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Why Gettleman should not be fired (long post)

eric2425ny : 12/11/2019 11:18 pm
1.) He walked into a complete shit mess from Reese’s years of awful drafting and handing out massive contracts to unworthy players. This is at least a 3-4 year reclamation project (and we are just wrapping up year 2).

2.) He has had two drafts that at this stage look like the best we have had in several years. Barkley is a beast (the high ankle sprain ruined 2019), and Jones has shown flashes which from what I have seen are far brighter than anything Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold have displayed. Rosen looks like he is on his way out of the league. Drafting guys like Slayton, Connelly, etc. in late rounds. Reese and Ross couldn’t draft anyone decent past round 2.

3.) Trading OBJ and Vernon for what he got is amazing. OBJ hurt again, looking to leave Cleveland, and Vernon injured most of the year again as well.

4.) He amassed tons of picks, drafted a bunch of promising players and now we have a ton of cap room to play with which we haven’t had in years.

I understand the hate over some of his bad FA pickups like Stewart, Omameh, Solder, etc. But you have to field a team and sometimes you have to take a chance on older vets to give the semblance of trying to field a competitive ball club when your team is clearly not ready for prime time.

Give him one more year and let’s see how we do. I knew we were looking at a season of no more than 4-5 wins the minute they put a rookie QB in. If we don’t win at least 7-8 next year, then it’s time to consider a GM change.

As for Shurmur, I can’t stand head coaches who call plays. We’re competitive every week and can’t close. No issue with a coaching change.
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RE: RE: Agree with the OP  
BrettNYG10 : 12/12/2019 10:08 am : link
In comment 14715535 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
In comment 14715383 Tim in VA said:


Quote:


Best drafts in my lifetime under Gettleman.



This is a joke, right? Are you twelve years old? That's the only way that comment makes any sense. 2018, aside from Barkley (who ain't looking too good at the moment either), is pure shit. Lauletta was a total bust. So is McIntosh. Hill is so awesome that they traded two picks for the privilege of paying through the nose for Williams. Carter is useless. Hernandez has stunk this year.






Quote:


Everyone trying to kill him over Omemeh(sp) and Solder, not a single one of them disagreed with the move at the time.



Complete bullshit. Go back to the archives - there were plenty of people who weren't terribly happy about the Solder signing.


I'm fine with people calling the drafts 'promising' or saying it's too early to judge, but the assertion that DG had great drafts as facts is absolute delusion and fantasy.
...  
BrettNYG10 : 12/12/2019 10:09 am : link
DG also spent his first off-season making moves to compete immediately. If people thought the team was so close to the playoffs, why fire Reese to begin with?
RE: ...  
Britt in VA : 12/12/2019 10:14 am : link
In comment 14715630 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
DG also spent his first off-season making moves to compete immediately. If people thought the team was so close to the playoffs, why fire Reese to begin with?


Because Reese had already been given his second and third chances to get it stabilized.
RE: DG Should be Retained  
MM_in_NYC : 12/12/2019 10:16 am : link
In comment 14715489 Jeffrey said:
Quote:
He is a loyal member of the Giants family and was handpicked by the owners who always have the best interests of this club at heart.
He apparently is a victim of having been misled by Pat Shurmur as to his abilities as a coach.
His firing in Carolina was not a reflection of his job performance and can be blamed on a bad owner.
His high, high draft choice in 2018 and 2 of the 3 in in 2019 look to be keepers.
He is better than Reese.
He rebuilt the OL by spending alot of money to bring in all new names and though it did not pan out you have got to give him credit for getting rid of Flowers who we all hated.
He cannot be blamed for the bad free agent moves, or the missed draft choices because everyone misses some.
The LW trade was actually a brilliant move and it only cost a very high 3rd round draft choice and possibly a 4th, but then again looking at how those have been used by DG he probably did better than he would have in the draft.
He cleaned out the bad attitudes from the lockerroom so that we can lose with a nicer, happier group of guys.
He knows how to dance with the media when he talks to them and he has a "plan" for rebuilding the Giants--a very flexible plan that will not fail because it can be constantly adjusted to account for every move and every failed decision.
Keep him please.


Well done satire right there. Maybe Chris Mara should be GM if not DG? He's got the best genes.
RE: RE: RE: I really just think  
jcn56 : 12/12/2019 10:23 am : link
In comment 14715608 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14715598 jcn56 said:


Quote:


In comment 14715575 ryanmkeane said:


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people underestimate how bad Shurmur actually is. Cardinals, Lions, Eagles, Jets, Bears games...of those 5 games we would have at least 3 wins, maybe 4 with a decently good football coach. Shurmur really is that horrific.



