1.) He walked into a complete shit mess from Reese’s years of awful drafting and handing out massive contracts to unworthy players. This is at least a 3-4 year reclamation project (and we are just wrapping up year 2).
2.) He has had two drafts that at this stage look like the best we have had in several years. Barkley is a beast (the high ankle sprain ruined 2019), and Jones has shown flashes which from what I have seen are far brighter than anything Mayfield, Rosen, and Darnold have displayed. Rosen looks like he is on his way out of the league. Drafting guys like Slayton, Connelly, etc. in late rounds. Reese and Ross couldn’t draft anyone decent past round 2.
3.) Trading OBJ and Vernon for what he got is amazing. OBJ hurt again, looking to leave Cleveland, and Vernon injured most of the year again as well.
4.) He amassed tons of picks, drafted a bunch of promising players and now we have a ton of cap room to play with which we haven’t had in years.
I understand the hate over some of his bad FA pickups like Stewart, Omameh, Solder, etc. But you have to field a team and sometimes you have to take a chance on older vets to give the semblance of trying to field a competitive ball club when your team is clearly not ready for prime time.
Give him one more year and let’s see how we do. I knew we were looking at a season of no more than 4-5 wins the minute they put a rookie QB in. If we don’t win at least 7-8 next year, then it’s time to consider a GM change.
As for Shurmur, I can’t stand head coaches who call plays. We’re competitive every week and can’t close. No issue with a coaching change.
The process and decision making was bad when he didn't take 6th pick and 3 2nd rounders for Barkley. By that stage in the off-season he should have known that he didn't like any of the QBs and therefore the value of barkley was never going to match #6 + high 2nd and then 2 more second round picks..
Then you look at guys like stewart.. no one even wanted to sign this guy.. he was brought in for culture, at that stage every GM should have known that he couldn't play.. yet we couldn't get him on a vet minimum.. When your GM cannot convince his guys (who also have no other options) to take league minimum you know something is flawed.. add to it the way he has handled WR.. extending Shepard and paying good $$ for Tate.. very very similar WR.. one or the other would be good.. putting too many resources into the same thing while neglecting others is just bad process..
Then you look at trading for Ogletree.. Leonard Williams trade after the fact that we've already spent a 1st,2nd and a high 3rd on DT over the last 3 years.. he then adds another DT who cannot get after the QB.. Prior to LW we were already top 7 in run defense in terms of YPC..
Then to make some salary cap room for this year he move salary to bonus for Solder and has done that with Ogletree in the past as well.. If the players are not performing why are we increasing their future dead cap hits? He should have cut Ellison at the beginning of the year to save some cap room.. there was really no use for him and he was well under-performing his contract..
Finally he should have cut Eli to make room to get more OL FA.. we desperately needed them if for nothing else then depth..
Most of BBI was clamoring for a complete rebuild and that's what we got. Now everyone is forgetting that the tear down phase of the process is painful.
Now - that isn't to say he has been good. He has bungled the OL which was supposed to be his strength. We don't have a single linebacker that is any good at football except for a 5th round rookie who tore his knee. And if he had final say on the Shurmur hire, he has been an utter disaster.
All that being said, he has done a good job of clearing the deck for 2020 which always seemed to be the plan, especially with shedding salary. There's a good amount of DL and LB talent out there in free agency. Let's make some smart moves, draft another 3-4 good players, and hire a good fucking coach to get in here and get this thing moving.
What are you going to say if team is 8-8 next year and young players play well and are the clear reason for the improvement?
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If you really have to ask that question then responding to you is only a further waste of time...
What are you going to say if team is 8-8 next year and young players play well and are the clear reason for the improvement?
When you start as a GM of a team that was 3-13 and have the 2nd pick in a draft with high potential QBs.. you are expected to improve on that 3-13 record.. in 2 years we are actually a worse team now.. how many years of top 6 picks do you need before you are expected to win more than 5 games?
You can field a team and not give out enormous contracts.
This thread is ridiculous.
And here’s what we do know. The Head Coach is one of the worst Head Coaches in NFL history by his record. We thought his Cleveland record was explainable and as it turns out - he has been worse then his time in Cleveland and everything that was happening in Cleveland is happening here and worse.
Fire Shurmur and his entire coaching staff and hire someone new at HC. Start there.
Barkley has been a replacement level back this year, when you take off the rose colored glasses. Whether that’s attributed to injury, poor oline play, rookie play of DJ, it’s all reasons why RB is not a position worth a major investment, especially with the 2nd overall pick. Now he’s heading into year 3 and not too far off from either a material allocation of cap space to his contract or letting him walk. In either case it hampers a rebuild, so how exact was he a benefit to the rebuild?
