can only be looked at as mismanagement Â
You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
He's 68 years old. He's a finished product as a human being; these are his methods.
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
For what it is worth, Kiper was just on ESPN and said - literally - that he has watched every Daniel Jones throw this year, and he is confident that the the Giants have found their next franchise QB. Could he be wrong? Sure. But take that for what it is worth.
Even with a new GM, I do not see the Giants dumping Jones like the Cards did with Rosen. Especially if they are sitting there with a chance to grab Chase Young.
You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
Have they? The proof appears to be in the pudding: they're the worst team in the league over the past 3 seasons.
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
Have they? The proof appears to be in the pudding: they're the worst team in the league over the past 3 seasons.
ok? shit happens dude. this year was a learning year for jones...did you expect to win?
the last three years we were dealing with a declinging, aging QB and this year a rookie.
it happens....teams go through this shit. hopefully jones is that guy and we get out of it. you are just miserable and dont like a single thing the giants do. i really think you should go root for another team man so you can smile some
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
Someone would have traded for him. He'd been a top 3 WR for years. Easy to say nobody would have traded for him, but that's not true.
And if he did "act like a good citizen", and the front office fell for it, then that's STILL on them if you don't know the player you've had in your building for 4 years. Either way, it's on the front office, ownership included.
FWIW, I think the two biggest failures on the coaching staff are Betcher and the OL coach.
These are the units that are making the same mistakes over and over week in and week out. The things Balldinger keeps saying CAN'T HAPPEN. Sure the back 7 have only one quality starter, a bunch of kids, and some old retreads, but these players don't work in this scheme. And it's not clear Betcher has tried to modify it to fit what he has.
Similarly, the still-in-progress OL rebuild consists of two keepers and 3 JAGs, and like the D, they have no clue what they're supposed to be doing either. As Balldinger says: This shouldn't be happening. They've been playing with each other all year. None of them are rookies. WTF are they being coached to do? Or NOT coached to do.
Not EVERYONE on the OL or the back 7 on D can be brainless idiots. The law of averages alone would dictate otherwise.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
Yeah but how was that dead money handicapping him? He still made difficult to defend FA acquisitions that likely would have occurred regardless of cap space.
Hell, maybe the contracts he doled out would have been even sillier with more cap space.
and I will admit that while I'm not completely in Gettleman's corner at this juncture, I also don't think that he's totally lost touch here. There are some pieces that can be a building block, including getting a QB in Jones who looks to have a future.
I was never sold on Shurmur. I thought he was brought here similar to an interim CEO during a bankruptcy to keep the lights on until things got sorted out and then moved on. Turns out he's now contributing to the bankruptcy because the Giants expectation is that the team would play better for him as the season moves along and win games. They haven't done that. We've seen the 2nd year guys all regress. This will cost him his job.
But if you are Mara, and you try to pull yourself away from the emotion, games are won and lost in the 4th quarter in the NFL. It has always been that way. And games are won there thanks to coaching and talent, and I'd argue that coaching might well be more important to make the in game adjustments to put your team in position to win. You can't tell me the Eagle had better talent on the field than the Giants last night. They didn't. They were probably actually worse. Pederson coached circles around Shurmur and confused him on when to take time outs. It was almost childish.
Let's look at the scores going into/early the 4th quarter of games since the Vikings game. All of which, as we know, the Giants lost
- @ Patriots- down 7
- vs Cardinals- down 3
- @ Lions- down 5
- vs Cowboys- down 1
- @ Jets- up 3
- @ Bears- down 12
- vs. Packers- down 4
- @ Eagles- up 7
So that's 8 games and 8 losses where the Giants were within 1 score either way, and the Bears game in which was still within reach.
John Madden used to say winning is a great deodorant. You can make the argument that the roster was good enough to win because they were in all these games. That they lost all of them points to coaching.
A. A gm candidate they really love or
B. They hire a Coach that wants personel control to work with Abrams and DG slides into an executive role till he retires.
On one hand, I like his drafts and I like that he had his convictions and stuck to them. On the other hand, I think his FA acquisitions have been terrible, his trades leave a lot of questions (not necessarily all bad, but there is a lot of room for examination).
I don't think he is bad, but I would not be opposed to a complete overhaul, including him and his staff. They have shown no propensity for being able to evaluate OL (college or pro), for example. Dooes anyone really have confidence that he will get the OL right this offseason from the draft or FA perspective? I sure don't.
DG has made some bad calls on player evaluation, but it's not like every move the Giants have made over the course of the last 5 years had been bad.
Dumping Odell - good move
Dumping OV - good move
Not signing LC to a massive contract - good move
Getting Zeitler - good move
Getting Barkley (maybe you over drafted him) - good move
I think you're basing your conclusion that Jones is no good on the fact that this particular management group has F'ed up a bunch of stuff and therefore can't get anything right.
It's a dark time and hard to be a fan of this team because, like you said, they are the worst team in football and have been for 3 years now. BUT - what little good light there is, let it shine bro. The hope is there that Jones will be a keeper.
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
The average margin of victory most years in the NFL is less than a TD.
The vast majority of games are close, by design. Not getting the doors blown off by opponents just means the Giants are statistically in the realm of really bad, not wildly awful.
Was drafting Barkley over Nelson a good move?
Was dumping OBJ post contract extension and eating dead money a good move?
Was not being able to trade LC for anything a good move?
Was drafting Barkley over Nelson a good move?
Was dumping OBJ post contract extension and eating dead money a good move?
Was not being able to trade LC for anything a good move?
These good moves are debatable.
the OBJ move is not debatable AT ALL. cleveland will be lucky to get a third rounder for him if he keeps this shit up.
we will prob get a third round comp pick for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT we had better offers, plus the giants were probably going to tag him but things change. obj was probably in the giants plans long term hence the signing, then he goes on tv and talks shit about the franchise who just gave him 100 mill....things change and it was best to ship him out.
hindsight is perfect vision on the draft thing. barkley is a stud of a player and will be much better with a coach who can utilize him...
was given total autonomy to rebuild this roster. I feel he was given orders to not draft a QB in 2018 and to try to add pieces around Eli for one more run. I also feel that completely flipped this year and he was told to bring in next QB no matter what.
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
But why sign a guy to a max deal who is unable to fully participate? This stuff with his ankle & elbow has been limiting him from the second he got here. Damaged goods.
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
It's hard to imagine the Giants won't need several more good players and a better staff to be the 7-8 more win team required to get to the playoffs.
Maybe a better staff gets the Giants from dreadful to just bad. But that's a lousy goal.
Mara and Tisch need to build a plan for a championship, not just getting off the mat.
That’s what I meant. If we are counting being within reach of catching up to the Cardinals, Lions, and Bears in the 4th as a sign our roster isn’t terrible.... I don’t know. Feels like we are ready to settle big time.
Agree to disagree. The OBJ move is debatable. We took a big dead money hit for him, and I’m not sure the return was great. Also, I’m certain the absence of OBJ and having to scheme for him, hurt Barkley big time this season.
His drama being off the team is a plus, and his contract being off the books will be a plus. Hence, why I didn’t outright call it terrible. But it’s certainly debatable.
Appears to be getting rocky. With his recent public comments, sounds like Tisch would favor a clean sweep including Gettleman. You have to know that Mara will want to keep Gettleman and hire Rivera or someone similar. They may be 50/50 on paper, but I doubt Mara considers Tisch his equal wrt football operations. Another poster noted leaks coming out from non-NY reporters. Someone inside could be seeding public opinion and not wanting it to be traced back to them.
as I read this, what I think is going on, is that Mara/Tisch are revisiting the George Young org structure (Owners own the team, GMs pick the players, coaches coach the players, and players play...everyone stays in their sandbox) and now changing it up.
This means that for the RIGHT candidate who requires full control of football operations, the Giants will now entertain it in a way that they have not in 40 years.
If the Giants are going to go for a Ron Rivera, then Gettleman stays.
If the Giants are going to try to go after a Lincoln Riley, Matt Rhule, or Jim Harbaugh (as examples), who won't come in the door for an interview unless they have that control, maybe they decide that is the right move and Gettleman has to go or gets demoted or whatever.
just what about Jones makes you think he isn't capable of running this team? Fumbles are correctable and most will go away with a better oline. Aside from that, he looks pretty damn good.
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
just what about Jones makes you think he isn't capable of running this team? Fumbles are correctable and most will go away with a better oline. Aside from that, he looks pretty damn good.
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
Aaron Rodgers is a walking turnover machine? What?
The numbers don't say that Daniel Jones looks pretty damn good. They don't say that at all.
He’s shown enough on the field and has all the intangible stuff they want in New York.
We can talk about it all we want. My personal view is a new front office should be allowed to do whatever they think is best. But that is not how the Giants are run.
I would put the chances of actually drafting another QB and moving on from Jones at literally 0%. It will not happen. That kind of move is an ownership decision, ownership is not going to push the kid out.
To be honest I think the Giants are in line with most of the league in this regard. Quarterback is too high profile and too important for most owners to remain hands off. I’m not even sure Belichick has final say over QB, by all accounts Brady has a lot of pull with Kraft and may have already been retained primarily because Kraft intervened.
was given total autonomy to rebuild this roster. I feel he was given orders to not draft a QB in 2018 and to try to add pieces around Eli for one more run. I also feel that completely flipped this year and he was told to bring in next QB no matter what.
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
What is this meme that everything revolved around Manning? That notion has taken hold here despite evidence to the contrary.
If anything, the plan was to turn the Giants into the 2017 Vikings who led the league in rushing behind a move-the-chains-passer who never threw the ball past 15 yards and a stout defense. If you will recall, the OC of that team was one Pat Shurmur.
So, we kept the 100 million in defensive players from the McAdoo era, there was all this talk of "hog mollies", Hernandez, a supposed mauler, was drafted, we spend the #2 pick on a rb, trade up for Lauletta, a Keenum clone, installed Halapio, a larger center than Richburg, and install Shurmur's Andy Reid circa Eagles offense to which Manning is ill-suited. Do those sound like moves centering on Manning?
It didn't work out. Shurmur turned out to be a dunce and every bit the failure he was in Cleveland (a continuing trend this season), the defense wasn't good enough to sustain a running-based offense, OBJ hated the nickel and dime offense, got hurt and then decided it was not worth his time and trouble to keep playing, Lauletta turned out to be a complete bust not worth putting out on the field.
So, time to double down. Get rid of the defensive players who failed you for pennies on the dollar, get Zeitler, get Remmers (who came from surprise, that Minnesota team), get rid of OBJ who was extraneous to the run-run-short pass vision anyway, get Tate, a supposed move-the-chains guy, you still had the rb, spend the 6th pick of the draft on a Super-Keenum and off you go. Does any of that sound Manning-centric?
Well here we are. Unfortunately, none of it worked out. You still had the boob as a HC, the second year guys you were counting on to fulfill the vision had bad years, the defense was a sieve which sent the running game based vision out the window, and super-Keenum turned out to be closer to the real Case Keenum than anticipated.
I think Gettleman had a vision; I do not think it was Manning-centric at all, and I think Shurmur's total incompetence and Gettleman's impatience wrecked it or at least prevented its enactment.
Jones hasn't done anything to deserve being on scholarship with ownership.
Jones was not particularly good this year. That's a fact. I like him and I think he can play, but thinking he can play is no reason for ownership to require that he be the QB going forward.
If we hire someone to run the show and they think Jones should be the QB, I'm fine moving forward with him. But the new guy(s) have to decide that...not Mara. And I suspect, based on his level of play and the potential opportunity to draft Burrow, that a new guy may want to pursue Burrow.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
you have the benfit of hindsight.
first off bethea, stewart, omameh signings didnt stop us from getting anyone else....they were stop gaps and roster fillers.
solder was a quality LT at time of signing
keeping manning on the books? so you just cut a two time super bowl champion because you drafted a rookie? the plan was eli plays out his contract(he EARNED that) and jones takes over after him...thats not a bad move by DG lol
Agree to disagree. The OBJ move is debatable. We took a big dead money hit for him, and I’m not sure the return was great. Also, I’m certain the absence of OBJ and having to scheme for him, hurt Barkley big time this season.
His drama being off the team is a plus, and his contract being off the books will be a plus. Hence, why I didn’t outright call it terrible. But it’s certainly debatable.
His picks are starting to show up. Only two years in. If next year they all fall flat then you have an argument.
There is a chance the 2019 draft may yield 5 starters which would be an epic success.
Are they only starters on an awful team? Or would they legitimately be starters on other teams? I'm not convinced that 5 players from the 2019 class are starters on other teams.
if his presence prevents quality HC's from being interested.
In addition all his pubic statements about building a roster ready to compete have blown up in his face (that's an understatement). He's at retirement age anyway. When you have worked in a competitive environment for 50 yrs, it a rare person that when they turn 70, can keep functioning at their highest level.
Were very very high on Jones in predraft processes. So if the Pats braintrust or members of that group come here as a GM or HC there’s no assumption they’ll want to jettison Jones.
He’s a rookie, he’s played like a rookie. I would say he’s played pretty damn well overall on a bad team with bad coaching. John Mara probably loves the kid and has no real reason to move on based on what we’ve seen. He’s certainly had a better year than Rosen did as a rookie since everyone likes to cite the Cardinals decision to move on immediately.
If a new exec came in and said listen, Jones is ok but Burrow is literally Peyton Manning 2.0, he might get Mara’s attention but I don’t think anyone can plausibly make that case, certainly not strongly enough to get the Giants to move on it.
Burrow has had a tremendous year on a great team, but I don’t think many talent evaluators are going to bang on the table for this kid and say you have to draft him he’s the future of the NFL when you have a young QB in house. If he’s only marginally better than Jones it’s a mistake to move on from Jones for Burrow. If he’s the same or worse it’s very big mistake and a huge missed opportunity to improve elsewhere.
Can you say definitively that he’s better? What’s the most likely outcome? It’s very hard for me to believe that the most likely scenario is that Burrow is a much better pro than Jones.
They’ll keep Jones and draft another piece. Hopefully Chase Young, if not him someone else.
he seems pretty capable at drafting players, he just sucks at every other part of being a GM. I wish we could reduce his role to picking players in the draft and that's it.
Jones hasn't done anything to deserve being on scholarship with ownership.
Jones was not particularly good this year. That's a fact. I like him and I think he can play, but thinking he can play is no reason for ownership to require that he be the QB going forward.
If we hire someone to run the show and they think Jones should be the QB, I'm fine moving forward with him. But the new guy(s) have to decide that...not Mara. And I suspect, based on his level of play and the potential opportunity to draft Burrow, that a new guy may want to pursue Burrow.
I want to emphasize that with a new regime, they should be making the decisions on their own. We are an awful team. We aren't good enough to have any sacred cows. Every single player should be judged by the new staff with zero influence by ownership. They can all go to slaughter. We are more than capable losing without them.
Here's the question any incoming GM/head coach is going to have to ask about Jones: "Assuming he doesn't get hurt, in 2 years am I going to want to pay him $40M a year for 4 years?"
That's what happened with Goff and Wentz. It's about to happen with Prescott.
If the answer to that question is not an immediate and resounding "YES!", then going in a different direction at QB has to be an option on the table.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
how is the good trade of OBJ offset by the dead cap hit which is going ot be gone? we got at least two solid players out of it and OBJ is a jerkoff who already wants out of cleveland. we WON that trade BY A WIDE MARGIN unless OBJ turns it around and peppers, lawerence, ximenes all fail. how this isnt a slam dunk high five to gettleman at this point is just laughable and shows the bias and hate for him.
i love the not trading so and so was a mistake. it TAKES TWO TEAMS. do you understyand that? do you understand if they dont get the value, they dont make the move. collins is going to get the giants a 3 anyways and they were probably going to tag him anyways until he bitched and they decided against it. this isnt madden guys, shit is fluid. things change day to day.
This is a crucial time for this franchise. They need to change their ways. If Caserio is really available this offseason the Giants need to do whatever it takes to land him.
RE: That certainly wouldn’t fit the narrative about the Mara s Â
Espoused by many here even though they did exactly that after 2017!
Not entirely. In 2017, the GM who was let go had already survived one full coaching staff changeover. This would be a stunning change of SOP for Mara.
I'll believe it when I see it, and I'll champion it if it comes with a genuine effort to embrace new voices and real change. But I'm skeptical that this is at all likely until proven otherwise.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
Enough already - HE CREATED THE MAJORITY OF THAT DEAD MONEY!
And citing a dismissal of data as a positive is absolutely absurd. DG is a fucking liability, and his instincts are brutal. He should trust common sense instead.
His picks are starting to show up. Only two years in. If next year they all fall flat then you have an argument.
You mean like last year's picks, who are already falling flat? Or does he keep getting a tack-on year for every rookie class that looks promising while the ADHD segment of the fanbase fellates themselves over the potential of guys who haven't failed yet?
You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
Khalil Mack was traded without a long-term deal in place and the Raiders got more in return for him than the Giants did for Beckham. Some of that is positional value - something that DG would never subscribe to anyway - but clearly Mack's contract status wasn't an insurmountable drag on his trade value.
i love the not trading so and so was a mistake. it TAKES TWO TEAMS. do you understyand that? do you understand if they dont get the value, they dont make the move. collins is going to get the giants a 3 anyways and they were probably going to tag him anyways until he bitched and they decided against it. this isnt madden guys, shit is fluid. things change day to day.
Well, per Eric, there was at least one deal on the table for Engram, before this year's trade deadline, and DG wouldn't budge despite staring at first round comp. For a player who has spent a lot of time on the sideline and is becoming less and less dependable, you have to make that move.
And there was definitely a market last year for LC but it appeared DG had a price tag on LC that was too high. Assuming it was the Chiefs third, that was a better third than the compensation pick.
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
Don't torture yourself. This "we were close until ______________" is a 70's era argument. Bad teams contrive ways to lose games. Close scores don't mean anything; they are still bad teams.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
Nelson was never a realistic alternative to Barkley according to all reports. It was Barkley or Darnold.
was given total autonomy to rebuild this roster. I feel he was given orders to not draft a QB in 2018 and to try to add pieces around Eli for one more run. I also feel that completely flipped this year and he was told to bring in next QB no matter what.
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
What is this meme that everything revolved around Manning? That notion has taken hold here despite evidence to the contrary.
