Is Franchise Tag the Fallback on Williams?

If they tag him then either use the extra time to work out a friendlier contract or trade him, then go for it.

To tag him and have him play for that price tag? No way.

you pay him the $17 mil for just 1 year, get a clearer picture, trade him, etc. He’s talented, but can he be part of a winning defense (at an appropriate price..

whose last sack came in week 5 of last year? Someone who only has 2 tackle for loss after 13 weeks?

Are Giant fans idiots? I mean even if he is an interior guy you'd expect some stats like a random coverage sack or something.. Jets DL actually improved in run blocking after he left.. What exactly makes this guy good? Are the rest of NFL teams missing something when they want their interior guys to get sacks and we are ok with someone not having one in about 23 weeks of NFL games?

Franchise him and buy some extra time to sign him, or if you come to a stalemante play him at that number to see if he earns and extension worthy of that.

He's not walking. It's not happening. I know some folks here would love to see that to add to their Gettleman bashing arsenal, but it's not happening.

In comment 14714196 chuckydee9 said:

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Are Giant fans idiots?

Yes

However, they watch thwe games and see a defense that has gotten much better since he's been here. They'd prefer to spend the offseason adding players who make us better rather than replacing players who have left which is what we've done for two years to disastrous effect.

In comment 14714231 WillieYoung said:

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However, they watch thwe games and see a defense that has gotten much better since he's been here. They'd prefer to spend the offseason adding players who make us better rather than replacing players who have left which is what we've done for two years to disastrous effect.

No no... Some of them truly are idiots. I agree with the rest of what you said, though.

they’ll sign him long term.

.

Is this for fucking real? Williams has played one good game as a Giant. He is a one-dimensional player who doesn’t offer much of anything against the pass.

We’re going to pay this guy $17M because Gettleman made a bad trade and wants to cover his tracks? This only compounds a massive error in judgment.

I have also seen multiple people on this site say things like “we get Chase Young and we have an elite pass rush.” No we won’t. We’ll have Chase Young and a bunch of guys. There is no other plus player on this line. We certainly hope that Dex gets there in time, but not yet. Golden isn’t signed and a huge number of his sacks this year are on straight runs at the quarterback. And the aforementioned Williams is a one dimensional player. If he hadn’t been drafted 6th overall, no one would even care about him.

I don’t understand how after ten wins in three years we still have a fanbase deluded about the level of talent on this team. Stop accepting mediocrity. If the Giants tag Williams, there should be a riot in front of MetLife.

In comment 14714231 WillieYoung said:

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However, they watch thwe games and see a defense that has gotten much better since he's been here. They'd prefer to spend the offseason adding players who make us better rather than replacing players who have left which is what we've done for two years to disastrous effect.

Have we actually gotten better or is it because we played teams like the bears and eagles who by the end of the game didn't even have a 2nd dressed WR? What happened when we faced the cowboys? Did our D look good in that second game?

How did we look against GB? Did Rodgers have time to do cook his dinner back there while waiting for his 5th WR to get open down the field repeatedly?

plus Ximines and Golden is a damn good lineup for pass rush.

your torch is waiting.

In comment 14714233 Britt in VA said:

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In comment 14714231 WillieYoung said: Quote: However, they watch thwe games and see a defense that has gotten much better since he's been here. They'd prefer to spend the offseason adding players who make us better rather than replacing players who have left which is what we've done for two years to disastrous effect. No no... Some of them truly are idiots. I agree with the rest of what you said, though.

Yes, what a bunch of idiots to not see the dramatic defensive resurgence of the 2-11 New York Giants!

In comment 14714255 Britt in VA said:

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plus Ximines and Golden is a damn good lineup for pass rush.

It’s average. Look around the league. And we will have invested $30M in cap space in the same line that allows any half decent team to have all day to throw every week this season + Chase Young.

It lowers the overall cost a little. Williams is a good player, above average. At some point you have to pay to keep good players. We let our DT talent go and had to keep replacing the same positions. Joeseph should have been signed but we let him walk only to draft another DT to replace him. We had a cost savings but we also used a draft pick and then we also signed Snacks.

Ideally you want to sign a guy long term even if its big money because salaries are going up every year anyway. Next year the cost for DT is going to rise so may as well sign a guy that is good to a solid deal that may be on the cheap year 4 and 5.

He is currently our best dlineman, we have tons of dough, and the going rate will catch up.

...or we can downgrade our miserable defense for the sake of principle.

