The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
you have the benfit of hindsight.
first off bethea, stewart, omameh signings didnt stop us from getting anyone else....they were stop gaps and roster fillers.
solder was a quality LT at time of signing
keeping manning on the books? so you just cut a two time super bowl champion because you drafted a rookie? the plan was eli plays out his contract(he EARNED that) and jones takes over after him...thats not a bad move by DG lol
Agree to disagree. The OBJ move is debatable. We took a big dead money hit for him, and I’m not sure the return was great. Also, I’m certain the absence of OBJ and having to scheme for him, hurt Barkley big time this season.
His drama being off the team is a plus, and his contract being off the books will be a plus. Hence, why I didn’t outright call it terrible. But it’s certainly debatable.
His picks are starting to show up. Only two years in. If next year they all fall flat then you have an argument.
There is a chance the 2019 draft may yield 5 starters which would be an epic success.
Are they only starters on an awful team? Or would they legitimately be starters on other teams? I'm not convinced that 5 players from the 2019 class are starters on other teams.
if his presence prevents quality HC's from being interested.
In addition all his pubic statements about building a roster ready to compete have blown up in his face (that's an understatement). He's at retirement age anyway. When you have worked in a competitive environment for 50 yrs, it a rare person that when they turn 70, can keep functioning at their highest level.
Were very very high on Jones in predraft processes. So if the Pats braintrust or members of that group come here as a GM or HC there’s no assumption they’ll want to jettison Jones.
He’s a rookie, he’s played like a rookie. I would say he’s played pretty damn well overall on a bad team with bad coaching. John Mara probably loves the kid and has no real reason to move on based on what we’ve seen. He’s certainly had a better year than Rosen did as a rookie since everyone likes to cite the Cardinals decision to move on immediately.
If a new exec came in and said listen, Jones is ok but Burrow is literally Peyton Manning 2.0, he might get Mara’s attention but I don’t think anyone can plausibly make that case, certainly not strongly enough to get the Giants to move on it.
Burrow has had a tremendous year on a great team, but I don’t think many talent evaluators are going to bang on the table for this kid and say you have to draft him he’s the future of the NFL when you have a young QB in house. If he’s only marginally better than Jones it’s a mistake to move on from Jones for Burrow. If he’s the same or worse it’s very big mistake and a huge missed opportunity to improve elsewhere.
Can you say definitively that he’s better? What’s the most likely outcome? It’s very hard for me to believe that the most likely scenario is that Burrow is a much better pro than Jones.
They’ll keep Jones and draft another piece. Hopefully Chase Young, if not him someone else.
he seems pretty capable at drafting players, he just sucks at every other part of being a GM. I wish we could reduce his role to picking players in the draft and that's it.
Jones hasn't done anything to deserve being on scholarship with ownership.
Jones was not particularly good this year. That's a fact. I like him and I think he can play, but thinking he can play is no reason for ownership to require that he be the QB going forward.
If we hire someone to run the show and they think Jones should be the QB, I'm fine moving forward with him. But the new guy(s) have to decide that...not Mara. And I suspect, based on his level of play and the potential opportunity to draft Burrow, that a new guy may want to pursue Burrow.
I want to emphasize that with a new regime, they should be making the decisions on their own. We are an awful team. We aren't good enough to have any sacred cows. Every single player should be judged by the new staff with zero influence by ownership. They can all go to slaughter. We are more than capable losing without them.
Here's the question any incoming GM/head coach is going to have to ask about Jones: "Assuming he doesn't get hurt, in 2 years am I going to want to pay him $40M a year for 4 years?"
That's what happened with Goff and Wentz. It's about to happen with Prescott.
If the answer to that question is not an immediate and resounding "YES!", then going in a different direction at QB has to be an option on the table.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
how is the good trade of OBJ offset by the dead cap hit which is going ot be gone? we got at least two solid players out of it and OBJ is a jerkoff who already wants out of cleveland. we WON that trade BY A WIDE MARGIN unless OBJ turns it around and peppers, lawerence, ximenes all fail. how this isnt a slam dunk high five to gettleman at this point is just laughable and shows the bias and hate for him.
i love the not trading so and so was a mistake. it TAKES TWO TEAMS. do you understyand that? do you understand if they dont get the value, they dont make the move. collins is going to get the giants a 3 anyways and they were probably going to tag him anyways until he bitched and they decided against it. this isnt madden guys, shit is fluid. things change day to day.
This is a crucial time for this franchise. They need to change their ways. If Caserio is really available this offseason the Giants need to do whatever it takes to land him.
RE: That certainly wouldn’t fit the narrative about the Mara s Â
Espoused by many here even though they did exactly that after 2017!
Not entirely. In 2017, the GM who was let go had already survived one full coaching staff changeover. This would be a stunning change of SOP for Mara.
I'll believe it when I see it, and I'll champion it if it comes with a genuine effort to embrace new voices and real change. But I'm skeptical that this is at all likely until proven otherwise.