If anything, the plan was to turn the Giants into the 2017 Vikings who led the league in rushing behind a move-the-chains-passer who never threw the ball past 15 yards and a stout defense. If you will recall, the OC of that team was one Pat Shurmur.
So, we kept the 100 million in defensive players from the McAdoo era, there was all this talk of "hog mollies", Hernandez, a supposed mauler, was drafted, we spend the #2 pick on a rb, trade up for Lauletta, a Keenum clone, installed Halapio, a larger center than Richburg, and install Shurmur's Andy Reid circa Eagles offense to which Manning is ill-suited. Do those sound like moves centering on Manning?
It didn't work out. Shurmur turned out to be a dunce and every bit the failure he was in Cleveland (a continuing trend this season), the defense wasn't good enough to sustain a running-based offense, OBJ hated the nickel and dime offense, got hurt and then decided it was not worth his time and trouble to keep playing, Lauletta turned out to be a complete bust not worth putting out on the field.
So, time to double down. Get rid of the defensive players who failed you for pennies on the dollar, get Zeitler, get Remmers (who came from surprise, that Minnesota team), get rid of OBJ who was extraneous to the run-run-short pass vision anyway, get Tate, a supposed move-the-chains guy, you still had the rb, spend the 6th pick of the draft on a Super-Keenum and off you go. Does any of that sound Manning-centric?
Well here we are. Unfortunately, none of it worked out. You still had the boob as a HC, the second year guys you were counting on to fulfill the vision had bad years, the defense was a sieve which sent the running game based vision out the window, and super-Keenum turned out to be closer to the real Case Keenum than anticipated.
I think Gettleman had a vision; I do not think it was Manning-centric at all, and I think Shurmur's total incompetence and Gettleman's impatience wrecked it or at least prevented its enactment.
.....in his first five years, the results were not that great. In fact, you could make the case those years were poor (except for drafting LT, and Phil Simms - who was hurt a ton in that time period).
Fast forward to DG's first two years as GM with NYG. Now, as people have stated, different era, free agency exists, etc. meaning turnaround time is expected to be quicker But I'm equating his first two years to GY's first five, and the results are similar, and of course don't look good.
But DG has a track record (like GY) and drafted a QB who looks the part (like GY).
I think Shurmur should be canned and GM allowed to pick another HC, and get a third year of drafting and free agency.
But the team needs to make a move next year - significant - for DG to keep his job.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
Nelson was never a realistic alternative to Barkley according to all reports. It was Barkley or Darnold.
Also, I'm with bw on Jones. I have seen a lot of things to make me optimistic. But, I don't get the blind faith that the fumbles will just be corrected. The problem here is the OL. How do you properly gauge Jones with this OL. This is not unlike the criticism for drafting Barkley without addressing the OL.
Now, the OL is still terrible. But, Gettleman (and Shurmer?) thought it was fixed. They thought Solder was the anchor LT for at least the next few years, that Hernandez was a road grader LG, Setiler was a top OG, and Remmers would solidify the right side. I have no clue to this day what they could be thinking about Halapio other than he is big. He NEVER showed anything to be optimistic about.
Solder we should have known better about. Anyone the Patriots let walk should be ignored. They have had uncanny success determining when it is time to move on from players. Even if it was 1 year early (not the case here), you can almost certainly count on that guy regressing badly. Hernandez showed flashes last year and there was reason for optimism. However, with Solder regressing and Halapio sucking, he is still a young OL left to his own devices a lot of the time and he isn't the road grader we expected. Halapio just flat out sucks and, to me, the biggest problem on the OL. We are constantly getting defenders in the backfield from the A gaps on running and passing plays. Zeitler has been solid, but he is hardly a top OG in the league...and that is the best we have to offer. Remmers has been even worse than Solder, if that is possible.
So, where does that leave us? One, in desparate need of a new OL coach because there is no development of young players, improvement from week to week, etc. Two, we have Barkley with the talent to be a top 5 RB in the league getting deemed a bust by some here because he can't take a handoff without 2-3 guys immediately in the backfield. We look like we will be wasting his best years health-wise; we may never see him at his fullest potential again. Similarly, we have a promising young QB who has gotten manhandled by constant and ridiculous pressure. While he has not seemed rattled, it is hard to gauge how he projects moving forward and hard to imagine that these beatings won't have a lasting effect.
To me, a lot of this also comes down to coaching from HC, to OC, to QB coach (or lack thereof), to OL coach, to RB coach, to DL, DC, etc. The entire staff should be fired. Gettleman, I am not sold one way or the other, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if he were fired. I just don't have confidence in the ownership hiring a legit GM in his stead.
Here's the question any incoming GM/head coach is going to have to ask about Jones: "Assuming he doesn't get hurt, in 2 years am I going to want to pay him $40M a year for 4 years?"
That's what happened with Goff and Wentz. It's about to happen with Prescott.
If the answer to that question is not an immediate and resounding "YES!", then going in a different direction at QB has to be an option on the table.
Honestly how have the "next big thing" QBs looked? They've all shown flashes of greatness certainly, but also been pretty meh. Injuries are certainly a factor (Wentz, Mahomes this season), but everyone who's supposed to come take the torch from Brady/Brees/Rodgers hasn't. And just look at last year's #1, after all the hype he generated compared to what he's done (and the Brown's on general) this year.
It's far too soon to say if DJ8 is the franchise QB. All the young QBs seem to be volatile. If a new GM wants his own QB he should be allowed to have his own QB.
That said even with a new GM I think Jones will be the QB through next season
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
It's hard to imagine the Giants won't need several more good players and a better staff to be the 7-8 more win team required to get to the playoffs.
Maybe a better staff gets the Giants from dreadful to just bad. But that's a lousy goal.
Mara and Tisch need to build a plan for a championship, not just getting off the mat.
I think you mean the new GM needs to build the plan. Mara and Tisch have no clue.
They offered a bit contract.....the Giants just offered more.
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
Do we know that? Or do we know that Solder's agent leaked that? Does the Patriots typical behavior regarding aging vets who are starting to show their first cracks toward decline tell you that they definitely wanted him back at a price that was anywhere near what the Giants paid?
I think a lot of fans are taking some info that was strategically placed by NS's agent and believing it as gospel. Resigning Solder would have been a bit out of character for the Patriots, though I wouldn't put it past them to drive the price up to benefit their own comp pick situation.
bw....there were reports of offers for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT there were. plus, is it not possible giants planned to tag him, but he bitched and they were like okay, let him walk. this happened AFTER the trade deadline.
engram having offers for him is also just "reports" and frankly he is very talented player and i am sure they wanted jones to have some explosive players.
the biggest problem on this board is we take reports as fact and use hindsight in our arguments.
AT THE TIME. solder was the right move
AT THE TIME. obj was part of the plans
AT THE TIME. they felt collins was in the future plans or maybe worth more than a 3rd
we dont have a ton of information to go off of and i get we like to cry because we are depressed giant fans who are rooting for a losing team, but we shouldnt skew the reality saying there were "reports"
We as a forum dont have a good inside view of what goes on. we judge after there is a clear picture. you can pick apart EVERY GM IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME for bad moves. I think we should probably stick to just rooting for the team like fans instead of arguing EVERY move. sure DG has fucked up, we know this. He also has had two solid drafts....nobody wants to talk about those tho
Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
bw....there were reports of offers for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT there were. plus, is it not possible giants planned to tag him, but he bitched and they were like okay, let him walk. this happened AFTER the trade deadline.
engram having offers for him is also just "reports" and frankly he is very talented player and i am sure they wanted jones to have some explosive players.
the biggest problem on this board is we take reports as fact and use hindsight in our arguments.
AT THE TIME. solder was the right move
AT THE TIME. obj was part of the plans
AT THE TIME. they felt collins was in the future plans or maybe worth more than a 3rd
we dont have a ton of information to go off of and i get we like to cry because we are depressed giant fans who are rooting for a losing team, but we shouldnt skew the reality saying there were "reports"
We as a forum dont have a good inside view of what goes on. we judge after there is a clear picture. you can pick apart EVERY GM IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME for bad moves. I think we should probably stick to just rooting for the team like fans instead of arguing EVERY move. sure DG has fucked up, we know this. He also has had two solid drafts....nobody wants to talk about those tho
You seem to be posting a lot more frequently lately. Maybe McL has a valid point.
Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
They offered a bit contract.....the Giants just offered more.
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
Solder made a passing comment the offers were close, and there was speculation in the Boston media the Pats weren't offering significant guaranteed money.
The Pats had a number of mechanisms to ensure he stayed, instead they let him walk and then won a Super Bowl with his replacement.
The Pats, a team in championship window, had the patience to let it play out. The Giants, a team at the bottom of the barrel didn't.
There is no single action that epitomizes the difference between a winner and a loser than the Nate Solder deal.
Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
It depends on who is available. There were not a lot of good options available when we hired Shurmur. I say keep Gettleman and hire Rivera, who is at worst a highly competent coach, upgrade the pro scouting department (hopefully this will lead to better FA moves).
You would want to see the arrow pointing up with regards to the young players. You keep referencing the 2018 draft, but you can actually make the argument that all of those draftees have regressed in year 2.
I don't see how Shurmus survives this disaster of a season
Belcher is no better the staff needs to go period now
many here feel DG should go as well granted he has three
Free agent disasters . The biggest being Nate Soldier I don't
think anyone thought he would fall off a cliff . Remmers
was a stopgap signing who is pretty much shot .
On the other hand Marcus Golden has been outstanding and
he hustles . I feel his drafts have been pretty solid even
the Patriots have had some pretty poor draft picks .
My question is who would be and adequate replacement
for him they don't grow on trees .
Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
I expected a former scout to be able to correctly assess the talent level of his roster and map out his strategy accordingly. I expected a professional who knows how roster construction and cap economics work. I expected a negotiator who places a value on each transaction and walks when he doesn't get his price. I expected a GM who doesn't get bent over like fresh fish in Attica every time he makes a trade.
Would that be a fair starting point?
RE: RE: I'd been in Gettlemans corner until last night...... Â
watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
every team “has a running back”. It’s the easiest position in the league to fill.
Myth. Not every team has a great running back. Not even close actually. And the teams that do run well are doing so because of coaching, qb play and OL.
Imagine having a great rb within a great system and qb... try it out.
If the giants ever become a good team again, Barkley will be everyone’s favorite player. He’s the engine.
Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
I expected a former scout to be able to correctly assess the talent level of his roster and map out his strategy accordingly. I expected a professional who knows how roster construction and cap economics work. I expected a negotiator who places a value on each transaction and walks when he doesn't get his price. I expected a GM who doesn't get bent over like fresh fish in Attica every time he makes a trade.
Would that be a fair starting point?
youre right to expect competency. I just think DG gets a lot of heat thats misplaced. Im not in love with the job he has done, but his drafts have been solid and im eager to see how they turn out. We also dont know what he is up against, Mara could have made it clear one last run with eli so Dg did whaetver he could to throw some vets around him to try and win. now, we have a franchise QB, a solid RB, a ton of youth especially in the secondary. with another offseason, he can continue to shape the roster. i think the DG hate is probably premature, it takes time to undo the shit show that was the reese roster. thats a guy who didnt draft well at all for 6 straight years outside of the first round or two
The amount of blind support for this guy is baffling to me. He is really bad at his job and the game has passed him by. He is terrible about asset allocation which is of most important with a hard capped sporty.
No more half measures. The people that want Shurmur fired and not DG are clueless. How do you expect to hire the right coach if all it’s going to take for one more likely bad season then you fire the GM and saddle him with a coach he didn’t pick?
That’s what the Jets do. The giants need to fire both. Get a football opp guy in to pick his own coach and go from there.
Agree to disagree. The OBJ move is debatable. We took a big dead money hit for him, and I’m not sure the return was great. Also, I’m certain the absence of OBJ and having to scheme for him, hurt Barkley big time this season.
His drama being off the team is a plus, and his contract being off the books will be a plus. Hence, why I didn’t outright call it terrible. But it’s certainly debatable.
Not debatable at all. We sold high in this case!
DG outright bamboozled Cleveland GM whippersnapper with his analytics.
The amount of blind support for this guy is baffling to me. He is really bad at his job and the game has passed him by. He is terrible about asset allocation which is of most important with a hard capped sporty.
No more half measures. The people that want Shurmur fired and not DG are clueless. How do you expect to hire the right coach if all it’s going to take for one more likely bad season then you fire the GM and saddle him with a coach he didn’t pick?
That’s what the Jets do. The giants need to fire both. Get a football opp guy in to pick his own coach and go from there.
Hiring wco weenie coaches with laminated sheets in their face is a baffling pattern that precedes DG.
RE: RE: RE: I'd been in Gettlemans corner until last night...... Â
watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
every team “has a running back”. It’s the easiest position in the league to fill.
Myth. Not every team has a great running back. Not even close actually. And the teams that do run well are doing so because of coaching, qb play and OL.
Imagine having a great rb within a great system and qb... try it out.
If the giants ever become a good team again, Barkley will be everyone’s favorite player. He’s the engine.
Not if they don't actually get good for another 3-4 years.
Here's the question any incoming GM/head coach is going to have to ask about Jones: "Assuming he doesn't get hurt, in 2 years am I going to want to pay him $40M a year for 4 years?"
That's what happened with Goff and Wentz. It's about to happen with Prescott.
If the answer to that question is not an immediate and resounding "YES!", then going in a different direction at QB has to be an option on the table.
Honestly how have the "next big thing" QBs looked? They've all shown flashes of greatness certainly, but also been pretty meh. Injuries are certainly a factor (Wentz, Mahomes this season), but everyone who's supposed to come take the torch from Brady/Brees/Rodgers hasn't. And just look at last year's #1, after all the hype he generated compared to what he's done (and the Brown's on general) this year.
It's far too soon to say if DJ8 is the franchise QB. All the young QBs seem to be volatile. If a new GM wants his own QB he should be allowed to have his own QB.
That said even with a new GM I think Jones will be the QB through next season
"The next big thing" QBs includes Daniel Jones...he was picked #6 overall as the central building block for the organization. Now usually you don't get a shot at picking a better QB prospect a year after you just picked a QB, but the Giants are actually going to be a worse team this year, and there is a better prospect available in Burrow. It's an unusual situation.
I think an objective evaluation of Jones v. Burrow has Burrow the better prospect. If that's the case, I think you have to pick Burrow if he's available to you.
I'm just taking the value of the position angle...not specific players.
I could have lived with a QB, Edge, OL...
I would not have been happy with any of the top 4 QBs at #2. This is not revisionist history, before I am accused of it, but shortly before the draft I was on record aas saying I would draft Barkley OR trade down and my target to trade down was Jackson. I said he might end up the best QB of the bunch and was incorrectly being held out of the top group. That was more an indictment of the other 4 than anything else, but I thought he had the least worries/risks. And, to take a QB, I'd rather have extra picks and Jackson than Darnold, for example, at #2.
That said, I don't think Jackson would have been as successful here because he doesn't fit the mold of QB or system this organization wants to run.
RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd been in Gettlemans corner until last night...... Â
If the giants ever become a good team again, Barkley will be everyone’s favorite player. He’s the engine.
By the time the Giants are good again, Barkley will either be gone or finished. He's this generation's Rodney Hampton.
He's going to put on weight and become a bruising style back???
Hampton did that because that is what was forced upon him. He played with a terrible OL and no WRs; he was asked to run the ball up the gut 30 times a game. He was a much more dynamic player than how we used him.
Shared psychotic disorder, also known as folie à deux or psychosis by association, is a relatively rare delusional disorder involving two (or more) people with close emotional ties.
But, realistically, I don't have any confidence in ownership to hire a successful replacement. I think we may be better off with retaining him and allowing him to truly hire the HC of his choice and then allow that HC to hire an entire coaching staff.
Gettleman is 68 years old and will be 69 in february.
He inherited a ton of assets and high draft picks and contrary to DG fluffer's belief, a good (not great) cap situation.
He pretended this team could contend. He pretended he was rebuilding and winning at the same time. He talked tough and was the smartest guy in the room. He failed to properly analyze the talent level of the team he inherited, the coach he hired, the coaches on the staff, the proper allocation of assets that he was given and/or accumulated or the talent of the free agents he signed.
The vision for the team is what? Other than hog mollies I have no idea. We are big and slow and other teams are way more athletic. He understands positional value and asset allocation like Shurmur understands spreading the field and spacing.
With all of the assets he had, you should expect that some of the picks can play. And he has picked a few guys that can play. The fact remains, however, that he squandered two years where he should have been accumulating assets and rebuilding by pretending they were contenders. He has traded picks away rather than stockpiling them and has shown no ability to have a plan for the future of the team and franchise.
This team needs a clean break and real rebuild. He has to go. Time for new blood in the FO.
Gettleman is 68 years old and will be 69 in february.
He inherited a ton of assets and high draft picks and contrary to DG fluffer's belief, a good (not great) cap situation.
He pretended this team could contend. He pretended he was rebuilding and winning at the same time. He talked tough and was the smartest guy in the room. He failed to properly analyze the talent level of the team he inherited, the coach he hired, the coaches on the staff, the proper allocation of assets that he was given and/or accumulated or the talent of the free agents he signed.
The vision for the team is what? Other than hog mollies I have no idea. We are big and slow and other teams are way more athletic. He understands positional value and asset allocation like Shurmur understands spreading the field and spacing.
With all of the assets he had, you should expect that some of the picks can play. And he has picked a few guys that can play. The fact remains, however, that he squandered two years where he should have been accumulating assets and rebuilding by pretending they were contenders. He has traded picks away rather than stockpiling them and has shown no ability to have a plan for the future of the team and franchise.
This team needs a clean break and real rebuild. He has to go. Time for new blood in the FO.
do we know for a FACT it was him who thought we could win? mara could have said we are going for one last run with eli...what would you say? nah ill stay unemployed lol.
its a business too...
I think DG has drafted well. i wont cry if he is shown the door, but he takes a wild amount of blame here....there is plenty to go around, but DG is prob one of the last i hammer with blame. mara sure...shurmur? absolutely....eagles took his lunch in that second half
You would be trading Daniel Jones & Chase Young for Joe Burrow - is that a trade you’d make?
