We are unlikely to get the 1st pick — but what if we do and after the combine/workouts Burrow is not just seen as a potential Goff, but as a Luck. Daniel Jones showed flashes of excellence, but also some causes of concern. Considering everything (the importance of the position, the sunk cost of the #6 pick, giving up Chase Young etc), would you consider pulling an Arizona (Murray/Rosen) and start fresh with Burrow? Or are you resolute on building around Jones?
I personally think Burrow would have to be seen as once every 5-10 year type guy to move on from Jones — in other words, I wouldn’t rule it out. Where do you stand?
However, if we wanted to seriously consider him as a replacement for Jones I think there is some merit there.
I will say that I don’t follow college ball. But for the last two years all I’ve heard about from CFB is Tua and Fromm for this coming draft. Nobody on any serious level spoke about Burrow. But now he’s the man. That worries me.
But again, I think everything should be on the table if DG is gone. And if he’s not, well, I’d still be ok with grabbing a potential great QB and letting the two of them duke it out.
Rosen diminished his own value by sucking his rookie year. The Cards still got a late 2nd and a 5th for him. Jones should still bring back a first round pick bc of his play this year. He's already shown enough to warrant that kind of return and with 3 more years on a rookie deal plus option year.
I want to see Burrow in his pro day, combine, etc. Long way to go but if the grade is significantly higher than Jones's the year prior, I'd absolutely trade Jones and keep Burrow.
I want the specific QB that makes us a perennial playoff team. There are so few like that.
I will say that I don’t follow college ball. But for the last two years all I’ve heard about from CFB is Tua and Fromm for this coming draft. Nobody on any serious level spoke about Burrow. But now he’s the man. That worries me.
But again, I think everything should be on the table if DG is gone. And if he’s not, well, I’d still be ok with grabbing a potential great QB and letting the two of them duke it out.
The best thing that happened to Burrow and LSU football was Joe Brady. He's the assistant HC and OC. He's a very modern, forward thinking coach. He's brought LSU out of the Ice Age of Offense. Why he isn't being spoken about as an NFL HC candidate is a bit bewildering to me.
All that said, Brady still needed Burrow to execute and Burrow has at a phenomenal level. And against THE best competition in America.
Fromm had a rough year, especially the last six weeks. He was miserable. He seriously needs to consider going back to Athens and sharpening up his game.
Or Burrow plus whatever you can get for Jones?
I'm not sure there is value there.
Or Burrow plus whatever you can get for Jones?
I'm not sure there is value there.
Yeah, Young and Jones would be a lot to give up for Burrow. It would feel like a step back. But, there is nothing better in the NFL then having a true star QB. Tough call.
Or Burrow plus whatever you can get for Jones?
I'm not sure there is value there.
Yes, you'd have to trade Jones in this scenario.
The best outcome, in my mind, is to get the #1 pick, and charge an RG3-like ransom for the spot. That could fetch multiple ones and a two or three, or multiple threes.
Drum up trade talks, get the best deal you can and draft Burrow.
I like Jones, but if that is what the new regime feels is the best option, do it
But I'm not sure about that with Burrow. No one else had been talking about him as an elite draft prospect before this season, so just one great year where he shoots up the draft boards doesn't make me feel as good as if this was a guy we knew was going to be the top pick in the draft years ahead of time.
Burrow has had a great year, don't get me wrong, and he is absolutely deserving of the Heisman, but let's remember that he has a fantastic supporting cast. I'd say three guys (his RB and 2 of his WRs) this year are all guys who will ultimately be 1st-3rd round draft picks someday. Jones didn't have all that.
I really like what I've seen from Jones this year. If you disregard the fumbles, he had a fantastic rookie season and looks like a potential pro bowl -caliber QB someday. I think the fumbles are one of those types of weaknesses that can absolutely be addressed and improved upon, and I trust Jones has the worth ethic to improve in that area. I think the TB game he did prove that he doesn't blink under the bright lights and can shine in clutch moments, which is another important thing you look for in QBs.
If we feel we have a franchise QB who is a flat-out winner and potential future champion, then we're good to go, and we'd have to consider the fact that we'd be missing out on Chase Young, who is the type of talent that can turn a defense around quickly.
Having an *elite* pass rush (not just pass rusher, but pass rush) is possibly just as important as having an elite QB. And I know he can't create all of the pass rush himself, but he is a massive step toward having an elite pass rush.
