“At the end of the season John Mara and I are gonna get together and discuss the future. As partners we have to be very honest with each other about where we see this team going into the 2020 season.”
–Steve Tisch
You’re right Mr. Tisch. It’s time to be brutally honest.
I’ve largely supported Dave and his decisions for two years now. Even though I may have disagreed with him, I often gave him the benefit of the doubt. My love of the Giants tends to bring the optimist out in me. But I can’t do it any longer.
He is responsible for this mess. His severe miscalculation of the state of the franchise back in 2018 has set us back another 3-5 years. Neither this team, nor this rebuild have had any identity whatsoever. He has made mistake after mistake after mistake since becoming GM.
•Hiring Pat freaking Shurmur.
•Trading draft picks for the overpaid and highly overrated (at least internally) Alec Ogletree.
•Drafting RB Saquon Barkley with the 2nd overall pick in a highly coveted (right or wrong) QB class. To make matters worse, he openly admitted to not answering inbound calls from teams exploring a trade up.
•Burning a 3rd round pick to select the oft-injured Sam Beal in the supplementary draft.
•Signing Omameh, Stewart, Barwin, Bethea, etc. Even Golden Tate, despite his production, was real head-scratcher.
•Signing Odell Beckham, although somewhat mitigated by the subsequent trade.
•Believing Solder, Halapio, and Remmers are capable offensive linemen.
•Ignoring offensive line early in the 2019 draft.
•Trading up for DeAndre Baker with plenty of similarly-graded CBs falling to 37, let alone highly graded o-linemen (Cody Ford, Greg Little, Dalton Risner).
•The jury is still out on the Daniel Jones selection, but early results are encouraging.
•Trading an early 3rd and 5th (potentially 4th) round pick for pending UFA Leonard Williams, who is seeking top-tier money, in a lost season
I’m sure I’m missing some of his mistakes, but quite frankly I’m done talking about it.
I bet that Dave is a really nice guy (this is not personal) and I do think he is a pretty solid talent evaluator, but he has a blatant disregard for draft capital is incredibly ill-fit to be a general manager.
It’s time to move on, Mr. Mara.
Please swallow your pride, rip the band-aid off, and conduct an extensive search for the next General Manager of the New York Football Giants.
I would love your thoughts.
Link - ( New Window )
Thought Dillard was in play at 17. And I mentioned the other 3 that would've been in play at 37.
I'm not being critical because hiring Gettleman was the Giants' way. I'm looking at his body of work and it leaves me thoroughly unimpressed, as it would most.
Nice post, hadn't seen that.
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Who is the offensive lineman you would have targeted in 2019? Jonah Williams, Andre Dillard, Bradbury, Tytus Howard, Jawaan Taylor?
Thought Dillard was in play at 17. And I mentioned the other 3 that would've been in play at 37.
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In comment 14712855 aGiantGuy said:
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Who is the offensive lineman you would have targeted in 2019? Jonah Williams, Andre Dillard, Bradbury, Tytus Howard, Jawaan Taylor?
Thought Dillard was in play at 17. And I mentioned the other 3 that would've been in play at 37.
Greg Little got beat like a drum by Vic fkin Beasley. Ford is a right guard, Dalton Risner is a left guard, Dillard didn’t come in last night when lane Johnson went down...he’s not a starter... Dexter Lawrence is a starter, DeAndre Baker is a starter.
D-Rex has been solid, but let's be honest "starting" for the 2-11 Giants doesn't mean much.
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In comment 14712865 BigBlueWC said:
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In comment 14712855 aGiantGuy said:
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Who is the offensive lineman you would have targeted in 2019? Jonah Williams, Andre Dillard, Bradbury, Tytus Howard, Jawaan Taylor?
Thought Dillard was in play at 17. And I mentioned the other 3 that would've been in play at 37.
Greg Little got beat like a drum by Vic fkin Beasley. Ford is a right guard, Dalton Risner is a left guard, Dillard didn’t come in last night when lane Johnson went down...he’s not a starter... Dexter Lawrence is a starter, DeAndre Baker is a starter.
D-Rex has been solid, but let's be honest "starting" for the 2-11 Giants doesn't mean much.