If we're picking #1 and I have that choice (like I said above if we're picking #2 the conditions are different), I'd probably do it. I'm also getting something in return (possibly a first rounder) for trading Jones.
I believe ownership wants a franchise QB to be here for the next 10 years (it's not what I'd do, but it's the reality). If we hitch the wagon to the wrong QB I don't know that Chase Young makes up for that in the long term.
I don't like some of the things I see with Jones. There are too many big negative plays. We lived with that with Eli because he was huge in the big games...I read today that over the course of his career he was 8-1 against the spread as a playoff underdog. Ridiculous. It's impossible to imagine Jones approaching anything like that to make up for the negative plays. And I'm also not certain that it's something that can be coached out of him. It never got coached out of Eli; if anything it got beat out of him and he became a checkdown QB.
As much as I think there's a different way to do it, the reality is that this is a franchise QB league. We've got to get that position right, and it's mathematically unlikely we'll have another pick this high any time soon that lines up with a year with a QB prospect like Burrow that is, I think, much better than Jones.
If we have the #1 pick overall we can trade Jones well before the draft to maximize the value in return. It's not like we can get jumped by anyone else for Burrow.
Arizona really bungled the Rosen situation; I don't think we'd be doomed to the same meager return in a trade for Jones.
If we have the #1 pick overall we can trade Jones well before the draft to maximize the value in return. It's not like we can get jumped by anyone else for Burrow.
Arizona really bungled the Rosen situation; I don't think we'd be doomed to the same meager return in a trade for Jones.
Why do you think Burrow, a guy on a team LOADED with talent is better than Jones? Not being a dick, I am seriously asking?
If we have the #1 pick overall we can trade Jones well before the draft to maximize the value in return. It's not like we can get jumped by anyone else for Burrow.
Arizona really bungled the Rosen situation; I don't think we'd be doomed to the same meager return in a trade for Jones.
okay so i have you on record saying burrow is a sure fire thing before playing an NFL down. he is better than jones in your opinion....
i hate to root against a kid, but you make it easy lol.
you make these wild assumptions and GUESSES. thats what they are. its a guess, you have NO football expertise at all to make the decision or call. you are just everything anti-giant. im serious....root for the jets man or the pats...you would have less to complain about
Watch him play. He's cleaner in the pocket, decisive, gets through his reads quickly. Jones does some of that too...he throws the ball really well...but where Burrow separates is his pocket presence and decision making.
It seems pretty obvious to me. I thought this was universally accepted...
Gettleman is 68 years old and will be 69 in february.
He inherited a ton of assets and high draft picks and contrary to DG fluffer's belief, a good (not great) cap situation.
He pretended this team could contend. He pretended he was rebuilding and winning at the same time. He talked tough and was the smartest guy in the room. He failed to properly analyze the talent level of the team he inherited, the coach he hired, the coaches on the staff, the proper allocation of assets that he was given and/or accumulated or the talent of the free agents he signed.
The vision for the team is what? Other than hog mollies I have no idea. We are big and slow and other teams are way more athletic. He understands positional value and asset allocation like Shurmur understands spreading the field and spacing.
With all of the assets he had, you should expect that some of the picks can play. And he has picked a few guys that can play. The fact remains, however, that he squandered two years where he should have been accumulating assets and rebuilding by pretending they were contenders. He has traded picks away rather than stockpiling them and has shown no ability to have a plan for the future of the team and franchise.
This team needs a clean break and real rebuild. He has to go. Time for new blood in the FO.
do we know for a FACT it was him who thought we could win? mara could have said we are going for one last run with eli...what would you say? nah ill stay unemployed lol.
its a business too...
I think DG has drafted well. i wont cry if he is shown the door, but he takes a wild amount of blame here....there is plenty to go around, but DG is prob one of the last i hammer with blame. mara sure...shurmur? absolutely....eagles took his lunch in that second half
Gettleman is part of the problem. If they are serious about doing things differently he has to go.
Watch him play. He's cleaner in the pocket, decisive, gets through his reads quickly. Jones does some of that too...he throws the ball really well...but where Burrow separates is his pocket presence and decision making.
It seems pretty obvious to me. I thought this was universally accepted...
Terps I think your point is going to be moot as I don't see us leap-frogging Cincy for the top pick.
Watch him play. He's cleaner in the pocket, decisive, gets through his reads quickly. Jones does some of that too...he throws the ball really well...but where Burrow separates is his pocket presence and decision making.
It seems pretty obvious to me. I thought this was universally accepted...
Terps I think your point is going to be moot as I don't see us leap-frogging Cincy for the top pick.
I actually think there's a chance. Cincinnati plays Miami and Cleveland (in Cincy).
Just have to hope the Giants lose out. Not just for the pick, but to cement Gettleman's exit.
If we have the #1 pick overall we can trade Jones well before the draft to maximize the value in return. It's not like we can get jumped by anyone else for Burrow.
Arizona really bungled the Rosen situation; I don't think we'd be doomed to the same meager return in a trade for Jones.
I'd rather hitch my wagon to Jones but if the Giants did this I wouldn't be opposed. The idea is not entirely without merit.
Watch him play. He's cleaner in the pocket, decisive, gets through his reads quickly. Jones does some of that too...he throws the ball really well...but where Burrow separates is his pocket presence and decision making.
It seems pretty obvious to me. I thought this was universally accepted...
yes he is a better prospect.....thats about it. who knows how he plays when he gets to the NFL. jones accuracy you cannot teach...i think he is going to be good. regardless....young is the guy we should come away with in april
Has given us more doubts then answers, I love the real tough guy crew that called me an idiot when we drafted Barkley and passed on Allen and Darnold. I said fire Shurmur after last season, bad is bad, and he is pathetic, I said he was worse then Handley, this crew chose to put all the blame on Eli Manning, now you suffer, and then they declared victory after the Redskin game, how does that look now.
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
Watch him play. He's cleaner in the pocket, decisive, gets through his reads quickly. Jones does some of that too...he throws the ball really well...but where Burrow separates is his pocket presence and decision making.
It seems pretty obvious to me. I thought this was universally accepted...
The last part aside (seemed a bit snotty) I guess I don't see where Jones is that bad off but, ok. Let's play your game. Now you have drafted a QB in the first rd two drafts in a row and your Oline still sucks. What's your plan?
Has given us more doubts then answers, I love the real tough guy crew that called me an idiot when we drafted Barkley and passed on Allen and Darnold. I said fire Shurmur after last season, bad is bad, and he is pathetic, I said he was worse then Handley, this crew chose to put all the blame on Eli Manning, now you suffer, and then they declared victory after the Redskin game, how does that look now.
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
love the BBI scouts. THE KID HASNT PLAYED A FULL FUCKING SEASON.
why cant people understand he is a rookie in less than ideal scenario?!?
give the kid a chance. he is slow thinking?!? wtf...how can you possibly know that lol
Has given us more doubts then answers, I love the real tough guy crew that called me an idiot when we drafted Barkley and passed on Allen and Darnold. I said fire Shurmur after last season, bad is bad, and he is pathetic, I said he was worse then Handley, this crew chose to put all the blame on Eli Manning, now you suffer, and then they declared victory after the Redskin game, how does that look now.
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
love the BBI scouts. THE KID HASNT PLAYED A FULL FUCKING SEASON.
why cant people understand he is a rookie in less than ideal scenario?!?
give the kid a chance. he is slow thinking?!? wtf...how can you possibly know that lol
Thank you. I thought I was out in left field feeling like Jones, with some mistakes for sure, has looked pretty darn good for a Rookie with a team of average players, injured superstar RB and a fucking shitty Oline.
BTW- if Eli started the whole season our record is no better and might actually be worse. There is no way we would have beaten the Bucs with Eli playing against that Dline.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: I'd been in Gettlemans corner until last night...... Â
Has given us more doubts then answers, I love the real tough guy crew that called me an idiot when we drafted Barkley and passed on Allen and Darnold. I said fire Shurmur after last season, bad is bad, and he is pathetic, I said he was worse then Handley, this crew chose to put all the blame on Eli Manning, now you suffer, and then they declared victory after the Redskin game, how does that look now.
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
love the BBI scouts. THE KID HASNT PLAYED A FULL FUCKING SEASON.
why cant people understand he is a rookie in less than ideal scenario?!?
give the kid a chance. he is slow thinking?!? wtf...how can you possibly know that lol
Judging by his poor grammar and sentence structure, and juvenile innuendo - I'd wager he doesn't know much at all.
My plan is to hire people that are better at scouting talent and allocating resources. If you're asking what my plan would be if I were in their shoes, it would be to identify what is on the team that's actually good. To my eye, that doesn't go far past Lawrence, Tomlinson, Slayton, and maybe Love. After that I'm liquidating everything I can for draft picks and starting fresh at every opportunity.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
My plan is to hire people that are better at scouting talent and allocating resources. If you're asking what my plan would be if I were in their shoes, it would be to identify what is on the team that's actually good. To my eye, that doesn't go far past Lawrence, Tomlinson, Slayton, and maybe Love. After that I'm liquidating everything I can for draft picks and starting fresh at every opportunity.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
thats the reality. We are in same situation as 2017. That's on Gettleman.
My plan is to hire people that are better at scouting talent and allocating resources. If you're asking what my plan would be if I were in their shoes, it would be to identify what is on the team that's actually good. To my eye, that doesn't go far past Lawrence, Tomlinson, Slayton, and maybe Love. After that I'm liquidating everything I can for draft picks and starting fresh at every opportunity.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
LMAO. so you think we have 4 good players?! barkley not on your list of keeps?
my god man, you are mentally ill. i am sure you shit on tomlinson at one point too, but now he is included in your talented player list lol
but he's a considerably better prospect than Jones. I don't think it's close.
Kid was a 4 star QB out of Ohio and just got lost in the sauce at OSU. I've heard Urban Meyer talk about him - very glowingly - and you get the impression that he thinks they didn't use him wisely at OSU. And there is some regret...
See them keep Gettleman. He is finishing year 2 of a 3-4 year rebuild after inheriting an absolute mess from Reese. His first two drafts have been relatively strong. Remember, we are one of the youngest teams in the league. We have more rookie starters than anyone, especially on defense. If we are sitting here with less than 6 or 7 wins next year I will be ready to say goodbye to Gettleman as well.
The coaching aspect concerns me more as we seem to be competitive every game but can’t close. That’s on the coaching staff. I still go back to the fact that Shurmur is the play caller. The success rate of head coaches calling plays is low across the league. They need an actual OC and a head coach that does what he is supposed to do, manage the overall team.
My plan is to hire people that are better at scouting talent and allocating resources. If you're asking what my plan would be if I were in their shoes, it would be to identify what is on the team that's actually good. To my eye, that doesn't go far past Lawrence, Tomlinson, Slayton, and maybe Love. After that I'm liquidating everything I can for draft picks and starting fresh at every opportunity.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
This would be the most aggressive overhaul of a team's roster in the history of the NFL. Stripping down the roster to literally 3 or 4 players in one off season.
How long do you reckon it would take your plan to come to fruition?
Has given us more doubts then answers, I love the real tough guy crew that called me an idiot when we drafted Barkley and passed on Allen and Darnold. I said fire Shurmur after last season, bad is bad, and he is pathetic, I said he was worse then Handley, this crew chose to put all the blame on Eli Manning, now you suffer, and then they declared victory after the Redskin game, how does that look now.
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
love the BBI scouts. THE KID HASNT PLAYED A FULL FUCKING SEASON.
why cant people understand he is a rookie in less than ideal scenario?!?
give the kid a chance. he is slow thinking?!? wtf...how can you possibly know that lol
That argument goes both ways. How have we seen enough to say he is a franchise QB?
but he's a considerably better prospect than Jones. I don't think it's close.
Kid was a 4 star QB out of Ohio and just got lost in the sauce at OSU. I've heard Urban Meyer talk about him - very glowingly - and you get the impression that he thinks they didn't use him wisely at OSU. And there is some regret...
See his recruiting profile below. Burrow HS recruit profile - ( New Window )
I mean - I guess. Do you think Meyer is going to come out and bash the kid?
Has given us more doubts then answers, I love the real tough guy crew that called me an idiot when we drafted Barkley and passed on Allen and Darnold. I said fire Shurmur after last season, bad is bad, and he is pathetic, I said he was worse then Handley, this crew chose to put all the blame on Eli Manning, now you suffer, and then they declared victory after the Redskin game, how does that look now.
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
love the BBI scouts. THE KID HASNT PLAYED A FULL FUCKING SEASON.
why cant people understand he is a rookie in less than ideal scenario?!?
give the kid a chance. he is slow thinking?!? wtf...how can you possibly know that lol
That argument goes both ways. How have we seen enough to say he is a franchise QB?
no, we have to wait and see. unlike those here who say no way he is one. i say we wait and see...
My plan is to hire people that are better at scouting talent and allocating resources. If you're asking what my plan would be if I were in their shoes, it would be to identify what is on the team that's actually good. To my eye, that doesn't go far past Lawrence, Tomlinson, Slayton, and maybe Love. After that I'm liquidating everything I can for draft picks and starting fresh at every opportunity.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
This would be the most aggressive overhaul of a team's roster in the history of the NFL. Stripping down the roster to literally 3 or 4 players in one off season.
How long do you reckon it would take your plan to come to fruition?
I never said I'd do it in one season. That's not possible. But you can do it pretty quickly, as Gettleman just showed in only 2 years. The problem was he completely failed at building the roster once he tore the old one apart. He didn't know what he was doing.
How long the plan would take to come to fruition depends on how you define the plan, and how you define "fruition". To me the plan should be to implement a program that allows for successful talent procurement through the draft and FA and development through coaching. "Fruition" is when that program is in place and the pipeline is flowing. I think that can be done in a year. Do that, and like Bill Walsh said, the score takes care of itself.
My plan is to hire people that are better at scouting talent and allocating resources. If you're asking what my plan would be if I were in their shoes, it would be to identify what is on the team that's actually good. To my eye, that doesn't go far past Lawrence, Tomlinson, Slayton, and maybe Love. After that I'm liquidating everything I can for draft picks and starting fresh at every opportunity.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
This would be the most aggressive overhaul of a team's roster in the history of the NFL. Stripping down the roster to literally 3 or 4 players in one off season.
How long do you reckon it would take your plan to come to fruition?
I don't think he means literally 3-4 players..I mean, that's not going to work.
Most NFL teams are always looking to upgrade, but you need bodies to field a team.
What did Phil Simms once say? I'll paraphras: This league sh*ts on you first chance it gets, they are always looking to replace you.
we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
This x1M. This team has been completely gutted. The minute they put a rookie QB in I expected no more than 4-5 wins.
I can see both arguments for and against Gettleman Â
on one hand, he has drafted a young QB who looks like he could be really good, he has made some other nice draft picks, and he has cleared the cap for us pretty nicely for 2020 and beyond.
On the other hand, we are still fucking terrible, part of that falls on Gettleman for the free agency moves, his part in the Shurmur hire (if he had any part), and overall direction of the team starting from 2018 where Eli was kept
I still feel like Gettleman is actually a really solid talent evaluator, so I'd like to have him for the 2020 draft. My fear is that he goes nuts in free agency and makes some dumb moves there, which would compound the problem.
There'a also a scenario where we hire a new GM who would probably be a GM for the first time, and they fuck up the draft because of inexperience.
I guess my point is, I believe that Gettleman actually can pick players really well, but his age old football is won in the mud thing is wearing thin.
Phil Simms has it right, and that's the way it should be. A good team should always be trying to improve on its players. That's been a problem for the Giants...instead of creating competition they've created sacred cows.
In week 4 of 1990 Bill Parcells pulled Phil Simms for Jeff Hostetler up 24-10 with 14 minutes left in the fourth quarter. Out of the blue. Could you imagine if we had done that with Eli Manning? Shit, trying a different QB at the end of a dead season got the coach fired. I don't think the Giants ever honestly tried to improve upon Eli...particularly in the later years. And we saw the result.
I'll grant that this current situation is unusual. It's not often you draft a QB high and have an opportunity to draft a better QB high the very next year. But here we are.
if we basically had anyone other than Shurmur for the past 2 years, people would feel A LOT better about Gettleman. Shurmur is the worst coach in football.
the only way that would happen is if the QB that was taken in the first draft is basically showing nothing, or it was widely known that he just didn't have it.
Jones has really showed a lot for a rookie. There's absolutely zero chance we take a QB.
we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
He hasn't been as great as many here seem to want to believe. He's at 6.4 YPA (31st in NFL above Trubisky and Rudolph), has a 3% INT rate (27th in NFL), 8.2% sack rate (28th in NFL), and leads the league with 15 fumbles.
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
have you read my posts? i said a million times mara was an idiot for thinking we could compete. whether he was just too dumb or was hanging onto something with ol eli. either way he was wrong. its now time to turn it around...they drafted a QB and now need to build OL and add to the young defense...i think another year and we have a better idea if we are heading in right direction or not
You would be trading Daniel Jones & Chase Young for Joe Burrow - is that a trade you’d make?
If we're picking #1 and I have that choice (like I said above if we're picking #2 the conditions are different), I'd probably do it. I'm also getting something in return (possibly a first rounder) for trading Jones.
I believe ownership wants a franchise QB to be here for the next 10 years (it's not what I'd do, but it's the reality). If we hitch the wagon to the wrong QB I don't know that Chase Young makes up for that in the long term.
I don't like some of the things I see with Jones. There are too many big negative plays. We lived with that with Eli because he was huge in the big games...I read today that over the course of his career he was 8-1 against the spread as a playoff underdog. Ridiculous. It's impossible to imagine Jones approaching anything like that to make up for the negative plays. And I'm also not certain that it's something that can be coached out of him. It never got coached out of Eli; if anything it got beat out of him and he became a checkdown QB.
As much as I think there's a different way to do it, the reality is that this is a franchise QB league. We've got to get that position right, and it's mathematically unlikely we'll have another pick this high any time soon that lines up with a year with a QB prospect like Burrow that is, I think, much better than Jones.
So yeah, I'd draft Burrow #1.
For what it's worth, it's not mathematically unlikely. We had the #2 pick 2 years ago and we have the #2 pick now. If you suck you'll be picking high.
