The only thing we’ve heard from ownership is a brief comment from Tisch which included no vote of confidence for Gettleman or Shurmur.
Tisch referenced the need for “honest conversations” with Mara.
In the midst of the longest losing streak in franchise history, we’ve heard nothing from Mara. Shurmur is hanging out there like a piñata; there is no comment from ownership stating there is trust with the people in charge, nothing about seeing the plan through.
I think the silence is very telling. That coupled with Tisch’s comments makes me think we will see big changes.
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if Gettleman is done, it will be from stepping down, not being fired, but I don't expect to see a change there.
I think Shurmur will be fired, probably along with the assistants, and Rivera hired.
Of course, that could end up being wrong, but that's what I see happening.
FMiC, I can definitely see that. Mara letting DG know that he is going to be let go and him letting DG "resign" .
+2. Unfortunately, I agree. I'd rather see the Giants hire an up and coming DC to replace Shurmur, but the Giants rarely do anything bold, and certainly won't in the aftermath of one of the worst seasons in franchise history. That's also why DG will remain, along with the fact that he was right to pick Jones at #6. My view is that is not enough to offset all of his mistakes in FA.
They are going to bring someone from the outside to oversee football operations and report to both equally.
I hope to God I'm right.
I hope so.
My sense is they let Gettleman continue to build and they start over with a new coaching staff. Say what you want about Gettleman, but when a mistake is made, he recognizes it and moves on. He will come to this conclusion about the coaching staff (if he has not already) and make the change. But this will be his last hire. If there is a next time, its with an entirely new regime.
Gettleman was hired by accorsi in the "Giants Way", Shurmur had no ties to the team. Prior to coming in as the OC, McAdoo had no ties to the team or to TC or to the owners. And then he is HC and he implements a WC-type offense, a very un-Giants Way thing to do.
So Shurmur could get fired, and Rivera could be hired, and it will be looked at as the "Giants way", even though it is more like The Panthers Way.
Hell, the way the logic gets contorted here, once Reeves came to NY and started importing Broncos, that was probably the Giants Way because he was now a Giant HC and those guys now had ties to him!
The tentacles are long - the logic is short.
Just because every hire doesn’t follow some linear pattern doesn’t mean the Giants don’t have a way of doing things that has been a disaster for 70% of the decade
Gettleman has a vision: strong running game, short passing game, stout defense. Whether you agree with the vision or not, it's a vision and we've spent very high draft picks to implement it. Swapping out GM's means a new vision and starting all over again. Don't see that as any recipe for a quick turnaround.
While Gettleman has a vision, the implementation has been, at best, uneven. His decision to strip the team of talent to have to spend resources at the same positions was idiotic, his free agent signings bad and his hiring of Shurmur a debacle. But, the Shurmur mistake will be rectified and the resources have been spent. His drafting has been at least average which is an improvement over his incompetent predecessor.
He should have another year to implement the vision with another very high draft pick and a last place schedule.
The athletic trainer will get the axe at season's end. Major change by mara!
Tongue-in-cheek, I know, but Ronnie Barnes has his job FOR LIFE... or as long as he wants it! That is about as rock-solid, ironclad-assured as anything I can conceive regarding this franchise.
What does winning or losing have to do with the Giants Way?? I'd see the Giants Way as having a SB victory in every decade since the 80's, but unsurprisingly, it has been turned into a negative as if bringing in non-Giant ties ensures success.
I'm sure you already know this, but everyone's favorite Rhule has giants ties, so is it called the Giants Way if he succeeds or only when he fails?
There has been an incestuous element to how Jints Central has been doing business for a while now. It's stale and predictable. I bet Jints Central smells like my grandmother's apartment. So I believe this approach has run its course, and we need a new approach. The trend line speaks for itself.
As for Rhule, I am not a Rhule guy. Want no part of him. He seems best suited for the college game.
I want a coach who can come in wearing both the HC and GM hats. In other words, I am dreaming...
A vicious cycle of ineptness. When in essence, should hire an "outside" gm (not mara's cronies etc) and "outside" gm hire his hc and go from along a football operations guy.
But, i'll wait for the follies to continue
70% of the decade?? The "Giants way" has been referenced for decades, and rarely in positive references. Yet, we are among the leaders in SB wins and have spread them out from the 80's to today.
