Main thrust:
In 10 starts Jones has 11 interceptions and 15 fumbles, with his only good games coming against bad teams (Bucs, Lions, Jets). He's thrown just one TD pass in all but one of his other starts.
Other tidbits:
"Jones is tied with Mason Rudolph for the 32nd worst ANY/A in the NFL, and Jones has been the worst, or second worst, quarterback in the NFL by other analytic measures. Ben Baldwin, a statistician for The Athletic, has been tracking completion percentage over expectation (CPOE) and expected points added (EPA) over the course of the season, and Jones ranks 34th of 35 qualifying quarterbacks."
I'm not a big analytics guy by any stretch and am unfamiliar with these indicators but thought it was interesting nevertheless.
I don't think Jones has been anything other than average to below average so I am not opposed to the idea of it. If Gettleman is staying on as GM obviously drafting another QB won't be on the table. But maybe it should be.
Giants should draft a quarterback? - (
New Window )
Bbi is a joke
Eli is 0-3, so obviously he is not the answer, either. And I can guarantee you that if we pick another QB and start that guy as a rookie, that he will likely struggle. So yea, let's cut bait on Jones, pick Burrow, and when he struggles as a rookie, cut bait on him too. Evidently, rookie QBs are supposed to now come in and light up the league. Oh, and Eli is 0-3 with basically all of our weapons. Jones is 2-8 and has not played a single game with all of our weapons healthy. But that doesn't matter either.
I am sick of this place. You don't have to anoint Jones, but please stop calling him a monumental bust. It is absolute stupid talk.
Eli is 0-3, so obviously he is not the answer, either. And I can guarantee you that if we pick another QB and start that guy as a rookie, that he will likely struggle. So yea, let's cut bait on Jones, pick Burrow, and when he struggles as a rookie, cut bait on him too. Evidently, rookie QBs are supposed to now come in and light up the league. Oh, and Eli is 0-3 with basically all of our weapons. Jones is 2-8 and has not played a single game with all of our weapons healthy. But that doesn't matter either.
I am sick of this place. You don't have to anoint Jones, but please stop calling him a monumental bust. It is absolute stupid talk.
when he fumbles those teams' defenses a free touchdown, and the loss is by seven points or less, it's fair to put the loss on him. the difference between winning and losing games usually comes down to a handful of plays.
so while it was great that he threw 4 TDs v the lions, it was bad that his fumble led to a defensive touchdown in a game the giants ended up losing by five points. we all know this giants defense isn't good enough to overcome those kinds of things.
also, i don't think anyone - at least not me - called jones a monumental bust. of course it's possible he'll stop fumbling games away. i'm certainly not rooting for him to fail, but i'm not bullish on him right now.
i wasn't bullish on eli either until that 2005 san diego game where he converted like five third and longs in a row.
Relying on stats alone to say that a player is underachieving w/o taking into account the other factors is dangerous and narrow-minded.
I do think Jones is a great fit for NY personality-wise and I think the coaching has been awful.
If he does not improve his pocket presence he won't ever amount to a plus at the position. Most we can hope for is a double-edged sword.
Good news is he has been a double-edged sword most of the year with plusses offsetting minuses. There's real hope he can be very good.
I'd have to have Burrow graded at an Elway, Peyton, Luck level to consider not giving Jones other year. If we stink next year then maybe we're in the Lawrence stakes.
You can disagree with the philosophy of drafting another quarterback, but don't make Jones out to be something other than what he's been to this point: a turnover machine with no pocket presence.
We're all hoping he improves, but that's what he's been. Bullshitting ourselves into thinking otherwise isn't good for anyone.
How does a team this shitty have a single sacred cow on it?
I admire your ability to be negative without really saying anything.
I for one think drafting a QB would be terrible value. We'd spend the #2 pick in order to obtain the marginal value of an upgrade at a position we have already spent a high pick on someone who appears to be an N FL starter. I'd rather use the #2 pick to get the full value of a great player we do not have on the team, such as a pass rusher or OT. I don't have to think Jones is a sacred cow to think that for the Giants right now, QB is just not good value at the #2 pick.
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has shown way more glimpses of greatness than Darnold or Rosen combined.
Rosen for sure, but he's been dealt some very poor hands.
Darnold is a paradox to me. I thought he was toast when he admitted he saw ghosts. But he's bounced back pretty well. And there have been plenty of flashes.
What I have seen of the flashes are really brief flashes. Looks like a Dalton type QB to me.
But it's clear as day that if Burrows is considered to be a significant upgrade, and he is available, the Giants should draft him.