I don't get it. So Shurmur is gone, but Gettleman is "in trouble"? Â
you do realize that almost no rookie QB plays really well right? Nobody is saying Jones is playing great, I think that's missing the point. Point we are making is, he has the demeanor, leadership qualities, and most importantly, talent, to be our franchise QB. It's easy to see all that. If he doesn't improve greatly in year 2, then we can start to say he might not be the guy. But as of now, I gotta think most everyone is very happy with Jones no?
I don't think Burrow is a significantly better pro prospect than Jones. Burrow is having an all time year at LSU, but I wouldn't call him that much better of a prospect. Tua was and is a better prospect than Jones, before the hip injury.
you do realize that almost no rookie QB plays really well right? Nobody is saying Jones is playing great, I think that's missing the point. Point we are making is, he has the demeanor, leadership qualities, and most importantly, talent, to be our franchise QB. It's easy to see all that. If he doesn't improve greatly in year 2, then we can start to say he might not be the guy. But as of now, I gotta think most everyone is very happy with Jones no?
if we basically had anyone other than Shurmur for the past 2 years, people would feel A LOT better about Gettleman. Shurmur is the worst coach in football.
DG owns that because he hired the pussy, I mean adult.
He hasn't been as great as many here seem to want to believe. He's at 6.4 YPA (31st in NFL above Trubisky and Rudolph), has a 3% INT rate (27th in NFL), 8.2% sack rate (28th in NFL), and leads the league with 15 fumbles.
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
I have seen enough elite traits in Jones that I would not take a QB unless that QB grades out significantly higher than the other players at premium positions. He certainly has warts, so does Burrow. A trade down to nab Tua and defensive difference maker could be interesting but we have no guarantee how far Tua falls. I am taking Young if I am the new GM with an opportunity to draft him.
I understand he's a rookie, but there are some really troubling aspects to his game that I'm not sure his talent is great enough to overcome.
GT no offense, but that's bullshit. He's a rookie QB, playing on a terrible team, with a terrible LT, a below average RT, and a somewhat terrible C. How can you say that Jones can't "overcome" some troubling aspects that he has shown in his...first 12 NFL games?!
We lived with Eli's turnovers because he was clutch in big games. We can't expect Jones to follow Eli's unusual career path.
Jones was a turnover machine in his first 12 starts. The causes for those turnovers: poor pocket awareness, poor ball security - I'm not convinced that is easily coached out of someone. If you're going to turn it over that much and take that many sacks you'd better be a highly explosive QB, which Jones has not been at this early stage.
I'm not giving up on the guy, I'm just saying that we may have an opportunity to draft a (clearly) better prospect. And if you think Jones is a better prospect than Burrow, we're watching different games.
I understand he's a rookie, but there are some really troubling aspects to his game that I'm not sure his talent is great enough to overcome.
GT no offense, but that's bullshit. He's a rookie QB, playing on a terrible team, with a terrible LT, a below average RT, and a somewhat terrible C. How can you say that Jones can't "overcome" some troubling aspects that he has shown in his...first 12 NFL games?!
As a Giants fan, you've seen players be drafted, look promising, and regress.
Jones' issues aren't just because of the players around him, so dismissing it as bullshit is making things far too simple. Fans expect that players get better from year 1 to year 2, but it's never a guarantee. Especially if they fire the head coach and start over with a new offense he has to learn. Time spent for a rookie having to learn a new offense is time that isn't spent working on refining talent and focusing on personal improvement.
"Being drafted by the Giants," is the least likely guarantee to have a successful NFL career of basically any factor in the NFL over the last decade.
All of these players have to prove it, and get no benefit of the doubt.
This is not a program that's churned out young success stories at some above average rate.
If these youngsters succeed at a normal rate, some of y'all are going to be pissy. If these youngsters succeed at the going rate for Giant draft picks, some of y'all will literally piss.
have way too high of expectations for a rookie QB, and that shocks me a bit considering what we saw with Eli, and just the history of rookie QB play around the league. It's just weird to me. Jones has looked awesome some games, and bad in others. He's a rookie, this is what happens. The hope is that you took the guy that can lead a franchise to championship level on a consistent basis over time. Which, is what this guy appears to be capable of doing. Look at how he has handled everything since he got here.
My plan is to hire people that are better at scouting talent and allocating resources. If you're asking what my plan would be if I were in their shoes, it would be to identify what is on the team that's actually good. To my eye, that doesn't go far past Lawrence, Tomlinson, Slayton, and maybe Love. After that I'm liquidating everything I can for draft picks and starting fresh at every opportunity.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
I'd want to stick with Jones too unless I was sure Burrow was better. Hernandez I still have hope for. The rest of this sorry roster can burn.
you've got to work pretty hard to fault Jones' performance as a rookie Â
with what would at best be described as marginal talent around him he's t-15th with 18 TD passes, which is also 2nd among all first or second year QB's behind only Lamar Jackson, and that's despite playing fewer games than most of them. He's shown the ability to utilize his legs and make athletic plays fighting for extra yards. The fumbles are no doubt a problem area but he's also thrown fewer INT's than most rookie QBs do. Most aren't +7 TD vs. INT and over 60% completions. Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen weren't last year.
QBR isn't a "holy grail" stat or anything, but it does seem to capture the performance of some of the best qb's accurately (Lamer, Mahomes, Dak, Wilson, Watson are IMO correctly this years top 5) - and Jones' ranking there is pretty solid too (#20 of 31 qualified, which happens to be tied with Mayfield and Brady and ahead of some accomplished players like Jared Goff and recent top picks lke Darnold and Josh Allen).
Every player who has ever played in the NFL has had their career determined by their progress or regression over time - and Jones will be no different. But on the scale of rookie QB play that regularly includes outcomes like Haskins this year or Rosen last year or Mitch Trubisky the year before that, it seems short sighted and unrealistic to be net negative evaluating Jones' performance to date.
have way too high of expectations for a rookie QB, and that shocks me a bit considering what we saw with Eli, and just the history of rookie QB play around the league. It's just weird to me. Jones has looked awesome some games, and bad in others. He's a rookie, this is what happens. The hope is that you took the guy that can lead a franchise to championship level on a consistent basis over time. Which, is what this guy appears to be capable of doing. Look at how he has handled everything since he got here.
I'm reading a lot of rationalizing here, and the dreaded use of the word "hope". I don't want the Giants to hope to win...I want them to start trying to win. They haven't tried to win in years.
I've tried to be as specific as possible regarding Jones. He's turned the ball over, shown poor pocket awareness, and not been explosive. The offense did not improve at all when he took over for Eli. If you think Jones is going to be a franchise QB (whatever that means), that's fine - but you can't point to anything concrete. You have to hope he is.
I'm done hoping.
I see a better player in Burrow. He's better in the pocket, he's decisive, and he's dominating the best teams in the best conference in college football. He's probably going to win the Heisman, and he has a decent chance of leading his team to a national championship. I'm admittedly just another asshole at a keyboard, but when I watch him play I see a better QB than Jones is.
If I'm the Giants' new GM and I have the top pick, and my evaluators tell me that Burrow is a superior quarterback to Jones, I'm taking him. It doesn't mean Jones sucks, it just means I'm trying to get better...not hoping.
Gettleman has to go. Imagine giving him 1 or 2 more "make or break" years and letting him spend gobs of cash on mediocre free agents in hopes of saving his job. Sounds familiar.
we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
Agree 100%.
what's to realize?
What exactly have we've received in return for trading JPP and Vernon? the same guys that say
Jerry Reese was so so so bad for the roster
Completely cummed at the idea that DG traded for Ogletree. At least when Jerry paid defensive players they actually produced at above level replacement for their position.
What exactly has this team become once DG gutted it? DG drafted BJ Hill, Dalvin Tomlinson, and then panic traded for Leonard Williams at 2-7 record. Dexter Lawrence has been completely invisible for 9 out of 13 games.
And even when DG had the choice to take the first CB off the board, he took a guy who succeeded at man coverage in college and asked him to play zone to ruin his development.
but yeah, lets have DG overpay LW because he's now a sunk cost.
lets have DG draft another 13 hog mollies
lets have DG trade for more below average first round picks (peppers, ogle tree)
DG is beyond a fucking disaster. He's radioactive nuclear waste that's poisoning this franchise.
If you are a hiring manager, or in this case Mara - aren’t there going to be inherent biases to hire someone who has a conviction/vision to win with the QB you already have?
Even if 5 young promising executives are interviewed in addition to 6-7 young or veteran HC candidates, wouldn’t the pair who has a conviction towards Jones/Barkley have the upper hand (assuming they have the qualifications for the job)?
It is very bold to change course on QB not even a year after drafting him. Is Burrow a better prospect than Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, Watson & Mahomes? Is he a once in a generation prospect? Has Jones been THAT bad?
There was a lot of preparation & due diligence into the Jones pick. The franchise took massive heat for the conviction, the thought of them changing course not even a year later is hard to believe. I’d be confident there will be prospective GM’s/HC’s who will bring up the excitement to work with Jones & Barkley during the interview process.
Lastly, Mara writes the checks and he agreed to take on massive dead money this year to see this “plan” through. I don’t know how eager he will be to see another premium pick flushed down the toilet for the hope that Burrow’s game translates to the pros.
He should be playing this way. It's not all that impressive compared to Tua putting up similar numbers as a true sophomore or even Dwayne Haskins as a first year starter/redshirt sophomore. Considering the team talent criticism that Haskins was ludicrously saddled with on BBI around this time last year, I'm not sure how Burrow manages to avoid the same thing. I think the kid has talent, but I'm not throwing Daniel Jones overboard for him. Burrow is not Trevor Lawrence. He's not even a healthy Tua.
The idea that someone/anyone hasn't seen enough (or anything) from Daniel Jones is beyond laughable. In the history of the NFL, Jones is the first rookie QB ever with 3 games of 300+ yards passing, 2+ passing TDs, and zero interceptions. (The previous record was only 2 games done by just one rookie named Dak Prescott.)
As a comparison, he's already done this as many times through 10 starts as Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen, and Lamar Jackson have in their 109 starts combined.
The criticism of some of Jones' individual traits seem to willfully ignore the fact he's a rookie involved in the learning process of becoming a NFL QB. That process is only made more difficult with horrendous coaches, horrendous o-line, and skill position players who've been in and out of the lineup. Thankfully, the idea of moving on from Jones to draft Burrow, if available, seems limited to very few people either here, the media, and hopefully none in the front office (now or later).
Unfortunately, this is the area where we have to have hope. We have to hope that one of the candidates has the balls to tell Mara that the way he's doing things is broken. Then we have to hope Mara is humble enough to accept that criticism.
This next month has the chance to be a turning point.
But you and Peter King are probably right: if a guy says in an interview that he doesn't believe in Daniel Jones he probably isn't getting a second interview.
RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
He should be playing this way. It's not all that impressive compared to Tua putting up similar numbers as a true sophomore or even Dwayne Haskins as a first year starter/redshirt sophomore. Considering the team talent criticism that Haskins was ludicrously saddled with on BBI around this time last year, I'm not sure how Burrow manages to avoid the same thing. I think the kid has talent, but I'm not throwing Daniel Jones overboard for him. Burrow is not Trevor Lawrence. He's not even a healthy Tua.
The idea that someone/anyone hasn't seen enough (or anything) from Daniel Jones is beyond laughable. In the history of the NFL, Jones is the first rookie QB ever with 3 games of 300+ yards passing, 2+ passing TDs, and zero interceptions. (The previous record was only 2 games done by just one rookie named Dak Prescott.)
As a comparison, he's already done this as many times through 10 starts as Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen, and Lamar Jackson have in their 109 starts combined.
The criticism of some of Jones' individual traits seem to willfully ignore the fact he's a rookie involved in the learning process of becoming a NFL QB. That process is only made more difficult with horrendous coaches, horrendous o-line, and skill position players who've been in and out of the lineup. Thankfully, the idea of moving on from Jones to draft Burrow, if available, seems limited to very few people either here, the media, and hopefully none in the front office (now or later).
Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
RE: RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
Who said Jones was untouchable? I certainly didn't. But Joe Burrow isn't a prospect whose availability would demand the Giants toss Jones overboard for.
Rookies QBs have played bad defenses for a long time. No one else has managed to put up the performances Jones has, so it's hardly nothing. I also recall Eli Manning's performances as a rookie against "good" defenses. Thank goodness the Giants didn't use that a pretext to gauge whether or not Eli was "untouchable".
- is playing behind the worst OL in the NFL
- has a complete JOKE of an 'offensive minded' head coach/staff
-Hasn't played ONE single game yet with all of his offensive weapons in the same game due to injury/suspension.
- Has been playing with virtually no running game all season long, between the horrid OL, Barkley not being 100% from the injury, and/or a combo of both.
Oh yeah, and he's a ROOKIE. I'd be SHOCKED if he doesn't at least turn out to be a good NFL QB once we even have a decent coaching staff, OL, running game, and better/healthier weapons for him to throw to in the future. Oh, and of course, once he gets more experience himself, considering he hasn't even played in 16 regular season games yet.
RE: RE: RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
Who said Jones was untouchable? I certainly didn't. But Joe Burrow isn't a prospect whose availability would demand the Giants toss Jones overboard for.
Rookies QBs have played bad defenses for a long time. No one else has managed to put up the performances Jones has, so it's hardly nothing. I also recall Eli Manning's performances as a rookie against "good" defenses. Thank goodness the Giants didn't use that a pretext to gauge whether or not Eli was "untouchable".
For the sake of argument, if we're talking about statistical records, how does Baker Mayfield look one year after breaking the rookie passing TD record? We're in a different league now than most of the NFL's history of developing quarterbacks. It's not really fair to stack 100 years of league history against what Daniel Jones is doing right now, when it just gets easier and easier to pass the football every year.
Four NFL quarterbacks have a completion percentage above 70 percent this year. 10 quarterbacks have a passer rating over 100.
The game would be unrecognizable to players from even the 90s. And it's not stars doing it. It's nobodies like Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins, and Ryan Tannehill. For some Giants perspective, we all agree Eli Manning's best professional season was 2011, where despite a bad offensive line and no running game, he carried the offense to the playoffs. It was the only season in his career where he averaged 300 yards per game and passed for 4900 yards.
Right now, 16 NFL quarterbacks have a higher passer rating than that season by Eli.
It's a different world than 2004 when Eli Manning was thrown to the wolves and had a 0.0 QB rating against an NFL defense.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
For the sake of argument, if we're talking about statistical records, how does Baker Mayfield look one year after breaking the rookie passing TD record? We're in a different league now than most of the NFL's history of developing quarterbacks. It's not really fair to stack 100 years of league history against what Daniel Jones is doing right now, when it just gets easier and easier to pass the football every year.
Four NFL quarterbacks have a completion percentage above 70 percent this year. 10 quarterbacks have a passer rating over 100.
The game would be unrecognizable to players from even the 90s. And it's not stars doing it. It's nobodies like Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins, and Ryan Tannehill. For some Giants perspective, we all agree Eli Manning's best professional season was 2011, where despite a bad offensive line and no running game, he carried the offense to the playoffs. It was the only season in his career where he averaged 300 yards per game and passed for 4900 yards.
Right now, 16 NFL quarterbacks have a higher passer rating than that season by Eli.
It's a different world than 2004 when Eli Manning was thrown to the wolves and had a 0.0 QB rating against an NFL defense.
Then let's not go back that far. As I said in my original post, Jones has managed that statistical combo in a game as many times (three) as all five QBs drafted in the first round of the 2018 draft combined in 90+ less starts. And I'm going to assume the 5 of them have played bad defenses so far. Heck, Allen and Darnold have both played the Giants.
It doesn't mean Jones is Joe Montana's clone. But this idea that he hasn't done/shown anything is simply asinine.
if Andrew Luck was sitting there anyone would have to consider drafting him unless you already had a Mahomes or Russell Wilson. Joe Burrow is having a terrific season and has a lot of tools but as a prospect he is far from can't miss. On an LSU team that was just about as loaded with athletes as it is every year (ended last season ranked 6th) he completed 58% of his passes and threw for just 16 touchdowns in 13 games, and they got absolutely obliterated by Bama.
They have rolled over everyone this year and he shredded both Bama and UGA, but there's a reason QB is the position with the highest bust rate - even among guys who are multi-year stand outs from the day they step on campus from high school. 1 year wonders are inherently riskier as prospects - Trubisky and Haskins being the most recent negative examples and Kyler probably being the best positive example.
just what about Jones makes you think he isn't capable of running this team? Fumbles are correctable and most will go away with a better oline. Aside from that, he looks pretty damn good.
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
Aaron Rodgers is the exact opposite of a turnover machine.
RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
He should be playing this way. It's not all that impressive compared to Tua putting up similar numbers as a true sophomore or even Dwayne Haskins as a first year starter/redshirt sophomore. Considering the team talent criticism that Haskins was ludicrously saddled with on BBI around this time last year, I'm not sure how Burrow manages to avoid the same thing. I think the kid has talent, but I'm not throwing Daniel Jones overboard for him. Burrow is not Trevor Lawrence. He's not even a healthy Tua.
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
there is no question Burrows dominated this year Â
but he did not dominate at all last year with the exact same cast around him. They changed the offense to an obviously great effect but it's just a fact that he doesn't have a multi-year resume like the most #1OA qb prospects have had. His resume is a lot closer to Trubisky than Luck.
Kyler was the first successful 1 year guy in a while. Cam was probably the last guy before that?
RE: RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
A perfect confluence of events over the course of a full season against that level of competition seems entirely impossible. You cant even really relate it to Dwaune Haskins, considering schedule and Haskins' significant experience gap.
His free agent pickups have been an absolute disaster. I like his first 2 drafts but they hinge on DJ being a franchise QB. We will know at the end of 2020 season a lot more about DJ.
With $50 + million in cap this offseason, I don’t trust DG making the right decisions on free agents.
I would really hope Mara grows a set and cleans house this offseason. That includes a change in pro personnel department.
My heart tells me that won’t happen. Let’s see
The kid performed well on the worst team in the league, with the worst offensive line in the league, under the worst coach in the league, and with two of his starting WRs and TE missing significant time
Then some of you want to sit here and tell us that someone else in the upcoming draft would be a better prospect? Really? We know this how? Because of grading? He would be coming here to play beer the same conditions I referenced above.