I don't think anyone underestimates Shurmur - but it's hard to fault him entirely [/b]when there are so many rookies[/b] and so many holes on the roster. Kill Bettcher all you want, but he has exactly 1 guy who can rush the passer, no linebackers worth a damn, and a rookie secondary.

Assuming that defense would have some dramatic resurgence with another coach isn't reasonable. Could they have won 1 more of those games with better coaching? Probably. 3 or 4? Sure, if Belichick is willing to sign on.



Something that Dave Gettleman has had exactly one and a half seasons to fix. That's exactly why it's harder to blame Gettleman than Shurmur.

It's reasonable to believe all of those rookies will get better. It's reasonable to believe the holes will still get filled with another draft and a lot to spend in free agency.

What is also reasonable to believe is that in many of the games that we've been in this year, better coaching could have closed them out. Would we be 10-6? NO. But we could be a 6 or 7 win team perhaps with better coaching (which shockingly would have us still in contention this particular season, not that we should expect to do anything with it but it's something to build on). It looked like that was happening last year, and then it all regressed. I blame that on Shurmur. Going backwards with the same roster. That's exactly what soured me on McAdoo.


Gettleman willingly created those holes - on a team he inherited that was a season removed from 11 wins.

He doesn't get credit for the magnitude of the mess when he created a good deal of it.
He willingly created them by jettisoning guys that he felt were a bad  
Britt in VA : 12/12/2019 10:26 am : link
fit for whatever reason.

Keeping guys on that don't fit your vision for the future or culture of what you want your lockerroom to avoid creating holes is also a poor plan. One that ultimately cost Jerry Reese his job.
RE: RE: ...  
BrettNYG10 : 12/12/2019 10:29 am : link
In comment 14715637 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14715630 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


DG also spent his first off-season making moves to compete immediately. If people thought the team was so close to the playoffs, why fire Reese to begin with?



Because Reese had already been given his second and third chances to get it stabilized.


And then DG took this team that was apparently close to the playoffs and got 5 wins out of it.

My view is that Reese created a garbage roster and deserved to be fired, but DG thought he could turn it around in one off-season. It didn't happen, and then he took steps to blow it up and rebuild. But that initial misjudgment set us back.
He should stay at least one more year  
Manning10 : 12/12/2019 10:37 am : link
as others have stated Reese left a bag of shit to fix.
The current vision has resulted in 3, 5, and 2 win NFL seasons  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/12/2019 10:49 am : link
and two years in a row where the franchise has had one leg cut off by over 40 million dollars in dead, unusuable salary cap resource.
RE: The current vision has resulted in 3, 5, and 2 win NFL seasons  
ryanmkeane : 12/12/2019 10:51 am : link
In comment 14715726 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
and two years in a row where the franchise has had one leg cut off by over 40 million dollars in dead, unusuable salary cap resource.

Reese was the GM for the 3 win season.
RE: The current vision has resulted in 3, 5, and 2 win NFL seasons  
Britt in VA : 12/12/2019 10:56 am : link
In comment 14715726 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
and two years in a row where the franchise has had one leg cut off by over 40 million dollars in dead, unusuable salary cap resource.


Those are the results, not the long term vision/goal.
I think Brett's point is really getting glossed over  
jcn56 : 12/12/2019 11:07 am : link
the decision making is completely incongruent at that point; if you decide that Reese has earned dismissal, how do you then turn around and say 'with a few tweaks here and there these guys can win the division'?
RE: I think Brett's point is really getting glossed over  
Britt in VA : 12/12/2019 11:11 am : link
In comment 14715765 jcn56 said:
Quote:
the decision making is completely incongruent at that point; if you decide that Reese has earned dismissal, how do you then turn around and say 'with a few tweaks here and there these guys can win the division'?


They gave it the old college try.

He needed to evaluate what he had, and maybe the only way he could do that was to put it on the field.
What so you are saying mr. film with almost all  
NoGainDayne : 12/12/2019 11:32 am : link
of the same scouting and talent evaluation staff in place needed to be what in the Giants owners box to be able to evaluate the talent properly? Do you even think about the things you say before you type or just spew them out?

