1.) He walked into a complete shit mess from Reese’s years of awful drafting and handing out massive contracts to unworthy players. This is at least a 3-4 year reclamation project (and we are just wrapping up year 2).
2.) He has had two drafts that at this stage look like the best we have had in several years. Barkley is a beast (the high ankle sprain ruined 2019), and Jones has shown flashes which from what I have seen are far brighter than anything Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold have displayed. Rosen looks like he is on his way out of the league. Drafting guys like Slayton, Connelly, etc. in late rounds. Reese and Ross couldn’t draft anyone decent past round 2.
3.) Trading OBJ and Vernon for what he got is amazing. OBJ hurt again, looking to leave Cleveland, and Vernon injured most of the year again as well.
4.) He amassed tons of picks, drafted a bunch of promising players and now we have a ton of cap room to play with which we haven’t had in years.
I understand the hate over some of his bad FA pickups like Stewart, Omameh, Solder, etc. But you have to field a team and sometimes you have to take a chance on older vets to give the semblance of trying to field a competitive ball club when your team is clearly not ready for prime time.
Give him one more year and let’s see how we do. I knew we were looking at a season of no more than 4-5 wins the minute they put a rookie QB in. If we don’t win at least 7-8 next year, then it’s time to consider a GM change.
As for Shurmur, I can’t stand head coaches who call plays. We’re competitive every week and can’t close. No issue with a coaching change.
Home
Washington Redskins
Arizona Cardinals
San Francisco 49ers
Cleveland Browns
Pittsburgh Steelers
NFC South* (Falcons or Panthers)
Dallas Cowboys
Philadelphia Eagles
Away
Washington Redskins
Seattle Seahawks
Philadelphia Eagles
NFC North* (Lions)
Los Angeles Rams
Cincinnati Bengals
Dallas Cowboys
Baltimore Ravens
We delude ourselves into calling it improvement.
Quote:
Gettleman stays on?
We delude ourselves into calling it improvement.
Depending on how the team looks on the field I would call that improvement. Especially with a 2nd year QB at the helm. Remember when at least half the fans were ready to run Eli out of town in his second and third year for that matter.
The Giants were starting from a very low point with very little talent, could things have worked out better, sure, but there wasn't going to be any Super Bowl trips in those years. You can't keep switching GMs and plans every two years because you can't truly judge what they've done. Saying he screwed up by singing a backup RB who was supposed to be a steady hand in the locker room isn't enough of a reason to completely switch gears again.
The Giants were starting from a very low point with very little talent, could things have worked out better, sure, but there wasn't going to be any Super Bowl trips in those years. You can't keep switching GMs and plans every two years because you can't truly judge what they've done. Saying he screwed up by singing a backup RB who was supposed to be a steady hand in the locker room isn't enough of a reason to completely switch gears again.
Thank you, well said. Anyone expecting this team to be competitive at this point is delusional. When you overhaul a roster the way the Giants are right now, especially a youth based overhaul, it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to turn things around. Things will get better.
I have seen Giants teams look way worse in recent years. This week was another example of us having the lead and blowing it in the second half.
Quote:
Gettleman stays on?
We delude ourselves into calling it improvement.
If the young players especially Jones are a main reason for that and it seems like the OL and or the D is making strides how could you not call that improvement?
Quote:
We have the 4th worst point differential in football and have 2 wins. Can't make this shit up.
I have seen Giants teams look way worse in recent years. This week was another example of us having the lead and blowing it in the second half.
Another example? I’m pretty sure last week was the only game this year where we lost a lead.
Home
Washington Redskins
Arizona Cardinals
San Francisco 49ers
Cleveland Browns
Pittsburgh Steelers
NFC South* (Falcons or Panthers)
Dallas Cowboys
Philadelphia Eagles
Away
Washington Redskins
Seattle Seahawks
Philadelphia Eagles
NFC North* (Lions)
Los Angeles Rams
Cincinnati Bengals
Dallas Cowboys
Baltimore Ravens
With the right series of decisions a team can turn things around pretty quickly in this league. I really believe we have a FEW good pieces (including our QB, which is important) and that's why I'm against blowing the whole thing up entirely. But the right new coaching staff would be needed for sure, a solid 2020 draft, and smart/savvy use of the relatively large amount of cap space we are about to have.
With all those things I would say: the Redskins (twice), Cardinals, Browns, Falcons/Panthers, Lions, and Bengals are all beatable. The Cowboys and Eagles both suck (we almost just beat the Eagles) and even just achieving mediocrity by next year we could split with both of them. That right there is 9 wins. Of course I assume in reality, if we WERE to go 9-7, it would likely include us losing to a couple of those lesser teams, and we'd have to steal a couple from the better teams- maybe the Steelers and Rams).
The only problem is: John Mara will be the head of the snake making these decisions I just mentioned and that is one dumb ass snake. A first-class organization could get this team to 8-8 or 9-7(and by first-class I mean quality-wise, not as in "classy" as so many posters like to brag about the Giants org. being). The problem is this is not a first-class organization anymore, and John Mara and Steve Tisch are the reasons for that and they are not leaving any time soon.
Quote:
In comment 14715287 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
We have the 4th worst point differential in football and have 2 wins. Can't make this shit up.
I have seen Giants teams look way worse in recent years. This week was another example of us having the lead and blowing it in the second half.
Another example? I’m pretty sure last week was the only game this year where we lost a lead.
Sorry, I should say “being in the game”, not necessarily having the lead. Point is it’s not like we have been getting blown out every week, especially after the first three quarters of the game. This team seems to fall flat on its face in the fourth quarter which is an indictment on 1.) youth and 2.) coaching.
Quote:
In comment 14715290 eric2425ny said:
Quote:
In comment 14715287 Mike from SI said:
Quote:
We have the 4th worst point differential in football and have 2 wins. Can't make this shit up.
I have seen Giants teams look way worse in recent years. This week was another example of us having the lead and blowing it in the second half.
Another example? I’m pretty sure last week was the only game this year where we lost a lead.
Sorry, I should say “being in the game”, not necessarily having the lead. Point is it’s not like we have been getting blown out every week, especially after the first three quarters of the game. This team seems to fall flat on its face in the fourth quarter which is an indictment on 1.) youth and 2.) coaching.
I'd say not getting blown out every single week (i.e. being "in the game" for the first half or 3 quarters) is a pretty low standard for a professional football team. This is supposed to be the league of parity, and you can lose every game by just 1 or 2 touchdowns and even if it feels like you're "close", you're really not. Like Parcells would say: you are what you're record says you are, and we're 2-11 right now.
The comparison I would make is that I have been a Vanderbilt football fan for the last 10 years, and they are the joke of the SEC. But over the years I've seen so many games where they are playing a top 10 ranked Alabama or LSU team and they are literally right in the game (and sometimes even leading) after the first half. It will feel like we're so "close" to these other teams, but the fact is we are not, and by the 4th quarter it becomes very clear that the first part of the game was a mirage. The opposing team may have just come out tight or possibly didn't take us seriously, and then as soon as they wake up they blow the hinges off our team. Simply appearing to be "competitive" for part of a game is not enough to measure where you are as a football team. Carl Banks said it best: "it's like they're always just a few plays away... from being a few plays away."
I know this post sounds contrary to the post I just made, but in reality I do also believe that things can turn around very quickly in this league. Just because we have a long way to go at this time from being a championship-caliber team, I don't think in today's NFL anyone should ever be "...4 years away" from being good" (as your post mentioned). 4 years? By that time the rookie contracts you first drafted are expiring and you're going to end up in a cycle of crappiness. We've seen it from plenty of teams around the league: a bottom-rung team can go from competitive in year 1 of rebuild, to playoffs in year 2, to super bowl contenders in year 3. It's very possible, it just takes the right brains in the room.
I actually do, overall, like Gettleman's drafts. Last year, Saquon at #2 was the right pick. Others would've taken a QB, and he waited with Eli having 2 seasons in front of him under contract.
Will Hernandez I was shouting from the rooftop. My ideal scenario was Saquon-Hernandez first and second round, and was over the moon when it happened.
BJ Hill was a solid pick later, and Lo Carter was a fine pick I suppose although there were other players I liked more, like Fred Warner of BYU who has turned into a fine linebacker for the 49ers.
