1.) He walked into a complete shit mess from Reese’s years of awful drafting and handing out massive contracts to unworthy players. This is at least a 3-4 year reclamation project (and we are just wrapping up year 2).
2.) He has had two drafts that at this stage look like the best we have had in several years. Barkley is a beast (the high ankle sprain ruined 2019), and Jones has shown flashes which from what I have seen are far brighter than anything Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold have displayed. Rosen looks like he is on his way out of the league. Drafting guys like Slayton, Connelly, etc. in late rounds. Reese and Ross couldn’t draft anyone decent past round 2.
3.) Trading OBJ and Vernon for what he got is amazing. OBJ hurt again, looking to leave Cleveland, and Vernon injured most of the year again as well.
4.) He amassed tons of picks, drafted a bunch of promising players and now we have a ton of cap room to play with which we haven’t had in years.
I understand the hate over some of his bad FA pickups like Stewart, Omameh, Solder, etc. But you have to field a team and sometimes you have to take a chance on older vets to give the semblance of trying to field a competitive ball club when your team is clearly not ready for prime time.
Give him one more year and let’s see how we do. I knew we were looking at a season of no more than 4-5 wins the minute they put a rookie QB in. If we don’t win at least 7-8 next year, then it’s time to consider a GM change.
As for Shurmur, I can’t stand head coaches who call plays. We’re competitive every week and can’t close. No issue with a coaching change.
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We delude ourselves into calling it improvement.
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Gettleman stays on?
We delude ourselves into calling it improvement.
Depending on how the team looks on the field I would call that improvement. Especially with a 2nd year QB at the helm. Remember when at least half the fans were ready to run Eli out of town in his second and third year for that matter.
The Giants were starting from a very low point with very little talent, could things have worked out better, sure, but there wasn't going to be any Super Bowl trips in those years. You can't keep switching GMs and plans every two years because you can't truly judge what they've done. Saying he screwed up by singing a backup RB who was supposed to be a steady hand in the locker room isn't enough of a reason to completely switch gears again.
The Giants were starting from a very low point with very little talent, could things have worked out better, sure, but there wasn't going to be any Super Bowl trips in those years. You can't keep switching GMs and plans every two years because you can't truly judge what they've done. Saying he screwed up by singing a backup RB who was supposed to be a steady hand in the locker room isn't enough of a reason to completely switch gears again.
Thank you, well said. Anyone expecting this team to be competitive at this point is delusional. When you overhaul a roster the way the Giants are right now, especially a youth based overhaul, it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to turn things around. Things will get better.
I have seen Giants teams look way worse in recent years. This week was another example of us having the lead and blowing it in the second half.
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Gettleman stays on?
We delude ourselves into calling it improvement.
If the young players especially Jones are a main reason for that and it seems like the OL and or the D is making strides how could you not call that improvement?
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We have the 4th worst point differential in football and have 2 wins. Can't make this shit up.
I have seen Giants teams look way worse in recent years. This week was another example of us having the lead and blowing it in the second half.
Another example? I’m pretty sure last week was the only game this year where we lost a lead.
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With the right series of decisions a team can turn things around pretty quickly in this league. I really believe we have a FEW good pieces (including our QB, which is important) and that's why I'm against blowing the whole thing up entirely. But the right new coaching staff would be needed for sure, a solid 2020 draft, and smart/savvy use of the relatively large amount of cap space we are about to have.
With all those things I would say: the Redskins (twice), Cardinals, Browns, Falcons/Panthers, Lions, and Bengals are all beatable. The Cowboys and Eagles both suck (we almost just beat the Eagles) and even just achieving mediocrity by next year we could split with both of them. That right there is 9 wins. Of course I assume in reality, if we WERE to go 9-7, it would likely include us losing to a couple of those lesser teams, and we'd have to steal a couple from the better teams- maybe the Steelers and Rams).
The only problem is: John Mara will be the head of the snake making these decisions I just mentioned and that is one dumb ass snake. A first-class organization could get this team to 8-8 or 9-7(and by first-class I mean quality-wise, not as in "classy" as so many posters like to brag about the Giants org. being). The problem is this is not a first-class organization anymore, and John Mara and Steve Tisch are the reasons for that and they are not leaving any time soon.