Ok sir, and letting the 38 yo Jason Peters beat you and halupi vitai, w.e his name is play over you means what exactly
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In comment 14712879 aGiantGuy said:
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In comment 14712865 BigBlueWC said:
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In comment 14712855 aGiantGuy said:
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Who is the offensive lineman you would have targeted in 2019? Jonah Williams, Andre Dillard, Bradbury, Tytus Howard, Jawaan Taylor?
Thought Dillard was in play at 17. And I mentioned the other 3 that would've been in play at 37.
Greg Little got beat like a drum by Vic fkin Beasley. Ford is a right guard, Dalton Risner is a left guard, Dillard didn’t come in last night when lane Johnson went down...he’s not a starter... Dexter Lawrence is a starter, DeAndre Baker is a starter.
D-Rex has been solid, but let's be honest "starting" for the 2-11 Giants doesn't mean much.
Ok sir, and letting the 38 yo Jason Peters beat you and halupi vitai, w.e his name is play over you means what exactly
Little is a starting LT. And I think Ford is starting for the Bills at RT. Dillard would start at T for the Giants. Let's not forget, rookie Tackles take some time to develop.
Where does your anger come from? Gotta be a burner account.
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In comment 14712892 BigBlueWC said:
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In comment 14712879 aGiantGuy said:
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In comment 14712865 BigBlueWC said:
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In comment 14712855 aGiantGuy said:
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Who is the offensive lineman you would have targeted in 2019? Jonah Williams, Andre Dillard, Bradbury, Tytus Howard, Jawaan Taylor?
Thought Dillard was in play at 17. And I mentioned the other 3 that would've been in play at 37.
Greg Little got beat like a drum by Vic fkin Beasley. Ford is a right guard, Dalton Risner is a left guard, Dillard didn’t come in last night when lane Johnson went down...he’s not a starter... Dexter Lawrence is a starter, DeAndre Baker is a starter.
D-Rex has been solid, but let's be honest "starting" for the 2-11 Giants doesn't mean much.
Ok sir, and letting the 38 yo Jason Peters beat you and halupi vitai, w.e his name is play over you means what exactly
Little is a starting LT. And I think Ford is starting for the Bills at RT. Dillard would start at T for the Giants. Let's not forget, rookie Tackles take some time to develop.
Where does your anger come from? Gotta be a burner account.
Little is a starting LT...so is Nate Solder. He almost got Kyle Allen killed Sunday by Vic Beasley who has been a total non factor for the past 3 years. Cody Ford is not playing well and is a natural guard.
The anger comes from the fact that if these players were on our team, absolutely nothing would be different. You would still have another point to list and the Giants would still suck with Little>solder, Ford>Remmers. Plus Antonio Hamilton or Ballentine as your starting boundary corner
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In comment 14712895 aGiantGuy said:
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In comment 14712892 BigBlueWC said:
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In comment 14712879 aGiantGuy said:
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In comment 14712865 BigBlueWC said:
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In comment 14712855 aGiantGuy said:
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Who is the offensive lineman you would have targeted in 2019? Jonah Williams, Andre Dillard, Bradbury, Tytus Howard, Jawaan Taylor?
Thought Dillard was in play at 17. And I mentioned the other 3 that would've been in play at 37.
Greg Little got beat like a drum by Vic fkin Beasley. Ford is a right guard, Dalton Risner is a left guard, Dillard didn’t come in last night when lane Johnson went down...he’s not a starter... Dexter Lawrence is a starter, DeAndre Baker is a starter.
D-Rex has been solid, but let's be honest "starting" for the 2-11 Giants doesn't mean much.
Ok sir, and letting the 38 yo Jason Peters beat you and halupi vitai, w.e his name is play over you means what exactly
Little is a starting LT. And I think Ford is starting for the Bills at RT. Dillard would start at T for the Giants. Let's not forget, rookie Tackles take some time to develop.
Where does your anger come from? Gotta be a burner account.
Little is a starting LT...so is Nate Solder. He almost got Kyle Allen killed Sunday by Vic Beasley who has been a total non factor for the past 3 years. Cody Ford is not playing well and is a natural guard.