I agree, and would add that if Gettleman goes, Chris Mara has to go.
This is the biggest problem though - if the decision is made to retain Gettleman, what's the likelihood that the same justification used to spare Gettleman doesn't also get applied to Mara?
That's the one thing you'd have to hope if the team did hand over the reigns to Rivera, that he comes in and says 'OK, I expect more control over personnel, and that guy (pointing to Mara) needs to spend more time at the stables'.
I agree, and would add that if Gettleman goes, Chris Mara has to go.
This is the biggest problem though - if the decision is made to retain Gettleman, what's the likelihood that the same justification used to spare Gettleman doesn't also get applied to Mara?
That's the one thing you'd have to hope if the team did hand over the reigns to Rivera, that he comes in and says 'OK, I expect more control over personnel, and that guy (pointing to Mara) needs to spend more time at the stables'.
Hopefully internally they have a better idea of who was behind what decision. Given the numerous 180s this team has bald you got a think they’re pulling in opposite directions
RE: RE: RE: Joe Burrow is a 5th year senior on a team loaded with NFL prospects. Â
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
Of course the numbers are different for Burrow from 2018 to 2019. Joe Brady arrived in 2019. An offensive savant who worked under Sean Payton with the Saints.
Look, I get it. I'm the Chairman of the "Careful with the One Hit Wonder Club".
But sometimes the light finally goes on and a player gets it. I think with the arrival of Joe Brady, that's what happened with Burrow this year. And his turnaround was in the SEC against the best competition in the country, not the Big 12 and their various types of swiss cheese.
Forget all of his gaudy numbers, just watch his pocket movements, his ability to stay poised, how he keeps his head up when the pocket collapses, etc. It's good stuff. And those qualities go a long way towards NFL success...
He hasn't been as great as many here seem to want to believe. He's at 6.4 YPA (31st in NFL above Trubisky and Rudolph), has a 3% INT rate (27th in NFL), 8.2% sack rate (28th in NFL), and leads the league with 15 fumbles.
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
This is my take as well. I went bananas after his first two starts (and preseason) but reality set in fast. And I’ve seen too many young QBs flame out in similar fashion. Fool me once. I still like jones but nothing should be off the table no matter how painful it might seem. With that said this isn’t josh rosen either. Jones did flash more than a guy like rosen did despite similarly shitty situations. Jones could have played a lot worse this year.
That is staggeringly nonsensical.
How's your hair gel?
😂🤣😂🤣😂🤣😂
@JordanRaanan
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9m
Pat Shurmur seemed resigned to his fate Monday for first time. Asked if he expects to finish out season, he replied: “Yeah, I do. We’ll just have to wait and see, won’t we.” Then Shurmur cracked a rare joke about being asked the tough questions.
That is staggeringly nonsensical.
Perhaps because John is a moron as well?
1. Kevin Abrams
2. Kevin Abrams
3. Some ESPN Guy
4. Jerry Reese
List he hands to Mara
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punching up his next list of has-beens for the GM vacancy.
1. Kevin Abrams
2. Kevin Abrams
3. Some ESPN Guy
4. Jerry Reese
List he hands to Mara as well as an invoice for his consulting fee
FIFY
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
That is staggeringly nonsensical.
Very good point IMO.
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That was his own doing when he handed out that OBJ contract and decided to give it a go and keep Eli another year.
Plus, public sentiment could also be a check in the wrong column for DG, and companies do pay some attention to the consumer.
The Giants firing Gettleman doesn’t mean the Giants Way narrative isn’t true, it just means Gettleman was so bad they couldn’t stick to their ways.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
How long do you wait for DG “to find better balance?”
Another year of Gettleman could set this franchise back 5.
That is staggeringly nonsensical.
Well, we were 2-6 at the time so maybe Mara thought we could still make a run...??
You can't rule anything out with these clowns.
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But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
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That was his own doing when he handed out that OBJ contract and decided to give it a go and keep Eli another year.
i love how fans act like they know the behind the scenes. EVERYONE in giants front office gave OBJ that contract. DG didnt do it quietly in the night. they all agreed then clearly something happened that we arent aware of and they felt it was best to part ways. i am not sure why DG gets blamed for everything here. the guy has had two solid drafts and gave us a franchise QB. time will tell but he needs more time.
There is a chance the 2019 draft may yield 5 starters which would be an epic success.
And I doubt Gettleman is gone. He still has two or three stupid trades in him.
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In comment 14712448 Vanzetti said:
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But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
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That was his own doing when he handed out that OBJ contract and decided to give it a go and keep Eli another year.
i love how fans act like they know the behind the scenes. EVERYONE in giants front office gave OBJ that contract. DG didnt do it quietly in the night. they all agreed then clearly something happened that we arent aware of and they felt it was best to part ways. i am not sure why DG gets blamed for everything here. the guy has had two solid drafts and gave us a franchise QB. time will tell but he needs more time.
BleedBlue. Your right, we don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes. But we do know that OBJ had another year left on his contract and DG would tell anyone that would listen that they didn't sign him to trade him. So if he didn't play a big part in giving him that extension, he certainly has some accountability. Back to the point that when you said he had all of this dead cap money. He traded away Vernon, Snacks, OBJ, gave Steward and Omameh those deals. All contributions to the dead cap money.
I'll give you Olgetree but Mayo wasn't signed to be a starter. Connelly earned the job before he got hurt. And also Solder isn't the answer - he's also playing on one leg. Blame Gettleman on a lot of things but the injuries aren't his fault.
I think DG stays, but is on a short lease.
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In comment 14712453 figgy2989 said:
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In comment 14712448 Vanzetti said:
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But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
.
That was his own doing when he handed out that OBJ contract and decided to give it a go and keep Eli another year.
i love how fans act like they know the behind the scenes. EVERYONE in giants front office gave OBJ that contract. DG didnt do it quietly in the night. they all agreed then clearly something happened that we arent aware of and they felt it was best to part ways. i am not sure why DG gets blamed for everything here. the guy has had two solid drafts and gave us a franchise QB. time will tell but he needs more time.
BleedBlue. Your right, we don't know everything that goes on behind the scenes. But we do know that OBJ had another year left on his contract and DG would tell anyone that would listen that they didn't sign him to trade him. So if he didn't play a big part in giving him that extension, he certainly has some accountability. Back to the point that when you said he had all of this dead cap money. He traded away Vernon, Snacks, OBJ, gave Steward and Omameh those deals. All contributions to the dead cap money.
OBJ played the part. he showed up and did what was asked. they extended him. then maybe he was a douchebag. i dunno....maybe he went on tv and said he wasnt sure about the place that just gave him 100mill. maybe he did something like that? i dunno.
Which makes no sense.
Pay attention, it's only just begun.
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watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
I'll give you Olgetree but Mayo wasn't signed to be a starter. Connelly earned the job before he got hurt. And also Solder isn't the answer - he's also playing on one leg. Blame Gettleman on a lot of things but the injuries aren't his fault.
The OBJ deal is interesting as it seems like there are many stories about PS wanting Beckham and that is why he ended up with a new contract. FYI- The Browns didn't tarde for OBJ to get rid of him after one year either but, it sure could be headed that way. I say we not use that deal as some sort of beacon of mismanagement as BBI alone was so fucking divided on OBJ that you can imagine Giants Management and Ownership was probably struggling just as much...
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
He had $30M in dead money he created.
If they swing and miss again it will plunge this team into depths that Giants fans haven't seen in a long time.
They're bad now - but it could get worse.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Also bringing in Caserio may bring McDaniels along with him. Not saying I agree with this approach but the organization would love to attempt to replicate the Pats system.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
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7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
+1
And for all you people who consistently say that we as laypersons don't know as much as GMs or coaches, well, I think we would run the Giants differently. This should go to show you that just because these guys are in these positions doesn't mean they are infallible (or in Shurmur's or DSG's cases, even good at their jobs).
How many coaches and GM's need to leave the Patriots and fail at their next stop before people get it through their thick heads that its all Bill Belichick there?
I doubt Gettleman is going anywhere. Its nice to want someone fired until you have to replace them. Its not easy to find good GM's. You're more than likely stuck with Gettleman for another season unless a viable candidate appears, which is unlikely.
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You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
He's 68 years old. He's a finished product as a human being; these are his methods.
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7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
For what it is worth, Kiper was just on ESPN and said - literally - that he has watched every Daniel Jones throw this year, and he is confident that the the Giants have found their next franchise QB. Could he be wrong? Sure. But take that for what it is worth.
Even with a new GM, I do not see the Giants dumping Jones like the Cards did with Rosen. Especially if they are sitting there with a chance to grab Chase Young.
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In comment 14712567 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
i agree. the OL is in shambles and he never even had all of his weapons at the same time. kid is going to be fine. people forget he is a rookie.
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7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
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In comment 14712582 ryanmkeane said:
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7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
Have they? The proof appears to be in the pudding: they're the worst team in the league over the past 3 seasons.
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In comment 14712587 Go Terps said:
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In comment 14712582 ryanmkeane said:
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7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
Have they? The proof appears to be in the pudding: they're the worst team in the league over the past 3 seasons.
ok? shit happens dude. this year was a learning year for jones...did you expect to win?
the last three years we were dealing with a declinging, aging QB and this year a rookie.
it happens....teams go through this shit. hopefully jones is that guy and we get out of it. you are just miserable and dont like a single thing the giants do. i really think you should go root for another team man so you can smile some
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
Someone would have traded for him. He'd been a top 3 WR for years. Easy to say nobody would have traded for him, but that's not true.
And if he did "act like a good citizen", and the front office fell for it, then that's STILL on them if you don't know the player you've had in your building for 4 years. Either way, it's on the front office, ownership included.
FWIW, I think the two biggest failures on the coaching staff are Betcher and the OL coach.
These are the units that are making the same mistakes over and over week in and week out. The things Balldinger keeps saying CAN'T HAPPEN. Sure the back 7 have only one quality starter, a bunch of kids, and some old retreads, but these players don't work in this scheme. And it's not clear Betcher has tried to modify it to fit what he has.
Similarly, the still-in-progress OL rebuild consists of two keepers and 3 JAGs, and like the D, they have no clue what they're supposed to be doing either. As Balldinger says: This shouldn't be happening. They've been playing with each other all year. None of them are rookies. WTF are they being coached to do? Or NOT coached to do.
Not EVERYONE on the OL or the back 7 on D can be brainless idiots. The law of averages alone would dictate otherwise.
But the buck stops with Shurmer.
Yeah but how was that dead money handicapping him? He still made difficult to defend FA acquisitions that likely would have occurred regardless of cap space.
Hell, maybe the contracts he doled out would have been even sillier with more cap space.
I was never sold on Shurmur. I thought he was brought here similar to an interim CEO during a bankruptcy to keep the lights on until things got sorted out and then moved on. Turns out he's now contributing to the bankruptcy because the Giants expectation is that the team would play better for him as the season moves along and win games. They haven't done that. We've seen the 2nd year guys all regress. This will cost him his job.
But if you are Mara, and you try to pull yourself away from the emotion, games are won and lost in the 4th quarter in the NFL. It has always been that way. And games are won there thanks to coaching and talent, and I'd argue that coaching might well be more important to make the in game adjustments to put your team in position to win. You can't tell me the Eagle had better talent on the field than the Giants last night. They didn't. They were probably actually worse. Pederson coached circles around Shurmur and confused him on when to take time outs. It was almost childish.
Let's look at the scores going into/early the 4th quarter of games since the Vikings game. All of which, as we know, the Giants lost
- @ Patriots- down 7
- vs Cardinals- down 3
- @ Lions- down 5
- vs Cowboys- down 1
- @ Jets- up 3
- @ Bears- down 12
- vs. Packers- down 4
- @ Eagles- up 7
So that's 8 games and 8 losses where the Giants were within 1 score either way, and the Bears game in which was still within reach.
John Madden used to say winning is a great deodorant. You can make the argument that the roster was good enough to win because they were in all these games. That they lost all of them points to coaching.
A. A gm candidate they really love or
B. They hire a Coach that wants personel control to work with Abrams and DG slides into an executive role till he retires.
I don't think he is bad, but I would not be opposed to a complete overhaul, including him and his staff. They have shown no propensity for being able to evaluate OL (college or pro), for example. Dooes anyone really have confidence that he will get the OL right this offseason from the draft or FA perspective? I sure don't.
Dumping Odell - good move
Dumping OV - good move
Not signing LC to a massive contract - good move
Getting Zeitler - good move
Getting Barkley (maybe you over drafted him) - good move
I think you're basing your conclusion that Jones is no good on the fact that this particular management group has F'ed up a bunch of stuff and therefore can't get anything right.
It's a dark time and hard to be a fan of this team because, like you said, they are the worst team in football and have been for 3 years now. BUT - what little good light there is, let it shine bro. The hope is there that Jones will be a keeper.
Never in my life have I rooted for such a sure thing. It almost takes the drama out of rooting.
It's like rooting for the Warriors vs the Cavs with Durant on the team.
The vast majority of games are close, by design. Not getting the doors blown off by opponents just means the Giants are statistically in the realm of really bad, not wildly awful.
Was dumping OBJ post contract extension and eating dead money a good move?
Was not being able to trade LC for anything a good move?
These good moves are debatable.
I could just see Hal Hunter salivating over a new creative way to ruin a generational talent if we drafted Nelson instead...
Was dumping OBJ post contract extension and eating dead money a good move?
Was not being able to trade LC for anything a good move?
These good moves are debatable.
the OBJ move is not debatable AT ALL. cleveland will be lucky to get a third rounder for him if he keeps this shit up.
we will prob get a third round comp pick for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT we had better offers, plus the giants were probably going to tag him but things change. obj was probably in the giants plans long term hence the signing, then he goes on tv and talks shit about the franchise who just gave him 100 mill....things change and it was best to ship him out.
hindsight is perfect vision on the draft thing. barkley is a stud of a player and will be much better with a coach who can utilize him...
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
But why sign a guy to a max deal who is unable to fully participate? This stuff with his ankle & elbow has been limiting him from the second he got here. Damaged goods.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
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No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
It's hard to imagine the Giants won't need several more good players and a better staff to be the 7-8 more win team required to get to the playoffs.
Maybe a better staff gets the Giants from dreadful to just bad. But that's a lousy goal.
Mara and Tisch need to build a plan for a championship, not just getting off the mat.
I wonder if he insists on a clean reboot. Gettleman out, Chris Mara out, et cetera.
I mean, he owns fifty percent of this asset that is clearly declining in value.
Is he going to put his foot down?
Is it possible that he buys a portion of the Mara stake so that he becomes majority owner?
His drama being off the team is a plus, and his contract being off the books will be a plus. Hence, why I didn’t outright call it terrible. But it’s certainly debatable.
This means that for the RIGHT candidate who requires full control of football operations, the Giants will now entertain it in a way that they have not in 40 years.
If the Giants are going to go for a Ron Rivera, then Gettleman stays.
If the Giants are going to try to go after a Lincoln Riley, Matt Rhule, or Jim Harbaugh (as examples), who won't come in the door for an interview unless they have that control, maybe they decide that is the right move and Gettleman has to go or gets demoted or whatever.
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
Aaron Rodgers is a walking turnover machine? What?
The numbers don't say that Daniel Jones looks pretty damn good. They don't say that at all.
We can talk about it all we want. My personal view is a new front office should be allowed to do whatever they think is best. But that is not how the Giants are run.
I would put the chances of actually drafting another QB and moving on from Jones at literally 0%. It will not happen. That kind of move is an ownership decision, ownership is not going to push the kid out.
To be honest I think the Giants are in line with most of the league in this regard. Quarterback is too high profile and too important for most owners to remain hands off. I’m not even sure Belichick has final say over QB, by all accounts Brady has a lot of pull with Kraft and may have already been retained primarily because Kraft intervened.
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
If anything, the plan was to turn the Giants into the 2017 Vikings who led the league in rushing behind a move-the-chains-passer who never threw the ball past 15 yards and a stout defense. If you will recall, the OC of that team was one Pat Shurmur.
So, we kept the 100 million in defensive players from the McAdoo era, there was all this talk of "hog mollies", Hernandez, a supposed mauler, was drafted, we spend the #2 pick on a rb, trade up for Lauletta, a Keenum clone, installed Halapio, a larger center than Richburg, and install Shurmur's Andy Reid circa Eagles offense to which Manning is ill-suited. Do those sound like moves centering on Manning?
It didn't work out. Shurmur turned out to be a dunce and every bit the failure he was in Cleveland (a continuing trend this season), the defense wasn't good enough to sustain a running-based offense, OBJ hated the nickel and dime offense, got hurt and then decided it was not worth his time and trouble to keep playing, Lauletta turned out to be a complete bust not worth putting out on the field.
So, time to double down. Get rid of the defensive players who failed you for pennies on the dollar, get Zeitler, get Remmers (who came from surprise, that Minnesota team), get rid of OBJ who was extraneous to the run-run-short pass vision anyway, get Tate, a supposed move-the-chains guy, you still had the rb, spend the 6th pick of the draft on a Super-Keenum and off you go. Does any of that sound Manning-centric?
Well here we are. Unfortunately, none of it worked out. You still had the boob as a HC, the second year guys you were counting on to fulfill the vision had bad years, the defense was a sieve which sent the running game based vision out the window, and super-Keenum turned out to be closer to the real Case Keenum than anticipated.
I think Gettleman had a vision; I do not think it was Manning-centric at all, and I think Shurmur's total incompetence and Gettleman's impatience wrecked it or at least prevented its enactment.
Jones was not particularly good this year. That's a fact. I like him and I think he can play, but thinking he can play is no reason for ownership to require that he be the QB going forward.
If we hire someone to run the show and they think Jones should be the QB, I'm fine moving forward with him. But the new guy(s) have to decide that...not Mara. And I suspect, based on his level of play and the potential opportunity to draft Burrow, that a new guy may want to pursue Burrow.
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
you have the benfit of hindsight.
first off bethea, stewart, omameh signings didnt stop us from getting anyone else....they were stop gaps and roster fillers.
solder was a quality LT at time of signing
keeping manning on the books? so you just cut a two time super bowl champion because you drafted a rookie? the plan was eli plays out his contract(he EARNED that) and jones takes over after him...thats not a bad move by DG lol
His drama being off the team is a plus, and his contract being off the books will be a plus. Hence, why I didn’t outright call it terrible. But it’s certainly debatable.
