I’m not advocating he be traded, and know it is unlikely for several reasons. I just believe that the state of the team is so bad that every avenue should be looked at. So what is his value on the trade market?
Put yourself in another GM's shoes...what would you trade for him? Or if you were an owner and your GM traded a first rounder for him, how would you feel about it?
Personally if I were an owner and my GM traded a first rounder for Barkley, he might not be my GM much longer.
their first and Singletary? Would you do it if Giants could draft a quality Oline player?
I don't know, have the Bills done anything really stupid in a while? Because this would be a really stupid trade for them. Singletary is a useful back whose remaining cap hit over the next 3 years (total) is less than half of what Barkley will cost against the cap next year alone.
will realize a huge problem is the offensive line and play calling. Other GMs can see his abilities because WHEN the play is blocked well, he has success.
How often is he hit in the backfield the moment he gets the ball?
he could fetch any pick outside of the top 10 or so.
Odell got a 1st and a good player and I think he would net more. He's a RB, but he's also one of the best pass catching RBs in the league (despite a bad drop last week).
I'm not an expert but its easy to see that there are very few holes for him to burst thru. The OL gets little or no movement especially in short yardage situations. On a team with a better OL and better coaching he'd be playing like a superstar.
(like any other RB), doesn't that diminish his value?
Wasn't part of the argument for drafting Barkley that he was so good, that he didn't really need a very good OL?
Aren't the goalposts are being moved here?
If he is like other RBs and relies on the OL, and looks like crap without a good one, then why is his value so much more than any other decent RB?
If his running and catching ability were so extraordinary, why hasn't he made a greater impact for the Giants? If you say its the OL, then go back to the beginning of this post and repeat...
(like any other RB), doesn't that diminish his value?
Wasn't part of the argument for drafting Barkley that he was so good, that he didn't really need a very good OL?
Aren't the goalposts are being moved here?
If he is like other RBs and relies on the OL, and looks like crap without a good one, then why is his value so much more than any other decent RB?
If his running and catching ability were so extraordinary, why hasn't he made a greater impact for the Giants? If you say its the OL, then go back to the beginning of this post and repeat...
I'm not an expert but its easy to see that there are very few holes for him to burst thru. The OL gets little or no movement especially in short yardage situations. On a team with a better OL and better coaching he'd be playing like a superstar.
(like any other RB), doesn't that diminish his value?
Wasn't part of the argument for drafting Barkley that he was so good, that he didn't really need a very good OL?
Aren't the goalposts are being moved here?
As soon as he gets the ball, three defenders are in his face. Walter Payton wouldn't be able to do anything in the same situation. And his head coach doesn't know how to get him the ball in open space.
I can't believe people who watched him last year don't believe in his skills. There's room for improvement in his game, sure, but with good coaching, a competent offensive line, and a healthy body, Barkley can do things far beyond what you'd get out of the vast majority of 3rd or 4th-round picks.
The Browns got a first rounder from the Colts for Trent Richardson. And that was a disaster for the Colts.
The Bills traded Marshawn Lynch for a 4th and a 5th. And that was a steal for Seattle.
So using those as comps because, like SB, both were first round RBs, and the results are mixed (granted small sample), I'd say we fair value would be a second rounder on top and fourth (?) to bookend it.
But I just don't see a first rounder unless some team that thinks they are close to a SB and aggressively go all in. And that's hard to predict.
So if we got two picks like a second or third/fourth I think you take it - I'd do it right now - and not look back.
1) Can we please stop with the mediocre label? Last year he was potentially the best player in the league. This year, the team got even worse than last year.
2) I absolutely love Barkley and I was in favor of drafting him before they took him. But, like bw says, if they can get a 2 and a 3 or 4, I think you make the deal.
To get a first rounder now that Shurmur got a hold of him. Who has improved over the coarse of time, nobody has, the other organizations figure out what he does and that is that, he knows no other way to do anything. For the Giants to have hired this fool says it all. He is an offensive coordinator that had tremendous talent in Minnesota and had one fucking moment, and this ship of fucking fools hired him, plus they hired the biggest blowhard on the planet, Mr. Sever Super Bowl's, Dave Gettleman, despite the FAct HE HAS WON NONE as a GM, he is tell you why he is smarter then you real quickly, and this organization bought into this blowhard, how fucking pathetic are they.
1) Can we please stop with the mediocre label? Last year he was potentially the best player in the league.
That’s outrageously false.