Is it possible DG had certain things pushed on him like Eli Manning? Or at least veiled pressure to keep him? Absolutely. But again that's the pervasive problem that people think need to be fixed by not having someone that's going to be manipulated or tacitly coerced by people that don't know how to succeed in today's NFL.

Building a team isn't tech support. You don't have to assume the people came before you didn't know the proper steps and like restart and plug and unplug things. You can see what has occurred and what you have before they take the field, in fact that's the job.

And frankly if DG didn't whiff so enormously bad in FA this might be a completely different conversation. Many here want to be like well how could he or anyone have known that would happen? When there were many calling out the hire and the signings from the get go.

The worst part? All the culture bluster. Solder was supposed to be a veteran leader but instead he is an embarrassment. Do you know what it does to a team to see someone paid that highly be so spectacularly poorly? Ditto for Ogletree, a guy that came into the NFL with character concerns that a contending team wanted to dump and we wanted to just eat up their table scraps for the right to pay and give up draft capital. That doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of our culture problems. You don't get to hire the "adult in the room" preach culture and oversee this disaster without a bunch of egg on your face.
No I don't think about them before I spew them out.  
Britt in VA : 12/12/2019 11:39 am : link
.
RE: Nah man  
V.I.G. : 12/12/2019 11:44 am : link
In comment 14715393 JerryNicklebag said:
Quote:
This whole regime was a bad decision from the beginning.

There was a reason they didn't choose DG to begin with. They should have remembered that.

This is the most under discussed point on DG. Back then Acorsi and Mara knew that DG was a good scout but did not project as well as an executive.

As an executive DG blew up in CAR, and has blown up here.
RE: RE: I think Brett's point is really getting glossed over  
bigbluehoya : 12/12/2019 11:45 am : link
In comment 14715771 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
In comment 14715765 jcn56 said:


Quote:


the decision making is completely incongruent at that point; if you decide that Reese has earned dismissal, how do you then turn around and say 'with a few tweaks here and there these guys can win the division'?



They gave it the old college try.

He needed to evaluate what he had, and maybe the only way he could do that was to put it on the field.


This could very well be where you and some others diverge from those who think he should be fired.

Many or most think the old college try isn't an acceptable approach.

If you have no idea what you actually have, and the best strategy you can muster is to just roll the dice and see what happens on the field, you best be saving every penny you can along the way.
RE: RE: RE: How does anyone know he wasted two years?  
V.I.G. : 12/12/2019 11:50 am : link
In comment 14715373 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:

You know what else makes it take longer than two years?

When you spend the first year in denial about being a team in need of a rebuild, so you sign free agents as though you're a playoff contender and draft a RB #2 overall, and then when that blows up in your face, you sell veterans at pennies on the dollar and spend your second year cleaning up your own self-imposed cap mess from your misevaluation of the roster the year before.


Succinct, spot on - bold emphasis mine
He gave it a try for 8 games, then cut his losses and started....  
Britt in VA : 12/12/2019 11:51 am : link
the rebuild.

I don't view this as the massive setback, misjudging the roster that you do.

I see it as exactly what it was. Giving it a go with the pieces you had, it failed, and then you cut bait. Sometimes it really is that simple.

Where we diverged, was that people thought up the conspiracy of go all in on Eli, and that drove some people on here completely mad. Conspiracy theories about being mandated that Gettleman build the roster completely around Eli to win now at all costs, yada, yada, yada.

I just viewed it as putting the pieces that he had, on the field with the pieces he accumulated and replaced, and giving a look at what would happen. I see it as just an evaluation. That simple.
Yeah, I'm thinking a billion dollar operation needs something  
jcn56 : 12/12/2019 11:53 am : link
more structured than the old college try.

'So, our latest earnings - tough market conditions, a few unforeseen changes that proved to be challenging, but hey, we gave it the old college try and we lost money, what can you do, right?'
RE: I know this is a difficult concept for some But  
V.I.G. : 12/12/2019 11:57 am : link
In comment 14715452 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
General Manager is a completely different job then Head Coach and should be evaluated separately

And here’s what we do know. The Head Coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NFL history by his record. We thought his Cleveland record was explainable and as it turns out - he has been worse then his time in Cleveland and everything that was happening in Cleveland is happening here and worse.

Fire Shurmur and his entire coaching staff and hire someone new at HC. Start there.

soooo if Shurmur was terrible in CLE...
yettt still won more games in CLE than NY...
thennn the difference would be roster talent differentials...
andddd DG should be fired just as quick as Holmgren was...
RE: Yeah, I'm thinking a billion dollar operation needs something  
bw in dc : 12/12/2019 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14715857 jcn56 said:
Quote:
more structured than the old college try.