What I take issue with is it seems for the good decisions he makes, there are real headscratchers. You could've gotten a real competitor with your 4th rounder, and they used it on Kyle Lauletta. It just wasn't necessary. And if you pick Lauletta to be a development QB, and you make that draft investment, and a year later he's not on the team.
Let's move on to the 2019 draft. I would not have taken Jones at #6. I thought he was an early 2nd round talent. I would've taken Josh Allen. I wasn't really in love with these QBs this year. I probably would've used a 3rd on Ryan Finley, so what do I know (and he would've been there). Gettleman took Ximines with that pick, which is fine. I liked the Lawrence pick at 17. But then the trade up for Baker, it was so nonsensical to me. They only moved up 7 spots. 7 spots for a position group that still had several great prospects still on the board. Mainly Byron Murphy and Rock Ya-Sin. To be fair, both of THOSE players were gone before the 37th pick, but I thought that with the extra picks the Giants had, he could've moved up for an extra 2nd before the big talent drop-off, rather than give up so much just to get this particular DB.
That said, I'm still bullish on all three of his first rounders, and you have to like the later picks like Love, Connelly, Slayton, and Ballentine. I still would've just waited on the franchise QB until next year, or this upcoming draft, where Burrow, Herbert, Fromm, Tua...all these guys with talent are coming out. But I really won't go after DG for that draft to hard.
Now, free agency...I didn't get the Golden Tate signing. And while he's played well, I still don't get it. He's older, he's not a lot different than Shepard in that they are slot guys.
Going back to 2018, I think his free agency period was a disaster. And not because of Solder, who I thought he had no choice to sign. The Giants had Ereck Flowers or Chad Wheeler as your LTs for 2018. So if you're DG, what do you do? Solder was a good LT that hit the market, really the only credible LT solution on the market, and you had to overpay to get him. No problem with the Solder signing. I don't even have a problem with the Omameh signing. If there's a logical reason to do it, do it. If you can justify it, go for it. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. But the Jonathan Stewart signing was completely absurd. A three year deal for Kareem Martin. I know it was only $15 million, but why? The Stewart signing was nuts.
And you jettisoned some guys early that actually were decent projects, like Chad Wheeler. Wheeler was young, and he actually has LT feet. Kennard, B.J. Goodson, Richburg. We can argue if it made sense to keep these guys, or how good they really were, but in some of their cases, they could've easily been retained for not much money, and you're spending $6.8 mil on Jonathan Stewart. Any UDFA RB would've been fine. Boston Scott looked pretty good the other night.
Then came the Leonard Williams trade. At first, I was praising DG...expecting in the next few days after the trade an extension would be formally announced. Then, I thought, maybe it'll take a week to iron out the finishing touches. Now, I realize DG doesn't have any inside track on LW. We could've just paid him the top dollar he's going to get from somebody in free agency after this season, and still had a 3rd rounder, which would've been a top 70 overall pick, in the 2020 draft, and we lose a what, 4th or 5th round pick in 2021 on top of it? Just to watch someone outbid us for LW? Or even if we keep him...why not just sign him in free agency. Does anybody think, at this point, Leonard Williams isn't going to hit free agency at the first opportunity? I guess DG is going to franchise tag him. But still, a pending free agent, there's no extension worked out, and you traded premium draft capital...a top 70 pick plus.
For a rebuilding team like the Giants, top 100 picks are the lifeblood of your rebuild.
I don't think DG has managed resources well. I think he's made some very good draft picks, but at this point I don't know what type of team DG thinks he has. He can't keep mismanaging these resources and situations like he has.
This offseason, with what should be the #2 pick, DG should be looking to get a haul in a trade down. The team needs far too much talent that one player like Chase Young can provide. But I could see DG even trading up a spot to still take Young. As nuts as it sounds.
I actually do, overall, like Gettleman's drafts. Last year, Saquon at #2 was the right pick. Others would've taken a QB, and he waited with Eli having 2 seasons in front of him under contract.
Will Hernandez I was shouting from the rooftop. My ideal scenario was Saquon-Hernandez first and second round, and was over the moon when it happened.
BJ Hill was a solid pick later, and Lo Carter was a fine pick I suppose although there were other players I liked more, like Fred Warner of BYU who has turned into a fine linebacker for the 49ers.
What I take issue with is it seems for the good decisions he makes, there are real headscratchers. You could've gotten a real competitor with your 4th rounder, and they used it on Kyle Lauletta. It just wasn't necessary. And if you pick Lauletta to be a development QB, and you make that draft investment, and a year later he's not on the team.
Let's move on to the 2019 draft. I would not have taken Jones at #6. I thought he was an early 2nd round talent. I would've taken Josh Allen. I wasn't really in love with these QBs this year. I probably would've used a 3rd on Ryan Finley, so what do I know (and he would've been there). Gettleman took Ximines with that pick, which is fine. I liked the Lawrence pick at 17. But then the trade up for Baker, it was so nonsensical to me. They only moved up 7 spots. 7 spots for a position group that still had several great prospects still on the board. Mainly Byron Murphy and Rock Ya-Sin. To be fair, both of THOSE players were gone before the 37th pick, but I thought that with the extra picks the Giants had, he could've moved up for an extra 2nd before the big talent drop-off, rather than give up so much just to get this particular DB.
That said, I'm still bullish on all three of his first rounders, and you have to like the later picks like Love, Connelly, Slayton, and Ballentine. I still would've just waited on the franchise QB until next year, or this upcoming draft, where Burrow, Herbert, Fromm, Tua...all these guys with talent are coming out. But I really won't go after DG for that draft to hard.
Now, free agency...I didn't get the Golden Tate signing. And while he's played well, I still don't get it. He's older, he's not a lot different than Shepard in that they are slot guys.
Going back to 2018, I think his free agency period was a disaster. And not because of Solder, who I thought he had no choice to sign. The Giants had Ereck Flowers or Chad Wheeler as your LTs for 2018. So if you're DG, what do you do? Solder was a good LT that hit the market, really the only credible LT solution on the market, and you had to overpay to get him. No problem with the Solder signing. I don't even have a problem with the Omameh signing. If there's a logical reason to do it, do it. If you can justify it, go for it. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. But the Jonathan Stewart signing was completely absurd. A three year deal for Kareem Martin. I know it was only $15 million, but why? The Stewart signing was nuts.
And you jettisoned some guys early that actually were decent projects, like Chad Wheeler. Wheeler was young, and he actually has LT feet. Kennard, B.J. Goodson, Richburg. We can argue if it made sense to keep these guys, or how good they really were, but in some of their cases, they could've easily been retained for not much money, and you're spending $6.8 mil on Jonathan Stewart. Any UDFA RB would've been fine. Boston Scott looked pretty good the other night.
Then came the Leonard Williams trade. At first, I was praising DG...expecting in the next few days after the trade an extension would be formally announced. Then, I thought, maybe it'll take a week to iron out the finishing touches. Now, I realize DG doesn't have any inside track on LW. We could've just paid him the top dollar he's going to get from somebody in free agency after this season, and still had a 3rd rounder, which would've been a top 70 overall pick, in the 2020 draft, and we lose a what, 4th or 5th round pick in 2021 on top of it? Just to watch someone outbid us for LW? Or even if we keep him...why not just sign him in free agency. Does anybody think, at this point, Leonard Williams isn't going to hit free agency at the first opportunity? I guess DG is going to franchise tag him. But still, a pending free agent, there's no extension worked out, and you traded premium draft capital...a top 70 pick plus.
For a rebuilding team like the Giants, top 100 picks are the lifeblood of your rebuild.
I don't think DG has managed resources well. I think he's made some very good draft picks, but at this point I don't know what type of team DG thinks he has. He can't keep mismanaging these resources and situations like he has.
This offseason, with what should be the #2 pick, DG should be looking to get a haul in a trade down. The team needs far too much talent that one player like Chase Young can provide. But I could see DG even trading up a spot to still take Young. As nuts as it sounds.
Good post, while I think Gettleman deserves another year I agree that some of his non draft moves have been rough. The Williams trade being the oddest as it seems like we traded away picks for no reason.
This year was get a new QB to groom while working on plan A for Eli. When we went 0-2 and it was clear playoffs were not in the picture most likely, then they turned to the future.
You could also argue he’s made 1 big error, getting Shurmur. And with better coaching we’d see more from the guys he brought in. But that’s speculation and doesn’t alleviate the responsibility on bringing in Pat.