But he deserves another year. He had 30 million in dead money each of the last two seasons.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
Enough already - HE CREATED THE MAJORITY OF THAT DEAD MONEY!
And citing a dismissal of data as a positive is absolutely absurd. DG is a fucking liability, and his instincts are brutal. He should trust common sense instead.
His picks are starting to show up. Only two years in. If next year they all fall flat then you have an argument.
You mean like last year's picks, who are already falling flat? Or does he keep getting a tack-on year for every rookie class that looks promising while the ADHD segment of the fanbase fellates themselves over the potential of guys who haven't failed yet?
You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
Khalil Mack was traded without a long-term deal in place and the Raiders got more in return for him than the Giants did for Beckham. Some of that is positional value - something that DG would never subscribe to anyway - but clearly Mack's contract status wasn't an insurmountable drag on his trade value.
i love the not trading so and so was a mistake. it TAKES TWO TEAMS. do you understyand that? do you understand if they dont get the value, they dont make the move. collins is going to get the giants a 3 anyways and they were probably going to tag him anyways until he bitched and they decided against it. this isnt madden guys, shit is fluid. things change day to day.
Well, per Eric, there was at least one deal on the table for Engram, before this year's trade deadline, and DG wouldn't budge despite staring at first round comp. For a player who has spent a lot of time on the sideline and is becoming less and less dependable, you have to make that move.
And there was definitely a market last year for LC but it appeared DG had a price tag on LC that was too high. Assuming it was the Chiefs third, that was a better third than the compensation pick.
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
Don't torture yourself. This "we were close until ______________" is a 70's era argument. Bad teams contrive ways to lose games. Close scores don't mean anything; they are still bad teams.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
Nelson was never a realistic alternative to Barkley according to all reports. It was Barkley or Darnold.
was given total autonomy to rebuild this roster. I feel he was given orders to not draft a QB in 2018 and to try to add pieces around Eli for one more run. I also feel that completely flipped this year and he was told to bring in next QB no matter what.
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
What is this meme that everything revolved around Manning? That notion has taken hold here despite evidence to the contrary.
If anything, the plan was to turn the Giants into the 2017 Vikings who led the league in rushing behind a move-the-chains-passer who never threw the ball past 15 yards and a stout defense. If you will recall, the OC of that team was one Pat Shurmur.
So, we kept the 100 million in defensive players from the McAdoo era, there was all this talk of "hog mollies", Hernandez, a supposed mauler, was drafted, we spend the #2 pick on a rb, trade up for Lauletta, a Keenum clone, installed Halapio, a larger center than Richburg, and install Shurmur's Andy Reid circa Eagles offense to which Manning is ill-suited. Do those sound like moves centering on Manning?
It didn't work out. Shurmur turned out to be a dunce and every bit the failure he was in Cleveland (a continuing trend this season), the defense wasn't good enough to sustain a running-based offense, OBJ hated the nickel and dime offense, got hurt and then decided it was not worth his time and trouble to keep playing, Lauletta turned out to be a complete bust not worth putting out on the field.
So, time to double down. Get rid of the defensive players who failed you for pennies on the dollar, get Zeitler, get Remmers (who came from surprise, that Minnesota team), get rid of OBJ who was extraneous to the run-run-short pass vision anyway, get Tate, a supposed move-the-chains guy, you still had the rb, spend the 6th pick of the draft on a Super-Keenum and off you go. Does any of that sound Manning-centric?
Well here we are. Unfortunately, none of it worked out. You still had the boob as a HC, the second year guys you were counting on to fulfill the vision had bad years, the defense was a sieve which sent the running game based vision out the window, and super-Keenum turned out to be closer to the real Case Keenum than anticipated.
I think Gettleman had a vision; I do not think it was Manning-centric at all, and I think Shurmur's total incompetence and Gettleman's impatience wrecked it or at least prevented its enactment.
.....in his first five years, the results were not that great. In fact, you could make the case those years were poor (except for drafting LT, and Phil Simms - who was hurt a ton in that time period).
Fast forward to DG's first two years as GM with NYG. Now, as people have stated, different era, free agency exists, etc. meaning turnaround time is expected to be quicker But I'm equating his first two years to GY's first five, and the results are similar, and of course don't look good.
But DG has a track record (like GY) and drafted a QB who looks the part (like GY).
I think Shurmur should be canned and GM allowed to pick another HC, and get a third year of drafting and free agency.
But the team needs to make a move next year - significant - for DG to keep his job.
The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
Nelson was never a realistic alternative to Barkley according to all reports. It was Barkley or Darnold.
Also, I'm with bw on Jones. I have seen a lot of things to make me optimistic. But, I don't get the blind faith that the fumbles will just be corrected. The problem here is the OL. How do you properly gauge Jones with this OL. This is not unlike the criticism for drafting Barkley without addressing the OL.
Now, the OL is still terrible. But, Gettleman (and Shurmer?) thought it was fixed. They thought Solder was the anchor LT for at least the next few years, that Hernandez was a road grader LG, Setiler was a top OG, and Remmers would solidify the right side. I have no clue to this day what they could be thinking about Halapio other than he is big. He NEVER showed anything to be optimistic about.