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In comment 14715287 Mike from SI said:
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We have the 4th worst point differential in football and have 2 wins. Can't make this shit up.
I have seen Giants teams look way worse in recent years. This week was another example of us having the lead and blowing it in the second half.
Another example? I’m pretty sure last week was the only game this year where we lost a lead.
Sorry, I should say “being in the game”, not necessarily having the lead. Point is it’s not like we have been getting blown out every week, especially after the first three quarters of the game. This team seems to fall flat on its face in the fourth quarter which is an indictment on 1.) youth and 2.) coaching.
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In comment 14715290 eric2425ny said:
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In comment 14715287 Mike from SI said:
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We have the 4th worst point differential in football and have 2 wins. Can't make this shit up.
I have seen Giants teams look way worse in recent years. This week was another example of us having the lead and blowing it in the second half.
Another example? I’m pretty sure last week was the only game this year where we lost a lead.
Sorry, I should say “being in the game”, not necessarily having the lead. Point is it’s not like we have been getting blown out every week, especially after the first three quarters of the game. This team seems to fall flat on its face in the fourth quarter which is an indictment on 1.) youth and 2.) coaching.
I'd say not getting blown out every single week (i.e. being "in the game" for the first half or 3 quarters) is a pretty low standard for a professional football team. This is supposed to be the league of parity, and you can lose every game by just 1 or 2 touchdowns and even if it feels like you're "close", you're really not. Like Parcells would say: you are what you're record says you are, and we're 2-11 right now.
The comparison I would make is that I have been a Vanderbilt football fan for the last 10 years, and they are the joke of the SEC. But over the years I've seen so many games where they are playing a top 10 ranked Alabama or LSU team and they are literally right in the game (and sometimes even leading) after the first half. It will feel like we're so "close" to these other teams, but the fact is we are not, and by the 4th quarter it becomes very clear that the first part of the game was a mirage. The opposing team may have just come out tight or possibly didn't take us seriously, and then as soon as they wake up they blow the hinges off our team. Simply appearing to be "competitive" for part of a game is not enough to measure where you are as a football team. Carl Banks said it best: "it's like they're always just a few plays away... from being a few plays away."
I know this post sounds contrary to the post I just made, but in reality I do also believe that things can turn around very quickly in this league. Just because we have a long way to go at this time from being a championship-caliber team, I don't think in today's NFL anyone should ever be "...4 years away" from being good" (as your post mentioned). 4 years? By that time the rookie contracts you first drafted are expiring and you're going to end up in a cycle of crappiness. We've seen it from plenty of teams around the league: a bottom-rung team can go from competitive in year 1 of rebuild, to playoffs in year 2, to super bowl contenders in year 3. It's very possible, it just takes the right brains in the room.
I actually do, overall, like Gettleman's drafts. Last year, Saquon at #2 was the right pick. Others would've taken a QB, and he waited with Eli having 2 seasons in front of him under contract.
Will Hernandez I was shouting from the rooftop. My ideal scenario was Saquon-Hernandez first and second round, and was over the moon when it happened.
BJ Hill was a solid pick later, and Lo Carter was a fine pick I suppose although there were other players I liked more, like Fred Warner of BYU who has turned into a fine linebacker for the 49ers.
What I take issue with is it seems for the good decisions he makes, there are real headscratchers. You could've gotten a real competitor with your 4th rounder, and they used it on Kyle Lauletta. It just wasn't necessary. And if you pick Lauletta to be a development QB, and you make that draft investment, and a year later he's not on the team.
Let's move on to the 2019 draft. I would not have taken Jones at #6. I thought he was an early 2nd round talent. I would've taken Josh Allen. I wasn't really in love with these QBs this year. I probably would've used a 3rd on Ryan Finley, so what do I know (and he would've been there). Gettleman took Ximines with that pick, which is fine. I liked the Lawrence pick at 17. But then the trade up for Baker, it was so nonsensical to me. They only moved up 7 spots. 7 spots for a position group that still had several great prospects still on the board. Mainly Byron Murphy and Rock Ya-Sin. To be fair, both of THOSE players were gone before the 37th pick, but I thought that with the extra picks the Giants had, he could've moved up for an extra 2nd before the big talent drop-off, rather than give up so much just to get this particular DB.