Hernandez has regressed and is part of severe oline issue. Carter has been non existent. The rest aren’t even worth mentioning. So where is the warm and fuzzy feelings about this draft?
If we win 2 games this year what do you think would be a realistic goal would be for next year? Superbowl or bust? DG gets fired if we don't win it all?
Again there he took over a 2-14 team and mde them into a 10 win team with a QB who was added for only a 2nd rounder.. then his QB gets injured in a season ending injury early in the season and they had other major injuries (much worse then what the Giants have seen in DG's time) and because of that he has a bad season but even then he wins more games than the 2-14 record he inherited.. He got a pass because of the major injuries..
Giants don't have that this year.. Jones and Eli played as they were supposed to until last week..
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that John Lynch was hired in 2017. The first 2 years there, the 49ers were downright terrible, and nobody was calling for Lynch to be fired because he was left with an absolutely horrific roster and they had a plan in place.
Again there he took over a 2-14 team and mde them into a 10 win team with a QB who was added for only a 2nd rounder.. then his QB gets injured in a season ending injury early in the season and they had other major injuries (much worse then what the Giants have seen in DG's time) and because of that he has a bad season but even then he wins more games than the 2-14 record he inherited.. He got a pass because of the major injuries..
Giants don't have that this year.. Jones and Eli played as they were supposed to until last week..
meant to say a 6 win team.. not 10..
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have become. This guy will be a hero if he manages the org to 8-8 next season.
If we win 2 games this year what do you think would be a realistic goal would be for next year? Superbowl or bust? DG gets fired if we don't win it all?
I don’t think DG is capable of an A+ offseason, but if he did somehow have that, the ceiling next year is probably 6-10. A 3 or 4 game improvement off 3-13 or 2-14 is reasonable to expect. In fact, it’s probably linear with a team on the ascent. A typical DG offseason littered with shit FA’s and trades and an OK draft probably tops us out at 4-12 or 5-11.
Nobody is shitting on Shurmer because we believe it’s a slam dunk he’s toast. We are arguing that the entire slate needs to be blown out.
I disagree we’d be in the hunt for the division too.
I was on the fence with DG and some good points made from many posts. But he has ultimate responsibility for making us competitive which we have seen no improvement and gone backwards. It rolls up to him like any structure.
Ownership sucks and Mara is a big problem. I can only hope Tisch is sick of his nepotism with Chris Mara and they bring in an outsider to run all football operations. Buck stops with them....
Why he could be fired:
1. He owns the turnaround or lack thereof. Simple. We have gotten worse and the record shows it since he came onboard. You are what your record is
2. Blame coaching? He approved the grown up in the room..Shurmur and his staff. Betcher is a mirage...he kept the engine running at Arizona and doesn;t know how to coach
3. Hog Molly #1. Cant rebuild in a day but he has totally whiffed 100% on this #1 focus. In fact, I would say we have regressed and are paying top dollar for it (see Solder)
4. Williams trade. Its been blown up here enough. Anyone who negotiates for a liviing knows how bad this was and many are flippant about a 3rd rounder blah blah blah...but draft capital vs value (12-15M) vs production does not balance on this equation.
5. 2018 draft. Why is this such a great draft for him? Hernandez sucks and has gone backwards as many point out how good he is??? Maybe its coaching but right now he looks like a bad move. I won't get into SB as I love the kid but there was an opportunity to build an OL and get picks in moving down..enough said. 2018 shaping up to be a "C" draft
6. Free agency- total misses. Nothing I can point to that even feels good. He should not be trusted with 70M+
We don't need 90 year old consultants recommending Dinosaurs who are ready to retire as our GMs. Time to change things up
Barry Switzer called, he said his SB ring disagrees with your post.
No one expected a contender this year, but a complete regression in all aspects is unacceptable. The team needs new leadership and this GM will rightfully be fired after the season ends.
The idea of Gettleman with a top 3 pick and $70M in cap room terrifies he. Keeping Gettleman for another year could set this franchise back for years and leave a whole new mess for the next GM. Let's bring in a smart GM while we have a relatively clean slate to work with.
He apparently is a victim of having been misled by Pat Shurmur as to his abilities as a coach.
His firing in Carolina was not a reflection of his job performance and can be blamed on a bad owner.
His high, high draft choice in 2018 and 2 of the 3 in in 2019 look to be keepers.
He is better than Reese.
He rebuilt the OL by spending alot of money to bring in all new names and though it did not pan out you have got to give him credit for getting rid of Flowers who we all hated.