Not debatable at all. We sold high in this case!
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His picks are starting to show up. Only two years in. If next year they all fall flat then you have an argument.
There is a chance the 2019 draft may yield 5 starters which would be an epic success.
Are they only starters on an awful team? Or would they legitimately be starters on other teams? I'm not convinced that 5 players from the 2019 class are starters on other teams.
In addition all his pubic statements about building a roster ready to compete have blown up in his face (that's an understatement). He's at retirement age anyway. When you have worked in a competitive environment for 50 yrs, it a rare person that when they turn 70, can keep functioning at their highest level.
If a new exec came in and said listen, Jones is ok but Burrow is literally Peyton Manning 2.0, he might get Mara’s attention but I don’t think anyone can plausibly make that case, certainly not strongly enough to get the Giants to move on it.
Burrow has had a tremendous year on a great team, but I don’t think many talent evaluators are going to bang on the table for this kid and say you have to draft him he’s the future of the NFL when you have a young QB in house. If he’s only marginally better than Jones it’s a mistake to move on from Jones for Burrow. If he’s the same or worse it’s very big mistake and a huge missed opportunity to improve elsewhere.
Can you say definitively that he’s better? What’s the most likely outcome? It’s very hard for me to believe that the most likely scenario is that Burrow is a much better pro than Jones.
They’ll keep Jones and draft another piece. Hopefully Chase Young, if not him someone else.
Fuck that
Jones was not particularly good this year. That's a fact. I like him and I think he can play, but thinking he can play is no reason for ownership to require that he be the QB going forward.
If we hire someone to run the show and they think Jones should be the QB, I'm fine moving forward with him. But the new guy(s) have to decide that...not Mara. And I suspect, based on his level of play and the potential opportunity to draft Burrow, that a new guy may want to pursue Burrow.
I want to emphasize that with a new regime, they should be making the decisions on their own. We are an awful team. We aren't good enough to have any sacred cows. Every single player should be judged by the new staff with zero influence by ownership. They can all go to slaughter. We are more than capable losing without them.
Here's the question any incoming GM/head coach is going to have to ask about Jones: "Assuming he doesn't get hurt, in 2 years am I going to want to pay him $40M a year for 4 years?"
That's what happened with Goff and Wentz. It's about to happen with Prescott.
If the answer to that question is not an immediate and resounding "YES!", then going in a different direction at QB has to be an option on the table.
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
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The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
how is the good trade of OBJ offset by the dead cap hit which is going ot be gone? we got at least two solid players out of it and OBJ is a jerkoff who already wants out of cleveland. we WON that trade BY A WIDE MARGIN unless OBJ turns it around and peppers, lawerence, ximenes all fail. how this isnt a slam dunk high five to gettleman at this point is just laughable and shows the bias and hate for him.
i love the not trading so and so was a mistake. it TAKES TWO TEAMS. do you understyand that? do you understand if they dont get the value, they dont make the move. collins is going to get the giants a 3 anyways and they were probably going to tag him anyways until he bitched and they decided against it. this isnt madden guys, shit is fluid. things change day to day.
Not entirely. In 2017, the GM who was let go had already survived one full coaching staff changeover. This would be a stunning change of SOP for Mara.
I'll believe it when I see it, and I'll champion it if it comes with a genuine effort to embrace new voices and real change. But I'm skeptical that this is at all likely until proven otherwise.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
Enough already - HE CREATED THE MAJORITY OF THAT DEAD MONEY!
And citing a dismissal of data as a positive is absolutely absurd. DG is a fucking liability, and his instincts are brutal. He should trust common sense instead.
You mean like last year's picks, who are already falling flat? Or does he keep getting a tack-on year for every rookie class that looks promising while the ADHD segment of the fanbase fellates themselves over the potential of guys who haven't failed yet?
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In comment 14712580 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 14712567 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
Khalil Mack was traded without a long-term deal in place and the Raiders got more in return for him than the Giants did for Beckham. Some of that is positional value - something that DG would never subscribe to anyway - but clearly Mack's contract status wasn't an insurmountable drag on his trade value.
i love the not trading so and so was a mistake. it TAKES TWO TEAMS. do you understyand that? do you understand if they dont get the value, they dont make the move. collins is going to get the giants a 3 anyways and they were probably going to tag him anyways until he bitched and they decided against it. this isnt madden guys, shit is fluid. things change day to day.
Well, per Eric, there was at least one deal on the table for Engram, before this year's trade deadline, and DG wouldn't budge despite staring at first round comp. For a player who has spent a lot of time on the sideline and is becoming less and less dependable, you have to make that move.
And there was definitely a market last year for LC but it appeared DG had a price tag on LC that was too high. Assuming it was the Chiefs third, that was a better third than the compensation pick.
So there were active, available partners.
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No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
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The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
I could have lived with a QB, Edge, OL...
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was given total autonomy to rebuild this roster. I feel he was given orders to not draft a QB in 2018 and to try to add pieces around Eli for one more run. I also feel that completely flipped this year and he was told to bring in next QB no matter what.
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
What is this meme that everything revolved around Manning? That notion has taken hold here despite evidence to the contrary.
If anything, the plan was to turn the Giants into the 2017 Vikings who led the league in rushing behind a move-the-chains-passer who never threw the ball past 15 yards and a stout defense. If you will recall, the OC of that team was one Pat Shurmur.
So, we kept the 100 million in defensive players from the McAdoo era, there was all this talk of "hog mollies", Hernandez, a supposed mauler, was drafted, we spend the #2 pick on a rb, trade up for Lauletta, a Keenum clone, installed Halapio, a larger center than Richburg, and install Shurmur's Andy Reid circa Eagles offense to which Manning is ill-suited. Do those sound like moves centering on Manning?
It didn't work out. Shurmur turned out to be a dunce and every bit the failure he was in Cleveland (a continuing trend this season), the defense wasn't good enough to sustain a running-based offense, OBJ hated the nickel and dime offense, got hurt and then decided it was not worth his time and trouble to keep playing, Lauletta turned out to be a complete bust not worth putting out on the field.
So, time to double down. Get rid of the defensive players who failed you for pennies on the dollar, get Zeitler, get Remmers (who came from surprise, that Minnesota team), get rid of OBJ who was extraneous to the run-run-short pass vision anyway, get Tate, a supposed move-the-chains guy, you still had the rb, spend the 6th pick of the draft on a Super-Keenum and off you go. Does any of that sound Manning-centric?
Well here we are. Unfortunately, none of it worked out. You still had the boob as a HC, the second year guys you were counting on to fulfill the vision had bad years, the defense was a sieve which sent the running game based vision out the window, and super-Keenum turned out to be closer to the real Case Keenum than anticipated.
I think Gettleman had a vision; I do not think it was Manning-centric at all, and I think Shurmur's total incompetence and Gettleman's impatience wrecked it or at least prevented its enactment.
Trade up for Lauletta?
I'll worry about BleedBlue when he learns how to use his fucking shift key.
I'll worry about BleedBlue when he learns how to use his fucking shift key.
Fast forward to DG's first two years as GM with NYG. Now, as people have stated, different era, free agency exists, etc. meaning turnaround time is expected to be quicker But I'm equating his first two years to GY's first five, and the results are similar, and of course don't look good.
But DG has a track record (like GY) and drafted a QB who looks the part (like GY).
I think Shurmur should be canned and GM allowed to pick another HC, and get a third year of drafting and free agency.
But the team needs to make a move next year - significant - for DG to keep his job.
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In comment 14712747 Keaton028 said:
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The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
Nelson was never a realistic alternative to Barkley according to all reports. It was Barkley or Darnold.
Now, the OL is still terrible. But, Gettleman (and Shurmer?) thought it was fixed. They thought Solder was the anchor LT for at least the next few years, that Hernandez was a road grader LG, Setiler was a top OG, and Remmers would solidify the right side. I have no clue to this day what they could be thinking about Halapio other than he is big. He NEVER showed anything to be optimistic about.
Solder we should have known better about. Anyone the Patriots let walk should be ignored. They have had uncanny success determining when it is time to move on from players. Even if it was 1 year early (not the case here), you can almost certainly count on that guy regressing badly. Hernandez showed flashes last year and there was reason for optimism. However, with Solder regressing and Halapio sucking, he is still a young OL left to his own devices a lot of the time and he isn't the road grader we expected. Halapio just flat out sucks and, to me, the biggest problem on the OL. We are constantly getting defenders in the backfield from the A gaps on running and passing plays. Zeitler has been solid, but he is hardly a top OG in the league...and that is the best we have to offer. Remmers has been even worse than Solder, if that is possible.
So, where does that leave us? One, in desparate need of a new OL coach because there is no development of young players, improvement from week to week, etc. Two, we have Barkley with the talent to be a top 5 RB in the league getting deemed a bust by some here because he can't take a handoff without 2-3 guys immediately in the backfield. We look like we will be wasting his best years health-wise; we may never see him at his fullest potential again. Similarly, we have a promising young QB who has gotten manhandled by constant and ridiculous pressure. While he has not seemed rattled, it is hard to gauge how he projects moving forward and hard to imagine that these beatings won't have a lasting effect.
To me, a lot of this also comes down to coaching from HC, to OC, to QB coach (or lack thereof), to OL coach, to RB coach, to DL, DC, etc. The entire staff should be fired. Gettleman, I am not sold one way or the other, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if he were fired. I just don't have confidence in the ownership hiring a legit GM in his stead.
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
Here's the question any incoming GM/head coach is going to have to ask about Jones: "Assuming he doesn't get hurt, in 2 years am I going to want to pay him $40M a year for 4 years?"
That's what happened with Goff and Wentz. It's about to happen with Prescott.
If the answer to that question is not an immediate and resounding "YES!", then going in a different direction at QB has to be an option on the table.
Honestly how have the "next big thing" QBs looked? They've all shown flashes of greatness certainly, but also been pretty meh. Injuries are certainly a factor (Wentz, Mahomes this season), but everyone who's supposed to come take the torch from Brady/Brees/Rodgers hasn't. And just look at last year's #1, after all the hype he generated compared to what he's done (and the Brown's on general) this year.
It's far too soon to say if DJ8 is the franchise QB. All the young QBs seem to be volatile. If a new GM wants his own QB he should be allowed to have his own QB.
That said even with a new GM I think Jones will be the QB through next season
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
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In comment 14712699 Keaton028 said:
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No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
It's hard to imagine the Giants won't need several more good players and a better staff to be the 7-8 more win team required to get to the playoffs.
Maybe a better staff gets the Giants from dreadful to just bad. But that's a lousy goal.
Mara and Tisch need to build a plan for a championship, not just getting off the mat.
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
Do we know that? Or do we know that Solder's agent leaked that? Does the Patriots typical behavior regarding aging vets who are starting to show their first cracks toward decline tell you that they definitely wanted him back at a price that was anywhere near what the Giants paid?
I think a lot of fans are taking some info that was strategically placed by NS's agent and believing it as gospel. Resigning Solder would have been a bit out of character for the Patriots, though I wouldn't put it past them to drive the price up to benefit their own comp pick situation.
bw....there were reports of offers for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT there were. plus, is it not possible giants planned to tag him, but he bitched and they were like okay, let him walk. this happened AFTER the trade deadline.
engram having offers for him is also just "reports" and frankly he is very talented player and i am sure they wanted jones to have some explosive players.
the biggest problem on this board is we take reports as fact and use hindsight in our arguments.
AT THE TIME. solder was the right move
AT THE TIME. obj was part of the plans
AT THE TIME. they felt collins was in the future plans or maybe worth more than a 3rd
we dont have a ton of information to go off of and i get we like to cry because we are depressed giant fans who are rooting for a losing team, but we shouldnt skew the reality saying there were "reports"
We as a forum dont have a good inside view of what goes on. we judge after there is a clear picture. you can pick apart EVERY GM IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME for bad moves. I think we should probably stick to just rooting for the team like fans instead of arguing EVERY move. sure DG has fucked up, we know this. He also has had two solid drafts....nobody wants to talk about those tho
bw....there were reports of offers for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT there were. plus, is it not possible giants planned to tag him, but he bitched and they were like okay, let him walk. this happened AFTER the trade deadline.
engram having offers for him is also just "reports" and frankly he is very talented player and i am sure they wanted jones to have some explosive players.
the biggest problem on this board is we take reports as fact and use hindsight in our arguments.
AT THE TIME. solder was the right move
AT THE TIME. obj was part of the plans
AT THE TIME. they felt collins was in the future plans or maybe worth more than a 3rd
we dont have a ton of information to go off of and i get we like to cry because we are depressed giant fans who are rooting for a losing team, but we shouldnt skew the reality saying there were "reports"
We as a forum dont have a good inside view of what goes on. we judge after there is a clear picture. you can pick apart EVERY GM IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME for bad moves. I think we should probably stick to just rooting for the team like fans instead of arguing EVERY move. sure DG has fucked up, we know this. He also has had two solid drafts....nobody wants to talk about those tho
You seem to be posting a lot more frequently lately. Maybe McL has a valid point.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
Solder made a passing comment the offers were close, and there was speculation in the Boston media the Pats weren't offering significant guaranteed money.
The Pats had a number of mechanisms to ensure he stayed, instead they let him walk and then won a Super Bowl with his replacement.
The Pats, a team in championship window, had the patience to let it play out. The Giants, a team at the bottom of the barrel didn't.
There is no single action that epitomizes the difference between a winner and a loser than the Nate Solder deal.
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Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
+1. Go big and bold. the half measure bullshit isnt cutting it. Gettleman is a complete laughingstock.
UNLESS - Someone great is available this year.
That the fear but I think ownership may just actually have seen enough. This is impacting the bottom line.
Belcher is no better the staff needs to go period now
many here feel DG should go as well granted he has three
Free agent disasters . The biggest being Nate Soldier I don't
think anyone thought he would fall off a cliff . Remmers
was a stopgap signing who is pretty much shot .
On the other hand Marcus Golden has been outstanding and
he hustles . I feel his drafts have been pretty solid even
the Patriots have had some pretty poor draft picks .
My question is who would be and adequate replacement
for him they don't grow on trees .
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In comment 14713122 figgy2989 said:
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Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
I expected a former scout to be able to correctly assess the talent level of his roster and map out his strategy accordingly. I expected a professional who knows how roster construction and cap economics work. I expected a negotiator who places a value on each transaction and walks when he doesn't get his price. I expected a GM who doesn't get bent over like fresh fish in Attica every time he makes a trade.
Would that be a fair starting point?
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watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
every team “has a running back”. It’s the easiest position in the league to fill.
Myth. Not every team has a great running back. Not even close actually. And the teams that do run well are doing so because of coaching, qb play and OL.
Imagine having a great rb within a great system and qb... try it out.
If the giants ever become a good team again, Barkley will be everyone’s favorite player. He’s the engine.
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In comment 14713126 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14713122 figgy2989 said:
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Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
I expected a former scout to be able to correctly assess the talent level of his roster and map out his strategy accordingly. I expected a professional who knows how roster construction and cap economics work. I expected a negotiator who places a value on each transaction and walks when he doesn't get his price. I expected a GM who doesn't get bent over like fresh fish in Attica every time he makes a trade.
Would that be a fair starting point?
youre right to expect competency. I just think DG gets a lot of heat thats misplaced. Im not in love with the job he has done, but his drafts have been solid and im eager to see how they turn out. We also dont know what he is up against, Mara could have made it clear one last run with eli so Dg did whaetver he could to throw some vets around him to try and win. now, we have a franchise QB, a solid RB, a ton of youth especially in the secondary. with another offseason, he can continue to shape the roster. i think the DG hate is probably premature, it takes time to undo the shit show that was the reese roster. thats a guy who didnt draft well at all for 6 straight years outside of the first round or two
No more half measures. The people that want Shurmur fired and not DG are clueless. How do you expect to hire the right coach if all it’s going to take for one more likely bad season then you fire the GM and saddle him with a coach he didn’t pick?
That’s what the Jets do. The giants need to fire both. Get a football opp guy in to pick his own coach and go from there.
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Agree to disagree. The OBJ move is debatable. We took a big dead money hit for him, and I’m not sure the return was great. Also, I’m certain the absence of OBJ and having to scheme for him, hurt Barkley big time this season.
His drama being off the team is a plus, and his contract being off the books will be a plus. Hence, why I didn’t outright call it terrible. But it’s certainly debatable.
Not debatable at all. We sold high in this case!
DG outright bamboozled Cleveland GM whippersnapper with his analytics.
No more half measures. The people that want Shurmur fired and not DG are clueless. How do you expect to hire the right coach if all it’s going to take for one more likely bad season then you fire the GM and saddle him with a coach he didn’t pick?
That’s what the Jets do. The giants need to fire both. Get a football opp guy in to pick his own coach and go from there.
Hiring wco weenie coaches with laminated sheets in their face is a baffling pattern that precedes DG.
By the time the Giants are good again, Barkley will either be gone or finished. He's this generation's Rodney Hampton.
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In comment 14712434 Dinger said:
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watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
every team “has a running back”. It’s the easiest position in the league to fill.
Myth. Not every team has a great running back. Not even close actually. And the teams that do run well are doing so because of coaching, qb play and OL.
Imagine having a great rb within a great system and qb... try it out.
If the giants ever become a good team again, Barkley will be everyone’s favorite player. He’s the engine.
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The numbers don't say Jones has been fine.
Here's the question any incoming GM/head coach is going to have to ask about Jones: "Assuming he doesn't get hurt, in 2 years am I going to want to pay him $40M a year for 4 years?"
That's what happened with Goff and Wentz. It's about to happen with Prescott.
If the answer to that question is not an immediate and resounding "YES!", then going in a different direction at QB has to be an option on the table.
Honestly how have the "next big thing" QBs looked? They've all shown flashes of greatness certainly, but also been pretty meh. Injuries are certainly a factor (Wentz, Mahomes this season), but everyone who's supposed to come take the torch from Brady/Brees/Rodgers hasn't. And just look at last year's #1, after all the hype he generated compared to what he's done (and the Brown's on general) this year.
It's far too soon to say if DJ8 is the franchise QB. All the young QBs seem to be volatile. If a new GM wants his own QB he should be allowed to have his own QB.