'So, our latest earnings - tough market conditions, a few unforeseen changes that proved to be challenging, but hey, we gave it the old college try and we lost money, what can you do, right?'


LOL.

When my financial adviser tells me that I step back and applaud him for effort.
RE: He gave it a try for 8 games, then cut his losses and started....  
bigbluehoya : 12/12/2019 12:01 pm : link
In comment 14715853 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
the rebuild.

I don't view this as the massive setback, misjudging the roster that you do.

I see it as exactly what it was. Giving it a go with the pieces you had, it failed, and then you cut bait. Sometimes it really is that simple.

Where we diverged, was that people thought up the conspiracy of go all in on Eli, and that drove some people on here completely mad. Conspiracy theories about being mandated that Gettleman build the roster completely around Eli to win now at all costs, yada, yada, yada.

I just viewed it as putting the pieces that he had, on the field with the pieces he accumulated and replaced, and giving a look at what would happen. I see it as just an evaluation. That simple.


With no proof either way, how can you call it a conspiracy theory that Eli being the starting QB in 2018 was a condition set by ownership prior to the hiring of a GM? Poor attempt to make the people who disagree with you look crazy.

And frankly, it doesn't change the conversation that much in the context of this discussion -- if he made the decision him self, major whiff and utter failure. If the decision really belonged to ownership and DG just went along for the ride in order to get the gig and the paycheck, major whiff and utter failure.

I don't think he deserves another shot to get it right in either case.
RE: I remember liking the Gettleman hire. I still do.  
BillKo : 12/12/2019 12:43 pm : link
In comment 14715537 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't remember feeling much one way or the other about Shurmur. Probably excited that he just coached a really good offense in Minnesota, probably hopeful that he learned from his mistakes in Cleveland. He did not come through and now I want him fired.

Don't remember high fives.


Britt, I feel the same.

DG should get at least another year. But he needs to pick the right HC this time.

I too thought Shurmur would have evolved, and thinking the second time around would have served him well.

But then you look at his staff (the OL coacha nd Shula for example) and these guys are not even considered top flight assistants. I can't speak for Bettcher repute.

None of our guys are in line for promotions......or other teams saying "hey, look at this guy"..........

The next HC has to be able to prove his assistants are going to carry the load, because the HC can't do it alone.
RE: RE: I know this is a difficult concept for some But  
BillKo : 12/12/2019 12:50 pm : link
In comment 14715864 V.I.G. said:
Quote:
In comment 14715452 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


General Manager is a completely different job then Head Coach and should be evaluated separately

And here’s what we do know. The Head Coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NFL history by his record. We thought his Cleveland record was explainable and as it turns out - he has been worse then his time in Cleveland and everything that was happening in Cleveland is happening here and worse.

Fire Shurmur and his entire coaching staff and hire someone new at HC. Start there.


soooo if Shurmur was terrible in CLE...
yettt still won more games in CLE than NY...
thennn the difference would be roster talent differentials...
andddd DG should be fired just as quick as Holmgren was...


I think that's a poor evaluation.

Just because team A beats team B, and B beats C, then A should beat C.

Doesn't work that way IMO. Lots of factors.

Fact is, he's sucked in both spots. We don't have the best talent, but we shouldn't be 2-11. We should have won on Monday Night, for example.

RE: RE: I remember liking the Gettleman hire. I still do.  
jcn56 : 12/12/2019 12:55 pm : link
In comment 14715987 BillKo said:
Quote:
In comment 14715537 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I don't remember feeling much one way or the other about Shurmur. Probably excited that he just coached a really good offense in Minnesota, probably hopeful that he learned from his mistakes in Cleveland. He did not come through and now I want him fired.

Don't remember high fives.



Britt, I feel the same.

DG should get at least another year. But he needs to pick the right HC this time.

I too thought Shurmur would have evolved, and thinking the second time around would have served him well.

But then you look at his staff (the OL coacha nd Shula for example) and these guys are not even considered top flight assistants. I can't speak for Bettcher repute.

None of our guys are in line for promotions......or other teams saying "hey, look at this guy"..........

The next HC has to be able to prove his assistants are going to carry the load, because the HC can't do it alone.


It's kinda funny you picked Shula, seeing as Shurmur didn't get his choice of OC (he was blocked), and Gettleman had the relationship with Shurmur.