In the NFL its about the QB, and in the draft its BPA.
Thankfully the GM of the Giants wasn’t of the same mindset during Phil Simms ‘ and Eli s early years
There s much excellent content on this site shared by many posters. But more and more we are getting opinions such as this that confirm that we as fans should not be taken too seriously.
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I will say this to you and Terps, how many points would we have had with Eli behind this line? Jones has escaped the rush, picked up first downs and avoided sacks that led to points. Eli, agaibst a shit secondary put up 17 first half points then could not generate a drive, let alone points in the sevond half. Yes, turnovers have to lessen but Jones has shown he is the real deal. He needs experience and some Oline help...
Why are you comparing Eli to Jones? What's the point? Eli has been done for three years. The move to Jones was the right one. The only issue there is Jones should have been the starter from game one.
I agree Jones is considerably more mobile and may have been a better answer last night. And?
Seriously- yes the point is, we have won or been in games because of Jones. I hear all these negatives about him and yet our long time QB would do pretty poorly with this team and I dare say most other QB's in the NFL would struggle with no running game and next to nothing at TE and Oline. You guys act like he should be 20 TDs to 6 Ints and the Giants should be 5-8 or 6-7.. This team is complete garbage. The coaching staff alone is a handicap going into each game.
Give Jones some credit here, the guy could easily be hitting the deck and covering up for fear of fumbles but instead stands tall in there and tries to get this team to play better than it is. I feel like their is this undo expectation on him when in reality he hasn't much to work with.
I think he’s shown enough that he’s not a total flop. But the problem there is it’s easy to move on from a total flop whereas it’s far more difficult to cut ties with a guy who occasionally shows some potential but you’re never really going to win with at the helm. Think guys like Dalton, Cousins, future Dak Prescott, etc. Seemingly enough to be respectable, but not really putting a team over the top.
Unfortunately, you cannot just discount the turnovers, it’s separates the truly top qbs from the decent ones from the poor ones. One of the best cases I can make for this is the 2010 Giants. But no for the turnovers Eli would have probably been a top 5 nfl qb that year, he made a lot of great throws put up good numbers , the team scored with consistency. However he also had 25 ints, some of them in killer spots. That tainted his year greatly.
You never really see the truly top qbs turn the ball over with any form of consistency. It’s something we hope is correctable but don’t really know. So far now Jones is a guy who has shown some potential but has a lot to improve upon to be a top qb in the league and make the Giants a legit offensive force.
Don't you just love when a hack reporter finds an new "advanced metric" and uses it as gospel?
Screw him and the horse he rode in on.
How's his lover boy Haskins looking?
Arizona is still a shitty team. And they made a huge mistake an wasted draft capital in the Murray draft/Rosen dump.
I would bet a new hire would gut the scouting staff over time.
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We are not losing games solely because of Jones. Our defense has been Swiss cheese and our offense has been in catch up mode and injured.
McShay can suck it. Draft Chase Young, draft OL in round 2 ( OT or C ).
I agree the team is failing everywhere. But since Jones touches the ball the most, and the major requirement of his position is to produce points, it's a reasonable place to focus.
Again, Jones has shown very interesting ability. But a deeper look into his play, particularly his last six games in aggregate, is pause for concern.
BW,
I agree that Jones needs to protect the football better, but just looking at his accuracy and his demeanor he looks like a pro QB. For reference, look back at when Eli started as a rookie. It was not pretty. I think Jones has shown much more ability and competitiveness than Eli as a rookie. Let's also add that Manning was replacing Collins and an at the time declining Warner. Jones is replacing Manning a 2 time SuperBowl Champ and MVP. The pressure to play well while taking over a team in the biggest market in the league is no small feat. Jones is showing me that he is a franchise QB and will be part of the solution going forward.
If we can bring in elite talent to our defense like Young, and a couple of very good free agents, continue to build the OL and of course bring in a coach who knows how to motivate and teach with sound schemes, this team will change course.
Jones is a keeper.
I don't think moving him for a first rounder (or some other appealing package of picks) is a crazy notion. I'd imagine the timeline like this:
Dec/Jan: Giants finish 2-14, get 1st overall pick, Gettleman/Shurmur fired & replacement hired
March: New league year starts, Giants contact QB needy teams about interest in Jones. Potentially QB-needy teams off the top of my head that will have picks in middle/second half of the first round: NE, PIT, TEN, DAL, CHI, TB. Giants trade Jones for latter half first rounder.
April: Giants draft Burrow and still have another first round pick
Gettleman has to go for this to play out, obviously. There's no way he picks another QB.