He cannot be blamed for the bad free agent moves, or the missed draft choices because everyone misses some.
The LW trade was actually a brilliant move and it only cost a very high 3rd round draft choice and possibly a 4th, but then again looking at how those have been used by DG he probably did better than he would have in the draft.
He cleaned out the bad attitudes from the lockerroom so that we can lose with a nicer, happier group of guys.
He knows how to dance with the media when he talks to them and he has a "plan" for rebuilding the Giants--a very flexible plan that will not fail because it can be constantly adjusted to account for every move and every failed decision.
Keep him please.
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the only person responsible for the Giants record is Dave Gettleman. I'd argue coaching in the NFL is way, way, way more important than picking players. Sure, you have to have good players. But we have Pat Shurmur is our head coach, one of the single worst football coaches in NFL history. Why is Gettleman the only one getting blame here? If we had even a decent coach, this team would probably be .500 right now and in the hunt for the division.
Barry Switzer called, he said his SB ring disagrees with your post.
Barry Switzer wasn't a good coach? His three college football national championship rings, and one of the highest winning percentages in college football history disagrees with your post.
Barry Switzer wasn't a good coach? His three college football national championship rings, and one of the highest winning percentages in college football history disagrees with your post.
Barry Switzer was not a good NFL head coach. There is video of Troy Aikman saying that. Even sideline video of him saying the coach has no balls and is worthless.
Funny this is coming up now because I saw this video less than one week ago
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Barry Switzer wasn't a good coach? His three college football national championship rings, and one of the highest winning percentages in college football history disagrees with your post.
Barry Switzer was not a good NFL head coach. There is video of Troy Aikman saying that. Even sideline video of him saying the coach has no balls and is worthless.
Funny this is coming up now because I saw this video less than one week ago
Barry Switzer coached college football for 16 years, won 3 championships, and had one of the highest winning percentages (still) of all time.
He coached 3 seasons in the NFL, went 12-4 the first, 12-4 the second and won a Superbowl, and then 6-10 and was fired.
Are you equating Pat Shurmur to Barry Switzer? Because I'm thinking that's a pretty poor comparison.
Secondly, in what universe are we even trying to compare the 1994 Cowboys roster to the 2017 Giants roster?
The point was that the NFL being so extremely dependent on coaching and less on talent is a myth. Bad coaches have won with lesser talent.
You've got a shit roster and a shit coach, and the net result is, well, shit.
The point was that the NFL being so extremely dependent on coaching and less on talent is a myth. Bad coaches have won with lesser talent.
You've got a shit roster and a shit coach, and the net result is, well, shit.
Spurrier too. You would want him badly right now if you didn't know what you know about his jump the NFL.
Spurrier and Chip Kelly should be cautionary tales. I guess Switzer too if that's what you think.
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have become. This guy will be a hero if he manages the org to 8-8 next season.
If we win 2 games this year what do you think would be a realistic goal would be for next year? Superbowl or bust? DG gets fired if we don't win it all?
Exactly why he should be fired right now. He was part of the coaching search and roster procurement that got us where we are today, which is a complete and utter laughing stock. He looked at the roster 2 years ago and thought he could leverage what little resources where available to win in the short term with Eli while also righting Reese's wrongs and turning the roster over.
The approach was either his idea or he agreed to take the role and go along with what ownership was prescribing. It was a tremendously bad assessment in either case, and I don't see why you give him another bite at the apple when you're back at pretty much ground zero once again with a pocket full of cash and sitting at the top end of the draft.
Nothing has been built in these 2 seasons. There is no direction. There is no culture. He drafted some good players with premium draft capital -- that's a non-negotiable baseline, not an accomplishment. His body of work in free agency has been shit.
You're right, while you and FatMan would be high-fiving each other over the hire of Pat Shurmur and Dave Gettleman.
This is a joke, right? Are you twelve years old? That's the only way that comment makes any sense. 2018, aside from Barkley (who ain't looking too good at the moment either), is pure shit. Lauletta was a total bust. So is McIntosh. Hill is so awesome that they traded two picks for the privilege of paying through the nose for Williams. Carter is useless. Hernandez has stunk this year.
Complete bullshit. Go back to the archives - there were plenty of people who weren't terribly happy about the Solder signing.
Don't remember high fives.
I WAS WRONG.
I've said that before, and I'll say it again. Something that I imagine some of you have never said on this board and never will.
I still believe Gettleman is on the right track, and I do believe an experienced NFL Head Coach can pull more, much more, out of this roster assembled now, and what we add in the offseason.