2. The “why trade picks instead of signing him in the off -season” is one of the oddest takes here:
a. He was being shopped to other teams, which means they control him in the off-season.
b. The same people saying the Giants have “average” cap space are the same ones saying they shouldn’t have traded. If they have “average” space, wouldn’t it make sense to control his rights so he can’t just shop himself to the highest bidder?
3. The 49ers made the same play for Dee Ford. The Seahawks did it with Clowney. This is becoming the new norm to get the inside track on the guys you want.
4. He’s a good player with the potential to really thrive in a good scheme with the right complimentary pieces. He’s good vs the run. He’s disruptive vs the pass. He creates opportunities for those around him to make plays. He will be a core player on a defensive front that’s starting to come together and really only needs a little splash off the edge.
I only see the trade being bad if they don’t re-sign him.
All for a player who is averaging 3.5 sacks/yr over his 5 years in the NFL. And he hasn’t had a sack in over a year.
Thank the football gods for allowing us to trade a 3rd and a 5th to get “control” over such a great player.
This year was get a new QB to groom while working on plan A for Eli. When we went 0-2 and it was clear playoffs were not in the picture most likely, then they turned to the future.
You could also argue he’s made 1 big error, getting Shurmur. And with better coaching we’d see more from the guys he brought in. But that’s speculation and doesn’t alleviate the responsibility on bringing in Pat.
I don't agree with this. I think all the "win with Eli" stuff was just the stuff you have to say to keep the fans interested and buying tickets. They knew they had to begin THE REBUILD. They knew Eli was 38 years old. They knew he had regressed. I don't think anyone was expecting miracles. All the stuff they said about winning...that's just what every front office is going to say. After 30 years or so of paying attention to Giants' football, you learn to see through that bullshit. I really hope they weren't believing their own bullshit, anyway, because I didn't.
If DG would've loved Darnold, for example, and Saquon didn't exist, I think he would've taken him.
And the two biggest things he needed to fix when he got here were the OL and the coaching staff. Not only hasn't he fixed them, he hasn't improved them at all. Instead he has replaced the whole roster with younger guys who are, over all, about the same talent level as those they replaced. He could have replaced the players in a far more orderly fashion.
And what I can't get over is what he said about his interview with Shurmur: "He's a mature professional." The current team is what you get when you value demeanor over talent.
Quote:
If the 2018 & 2019 drafts turn out well than how were the years wasted? People freak out over Omaneh and Stewart, they were low to mid dollar signings that didn't work, all teams have these. Solder was an above average player when he was signed and played a position of great need.
The Giants were starting from a very low point with very little talent, could things have worked out better, sure, but there wasn't going to be any Super Bowl trips in those years. You can't keep switching GMs and plans every two years because you can't truly judge what they've done. Saying he screwed up by singing a backup RB who was supposed to be a steady hand in the locker room isn't enough of a reason to completely switch gears again.
Thank you, well said. Anyone expecting this team to be competitive at this point is delusional. When you overhaul a roster the way the Giants are right now, especially a youth based overhaul, it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to turn things around. Things will get better.
The feeling I get from reading the many Gettleman posts are that the vast majority of anti-Gettleman guys (I'm one of them) had absolutely no expectation that we would be competing for a playoff spot this season or last. However, we would have expected some improvement.
The fact that personnel mastermind Dave Gettleman took over a 3 win team and in two years, turned it into a possible 2 win team, is evidence enough that we've wasted the last two years. There have been very few, if any, signs of improvement from this team. It's quite evident that the Giants are regarded as anywhere from the worst to the 3rd worst ream in the league. It is an absolute embarrassment.
So we've come from a 3 win team and the 2nd overall draft pick to a possible 2 win team and the #1 overall draft pick. If that's not wasting two years, I don't know what is.
How many of you pro-Gettleman guys would have signed on for this two years ago? I'd wager not one of you. It's mind boggling how anyone can continue to support him. He should be fired.
Home
Washington Redskins
Arizona Cardinals
San Francisco 49ers
Cleveland Browns
Pittsburgh Steelers
NFC South* (Falcons or Panthers)
Dallas Cowboys
Philadelphia Eagles
Away
Washington Redskins
Seattle Seahawks
Philadelphia Eagles
NFC North* (Lions)
Los Angeles Rams
Cincinnati Bengals
Dallas Cowboys
Baltimore Ravens
Nfl doesn’t work like that. This isn’t the nba or mlb. It’s a year to year league.
Quote:
If the 2018 & 2019 drafts turn out well than how were the years wasted? People freak out over Omaneh and Stewart, they were low to mid dollar signings that didn't work, all teams have these. Solder was an above average player when he was signed and played a position of great need.
The Giants were starting from a very low point with very little talent, could things have worked out better, sure, but there wasn't going to be any Super Bowl trips in those years. You can't keep switching GMs and plans every two years because you can't truly judge what they've done. Saying he screwed up by singing a backup RB who was supposed to be a steady hand in the locker room isn't enough of a reason to completely switch gears again.
Thank you, well said. Anyone expecting this team to be competitive at this point is delusional. When you overhaul a roster the way the Giants are right now, especially a youth based overhaul, it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to turn things around. Things will get better.
You know what else makes it take longer than two years?
When you spend the first year in denial about being a team in need of a rebuild, so you sign free agents as though you're a playoff contender and draft a RB #2 overall, and then when that blows up in your face, you sell veterans at pennies on the dollar and spend your second year cleaning up your own self-imposed cap mess from your misevaluation of the roster the year before.
We're heading into year three of a supposed rebuild and we're already about a year and a half behind schedule. If not for Jones, I'd call it a full two years behind schedule, but having the future QB is a central element of the rebuild and I don't want to be disingenuous in my criticism.
To say that it takes longer than two years? That may be true, independent of other information. But if you can't see that Gettleman has made errors that have already made this take longer than it should have, you're either not paying attention, or you're being a serious homer.
2. Some of the assistant and unit coaches seem to be orders of magnitude less experienced and proven and specifically targetted than those on winning teams. Is this about money, about coaching, about front office? How did those hires go down and what's the context?
I am really on the fence about whether to fire him or not. What I need to know BEFORE agreeing that he should be fired is WHO we plan to replace him with.
In all of these fire Gettleman threads (or threads that turn into that), rarely do I see anyone coming up with an alternative to DG who makes me say..."yeah, THAT guy will come in here and turn our roster around".
So, WHO are we hiring to replace him?
Quote:
Good luck finding 7-8 wins in it
Home
Washington Redskins
Arizona Cardinals
San Francisco 49ers
Cleveland Browns
Pittsburgh Steelers
NFC South* (Falcons or Panthers)
Dallas Cowboys
Philadelphia Eagles
Away
Washington Redskins
Seattle Seahawks
Philadelphia Eagles
NFC North* (Lions)
Los Angeles Rams
Cincinnati Bengals
Dallas Cowboys
Baltimore Ravens
Nfl doesn’t work like that. This isn’t the nba or mlb. It’s a year to year league.
For most teams, you are probably right. With the current state of ineptitude within the NYG, it does not apply. Last December, I posted the 2019 opponents and said the NYG probably go 5-11. I held that all spring and summer. We are 2-11 and really should be 1-12. The above list? Even if Mara did everything right (clean house and make the right hires; NOT Rivera or Garrett) and the organization has an A+ offseason, the odds of them making a 5-6 game improvement just to get to mediocre aren’t good. Forget about getting to 9/10 wins and the playoffs. We are still maybe 2 years away (if we can DG). Right now, my guess is that schedule yields 5 or 6 wins (again, if we can DG). If we keep him, who knows what further damage he may inflict on the roster.
People are being blinded by poor preparation and coaching into believing that we lack talent.
People are being blinded by poor preparation and coaching into believing that we lack talent.
No one disagreed with his FA moves at the time? Really?
Hiring DG was ownership's attempt to roll back time and change their mind's on the Reese hire. There was a reason they didn't choose DG to begin with. They should have remembered that.
The NFL has changed significantly. You either recognize that and you change with it or you don't and your teams are consistent losers. Which boat do you think Mara and Tisch are in??
People are being blinded by poor preparation and coaching into believing that we lack talent.