Before getting hurt, he had a chance of breaking the rookie touchdown record. He never once looked skittish while getting mauled on almost every drop back. He continuously showed guts and moxie. He took the blame and handled himself impeccably in every postgame interview with the grace of a savvy vet.
Yes, the turnovers are a major issue. Major. But I’ll take my chances with someone I have already seen that led me to my take in the first 2 paragraphs above. I’ll take my chances that he can fix his glaring flaw over an unknown top rookie in the draft. Daniel Jones is going to be a really good QB. He seems like someone who will work very hard at fixing his weaknesses. We are lucky to have him.
My thoughts exactly!!!
BW,
I agree that Jones needs to protect the football better, but just looking at his accuracy and his demeanor he looks like a pro QB. For reference, look back at when Eli started as a rookie. It was not pretty. I think Jones has shown much more ability and competitiveness than Eli as a rookie. Let's also add that Manning was replacing Collins and an at the time declining Warner. Jones is replacing Manning a 2 time SuperBowl Champ and MVP. The pressure to play well while taking over a team in the biggest market in the league is no small feat. Jones is showing me that he is a franchise QB and will be part of the solution going forward.
If we can bring in elite talent to our defense like Young, and a couple of very good free agents, continue to build the OL and of course bring in a coach who knows how to motivate and teach with sound schemes, this team will change course.
Jones is a keeper.
Look, I don't have a problem going Young. If we have the #1 or #2 pick it's almost a 100% certainty that DG submits the pick within 5 seconds of Goodell saying, "The New York Giants are on the clock..."
But if you have the #1 overall pick, it's wise to consider the best way to optimize that pick.
Do you simply take the best player for a need?
Do you take a player at a vital position (i.e. QB) that you think you have filled but may have now have a better option?
Or do you think about parlaying that pick into more picks. And therefore add more players based on looking at (1) that current draft supply, (2) the next draft supply, and (3) the next draft supply after that.
My point is all options should be on the table because we have so many needs. No player on this team should be safe.
Hell, I'd think about packaging Jones/Barkley or Jones/Engram to really entice a big trade return. Because I just don't think we're close to being good.
If we decide to continue to ride with Jones, that's fine. He certainly hasn't been a catastrophe, which is a positive. But keep this in mind, too. It's easier than ever, even compared to when Eli broke into the league, to play QB. So I would be careful being over the moon with what we have seen with Jones in the good column. A lot of young QBs are entering the league, and hitting the ground running...
Disagree completely. McShay isn't some internet journalist (or Skip Bayless). His claim to fame is that of a draft guru. He's not going to say something for the sake of clicks.
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has shown way more glimpses of greatness than Darnold or Rosen combined.
Rosen for sure, but he's been dealt some very poor hands.
Darnold is a paradox to me. I thought he was toast when he admitted he saw ghosts. But he's bounced back pretty well. And there have been plenty of flashes.
Agree. I like Darnold. I like him more than Jones and I believe he'll have a better career in the long term.
Arizona is still a shitty team. And they made a huge mistake an wasted draft capital in the Murray draft/Rosen dump.
They made a mistake when they drafted Rosen. Dumping him and starting over was the right thing to do.
If Jones is being questioned as the pick because the team hasn't shown improvement, the same logic should apply to arizona.
McShay's narrative is trying to portray Jones as a QB not likely to excel. Interestingly, he hasn't done the same for Darnold or Mayfield with more data to go on. Why is he doing it? Because he didn't like the pick and threw a fit on air.
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No one would give a shit. No one would check out the link. It’s all about the revenue
Disagree completely. McShay isn't some internet journalist (or Skip Bayless). His claim to fame is that of a draft guru. He's not going to say something for the sake of clicks.
Not about revenue, but it is about wanting to be right. When it comes to Daniel Jones, he and Kiper are both guilty of it. McShay thought he would be a backup scrub, so he sees everything through the most negative lens possible. He wants to be right. That's how you end up with this article. Kiper thought he would be a starter with a long NFL career, so it's no surprise when he says yesterday, "I've watched every NFL throw Jones has made and I think the Giants are set at QB for a decade".
People on BBI are guilty of it too. Rooting for what makes them right as opposed to just letting things play out and judging it in an unbiased fashion.
McShay's narrative is trying to portray Jones as a QB not likely to excel. Interestingly, he hasn't done the same for Darnold or Mayfield with more data to go on. Why is he doing it? Because he didn't like the pick and threw a fit on air.
Bingo.