Solder we should have known better about. Anyone the Patriots let walk should be ignored. They have had uncanny success determining when it is time to move on from players. Even if it was 1 year early (not the case here), you can almost certainly count on that guy regressing badly. Hernandez showed flashes last year and there was reason for optimism. However, with Solder regressing and Halapio sucking, he is still a young OL left to his own devices a lot of the time and he isn't the road grader we expected. Halapio just flat out sucks and, to me, the biggest problem on the OL. We are constantly getting defenders in the backfield from the A gaps on running and passing plays. Zeitler has been solid, but he is hardly a top OG in the league...and that is the best we have to offer. Remmers has been even worse than Solder, if that is possible.
So, where does that leave us? One, in desparate need of a new OL coach because there is no development of young players, improvement from week to week, etc. Two, we have Barkley with the talent to be a top 5 RB in the league getting deemed a bust by some here because he can't take a handoff without 2-3 guys immediately in the backfield. We look like we will be wasting his best years health-wise; we may never see him at his fullest potential again. Similarly, we have a promising young QB who has gotten manhandled by constant and ridiculous pressure. While he has not seemed rattled, it is hard to gauge how he projects moving forward and hard to imagine that these beatings won't have a lasting effect.
To me, a lot of this also comes down to coaching from HC, to OC, to QB coach (or lack thereof), to OL coach, to RB coach, to DL, DC, etc. The entire staff should be fired. Gettleman, I am not sold one way or the other, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if he were fired. I just don't have confidence in the ownership hiring a legit GM in his stead.
Here's the question any incoming GM/head coach is going to have to ask about Jones: "Assuming he doesn't get hurt, in 2 years am I going to want to pay him $40M a year for 4 years?"
That's what happened with Goff and Wentz. It's about to happen with Prescott.
If the answer to that question is not an immediate and resounding "YES!", then going in a different direction at QB has to be an option on the table.
Honestly how have the "next big thing" QBs looked? They've all shown flashes of greatness certainly, but also been pretty meh. Injuries are certainly a factor (Wentz, Mahomes this season), but everyone who's supposed to come take the torch from Brady/Brees/Rodgers hasn't. And just look at last year's #1, after all the hype he generated compared to what he's done (and the Brown's on general) this year.
It's far too soon to say if DJ8 is the franchise QB. All the young QBs seem to be volatile. If a new GM wants his own QB he should be allowed to have his own QB.
That said even with a new GM I think Jones will be the QB through next season
No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
It's hard to imagine the Giants won't need several more good players and a better staff to be the 7-8 more win team required to get to the playoffs.
Maybe a better staff gets the Giants from dreadful to just bad. But that's a lousy goal.
Mara and Tisch need to build a plan for a championship, not just getting off the mat.
I think you mean the new GM needs to build the plan. Mara and Tisch have no clue.
They offered a bit contract.....the Giants just offered more.
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
Do we know that? Or do we know that Solder's agent leaked that? Does the Patriots typical behavior regarding aging vets who are starting to show their first cracks toward decline tell you that they definitely wanted him back at a price that was anywhere near what the Giants paid?
I think a lot of fans are taking some info that was strategically placed by NS's agent and believing it as gospel. Resigning Solder would have been a bit out of character for the Patriots, though I wouldn't put it past them to drive the price up to benefit their own comp pick situation.
bw....there were reports of offers for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT there were. plus, is it not possible giants planned to tag him, but he bitched and they were like okay, let him walk. this happened AFTER the trade deadline.
engram having offers for him is also just "reports" and frankly he is very talented player and i am sure they wanted jones to have some explosive players.
the biggest problem on this board is we take reports as fact and use hindsight in our arguments.
AT THE TIME. solder was the right move
AT THE TIME. obj was part of the plans
AT THE TIME. they felt collins was in the future plans or maybe worth more than a 3rd
we dont have a ton of information to go off of and i get we like to cry because we are depressed giant fans who are rooting for a losing team, but we shouldnt skew the reality saying there were "reports"
We as a forum dont have a good inside view of what goes on. we judge after there is a clear picture. you can pick apart EVERY GM IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME for bad moves. I think we should probably stick to just rooting for the team like fans instead of arguing EVERY move. sure DG has fucked up, we know this. He also has had two solid drafts....nobody wants to talk about those tho
Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
bw....there were reports of offers for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT there were. plus, is it not possible giants planned to tag him, but he bitched and they were like okay, let him walk. this happened AFTER the trade deadline.
engram having offers for him is also just "reports" and frankly he is very talented player and i am sure they wanted jones to have some explosive players.
the biggest problem on this board is we take reports as fact and use hindsight in our arguments.
