In a job market with only 32 multi million dollar jobs.
There are going to be a lot of teams vying for a handful of top prospects. Being 'less desirable' absolutely makes a difference, unless your only concern is filling the spot.
The problem with the Giants is not Shurmur, per se, or DG. The problem with the Giants is ownership...Mara/Tisch. A culture of mediocrity has been allowed to set in and fester. This is so similar to the 1970's it is really ridiculous.
The deadweight has to be removed...to my mind, every aspect of the football operations side needs to be evaluated and probably cleaned out. There is a bad culture in the entire organization. Unless this culture changes, it won't matter who we hire.
People have to be held accountable...top to bottom. But it always starts at the top.
In a job market with only 32 multi million dollar jobs.
There are going to be a lot of teams vying for a handful of top prospects. Being 'less desirable' absolutely makes a difference, unless your only concern is filling the spot.
I don't think "desirability" is the key factor. Identifying a good coach and getting him hired is what matters. How many of these guys really get multiple offers.
Is spot on once you take off the rose colored glasses. Of course, the source will be attacked rather than the information. Which will lead to an automatic dismissal of the content.
I'm a Giants fan and sometimes it's impossible to take the blue tinted glasses...but this absolutely looks like an article designed to cherry pick info to fit an agenda.
In my mind - the Giants are the #2 spot on this list...for sure.
The logic in his strengths and weaknesses is mind blowing.
comparison to the Ravens is interesting. The Ravens are doing what Mr G wanted to do - top ranked running team. Sixth overall on D. But Whetger its bad coaching bad talent or most likely a combination, it has not planned out.
I think the other point about misalignment between management and coaching is 100% accurate. Shurmur is not putting the system in place that Mr G envisioned. It seems they are operating in silos
I think the other point about misalignment between management and coaching is 100% accurate. Shurmur is not putting the system in place that Mr G envisioned. It seems they are operating in silos
This will probably be why Gettleman gets another year. He'll claim internally that Shurmur didn't do what he wanted, but that's on Gettleman for hiring a coach off the Andy Reid tree and then being surprised when he's pass-happy and doesn't know what to do with a top runningback.
I'm a Giants fan and sometimes it's impossible to take the blue tinted glasses...but this absolutely looks like an article designed to cherry pick info to fit an agenda.
In my mind - the Giants are the #2 spot on this list...for sure.
The logic in his strengths and weaknesses is mind blowing.
Barnwell, cherry picking to fit an agenda using mid blowing logic, offers fact-based analysis for every team on the list and concludes the Giants are the second worst job on the list.
You, a genius, offer no analysis of any kind and conclude the Giants are the second best job on the list.
DG's model is sound but he has no idea how to choose the right players.
I'm totally convinced that Gettleman's model and image of team is what the Tennessee Titans are and have been for the last two seasons.
Problem is, Gettleman never interviewed the man who is coaching that team, Mike Vrabel.
So Gettleman has a vision of what he wants, but decided Shurmur was either the right person to execute it, or forced into putting him in a position where he could be hired. Either way, that was awful advance research that came to that conclusion.
I don't think "desirability" is the key factor. Identifying a good coach and getting him hired is what matters. How many of these guys really get multiple offers.
So you're suggesting that if the Giants and Cowboys had interest in Lincoln Riley, that there's no concern about the relative status of those two organizations when it comes to trying to land him?
Of course the desirability matters. It was rumored two coaches didn't even consider the Giants during the last go around because of the internal dysfunction. Forget about multiple offers, it's possible people don't even want to have the chat things are so upside down right now.
But is it really cherry picking when there are about a million different reasons why this franchise is terrible?
Phil, the folks ripping Barnwell for his constructive criticism of a team that has lost 35 of its last 45 games does seem a little strange, doesn't it?
If Gettleman is out. But what high profile coach wants to leave a good job to work for a lame duck, 68 year old Dave Gettleman? With John and Chris Mara getting involved in personnel. It’s not a great spot when you factor all of that in.
