7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
What coach will they get with DSG at the helm? (Yes, I am calling him DSG because he has earned the moniker.) If coaches are reluctant to work with the guy, either because they want some level of control over "the groceries" or because they view him as a guy who may be out in a year (and thus vulnerable themselves), it won't work. I think the Giants may let DSG go out of necessity to get the coach they want.
And for all you people who consistently say that we as laypersons don't know as much as GMs or coaches, well, I think we would run the Giants differently. This should go to show you that just because these guys are in these positions doesn't mean they are infallible (or in Shurmur's or DSG's cases, even good at their jobs).
In comment 14712425 Kevin(formerly Tiki4Six) said:
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and bring Nick Caserio in with him!!
How many coaches and GM's need to leave the Patriots and fail at their next stop before people get it through their thick heads that its all Bill Belichick there?
I doubt Gettleman is going anywhere. Its nice to want someone fired until you have to replace them. Its not easy to find good GM's. You're more than likely stuck with Gettleman for another season unless a viable candidate appears, which is unlikely.
RE: RE: It can only be looked at as mismanagement Â
You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
He's 68 years old. He's a finished product as a human being; these are his methods.
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
For what it is worth, Kiper was just on ESPN and said - literally - that he has watched every Daniel Jones throw this year, and he is confident that the the Giants have found their next franchise QB. Could he be wrong? Sure. But take that for what it is worth.
Even with a new GM, I do not see the Giants dumping Jones like the Cards did with Rosen. Especially if they are sitting there with a chance to grab Chase Young.
You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
Have they? The proof appears to be in the pudding: they're the worst team in the league over the past 3 seasons.
7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
Have they? The proof appears to be in the pudding: they're the worst team in the league over the past 3 seasons.
ok? shit happens dude. this year was a learning year for jones...did you expect to win?
the last three years we were dealing with a declinging, aging QB and this year a rookie.
it happens....teams go through this shit. hopefully jones is that guy and we get out of it. you are just miserable and dont like a single thing the giants do. i really think you should go root for another team man so you can smile some
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
Someone would have traded for him. He'd been a top 3 WR for years. Easy to say nobody would have traded for him, but that's not true.
And if he did "act like a good citizen", and the front office fell for it, then that's STILL on them if you don't know the player you've had in your building for 4 years. Either way, it's on the front office, ownership included.
FWIW, I think the two biggest failures on the coaching staff are Betcher and the OL coach.
These are the units that are making the same mistakes over and over week in and week out. The things Balldinger keeps saying CAN'T HAPPEN. Sure the back 7 have only one quality starter, a bunch of kids, and some old retreads, but these players don't work in this scheme. And it's not clear Betcher has tried to modify it to fit what he has.
Similarly, the still-in-progress OL rebuild consists of two keepers and 3 JAGs, and like the D, they have no clue what they're supposed to be doing either. As Balldinger says: This shouldn't be happening. They've been playing with each other all year. None of them are rookies. WTF are they being coached to do? Or NOT coached to do.
Not EVERYONE on the OL or the back 7 on D can be brainless idiots. The law of averages alone would dictate otherwise.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
Yeah but how was that dead money handicapping him? He still made difficult to defend FA acquisitions that likely would have occurred regardless of cap space.
Hell, maybe the contracts he doled out would have been even sillier with more cap space.
and I will admit that while I'm not completely in Gettleman's corner at this juncture, I also don't think that he's totally lost touch here. There are some pieces that can be a building block, including getting a QB in Jones who looks to have a future.
I was never sold on Shurmur. I thought he was brought here similar to an interim CEO during a bankruptcy to keep the lights on until things got sorted out and then moved on. Turns out he's now contributing to the bankruptcy because the Giants expectation is that the team would play better for him as the season moves along and win games. They haven't done that. We've seen the 2nd year guys all regress. This will cost him his job.