Stats mean nothing if it doesn’t impact the score or the overall improvement of the team.
The Hand of God hasn’t improved this team at all.
(like any other RB), doesn't that diminish his value?
Wasn't part of the argument for drafting Barkley that he was so good, that he didn't really need a very good OL?
Aren't the goalposts are being moved here?
As soon as he gets the ball, three defenders are in his face. Walter Payton wouldn't be able to do anything in the same situation. And his head coach doesn't know how to get him the ball in open space.
I can't believe people who watched him last year don't believe in his skills. There's room for improvement in his game, sure, but with good coaching, a competent offensive line, and a healthy body, Barkley can do things far beyond what you'd get out of the vast majority of 3rd or 4th-round picks.
Is what Barkley did last year that great?
The single most important attribute a running game can provide is consistent yards (even if its not in big chunks). Yards in big chunks, together with a plethora of stuffed runs is a recipe for a disastrous offense. This is measured by run efficiency.
Last year he was 41st out of 47 RB in rushing efficiency. This year he is 33rd (dead last out of qualifying candidates) in terms of rushing efficiency.
That kind of rushing efficiency is really hurting the team. And while some of that is the OL's fault, it is also Barkley's running style. Here is an article about Barkley from before the draft:
1. Barkley is a feast-or-famine running back and always has been.
The first thing voters will always look at, when it comes to RBs: total rushing yards, whether that’s the right number to look up or not. Barkley ended up with 1,134, No. 34 in the country and behind four quarterbacks, including finalist Lamar Jackson.
Our season preview broke down Penn State’s offense like this:
If I hadn’t watched a single second of Penn State and only had the stats in front of me, I would reach two broad conclusions:
1. With that many big gains and negative plays, the Nittany Lions either had a running back who danced around far too much or a line that couldn’t block a good Division II front.
2. Relying that much on big plays is not sustainable.
Barkley risks short losses for huge gains, but the eyeballs suggest that the proper answer to Conclusion No. 1 is that the line was still a mess. And its improvement is the key to addressing Conclusion No. 2.
And Barkley has lived up to this rep this season. His penchant for negative rushes has popped up. He’s fifth nationally in rushes over 30 yards with 10, and Penn State’s rushing game (which is almost entirely Barkley and QB Trace McSorley) ranks No. 12 in the country in explosiveness but No. 105 in avoiding stuffed runs.
Despite the explosiveness, he’s averaging only 5.7 yards-per-carry (54th nationally among all players with 100 or more carries), and at 16.6 rushes per game, Penn State isn’t relying on his legs alone to power its offense.
That last line is pretty damning. Penn St coaches knew they could not rely on Barkley. At the end of the day, I think Shurmur feels the same way which is why he doesn't go to him as much as people would like to see. Plus also note, he averaged less than 17 rushes per game at PSU... Not much different than here.
Most analytics would say that Barkley's style is an offense/coach killer unless he has a very good OL in front of him.
So again, if he needs a very good OL in front of him, how much more value does he have over other RBs?
2) I absolutely love Barkley and I was in favor of drafting him before they took him. But, like bw says, if they can get a 2 and a 3 or 4, I think you make the deal.
I believe that's a better haul than what the Colts got for Marshall Faulk.
Then why is he still having the same problems he had in college. If he were such a supremely sublime RB, why has the greatest knock on him been the same for the past 5 years, across both college and the NFL. Might it be the player and not how he is used?
2) I absolutely love Barkley and I was in favor of drafting him before they took him. But, like bw says, if they can get a 2 and a 3 or 4, I think you make the deal.
I believe that's a better haul than what the Colts got for Marshall Faulk.
Slightly, but draft picks were valued differently before the draft slot contract system, and Faulk was a few years older at the time of that trade than Barkley is now (though you could argue that he was more established as a finished product so the risk was mitigated).
If you aren't getting a 1st then you don't trade SB Â
Yes what he did last year- was great. The reason many of us thought the team would stink last year and stink this year was not because the coach stinks, but the OL stinks too.
And DG is also to blame. When you draft a RB as high as GMEN did - and your OL stinks-- you need a sense of urgency to get a decent OL assembled. DG failed miserably in this too.
Barkley did make the team better when healthy in 2018. In the 2nd half of last year when G-men went 4-4 he averaged about 98.5 yards per game with about a 5.25 average yards per game. That's a definition of making his team better in which the team was absolutely crummy.