This is just an absurd comment. How do you know these were great drafts? A bunch of unproven guys that in total have not contributed to the improvement of a single unit on the team. Maybe some of these guys will be players, but they are just a bunch of question marks at this point. You are substituting hope and faith for objective analysis. I know football requires 22 players, but I would think that if the giants had added 10+ above-average nfl players over the last two seasons as some of you are claiming they’ve done (including at qb) that would have resulted in better than 2-14.
People are being blinded by poor preparation and coaching into believing that we lack talent.
I am pretty sure I disagree with each of these sentences.
It also means Abrams would keep his current role, which is ok because I don’t see how Abrams is qualified to be theGiants GM.
I don’t mean to say that excuses Gettleman. The contracts given to Solder, Martin and Stewart were bad decisions at the time (excluding Omameh, which I think was a surprise because it was just so much worse than anyone could have expected), but he faced a bad situation. That needs to be acknowledged.
Some people reduced that to 'well, the owners are going to pick someone they're comfortable and familiar with and trust' - it's not just that relationship, but the ones he developed over the course of more than a decade with the scouting department.
The talent evaluation apparatus of this team is broken. Is it Chris Mara? The scouts? Who knows. Bringing in a guy that was close to them to evaluate something that had been working and started sputtering 7 years earlier was a bad idea, and continues to be a bad idea.
Someone from the outside needs to be brought in. Someone without a prior working relationship to the relevant parties. Someone who can with some independence review and report on how effectively different people and processes within the org are working, and then recommend what changes need to be made. If that includes dismissing Gettleman, so be it.
Hiring DG was ownership's attempt to roll back time and change their mind's on the Reese hire. There was a reason they didn't choose DG to begin with. They should have remembered that.
The NFL has changed significantly. You either recognize that and you change with it or you don't and your teams are consistent losers. Which boat do you think Mara and Tisch are in??
I see this comment a lot... the NFL has changed. How? Be specific? What has changed? Most of the time this is just a knock on DG's age.
All for a player who is averaging 3.5 sacks/yr over his 5 years in the NFL. And he hasn’t had a sack in over a year.
Thank the football gods for allowing us to trade a 3rd and a 5th to get “control” over such a great player.
And he is in a contract year!!!! What happens when he gets his $$$??
The process and decision making was bad when he didn't take 6th pick and 3 2nd rounders for Barkley. By that stage in the off-season he should have known that he didn't like any of the QBs and therefore the value of barkley was never going to match #6 + high 2nd and then 2 more second round picks..
Then you look at guys like stewart.. no one even wanted to sign this guy.. he was brought in for culture, at that stage every GM should have known that he couldn't play.. yet we couldn't get him on a vet minimum.. When your GM cannot convince his guys (who also have no other options) to take league minimum you know something is flawed.. add to it the way he has handled WR.. extending Shepard and paying good $$ for Tate.. very very similar WR.. one or the other would be good.. putting too many resources into the same thing while neglecting others is just bad process..
Then you look at trading for Ogletree.. Leonard Williams trade after the fact that we've already spent a 1st,2nd and a high 3rd on DT over the last 3 years.. he then adds another DT who cannot get after the QB.. Prior to LW we were already top 7 in run defense in terms of YPC..
Then to make some salary cap room for this year he move salary to bonus for Solder and has done that with Ogletree in the past as well.. If the players are not performing why are we increasing their future dead cap hits? He should have cut Ellison at the beginning of the year to save some cap room.. there was really no use for him and he was well under-performing his contract..
Finally he should have cut Eli to make room to get more OL FA.. we desperately needed them if for nothing else then depth..
Most of BBI was clamoring for a complete rebuild and that's what we got. Now everyone is forgetting that the tear down phase of the process is painful.
Now - that isn't to say he has been good. He has bungled the OL which was supposed to be his strength. We don't have a single linebacker that is any good at football except for a 5th round rookie who tore his knee. And if he had final say on the Shurmur hire, he has been an utter disaster.
All that being said, he has done a good job of clearing the deck for 2020 which always seemed to be the plan, especially with shedding salary. There's a good amount of DL and LB talent out there in free agency. Let's make some smart moves, draft another 3-4 good players, and hire a good fucking coach to get in here and get this thing moving.
What are you going to say if team is 8-8 next year and young players play well and are the clear reason for the improvement?
Quote:
If you really have to ask that question then responding to you is only a further waste of time...
What are you going to say if team is 8-8 next year and young players play well and are the clear reason for the improvement?
When you start as a GM of a team that was 3-13 and have the 2nd pick in a draft with high potential QBs.. you are expected to improve on that 3-13 record.. in 2 years we are actually a worse team now.. how many years of top 6 picks do you need before you are expected to win more than 5 games?
You can field a team and not give out enormous contracts.
This thread is ridiculous.
And here’s what we do know. The Head Coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NFL history by his record. We thought his Cleveland record was explainable and as it turns out - he has been worse then his time in Cleveland and everything that was happening in Cleveland is happening here and worse.
Fire Shurmur and his entire coaching staff and hire someone new at HC. Start there.
Barkley has been a replacement level back this year, when you take off the rose colored glasses. Whether that’s attributed to injury, poor oline play, rookie play of DJ, it’s all reasons why RB is not a position worth a major investment, especially with the 2nd overall pick. Now he’s heading into year 3 and not too far off from either a material allocation of cap space to his contract or letting him walk. In either case it hampers a rebuild, so how exact was he a benefit to the rebuild?
Hernandez has regressed and is part of severe oline issue. Carter has been non existent. The rest aren’t even worth mentioning. So where is the warm and fuzzy feelings about this draft?
If we win 2 games this year what do you think would be a realistic goal would be for next year? Superbowl or bust? DG gets fired if we don't win it all?
Again there he took over a 2-14 team and mde them into a 10 win team with a QB who was added for only a 2nd rounder.. then his QB gets injured in a season ending injury early in the season and they had other major injuries (much worse then what the Giants have seen in DG's time) and because of that he has a bad season but even then he wins more games than the 2-14 record he inherited.. He got a pass because of the major injuries..
Giants don't have that this year.. Jones and Eli played as they were supposed to until last week..
Quote:
that John Lynch was hired in 2017. The first 2 years there, the 49ers were downright terrible, and nobody was calling for Lynch to be fired because he was left with an absolutely horrific roster and they had a plan in place.
Again there he took over a 2-14 team and mde them into a 10 win team with a QB who was added for only a 2nd rounder.. then his QB gets injured in a season ending injury early in the season and they had other major injuries (much worse then what the Giants have seen in DG's time) and because of that he has a bad season but even then he wins more games than the 2-14 record he inherited.. He got a pass because of the major injuries..
Giants don't have that this year.. Jones and Eli played as they were supposed to until last week..
meant to say a 6 win team.. not 10..
Quote:
have become. This guy will be a hero if he manages the org to 8-8 next season.
If we win 2 games this year what do you think would be a realistic goal would be for next year? Superbowl or bust? DG gets fired if we don't win it all?
I don’t think DG is capable of an A+ offseason, but if he did somehow have that, the ceiling next year is probably 6-10. A 3 or 4 game improvement off 3-13 or 2-14 is reasonable to expect. In fact, it’s probably linear with a team on the ascent. A typical DG offseason littered with shit FA’s and trades and an OK draft probably tops us out at 4-12 or 5-11.
Nobody is shitting on Shurmer because we believe it’s a slam dunk he’s toast. We are arguing that the entire slate needs to be blown out.
I disagree we’d be in the hunt for the division too.
I was on the fence with DG and some good points made from many posts. But he has ultimate responsibility for making us competitive which we have seen no improvement and gone backwards. It rolls up to him like any structure.
Ownership sucks and Mara is a big problem. I can only hope Tisch is sick of his nepotism with Chris Mara and they bring in an outsider to run all football operations. Buck stops with them....
Why he could be fired:
1. He owns the turnaround or lack thereof. Simple. We have gotten worse and the record shows it since he came onboard. You are what your record is
2. Blame coaching? He approved the grown up in the room..Shurmur and his staff. Betcher is a mirage...he kept the engine running at Arizona and doesn;t know how to coach
3. Hog Molly #1. Cant rebuild in a day but he has totally whiffed 100% on this #1 focus. In fact, I would say we have regressed and are paying top dollar for it (see Solder)
4. Williams trade. Its been blown up here enough. Anyone who negotiates for a liviing knows how bad this was and many are flippant about a 3rd rounder blah blah blah...but draft capital vs value (12-15M) vs production does not balance on this equation.