But if you are Mara, and you try to pull yourself away from the emotion, games are won and lost in the 4th quarter in the NFL. It has always been that way. And games are won there thanks to coaching and talent, and I'd argue that coaching might well be more important to make the in game adjustments to put your team in position to win. You can't tell me the Eagle had better talent on the field than the Giants last night. They didn't. They were probably actually worse. Pederson coached circles around Shurmur and confused him on when to take time outs. It was almost childish.
Let's look at the scores going into/early the 4th quarter of games since the Vikings game. All of which, as we know, the Giants lost
- @ Patriots- down 7
- vs Cardinals- down 3
- @ Lions- down 5
- vs Cowboys- down 1
- @ Jets- up 3
- @ Bears- down 12
- vs. Packers- down 4
- @ Eagles- up 7
So that's 8 games and 8 losses where the Giants were within 1 score either way, and the Bears game in which was still within reach.
John Madden used to say winning is a great deodorant. You can make the argument that the roster was good enough to win because they were in all these games. That they lost all of them points to coaching.
A. A gm candidate they really love or
B. They hire a Coach that wants personel control to work with Abrams and DG slides into an executive role till he retires.
On one hand, I like his drafts and I like that he had his convictions and stuck to them. On the other hand, I think his FA acquisitions have been terrible, his trades leave a lot of questions (not necessarily all bad, but there is a lot of room for examination).
I don't think he is bad, but I would not be opposed to a complete overhaul, including him and his staff. They have shown no propensity for being able to evaluate OL (college or pro), for example. Dooes anyone really have confidence that he will get the OL right this offseason from the draft or FA perspective? I sure don't.
DG has made some bad calls on player evaluation, but it's not like every move the Giants have made over the course of the last 5 years had been bad.
Dumping Odell - good move
Dumping OV - good move
Not signing LC to a massive contract - good move
Getting Zeitler - good move
Getting Barkley (maybe you over drafted him) - good move
I think you're basing your conclusion that Jones is no good on the fact that this particular management group has F'ed up a bunch of stuff and therefore can't get anything right.
It's a dark time and hard to be a fan of this team because, like you said, they are the worst team in football and have been for 3 years now. BUT - what little good light there is, let it shine bro. The hope is there that Jones will be a keeper.
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
The average margin of victory most years in the NFL is less than a TD.
The vast majority of games are close, by design. Not getting the doors blown off by opponents just means the Giants are statistically in the realm of really bad, not wildly awful.
Was drafting Barkley over Nelson a good move?
Was dumping OBJ post contract extension and eating dead money a good move?
Was not being able to trade LC for anything a good move?
Was drafting Barkley over Nelson a good move?
Was dumping OBJ post contract extension and eating dead money a good move?
Was not being able to trade LC for anything a good move?
These good moves are debatable.
the OBJ move is not debatable AT ALL. cleveland will be lucky to get a third rounder for him if he keeps this shit up.
we will prob get a third round comp pick for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT we had better offers, plus the giants were probably going to tag him but things change. obj was probably in the giants plans long term hence the signing, then he goes on tv and talks shit about the franchise who just gave him 100 mill....things change and it was best to ship him out.
hindsight is perfect vision on the draft thing. barkley is a stud of a player and will be much better with a coach who can utilize him...
was given total autonomy to rebuild this roster. I feel he was given orders to not draft a QB in 2018 and to try to add pieces around Eli for one more run. I also feel that completely flipped this year and he was told to bring in next QB no matter what.
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
But why sign a guy to a max deal who is unable to fully participate? This stuff with his ankle & elbow has been limiting him from the second he got here. Damaged goods.
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
It's hard to imagine the Giants won't need several more good players and a better staff to be the 7-8 more win team required to get to the playoffs.
Maybe a better staff gets the Giants from dreadful to just bad. But that's a lousy goal.
Mara and Tisch need to build a plan for a championship, not just getting off the mat.
That’s what I meant. If we are counting being within reach of catching up to the Cardinals, Lions, and Bears in the 4th as a sign our roster isn’t terrible.... I don’t know. Feels like we are ready to settle big time.
Agree to disagree. The OBJ move is debatable. We took a big dead money hit for him, and I’m not sure the return was great. Also, I’m certain the absence of OBJ and having to scheme for him, hurt Barkley big time this season.