That said, I'm still bullish on all three of his first rounders, and you have to like the later picks like Love, Connelly, Slayton, and Ballentine. I still would've just waited on the franchise QB until next year, or this upcoming draft, where Burrow, Herbert, Fromm, Tua...all these guys with talent are coming out. But I really won't go after DG for that draft to hard.
Now, free agency...I didn't get the Golden Tate signing. And while he's played well, I still don't get it. He's older, he's not a lot different than Shepard in that they are slot guys.
Going back to 2018, I think his free agency period was a disaster. And not because of Solder, who I thought he had no choice to sign. The Giants had Ereck Flowers or Chad Wheeler as your LTs for 2018. So if you're DG, what do you do? Solder was a good LT that hit the market, really the only credible LT solution on the market, and you had to overpay to get him. No problem with the Solder signing. I don't even have a problem with the Omameh signing. If there's a logical reason to do it, do it. If you can justify it, go for it. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. But the Jonathan Stewart signing was completely absurd. A three year deal for Kareem Martin. I know it was only $15 million, but why? The Stewart signing was nuts.
And you jettisoned some guys early that actually were decent projects, like Chad Wheeler. Wheeler was young, and he actually has LT feet. Kennard, B.J. Goodson, Richburg. We can argue if it made sense to keep these guys, or how good they really were, but in some of their cases, they could've easily been retained for not much money, and you're spending $6.8 mil on Jonathan Stewart. Any UDFA RB would've been fine. Boston Scott looked pretty good the other night.
Then came the Leonard Williams trade. At first, I was praising DG...expecting in the next few days after the trade an extension would be formally announced. Then, I thought, maybe it'll take a week to iron out the finishing touches. Now, I realize DG doesn't have any inside track on LW. We could've just paid him the top dollar he's going to get from somebody in free agency after this season, and still had a 3rd rounder, which would've been a top 70 overall pick, in the 2020 draft, and we lose a what, 4th or 5th round pick in 2021 on top of it? Just to watch someone outbid us for LW? Or even if we keep him...why not just sign him in free agency. Does anybody think, at this point, Leonard Williams isn't going to hit free agency at the first opportunity? I guess DG is going to franchise tag him. But still, a pending free agent, there's no extension worked out, and you traded premium draft capital...a top 70 pick plus.
For a rebuilding team like the Giants, top 100 picks are the lifeblood of your rebuild.
I don't think DG has managed resources well. I think he's made some very good draft picks, but at this point I don't know what type of team DG thinks he has. He can't keep mismanaging these resources and situations like he has.
This offseason, with what should be the #2 pick, DG should be looking to get a haul in a trade down. The team needs far too much talent that one player like Chase Young can provide. But I could see DG even trading up a spot to still take Young. As nuts as it sounds.
I actually do, overall, like Gettleman's drafts. Last year, Saquon at #2 was the right pick. Others would've taken a QB, and he waited with Eli having 2 seasons in front of him under contract.
Will Hernandez I was shouting from the rooftop. My ideal scenario was Saquon-Hernandez first and second round, and was over the moon when it happened.
BJ Hill was a solid pick later, and Lo Carter was a fine pick I suppose although there were other players I liked more, like Fred Warner of BYU who has turned into a fine linebacker for the 49ers.
What I take issue with is it seems for the good decisions he makes, there are real headscratchers. You could've gotten a real competitor with your 4th rounder, and they used it on Kyle Lauletta. It just wasn't necessary. And if you pick Lauletta to be a development QB, and you make that draft investment, and a year later he's not on the team.
Let's move on to the 2019 draft. I would not have taken Jones at #6. I thought he was an early 2nd round talent. I would've taken Josh Allen. I wasn't really in love with these QBs this year. I probably would've used a 3rd on Ryan Finley, so what do I know (and he would've been there). Gettleman took Ximines with that pick, which is fine. I liked the Lawrence pick at 17. But then the trade up for Baker, it was so nonsensical to me. They only moved up 7 spots. 7 spots for a position group that still had several great prospects still on the board. Mainly Byron Murphy and Rock Ya-Sin. To be fair, both of THOSE players were gone before the 37th pick, but I thought that with the extra picks the Giants had, he could've moved up for an extra 2nd before the big talent drop-off, rather than give up so much just to get this particular DB.