5. 2018 draft. Why is this such a great draft for him? Hernandez sucks and has gone backwards as many point out how good he is??? Maybe its coaching but right now he looks like a bad move. I won't get into SB as I love the kid but there was an opportunity to build an OL and get picks in moving down..enough said. 2018 shaping up to be a "C" draft
6. Free agency- total misses. Nothing I can point to that even feels good. He should not be trusted with 70M+
We don't need 90 year old consultants recommending Dinosaurs who are ready to retire as our GMs. Time to change things up
Barry Switzer called, he said his SB ring disagrees with your post.
No one expected a contender this year, but a complete regression in all aspects is unacceptable. The team needs new leadership and this GM will rightfully be fired after the season ends.
The idea of Gettleman with a top 3 pick and $70M in cap room terrifies he. Keeping Gettleman for another year could set this franchise back for years and leave a whole new mess for the next GM. Let's bring in a smart GM while we have a relatively clean slate to work with.
He apparently is a victim of having been misled by Pat Shurmur as to his abilities as a coach.
His firing in Carolina was not a reflection of his job performance and can be blamed on a bad owner.
His high, high draft choice in 2018 and 2 of the 3 in in 2019 look to be keepers.
He is better than Reese.
He rebuilt the OL by spending alot of money to bring in all new names and though it did not pan out you have got to give him credit for getting rid of Flowers who we all hated.
He cannot be blamed for the bad free agent moves, or the missed draft choices because everyone misses some.
The LW trade was actually a brilliant move and it only cost a very high 3rd round draft choice and possibly a 4th, but then again looking at how those have been used by DG he probably did better than he would have in the draft.
He cleaned out the bad attitudes from the lockerroom so that we can lose with a nicer, happier group of guys.
He knows how to dance with the media when he talks to them and he has a "plan" for rebuilding the Giants--a very flexible plan that will not fail because it can be constantly adjusted to account for every move and every failed decision.
Keep him please.
Quote:
the only person responsible for the Giants record is Dave Gettleman. I'd argue coaching in the NFL is way, way, way more important than picking players. Sure, you have to have good players. But we have Pat Shurmur is our head coach, one of the single worst football coaches in NFL history. Why is Gettleman the only one getting blame here? If we had even a decent coach, this team would probably be .500 right now and in the hunt for the division.
Barry Switzer called, he said his SB ring disagrees with your post.
Barry Switzer wasn't a good coach? His three college football national championship rings, and one of the highest winning percentages in college football history disagrees with your post.
Barry Switzer wasn't a good coach? His three college football national championship rings, and one of the highest winning percentages in college football history disagrees with your post.
Barry Switzer was not a good NFL head coach. There is video of Troy Aikman saying that. Even sideline video of him saying the coach has no balls and is worthless.
Funny this is coming up now because I saw this video less than one week ago
Quote:
Barry Switzer wasn't a good coach? His three college football national championship rings, and one of the highest winning percentages in college football history disagrees with your post.
Barry Switzer was not a good NFL head coach. There is video of Troy Aikman saying that. Even sideline video of him saying the coach has no balls and is worthless.
Funny this is coming up now because I saw this video less than one week ago
Barry Switzer coached college football for 16 years, won 3 championships, and had one of the highest winning percentages (still) of all time.
He coached 3 seasons in the NFL, went 12-4 the first, 12-4 the second and won a Superbowl, and then 6-10 and was fired.
Are you equating Pat Shurmur to Barry Switzer? Because I'm thinking that's a pretty poor comparison.
Secondly, in what universe are we even trying to compare the 1994 Cowboys roster to the 2017 Giants roster?
The point was that the NFL being so extremely dependent on coaching and less on talent is a myth. Bad coaches have won with lesser talent.
You've got a shit roster and a shit coach, and the net result is, well, shit.
The point was that the NFL being so extremely dependent on coaching and less on talent is a myth. Bad coaches have won with lesser talent.
You've got a shit roster and a shit coach, and the net result is, well, shit.
Spurrier too. You would want him badly right now if you didn't know what you know about his jump the NFL.
Spurrier and Chip Kelly should be cautionary tales. I guess Switzer too if that's what you think.
Quote:
have become. This guy will be a hero if he manages the org to 8-8 next season.
If we win 2 games this year what do you think would be a realistic goal would be for next year? Superbowl or bust? DG gets fired if we don't win it all?
Exactly why he should be fired right now. He was part of the coaching search and roster procurement that got us where we are today, which is a complete and utter laughing stock. He looked at the roster 2 years ago and thought he could leverage what little resources where available to win in the short term with Eli while also righting Reese's wrongs and turning the roster over.
The approach was either his idea or he agreed to take the role and go along with what ownership was prescribing. It was a tremendously bad assessment in either case, and I don't see why you give him another bite at the apple when you're back at pretty much ground zero once again with a pocket full of cash and sitting at the top end of the draft.
Nothing has been built in these 2 seasons. There is no direction. There is no culture. He drafted some good players with premium draft capital -- that's a non-negotiable baseline, not an accomplishment. His body of work in free agency has been shit.
You're right, while you and FatMan would be high-fiving each other over the hire of Pat Shurmur and Dave Gettleman.
This is a joke, right? Are you twelve years old? That's the only way that comment makes any sense. 2018, aside from Barkley (who ain't looking too good at the moment either), is pure shit. Lauletta was a total bust. So is McIntosh. Hill is so awesome that they traded two picks for the privilege of paying through the nose for Williams. Carter is useless. Hernandez has stunk this year.
Complete bullshit. Go back to the archives - there were plenty of people who weren't terribly happy about the Solder signing.
Don't remember high fives.
I WAS WRONG.
I've said that before, and I'll say it again. Something that I imagine some of you have never said on this board and never will.
I still believe Gettleman is on the right track, and I do believe an experienced NFL Head Coach can pull more, much more, out of this roster assembled now, and what we add in the offseason.
There won't be any celebration though, I'm tired of watching this shit. I don't care what the fucking guy's name is, and whether he knows the Maras personally or not, I just want to go back to watching some actual, competitive football, with playoff chances not being squashed before the month of October starts.
Quote:
This whole regime was a bad decision from the beginning.
Hiring DG was ownership's attempt to roll back time and change their mind's on the Reese hire. There was a reason they didn't choose DG to begin with. They should have remembered that.
The NFL has changed significantly. You either recognize that and you change with it or you don't and your teams are consistent losers. Which boat do you think Mara and Tisch are in??
I see this comment a lot... the NFL has changed. How? Be specific? What has changed? Most of the time this is just a knock on DG's age.
Yes, DG's age has him locked in on how to choose players and evaluate talent. He is still picking like it's 1985. That was a LONG time ago, in a football galaxy FAR FAR AWAY...
He has one thing right, you build from the inside out. He just isn't hitting on the inside to this point. Bad FA signings and the now notorious Williams trade.
In my opinion, we need a younger GM with a similar philosophy (build from the inside, O-Line - D-Line / Linebacker and then the outside) but with an eye for today's upcoming stars. Not guys who would have fit the mold in the 80's/90's.
Your opinion may differ and that's fine. This is just the way I see it :)
Mara should have known that eyeglasses are a sign of weakness!
You can bookmark this post if you'd like - if they do exactly that, and return to winning (and real winning, not a 6-10 season, a record with more than 8 wins), I'll gladly come back and eat crow. I'm much more interested in a winning season than in being right.
And I do think that's exactly what they'll try, pairing Rivera with Gettleman. I just don't think that it's going to work.
Disagree. The Cards and Jets physically bullied the NYG. The Bear game was never in doubt. Tate’s late TD was window dressing. The 2 I think you might be right on are the Eagle and (maybe) Lion games. Offsetting that is the loss we should have incurred in Tampa. So, all in all, at best, maybe we are 3-10 instead of 2-11. Big f’ing deal.
To be 2-11 (really should be 1 - 12) with their schedule is really Hall of Fame bad. Outside of the Patriots they missed the entire top their of teams
I don't think anyone underestimates Shurmur - but it's hard to fault him entirely when there are so many rookies and so many holes on the roster. Kill Bettcher all you want, but he has exactly 1 guy who can rush the passer, no linebackers worth a damn, and a rookie secondary.
Assuming that defense would have some dramatic resurgence with another coach isn't reasonable. Could they have won 1 more of those games with better coaching? Probably. 3 or 4? Sure, if Belichick is willing to sign on.