In this decade, the Giants have had 3 HC's with vastly different backgrounds and level of experience. Pointing to the failures here as being because of a consistently poor history is just another wayward path to take to vent frustration.
Man I feel badly for fans who have no hope. Don’t know how you stay a fan.
Me, I see franchise with much success, Amit if it after some pretty bad periods of football.
John Mara is perfectly capable of picking a good coach, 0-2 doesn’t mean squat. Give the guy credit for being willing to move on from mistakes
Seems more like just setting up a narrative on which to bash the team if they don't take that path. HC/GM combos rarely work out well.
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I want a coach who can come in wearing both the HC and GM hats. In other words, I am dreaming...
Seems more like just setting up a narrative on which to bash the team if they don't take that path. HC/GM combos rarely work out well.
It's not tried enough. But it has worked with the right leader.
Alas, too many teams default to the infrastructure that's been around for over a half century. And just assume it's the right way to do business. It's superfluous. Too many hands in the cookie jar.
I've used this example before, but colleges don't have a GM picking their recruits. The HCs pick the players he wants to develop and coach for his system. And the FBS is big, big business today - like the NFL.
That's basically true for almost every team. They all have a long stretch or stretches without success - the Patriots included.
This decision should have been made weeks ago.
Terps, this is why when they went to half on Monday up 17-3, I jokingly said to a friend that Eli was about to save Shurmur's job if they actually win this. When it hit me they might actually win, then I realized this would be the out management can use to justify his return similar to when Gettleman used a meaningless December 2017 game against the Eagles as his main case for bringing Eli back for 2018.
When the year ends, Shurmur will have 32 games of Giants data for ownership to work with. The fact that after 90.6% (29 of 32 games) is already in that there is still doubt and ownership is still holding on to the remaining 9.4% to see if there is reason to retain him is very alarming.
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Same people who hired 3 crappy HCs and DG will still be doing the hiring. Mara is joke and has turned this franchise into a joke. I agree we may see major changes, just have a feeling it will lead to more major changes in 2-3 years.
Man I feel badly for fans who have no hope. Don’t know how you stay a fan.
Me, I see franchise with much success, Amit if it after some pretty bad periods of football.
John Mara is perfectly capable of picking a good coach, 0-2 doesn’t mean squat. Give the guy credit for being willing to move on from mistakes
We all have hope. At 2-3 I'm screaming at the TV that it's not too late to have a season.
Now we're 2-11. After going 5-11. After going 3-13.
Time for ownership to start trying to win, and stop hoping to win.
A college coach can literally try and target any player to go after. And some schools have much better means of attracting players. A GM doesn't have the luxury of his choice of any player and he's constrained by a salary cap. It is a horrible example to cite.
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There were two good situations that both happened to cross over a decade.
That's basically true for almost every team. They all have a long stretch or stretches without success - the Patriots included.
Yeah but the patriots latest situation has been going for nearly 20 years.
This is a bed of their own making. They can get out of it, or they can keep living in the '80s.
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I've used this example before, but colleges don't have a GM picking their recruits. The HCs pick the players he wants to develop and coach for his system. And the FBS is big, big business today - like the NFL.
A college coach can literally try and target any player to go after. And some schools have much better means of attracting players. A GM doesn't have the luxury of his choice of any player and he's constrained by a salary cap. It is a horrible example to cite.
The NFL also has profit and marketing requirements that are different than NCAA. I think that’s the major reason why they don’t give the HC the reigns.
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you are setting yourself up for disappointment.
Whether or not it's expected, Gettleman's return will be a disappointment for us all.
Agree completely, but then again firing both Gettleman and Shurmur would be an admission of failure by the ownership and it would deviate from the image of patience that they have tried hard to foster. In looking for an example of patience, look no further than the stands this weekend where tens of thousands of suffering Giant fans will again devote and entire afternoon to watching the lousy product that ownership, DG and PS have been providing for the past two years.
This is a bed of their own making. They can get out of it, or they can keep living in the '80s.
That's not even close to what I said. I've mocked those who continually refer to "The Giants Way", both in that it is a formula always followed or that it should be looked at negatively. The implied outcome is that the Giants are doomed to have terrible years from here on out.