That said, I'm still bullish on all three of his first rounders, and you have to like the later picks like Love, Connelly, Slayton, and Ballentine. I still would've just waited on the franchise QB until next year, or this upcoming draft, where Burrow, Herbert, Fromm, Tua...all these guys with talent are coming out. But I really won't go after DG for that draft to hard.
Now, free agency...I didn't get the Golden Tate signing. And while he's played well, I still don't get it. He's older, he's not a lot different than Shepard in that they are slot guys.
Going back to 2018, I think his free agency period was a disaster. And not because of Solder, who I thought he had no choice to sign. The Giants had Ereck Flowers or Chad Wheeler as your LTs for 2018. So if you're DG, what do you do? Solder was a good LT that hit the market, really the only credible LT solution on the market, and you had to overpay to get him. No problem with the Solder signing. I don't even have a problem with the Omameh signing. If there's a logical reason to do it, do it. If you can justify it, go for it. Sometimes it just doesn't work out. But the Jonathan Stewart signing was completely absurd. A three year deal for Kareem Martin. I know it was only $15 million, but why? The Stewart signing was nuts.
And you jettisoned some guys early that actually were decent projects, like Chad Wheeler. Wheeler was young, and he actually has LT feet. Kennard, B.J. Goodson, Richburg. We can argue if it made sense to keep these guys, or how good they really were, but in some of their cases, they could've easily been retained for not much money, and you're spending $6.8 mil on Jonathan Stewart. Any UDFA RB would've been fine. Boston Scott looked pretty good the other night.
Then came the Leonard Williams trade. At first, I was praising DG...expecting in the next few days after the trade an extension would be formally announced. Then, I thought, maybe it'll take a week to iron out the finishing touches. Now, I realize DG doesn't have any inside track on LW. We could've just paid him the top dollar he's going to get from somebody in free agency after this season, and still had a 3rd rounder, which would've been a top 70 overall pick, in the 2020 draft, and we lose a what, 4th or 5th round pick in 2021 on top of it? Just to watch someone outbid us for LW? Or even if we keep him...why not just sign him in free agency. Does anybody think, at this point, Leonard Williams isn't going to hit free agency at the first opportunity? I guess DG is going to franchise tag him. But still, a pending free agent, there's no extension worked out, and you traded premium draft capital...a top 70 pick plus.
For a rebuilding team like the Giants, top 100 picks are the lifeblood of your rebuild.
I don't think DG has managed resources well. I think he's made some very good draft picks, but at this point I don't know what type of team DG thinks he has. He can't keep mismanaging these resources and situations like he has.
This offseason, with what should be the #2 pick, DG should be looking to get a haul in a trade down. The team needs far too much talent that one player like Chase Young can provide. But I could see DG even trading up a spot to still take Young. As nuts as it sounds.
Good post, while I think Gettleman deserves another year I agree that some of his non draft moves have been rough. The Williams trade being the oddest as it seems like we traded away picks for no reason.
This year was get a new QB to groom while working on plan A for Eli. When we went 0-2 and it was clear playoffs were not in the picture most likely, then they turned to the future.
You could also argue he’s made 1 big error, getting Shurmur. And with better coaching we’d see more from the guys he brought in. But that’s speculation and doesn’t alleviate the responsibility on bringing in Pat.
2. The “why trade picks instead of signing him in the off -season” is one of the oddest takes here:
a. He was being shopped to other teams, which means they control him in the off-season.
b. The same people saying the Giants have “average” cap space are the same ones saying they shouldn’t have traded. If they have “average” space, wouldn’t it make sense to control his rights so he can’t just shop himself to the highest bidder?
3. The 49ers made the same play for Dee Ford. The Seahawks did it with Clowney. This is becoming the new norm to get the inside track on the guys you want.
4. He’s a good player with the potential to really thrive in a good scheme with the right complimentary pieces. He’s good vs the run. He’s disruptive vs the pass. He creates opportunities for those around him to make plays. He will be a core player on a defensive front that’s starting to come together and really only needs a little splash off the edge.
I only see the trade being bad if they don’t re-sign him.
All for a player who is averaging 3.5 sacks/yr over his 5 years in the NFL. And he hasn’t had a sack in over a year.
Thank the football gods for allowing us to trade a 3rd and a 5th to get “control” over such a great player.
This year was get a new QB to groom while working on plan A for Eli. When we went 0-2 and it was clear playoffs were not in the picture most likely, then they turned to the future.