Gettleman and get somebody here that isn't so fucking pathetic that an idiot like me from behind my keyboard knows better then to sign a mediocre player to a contract that would be for a premium player because a bafoon made a horrible trade, and placed himself in a no win negotiating spot, that is a real fucking idiot. Where was Mara to tell him no?

This. Williams can get after RB's, and that has value. I can't see paying him as a top DT though. He could be a valuable piece if you can add a very good ER. Golden would thrive in a situation where OL's had to account for, let's say, Chase Young.

doesn't mean we haven't improved. We've gone from near the bottom in run defense to middle of the pact. Basically, we are back to where we were before we shipped out Snacks. Now people want to let Williams go in the hopes we can get back to mediocre in two more years.

I now have to acknowledge that Giants fans are idiots.

-Franchise cost vs unused cap is a no brainer for him
-Which itself is very effective negotiating leverage for a LT deal
-Which I would absolutely do for what he is
-My comp for LW is Chris Canty
-- great signing back then
-- a six-year, $42 million contract, $17.25 million guaranteed.
--10 YEARS AGO

SO IF LW signs for 5 for 65, 30 gteed that works for me
Otherwise franchise him




Canty stats - ( New Window )

is $15.5 mill, less than I expected. Transition is about $12.5. I could live with giving LW the franchise tag and look to sign him long term at a number near an AAV of $15-16 mill.

Recind it before the season if we cant trade him while on the tag and get our 3rd round pick back... doubt we get for Williams what Houston got for Clowney (peanuts)

In comment 14714198 Britt in VA said:

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Franchise him and buy some extra time to sign him, or if you come to a stalemante play him at that number to see if he earns and extension worthy of that. He's not walking. It's not happening. I know some folks here would love to see that to add to their Gettleman bashing arsenal, but it's not happening.

Believe it or not, Britt, many here who bash Gettleman would prefer that he not give them more ammunition. In fact, I think most would prefer to have a GM that didn't make so many fucking mistakes to begin with so they didn't have any room to complain at all.

I'm sure there are some who bash for sport. But the vast majority would just like to have the Giants not be a fucking laughingstock anymore. We can't all get our warm and fuzzies from the pregame show being more enjoyable without OBJ on the roster the way that some can.

In comment 14714255 Britt in VA said:

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plus Ximines and Golden is a damn good lineup for pass rush.

No, it's an unproven not-even-a-rookie-yet, two guys who get pressure but no sacks, another guy who looks a half-step slow (but has potential, though raw), and a guy who is not even currently signed for 2020 and beyond.

Your capacity for blind optimism is beyond insane; it's pathological.

We need to start making smart moves - not compounding dumb ones.

Clean house with DG, Shurmer, et al and let the new GM/coach work with the cap space to build a competitive team.

Williams is not an impact guy - he’s a solid run stuffer. Not a pass rusher. Period. It’s his fifth year - that’s what he is. Those kind of players are not worth double-digit millions, let alone $17+ million... ridiculousness.

In comment 14714277 Rudy5757 said:

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It lowers the overall cost a little. Williams is a good player, above average. At some point you have to pay to keep good players. We let our DT talent go and had to keep replacing the same positions. Joeseph should have been signed but we let him walk only to draft another DT to replace him. We had a cost savings but we also used a draft pick and then we also signed Snacks. Ideally you want to sign a guy long term even if its big money because salaries are going up every year anyway. Next year the cost for DT is going to rise so may as well sign a guy that is good to a solid deal that may be on the cheap year 4 and 5.

Transition tag and franchise tag will be the same price for LW unless he is classified as a DE (which all the RD-philiacs claim is not likely) due to him being on his 5th year option as a top-10 pick and having been classified as a DE by the NFL this past year for the Jets.

In this case though, leaving the tag cost aside, do you really want to go the transition route? With this much open cap space across the league, someone is bound to consider overpaying him - what's their downside in signing him to an aggressive offer sheet? Ordinarily, it's that their cap space is tied up waiting for the current team to act on their right of first refusal, but for a team like the Cowboys or Colts, they have more money than the Giants do even if they keep some locked up in an offer sheet for a few days, so they really won't feel the pinch. Then you're left with a choice to overpay on someone else's terms, or to let the player walk for nothing. IIRC, you can't negotiate your own contract as a counter to the offer sheet on the transition tag.

If you're serious about keeping him and you don't have a deal in place before FA opens (and I feel like it's pretty likely that RD won't), you put the non-exclusive franchise tag on him. That's not what I'd do, but I wouldn't have traded for him in the first place. I'd have rolled the dice that a good-not-great player would make it to free agency.

In comment 14714343 Section331 said:

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is $15.5 mill, less than I expected. Transition is about $12.5. I could live with giving LW the franchise tag and look to sign him long term at a number near an AAV of $15-16 mill.