His drama being off the team is a plus, and his contract being off the books will be a plus. Hence, why I didn’t outright call it terrible. But it’s certainly debatable.
Appears to be getting rocky. With his recent public comments, sounds like Tisch would favor a clean sweep including Gettleman. You have to know that Mara will want to keep Gettleman and hire Rivera or someone similar. They may be 50/50 on paper, but I doubt Mara considers Tisch his equal wrt football operations. Another poster noted leaks coming out from non-NY reporters. Someone inside could be seeding public opinion and not wanting it to be traced back to them.
as I read this, what I think is going on, is that Mara/Tisch are revisiting the George Young org structure (Owners own the team, GMs pick the players, coaches coach the players, and players play...everyone stays in their sandbox) and now changing it up.
This means that for the RIGHT candidate who requires full control of football operations, the Giants will now entertain it in a way that they have not in 40 years.
If the Giants are going to go for a Ron Rivera, then Gettleman stays.
If the Giants are going to try to go after a Lincoln Riley, Matt Rhule, or Jim Harbaugh (as examples), who won't come in the door for an interview unless they have that control, maybe they decide that is the right move and Gettleman has to go or gets demoted or whatever.
just what about Jones makes you think he isn't capable of running this team? Fumbles are correctable and most will go away with a better oline. Aside from that, he looks pretty damn good.
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
just what about Jones makes you think he isn't capable of running this team? Fumbles are correctable and most will go away with a better oline. Aside from that, he looks pretty damn good.
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
Aaron Rodgers is a walking turnover machine? What?
The numbers don't say that Daniel Jones looks pretty damn good. They don't say that at all.
He’s shown enough on the field and has all the intangible stuff they want in New York.
We can talk about it all we want. My personal view is a new front office should be allowed to do whatever they think is best. But that is not how the Giants are run.
I would put the chances of actually drafting another QB and moving on from Jones at literally 0%. It will not happen. That kind of move is an ownership decision, ownership is not going to push the kid out.
To be honest I think the Giants are in line with most of the league in this regard. Quarterback is too high profile and too important for most owners to remain hands off. I’m not even sure Belichick has final say over QB, by all accounts Brady has a lot of pull with Kraft and may have already been retained primarily because Kraft intervened.
was given total autonomy to rebuild this roster. I feel he was given orders to not draft a QB in 2018 and to try to add pieces around Eli for one more run. I also feel that completely flipped this year and he was told to bring in next QB no matter what.
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
What is this meme that everything revolved around Manning? That notion has taken hold here despite evidence to the contrary.
If anything, the plan was to turn the Giants into the 2017 Vikings who led the league in rushing behind a move-the-chains-passer who never threw the ball past 15 yards and a stout defense. If you will recall, the OC of that team was one Pat Shurmur.
So, we kept the 100 million in defensive players from the McAdoo era, there was all this talk of "hog mollies", Hernandez, a supposed mauler, was drafted, we spend the #2 pick on a rb, trade up for Lauletta, a Keenum clone, installed Halapio, a larger center than Richburg, and install Shurmur's Andy Reid circa Eagles offense to which Manning is ill-suited. Do those sound like moves centering on Manning?
It didn't work out. Shurmur turned out to be a dunce and every bit the failure he was in Cleveland (a continuing trend this season), the defense wasn't good enough to sustain a running-based offense, OBJ hated the nickel and dime offense, got hurt and then decided it was not worth his time and trouble to keep playing, Lauletta turned out to be a complete bust not worth putting out on the field.
So, time to double down. Get rid of the defensive players who failed you for pennies on the dollar, get Zeitler, get Remmers (who came from surprise, that Minnesota team), get rid of OBJ who was extraneous to the run-run-short pass vision anyway, get Tate, a supposed move-the-chains guy, you still had the rb, spend the 6th pick of the draft on a Super-Keenum and off you go. Does any of that sound Manning-centric?