And it is funny to refer to them living in the 80's when they've won 2 SB's in the past 15 years. You honestly think they don't want to improve or are incapable of it??
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has ties to McAdoo.
The Giants Way!
You mean the last coach who took us to the playoffs?
Giant assist from Spags and the D. BTW looking pretty good in KC
Shit, what better proof of this is there than Daniel Jones himself? The guy comes off as an Eli clone...smart, quality guy that's even a Cutcliffe disciple. He even looks a little like him.
I think John Mara is a good man and well intentioned...that gives me hope. As a Mets fan I know what scumbag ownership looks like, and Mara ain't that. But he can be a gentleman and still be lost at sea. He is completely lost with how the NFL functions in 2019. He had an opportunity to listen to some new voices in his last GM search; instead it was a shambolic joke. A deserved 7-22 record later he again has an opportunity to refresh the Giants on current best practices. Because I think Mara's a good, smart man...I'm hoping he takes advantage of this opportunity. He's got a blank slate if he wants it...when Eli leaves there are no sacred cows left.
Now's the fucking time.
We'll have a new coaching staff next season as we should. These two have been so bad at their jobs it's actually going to insulate DG from some of the fallout. He'll be back.
An overseer of all football operations is exactly what bw, many others, and I have been pushing for.
The Giants made a huge mistake not letting Coughlin and Reese go at the same time, let's hope they're not dumb enough to do the same thing this time.
Gettleman has been a train wreck. Giving him an extra year just sets the Giants at least 1 year back in getting this thing turned around.
Terps has been right a hell of a lot more than 99% of BBI when it comes to decisions the Giants have made.
Remember when people ridiculed Terps for saying last year that the Ravens would laugh at the Giants if the Giants offered Barkley for Jackson?
How's that one working out? Oh wait, when Barkley sucks it's everyone elses fault or an injury excuse.
The roster is absolutely awful. The Giants do not have one unit that is a strength.
It's like some people can't possibly believe that the coach sucks AND the GM sucks. It has to be one or the other. The GM has given an awful coach an awful roster, and not surprising we are seeing awful results.
There were people on here that thought this Giants team could contend for a playoff spot the last couple years. That's as delusional as it gets. There isn't a coach in the league who could make this roster a playoff contender.
How could even one person on here want Gettleman being the man who decides what to spend 10's of million dollars in cap space on?
What has Dave Gettleman done for the Giants since he was hired as GM that people on here are happy with? Maybe Daniel Jones, what else?
Who's the 1%?
Just kidding.
I actually liked the Gettleman hire initially, and was happy when he tore up the shitty 2017 team. I also thought the Solder signing made sense when it happened...how'd I look on that one?
That's why.
What's really scary is there is more I can add to illustrate just how incompetent shurmur is but I'm out of time my dinner is ready.
What's the opposite of a fair-weather fan?
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I've used this example before, but colleges don't have a GM picking their recruits. The HCs pick the players he wants to develop and coach for his system. And the FBS is big, big business today - like the NFL.
A college coach can literally try and target any player to go after. And some schools have much better means of attracting players. A GM doesn't have the luxury of his choice of any player and he's constrained by a salary cap. It is a horrible example to cite.
Colleges are essentially capped with scholarship limitations at 85.
But the underlying point, the more important point, is that college coaches are picking their players to develop and fit into their system. Except for clearing it with admissions, they doesn't have to cede or share approval with another layer of management.
In the NFL, typically at least three levels have to agree on the acquisition of a player - coach, GM, owner. And if there is dispute, the owner can break a tie.
I'll never forgot the interview with Fassel during the '98 or '99 draft. He was being interviewed by ESPN and he looked like he just came back from a family funeral. Then stories leaked out that he and Ernie (maybe it was still GY) were battling over taking specific players. To me, that's just not the best approach. Let the coach succeed or fail with HIS players, not players he's not totally committed to...
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no correlation on how the college team is built to the NFL:
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I've used this example before, but colleges don't have a GM picking their recruits. The HCs pick the players he wants to develop and coach for his system. And the FBS is big, big business today - like the NFL.