The anger comes from the fact that if these players were on our team, absolutely nothing would be different. You would still have another point to list and the Giants would still suck with Little>solder, Ford>Remmers. Plus Antonio Hamilton or Ballentine as your starting boundary corner
LOL. My bad. You seem to vehemently disagree with 1 point out of about 15. You can rip on a rookie tackle but not a rookie corner that we just had to trade up for?
You're right, Gettleman has killed it.
When it's inevitably Abrams that replaces Gettleman, those claims will be well-deserved.
I'm with you, I don't buy it. He's a cap guy, supposedly a good one.
If the Giants think Abrams is excellent at managing the cap, they probably also think they're having an excellent season.
Abrams is mediocre. On his best days, he avoids being a liability, which is more than most of the front office can say, I guess.
How do you reach a conclusion like this? In 2017 a season where we had major injuries we won 3 games under a horrible coach.. after getting 2nd pick in a loaded draft and then sucking again and getting 6th overall pick.. DG has now created a team that is at best looking at 3-13 record.. why didn't his good moves help us win games in what looks like the worst year for NFC East.. the coaching in 2017 was already bad.. people are too optimistic about DG's moves.. at this stage I'd only Believe in the moves if they can actually produce wins..
Agree, Shurmur is proving to be a bad hire. I am not liking Ogletree too much either, the dude can't tackle or cover. Solder is disappointing, but the options were not there at the time.
DG has done a decent job of drafting and I think another offseason will help.
You thought we'd go 5-11 this year. Hahahahaha.
Even the biggest critic of this regime underestimated just how bad things are.
LOL. My bad. You seem to vehemently disagree with 1 point out of about 15. You can rip on a rookie tackle but not a rookie corner that we just had to trade up for?
You're right, Gettleman has killed it.
Dude I am not gonna sit here and unravel all 15 of your points. I’m sure others will express their opinions about them. The point is, you have no clue who wanted what, and whether it was Mara or Dg, or both, who wanted Eli or didn’t want Eli. And that information alone would change the perspective on many of the points listed above. The most fail proof way to judge a GM is who he drafts.
And Just because you hate chocolate doesn’t mean you love vanilla. Meaning, just because I don’t agree with your posts doesn’t mean I’m head over heels for Gettleman’s vision but you haven’t named a replacement. And when you do, I hope you can stand by them for 5+ years in the face of their fck ups.
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MIC DROP
And Just because you hate chocolate doesn’t mean you love vanilla. Meaning, just because I don’t agree with your posts doesn’t mean I’m head over heels for Gettleman’s vision but you haven’t named a replacement. And when you do, I hope you can stand by them for 5+ years in the face of their fck ups. [/quote]
I think Ed Dodds is a really interesting candidate, assuming he's interested. Nick Caserio is worth a look as well.
And Just because you hate chocolate doesn’t mean you love vanilla. Meaning, just because I don’t agree with your posts doesn’t mean I’m head over heels for Gettleman’s vision but you haven’t named a replacement. And when you do, I hope you can stand by them for 5+ years in the face of their fck ups.
I think Ed Dodds is a really interesting candidate, assuming he's interested. Nick Caserio is worth a look as well. [/quote]
Respectfully, how is Dodds any different from Gettleman? A great vp of player personnel resume and it’s reported he doesn’t want the attention of being a general manager... and just one piece of criticism. The colts have a bunch of 2019 cap space that they never used to sign anyone, had they used that cap space, who’s to say they wouldn’t be leading the afc south right now. Now idk if that was his decision or not but that’s a clear oversight
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Dude I am not gonna sit here and unravel all 15 of your points. I’m sure others will express their opinions about them. The point is, you have no clue who wanted what, and whether it was Mara or Dg, or both, who wanted Eli or didn’t want Eli. And that information alone would change the perspective on many of the points listed above. The most fail proof way to judge a GM is who he drafts.
And Just because you hate chocolate doesn’t mean you love vanilla. Meaning, just because I don’t agree with your posts doesn’t mean I’m head over heels for Gettleman’s vision but you haven’t named a replacement. And when you do, I hope you can stand by them for 5+ years in the face of their fck ups.
I think Ed Dodds is a really interesting candidate, assuming he's interested. Nick Caserio is worth a look as well.