AT THE TIME. solder was the right move
AT THE TIME. obj was part of the plans
AT THE TIME. they felt collins was in the future plans or maybe worth more than a 3rd
we dont have a ton of information to go off of and i get we like to cry because we are depressed giant fans who are rooting for a losing team, but we shouldnt skew the reality saying there were "reports"
We as a forum dont have a good inside view of what goes on. we judge after there is a clear picture. you can pick apart EVERY GM IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME for bad moves. I think we should probably stick to just rooting for the team like fans instead of arguing EVERY move. sure DG has fucked up, we know this. He also has had two solid drafts....nobody wants to talk about those tho
You seem to be posting a lot more frequently lately. Maybe McL has a valid point.
Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
They offered a bit contract.....the Giants just offered more.
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
Solder made a passing comment the offers were close, and there was speculation in the Boston media the Pats weren't offering significant guaranteed money.
The Pats had a number of mechanisms to ensure he stayed, instead they let him walk and then won a Super Bowl with his replacement.
The Pats, a team in championship window, had the patience to let it play out. The Giants, a team at the bottom of the barrel didn't.
There is no single action that epitomizes the difference between a winner and a loser than the Nate Solder deal.
Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
It depends on who is available. There were not a lot of good options available when we hired Shurmur. I say keep Gettleman and hire Rivera, who is at worst a highly competent coach, upgrade the pro scouting department (hopefully this will lead to better FA moves).
You would want to see the arrow pointing up with regards to the young players. You keep referencing the 2018 draft, but you can actually make the argument that all of those draftees have regressed in year 2.
I don't see how Shurmus survives this disaster of a season
Belcher is no better the staff needs to go period now
many here feel DG should go as well granted he has three
Free agent disasters . The biggest being Nate Soldier I don't
think anyone thought he would fall off a cliff . Remmers
was a stopgap signing who is pretty much shot .
On the other hand Marcus Golden has been outstanding and
he hustles . I feel his drafts have been pretty solid even
the Patriots have had some pretty poor draft picks .
My question is who would be and adequate replacement
for him they don't grow on trees .
Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
I expected a former scout to be able to correctly assess the talent level of his roster and map out his strategy accordingly. I expected a professional who knows how roster construction and cap economics work. I expected a negotiator who places a value on each transaction and walks when he doesn't get his price. I expected a GM who doesn't get bent over like fresh fish in Attica every time he makes a trade.
Would that be a fair starting point?
RE: RE: I'd been in Gettlemans corner until last night...... Â
watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
every team “has a running back”. It’s the easiest position in the league to fill.
Myth. Not every team has a great running back. Not even close actually. And the teams that do run well are doing so because of coaching, qb play and OL.
Imagine having a great rb within a great system and qb... try it out.
If the giants ever become a good team again, Barkley will be everyone’s favorite player. He’s the engine.
Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
I expected a former scout to be able to correctly assess the talent level of his roster and map out his strategy accordingly. I expected a professional who knows how roster construction and cap economics work. I expected a negotiator who places a value on each transaction and walks when he doesn't get his price. I expected a GM who doesn't get bent over like fresh fish in Attica every time he makes a trade.
Would that be a fair starting point?
youre right to expect competency. I just think DG gets a lot of heat thats misplaced. Im not in love with the job he has done, but his drafts have been solid and im eager to see how they turn out. We also dont know what he is up against, Mara could have made it clear one last run with eli so Dg did whaetver he could to throw some vets around him to try and win. now, we have a franchise QB, a solid RB, a ton of youth especially in the secondary. with another offseason, he can continue to shape the roster. i think the DG hate is probably premature, it takes time to undo the shit show that was the reese roster. thats a guy who didnt draft well at all for 6 straight years outside of the first round or two
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
you have the benfit of hindsight.
first off bethea, stewart, omameh signings didnt stop us from getting anyone else....they were stop gaps and roster fillers.
solder was a quality LT at time of signing
keeping manning on the books? so you just cut a two time super bowl champion because you drafted a rookie? the plan was eli plays out his contract(he EARNED that) and jones takes over after him...thats not a bad move by DG lol
His drama being off the team is a plus, and his contract being off the books will be a plus. Hence, why I didn’t outright call it terrible. But it’s certainly debatable.
Not debatable at all. We sold high in this case!
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His picks are starting to show up. Only two years in. If next year they all fall flat then you have an argument.
There is a chance the 2019 draft may yield 5 starters which would be an epic success.
Are they only starters on an awful team? Or would they legitimately be starters on other teams? I'm not convinced that 5 players from the 2019 class are starters on other teams.
In addition all his pubic statements about building a roster ready to compete have blown up in his face (that's an understatement). He's at retirement age anyway. When you have worked in a competitive environment for 50 yrs, it a rare person that when they turn 70, can keep functioning at their highest level.
If a new exec came in and said listen, Jones is ok but Burrow is literally Peyton Manning 2.0, he might get Mara’s attention but I don’t think anyone can plausibly make that case, certainly not strongly enough to get the Giants to move on it.
Burrow has had a tremendous year on a great team, but I don’t think many talent evaluators are going to bang on the table for this kid and say you have to draft him he’s the future of the NFL when you have a young QB in house. If he’s only marginally better than Jones it’s a mistake to move on from Jones for Burrow. If he’s the same or worse it’s very big mistake and a huge missed opportunity to improve elsewhere.