That said even with a new GM I think Jones will be the QB through next season
"The next big thing" QBs includes Daniel Jones...he was picked #6 overall as the central building block for the organization. Now usually you don't get a shot at picking a better QB prospect a year after you just picked a QB, but the Giants are actually going to be a worse team this year, and there is a better prospect available in Burrow. It's an unusual situation.
I think an objective evaluation of Jones v. Burrow has Burrow the better prospect. If that's the case, I think you have to pick Burrow if he's available to you.
And in simpler terms Burrow vs Burrow
It's Young vs Burrow
I could have lived with a QB, Edge, OL...
That said, I don't think Jackson would have been as successful here because he doesn't fit the mold of QB or system this organization wants to run.
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If the giants ever become a good team again, Barkley will be everyone’s favorite player. He’s the engine.
By the time the Giants are good again, Barkley will either be gone or finished. He's this generation's Rodney Hampton.
He's going to put on weight and become a bruising style back???
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In comment 14713171 djm said:
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If the giants ever become a good team again, Barkley will be everyone’s favorite player. He’s the engine.
By the time the Giants are good again, Barkley will either be gone or finished. He's this generation's Rodney Hampton.
He's going to put on weight and become a bruising style back???
And in simpler terms Burrow vs Burrow
If we pick #2 it probably won't be Young v. Burrow, as you'd have to expect one of them to go #1.
So if someone takes Young #1, does ownership allow the new people to draft Burrow and move Jones?
Shared psychotic disorder, also known as folie à deux or psychosis by association, is a relatively rare delusional disorder involving two (or more) people with close emotional ties.
it be burrow(if we are #1) and josh allen for jones and young
how can anyone know which side to pick. its ridiuclous...burrow can bust, jones can be a HoF.
everyone here terps included wants results overnight. DGs first draft is two years old. young guys take time to develop
exactly - thank you
He inherited a ton of assets and high draft picks and contrary to DG fluffer's belief, a good (not great) cap situation.
He pretended this team could contend. He pretended he was rebuilding and winning at the same time. He talked tough and was the smartest guy in the room. He failed to properly analyze the talent level of the team he inherited, the coach he hired, the coaches on the staff, the proper allocation of assets that he was given and/or accumulated or the talent of the free agents he signed.
The vision for the team is what? Other than hog mollies I have no idea. We are big and slow and other teams are way more athletic. He understands positional value and asset allocation like Shurmur understands spreading the field and spacing.
With all of the assets he had, you should expect that some of the picks can play. And he has picked a few guys that can play. The fact remains, however, that he squandered two years where he should have been accumulating assets and rebuilding by pretending they were contenders. He has traded picks away rather than stockpiling them and has shown no ability to have a plan for the future of the team and franchise.
This team needs a clean break and real rebuild. He has to go. Time for new blood in the FO.
He inherited a ton of assets and high draft picks and contrary to DG fluffer's belief, a good (not great) cap situation.
He pretended this team could contend. He pretended he was rebuilding and winning at the same time. He talked tough and was the smartest guy in the room. He failed to properly analyze the talent level of the team he inherited, the coach he hired, the coaches on the staff, the proper allocation of assets that he was given and/or accumulated or the talent of the free agents he signed.
The vision for the team is what? Other than hog mollies I have no idea. We are big and slow and other teams are way more athletic. He understands positional value and asset allocation like Shurmur understands spreading the field and spacing.
With all of the assets he had, you should expect that some of the picks can play. And he has picked a few guys that can play. The fact remains, however, that he squandered two years where he should have been accumulating assets and rebuilding by pretending they were contenders. He has traded picks away rather than stockpiling them and has shown no ability to have a plan for the future of the team and franchise.
This team needs a clean break and real rebuild. He has to go. Time for new blood in the FO.
do we know for a FACT it was him who thought we could win? mara could have said we are going for one last run with eli...what would you say? nah ill stay unemployed lol.
its a business too...
I think DG has drafted well. i wont cry if he is shown the door, but he takes a wild amount of blame here....there is plenty to go around, but DG is prob one of the last i hammer with blame. mara sure...shurmur? absolutely....eagles took his lunch in that second half
If we're picking #1 and I have that choice (like I said above if we're picking #2 the conditions are different), I'd probably do it. I'm also getting something in return (possibly a first rounder) for trading Jones.
I believe ownership wants a franchise QB to be here for the next 10 years (it's not what I'd do, but it's the reality). If we hitch the wagon to the wrong QB I don't know that Chase Young makes up for that in the long term.
I don't like some of the things I see with Jones. There are too many big negative plays. We lived with that with Eli because he was huge in the big games...I read today that over the course of his career he was 8-1 against the spread as a playoff underdog. Ridiculous. It's impossible to imagine Jones approaching anything like that to make up for the negative plays. And I'm also not certain that it's something that can be coached out of him. It never got coached out of Eli; if anything it got beat out of him and he became a checkdown QB.
As much as I think there's a different way to do it, the reality is that this is a franchise QB league. We've got to get that position right, and it's mathematically unlikely we'll have another pick this high any time soon that lines up with a year with a QB prospect like Burrow that is, I think, much better than Jones.
So yeah, I'd draft Burrow #1.
The precedent has been set. By the way - the move the Cards made to get Murray hasn't exactly worked out the way they thought it would.
Arizona really bungled the Rosen situation; I don't think we'd be doomed to the same meager return in a trade for Jones.
Arizona really bungled the Rosen situation; I don't think we'd be doomed to the same meager return in a trade for Jones.
Why do you think Burrow, a guy on a team LOADED with talent is better than Jones? Not being a dick, I am seriously asking?
Arizona really bungled the Rosen situation; I don't think we'd be doomed to the same meager return in a trade for Jones.
okay so i have you on record saying burrow is a sure fire thing before playing an NFL down. he is better than jones in your opinion....
i hate to root against a kid, but you make it easy lol.
you make these wild assumptions and GUESSES. thats what they are. its a guess, you have NO football expertise at all to make the decision or call. you are just everything anti-giant. im serious....root for the jets man or the pats...you would have less to complain about
It seems pretty obvious to me. I thought this was universally accepted...
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Gettleman is 68 years old and will be 69 in february.
He inherited a ton of assets and high draft picks and contrary to DG fluffer's belief, a good (not great) cap situation.
He pretended this team could contend. He pretended he was rebuilding and winning at the same time. He talked tough and was the smartest guy in the room. He failed to properly analyze the talent level of the team he inherited, the coach he hired, the coaches on the staff, the proper allocation of assets that he was given and/or accumulated or the talent of the free agents he signed.
The vision for the team is what? Other than hog mollies I have no idea. We are big and slow and other teams are way more athletic. He understands positional value and asset allocation like Shurmur understands spreading the field and spacing.
With all of the assets he had, you should expect that some of the picks can play. And he has picked a few guys that can play. The fact remains, however, that he squandered two years where he should have been accumulating assets and rebuilding by pretending they were contenders. He has traded picks away rather than stockpiling them and has shown no ability to have a plan for the future of the team and franchise.
This team needs a clean break and real rebuild. He has to go. Time for new blood in the FO.
do we know for a FACT it was him who thought we could win? mara could have said we are going for one last run with eli...what would you say? nah ill stay unemployed lol.
its a business too...
I think DG has drafted well. i wont cry if he is shown the door, but he takes a wild amount of blame here....there is plenty to go around, but DG is prob one of the last i hammer with blame. mara sure...shurmur? absolutely....eagles took his lunch in that second half
Gettleman is part of the problem. If they are serious about doing things differently he has to go.
It seems pretty obvious to me. I thought this was universally accepted...
Terps I think your point is going to be moot as I don't see us leap-frogging Cincy for the top pick.
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Watch him play. He's cleaner in the pocket, decisive, gets through his reads quickly. Jones does some of that too...he throws the ball really well...but where Burrow separates is his pocket presence and decision making.
It seems pretty obvious to me. I thought this was universally accepted...
Terps I think your point is going to be moot as I don't see us leap-frogging Cincy for the top pick.
I actually think there's a chance. Cincinnati plays Miami and Cleveland (in Cincy).
Just have to hope the Giants lose out. Not just for the pick, but to cement Gettleman's exit.
Arizona really bungled the Rosen situation; I don't think we'd be doomed to the same meager return in a trade for Jones.
I'd rather hitch my wagon to Jones but if the Giants did this I wouldn't be opposed. The idea is not entirely without merit.
I don't know. Washington played tough in Green Bay this week. They actually have a defense, and who's covering McLaurin?
Mara should mandate that Tanney start these games. If he's so fucking good in the room let him be good on the field.
It seems pretty obvious to me. I thought this was universally accepted...
yes he is a better prospect.....thats about it. who knows how he plays when he gets to the NFL. jones accuracy you cannot teach...i think he is going to be good. regardless....young is the guy we should come away with in april
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
It seems pretty obvious to me. I thought this was universally accepted...
The last part aside (seemed a bit snotty) I guess I don't see where Jones is that bad off but, ok. Let's play your game. Now you have drafted a QB in the first rd two drafts in a row and your Oline still sucks. What's your plan?
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
love the BBI scouts. THE KID HASNT PLAYED A FULL FUCKING SEASON.
why cant people understand he is a rookie in less than ideal scenario?!?
give the kid a chance. he is slow thinking?!? wtf...how can you possibly know that lol
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Has given us more doubts then answers, I love the real tough guy crew that called me an idiot when we drafted Barkley and passed on Allen and Darnold. I said fire Shurmur after last season, bad is bad, and he is pathetic, I said he was worse then Handley, this crew chose to put all the blame on Eli Manning, now you suffer, and then they declared victory after the Redskin game, how does that look now.
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
love the BBI scouts. THE KID HASNT PLAYED A FULL FUCKING SEASON.
why cant people understand he is a rookie in less than ideal scenario?!?
give the kid a chance. he is slow thinking?!? wtf...how can you possibly know that lol
Thank you. I thought I was out in left field feeling like Jones, with some mistakes for sure, has looked pretty darn good for a Rookie with a team of average players, injured superstar RB and a fucking shitty Oline.
BTW- if Eli started the whole season our record is no better and might actually be worse. There is no way we would have beaten the Bucs with Eli playing against that Dline.
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In comment 14713171 djm said:
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If the giants ever become a good team again, Barkley will be everyone’s favorite player. He’s the engine.
By the time the Giants are good again, Barkley will either be gone or finished. He's this generation's Rodney Hampton.
He's going to put on weight and become a bruising style back???
No, he'll be past the point of relevance before the team returns to it. Was that difficult to understand? Would you prefer I post in rebuses?
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Has given us more doubts then answers, I love the real tough guy crew that called me an idiot when we drafted Barkley and passed on Allen and Darnold. I said fire Shurmur after last season, bad is bad, and he is pathetic, I said he was worse then Handley, this crew chose to put all the blame on Eli Manning, now you suffer, and then they declared victory after the Redskin game, how does that look now.
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
love the BBI scouts. THE KID HASNT PLAYED A FULL FUCKING SEASON.
why cant people understand he is a rookie in less than ideal scenario?!?
give the kid a chance. he is slow thinking?!? wtf...how can you possibly know that lol
Judging by his poor grammar and sentence structure, and juvenile innuendo - I'd wager he doesn't know much at all.
Did you really just randomly laugh out loud at the end of that sentence? That's weird.
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i hate to root against a kid, but you make it easy lol.
Did you really just randomly laugh out loud at the end of that sentence? That's weird.
haha
you got me.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
thats the reality. We are in same situation as 2017. That's on Gettleman.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
LMAO. so you think we have 4 good players?! barkley not on your list of keeps?
my god man, you are mentally ill. i am sure you shit on tomlinson at one point too, but now he is included in your talented player list lol
Kid was a 4 star QB out of Ohio and just got lost in the sauce at OSU. I've heard Urban Meyer talk about him - very glowingly - and you get the impression that he thinks they didn't use him wisely at OSU. And there is some regret...
See his recruiting profile below.
Burrow HS recruit profile - ( New Window )
The coaching aspect concerns me more as we seem to be competitive every game but can’t close. That’s on the coaching staff. I still go back to the fact that Shurmur is the play caller. The success rate of head coaches calling plays is low across the league. They need an actual OC and a head coach that does what he is supposed to do, manage the overall team.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
This would be the most aggressive overhaul of a team's roster in the history of the NFL. Stripping down the roster to literally 3 or 4 players in one off season.
How long do you reckon it would take your plan to come to fruition?
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Has given us more doubts then answers, I love the real tough guy crew that called me an idiot when we drafted Barkley and passed on Allen and Darnold. I said fire Shurmur after last season, bad is bad, and he is pathetic, I said he was worse then Handley, this crew chose to put all the blame on Eli Manning, now you suffer, and then they declared victory after the Redskin game, how does that look now.
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
love the BBI scouts. THE KID HASNT PLAYED A FULL FUCKING SEASON.
why cant people understand he is a rookie in less than ideal scenario?!?
give the kid a chance. he is slow thinking?!? wtf...how can you possibly know that lol
That argument goes both ways. How have we seen enough to say he is a franchise QB?
Kid was a 4 star QB out of Ohio and just got lost in the sauce at OSU. I've heard Urban Meyer talk about him - very glowingly - and you get the impression that he thinks they didn't use him wisely at OSU. And there is some regret...
See his recruiting profile below. Burrow HS recruit profile - ( New Window )
I mean - I guess. Do you think Meyer is going to come out and bash the kid?
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In comment 14713332 PaulN said:
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Has given us more doubts then answers, I love the real tough guy crew that called me an idiot when we drafted Barkley and passed on Allen and Darnold. I said fire Shurmur after last season, bad is bad, and he is pathetic, I said he was worse then Handley, this crew chose to put all the blame on Eli Manning, now you suffer, and then they declared victory after the Redskin game, how does that look now.
If you say Jones is a franchise QB, you are clueless, there are things that are alarmingly bad about this player. He is no leader, he is pretty slow thinking, he holds the ball way too long due to his slow thinking and then doesn't as soon as he is hit, and he is already hurt. But the same crowd that killed me over defending Eli that he was not the main problem, the same crowd that told me In Reese we Trust, and when I told them our team was build by Accorsi, they pointing to Boss, Bradshaw and Smith as the proof he was great. Building a team is more then a few picks, a lot more, and evaluating a franchise QB is a lot more then accuracy, which is something he does have, his mobility is good, but at what price, fumbles? Jones is a real mystery on whether you build your franchise around this player, right now I lean more towards no.
Trust me on this, David Jones is no sure bet to be a good QB, let alone a Super Bowl QB. That player is leaving, along with the only remaining pride in this sick organization. They better get rid of big fucking mouth Gettleman, 7 championships Gettleman, just ask the fuck, and clean house completely, then the new regime decide if Jones is worth moving forward with.
love the BBI scouts. THE KID HASNT PLAYED A FULL FUCKING SEASON.
why cant people understand he is a rookie in less than ideal scenario?!?
give the kid a chance. he is slow thinking?!? wtf...how can you possibly know that lol
That argument goes both ways. How have we seen enough to say he is a franchise QB?
no, we have to wait and see. unlike those here who say no way he is one. i say we wait and see...
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My plan is to hire people that are better at scouting talent and allocating resources. If you're asking what my plan would be if I were in their shoes, it would be to identify what is on the team that's actually good. To my eye, that doesn't go far past Lawrence, Tomlinson, Slayton, and maybe Love. After that I'm liquidating everything I can for draft picks and starting fresh at every opportunity.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
This would be the most aggressive overhaul of a team's roster in the history of the NFL. Stripping down the roster to literally 3 or 4 players in one off season.
How long do you reckon it would take your plan to come to fruition?
I never said I'd do it in one season. That's not possible. But you can do it pretty quickly, as Gettleman just showed in only 2 years. The problem was he completely failed at building the roster once he tore the old one apart. He didn't know what he was doing.
How long the plan would take to come to fruition depends on how you define the plan, and how you define "fruition". To me the plan should be to implement a program that allows for successful talent procurement through the draft and FA and development through coaching. "Fruition" is when that program is in place and the pipeline is flowing. I think that can be done in a year. Do that, and like Bill Walsh said, the score takes care of itself.
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My plan is to hire people that are better at scouting talent and allocating resources. If you're asking what my plan would be if I were in their shoes, it would be to identify what is on the team that's actually good. To my eye, that doesn't go far past Lawrence, Tomlinson, Slayton, and maybe Love. After that I'm liquidating everything I can for draft picks and starting fresh at every opportunity.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
This would be the most aggressive overhaul of a team's roster in the history of the NFL. Stripping down the roster to literally 3 or 4 players in one off season.
How long do you reckon it would take your plan to come to fruition?
I don't think he means literally 3-4 players..I mean, that's not going to work.
Most NFL teams are always looking to upgrade, but you need bodies to field a team.
What did Phil Simms once say? I'll paraphras: This league sh*ts on you first chance it gets, they are always looking to replace you.
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
This x1M. This team has been completely gutted. The minute they put a rookie QB in I expected no more than 4-5 wins.
On the other hand, we are still fucking terrible, part of that falls on Gettleman for the free agency moves, his part in the Shurmur hire (if he had any part), and overall direction of the team starting from 2018 where Eli was kept
There'a also a scenario where we hire a new GM who would probably be a GM for the first time, and they fuck up the draft because of inexperience.
I guess my point is, I believe that Gettleman actually can pick players really well, but his age old football is won in the mud thing is wearing thin.
In week 4 of 1990 Bill Parcells pulled Phil Simms for Jeff Hostetler up 24-10 with 14 minutes left in the fourth quarter. Out of the blue. Could you imagine if we had done that with Eli Manning? Shit, trying a different QB at the end of a dead season got the coach fired. I don't think the Giants ever honestly tried to improve upon Eli...particularly in the later years. And we saw the result.
I'll grant that this current situation is unusual. It's not often you draft a QB high and have an opportunity to draft a better QB high the very next year. But here we are.
Jones has really showed a lot for a rookie. There's absolutely zero chance we take a QB.
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we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
Which makes no sense.
That's my feeling as well.