Respectfully, how is Dodds any different from Gettleman? A great vp of player personnel resume and it’s reported he doesn’t want the attention of being a general manager... and just one piece of criticism. The colts have a bunch of 2019 cap space that they never used to sign anyone, had they used that cap space, who’s to say they wouldn’t be leading the afc south right now. Now idk if that was his decision or not but that’s a clear oversight [/quote]
Alright man, you win - status quo with the dinosaur Gettleman who blatantly disregards draft capital and positional value. He'll keep making massive mistakes and we'll keep making excuses for him. And we'll justify it all by saying we don't know for certain that anyone else would do better.
-John Mara
How do you feel about criticizing the Barkley choice when he'll be onto his second contract before the Giants actually build a roster where he can be deployed as a weapon that might actually help win games?
Barkey is a fantastic player. And in a vacuum, he might even be good enough to buck the positional value argument. But the Giants were in such dire need of a complete rebuild that choosing a player at a position that reaches their peak almost immediately and has the shortest shelf life among primary positions was wasteful.
I'm annoyed with the Giants that they didn't handle that draft differently because I think there was a clear path to a more impactful outcome, but I'm also sad for Barkley that he's wasting prime years on such a bad team that is ill-equipped to use his skills.
Oh, and JonC has said often that Chubb was in the mix, too. But that's not the point - we shouldn't be limited to what the Giants WOULD have done instead of Barkley; we're talking about what they SHOULD have done. There's a very big difference. Amassing draft picks there was the smart play. And the actual sequence of events that draft tells us that it was a viable option, had our GM actually been willing to consider it.
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when it is reference only as a QB heavy draft. The QBs at the top of the draft are all disappointments. The reality is if it wasn't Barkley, it was going to be Darnold. Would this really be a better solution, especially with our current OL? Now, if you say we should have traded down, I can get behind that. But, they got the best player in that draft. The problem is not Barkley over a QB, it's Barkley without an OL. Even at that, Gettleman and Shurmer thought they addressed it this offseason. Sadly, the reality is the OL is now worse. This one area sets us back terribly, as we now have to spend significant resources for the 3rd year in a row on OL. This is no different than the Reese era. I think there is a serious problem with our personnel department evaluating OL, both college and pro.
How do you feel about criticizing the Barkley choice when he'll be onto his second contract before the Giants actually build a roster where he can be deployed as a weapon that might actually help win games?
Barkey is a fantastic player. And in a vacuum, he might even be good enough to buck the positional value argument. But the Giants were in such dire need of a complete rebuild that choosing a player at a position that reaches their peak almost immediately and has the shortest shelf life among primary positions was wasteful.
I'm annoyed with the Giants that they didn't handle that draft differently because I think there was a clear path to a more impactful outcome, but I'm also sad for Barkley that he's wasting prime years on such a bad team that is ill-equipped to use his skills.
Oh, and JonC has said often that Chubb was in the mix, too. But that's not the point - we shouldn't be limited to what the Giants WOULD have done instead of Barkley; we're talking about what they SHOULD have done. There's a very big difference. Amassing draft picks there was the smart play. And the actual sequence of events that draft tells us that it was a viable option, had our GM actually been willing to consider it.
Well said.
But you also don’t take a RB at 2. I don’t care how good he is. Should have traded down and taken either Nelson or Chubb.
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I think Gettleman is doing a fabulous job. Aside from hiring Shurmer (not convinced this was all Gettleman either), I think nearly all of Gettleman's moves have improved our team. I think our coaching is making us look like a team with no talent.
Agree, Shurmur is proving to be a bad hire. I am not liking Ogletree too much either, the dude can't tackle or cover. Solder is disappointing, but the options were not there at the time.
DG has done a decent job of drafting and I think another offseason will help.
Agree I think DG has been average in Free agency we were desperate for a LB and a LT There was little to choose
from . Ogletree has been our best LB to date is he perfect
hardly but he does make plays and around the ball . Not
one person here thought Soldier would fall off a cliff
either . The drats have been pretty solid in comparison
to Jerry Reese . I am optimistic with one more draft
and with the roster has rid itself with malcontents that
we will start seeing the boat turning around . He missed
big time on selecting Shurmur I like the idea of bringing
in Rivera . The rookies are taking there lumps Beal
Ballentine Baker Love ect . With another strong draft
and enough cap space to get the O-line where it needs
to be I feel we are going in the right direction
Backwards Barkley?? Go fuck off
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is if Gettleman is fired, the usual suspects will claim that the next guy was hired the "Giants Way", be disgusted with him day 1 and continue the cycle over again!