Well here we are. Unfortunately, none of it worked out. You still had the boob as a HC, the second year guys you were counting on to fulfill the vision had bad years, the defense was a sieve which sent the running game based vision out the window, and super-Keenum turned out to be closer to the real Case Keenum than anticipated.
I think Gettleman had a vision; I do not think it was Manning-centric at all, and I think Shurmur's total incompetence and Gettleman's impatience wrecked it or at least prevented its enactment.
Jones hasn't done anything to deserve being on scholarship with ownership.
Jones was not particularly good this year. That's a fact. I like him and I think he can play, but thinking he can play is no reason for ownership to require that he be the QB going forward.
If we hire someone to run the show and they think Jones should be the QB, I'm fine moving forward with him. But the new guy(s) have to decide that...not Mara. And I suspect, based on his level of play and the potential opportunity to draft Burrow, that a new guy may want to pursue Burrow.
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7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
+1
And for all you people who consistently say that we as laypersons don't know as much as GMs or coaches, well, I think we would run the Giants differently. This should go to show you that just because these guys are in these positions doesn't mean they are infallible (or in Shurmur's or DSG's cases, even good at their jobs).
How many coaches and GM's need to leave the Patriots and fail at their next stop before people get it through their thick heads that its all Bill Belichick there?
I doubt Gettleman is going anywhere. Its nice to want someone fired until you have to replace them. Its not easy to find good GM's. You're more than likely stuck with Gettleman for another season unless a viable candidate appears, which is unlikely.
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You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
He's 68 years old. He's a finished product as a human being; these are his methods.
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7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
For what it is worth, Kiper was just on ESPN and said - literally - that he has watched every Daniel Jones throw this year, and he is confident that the the Giants have found their next franchise QB. Could he be wrong? Sure. But take that for what it is worth.
Even with a new GM, I do not see the Giants dumping Jones like the Cards did with Rosen. Especially if they are sitting there with a chance to grab Chase Young.
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In comment 14712567 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
i agree. the OL is in shambles and he never even had all of his weapons at the same time. kid is going to be fine. people forget he is a rookie.
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7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
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In comment 14712582 ryanmkeane said:
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7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
Have they? The proof appears to be in the pudding: they're the worst team in the league over the past 3 seasons.
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In comment 14712587 Go Terps said:
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In comment 14712582 ryanmkeane said:
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7 games with Gettleman/Shurmur. The only positive really is we seem to have found our franchise QB and some of the draft picks have been nice. That's really all you can point to in their 2 years together.
I'm not sure on Jones being a franchise QB. If Gettleman is out the door I'm not sure his replacement will be either.
I get your wait and see attitude about Jones, but based on what I read on here, you don't think the Giants have made a right move in the past 5 years...period.
Have they? The proof appears to be in the pudding: they're the worst team in the league over the past 3 seasons.
ok? shit happens dude. this year was a learning year for jones...did you expect to win?
the last three years we were dealing with a declinging, aging QB and this year a rookie.
it happens....teams go through this shit. hopefully jones is that guy and we get out of it. you are just miserable and dont like a single thing the giants do. i really think you should go root for another team man so you can smile some
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
Someone would have traded for him. He'd been a top 3 WR for years. Easy to say nobody would have traded for him, but that's not true.
And if he did "act like a good citizen", and the front office fell for it, then that's STILL on them if you don't know the player you've had in your building for 4 years. Either way, it's on the front office, ownership included.
FWIW, I think the two biggest failures on the coaching staff are Betcher and the OL coach.
These are the units that are making the same mistakes over and over week in and week out. The things Balldinger keeps saying CAN'T HAPPEN. Sure the back 7 have only one quality starter, a bunch of kids, and some old retreads, but these players don't work in this scheme. And it's not clear Betcher has tried to modify it to fit what he has.
Similarly, the still-in-progress OL rebuild consists of two keepers and 3 JAGs, and like the D, they have no clue what they're supposed to be doing either. As Balldinger says: This shouldn't be happening. They've been playing with each other all year. None of them are rookies. WTF are they being coached to do? Or NOT coached to do.