I know having an elite QB is essential to winning a SB most of the time (which is why it's important to get that piece right, I understand), but every Giants SB-winning team (all 4) has had an elite pass rush and a particularly special pass-rusher who offenses lay awake worrying about (LT, LT, Tuck, JPP). I know those guys all had help as well, but I at the very least every one of those teams did have 1 guy who was, at that time, maybe the most dangerous pass rusher in the league (and I do say that about Tuck in '07 because of the mismatch he created inside and by the time the playoffs rolled around he was literally unstoppable).
Quote:
Is Burrow > Young + Jones?
Or Burrow plus whatever you can get for Jones
I'm not sure there is value there.
Yes, you'd have to trade Jones in this scenario.
The best outcome, in my mind, is to get the #1 pick, and charge an RG3-like ransom for the spot. That could fetch multiple ones and a two or three, or multiple threes.
I think the Dolphins have THREE first rounders this year ... hmmm
But I'm not sure about that with Burrow. No one else had been talking about him as an elite draft prospect before this season, so just one great year where he shoots up the draft boards doesn't make me feel as good as if this was a guy we knew was going to be the top pick in the draft years ahead of time.
Burrow has had a great year, don't get me wrong, and he is absolutely deserving of the Heisman, but let's remember that he has a fantastic supporting cast. I'd say three guys (his RB and 2 of his WRs) this year are all guys who will ultimately be 1st-3rd round draft picks someday. Jones didn't have all that.
I really like what I've seen from Jones this year. If you disregard the fumbles, he had a fantastic rookie season and looks like a potential pro bowl -caliber QB someday. I think the fumbles are one of those types of weaknesses that can absolutely be addressed and improved upon, and I trust Jones has the worth ethic to improve in that area. I think the TB game he did prove that he doesn't blink under the bright lights and can shine in clutch moments, which is another important thing you look for in QBs.
If we feel we have a franchise QB who is a flat-out winner and potential future champion, then we're good to go, and we'd have to consider the fact that we'd be missing out on Chase Young, who is the type of talent that can turn a defense around quickly.
Having an *elite* pass rush (not just pass rusher, but pass rush) is possibly just as important as having an elite QB. And I know he can't create all of the pass rush himself, but he is a massive step toward having an elite pass rush.
I know having an elite QB is essential to winning a SB most of the time (which is why it's important to get that piece right, I understand), but every Giants SB-winning team (all 4) has had an elite pass rush and a particularly special pass-rusher who offenses lay awake worrying about (LT, LT, Tuck, JPP). I know those guys all had help as well, but I at the very least every one of those teams did have 1 guy who was, at that time, maybe the most dangerous pass rusher in the league (and I do say that about Tuck in '07 because of the mismatch he created inside and by the time the playoffs rolled around he was literally unstoppable).
Really substantial and well-reasoned answer. Hope the leg is feeling better!
So, sticking with Jones, no matter how highly Burrow is graded?
https://247sports.com/Article/cfb-analyst-says-oregon-quarterback-justin-herbert-should-be-earning-more-heisman-attention--138794195/
I agree that guys moving up and down makes me nervous. The consensus changes every month and is usually wrong.
Burrow ain't a fit here.
https://247sports.com/Article/cfb-analyst-says-oregon-quarterback-justin-herbert-should-be-earning-more-heisman-attention--138794195/
I agree that guys moving up and down makes me nervous. The consensus changes every month and is usually wrong.
Herbert is still the same prospect as he was last year. A guy will all the tools that we dont know if he can process an NFL offense. Dont think we've ever even seen his head turn in the pocket. Its 1st read or tuck it.
This fan absolutely believed this to be a legitimate scenario.
Fans come up with a lot of ridiculous possibilities where their teams are concerned.
I think that the idea of the Giants moving on from Jones, while not as wild as the above conspiracy theory, is pretty unrealistic nevertheless
This year the star is Burrow whose name was never mentioned last year.
But I also think Jones and Young is much better than Burrows, alone. Aside from the fumbles, I liked what I saw in Jones. I'm not sure he isn't as good as Eli in his prime. He throws a better ball than Eli ever did. What we don't know is if he has Eli's dedication and moxie.
While it is intriguing, trading the #1(if they get it) for two #1s and more, but losing out on Young would be hard. I do not know who the 2nd best ER is, but if there is one close, then it might be worth it.
I don't care if Burrow is god (no offense, Lord). If you took the (future) greatest QB of all time and put him in the middle of this shitshow not a thing would change. More realistically, if Patrick Mahomes, Lamar Jackson, Jimmy Garoppolo, or Tom Brady were the NYG QB they would still suck.