Let's face it DG has done a pathetic job providing quality for the running game. It appears he just assumed that he took a star RB that it means he will automatically be a beast. That’s not how it works. Just look at the OL- Solder and Hernandez on the left side are not known as run blockers. Zeitler is more of a pass blocker. Halapio sucks. And whatever we think of Remmers he is not good however. SB has been hurt and you have given him shit overall to work with.
They can win with him eventually but not with the shit as a coach unless he has a miraculous change, the overall talent and the old timer GM- all need a major makeover too. DG has to get at least two good players on the OL that can also be good in the running game.
As far as trading SB- if they trade him for anything less than a 1st round pick, the GM that trades him before the start of next season doesn't belong in that job.
Is probably about right. And if you are the Giants you do it. The Giants are at least two seasons away and by the time they are good they will have to pay him.
Things have truly hit rock bottom when our "generational player" is being discussed in trade hypotheticals
Personally if I were an owner and my GM traded a first rounder for Barkley, he might not be my GM much longer.
barkley is 100% worth a first rounder.
i would NEVER trade him at this point because hwas hurt and his numbers dont reflect the player he is.
it will be exciting once we have an OC utilizing his talent
In a second
I don't know, have the Bills done anything really stupid in a while? Because this would be a really stupid trade for them. Singletary is a useful back whose remaining cap hit over the next 3 years (total) is less than half of what Barkley will cost against the cap next year alone.
How often is he hit in the backfield the moment he gets the ball?
Odell got a 1st and a good player and I think he would net more. He's a RB, but he's also one of the best pass catching RBs in the league (despite a bad drop last week).
Wasn't part of the argument for drafting Barkley that he was so good, that he didn't really need a very good OL?
Aren't the goalposts are being moved here?
If he is like other RBs and relies on the OL, and looks like crap without a good one, then why is his value so much more than any other decent RB?
If his running and catching ability were so extraordinary, why hasn't he made a greater impact for the Giants? If you say its the OL, then go back to the beginning of this post and repeat...
Wasn't part of the argument for drafting Barkley that he was so good, that he didn't really need a very good OL?
Aren't the goalposts are being moved here?
If he is like other RBs and relies on the OL, and looks like crap without a good one, then why is his value so much more than any other decent RB?
If his running and catching ability were so extraordinary, why hasn't he made a greater impact for the Giants? If you say its the OL, then go back to the beginning of this post and repeat...
Betcha Bieniemy could light a fire under his ass!
Wasn't part of the argument for drafting Barkley that he was so good, that he didn't really need a very good OL?
Aren't the goalposts are being moved here?
As soon as he gets the ball, three defenders are in his face. Walter Payton wouldn't be able to do anything in the same situation. And his head coach doesn't know how to get him the ball in open space.
I can't believe people who watched him last year don't believe in his skills. There's room for improvement in his game, sure, but with good coaching, a competent offensive line, and a healthy body, Barkley can do things far beyond what you'd get out of the vast majority of 3rd or 4th-round picks.
The Bills traded Marshawn Lynch for a 4th and a 5th. And that was a steal for Seattle.
So using those as comps because, like SB, both were first round RBs, and the results are mixed (granted small sample), I'd say we fair value would be a second rounder on top and fourth (?) to bookend it.
But I just don't see a first rounder unless some team that thinks they are close to a SB and aggressively go all in. And that's hard to predict.
So if we got two picks like a second or third/fourth I think you take it - I'd do it right now - and not look back.
2) I absolutely love Barkley and I was in favor of drafting him before they took him. But, like bw says, if they can get a 2 and a 3 or 4, I think you make the deal.
That’s outrageously false.
Stats mean nothing if it doesn’t impact the score or the overall improvement of the team.
The Hand of God hasn’t improved this team at all.
I'd say he could draw a 2020 2nd, and a conditional 2021 second.
Quote:
(like any other RB), doesn't that diminish his value?
Wasn't part of the argument for drafting Barkley that he was so good, that he didn't really need a very good OL?
Aren't the goalposts are being moved here?
As soon as he gets the ball, three defenders are in his face. Walter Payton wouldn't be able to do anything in the same situation. And his head coach doesn't know how to get him the ball in open space.
I can't believe people who watched him last year don't believe in his skills. There's room for improvement in his game, sure, but with good coaching, a competent offensive line, and a healthy body, Barkley can do things far beyond what you'd get out of the vast majority of 3rd or 4th-round picks.
Is what Barkley did last year that great?