Not EVERYONE on the OL or the back 7 on D can be brainless idiots. The law of averages alone would dictate otherwise.
But the buck stops with Shurmer.
Yeah but how was that dead money handicapping him? He still made difficult to defend FA acquisitions that likely would have occurred regardless of cap space.
Hell, maybe the contracts he doled out would have been even sillier with more cap space.
I was never sold on Shurmur. I thought he was brought here similar to an interim CEO during a bankruptcy to keep the lights on until things got sorted out and then moved on. Turns out he's now contributing to the bankruptcy because the Giants expectation is that the team would play better for him as the season moves along and win games. They haven't done that. We've seen the 2nd year guys all regress. This will cost him his job.
But if you are Mara, and you try to pull yourself away from the emotion, games are won and lost in the 4th quarter in the NFL. It has always been that way. And games are won there thanks to coaching and talent, and I'd argue that coaching might well be more important to make the in game adjustments to put your team in position to win. You can't tell me the Eagle had better talent on the field than the Giants last night. They didn't. They were probably actually worse. Pederson coached circles around Shurmur and confused him on when to take time outs. It was almost childish.
Let's look at the scores going into/early the 4th quarter of games since the Vikings game. All of which, as we know, the Giants lost
- @ Patriots- down 7
- vs Cardinals- down 3
- @ Lions- down 5
- vs Cowboys- down 1
- @ Jets- up 3
- @ Bears- down 12
- vs. Packers- down 4
- @ Eagles- up 7
So that's 8 games and 8 losses where the Giants were within 1 score either way, and the Bears game in which was still within reach.
John Madden used to say winning is a great deodorant. You can make the argument that the roster was good enough to win because they were in all these games. That they lost all of them points to coaching.
A. A gm candidate they really love or
B. They hire a Coach that wants personel control to work with Abrams and DG slides into an executive role till he retires.
I don't think he is bad, but I would not be opposed to a complete overhaul, including him and his staff. They have shown no propensity for being able to evaluate OL (college or pro), for example. Dooes anyone really have confidence that he will get the OL right this offseason from the draft or FA perspective? I sure don't.
Dumping Odell - good move
Dumping OV - good move
Not signing LC to a massive contract - good move
Getting Zeitler - good move
Getting Barkley (maybe you over drafted him) - good move
I think you're basing your conclusion that Jones is no good on the fact that this particular management group has F'ed up a bunch of stuff and therefore can't get anything right.
It's a dark time and hard to be a fan of this team because, like you said, they are the worst team in football and have been for 3 years now. BUT - what little good light there is, let it shine bro. The hope is there that Jones will be a keeper.
Never in my life have I rooted for such a sure thing. It almost takes the drama out of rooting.
It's like rooting for the Warriors vs the Cavs with Durant on the team.
The vast majority of games are close, by design. Not getting the doors blown off by opponents just means the Giants are statistically in the realm of really bad, not wildly awful.
Was dumping OBJ post contract extension and eating dead money a good move?
Was not being able to trade LC for anything a good move?
These good moves are debatable.
I could just see Hal Hunter salivating over a new creative way to ruin a generational talent if we drafted Nelson instead...
Was dumping OBJ post contract extension and eating dead money a good move?
Was not being able to trade LC for anything a good move?
These good moves are debatable.
the OBJ move is not debatable AT ALL. cleveland will be lucky to get a third rounder for him if he keeps this shit up.
we will prob get a third round comp pick for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT we had better offers, plus the giants were probably going to tag him but things change. obj was probably in the giants plans long term hence the signing, then he goes on tv and talks shit about the franchise who just gave him 100 mill....things change and it was best to ship him out.
hindsight is perfect vision on the draft thing. barkley is a stud of a player and will be much better with a coach who can utilize him...
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
But why sign a guy to a max deal who is unable to fully participate? This stuff with his ankle & elbow has been limiting him from the second he got here. Damaged goods.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
Quote:
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
It's hard to imagine the Giants won't need several more good players and a better staff to be the 7-8 more win team required to get to the playoffs.