LW has to get at least $17M on either tag because he can't make less than 120% of his 2019 salary while tagged.

In comment 14714327 V.I.G. said:

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-Franchise cost vs unused cap is a no brainer for him

Is it really a no-brainer? Unused cap space doesn't expire; it rolls over to the following year. I'm not saying they should save it forever, but if you're only looking at cap space as an expiring asset that loses all value on a deadline, that's false reasoning.

How many sacks Is a top-notch Defensive Tackle (NOT named Aaron Donald) supposed to get?

Just curious? What sack number would make him worth a top DT salary?

In comment 14714255 Britt in VA said:

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plus Ximines and Golden is a damn good lineup for pass rush.

Doesnt get more average... add chase young to that group and then maybe we have something

In comment 14714398 David B. said:

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How many sacks Is a top-notch Defensive Tackle (NOT named Aaron Donald) supposed to get? Just curious? What sack number would make him worth a top DT salary?

So you want to look at top-notch DT but leave out the best DT? It's not enough that you're already picking the more advantageous position for this considering the NFL already listed LW as a DE this past season for his 5th year option?

But anyway, I'll play along... is it ok with you if I use the following players as comps? Or are any of these too good to be "top-notch" also?

Cameron Heyward (6.5 sacks per season, 10.2 per year over the past three seasons)
Geno Atkins (8.1 sacks per season, 8.4 per year over the past three)
Chris Jones (8.6 sacks per season, 11.0 per year over the past three)
Fletcher Cox (6.3 sacks per season, 7.3 per year over the past three)
Akiem Hicks (4.7 sacks per season, 7.6 per year over the past three)

Wanna see LW's numbers?

3.6 sacks per season, 2.5 per year over the past three seasons, with ZERO sacks in 2019.

Is that good enough, or am I just being a hater?

QED GTFO.

In comment 14714439 90.Cal said:

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In comment 14714255 Britt in VA said: Quote: plus Ximines and Golden is a damn good lineup for pass rush. Doesnt get more average... add chase young to that group and then maybe we have something

Umm, he included Young in that group.

In comment 14714388 Gatorade Dunk said:

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LW has to get at least $17M on either tag because he can't make less than 120% of his 2019 salary while tagged.

Thanks GD, forgot about the 120 rule. So it does look like he's going to command at least a $17M AAV deal. I don't think he's worth that.

In comment 14714513 Section331 said:

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In comment 14714388 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: LW has to get at least $17M on either tag because he can't make less than 120% of his 2019 salary while tagged. Thanks GD, forgot about the 120 rule. So it does look like he's going to command at least a $17M AAV deal. I don't think he's worth that.

Presumably DG and KA are aware of the tag value and were at the time that they made the trade, which continues to add to the puzzling nature of the trade itself.

They were handing leverage to an impending FA by trading picks for what amounts to little more than just an exclusive negotiating window, with their only viable hammer being a tag where the price tag for guaranteed money starts at $17M for a single year. A multi-year deal is going to include guaranteed money that's probably in the neighborhood of two consecutive tags ($~37.4M), which means that his overall contract value for a long-term deal easily lands at something like $75M/5yrs with half of it guaranteed.

It was an honest question. GFY

In comment 14714532 David B. said:

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It was an honest question. GFY

Maybe next time don't phrase it as a "question for the haters" - just a thought.

In comment 14714398 David B. said:

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How many sacks Is a top-notch Defensive Tackle (NOT named Aaron Donald) supposed to get? Just curious? What sack number would make him worth a top DT salary?

More than 0 in a 23 game period.. No?

Overall we have spent a 2nd round pick on Dalvin, a 3rd on Hill and a first on Dexter Lawrence.. now we spent a super high 3rd plus a 4th just so we can pay for a FA.. who BTW provides the same things as our other 3 DT.. at some point people need to realize that DTs are not the only players we need on Defense.. we need LBs, safeties, corner backs and real edge guys..

But just for CYA purposes they are ok with our GM overpaying for a DT..

... I really don't know what to say. He can be an excellent core piece to the defense. He is not a game wrecker but he is an excellent core piece to the DL.

This teams defensive problems (well, aside from Bettcher) are at inside LB, a geriatric FS, and youth at CB secondary. Add another ER, at least one good ILB (with hopefully Connelly coming back) and a FS. The CBs are being seasoned right now.

If Shurmur goes we will have a new defensive coordinator and we will NEED good solid pieces in place.