When you look at so many different decisions that have been made during his tenure that have been as far off as humanly possible, I can't understand how anyone can objectively look at the big picture and think 'this is a person who should remain employed'.

I almost feel like it's a good thing they didn't have to build the stadium recently, because the way they're going it would have collapsed on them.
RE: RE: RE: I remember liking the Gettleman hire. I still do.  
BillKo : 12/12/2019 1:23 pm : link
In comment 14716027 jcn56 said:
Quote:
In comment 14715987 BillKo said:


Quote:


In comment 14715537 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


I don't remember feeling much one way or the other about Shurmur. Probably excited that he just coached a really good offense in Minnesota, probably hopeful that he learned from his mistakes in Cleveland. He did not come through and now I want him fired.

Don't remember high fives.



Britt, I feel the same.

DG should get at least another year. But he needs to pick the right HC this time.

I too thought Shurmur would have evolved, and thinking the second time around would have served him well.

But then you look at his staff (the OL coacha nd Shula for example) and these guys are not even considered top flight assistants. I can't speak for Bettcher repute.

None of our guys are in line for promotions......or other teams saying "hey, look at this guy"..........

The next HC has to be able to prove his assistants are going to carry the load, because the HC can't do it alone.



It's kinda funny you picked Shula, seeing as Shurmur didn't get his choice of OC (he was blocked), and Gettleman had the relationship with Shurmur.

When you look at so many different decisions that have been made during his tenure that have been as far off as humanly possible, I can't understand how anyone can objectively look at the big picture and think 'this is a person who should remain employed'.

I almost feel like it's a good thing they didn't have to build the stadium recently, because the way they're going it would have collapsed on them.


I didn't realize that Shula was picked by DG, not Shurmur.

I am also surprised that Shurmur would agree to that.

If I am a GM, I let the HC pick his own guys.
RE: He gave it a try for 8 games, then cut his losses and started....  
Gatorade Dunk : 12/12/2019 1:33 pm : link
In comment 14715853 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
the rebuild.

I don't view this as the massive setback, misjudging the roster that you do.

I see it as exactly what it was. Giving it a go with the pieces you had, it failed, and then you cut bait. Sometimes it really is that simple.

Where we diverged, was that people thought up the conspiracy of go all in on Eli, and that drove some people on here completely mad. Conspiracy theories about being mandated that Gettleman build the roster completely around Eli to win now at all costs, yada, yada, yada.

I just viewed it as putting the pieces that he had, on the field with the pieces he accumulated and replaced, and giving a look at what would happen. I see it as just an evaluation. That simple.

Britt, he wasted the entire 2018 offseason operating with a misevaluation of the roster and then spent the 2019 offseason cleaning up a mess that was largely created by his signings in 2018 that were not congruent with a rebuild. How can you say it wasn't that big of a deal? He wasted the better part of two offseasons that could have been used more productively with a teardown in 2018 and this past offseason laying the groundwork for his foundation without having to carry the most dead money in the NFL. We would almost certainly be significantly farther along in the rebuild, assuming you continue to believe in DG's talent evaluation.

Just because he cut bait after 8 games doesn't mean that only half a season was wasted; the entire offseason is what was wasted, which essentially means he wasted a full year even if he turned around and got a head start on 2019 halfway into the 2018 season.
RE: RE: RE: I know this is a difficult concept for some But  
V.I.G. : 12/12/2019 3:39 pm : link
In comment 14716010 BillKo said:
Quote:

I think that's a poor evaluation.

Just because team A beats team B, and B beats C, then A should beat C.

Doesn't work that way IMO. Lots of factors.

Fact is, he's sucked in both spots. We don't have the best talent, but we shouldn't be 2-11. We should have won on Monday Night, for example.

He's sucked in both spots, true - as have both the GMs. You believe another coach would have won Mon night - I think that Solder and Ogletree - DG's two most expensive additions - were the reason we lost.
Even if you believe the GM should get another year  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/12/2019 3:52 pm : link
how exactly is that going to happen? A head coach isn't going to sign a two-year contract. Dave is going to hire a head coach for 4-5 years. And if it doesn't work, fire the GM and bring in a new GM, but he has to work with the head coach that's in place?

So, the same weird dance we've been doing for years?
RE: RE: How does anyone know he (DG) wasted two years?  
Jimmy Googs : 12/12/2019 4:10 pm : link
In comment 14715437 Walker Gillette said:
Quote:
In comment 14715399 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


If you really have to ask that question then responding to you is only a further waste of time...