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
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In comment 14713463 ryanmkeane said:
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we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
have you read my posts? i said a million times mara was an idiot for thinking we could compete. whether he was just too dumb or was hanging onto something with ol eli. either way he was wrong. its now time to turn it around...they drafted a QB and now need to build OL and add to the young defense...i think another year and we have a better idea if we are heading in right direction or not
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You would be trading Daniel Jones & Chase Young for Joe Burrow - is that a trade you’d make?
If we're picking #1 and I have that choice (like I said above if we're picking #2 the conditions are different), I'd probably do it. I'm also getting something in return (possibly a first rounder) for trading Jones.
I believe ownership wants a franchise QB to be here for the next 10 years (it's not what I'd do, but it's the reality). If we hitch the wagon to the wrong QB I don't know that Chase Young makes up for that in the long term.
I don't like some of the things I see with Jones. There are too many big negative plays. We lived with that with Eli because he was huge in the big games...I read today that over the course of his career he was 8-1 against the spread as a playoff underdog. Ridiculous. It's impossible to imagine Jones approaching anything like that to make up for the negative plays. And I'm also not certain that it's something that can be coached out of him. It never got coached out of Eli; if anything it got beat out of him and he became a checkdown QB.
As much as I think there's a different way to do it, the reality is that this is a franchise QB league. We've got to get that position right, and it's mathematically unlikely we'll have another pick this high any time soon that lines up with a year with a QB prospect like Burrow that is, I think, much better than Jones.
So yeah, I'd draft Burrow #1.
For what it's worth, it's not mathematically unlikely. We had the #2 pick 2 years ago and we have the #2 pick now. If you suck you'll be picking high.
i agree and i am
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
GT no offense, but that's bullshit. He's a rookie QB, playing on a terrible team, with a terrible LT, a below average RT, and a somewhat terrible C. How can you say that Jones can't "overcome" some troubling aspects that he has shown in his...first 12 NFL games?!
Jones was a turnover machine in his first 12 starts. The causes for those turnovers: poor pocket awareness, poor ball security - I'm not convinced that is easily coached out of someone. If you're going to turn it over that much and take that many sacks you'd better be a highly explosive QB, which Jones has not been at this early stage.
I'm not giving up on the guy, I'm just saying that we may have an opportunity to draft a (clearly) better prospect. And if you think Jones is a better prospect than Burrow, we're watching different games.
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I understand he's a rookie, but there are some really troubling aspects to his game that I'm not sure his talent is great enough to overcome.
GT no offense, but that's bullshit. He's a rookie QB, playing on a terrible team, with a terrible LT, a below average RT, and a somewhat terrible C. How can you say that Jones can't "overcome" some troubling aspects that he has shown in his...first 12 NFL games?!
As a Giants fan, you've seen players be drafted, look promising, and regress.
Jones' issues aren't just because of the players around him, so dismissing it as bullshit is making things far too simple. Fans expect that players get better from year 1 to year 2, but it's never a guarantee. Especially if they fire the head coach and start over with a new offense he has to learn. Time spent for a rookie having to learn a new offense is time that isn't spent working on refining talent and focusing on personal improvement.
All of these players have to prove it, and get no benefit of the doubt.
This is not a program that's churned out young success stories at some above average rate.
If these youngsters succeed at a normal rate, some of y'all are going to be pissy. If these youngsters succeed at the going rate for Giant draft picks, some of y'all will literally piss.
We were in this exact spot when we fired Reese and McAdoo. We wasted two years with incompetent leadership. Hire someone real and let them build it right.
And I'd be careful about agreeing with Bleedblue...that fucking guy breathes through gills.
I'd want to stick with Jones too unless I was sure Burrow was better. Hernandez I still have hope for. The rest of this sorry roster can burn.
QBR isn't a "holy grail" stat or anything, but it does seem to capture the performance of some of the best qb's accurately (Lamer, Mahomes, Dak, Wilson, Watson are IMO correctly this years top 5) - and Jones' ranking there is pretty solid too (#20 of 31 qualified, which happens to be tied with Mayfield and Brady and ahead of some accomplished players like Jared Goff and recent top picks lke Darnold and Josh Allen).
Every player who has ever played in the NFL has had their career determined by their progress or regression over time - and Jones will be no different. But on the scale of rookie QB play that regularly includes outcomes like Haskins this year or Rosen last year or Mitch Trubisky the year before that, it seems short sighted and unrealistic to be net negative evaluating Jones' performance to date.
I'm reading a lot of rationalizing here, and the dreaded use of the word "hope". I don't want the Giants to hope to win...I want them to start trying to win. They haven't tried to win in years.
I've tried to be as specific as possible regarding Jones. He's turned the ball over, shown poor pocket awareness, and not been explosive. The offense did not improve at all when he took over for Eli. If you think Jones is going to be a franchise QB (whatever that means), that's fine - but you can't point to anything concrete. You have to hope he is.
I'm done hoping.
I see a better player in Burrow. He's better in the pocket, he's decisive, and he's dominating the best teams in the best conference in college football. He's probably going to win the Heisman, and he has a decent chance of leading his team to a national championship. I'm admittedly just another asshole at a keyboard, but when I watch him play I see a better QB than Jones is.
If I'm the Giants' new GM and I have the top pick, and my evaluators tell me that Burrow is a superior quarterback to Jones, I'm taking him. It doesn't mean Jones sucks, it just means I'm trying to get better...not hoping.
Tear it all down. Draft Burrow if he's available.
and we need more juice from JonC and hitdog
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In comment 14713463 ryanmkeane said:
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we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
Agree 100%.
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In comment 14713470 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 14713463 ryanmkeane said:
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we are absolutely, positively, not in the same situation as 2017. We could have up to 100M in cap space this offseason, and a young QB. How is that the same as 2017?
because wins bro. they arent taking into account the complete turnover and wins dont happen right away. people dont realize how bad we were off in 2017. we had a bad team, but we had a bad team with pricey vets, pains in the ass, and no QB of the future. its really simple, people need to be patient
People don't realize? Or Dave Gettleman and John Mara didn't realize?
They're the ones who treated 2017 like an outlier and built their 2018 roster as though 2016 was the valid scouting report on this team. Don't blame fans for a lack of patience when the fucking front office couldn't even self-scout enough to realize "how bad we were off in 2017."
Agree 100%.
what's to realize?
What exactly have we've received in return for trading JPP and Vernon? the same guys that say
Jerry Reese was so so so bad for the roster
Completely cummed at the idea that DG traded for Ogletree. At least when Jerry paid defensive players they actually produced at above level replacement for their position.
What exactly has this team become once DG gutted it? DG drafted BJ Hill, Dalvin Tomlinson, and then panic traded for Leonard Williams at 2-7 record. Dexter Lawrence has been completely invisible for 9 out of 13 games.
And even when DG had the choice to take the first CB off the board, he took a guy who succeeded at man coverage in college and asked him to play zone to ruin his development.
but yeah, lets have DG overpay LW because he's now a sunk cost.
lets have DG draft another 13 hog mollies
lets have DG trade for more below average first round picks (peppers, ogle tree)
DG is beyond a fucking disaster. He's radioactive nuclear waste that's poisoning this franchise.
HE LET JOHN MARA GET ROBBED BY THE JETS.
Even if 5 young promising executives are interviewed in addition to 6-7 young or veteran HC candidates, wouldn’t the pair who has a conviction towards Jones/Barkley have the upper hand (assuming they have the qualifications for the job)?
It is very bold to change course on QB not even a year after drafting him. Is Burrow a better prospect than Darnold, Mayfield, Allen, Watson & Mahomes? Is he a once in a generation prospect? Has Jones been THAT bad?
There was a lot of preparation & due diligence into the Jones pick. The franchise took massive heat for the conviction, the thought of them changing course not even a year later is hard to believe. I’d be confident there will be prospective GM’s/HC’s who will bring up the excitement to work with Jones & Barkley during the interview process.
Lastly, Mara writes the checks and he agreed to take on massive dead money this year to see this “plan” through. I don’t know how eager he will be to see another premium pick flushed down the toilet for the hope that Burrow’s game translates to the pros.
The idea that someone/anyone hasn't seen enough (or anything) from Daniel Jones is beyond laughable. In the history of the NFL, Jones is the first rookie QB ever with 3 games of 300+ yards passing, 2+ passing TDs, and zero interceptions. (The previous record was only 2 games done by just one rookie named Dak Prescott.)
As a comparison, he's already done this as many times through 10 starts as Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen, and Lamar Jackson have in their 109 starts combined.
The criticism of some of Jones' individual traits seem to willfully ignore the fact he's a rookie involved in the learning process of becoming a NFL QB. That process is only made more difficult with horrendous coaches, horrendous o-line, and skill position players who've been in and out of the lineup. Thankfully, the idea of moving on from Jones to draft Burrow, if available, seems limited to very few people either here, the media, and hopefully none in the front office (now or later).
This next month has the chance to be a turning point.
But you and Peter King are probably right: if a guy says in an interview that he doesn't believe in Daniel Jones he probably isn't getting a second interview.
The idea that someone/anyone hasn't seen enough (or anything) from Daniel Jones is beyond laughable. In the history of the NFL, Jones is the first rookie QB ever with 3 games of 300+ yards passing, 2+ passing TDs, and zero interceptions. (The previous record was only 2 games done by just one rookie named Dak Prescott.)
As a comparison, he's already done this as many times through 10 starts as Baker Mayfield, Sam Darnold, Josh Allen, Josh Rosen, and Lamar Jackson have in their 109 starts combined.
The criticism of some of Jones' individual traits seem to willfully ignore the fact he's a rookie involved in the learning process of becoming a NFL QB. That process is only made more difficult with horrendous coaches, horrendous o-line, and skill position players who've been in and out of the lineup. Thankfully, the idea of moving on from Jones to draft Burrow, if available, seems limited to very few people either here, the media, and hopefully none in the front office (now or later).
Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
Who said Jones was untouchable? I certainly didn't. But Joe Burrow isn't a prospect whose availability would demand the Giants toss Jones overboard for.
Rookies QBs have played bad defenses for a long time. No one else has managed to put up the performances Jones has, so it's hardly nothing. I also recall Eli Manning's performances as a rookie against "good" defenses. Thank goodness the Giants didn't use that a pretext to gauge whether or not Eli was "untouchable".
- is playing behind the worst OL in the NFL
- has a complete JOKE of an 'offensive minded' head coach/staff
-Hasn't played ONE single game yet with all of his offensive weapons in the same game due to injury/suspension.
- Has been playing with virtually no running game all season long, between the horrid OL, Barkley not being 100% from the injury, and/or a combo of both.
Oh yeah, and he's a ROOKIE. I'd be SHOCKED if he doesn't at least turn out to be a good NFL QB once we even have a decent coaching staff, OL, running game, and better/healthier weapons for him to throw to in the future. Oh, and of course, once he gets more experience himself, considering he hasn't even played in 16 regular season games yet.
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Count me as someone who likes what he has seen of Jones.
That said, two of those 300 yard, 2 TD games are against the NFL's 30th and 31st pass defenses. The third game was against the 18th ranked pass defense. And if he didn't get hurt, he would be threatening the single-season record for fumbles. He had 15 in his starts. The all time record is 23
I think there's something to work with, possibly, but we're not talking about some untouchable prospect.
Who said Jones was untouchable? I certainly didn't. But Joe Burrow isn't a prospect whose availability would demand the Giants toss Jones overboard for.
Rookies QBs have played bad defenses for a long time. No one else has managed to put up the performances Jones has, so it's hardly nothing. I also recall Eli Manning's performances as a rookie against "good" defenses. Thank goodness the Giants didn't use that a pretext to gauge whether or not Eli was "untouchable".
For the sake of argument, if we're talking about statistical records, how does Baker Mayfield look one year after breaking the rookie passing TD record? We're in a different league now than most of the NFL's history of developing quarterbacks. It's not really fair to stack 100 years of league history against what Daniel Jones is doing right now, when it just gets easier and easier to pass the football every year.
Four NFL quarterbacks have a completion percentage above 70 percent this year. 10 quarterbacks have a passer rating over 100.
The game would be unrecognizable to players from even the 90s. And it's not stars doing it. It's nobodies like Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins, and Ryan Tannehill. For some Giants perspective, we all agree Eli Manning's best professional season was 2011, where despite a bad offensive line and no running game, he carried the offense to the playoffs. It was the only season in his career where he averaged 300 yards per game and passed for 4900 yards.
Right now, 16 NFL quarterbacks have a higher passer rating than that season by Eli.
It's a different world than 2004 when Eli Manning was thrown to the wolves and had a 0.0 QB rating against an NFL defense.
For the sake of argument, if we're talking about statistical records, how does Baker Mayfield look one year after breaking the rookie passing TD record? We're in a different league now than most of the NFL's history of developing quarterbacks. It's not really fair to stack 100 years of league history against what Daniel Jones is doing right now, when it just gets easier and easier to pass the football every year.
Four NFL quarterbacks have a completion percentage above 70 percent this year. 10 quarterbacks have a passer rating over 100.
The game would be unrecognizable to players from even the 90s. And it's not stars doing it. It's nobodies like Derek Carr, Kirk Cousins, and Ryan Tannehill. For some Giants perspective, we all agree Eli Manning's best professional season was 2011, where despite a bad offensive line and no running game, he carried the offense to the playoffs. It was the only season in his career where he averaged 300 yards per game and passed for 4900 yards.
Right now, 16 NFL quarterbacks have a higher passer rating than that season by Eli.
It's a different world than 2004 when Eli Manning was thrown to the wolves and had a 0.0 QB rating against an NFL defense.
Then let's not go back that far. As I said in my original post, Jones has managed that statistical combo in a game as many times (three) as all five QBs drafted in the first round of the 2018 draft combined in 90+ less starts. And I'm going to assume the 5 of them have played bad defenses so far. Heck, Allen and Darnold have both played the Giants.
It doesn't mean Jones is Joe Montana's clone. But this idea that he hasn't done/shown anything is simply asinine.
They have rolled over everyone this year and he shredded both Bama and UGA, but there's a reason QB is the position with the highest bust rate - even among guys who are multi-year stand outs from the day they step on campus from high school. 1 year wonders are inherently riskier as prospects - Trubisky and Haskins being the most recent negative examples and Kyler probably being the best positive example.
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
Aaron Rodgers is the exact opposite of a turnover machine.
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Kyler was the first successful 1 year guy in a while. Cam was probably the last guy before that?
I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
Playing QB for this team requires more then just gaudy stats.
I don't think Burrow would handle the spotlight here very well.
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I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
A perfect confluence of events over the course of a full season against that level of competition seems entirely impossible. You cant even really relate it to Dwaune Haskins, considering schedule and Haskins' significant experience gap.
With $50 + million in cap this offseason, I don’t trust DG making the right decisions on free agents.
I would really hope Mara grows a set and cleans house this offseason. That includes a change in pro personnel department.
My heart tells me that won’t happen. Let’s see
Then some of you want to sit here and tell us that someone else in the upcoming draft would be a better prospect? Really? We know this how? Because of grading? He would be coming here to play beer the same conditions I referenced above.
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Chris Mara has to go.
I agree, and would add that if Gettleman goes, Chris Mara has to go.
This is the biggest problem though - if the decision is made to retain Gettleman, what's the likelihood that the same justification used to spare Gettleman doesn't also get applied to Mara?
That's the one thing you'd have to hope if the team did hand over the reigns to Rivera, that he comes in and says 'OK, I expect more control over personnel, and that guy (pointing to Mara) needs to spend more time at the stables'.
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ron mexico said:
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Chris Mara has to go.
I agree, and would add that if Gettleman goes, Chris Mara has to go.
This is the biggest problem though - if the decision is made to retain Gettleman, what's the likelihood that the same justification used to spare Gettleman doesn't also get applied to Mara?
That's the one thing you'd have to hope if the team did hand over the reigns to Rivera, that he comes in and says 'OK, I expect more control over personnel, and that guy (pointing to Mara) needs to spend more time at the stables'.
Hopefully internally they have a better idea of who was behind what decision. Given the numerous 180s this team has bald you got a think they’re pulling in opposite directions
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I have stated the same concerns on Burrow that I stated on Haskins - the potential one hit wonder syndrome.
But it's clearer to me that Burrow has better attributes than Haskins at this point. You could make a video about QB mechanics using Burrow as your model.
Do you agree that the SEC is the best conference in college football? Do you agree that four of the best programs in the country are Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida?
My guess is yes to all of that.
So...do you know what Burrows stats were in those games?
Literally not one single soul alive was discussing any of Joe Burrow's traits or mechanics 12 months ago. He started last season too. I know his numbers against Alabama, Georgia, Auburn, and Florida from 2018... he threw just 1 TD pass in 4 games combined with a 50% completion percentage. So the question becomes is this growth or a perfect confluence of events?
Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I choose to be majorly skeptical.
Of course the numbers are different for Burrow from 2018 to 2019. Joe Brady arrived in 2019. An offensive savant who worked under Sean Payton with the Saints.
Look, I get it. I'm the Chairman of the "Careful with the One Hit Wonder Club".
But sometimes the light finally goes on and a player gets it. I think with the arrival of Joe Brady, that's what happened with Burrow this year. And his turnaround was in the SEC against the best competition in the country, not the Big 12 and their various types of swiss cheese.
Forget all of his gaudy numbers, just watch his pocket movements, his ability to stay poised, how he keeps his head up when the pocket collapses, etc. It's good stuff. And those qualities go a long way towards NFL success...
Nada.
The offense was poor with him at the helm (19 PPG), and the team went 2-10 in his starts. He did not elevate this team in any provable way. Every argument supporting his case as a franchise QB is going to have to be couched and rationalized with poor coaching and poor offensive line play. The degree to which that is accurate is debatable and objective, but based solely on what we know concretely...I fail to see a franchise QB anywhere in this picture.
I'm not saying he can't be a franchise QB, I'm saying he hasn't been one to this point...and we may have a shot to draft what I'm guessing will universally be considered a better prospect.
I like Jones and want him to succeed, but I'm done hoping for good things to just happen out of nowhere.
This is my take as well. I went bananas after his first two starts (and preseason) but reality set in fast. And I’ve seen too many young QBs flame out in similar fashion. Fool me once. I still like jones but nothing should be off the table no matter how painful it might seem. With that said this isn’t josh rosen either. Jones did flash more than a guy like rosen did despite similarly shitty situations. Jones could have played a lot worse this year.