You could also argue he’s made 1 big error, getting Shurmur. And with better coaching we’d see more from the guys he brought in. But that’s speculation and doesn’t alleviate the responsibility on bringing in Pat.
I don't agree with this. I think all the "win with Eli" stuff was just the stuff you have to say to keep the fans interested and buying tickets. They knew they had to begin THE REBUILD. They knew Eli was 38 years old. They knew he had regressed. I don't think anyone was expecting miracles. All the stuff they said about winning...that's just what every front office is going to say. After 30 years or so of paying attention to Giants' football, you learn to see through that bullshit. I really hope they weren't believing their own bullshit, anyway, because I didn't.
If DG would've loved Darnold, for example, and Saquon didn't exist, I think he would've taken him.
And the two biggest things he needed to fix when he got here were the OL and the coaching staff. Not only hasn't he fixed them, he hasn't improved them at all. Instead he has replaced the whole roster with younger guys who are, over all, about the same talent level as those they replaced. He could have replaced the players in a far more orderly fashion.
And what I can't get over is what he said about his interview with Shurmur: "He's a mature professional." The current team is what you get when you value demeanor over talent.
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If the 2018 & 2019 drafts turn out well than how were the years wasted? People freak out over Omaneh and Stewart, they were low to mid dollar signings that didn't work, all teams have these. Solder was an above average player when he was signed and played a position of great need.
The Giants were starting from a very low point with very little talent, could things have worked out better, sure, but there wasn't going to be any Super Bowl trips in those years. You can't keep switching GMs and plans every two years because you can't truly judge what they've done. Saying he screwed up by singing a backup RB who was supposed to be a steady hand in the locker room isn't enough of a reason to completely switch gears again.
Thank you, well said. Anyone expecting this team to be competitive at this point is delusional. When you overhaul a roster the way the Giants are right now, especially a youth based overhaul, it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to turn things around. Things will get better.
The feeling I get from reading the many Gettleman posts are that the vast majority of anti-Gettleman guys (I'm one of them) had absolutely no expectation that we would be competing for a playoff spot this season or last. However, we would have expected some improvement.
The fact that personnel mastermind Dave Gettleman took over a 3 win team and in two years, turned it into a possible 2 win team, is evidence enough that we've wasted the last two years. There have been very few, if any, signs of improvement from this team. It's quite evident that the Giants are regarded as anywhere from the worst to the 3rd worst ream in the league. It is an absolute embarrassment.
So we've come from a 3 win team and the 2nd overall draft pick to a possible 2 win team and the #1 overall draft pick. If that's not wasting two years, I don't know what is.
How many of you pro-Gettleman guys would have signed on for this two years ago? I'd wager not one of you. It's mind boggling how anyone can continue to support him. He should be fired.
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Nfl doesn’t work like that. This isn’t the nba or mlb. It’s a year to year league.
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If the 2018 & 2019 drafts turn out well than how were the years wasted? People freak out over Omaneh and Stewart, they were low to mid dollar signings that didn't work, all teams have these. Solder was an above average player when he was signed and played a position of great need.
The Giants were starting from a very low point with very little talent, could things have worked out better, sure, but there wasn't going to be any Super Bowl trips in those years. You can't keep switching GMs and plans every two years because you can't truly judge what they've done. Saying he screwed up by singing a backup RB who was supposed to be a steady hand in the locker room isn't enough of a reason to completely switch gears again.
Thank you, well said. Anyone expecting this team to be competitive at this point is delusional. When you overhaul a roster the way the Giants are right now, especially a youth based overhaul, it’s going to take a hell of a lot longer than 2 years to turn things around. Things will get better.
You know what else makes it take longer than two years?
When you spend the first year in denial about being a team in need of a rebuild, so you sign free agents as though you're a playoff contender and draft a RB #2 overall, and then when that blows up in your face, you sell veterans at pennies on the dollar and spend your second year cleaning up your own self-imposed cap mess from your misevaluation of the roster the year before.
We're heading into year three of a supposed rebuild and we're already about a year and a half behind schedule. If not for Jones, I'd call it a full two years behind schedule, but having the future QB is a central element of the rebuild and I don't want to be disingenuous in my criticism.