Winning teams are a cast of characters. The NYG problem is that you need 53 and we have six or seven. In fact, that would be an interesting, new stat to compile for teams - how many NFL caliber players do they have, divided by 53. So, a typical Belichek team might have 49/53. Right now, the NYG score is one of the lowest in team history (and, yes, Shurmur is terrible, but part of the REASON NYG have a terrible coach is that no football-wise NFL level coach would take a job like this one).
Daniel Jones replacing Tom Brady could take the Patriots to the SB. Daniel Jones replacing Lamar Jackson could take the Ravens to the SB. Tom Brady's fucking BACKUP could take the 49ers to the SB.
Maybe the latest college big name would grade out higher than DJ. Maybe.
But taking Burrow would put off improving the team at the other 20 or so positions that are critically in need of an upgrade to run after the "franchise QB is the savior" myth.
Don't even think about it. Face it. NYG need 10+ new NFL caliber players to allow us to not appear in public with paper bags on our heads. The QB position is not the problem.
New coach and staff might think that Jones isn't a good fit for his system.
New GM might think he or she (wouldn't that be something - the Giants making that move) doesn't want to be tied to guy like Jones, who he or she didn't pick.
He also is a very good coach. The OC they bought in from New Orleans has made a huge difference. I am interested to see how he performs in the playoffs as well as how the better teams play against LSU with more time to prepare.
Quote:
Is Burrow > Young + Jones?
Or Burrow plus whatever you can get for Jones?
I'm not sure there is value there.
Yeah, Young and Jones would be a lot to give up for Burrow. It would feel like a step back. But, there is nothing better in the NFL then having a true star QB. Tough call.
It would actually be Burrows AND whatever we get for Jones for Young and Jones.
But I'm not sure about that with Burrow. No one else had been talking about him as an elite draft prospect before this season, so just one great year where he shoots up the draft boards doesn't make me feel as good as if this was a guy we knew was going to be the top pick in the draft years ahead of time.
Burrow has had a great year, don't get me wrong, and he is absolutely deserving of the Heisman, but let's remember that he has a fantastic supporting cast. I'd say three guys (his RB and 2 of his WRs) this year are all guys who will ultimately be 1st-3rd round draft picks someday. Jones didn't have all that.
I really like what I've seen from Jones this year. If you disregard the fumbles, he had a fantastic rookie season and looks like a potential pro bowl -caliber QB someday. I think the fumbles are one of those types of weaknesses that can absolutely be addressed and improved upon, and I trust Jones has the worth ethic to improve in that area. I think the TB game he did prove that he doesn't blink under the bright lights and can shine in clutch moments, which is another important thing you look for in QBs.
If we feel we have a franchise QB who is a flat-out winner and potential future champion, then we're good to go, and we'd have to consider the fact that we'd be missing out on Chase Young, who is the type of talent that can turn a defense around quickly.
Having an *elite* pass rush (not just pass rusher, but pass rush) is possibly just as important as having an elite QB. And I know he can't create all of the pass rush himself, but he is a massive step toward having an elite pass rush.
I know having an elite QB is essential to winning a SB most of the time (which is why it's important to get that piece right, I understand), but every Giants SB-winning team (all 4) has had an elite pass rush and a particularly special pass-rusher who offenses lay awake worrying about (LT, LT, Tuck, JPP). I know those guys all had help as well, but I at the very least every one of those teams did have 1 guy who was, at that time, maybe the most dangerous pass rusher in the league (and I do say that about Tuck in '07 because of the mismatch he created inside and by the time the playoffs rolled around he was literally unstoppable).
Basically, this^^^... IMO, Burrow is the cleanest QB prospect to come out since Luck... That being said, I don't see him as enough of an upgrade to pull the plug on Daniel Jones, who I still think his the potential to be a top-tier QB... If this was Trevor Lawrence, totally different story
While I agree that Chase is our guy, the reason they didn't keep him was because they were not going to bench 5th year starter JT Barrett in his last year. Burrow transferred a year before Fields arrived.
Also, if you want to use that same argument, switch some names around. "why didnt Georgia keep him? they went with Fromm instead..."
Georgia had to play Fromm, they weren't going to bench him for Fields, despite Fields being the better prospect. So they continue to run their 1993 offense with Jake Fromm and they missed the playoffs because of it.