Maybe a better staff gets the Giants from dreadful to just bad. But that's a lousy goal.
Mara and Tisch need to build a plan for a championship, not just getting off the mat.
I wonder if he insists on a clean reboot. Gettleman out, Chris Mara out, et cetera.
I mean, he owns fifty percent of this asset that is clearly declining in value.
Is he going to put his foot down?
Is it possible that he buys a portion of the Mara stake so that he becomes majority owner?
His drama being off the team is a plus, and his contract being off the books will be a plus. Hence, why I didn’t outright call it terrible. But it’s certainly debatable.
This means that for the RIGHT candidate who requires full control of football operations, the Giants will now entertain it in a way that they have not in 40 years.
If the Giants are going to go for a Ron Rivera, then Gettleman stays.
If the Giants are going to try to go after a Lincoln Riley, Matt Rhule, or Jim Harbaugh (as examples), who won't come in the door for an interview unless they have that control, maybe they decide that is the right move and Gettleman has to go or gets demoted or whatever.
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
The last guy that took then to two Super Bowls was a walking turnover machine (as is Aaron Rodgers.)
Aaron Rodgers is a walking turnover machine? What?
The numbers don't say that Daniel Jones looks pretty damn good. They don't say that at all.
We can talk about it all we want. My personal view is a new front office should be allowed to do whatever they think is best. But that is not how the Giants are run.
I would put the chances of actually drafting another QB and moving on from Jones at literally 0%. It will not happen. That kind of move is an ownership decision, ownership is not going to push the kid out.
To be honest I think the Giants are in line with most of the league in this regard. Quarterback is too high profile and too important for most owners to remain hands off. I’m not even sure Belichick has final say over QB, by all accounts Brady has a lot of pull with Kraft and may have already been retained primarily because Kraft intervened.
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
If anything, the plan was to turn the Giants into the 2017 Vikings who led the league in rushing behind a move-the-chains-passer who never threw the ball past 15 yards and a stout defense. If you will recall, the OC of that team was one Pat Shurmur.
So, we kept the 100 million in defensive players from the McAdoo era, there was all this talk of "hog mollies", Hernandez, a supposed mauler, was drafted, we spend the #2 pick on a rb, trade up for Lauletta, a Keenum clone, installed Halapio, a larger center than Richburg, and install Shurmur's Andy Reid circa Eagles offense to which Manning is ill-suited. Do those sound like moves centering on Manning?
It didn't work out. Shurmur turned out to be a dunce and every bit the failure he was in Cleveland (a continuing trend this season), the defense wasn't good enough to sustain a running-based offense, OBJ hated the nickel and dime offense, got hurt and then decided it was not worth his time and trouble to keep playing, Lauletta turned out to be a complete bust not worth putting out on the field.
So, time to double down. Get rid of the defensive players who failed you for pennies on the dollar, get Zeitler, get Remmers (who came from surprise, that Minnesota team), get rid of OBJ who was extraneous to the run-run-short pass vision anyway, get Tate, a supposed move-the-chains guy, you still had the rb, spend the 6th pick of the draft on a Super-Keenum and off you go. Does any of that sound Manning-centric?
Well here we are. Unfortunately, none of it worked out. You still had the boob as a HC, the second year guys you were counting on to fulfill the vision had bad years, the defense was a sieve which sent the running game based vision out the window, and super-Keenum turned out to be closer to the real Case Keenum than anticipated.
I think Gettleman had a vision; I do not think it was Manning-centric at all, and I think Shurmur's total incompetence and Gettleman's impatience wrecked it or at least prevented its enactment.
Jones was not particularly good this year. That's a fact. I like him and I think he can play, but thinking he can play is no reason for ownership to require that he be the QB going forward.
If we hire someone to run the show and they think Jones should be the QB, I'm fine moving forward with him. But the new guy(s) have to decide that...not Mara. And I suspect, based on his level of play and the potential opportunity to draft Burrow, that a new guy may want to pursue Burrow.