A college coach can literally try and target any player to go after. And some schools have much better means of attracting players. A GM doesn't have the luxury of his choice of any player and he's constrained by a salary cap. It is a horrible example to cite.
Colleges are essentially capped with scholarship limitations at 85.
But the underlying point, the more important point, is that college coaches are picking their players to develop and fit into their system. Except for clearing it with admissions, they doesn't have to cede or share approval with another layer of management.
In the NFL, typically at least three levels have to agree on the acquisition of a player - coach, GM, owner. And if there is dispute, the owner can break a tie.
I'll never forgot the interview with Fassel during the '98 or '99 draft. He was being interviewed by ESPN and he looked like he just came back from a family funeral. Then stories leaked out that he and Ernie (maybe it was still GY) were battling over taking specific players. To me, that's just not the best approach. Let the coach succeed or fail with HIS players, not players he's not totally committed to...
The problem with your approach is coaches come and go and if you replace the current coach the next coach will change the roaster to their satisfaction. You can't keep turning over the roaster to suit the coaches but coaches should have a major say in personnel acquisition.
This was a rebuild starting in August 2018. As soon as they saw this team in July/August, they cut half the team. That was when they signaled the white flag.
Now, its certainly disputable whether the rebuild is taking shape or if we're stuck in mediocrity.
I've said this a few times here but i'll say it again. Follow the leaks. Ben McAdoo was JR's 3rd choice. Jerry Reese signed Rhett Ellison who Ben didn't even put on the field. Ben wanted a different QB, no one budged (sounds like JR was on board though)
Dave Gettleman has said his preference is a defensive minded coach, the Giants hire Pat Shurmur.
2 times in a row the Giants hire a WCO coach who calls his own plays, and not only that, had coordinators underneath them they didn't cede playcalling to. What does that tell you? Both coaches offensive schemes lacked innovation and their clock management was poor. Both seemed over their heads.
My million dollar question is this - how much say does the GM have in making decisions?
Tom Coughlin and Jerry Reese lacked cohesion in the latter half of TC's time here, Benny Mac and Jerry Reese lacked cohesion and Gettleman & Shurmur didn't work.
If they don't trust Dave Gettleman to hire the right coach, find a new GM. If they do, please let him make the decision entirely on his own (i'm not saying ownership shouldn't interview them, simply that he should let the GM have final say)
I'd be on board with Gettleman & Rivera, i like the idea of Ron because i believe he'll bring in a solid staff.
The Giants have been lacking COACHING and i'm tired of it. Bring in some winners.
This was a rebuild starting in August 2018.
No it wasn't.
Rebuilding teams do not draft RBs in the top 3, and have the GM declare the starting QB with a fork in his back "still has it" because of one game.
Both last and this seasons teams were sold as playoff caliber and massively failed to deliver...
It doesn't make sense to fire Shurmur and not Gettleman on any level. He hasn't done anything to deserve the benefit of the doubt and his free agent deals have been a disaster, last thing we should want is a guy that knows he needs to win next year spending a ton of money this off-season.
What did John Lynch do to earn a 3rd season?
If you know your Giants history that's how George Young became the GM in 1979.
Wherewithal was the wrong word. I'm not convinced Tisch has an awareness of what the problems are or how to fix them.
Ironically Gettleman has done many of the things they cried for — finding Eli’s replacement, getting rid of Odell, and tearing the whole team down.
The reality is Gettleman had to be perfect in FA and the draft to turn this around in year 2. There was nothing to build around when he got here.
He wasn’t perfect. He got the HC wrong in a weak class. He’s had a bunch of FA misses. But he’s had some really good drafts, cleaned up the cap, and found the QB of the future.
I’m pro DG at the moment but I’m reserving judgment until this off-season plays out. He has to get the HC right. He has to make the right moves in FA this year and he has to have another good draft. I expect him to be a man of his word and fix the trenches. This may sound like a big ask but the opportunity will be there this year to accomplish most if not all of these tasks.
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what has Gettleman done to earn a 3rd season? And having a GM who is year to year if the team doesnt perform is a disaster waiting to happen when you hire a new coach. If they keep Gettleman and he gets fired next year you either force the existing coach on a new GM which is an awful idea or you fire another coach after just 1 year, also a bad look.