Can you teach pocket feel? Can you really coach a player to sense the rush around him without taking his eyes off the downfield reads?
I dont know, but I'm wagering that the reality is probably something closer to that than "the giants ruined my mock draft, so I'll just dislike jones professionally forever."
If we were #15 and access to Burrow wasn't a reality, I'd be right there saying to just move forward with Jones. But ours (like Arizona's last year) is an unusual situation. We might actually be able to draft Burrow without a trade up.
So even if Gettleman keeps the GM job...if his talent evaluators come back to him and say, "Look, I know we just took Jones but we like Burrow better"...shouldn't Gettleman seriously consider taking Burrow and trading Jones?
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In comment 14713769 Saos1n said:
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No one would give a shit. No one would check out the link. It’s all about the revenue
Disagree completely. McShay isn't some internet journalist (or Skip Bayless). His claim to fame is that of a draft guru. He's not going to say something for the sake of clicks.
Not about revenue, but it is about wanting to be right. When it comes to Daniel Jones, he and Kiper are both guilty of it. McShay thought he would be a backup scrub, so he sees everything through the most negative lens possible. He wants to be right. That's how you end up with this article. Kiper thought he would be a starter with a long NFL career, so it's no surprise when he says yesterday, "I've watched every NFL throw Jones has made and I think the Giants are set at QB for a decade".
People on BBI are guilty of it too. Rooting for what makes them right as opposed to just letting things play out and judging it in an unbiased fashion.
You are correct. We all have certain biases that we hope we are correct about. There are likely people that may be rooting against Jones simply because they didn't like the pick. I think most who aren't sold on him yet (I'm one of them) truly have not seen enough to believe he is the guy. He's had some nice moments and some disturbing ones. Just because you're not sold on a guy doesn't mean you're rooting against him.
There's a metric that gives us an unbiased, completely objective view: W-L record. The W-L record tells us that, under the Gettleman/Shurmur regime, the Giants are the worst team in the NFL and the worst Giants team in four decades.
That's it. The oceans of excuses and rationalizations don't clean up the basic fact that out of 32 GM/HC combos, Gettleman/Shurmur finish 32nd.
The rest is bullshit.
If we were #15 and access to Burrow wasn't a reality, I'd be right there saying to just move forward with Jones. But ours (like Arizona's last year) is an unusual situation. We might actually be able to draft Burrow without a trade up.
So even if Gettleman keeps the GM job...if his talent evaluators come back to him and say, "Look, I know we just took Jones but we like Burrow better"...shouldn't Gettleman seriously consider taking Burrow and trading Jones?
I absolutely agree he should consider it. However with his gargantuan ego and the idiotic "full bloom love" statement, I can't see him doing it (not to mention the all-time classic "I know for a fact" sound bite).
There's a metric that gives us an unbiased, completely objective view: W-L record. The W-L record tells us that, under the Gettleman/Shurmur regime, the Giants are the worst team in the NFL and the worst Giants team in four decades.
That's it. The oceans of excuses and rationalizations don't clean up the basic fact that out of 32 GM/HC combos, Gettleman/Shurmur finish 32nd.
The rest is bullshit.
Nailed it!!!
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but to see the franchise reverse course on him after one year would be more alarms going off around their scouting and judgement. They'd almost have to trade him for more parts if they picked another QB at the top.
I don't think moving him for a first rounder (or some other appealing package of picks) is a crazy notion. I'd imagine the timeline like this:
Dec/Jan: Giants finish 2-14, get 1st overall pick, Gettleman/Shurmur fired & replacement hired
March: New league year starts, Giants contact QB needy teams about interest in Jones. Potentially QB-needy teams off the top of my head that will have picks in middle/second half of the first round: NE, PIT, TEN, DAL, CHI, TB. Giants trade Jones for latter half first rounder.
April: Giants draft Burrow and still have another first round pick
Gettleman has to go for this to play out, obviously. There's no way he picks another QB.
I'd have to see Mara sign off on it too, we know they get attached to some of these young men.
If you think Jones has a great future, that's fine. You just don't have any proof, because none exists. We have to take it on faith.
1. Talent evaluation - will our evaluators determine that Burrow is a better prospect than Jones?
2. Front office - if the evaluators report to the GM (whoever it is) that Burrow is a better prospect than Jones, will the front office leave their biases aside and be open to selecting Burrow? If Gettleman is fired, will Mara be open to hiring a candidate who thinks Burrow is a better prospect?
We want Jones to succeed because he's already in the building, but for once can we just cast that aside and try to approach this like a detective or a scientist would? Can we just let the data and observations stand on their own?