Can you say definitively that he’s better? What’s the most likely outcome? It’s very hard for me to believe that the most likely scenario is that Burrow is a much better pro than Jones.
They’ll keep Jones and draft another piece. Hopefully Chase Young, if not him someone else.
Fuck that
Jones was not particularly good this year. That's a fact. I like him and I think he can play, but thinking he can play is no reason for ownership to require that he be the QB going forward.
If we hire someone to run the show and they think Jones should be the QB, I'm fine moving forward with him. But the new guy(s) have to decide that...not Mara. And I suspect, based on his level of play and the potential opportunity to draft Burrow, that a new guy may want to pursue Burrow.
I want to emphasize that with a new regime, they should be making the decisions on their own. We are an awful team. We aren't good enough to have any sacred cows. Every single player should be judged by the new staff with zero influence by ownership. They can all go to slaughter. We are more than capable losing without them.
Here's the question any incoming GM/head coach is going to have to ask about Jones: "Assuming he doesn't get hurt, in 2 years am I going to want to pay him $40M a year for 4 years?"
That's what happened with Goff and Wentz. It's about to happen with Prescott.
If the answer to that question is not an immediate and resounding "YES!", then going in a different direction at QB has to be an option on the table.
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
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The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
how is the good trade of OBJ offset by the dead cap hit which is going ot be gone? we got at least two solid players out of it and OBJ is a jerkoff who already wants out of cleveland. we WON that trade BY A WIDE MARGIN unless OBJ turns it around and peppers, lawerence, ximenes all fail. how this isnt a slam dunk high five to gettleman at this point is just laughable and shows the bias and hate for him.
i love the not trading so and so was a mistake. it TAKES TWO TEAMS. do you understyand that? do you understand if they dont get the value, they dont make the move. collins is going to get the giants a 3 anyways and they were probably going to tag him anyways until he bitched and they decided against it. this isnt madden guys, shit is fluid. things change day to day.
Not entirely. In 2017, the GM who was let go had already survived one full coaching staff changeover. This would be a stunning change of SOP for Mara.
I'll believe it when I see it, and I'll champion it if it comes with a genuine effort to embrace new voices and real change. But I'm skeptical that this is at all likely until proven otherwise.
His biggest strength can also be his biggest weakness. He thought Barkley was a generational talent and drafted him even though it made no sense to draft your star RB before you have a QB and OL.
He loved Leonard W and just traded for him, even though it made no sense to give up a third and likely fourth in a lost season on a guy who was going to be a FA.
But DG trusts his instincts and goes against analytics. If he can find a better balance, I still think he can be a good GM.
Enough already - HE CREATED THE MAJORITY OF THAT DEAD MONEY!
And citing a dismissal of data as a positive is absolutely absurd. DG is a fucking liability, and his instincts are brutal. He should trust common sense instead.
You mean like last year's picks, who are already falling flat? Or does he keep getting a tack-on year for every rookie class that looks promising while the ADHD segment of the fanbase fellates themselves over the potential of guys who haven't failed yet?
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In comment 14712580 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 14712567 Ten Ton Hammer said:
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You don't pull the trigger on that contract unless you're sure.
If you're not sure, you trade him. You don't sign him to a contract, THEN trade him. The resulting punitive cap hit is a big glowing sign that reads "WE MISMANAGED THIS".
okay and that shouldnt JUST fall on DG. if anything Mara is to blame for the OBJ debacle. that being said....is it better they admit to a mistake and cut ties early while he still had value? i think so. imagine if we still had him?!? he wouldnt be doing shit and he would be bitching openly again....and what would we get for him? watch what the browns net on this shit. that entire OBJ thing is an easy win for DG, MAra and the giants...it isnt even debatable
Without knowing how much input Mara had on signing him or not, It's the GM who went on tour swearing they didn't have any intent to trade him.
This isn't an argument on whether they should have traded him or not. That's old ground. The point is that they botched it. He could have been off the team WITHOUT the massive cap hit.
who would trade for him without a deal in place ? he was gauranteed under contract when traded.
of course DG is going to say we didnt sign to trade. whats he gonna say, well we are split on wether or not OBJ is a buiulding block, we are going to give him long term money but if he does one more thing he is out?
its GM speak. he isnt going to give any info away. the fact is the OBJ thing went south because he is a jerkoff who acted for a little he was a good citizen. we won that regardless....we got 2 solid defensive pieces and a situational pass rusher in his rookie year and OBJ already wants off the browns.
Khalil Mack was traded without a long-term deal in place and the Raiders got more in return for him than the Giants did for Beckham. Some of that is positional value - something that DG would never subscribe to anyway - but clearly Mack's contract status wasn't an insurmountable drag on his trade value.
i love the not trading so and so was a mistake. it TAKES TWO TEAMS. do you understyand that? do you understand if they dont get the value, they dont make the move. collins is going to get the giants a 3 anyways and they were probably going to tag him anyways until he bitched and they decided against it. this isnt madden guys, shit is fluid. things change day to day.