If we don't strike a deal with him I can 100% see him being tagged.

because if we tag him at 17mil other teams have the option to counter. this will give HIM an idea of what he's really worth. if he goes we probably get a comp pick. if not, we have a great DT in his prime for a decent price tag.

In comment 14714368 Gatorade Dunk said:

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In comment 14714255 Britt in VA said: Quote: plus Ximines and Golden is a damn good lineup for pass rush. No, it's an unproven not-even-a-rookie-yet, two guys who get pressure but no sacks, another guy who looks a half-step slow (but has potential, though raw), and a guy who is not even currently signed for 2020 and beyond. Your capacity for blind optimism is beyond insane; it's pathological.

OK - what's your plan then? Just scrap the best players we currently have on D, don't draft Young, and trade a 5th and 6th rounder for Kalil Mack and Aaron Donald?

In comment 14714683 Platos said:

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because if we tag him at 17mil other teams have the option to counter. this will give HIM an idea of what he's really worth. if he goes we probably get a comp pick. if not, we have a great DT in his prime for a decent price tag.

There is NO COMP for losing a player for not matching a contract in a Transition Tag situation.

Next.

In comment 14714689 Scuzzlebutt said:

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In comment 14714368 Gatorade Dunk said: Quote: In comment 14714255 Britt in VA said: Quote: plus Ximines and Golden is a damn good lineup for pass rush. No, it's an unproven not-even-a-rookie-yet, two guys who get pressure but no sacks, another guy who looks a half-step slow (but has potential, though raw), and a guy who is not even currently signed for 2020 and beyond. Your capacity for blind optimism is beyond insane; it's pathological. OK - what's your plan then? Just scrap the best players we currently have on D, don't draft Young, and trade a 5th and 6th rounder for Kalil Mack and Aaron Donald?

I think we have to keep building the pass rush obviously, and I'd do it through the draft. But what I wouldn't do is sit here and participate in the circle jerk calling the current mediocrity a "damn good" pass rush when they'd only be adding one rookie, albeit an insanely talented one (and could simultaneously be losing their best current pass rusher in Golden).

But he is also a guy who figures to keep getting better and is not injury prone.

I think he would be a solid signing, especially when you consider the free agent market on defense

This is what people killed Reese for...though Reese wasn't stupid enough to trade draft picks for the right to make this type of mistake.

In comment 14714196 chuckydee9 said:

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whose last sack came in week 5 of last year? Someone who only has 2 tackle for loss after 13 weeks? Are Giant fans idiots?

Same way you trade a 3rd and 5th for a guy you could've had for the same salary you're going to pay him 8 weeks later anyway.

No, the GM is an idiot. Horrible trade but par for the course with Gettleman. At this point, Giants can't let him go. Have to pay or tag him.

In comment 14714671 Johnny5 said:

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... I really don't know what to say. He can be an excellent core piece to the defense. He is not a game wrecker but he is an excellent core piece to the DL. This teams defensive problems (well, aside from Bettcher) are at inside LB, a geriatric FS, and youth at CB secondary. Add another ER, at least one good ILB (with hopefully Connelly coming back) and a FS. The CBs are being seasoned right now. If Shurmur goes we will have a new defensive coordinator and we will NEED good solid pieces in place. If we don't strike a deal with him I can 100% see him being tagged.

Its because most people really dont know how to watch football. All they care about from the DL is sacks, sacks, numbers, numbers. I was always taught that applying pressure to the QB is just as important as the almighty sack, as the pressure forces the QB in to uncomfortable situations. And this isnt even taking in to consideration the ability to stop the run OR the impact a very good DLman can have on his linemates. No numbers applied to that stuff, so the casual fan usually doesnt notice. All about those SACKS!!!!

In comment 14714930 John In CO said:

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In comment 14714671 Johnny5 said: Quote: ... I really don't know what to say. He can be an excellent core piece to the defense. He is not a game wrecker but he is an excellent core piece to the DL. This teams defensive problems (well, aside from Bettcher) are at inside LB, a geriatric FS, and youth at CB secondary. Add another ER, at least one good ILB (with hopefully Connelly coming back) and a FS. The CBs are being seasoned right now. If Shurmur goes we will have a new defensive coordinator and we will NEED good solid pieces in place. If we don't strike a deal with him I can 100% see him being tagged. Its because most people really dont know how to watch football. All they care about from the DL is sacks, sacks, numbers, numbers. I was always taught that applying pressure to the QB is just as important as the almighty sack, as the pressure forces the QB in to uncomfortable situations. And this isnt even taking in to consideration the ability to stop the run OR the impact a very good DLman can have on his linemates. No numbers applied to that stuff, so the casual fan usually doesnt notice. All about those SACKS!!!!