What are you going to say if team is 8-8 next year and young players play well and are the clear reason for the improvement?


I would say Gettleman’s replacement did a really good job in his first year...
RE: RE: How does anyone know he wasted two years?  
micky : 12/12/2019 4:11 pm : link
In comment 14715288 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 14715284 Walker Gillette said:


Quote:


If the 2018 & 2019 drafts turn out well than how were the years wasted? People freak out over Omaneh and Stewart, they were low to mid dollar signings that didn't work, all teams have these. Solder was an above average player when he was signed and played a position of great need.

The Giants were starting from a very low point with very little talent, could things have worked out better, sure, but there wasn't going to be any Super Bowl trips in those years. You can't keep switching GMs and plans every two years because you can't truly judge what they've done. Saying he screwed up by singing a backup RB who was supposed to be a steady hand in the locker room isn't enough of a reason to completely switch gears again.



Thank you, well said. Anyone expecting this team to be competitive at this point is delusional. When you overhaul a roster the way the Giants are right now, especially a youth based overhaul, it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to turn things around. Things will get better.


True. Hopefully in year 20 we'll start to compete and start winning 8-9 games. Have to be patient and stay the course. Getts is doing a hell of a job. Best it's been by gm here in years.
RE: It we didn’t sign Solder...  
Jimmy Googs : 12/12/2019 4:11 pm : link
In comment 14715546 Aspiring Slacker said:
Quote:
...the same people complaining we signed him now, would be complaining how we didn’t sign him and how we ignored the offensive line.


You’re a visionary
RE: maybe next year can be the Barkley Revenge Tour!  
micky : 12/12/2019 4:12 pm : link
In comment 14715542 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
And you guys can all make playoff predictions again, and come up with fresh new excuses when the team sucks ass again next year with Mr Magoo's new coach.


I love Groundhog Day.
RE: Even if you believe the GM should get another year  
BillKo : 12/12/2019 4:51 pm : link
In comment 14716440 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
how exactly is that going to happen? A head coach isn't going to sign a two-year contract. Dave is going to hire a head coach for 4-5 years. And if it doesn't work, fire the GM and bring in a new GM, but he has to work with the head coach that's in place?

So, the same weird dance we've been doing for years?


We really haven't been doing that dance for years, Jerry Reese was the GM for 10 years. Yes, he started to lose support near the end due to drafting, but he was entrenched.

But to your point, I guess the question is, what do GM's on the hot seat do? Do they have to ride it out w/ their current coach, so if there's failure they both get canned?

And I guess the other question is, if you hire a really good coach - and you feel that the GM is not the answer - does the new GM always have to pick his own guy? What if he likes the current coach? Maybe the coach takes on a bigger role in personnel. Maybe a GM is hired that has connections to the coach.



RE: Manning can still play, you'll never convince me otherwise.  
Jim in Forest Hills : 12/12/2019 4:54 pm : link
In comment 14715547 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I was wrong that the team was good enough to get it together so quickly after 2017. You can shove it in my face over, and over, and over again. It doesn't bother me.

I WAS WRONG.

I've said that before, and I'll say it again. Something that I imagine some of you have never said on this board and never will.

I still believe Gettleman is on the right track, and I do believe an experienced NFL Head Coach can pull more, much more, out of this roster assembled now, and what we add in the offseason.


I don't think anyone cares that you were wrong. In fact kudos to you for discerning what the Giants would do. What ails us is that DG thought the same as you did. That the official GM of the Giants hugely miscalculated the pulse of the team should be a huge concern to all of us. And part of the reason he shouldn't be gm anymore.
RE: Uh...  
joeinpa : 12/12/2019 5:45 pm : link
In comment 14715341 bw in dc said:
Quote:
LW is going to either get a minimum of $17M under a franchise tag or at least $72M/4 years via the open market.

All for a player who is averaging 3.5 sacks/yr over his 5 years in the NFL. And he hasn’t had a sack in over a year.

Thank the football gods for allowing us to trade a 3rd and a 5th to get “control” over such a great player.


You come across as a pretty involved and knowledgeable fan. I m surprised you would judge Williams by his sack totals.

The guy constantly pushes the pocket recording many pressures. He is a solid run stopper and makes the edge rushers betters. One of Ximnes sacks last Monday was the direct result of Williams.