Well, per Eric, there was at least one deal on the table for Engram, before this year's trade deadline, and DG wouldn't budge despite staring at first round comp. For a player who has spent a lot of time on the sideline and is becoming less and less dependable, you have to make that move.
And there was definitely a market last year for LC but it appeared DG had a price tag on LC that was too high. Assuming it was the Chiefs third, that was a better third than the compensation pick.
So there were active, available partners.
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No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
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The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
I could have lived with a QB, Edge, OL...
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was given total autonomy to rebuild this roster. I feel he was given orders to not draft a QB in 2018 and to try to add pieces around Eli for one more run. I also feel that completely flipped this year and he was told to bring in next QB no matter what.
I think resigning Odell was forced on DG and the reason he pushed for the trade was because he was bringing in a QB and wanted to make life easy for him amd have the assests to get the QB he needed.
What is this meme that everything revolved around Manning? That notion has taken hold here despite evidence to the contrary.
If anything, the plan was to turn the Giants into the 2017 Vikings who led the league in rushing behind a move-the-chains-passer who never threw the ball past 15 yards and a stout defense. If you will recall, the OC of that team was one Pat Shurmur.
So, we kept the 100 million in defensive players from the McAdoo era, there was all this talk of "hog mollies", Hernandez, a supposed mauler, was drafted, we spend the #2 pick on a rb, trade up for Lauletta, a Keenum clone, installed Halapio, a larger center than Richburg, and install Shurmur's Andy Reid circa Eagles offense to which Manning is ill-suited. Do those sound like moves centering on Manning?
It didn't work out. Shurmur turned out to be a dunce and every bit the failure he was in Cleveland (a continuing trend this season), the defense wasn't good enough to sustain a running-based offense, OBJ hated the nickel and dime offense, got hurt and then decided it was not worth his time and trouble to keep playing, Lauletta turned out to be a complete bust not worth putting out on the field.
So, time to double down. Get rid of the defensive players who failed you for pennies on the dollar, get Zeitler, get Remmers (who came from surprise, that Minnesota team), get rid of OBJ who was extraneous to the run-run-short pass vision anyway, get Tate, a supposed move-the-chains guy, you still had the rb, spend the 6th pick of the draft on a Super-Keenum and off you go. Does any of that sound Manning-centric?
Well here we are. Unfortunately, none of it worked out. You still had the boob as a HC, the second year guys you were counting on to fulfill the vision had bad years, the defense was a sieve which sent the running game based vision out the window, and super-Keenum turned out to be closer to the real Case Keenum than anticipated.
I think Gettleman had a vision; I do not think it was Manning-centric at all, and I think Shurmur's total incompetence and Gettleman's impatience wrecked it or at least prevented its enactment.
Trade up for Lauletta?
I'll worry about BleedBlue when he learns how to use his fucking shift key.
I'll worry about BleedBlue when he learns how to use his fucking shift key.
Fast forward to DG's first two years as GM with NYG. Now, as people have stated, different era, free agency exists, etc. meaning turnaround time is expected to be quicker But I'm equating his first two years to GY's first five, and the results are similar, and of course don't look good.
But DG has a track record (like GY) and drafted a QB who looks the part (like GY).
I think Shurmur should be canned and GM allowed to pick another HC, and get a third year of drafting and free agency.
But the team needs to make a move next year - significant - for DG to keep his job.
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In comment 14712747 Keaton028 said:
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The good: drafting Slayton, Dexter Lawrence, signing Markus Golden, drafting Jones
Debatable: drafting Barkley over Nelson, the OBJ trade post giving him a new contract, drafting Baker, Hernandez, Connelly, OV trade
The Bad: LW trade, keeping Eli on the books after Jones draft, signing Golden Tate to good money, also giving SS a new contract, Lauletta pick, Nate Solder, Patrick Omameh, Johnathan Stewart, hiring PS, picks for Ogletree, Bethea signing
I’m sure I’m missing things
I'd adjust your list in a few ways...
Jones has to be in your debatable category. The jury is still out. I keep reading where he can improve his propensity to turn the ball over with coaching, practice, off-season, etc. Really? I don't think that's a given. For all of Eli's supposed football intelligence, and his resources, he was a turnover machine from the get-go. So that's a serious red flag right now, especially because his turnovers are leading to too many points the other way...
Trading OBJ was good, but that is offset by signing him beforehand.
The Snacks trade is debatable.
Barkley is bad because of draft strategy.
Not trading LC last year was bad. And not trading Engram this year - per Eric supposedly there was a first round pick on the board - was an enormous mistake.
I think the Stewart signing is overrated around here. There are a lot of other more glaring errors by DG. I was bullish on Stewart for one reason - I thought he could be a positive in pass protection. But he just fell of a cliff. But is was It only $3M in guaranteed money - not a big hit.
Agree on Shurmur. That was a huge miss with big ramifications.
Nelson was never a realistic alternative to Barkley according to all reports. It was Barkley or Darnold.