I am glad you know how to watch football.. May be you can tell me how a defense benefits from not having any sacks from a DT over a season and a half? Also do these players get paid 17M per year?

I mean our run defense was already top 10 in ypc before Leonard Williams came in.. I belive we were ranked 7th in the NFL.. Since he has been here we are 3rd.. that marginal improvement.. do you think is worth 17M + 65th pick + another 4th round? BTW we still suck at generating pressure.. before and after Leonard Williams.. Dallas and GB had tons of time to throw it deep... so lets not pretend that all of sudden we have generated a ton of pressure..

https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2020/average/defensive-tackle/

LW is probably comparable to Star L. of Buffalo. He got 5/50

In comment 14714998 uther99 said:

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https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2020/average/defensive-tackle/ LW is probably comparable to Star L. of Buffalo. He got 5/50

LOL. Good one.

In comment 14715064 bw in dc said:

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In comment 14714998 uther99 said: Quote: https://www.spotrac.com/nfl/rankings/2020/average/defensive-tackle/ LW is probably comparable to Star L. of Buffalo. He got 5/50 LOL. Good one.

So you think LW is worth less than that? Not sure what you are "LOL"ing at?

That's not exactly accurate. There is no specific designated compensation as there is in a Franchise Tag. You still go into the regular comp pool for aggregate signings of free agents added or lost.

That said next offseasons available cap dollars and predicted activity make it unlikely we'd qualify in this area.

In comment 14715134 uther99 said:

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So you think LW is worth less than that? Not sure what you are "LOL"ing at?

Let me start over. Do you really think $50M/5 yrs is remotely realistic?

when the team is losing. It's really awful.

I can’t believe there are still people defending this trade. It’s so obviously a huge mistake.

Can anyone tell me another instance in the NFL when a GM for a team completely out of the playoffs traded picks for a player who was only signed until the end of the season? And then, tagged this player? I don’t think it’s ever happened in the history of the NFL.

We all agree that LW is a nice player. The rub here is trading valuable draft picks during a losing season for a player who is on his walk year. This never happens in the NFL. Never. And the reason it never happens is because it makes no sense.

This isn’t me “hating” or bagging on other posters. It’s me trying to hammer home the essential point that Getty is beyond a bad GM. He’s doing things are purely incompetent, he’s not building a winning team.

I’m sorry folks, the emperor has no clothes.

In comment 14715358 trueblueinpw said:

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I can’t believe there are still people defending this trade. It’s so obviously a huge mistake. Can anyone tell me another instance in the NFL when a GM for a team completely out of the playoffs traded picks for a player who was only signed until the end of the season? And then, tagged this player? I don’t think it’s ever happened in the history of the NFL. We all agree that LW is a nice player. The rub here is trading valuable draft picks during a losing season for a player who is on his walk year. This never happens in the NFL. Never. And the reason it never happens is because it makes no sense. This isn’t me “hating” or bagging on other posters. It’s me trying to hammer home the essential point that Getty is beyond a bad GM. He’s doing things are purely incompetent, he’s not building a winning team. I’m sorry folks, the emperor has no clothes.

I think DG has done well in some areas, namely I'm a big fan of his drafts. This trade is pretty indefensible though. Not quite sure it's worth getting rid of him for but it makes it clear to me he's not the guy for the job for much longer.

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No, the GM is an idiot. Horrible trade but par for the course with Gettleman. At this point, Giants can't let him go. Have to pay or tag him.

Exactly. What is done is done; No use crying about it; pay the man what he wants and move on.

In comment 14714198 Britt in VA said:

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Franchise him and buy some extra time to sign him, or if you come to a stalemante play him at that number to see if he earns and extension worthy of that. He's not walking. It's not happening. I know some folks here would love to see that to add to their Gettleman bashing arsenal, but it's not happening.

You're mixed up here. Him walking would actually be good for the team, because it's not another bad long term commitment.

Why are we playing the "let's see if he earns it' game with a fifth-year veteran. THIS is his window to earn his free agent megadeal. This entire season was that timeframe. What purpose would it serve to give him another year, but this time pay him like a top 5 player to see if he becomes something he has never been the first 5 years?

I'm sure they will want him to be happy with his deal, but they will not let him leave. Franchising him for a year is a crappy way of doing business, in my opinion, but its a reality they wouldn't have had without a Trade.

ANY team that had an interest in Him was going to be in the same reality with the same decision...with the same right to Franchise Him. NOBODY was going to Get to Sign Him for 2020, unless The Jets didn't trade him.