It doesn't make sense to fire Shurmur and not Gettleman on any level. He hasn't done anything to deserve the benefit of the doubt and his free agent deals have been a disaster, last thing we should want is a guy that knows he needs to win next year spending a ton of money this off-season.
What did John Lynch do to earn a 3rd season?
The 49ers didn’t become 11-2 overnight. They would have been better than 4-12 last year if Garrapolo hadn’t gotten hurt and they didn’t have to start Mullen’s and Beathard.
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Try to persuade you about anything. They have a pre determined idea about what should be done. Their qualifications are zip, the specifics are few and far between and don’t make sense. The most logical thing we can hope for, is Tisch pushes for an overseer of all football operations, and the Maras step away from the vehicle.
Ironically Gettleman has done many of the things they cried for — finding Eli’s replacement, getting rid of Odell, and tearing the whole team down.
The reality is Gettleman had to be perfect in FA and the draft to turn this around in year 2. There was nothing to build around when he got here.
He wasn’t perfect. He got the HC wrong in a weak class. He’s had a bunch of FA misses. But he’s had some really good drafts, cleaned up the cap, and found the QB of the future.
I’m pro DG at the moment but I’m reserving judgment until this off-season plays out. He has to get the HC right. He has to make the right moves in FA this year and he has to have another good draft. I expect him to be a man of his word and fix the trenches. This may sound like a big ask but the opportunity will be there this year to accomplish most if not all of these tasks.
Nobody would be on Dave Gettleman right now if this team was on pace for 7 wins. The complaint is not that he failed to be perfect. The complaint is they are a dumpster fire with no evident growth from last year.
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In comment 14714927 MookGiants said:
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what has Gettleman done to earn a 3rd season? And having a GM who is year to year if the team doesnt perform is a disaster waiting to happen when you hire a new coach. If they keep Gettleman and he gets fired next year you either force the existing coach on a new GM which is an awful idea or you fire another coach after just 1 year, also a bad look.
It doesn't make sense to fire Shurmur and not Gettleman on any level. He hasn't done anything to deserve the benefit of the doubt and his free agent deals have been a disaster, last thing we should want is a guy that knows he needs to win next year spending a ton of money this off-season.
What did John Lynch do to earn a 3rd season?
The 49ers didn’t become 11-2 overnight. They would have been better than 4-12 last year if Garrapolo hadn’t gotten hurt and they didn’t have to start Mullen’s and Beathard.
The mantra is it’s all about W-L from GoTerps and his merry band of dick riders.
If Gettleman should be fired based on the team’s record during his tenure then Lynch should’ve been fired as well.
Another poster made an interesting post about all of the suspect moves Lynch has made during his tenure — and how he was under fire until the team started winning this year. BBI would explode if Gettleman did some of the shit Lynch has done.
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In comment 14715174 WillVAB said:
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In comment 14714927 MookGiants said:
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what has Gettleman done to earn a 3rd season? And having a GM who is year to year if the team doesnt perform is a disaster waiting to happen when you hire a new coach. If they keep Gettleman and he gets fired next year you either force the existing coach on a new GM which is an awful idea or you fire another coach after just 1 year, also a bad look.
It doesn't make sense to fire Shurmur and not Gettleman on any level. He hasn't done anything to deserve the benefit of the doubt and his free agent deals have been a disaster, last thing we should want is a guy that knows he needs to win next year spending a ton of money this off-season.
What did John Lynch do to earn a 3rd season?
The 49ers didn’t become 11-2 overnight. They would have been better than 4-12 last year if Garrapolo hadn’t gotten hurt and they didn’t have to start Mullen’s and Beathard.
The mantra is it’s all about W-L from GoTerps and his merry band of dick riders.
If Gettleman should be fired based on the team’s record during his tenure then Lynch should’ve been fired as well.
Another poster made an interesting post about all of the suspect moves Lynch has made during his tenure — and how he was under fire until the team started winning this year. BBI would explode if Gettleman did some of the shit Lynch has done.
Gettleman’s done enough damage here already for many here to explode.
We don't need to resort to hyperbole to prove this point.
Rivera will likely be one of the top coaching candidates, he won't be "desperate".