Now, the OL is still terrible. But, Gettleman (and Shurmer?) thought it was fixed. They thought Solder was the anchor LT for at least the next few years, that Hernandez was a road grader LG, Setiler was a top OG, and Remmers would solidify the right side. I have no clue to this day what they could be thinking about Halapio other than he is big. He NEVER showed anything to be optimistic about.
Solder we should have known better about. Anyone the Patriots let walk should be ignored. They have had uncanny success determining when it is time to move on from players. Even if it was 1 year early (not the case here), you can almost certainly count on that guy regressing badly. Hernandez showed flashes last year and there was reason for optimism. However, with Solder regressing and Halapio sucking, he is still a young OL left to his own devices a lot of the time and he isn't the road grader we expected. Halapio just flat out sucks and, to me, the biggest problem on the OL. We are constantly getting defenders in the backfield from the A gaps on running and passing plays. Zeitler has been solid, but he is hardly a top OG in the league...and that is the best we have to offer. Remmers has been even worse than Solder, if that is possible.
So, where does that leave us? One, in desparate need of a new OL coach because there is no development of young players, improvement from week to week, etc. Two, we have Barkley with the talent to be a top 5 RB in the league getting deemed a bust by some here because he can't take a handoff without 2-3 guys immediately in the backfield. We look like we will be wasting his best years health-wise; we may never see him at his fullest potential again. Similarly, we have a promising young QB who has gotten manhandled by constant and ridiculous pressure. While he has not seemed rattled, it is hard to gauge how he projects moving forward and hard to imagine that these beatings won't have a lasting effect.
To me, a lot of this also comes down to coaching from HC, to OC, to QB coach (or lack thereof), to OL coach, to RB coach, to DL, DC, etc. The entire staff should be fired. Gettleman, I am not sold one way or the other, but I certainly wouldn't be upset if he were fired. I just don't have confidence in the ownership hiring a legit GM in his stead.
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
Here's the question any incoming GM/head coach is going to have to ask about Jones: "Assuming he doesn't get hurt, in 2 years am I going to want to pay him $40M a year for 4 years?"
That's what happened with Goff and Wentz. It's about to happen with Prescott.
If the answer to that question is not an immediate and resounding "YES!", then going in a different direction at QB has to be an option on the table.
Honestly how have the "next big thing" QBs looked? They've all shown flashes of greatness certainly, but also been pretty meh. Injuries are certainly a factor (Wentz, Mahomes this season), but everyone who's supposed to come take the torch from Brady/Brees/Rodgers hasn't. And just look at last year's #1, after all the hype he generated compared to what he's done (and the Brown's on general) this year.
It's far too soon to say if DJ8 is the franchise QB. All the young QBs seem to be volatile. If a new GM wants his own QB he should be allowed to have his own QB.
That said even with a new GM I think Jones will be the QB through next season
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
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In comment 14712699 Keaton028 said:
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No offense, but if we’re measuring success by whether we have a puncher’s chance in the 4th qtr, we’re doing it wrong. Both the HC and GM have failed, unfortunately.
Punchers chance is down 2 TDs in the 4th and they can come back. In the majority of these games, it was a 1 score game. Not a blowout. The Giants as an organization, historically, don't blow teams out. I did a game review a while ago where I found that since 1979, in over 640 games, the Giants have "blown out" a team (by 4 TDs) only 20 times. Most games go down to the wire in the NFL. The Giants can't figure out how to win any of them.
Like I said, I think Shurmur is getting fired and deserves to be fired. If Gettleman gets fired or "retires", I'm not exactly going to shed a tear, but I also think with the right coach, can find a way to win.
It's hard to imagine the Giants won't need several more good players and a better staff to be the 7-8 more win team required to get to the playoffs.
Maybe a better staff gets the Giants from dreadful to just bad. But that's a lousy goal.
Mara and Tisch need to build a plan for a championship, not just getting off the mat.
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
Do we know that? Or do we know that Solder's agent leaked that? Does the Patriots typical behavior regarding aging vets who are starting to show their first cracks toward decline tell you that they definitely wanted him back at a price that was anywhere near what the Giants paid?
I think a lot of fans are taking some info that was strategically placed by NS's agent and believing it as gospel. Resigning Solder would have been a bit out of character for the Patriots, though I wouldn't put it past them to drive the price up to benefit their own comp pick situation.
bw....there were reports of offers for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT there were. plus, is it not possible giants planned to tag him, but he bitched and they were like okay, let him walk. this happened AFTER the trade deadline.
engram having offers for him is also just "reports" and frankly he is very talented player and i am sure they wanted jones to have some explosive players.
the biggest problem on this board is we take reports as fact and use hindsight in our arguments.