I laid the trade and hope they resign him. He is the best player in the defense right now
RE: He gave it a try for 8 games, then cut his losses and started....  
Jimmy Googs : 12/12/2019 6:30 pm : link
In comment 14715853 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
the rebuild.

I don't view this as the massive setback, misjudging the roster that you do.

I see it as exactly what it was. Giving it a go with the pieces you had, it failed, and then you cut bait. Sometimes it really is that simple.

Where we diverged, was that people thought up the conspiracy of go all in on Eli, and that drove some people on here completely mad. Conspiracy theories about being mandated that Gettleman build the roster completely around Eli to win now at all costs, yada, yada, yada.

I just viewed it as putting the pieces that he had, on the field with the pieces he accumulated and replaced, and giving a look at what would happen. I see it as just an evaluation. That simple.


Well gee, isn’t that special. He gave it a go!

And missed by a mile for two seasons in a row.

A mile...

RE: RE: He gave it a try for 8 games, then cut his losses and started....  
.McL. : 12/12/2019 6:32 pm : link
In comment 14716584 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
In comment 14715853 Britt in VA said:


Quote:


the rebuild.

I don't view this as the massive setback, misjudging the roster that you do.

I see it as exactly what it was. Giving it a go with the pieces you had, it failed, and then you cut bait. Sometimes it really is that simple.

Where we diverged, was that people thought up the conspiracy of go all in on Eli, and that drove some people on here completely mad. Conspiracy theories about being mandated that Gettleman build the roster completely around Eli to win now at all costs, yada, yada, yada.

I just viewed it as putting the pieces that he had, on the field with the pieces he accumulated and replaced, and giving a look at what would happen. I see it as just an evaluation. That simple.



Well gee, isn’t that special. He gave it a go!

And missed by a mile for two seasons in a row.

A mile...

Nice, you rhymed...

BTW, I thought you said the DG apologists had gone silent... They seem to be out in great numbers lately.
I guess the DG apologists are back  
Jimmy Googs : 12/12/2019 6:48 pm : link
looking to go on the attack...
All this 'who is exiting '  
idiotsavant : 12/12/2019 6:51 pm : link
'Who isn't exiting' talk.

You'd think it was the BBC not BBI.
.😉  
idiotsavant : 12/12/2019 6:59 pm : link
.
RE: RE: One thing I’d add  
Racer : 12/12/2019 7:20 pm : link
In comment 14715346 allstarjim said:
Quote:
I don't agree with this. I think all the "win with Eli" stuff was just the stuff you have to say to keep the fans interested and buying tickets

Quote:

After 30 years or so of paying attention to Giants' football, you learn to see through that bullshit. I really hope they weren't believing their own bullshit, anyway, because I didn't.


+1000 Great post.

-Selling hope is a huge, huge priority for this group in this market, with their fluff-filled town halls at the Beacon, etc.

-It certainly *is* bullshit if you can't back it up, and they surely have not.
I think Gettleman will remain in place...  
EricJ : 12/12/2019 7:30 pm : link
and partially due to his health issues. Despite Mara's shortcomings as a leader of an NFL team, he is a good man at heart and likely would not want to fire a guy who is still going through his health situation.

This is not a good reason for me to keep him because the Giants can still pay for his medical expenses even after firing him
RE: RE: Uh...  
bw in dc : 12/12/2019 7:53 pm : link
In comment 14716550 joeinpa said:
Quote:

You come across as a pretty involved and knowledgeable fan. I m surprised you would judge Williams by his sack totals.

The guy constantly pushes the pocket recording many pressures. He is a solid run stopper and makes the edge rushers betters. One of Ximnes sacks last Monday was the direct result of Williams.

I laid the trade and hope they resign him. He is the best player in the defense right now


I don't think paying high dollars for DT is a wise investment. The DT market is usually fairly robust in both the college and pro ranks. So why overpay for a position that has become mostly commoditized? Unless you have an Aaron Donald type - prolific in the run and pass...And I don't think any reasonable person is confusing LW's skills with Donald.

Unfortunately, there are buyers in the NFL willing to invest big cap dollars in DTs that aren't in the same stratosphere as Donald. I'm afraid we're about to be one of those buyers and make the same mistake with LW. A player who is good, but not great or really consistent.

And the current market value is steep - at least $68M/4 yrs. Do you think that paying a player who has never had one great/good+ year is worth those cap dollars?