I'm not being critical because hiring Gettleman was the Giants' way. I'm looking at his body of work and it leaves me thoroughly unimpressed, as it would most.
The guy you are responding to trolls. He doesn't want to hear anything negative about the Giants.
You start a thread post anything negative Giants there's a good chance he'll troll in and twist your comments and lie about things try to change your comments to fit his narrative. However if you post YaY Rah Rah Team he'll leave you alone. To use his prior comment -- "You can count on it."
He's a Yaay Rah Rah Team poster.
What the fuck are you trying to say??
Hopefully this time, they wouldn't have valid reason to.
You can fairly disparage the pick but disparaging the player isn't very fair in this instance. Barkley certainly did not shy away from contact before his ankle injury, and he isn't exactly avoiding contact post injury either.
I was one of those guys who really wanted is to draft Barkley and was thrilled when we did, but I now concede it was a mistake. I bought into the ridiculous notion that the rest of our roster could improve to enough of a degree that he'd contribute immediately to more wins, that he, Beckham, and Engram would be a formidable big 3, and that we were in potentially very good hands with Gettleman and Shurmur.
It may be the dumbest thing I've ever thought.
Rumors are there are other Maras, or relatives, that are involved in the scouting department.
Shurmur is terrible & has to go, that's a given. Gettleman MAY be just as bad and deserves to be shown out the door too. But there's no way to know without knowing how the decision process is made. His drafts appear to be good to solid, at least (I never liked the Barkley pick, but still too early to tell).
But FA pick ups have been a disaster, and that's the department Chris Mara runs. Does Gettleman have the authority to over rule him? By titles, of course, but its still a "family business", or at least run like one. How much influence does Chris Mara have on John Mara? Does Gettleman even have the authority to replace him if he wanted to?
Tisch really does interject after the season. Otherwise, its the same shit all over again
Personally, I would rather burn the whole thing down and rebuild the organization from the ground up, with as little involvement as possible from anyone named Mara, or related to anyone named Mara. (Except maybe Kate and Rooney. I like their work; I just doubt their talents translate to a front-office role.) To me, though, the worst-case scenario is to conclude a year from now that Gettleman has to go. Either fire him or stick with him through 2022.
December 2019: Coaching staff goes; Rivera/Garrett are hired as head coach to work with Gettleman
December 2020: Team goes 6-10, Gettleman is the fall guy. Abrams is promoted to GM.
And on and on we go.
Personally, I would rather burn the whole thing down and rebuild the organization from the ground up, with as little involvement as possible from anyone named Mara, or related to anyone named Mara. (Except maybe Kate and Rooney. I like their work; I just doubt their talents translate to a front-office role.) To me, though, the worst-case scenario is to conclude a year from now that Gettleman has to go. Either fire him or stick with him through 2022.
In agreement here BBB. If DG picks the new coach, you almost have to give him as much time as the new coach gets. Lame duck GM is not the situation you want to ever be in.
I just don't have faith DG will pick the right guy and ultimately make the moves that get the Giants into a Superbowl. I'd start over.
What are you basing that on? I've seen no evidence that he's anything but an arrogant jerk.
My prediction... you'll fall in line no matter what they decide to do, call out anyone who questions that decision and continue the cycle over again!
This is idiotic. When Reese was fired a majority of people knew we were hiring DG because of his ties to the organization. Just like if he gets fired people will think Kevin Abrams will be the next GM. But keep being an idiot.
We'll have a bunch of convoluted shit to tie the next guy back to the team. Shurmur isn't the "Giants Way" and yet he's sucked on his own merits.
There are people here who still hold the way Gettleman was hired against him.
We'll have a bunch of convoluted shit to tie the next guy back to the team. Shurmur isn't the "Giants Way" and yet he's sucked on his own merits.
There are people here who still hold the way Gettleman was hired against him.
Guilty. It was a total sham and you know it.
It was just a classic Giants move running to their safe space. And you know that, too.
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Giants could have gotten more but chose Backwards Barkley instead - a RB that does not like contact.
Backwards Barkley?? Go fuck off
+1