The single most important attribute a running game can provide is consistent yards (even if its not in big chunks). Yards in big chunks, together with a plethora of stuffed runs is a recipe for a disastrous offense. This is measured by run efficiency.
Last year he was 41st out of 47 RB in rushing efficiency. This year he is 33rd (dead last out of qualifying candidates) in terms of rushing efficiency.
Here is a link to one of my posts from a few days ago with links to the source data
https://corner.bigblueinteractive.com/index.php?mode=2&thread=591223&show_all=1#14700461
That kind of rushing efficiency is really hurting the team. And while some of that is the OL's fault, it is also Barkley's running style. Here is an article about Barkley from before the draft:
https://www.sbnation.com/college-football/2017/12/8/16671860/saquon-barkley-heisman-trophy-finalist-snub-penn-state
The first thing voters will always look at, when it comes to RBs: total rushing yards, whether that’s the right number to look up or not. Barkley ended up with 1,134, No. 34 in the country and behind four quarterbacks, including finalist Lamar Jackson.
Our season preview broke down Penn State’s offense like this:
If I hadn’t watched a single second of Penn State and only had the stats in front of me, I would reach two broad conclusions:
1. With that many big gains and negative plays, the Nittany Lions either had a running back who danced around far too much or a line that couldn’t block a good Division II front.
2. Relying that much on big plays is not sustainable.
Barkley risks short losses for huge gains, but the eyeballs suggest that the proper answer to Conclusion No. 1 is that the line was still a mess. And its improvement is the key to addressing Conclusion No. 2.
And Barkley has lived up to this rep this season. His penchant for negative rushes has popped up. He’s fifth nationally in rushes over 30 yards with 10, and Penn State’s rushing game (which is almost entirely Barkley and QB Trace McSorley) ranks No. 12 in the country in explosiveness but No. 105 in avoiding stuffed runs.
Despite the explosiveness, he’s averaging only 5.7 yards-per-carry (54th nationally among all players with 100 or more carries), and at 16.6 rushes per game, Penn State isn’t relying on his legs alone to power its offense.
That last line is pretty damning. Penn St coaches knew they could not rely on Barkley. At the end of the day, I think Shurmur feels the same way which is why he doesn't go to him as much as people would like to see. Plus also note, he averaged less than 17 rushes per game at PSU... Not much different than here.
Most analytics would say that Barkley's style is an offense/coach killer unless he has a very good OL in front of him.
So again, if he needs a very good OL in front of him, how much more value does he have over other RBs?
2) I absolutely love Barkley and I was in favor of drafting him before they took him. But, like bw says, if they can get a 2 and a 3 or 4, I think you make the deal.
I believe that's a better haul than what the Colts got for Marshall Faulk.
Then why is he still having the same problems he had in college. If he were such a supremely sublime RB, why has the greatest knock on him been the same for the past 5 years, across both college and the NFL. Might it be the player and not how he is used?
Quote:
2) I absolutely love Barkley and I was in favor of drafting him before they took him. But, like bw says, if they can get a 2 and a 3 or 4, I think you make the deal.
I believe that's a better haul than what the Colts got for Marshall Faulk.
Slightly, but draft picks were valued differently before the draft slot contract system, and Faulk was a few years older at the time of that trade than Barkley is now (though you could argue that he was more established as a finished product so the risk was mitigated).
And DG is also to blame. When you draft a RB as high as GMEN did - and your OL stinks-- you need a sense of urgency to get a decent OL assembled. DG failed miserably in this too.
Barkley did make the team better when healthy in 2018. In the 2nd half of last year when G-men went 4-4 he averaged about 98.5 yards per game with about a 5.25 average yards per game. That's a definition of making his team better in which the team was absolutely crummy.
Let's face it DG has done a pathetic job providing quality for the running game. It appears he just assumed that he took a star RB that it means he will automatically be a beast. That’s not how it works. Just look at the OL- Solder and Hernandez on the left side are not known as run blockers. Zeitler is more of a pass blocker. Halapio sucks. And whatever we think of Remmers he is not good however. SB has been hurt and you have given him shit overall to work with.
They can win with him eventually but not with the shit as a coach unless he has a miraculous change, the overall talent and the old timer GM- all need a major makeover too. DG has to get at least two good players on the OL that can also be good in the running game.
As far as trading SB- if they trade him for anything less than a 1st round pick, the GM that trades him before the start of next season doesn't belong in that job.