RE: RE: RE: Uh...  
WillVAB : 12/12/2019 8:20 pm : link
In comment 14716651 bw in dc said:
Quote:
In comment 14716550 joeinpa said:


Quote:



You come across as a pretty involved and knowledgeable fan. I m surprised you would judge Williams by his sack totals.

The guy constantly pushes the pocket recording many pressures. He is a solid run stopper and makes the edge rushers betters. One of Ximnes sacks last Monday was the direct result of Williams.

I laid the trade and hope they resign him. He is the best player in the defense right now



I don't think paying high dollars for DT is a wise investment. The DT market is usually fairly robust in both the college and pro ranks. So why overpay for a position that has become mostly commoditized? Unless you have an Aaron Donald type - prolific in the run and pass...And I don't think any reasonable person is confusing LW's skills with Donald.

Unfortunately, there are buyers in the NFL willing to invest big cap dollars in DTs that aren't in the same stratosphere as Donald. I'm afraid we're about to be one of those buyers and make the same mistake with LW. A player who is good, but not great or really consistent.

And the current market value is steep - at least $68M/4 yrs. Do you think that paying a player who has never had one great/good+ year is worth those cap dollars?


You undervalue Williams. The top teams in the league are super run heavy and there will be copy cats. That’s how the cycle typically goes.

When the cycle was super pass heavy the league responded by loading up on pass rushers and corners. Rushing the passer will always be important but I think there’s more value now stopping the run than you realize.

Williams best days are ahead of him. Armstead/Thomas were considered underachievers in SF until this year. Same knock — good vs the run but underwhelming vs the pass. That is until they added dynamic edge players who ultimately allowed the entire DL to bloom.
It remains to be seen if this run defense is for real anyway  
Ten Ton Hammer : 12/12/2019 9:52 pm : link
No team the giants have played this year has actually had to run the football to beat them because the pass defense has been a joke.

Tell me you have a feeling this run defense could hold up if they had to play the Ravens. I doubt anyone would take that bet.
RE: ...  
djm : 12/12/2019 11:19 pm : link
In comment 14715630 BrettNYG10 said:
Quote:
DG also spent his first off-season making moves to compete immediately. If people thought the team was so close to the playoffs, why fire Reese to begin with?


This has been a popular line from fans also that the giants and dg saying they felt the team could win or compete. The latter is true but isn’t a big deal in my view as every GM and HC will say this. It’s lip service. As for the claim that the giants made all these win now moves in 2018 I think that’s flat out false. They made one big move, solder and we were so desperate for OL help anyway. Other than that, I wouldn’t say the giants went on any sort of spending spree not by any stretch. How can we condemn the giants for going all in when the facts show this team is virtually young and cheap across the board? Isn’t that what really matters?
RE: RE: ...  
christian : 12/12/2019 11:23 pm : link
In comment 14716846 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14715630 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


DG also spent his first off-season making moves to compete immediately. If people thought the team was so close to the playoffs, why fire Reese to begin with?



This has been a popular line from fans also that the giants and dg saying they felt the team could win or compete. The latter is true but isn’t a big deal in my view as every GM and HC will say this. It’s lip service. As for the claim that the giants made all these win now moves in 2018 I think that’s flat out false. They made one big move, solder and we were so desperate for OL help anyway. Other than that, I wouldn’t say the giants went on any sort of spending spree not by any stretch. How can we condemn the giants for going all in when the facts show this team is virtually young and cheap across the board? Isn’t that what really matters?


You might want to re-educate yourself on the number moves, the amount of future guaranteed money, and dead money Gettleman transacted in 2018. The facts do not align with the assertion Solder was the only big move.
RE: RE: ...  
ron mexico : 12/13/2019 9:15 am : link
In comment 14716846 djm said:
Quote:
In comment 14715630 BrettNYG10 said:


Quote:


DG also spent his first off-season making moves to compete immediately. If people thought the team was so close to the playoffs, why fire Reese to begin with?



This has been a popular line from fans also that the giants and dg saying they felt the team could win or compete. The latter is true but isn’t a big deal in my view as every GM and HC will say this. It’s lip service. As for the claim that the giants made all these win now moves in 2018 I think that’s flat out false. They made one big move, solder and we were so desperate for OL help anyway. Other than that, I wouldn’t say the giants went on any sort of spending spree not by any stretch. How can we condemn the giants for going all in when the facts show this team is virtually young and cheap across the board? Isn’t that what really matters?


They made OBJ the highest paid WR in the league
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