There won't be any celebration though, I'm tired of watching this shit. I don't care what the fucking guy's name is, and whether he knows the Maras personally or not, I just want to go back to watching some actual, competitive football, with playoff chances not being squashed before the month of October starts.
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This whole regime was a bad decision from the beginning.
Hiring DG was ownership's attempt to roll back time and change their mind's on the Reese hire. There was a reason they didn't choose DG to begin with. They should have remembered that.
The NFL has changed significantly. You either recognize that and you change with it or you don't and your teams are consistent losers. Which boat do you think Mara and Tisch are in??
I see this comment a lot... the NFL has changed. How? Be specific? What has changed? Most of the time this is just a knock on DG's age.
Yes, DG's age has him locked in on how to choose players and evaluate talent. He is still picking like it's 1985. That was a LONG time ago, in a football galaxy FAR FAR AWAY...
He has one thing right, you build from the inside out. He just isn't hitting on the inside to this point. Bad FA signings and the now notorious Williams trade.
In my opinion, we need a younger GM with a similar philosophy (build from the inside, O-Line - D-Line / Linebacker and then the outside) but with an eye for today's upcoming stars. Not guys who would have fit the mold in the 80's/90's.
Your opinion may differ and that's fine. This is just the way I see it :)
Mara should have known that eyeglasses are a sign of weakness!
You can bookmark this post if you'd like - if they do exactly that, and return to winning (and real winning, not a 6-10 season, a record with more than 8 wins), I'll gladly come back and eat crow. I'm much more interested in a winning season than in being right.
And I do think that's exactly what they'll try, pairing Rivera with Gettleman. I just don't think that it's going to work.
Disagree. The Cards and Jets physically bullied the NYG. The Bear game was never in doubt. Tate’s late TD was window dressing. The 2 I think you might be right on are the Eagle and (maybe) Lion games. Offsetting that is the loss we should have incurred in Tampa. So, all in all, at best, maybe we are 3-10 instead of 2-11. Big f’ing deal.
To be 2-11 (really should be 1 - 12) with their schedule is really Hall of Fame bad. Outside of the Patriots they missed the entire top their of teams
I don't think anyone underestimates Shurmur - but it's hard to fault him entirely when there are so many rookies and so many holes on the roster. Kill Bettcher all you want, but he has exactly 1 guy who can rush the passer, no linebackers worth a damn, and a rookie secondary.
Assuming that defense would have some dramatic resurgence with another coach isn't reasonable. Could they have won 1 more of those games with better coaching? Probably. 3 or 4? Sure, if Belichick is willing to sign on.
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people underestimate how bad Shurmur actually is. Cardinals, Lions, Eagles, Jets, Bears games...of those 5 games we would have at least 3 wins, maybe 4 with a decently good football coach. Shurmur really is that horrific.
I don't think anyone underestimates Shurmur - but it's hard to fault him entirely [/b]when there are so many rookies[/b] and so many holes on the roster. Kill Bettcher all you want, but he has exactly 1 guy who can rush the passer, no linebackers worth a damn, and a rookie secondary.
Assuming that defense would have some dramatic resurgence with another coach isn't reasonable. Could they have won 1 more of those games with better coaching? Probably. 3 or 4? Sure, if Belichick is willing to sign on.
Something that Dave Gettleman has had exactly one and a half seasons to fix. That's exactly why it's harder to blame Gettleman than Shurmur.
It's reasonable to believe all of those rookies will get better. It's reasonable to believe the holes will still get filled with another draft and a lot to spend in free agency.
What is also reasonable to believe is that in many of the games that we've been in this year, better coaching could have closed them out. Would we be 10-6? NO. But we could be a 6 or 7 win team perhaps with better coaching (which shockingly would have us still in contention this particular season, not that we should expect to do anything with it but it's something to build on). It looked like that was happening last year, and then it all regressed. I blame that on Shurmur. Going backwards with the same roster. That's exactly what soured me on McAdoo.
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Best drafts in my lifetime under Gettleman.
This is a joke, right? Are you twelve years old? That's the only way that comment makes any sense. 2018, aside from Barkley (who ain't looking too good at the moment either), is pure shit. Lauletta was a total bust. So is McIntosh. Hill is so awesome that they traded two picks for the privilege of paying through the nose for Williams. Carter is useless. Hernandez has stunk this year.
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Everyone trying to kill him over Omemeh(sp) and Solder, not a single one of them disagreed with the move at the time.
Complete bullshit. Go back to the archives - there were plenty of people who weren't terribly happy about the Solder signing.
I'm fine with people calling the drafts 'promising' or saying it's too early to judge, but the assertion that DG had great drafts as facts is absolute delusion and fantasy.