Quote:
people underestimate how bad Shurmur actually is. Cardinals, Lions, Eagles, Jets, Bears games...of those 5 games we would have at least 3 wins, maybe 4 with a decently good football coach. Shurmur really is that horrific.
I don't think anyone underestimates Shurmur - but it's hard to fault him entirely [/b]when there are so many rookies[/b] and so many holes on the roster. Kill Bettcher all you want, but he has exactly 1 guy who can rush the passer, no linebackers worth a damn, and a rookie secondary.
Assuming that defense would have some dramatic resurgence with another coach isn't reasonable. Could they have won 1 more of those games with better coaching? Probably. 3 or 4? Sure, if Belichick is willing to sign on.
Something that Dave Gettleman has had exactly one and a half seasons to fix. That's exactly why it's harder to blame Gettleman than Shurmur.
It's reasonable to believe all of those rookies will get better. It's reasonable to believe the holes will still get filled with another draft and a lot to spend in free agency.
What is also reasonable to believe is that in many of the games that we've been in this year, better coaching could have closed them out. Would we be 10-6? NO. But we could be a 6 or 7 win team perhaps with better coaching (which shockingly would have us still in contention this particular season, not that we should expect to do anything with it but it's something to build on). It looked like that was happening last year, and then it all regressed. I blame that on Shurmur. Going backwards with the same roster. That's exactly what soured me on McAdoo.
Quote:
Best drafts in my lifetime under Gettleman.
This is a joke, right? Are you twelve years old? That's the only way that comment makes any sense. 2018, aside from Barkley (who ain't looking too good at the moment either), is pure shit. Lauletta was a total bust. So is McIntosh. Hill is so awesome that they traded two picks for the privilege of paying through the nose for Williams. Carter is useless. Hernandez has stunk this year.
Quote:
Everyone trying to kill him over Omemeh(sp) and Solder, not a single one of them disagreed with the move at the time.
Complete bullshit. Go back to the archives - there were plenty of people who weren't terribly happy about the Solder signing.
I'm fine with people calling the drafts 'promising' or saying it's too early to judge, but the assertion that DG had great drafts as facts is absolute delusion and fantasy.
Because Reese had already been given his second and third chances to get it stabilized.
He apparently is a victim of having been misled by Pat Shurmur as to his abilities as a coach.
His firing in Carolina was not a reflection of his job performance and can be blamed on a bad owner.
His high, high draft choice in 2018 and 2 of the 3 in in 2019 look to be keepers.
He is better than Reese.
He rebuilt the OL by spending alot of money to bring in all new names and though it did not pan out you have got to give him credit for getting rid of Flowers who we all hated.
He cannot be blamed for the bad free agent moves, or the missed draft choices because everyone misses some.
The LW trade was actually a brilliant move and it only cost a very high 3rd round draft choice and possibly a 4th, but then again looking at how those have been used by DG he probably did better than he would have in the draft.
He cleaned out the bad attitudes from the lockerroom so that we can lose with a nicer, happier group of guys.
He knows how to dance with the media when he talks to them and he has a "plan" for rebuilding the Giants--a very flexible plan that will not fail because it can be constantly adjusted to account for every move and every failed decision.
Keep him please.
Well done satire right there. Maybe Chris Mara should be GM if not DG? He's got the best genes.
Quote:
In comment 14715575 ryanmkeane said:
Quote:
people underestimate how bad Shurmur actually is. Cardinals, Lions, Eagles, Jets, Bears games...of those 5 games we would have at least 3 wins, maybe 4 with a decently good football coach. Shurmur really is that horrific.
I don't think anyone underestimates Shurmur - but it's hard to fault him entirely [/b]when there are so many rookies[/b] and so many holes on the roster. Kill Bettcher all you want, but he has exactly 1 guy who can rush the passer, no linebackers worth a damn, and a rookie secondary.
Assuming that defense would have some dramatic resurgence with another coach isn't reasonable. Could they have won 1 more of those games with better coaching? Probably. 3 or 4? Sure, if Belichick is willing to sign on.
Something that Dave Gettleman has had exactly one and a half seasons to fix. That's exactly why it's harder to blame Gettleman than Shurmur.
It's reasonable to believe all of those rookies will get better. It's reasonable to believe the holes will still get filled with another draft and a lot to spend in free agency.
What is also reasonable to believe is that in many of the games that we've been in this year, better coaching could have closed them out. Would we be 10-6? NO. But we could be a 6 or 7 win team perhaps with better coaching (which shockingly would have us still in contention this particular season, not that we should expect to do anything with it but it's something to build on). It looked like that was happening last year, and then it all regressed. I blame that on Shurmur. Going backwards with the same roster. That's exactly what soured me on McAdoo.
Gettleman willingly created those holes - on a team he inherited that was a season removed from 11 wins.
He doesn't get credit for the magnitude of the mess when he created a good deal of it.
Keeping guys on that don't fit your vision for the future or culture of what you want your lockerroom to avoid creating holes is also a poor plan. One that ultimately cost Jerry Reese his job.
Quote:
DG also spent his first off-season making moves to compete immediately. If people thought the team was so close to the playoffs, why fire Reese to begin with?
Because Reese had already been given his second and third chances to get it stabilized.
And then DG took this team that was apparently close to the playoffs and got 5 wins out of it.
My view is that Reese created a garbage roster and deserved to be fired, but DG thought he could turn it around in one off-season. It didn't happen, and then he took steps to blow it up and rebuild. But that initial misjudgment set us back.
Reese was the GM for the 3 win season.
Those are the results, not the long term vision/goal.
They gave it the old college try.
He needed to evaluate what he had, and maybe the only way he could do that was to put it on the field.
Is it possible DG had certain things pushed on him like Eli Manning? Or at least veiled pressure to keep him? Absolutely. But again that's the pervasive problem that people think need to be fixed by not having someone that's going to be manipulated or tacitly coerced by people that don't know how to succeed in today's NFL.
Building a team isn't tech support. You don't have to assume the people came before you didn't know the proper steps and like restart and plug and unplug things. You can see what has occurred and what you have before they take the field, in fact that's the job.
And frankly if DG didn't whiff so enormously bad in FA this might be a completely different conversation. Many here want to be like well how could he or anyone have known that would happen? When there were many calling out the hire and the signings from the get go.
The worst part? All the culture bluster. Solder was supposed to be a veteran leader but instead he is an embarrassment. Do you know what it does to a team to see someone paid that highly be so spectacularly poorly? Ditto for Ogletree, a guy that came into the NFL with character concerns that a contending team wanted to dump and we wanted to just eat up their table scraps for the right to pay and give up draft capital. That doesn't even begin to scratch the surface of our culture problems. You don't get to hire the "adult in the room" preach culture and oversee this disaster without a bunch of egg on your face.
There was a reason they didn't choose DG to begin with. They should have remembered that.
This is the most under discussed point on DG. Back then Acorsi and Mara knew that DG was a good scout but did not project as well as an executive.
As an executive DG blew up in CAR, and has blown up here.
Quote:
the decision making is completely incongruent at that point; if you decide that Reese has earned dismissal, how do you then turn around and say 'with a few tweaks here and there these guys can win the division'?
They gave it the old college try.
He needed to evaluate what he had, and maybe the only way he could do that was to put it on the field.
This could very well be where you and some others diverge from those who think he should be fired.
Many or most think the old college try isn't an acceptable approach.
If you have no idea what you actually have, and the best strategy you can muster is to just roll the dice and see what happens on the field, you best be saving every penny you can along the way.
You know what else makes it take longer than two years?
When you spend the first year in denial about being a team in need of a rebuild, so you sign free agents as though you're a playoff contender and draft a RB #2 overall, and then when that blows up in your face, you sell veterans at pennies on the dollar and spend your second year cleaning up your own self-imposed cap mess from your misevaluation of the roster the year before.
Succinct, spot on - bold emphasis mine
I don't view this as the massive setback, misjudging the roster that you do.
I see it as exactly what it was. Giving it a go with the pieces you had, it failed, and then you cut bait. Sometimes it really is that simple.
Where we diverged, was that people thought up the conspiracy of go all in on Eli, and that drove some people on here completely mad. Conspiracy theories about being mandated that Gettleman build the roster completely around Eli to win now at all costs, yada, yada, yada.