This is what I'm getting at when I say the Giants hope to win instead of trying to win. They shouldn't be merely hoping Jones pans out. They should be evaluating him rigorously and without bias...particularly this year when there may be a realistic opportunity at a potentially superior alternative. Evaluate Jones, evaluate Burrow...go where the evidence takes you. If upon evaluation Jones is the preferred alternative, stick with Jones. But if he isn't, be open to that possibility too.
Shouldn't that be the process? And if it should, are we confident that that actually IS the process being employed in the building? Or do we think that Jones is on scholarship? Because personally I think it's the latter, and Peter King said likewise: "Any candidate that doesn't believe in Daniel Jones probably isn't getting a second interview."
Major fucking problem.
The stats that are used are compelling in a vacuum
However, what they don’t tell you is the following :
Jones has the highest percentage of completion in contested receptions
Jones receivers have the least separation at 2.5 yards in the NFL
Jones has the most contested td passes
Jones has been pressured more than any other QB
For most of the season the Giants had virtually no running game
Jones has three games where he contributed 12 tds without an interception
As for Jones fumbles, three came when he was extending running plays
Most of his fumbles in the pocket occurred when the line allowed penetration within 3 seconds. I don’t know the league statistics of QBs fumbling when hit from the blindside within 3 seconds, but, I imagine that it would be quite high
So what you have with Jones is a rookie QB who makes mistakes and does not read and react well to zone coverages
This cause him to hold the ball longer and makes him susceptible to pressure
But he is athletic, the third fastest QB in the NFL (he has been timed at over 19 mph) only behind Jackson and Watson.
Has a strong and accurate arm
Has control of the pocket
Let’s see what happens with a better coaching staff and a year of experience
And if we're picking 1st since Jones was that bad, you get Trevor Lawrence.
1. Talent evaluation - will our evaluators determine that Burrow is a better prospect than Jones?
2. Front office - if the evaluators report to the GM (whoever it is) that Burrow is a better prospect than Jones, will the front office leave their biases aside and be open to selecting Burrow? If Gettleman is fired, will Mara be open to hiring a candidate who thinks Burrow is a better prospect?
We want Jones to succeed because he's already in the building, but for once can we just cast that aside and try to approach this like a detective or a scientist would? Can we just let the data and observations stand on their own?
This is what I'm getting at when I say the Giants hope to win instead of trying to win. They shouldn't be merely hoping Jones pans out. They should be evaluating him rigorously and without bias...particularly this year when there may be a realistic opportunity at a potentially superior alternative. Evaluate Jones, evaluate Burrow...go where the evidence takes you. If upon evaluation Jones is the preferred alternative, stick with Jones. But if he isn't, be open to that possibility too.
Shouldn't that be the process? And if it should, are we confident that that actually IS the process being employed in the building? Or do we think that Jones is on scholarship? Because personally I think it's the latter, and Peter King said likewise: "Any candidate that doesn't believe in Daniel Jones probably isn't getting a second interview."
Major fucking problem.
There is no positive way of knowing if Burrow will be better than Jones. The draft is all about hoping someone pans out the way you think he will.
Lots of QBs drafted over the years don't pan out the way people thought they would, both positively and negatively.
And that's the problem - if you draft Burrow, trade Jones and Burrow doesn't pan out, now you lost your QB and potentially one of the best DE/Edge prospects to come out in quite some time.
We should use the #2 spot to do the most to improve this team. If it is drafting an impact pass rusher - that's one option. If it is using the value of that draft slot to trade down and accumulate more assets to spread across the OL and other positions, that is another option.
Using a pick on a QB at this point would be a bigger blunder than any other one people rail upon here daily. I can't see any evaluation of Jones based on his play this year that would consider him unfit to be a starter.
A blunder is drafting a running back second overall. That's a gigantic fucking blunder.
For the fake GM search in 2017, you could use the above with one adjustment:
"Any candidate that doesn't believe in Eli Manning isn't getting a second interview."
Kiper: No, and hear me out: I would take Burrow. Yes, the Redskins used the No. 15 pick on Dwayne Haskins in April's draft, but Burrow is going to have a much higher grade on my board. Washington is going to have a new coach (and potentially front office) who isn't tied to Haskins. Let Burrow and Haskins duke it out, like they did when Haskins won the job at Ohio State in 2018. It's worth noting that Arizona just did this with Josh Rosen in 2018 and Kyler Murray in 2019.
So it looks Kiper thinks out of the box too. And it's hard to accuse him of having any ax to grind...