AT THE TIME. solder was the right move
AT THE TIME. obj was part of the plans
AT THE TIME. they felt collins was in the future plans or maybe worth more than a 3rd
we dont have a ton of information to go off of and i get we like to cry because we are depressed giant fans who are rooting for a losing team, but we shouldnt skew the reality saying there were "reports"
We as a forum dont have a good inside view of what goes on. we judge after there is a clear picture. you can pick apart EVERY GM IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME for bad moves. I think we should probably stick to just rooting for the team like fans instead of arguing EVERY move. sure DG has fucked up, we know this. He also has had two solid drafts....nobody wants to talk about those tho
bw....there were reports of offers for collins, we dont KNOW FOR A FACT there were. plus, is it not possible giants planned to tag him, but he bitched and they were like okay, let him walk. this happened AFTER the trade deadline.
engram having offers for him is also just "reports" and frankly he is very talented player and i am sure they wanted jones to have some explosive players.
the biggest problem on this board is we take reports as fact and use hindsight in our arguments.
AT THE TIME. solder was the right move
AT THE TIME. obj was part of the plans
AT THE TIME. they felt collins was in the future plans or maybe worth more than a 3rd
we dont have a ton of information to go off of and i get we like to cry because we are depressed giant fans who are rooting for a losing team, but we shouldnt skew the reality saying there were "reports"
We as a forum dont have a good inside view of what goes on. we judge after there is a clear picture. you can pick apart EVERY GM IN THE HISTORY OF THE GAME for bad moves. I think we should probably stick to just rooting for the team like fans instead of arguing EVERY move. sure DG has fucked up, we know this. He also has had two solid drafts....nobody wants to talk about those tho
You seem to be posting a lot more frequently lately. Maybe McL has a valid point.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
There's a breaking point, but the Pats definitely wanted him back.
Solder made a passing comment the offers were close, and there was speculation in the Boston media the Pats weren't offering significant guaranteed money.
The Pats had a number of mechanisms to ensure he stayed, instead they let him walk and then won a Super Bowl with his replacement.
The Pats, a team in championship window, had the patience to let it play out. The Giants, a team at the bottom of the barrel didn't.
There is no single action that epitomizes the difference between a winner and a loser than the Nate Solder deal.
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Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
+1. Go big and bold. the half measure bullshit isnt cutting it. Gettleman is a complete laughingstock.
UNLESS - Someone great is available this year.
That the fear but I think ownership may just actually have seen enough. This is impacting the bottom line.
Belcher is no better the staff needs to go period now
many here feel DG should go as well granted he has three
Free agent disasters . The biggest being Nate Soldier I don't
think anyone thought he would fall off a cliff . Remmers
was a stopgap signing who is pretty much shot .
On the other hand Marcus Golden has been outstanding and
he hustles . I feel his drafts have been pretty solid even
the Patriots have had some pretty poor draft picks .
My question is who would be and adequate replacement
for him they don't grow on trees .
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In comment 14713122 figgy2989 said:
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Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
I expected a former scout to be able to correctly assess the talent level of his roster and map out his strategy accordingly. I expected a professional who knows how roster construction and cap economics work. I expected a negotiator who places a value on each transaction and walks when he doesn't get his price. I expected a GM who doesn't get bent over like fresh fish in Attica every time he makes a trade.
Would that be a fair starting point?
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watching Ogletree and Mayo look like Laurel and Hardy and Solder look like roadkill just irked me. The plan he had in Jan of 2018 has had no improvement. Maybe we have our next QB. Maybe we have a running back. Other than that its as clear as mud. Sorry, the only clear thing is Shurmur and this coaching staff is sad and incompetent and should be out come seasons end.
every team “has a running back”. It’s the easiest position in the league to fill.
Myth. Not every team has a great running back. Not even close actually. And the teams that do run well are doing so because of coaching, qb play and OL.
Imagine having a great rb within a great system and qb... try it out.
If the giants ever become a good team again, Barkley will be everyone’s favorite player. He’s the engine.
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In comment 14713126 Gatorade Dunk said:
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In comment 14713122 figgy2989 said:
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Well the information that is known and factual is the product that is put out there every week. Make no mistake about it, that product has gotten worse since Gettleman got here.
This. And that's all that matters.
I feel bad for the suckers that slurp up the DG nonsense.
i agree the product is poor but at least we are young and have some prospects that look good vs being bad and having high priced vets eating the money up....
we are young with a rookie QB. not sure what people expected
I expected a former scout to be able to correctly assess the talent level of his roster and map out his strategy accordingly. I expected a professional who knows how roster construction and cap economics work. I expected a negotiator who places a value on each transaction and walks when he doesn't get his price. I expected a GM who doesn't get bent over like fresh fish in Attica every time he makes a trade.
Would that be a fair starting point?
youre right to expect competency. I just think DG gets a lot of heat thats misplaced. Im not in love with the job he has done, but his drafts have been solid and im eager to see how they turn out. We also dont know what he is up against, Mara could have made it clear one last run with eli so Dg did whaetver he could to throw some vets around him to try and win. now, we have a franchise QB, a solid RB, a ton of youth especially in the secondary. with another offseason, he can continue to shape the roster. i think the DG hate is probably premature, it takes time to undo the shit show that was the reese roster. thats a guy who didnt draft well at all for 6 straight years outside of the first round or two