I just viewed it as putting the pieces that he had, on the field with the pieces he accumulated and replaced, and giving a look at what would happen. I see it as just an evaluation. That simple.
'So, our latest earnings - tough market conditions, a few unforeseen changes that proved to be challenging, but hey, we gave it the old college try and we lost money, what can you do, right?'
And here’s what we do know. The Head Coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NFL history by his record. We thought his Cleveland record was explainable and as it turns out - he has been worse then his time in Cleveland and everything that was happening in Cleveland is happening here and worse.
Fire Shurmur and his entire coaching staff and hire someone new at HC. Start there.
soooo if Shurmur was terrible in CLE...
yettt still won more games in CLE than NY...
thennn the difference would be roster talent differentials...
andddd DG should be fired just as quick as Holmgren was...
'So, our latest earnings - tough market conditions, a few unforeseen changes that proved to be challenging, but hey, we gave it the old college try and we lost money, what can you do, right?'
LOL.
When my financial adviser tells me that I step back and applaud him for effort.
I don't view this as the massive setback, misjudging the roster that you do.
I see it as exactly what it was. Giving it a go with the pieces you had, it failed, and then you cut bait. Sometimes it really is that simple.
Where we diverged, was that people thought up the conspiracy of go all in on Eli, and that drove some people on here completely mad. Conspiracy theories about being mandated that Gettleman build the roster completely around Eli to win now at all costs, yada, yada, yada.
I just viewed it as putting the pieces that he had, on the field with the pieces he accumulated and replaced, and giving a look at what would happen. I see it as just an evaluation. That simple.
With no proof either way, how can you call it a conspiracy theory that Eli being the starting QB in 2018 was a condition set by ownership prior to the hiring of a GM? Poor attempt to make the people who disagree with you look crazy.
And frankly, it doesn't change the conversation that much in the context of this discussion -- if he made the decision him self, major whiff and utter failure. If the decision really belonged to ownership and DG just went along for the ride in order to get the gig and the paycheck, major whiff and utter failure.
I don't think he deserves another shot to get it right in either case.
Don't remember high fives.
Britt, I feel the same.
DG should get at least another year. But he needs to pick the right HC this time.
I too thought Shurmur would have evolved, and thinking the second time around would have served him well.
But then you look at his staff (the OL coacha nd Shula for example) and these guys are not even considered top flight assistants. I can't speak for Bettcher repute.
None of our guys are in line for promotions......or other teams saying "hey, look at this guy"..........
The next HC has to be able to prove his assistants are going to carry the load, because the HC can't do it alone.
Quote:
General Manager is a completely different job then Head Coach and should be evaluated separately
And here’s what we do know. The Head Coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NFL history by his record. We thought his Cleveland record was explainable and as it turns out - he has been worse then his time in Cleveland and everything that was happening in Cleveland is happening here and worse.
Fire Shurmur and his entire coaching staff and hire someone new at HC. Start there.
soooo if Shurmur was terrible in CLE...
yettt still won more games in CLE than NY...
thennn the difference would be roster talent differentials...
andddd DG should be fired just as quick as Holmgren was...
I think that's a poor evaluation.
Just because team A beats team B, and B beats C, then A should beat C.
Doesn't work that way IMO. Lots of factors.
Fact is, he's sucked in both spots. We don't have the best talent, but we shouldn't be 2-11. We should have won on Monday Night, for example.
Quote:
I don't remember feeling much one way or the other about Shurmur. Probably excited that he just coached a really good offense in Minnesota, probably hopeful that he learned from his mistakes in Cleveland. He did not come through and now I want him fired.
Don't remember high fives.
Britt, I feel the same.
DG should get at least another year. But he needs to pick the right HC this time.
I too thought Shurmur would have evolved, and thinking the second time around would have served him well.
But then you look at his staff (the OL coacha nd Shula for example) and these guys are not even considered top flight assistants. I can't speak for Bettcher repute.
None of our guys are in line for promotions......or other teams saying "hey, look at this guy"..........
The next HC has to be able to prove his assistants are going to carry the load, because the HC can't do it alone.
It's kinda funny you picked Shula, seeing as Shurmur didn't get his choice of OC (he was blocked), and Gettleman had the relationship with Shurmur.
When you look at so many different decisions that have been made during his tenure that have been as far off as humanly possible, I can't understand how anyone can objectively look at the big picture and think 'this is a person who should remain employed'.
I almost feel like it's a good thing they didn't have to build the stadium recently, because the way they're going it would have collapsed on them.
Quote:
In comment 14715537 Britt in VA said:
Quote:
I don't remember feeling much one way or the other about Shurmur. Probably excited that he just coached a really good offense in Minnesota, probably hopeful that he learned from his mistakes in Cleveland. He did not come through and now I want him fired.
Don't remember high fives.
Britt, I feel the same.
DG should get at least another year. But he needs to pick the right HC this time.
I too thought Shurmur would have evolved, and thinking the second time around would have served him well.
But then you look at his staff (the OL coacha nd Shula for example) and these guys are not even considered top flight assistants. I can't speak for Bettcher repute.
None of our guys are in line for promotions......or other teams saying "hey, look at this guy"..........
The next HC has to be able to prove his assistants are going to carry the load, because the HC can't do it alone.
It's kinda funny you picked Shula, seeing as Shurmur didn't get his choice of OC (he was blocked), and Gettleman had the relationship with Shurmur.
When you look at so many different decisions that have been made during his tenure that have been as far off as humanly possible, I can't understand how anyone can objectively look at the big picture and think 'this is a person who should remain employed'.
I almost feel like it's a good thing they didn't have to build the stadium recently, because the way they're going it would have collapsed on them.
I didn't realize that Shula was picked by DG, not Shurmur.
I am also surprised that Shurmur would agree to that.
If I am a GM, I let the HC pick his own guys.
I don't view this as the massive setback, misjudging the roster that you do.
I see it as exactly what it was. Giving it a go with the pieces you had, it failed, and then you cut bait. Sometimes it really is that simple.
Where we diverged, was that people thought up the conspiracy of go all in on Eli, and that drove some people on here completely mad. Conspiracy theories about being mandated that Gettleman build the roster completely around Eli to win now at all costs, yada, yada, yada.
I just viewed it as putting the pieces that he had, on the field with the pieces he accumulated and replaced, and giving a look at what would happen. I see it as just an evaluation. That simple.
Britt, he wasted the entire 2018 offseason operating with a misevaluation of the roster and then spent the 2019 offseason cleaning up a mess that was largely created by his signings in 2018 that were not congruent with a rebuild. How can you say it wasn't that big of a deal? He wasted the better part of two offseasons that could have been used more productively with a teardown in 2018 and this past offseason laying the groundwork for his foundation without having to carry the most dead money in the NFL. We would almost certainly be significantly farther along in the rebuild, assuming you continue to believe in DG's talent evaluation.
Just because he cut bait after 8 games doesn't mean that only half a season was wasted; the entire offseason is what was wasted, which essentially means he wasted a full year even if he turned around and got a head start on 2019 halfway into the 2018 season.
I think that's a poor evaluation.
Just because team A beats team B, and B beats C, then A should beat C.
Doesn't work that way IMO. Lots of factors.
Fact is, he's sucked in both spots. We don't have the best talent, but we shouldn't be 2-11. We should have won on Monday Night, for example.
He's sucked in both spots, true - as have both the GMs. You believe another coach would have won Mon night - I think that Solder and Ogletree - DG's two most expensive additions - were the reason we lost.
So, the same weird dance we've been doing for years?
Quote:
If you really have to ask that question then responding to you is only a further waste of time...
What are you going to say if team is 8-8 next year and young players play well and are the clear reason for the improvement?
I would say Gettleman’s replacement did a really good job in his first year...
Quote:
If the 2018 & 2019 drafts turn out well than how were the years wasted? People freak out over Omaneh and Stewart, they were low to mid dollar signings that didn't work, all teams have these. Solder was an above average player when he was signed and played a position of great need.
The Giants were starting from a very low point with very little talent, could things have worked out better, sure, but there wasn't going to be any Super Bowl trips in those years. You can't keep switching GMs and plans every two years because you can't truly judge what they've done. Saying he screwed up by singing a backup RB who was supposed to be a steady hand in the locker room isn't enough of a reason to completely switch gears again.
Thank you, well said. Anyone expecting this team to be competitive at this point is delusional. When you overhaul a roster the way the Giants are right now, especially a youth based overhaul, it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to turn things around. Things will get better.