To say that it takes longer than two years? That may be true, independent of other information. But if you can't see that Gettleman has made errors that have already made this take longer than it should have, you're either not paying attention, or you're being a serious homer.
2. Some of the assistant and unit coaches seem to be orders of magnitude less experienced and proven and specifically targetted than those on winning teams. Is this about money, about coaching, about front office? How did those hires go down and what's the context?
I am really on the fence about whether to fire him or not. What I need to know BEFORE agreeing that he should be fired is WHO we plan to replace him with.
In all of these fire Gettleman threads (or threads that turn into that), rarely do I see anyone coming up with an alternative to DG who makes me say..."yeah, THAT guy will come in here and turn our roster around".
So, WHO are we hiring to replace him?
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Good luck finding 7-8 wins in it
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Nfl doesn’t work like that. This isn’t the nba or mlb. It’s a year to year league.
For most teams, you are probably right. With the current state of ineptitude within the NYG, it does not apply. Last December, I posted the 2019 opponents and said the NYG probably go 5-11. I held that all spring and summer. We are 2-11 and really should be 1-12. The above list? Even if Mara did everything right (clean house and make the right hires; NOT Rivera or Garrett) and the organization has an A+ offseason, the odds of them making a 5-6 game improvement just to get to mediocre aren’t good. Forget about getting to 9/10 wins and the playoffs. We are still maybe 2 years away (if we can DG). Right now, my guess is that schedule yields 5 or 6 wins (again, if we can DG). If we keep him, who knows what further damage he may inflict on the roster.
People are being blinded by poor preparation and coaching into believing that we lack talent.
People are being blinded by poor preparation and coaching into believing that we lack talent.
No one disagreed with his FA moves at the time? Really?
Hiring DG was ownership's attempt to roll back time and change their mind's on the Reese hire. There was a reason they didn't choose DG to begin with. They should have remembered that.
The NFL has changed significantly. You either recognize that and you change with it or you don't and your teams are consistent losers. Which boat do you think Mara and Tisch are in??
People are being blinded by poor preparation and coaching into believing that we lack talent.
This is just an absurd comment. How do you know these were great drafts? A bunch of unproven guys that in total have not contributed to the improvement of a single unit on the team. Maybe some of these guys will be players, but they are just a bunch of question marks at this point. You are substituting hope and faith for objective analysis. I know football requires 22 players, but I would think that if the giants had added 10+ above-average nfl players over the last two seasons as some of you are claiming they’ve done (including at qb) that would have resulted in better than 2-14.
People are being blinded by poor preparation and coaching into believing that we lack talent.
I am pretty sure I disagree with each of these sentences.
It also means Abrams would keep his current role, which is ok because I don’t see how Abrams is qualified to be theGiants GM.
I don’t mean to say that excuses Gettleman. The contracts given to Solder, Martin and Stewart were bad decisions at the time (excluding Omameh, which I think was a surprise because it was just so much worse than anyone could have expected), but he faced a bad situation. That needs to be acknowledged.
Some people reduced that to 'well, the owners are going to pick someone they're comfortable and familiar with and trust' - it's not just that relationship, but the ones he developed over the course of more than a decade with the scouting department.
The talent evaluation apparatus of this team is broken. Is it Chris Mara? The scouts? Who knows. Bringing in a guy that was close to them to evaluate something that had been working and started sputtering 7 years earlier was a bad idea, and continues to be a bad idea.
Someone from the outside needs to be brought in. Someone without a prior working relationship to the relevant parties. Someone who can with some independence review and report on how effectively different people and processes within the org are working, and then recommend what changes need to be made. If that includes dismissing Gettleman, so be it.
Hiring DG was ownership's attempt to roll back time and change their mind's on the Reese hire. There was a reason they didn't choose DG to begin with. They should have remembered that.
The NFL has changed significantly. You either recognize that and you change with it or you don't and your teams are consistent losers. Which boat do you think Mara and Tisch are in??
I see this comment a lot... the NFL has changed. How? Be specific? What has changed? Most of the time this is just a knock on DG's age.
All for a player who is averaging 3.5 sacks/yr over his 5 years in the NFL. And he hasn’t had a sack in over a year.
Thank the football gods for allowing us to trade a 3rd and a 5th to get “control” over such a great player.
And he is in a contract year!!!! What happens when he gets his $$$??