If this were 2021, I'd take Lawrence in a second...
All in all, if we wind up with the number one pick, our best bet would be to sell it to the highest bidder. This realistically may wind up being Cincinnati sitting at 2 where we could still get Chase Young and also net more draft capital.
He is delivering on those advantages and he's obviously very mobile.
Nobody can really scout and project a QB to the NFL Level, and it's hard for Me to see that He is an abvious upgrade to DJ.
I am very IN on DJ....pleassantly surprised by what he's shown and done, and optimistic that he can be a top tier guy---10th and better.
Don't take my word for it, ask the Ohio State coaching staff, which included Joe's dad.
Let's have our GM take a deep unbiased look at Jones, Burrow and Young, and make the best decision for the Giants to get back to competing for titles.
That is not the case at all. Their offensive line is good, not great, and Burrow has been under pressure in more games than I can count. Before the season, he didn't have a running back worthy of talking about, and the defense, up until the last couple of games, had been terrible.
Don't take my word for it, ask the Ohio State coaching staff, which included Joe's dad.
Yeah, Burrow has the stats but I'm not sure he is as good of a prospect as Haskins was.
I really don't understand Giants fans. As a rookie QB, what else did you need to see? 30-40 TDs?
The fumbles have to be cut down, but what else did this kid do to make you think that he isn't going to be a good player in this league.
Luck threw for 23 TDs, 18 picks, 58% completion percentage and fumbled 10 times Rookies have to learn. Jones played pretty well this year, don't trade him away for a chance to try and strike gold twice.
This is why everyone says if you pick the wrong QB it sets you back years. You can't keep trying to replace them or you end up with a team with a great QB but nothing else.
Quote:
Is Burrow > Young + Jones?
Or Burrow plus whatever you can get for Jones?
I'm not sure there is value there.
Yeah, Young and Jones would be a lot to give up for Burrow. It would feel like a step back. But, there is nothing better in the NFL then having a true star QB. Tough call.
I think the Giants are heavily invested in Jones. And Jones has flashed enough to have them very encouraged about his future. This has been an abomination of a season and one of thise where it's hard to get true grades on players because the coaching has been so bad. Add in the OL play and all the injuries I think Jones grade on the 'curve' is pretty good.
I highly highly doubt they move on from DJ especially since while Burrow looks good he doesn't look like that uber elite prospect like a Luck or a Peyton Manning.
But Chase looks like one of those elite edge guys that come once every 5-10 years or so.
This year the star is Burrow whose name was never mentioned last year.
Lead up to the 2018 draft, Lamar Jackson wasn't being mentioned in the same breath as Darnold, Mayfield, Rosen and Allen, so what you're saying really isn't a big deal. All the talk were of this four as a group, there were so many articles about them, always mentioned as an elite group and Jackson was almost always mentioned as being the next level down, the most common reason given being that he was viewed as lacking accuracy. And don't forget also he wasn't the first player drafted by the Ravens either. Plus, early on, there was some ridiculous talk of getting him to play as a wide reciever.
Imagine sucking to get the #1 pick in 2021 to get Lawrence. That would mean not drafting a QB this coming Spring. I could see the Bengals or the Dolphins doing that, which would mean they would draft Chase Young.
If every year you draft the same positions you will never improve. I think DJ can be a good QB in this league and more and more QBs lately have been successful lower down in the draft. Its more about the supporting cast or designing an O to meet the strengths of your team. Our supporting cast sucks and our coach cant design the O around our best players.
My pov says you add Chase and a good ILB and the dominoes all begin to fall in place on defense - assuming ascension among the young DBs.
And this SHOULD BE a defensively led team.
Gettleman wouldn't make such a move. This scenario is only possible if a new GM comes in and thinks Burrow is an upgrade over Jones. That begs the question: would Mara even hire someone that held that opinion?
Although, at least the question of - Do we need to scrap Jones and go QB #1 has more merit than the last GM and coach were asked during the interview process...Can you win with a 37 year old franchise icon that's on his last leg but we want to try one more run?
Quote:
With our first pick, we will be the Browns. Then the BBI meltdown over Dave Gettleman will be unbearable
Gettleman wouldn't make such a move. This scenario is only possible if a new GM comes in and thinks Burrow is an upgrade over Jones. That begs the question: would Mara even hire someone that held that opinion?
If we end up with the first pick somehow, I can see us drafting then trading him. Similar to Eli.
I still like Jones. I could be wrong, but that's what I'd shoot for.