True. Hopefully in year 20 we'll start to compete and start winning 8-9 games. Have to be patient and stay the course. Getts is doing a hell of a job. Best it's been by gm here in years.
You’re a visionary
I love Groundhog Day.
So, the same weird dance we've been doing for years?
We really haven't been doing that dance for years, Jerry Reese was the GM for 10 years. Yes, he started to lose support near the end due to drafting, but he was entrenched.
But to your point, I guess the question is, what do GM's on the hot seat do? Do they have to ride it out w/ their current coach, so if there's failure they both get canned?
And I guess the other question is, if you hire a really good coach - and you feel that the GM is not the answer - does the new GM always have to pick his own guy? What if he likes the current coach? Maybe the coach takes on a bigger role in personnel. Maybe a GM is hired that has connections to the coach.
I WAS WRONG.
I've said that before, and I'll say it again. Something that I imagine some of you have never said on this board and never will.
I still believe Gettleman is on the right track, and I do believe an experienced NFL Head Coach can pull more, much more, out of this roster assembled now, and what we add in the offseason.
I don't think anyone cares that you were wrong. In fact kudos to you for discerning what the Giants would do. What ails us is that DG thought the same as you did. That the official GM of the Giants hugely miscalculated the pulse of the team should be a huge concern to all of us. And part of the reason he shouldn't be gm anymore.
All for a player who is averaging 3.5 sacks/yr over his 5 years in the NFL. And he hasn’t had a sack in over a year.
Thank the football gods for allowing us to trade a 3rd and a 5th to get “control” over such a great player.
You come across as a pretty involved and knowledgeable fan. I m surprised you would judge Williams by his sack totals.
The guy constantly pushes the pocket recording many pressures. He is a solid run stopper and makes the edge rushers betters. One of Ximnes sacks last Monday was the direct result of Williams.
I laid the trade and hope they resign him. He is the best player in the defense right now
I don't view this as the massive setback, misjudging the roster that you do.
I see it as exactly what it was. Giving it a go with the pieces you had, it failed, and then you cut bait. Sometimes it really is that simple.
Where we diverged, was that people thought up the conspiracy of go all in on Eli, and that drove some people on here completely mad. Conspiracy theories about being mandated that Gettleman build the roster completely around Eli to win now at all costs, yada, yada, yada.
I just viewed it as putting the pieces that he had, on the field with the pieces he accumulated and replaced, and giving a look at what would happen. I see it as just an evaluation. That simple.
Well gee, isn’t that special. He gave it a go!
And missed by a mile for two seasons in a row.
A mile...
Quote:
the rebuild.
I don't view this as the massive setback, misjudging the roster that you do.
I see it as exactly what it was. Giving it a go with the pieces you had, it failed, and then you cut bait. Sometimes it really is that simple.
Where we diverged, was that people thought up the conspiracy of go all in on Eli, and that drove some people on here completely mad. Conspiracy theories about being mandated that Gettleman build the roster completely around Eli to win now at all costs, yada, yada, yada.
I just viewed it as putting the pieces that he had, on the field with the pieces he accumulated and replaced, and giving a look at what would happen. I see it as just an evaluation. That simple.
Well gee, isn’t that special. He gave it a go!
And missed by a mile for two seasons in a row.
A mile...
Nice, you rhymed...
BTW, I thought you said the DG apologists had gone silent... They seem to be out in great numbers lately.
You'd think it was the BBC not BBI.
After 30 years or so of paying attention to Giants' football, you learn to see through that bullshit. I really hope they weren't believing their own bullshit, anyway, because I didn't.
+1000 Great post.
-Selling hope is a huge, huge priority for this group in this market, with their fluff-filled town halls at the Beacon, etc.
-It certainly *is* bullshit if you can't back it up, and they surely have not.
This is not a good reason for me to keep him because the Giants can still pay for his medical expenses even after firing him
You come across as a pretty involved and knowledgeable fan. I m surprised you would judge Williams by his sack totals.
The guy constantly pushes the pocket recording many pressures. He is a solid run stopper and makes the edge rushers betters. One of Ximnes sacks last Monday was the direct result of Williams.
I laid the trade and hope they resign him. He is the best player in the defense right now
I don't think paying high dollars for DT is a wise investment. The DT market is usually fairly robust in both the college and pro ranks. So why overpay for a position that has become mostly commoditized? Unless you have an Aaron Donald type - prolific in the run and pass...And I don't think any reasonable person is confusing LW's skills with Donald.
Unfortunately, there are buyers in the NFL willing to invest big cap dollars in DTs that aren't in the same stratosphere as Donald. I'm afraid we're about to be one of those buyers and make the same mistake with LW. A player who is good, but not great or really consistent.
And the current market value is steep - at least $68M/4 yrs. Do you think that paying a player who has never had one great/good+ year is worth those cap dollars?
Quote:
You come across as a pretty involved and knowledgeable fan. I m surprised you would judge Williams by his sack totals.
The guy constantly pushes the pocket recording many pressures. He is a solid run stopper and makes the edge rushers betters. One of Ximnes sacks last Monday was the direct result of Williams.
I laid the trade and hope they resign him. He is the best player in the defense right now
I don't think paying high dollars for DT is a wise investment. The DT market is usually fairly robust in both the college and pro ranks. So why overpay for a position that has become mostly commoditized? Unless you have an Aaron Donald type - prolific in the run and pass...And I don't think any reasonable person is confusing LW's skills with Donald.
Unfortunately, there are buyers in the NFL willing to invest big cap dollars in DTs that aren't in the same stratosphere as Donald. I'm afraid we're about to be one of those buyers and make the same mistake with LW. A player who is good, but not great or really consistent.
And the current market value is steep - at least $68M/4 yrs. Do you think that paying a player who has never had one great/good+ year is worth those cap dollars?
You undervalue Williams. The top teams in the league are super run heavy and there will be copy cats. That’s how the cycle typically goes.
When the cycle was super pass heavy the league responded by loading up on pass rushers and corners. Rushing the passer will always be important but I think there’s more value now stopping the run than you realize.
Williams best days are ahead of him. Armstead/Thomas were considered underachievers in SF until this year. Same knock — good vs the run but underwhelming vs the pass. That is until they added dynamic edge players who ultimately allowed the entire DL to bloom.
Tell me you have a feeling this run defense could hold up if they had to play the Ravens. I doubt anyone would take that bet.
This has been a popular line from fans also that the giants and dg saying they felt the team could win or compete. The latter is true but isn’t a big deal in my view as every GM and HC will say this. It’s lip service. As for the claim that the giants made all these win now moves in 2018 I think that’s flat out false. They made one big move, solder and we were so desperate for OL help anyway. Other than that, I wouldn’t say the giants went on any sort of spending spree not by any stretch. How can we condemn the giants for going all in when the facts show this team is virtually young and cheap across the board? Isn’t that what really matters?
Quote:
DG also spent his first off-season making moves to compete immediately. If people thought the team was so close to the playoffs, why fire Reese to begin with?
This has been a popular line from fans also that the giants and dg saying they felt the team could win or compete. The latter is true but isn’t a big deal in my view as every GM and HC will say this. It’s lip service. As for the claim that the giants made all these win now moves in 2018 I think that’s flat out false. They made one big move, solder and we were so desperate for OL help anyway. Other than that, I wouldn’t say the giants went on any sort of spending spree not by any stretch. How can we condemn the giants for going all in when the facts show this team is virtually young and cheap across the board? Isn’t that what really matters?
You might want to re-educate yourself on the number moves, the amount of future guaranteed money, and dead money Gettleman transacted in 2018. The facts do not align with the assertion Solder was the only big move.
Quote:
DG also spent his first off-season making moves to compete immediately. If people thought the team was so close to the playoffs, why fire Reese to begin with?
This has been a popular line from fans also that the giants and dg saying they felt the team could win or compete. The latter is true but isn’t a big deal in my view as every GM and HC will say this. It’s lip service. As for the claim that the giants made all these win now moves in 2018 I think that’s flat out false. They made one big move, solder and we were so desperate for OL help anyway. Other than that, I wouldn’t say the giants went on any sort of spending spree not by any stretch. How can we condemn the giants for going all in when the facts show this team is virtually young and cheap across the board? Isn’t that what really matters?
They made OBJ the highest paid WR in the league