Someone will say oh what about Jerry Jones and you’re right, Jerry is a negative associated with the Dallas job. But he’s proven to be pretty loyal to his coaches and the job otherwise is the highest profile in the sport with great facilities and a loaded roster.
I don’t know how you can bring Gettleman back. It’s time to really hit a home run and he is going to make that harder.
All that said I think it’s about 95% we get Gettleman and Rivera next year. Ugh.
I don't think "desirability" is the key factor. Identifying a good coach and getting him hired is what matters. How many of these guys really get multiple offers.
So you're suggesting that if the Giants and Cowboys had interest in Lincoln Riley, that there's no concern about the relative status of those two organizations when it comes to trying to land him?
Of course the desirability matters. It was rumored two coaches didn't even consider the Giants during the last go around because of the internal dysfunction. Forget about multiple offers, it's possible people don't even want to have the chat things are so upside down right now.
Any candidate interviewing for HC positions is going to take the Dallas job over the NYG job. Anyone saying otherwise is lying to themselves.
I'm a Giants fan and sometimes it's impossible to take the blue tinted glasses...but this absolutely looks like an article designed to cherry pick info to fit an agenda.
In my mind - the Giants are the #2 spot on this list...for sure.
The logic in his strengths and weaknesses is mind blowing.
Barnwell, cherry picking to fit an agenda using mid blowing logic, offers fact-based analysis for every team on the list and concludes the Giants are the second worst job on the list.
You, a genius, offer no analysis of any kind and conclude the Giants are the second best job on the list.
I think I’m leaning towards Barnwell.
Jets
Strengths: Promising QB - really? that's the strength of the organization? A guy that reportedly was "hearing ghosts" ... is he is really all that more promising that Daniel Jones? That roster sucks the same if not worse than the NYG...Their best player was requesting a trade mid-season...their skill position players are terrible and L. Bell would rather bowl than play football.
The Jags:
Stregths: draft capital - yeah they've got some draft capital, but got it at the expense of trading their best player.
Weakness: no QB - w/o a QB, you can't compete. This isn't a new problem - go ahead and look at the list of swing and miss QBs they've had the last 10 years.
Cleveland Browns:
Good luck trying to fix the culture in that locker room while appeasing the crazy ownership group. You think the Giants have a dysfunctional organization - read the ESPN article from Jan 2019. That place is a zoo.
The Detroit Lions:
Biggest strength: QB - REALLY? this is actually a bigger swing and miss that Darnold as the strength of the Jets. What exactly is there to believe in as STafford as your QB?Stafford is 31 yrs old and set to make 21.5 mil next year. Not to mention the fact that he has a broken back and has missed most of this year.
The Atlanta Falcons:
I could see this being a desirable spot for the short term - but long term - they are in about to enter salary cap hell. THey've got some monster contracts and are expecting guys like Matt Ryan and Julio Jones to continue to be major impact players well into their mid 30s. Those guys don't have outs in their contract either. You have to come in and win day one - because you're going to need to build some positive pub for when the lean years hit - and they're going to hit hard in the near future.
THe Carolina Panthers:
Two words - Cam Newton.
You want to take that on as your first order of business as a head coach? Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place on day one of the job.
Dallas Cowboys:
Jason Garrett is worse than Pat Shurmur.
The Cowboys are very talented. You have to deal with Jerry - but this is the job I want. You bring the Cowboys to the Super Bowl ... you would be a legend.
I don't think "desirability" is the key factor. Identifying a good coach and getting him hired is what matters. How many of these guys really get multiple offers.
So you're suggesting that if the Giants and Cowboys had interest in Lincoln Riley, that there's no concern about the relative status of those two organizations when it comes to trying to land him?
Of course the desirability matters. It was rumored two coaches didn't even consider the Giants during the last go around because of the internal dysfunction. Forget about multiple offers, it's possible people don't even want to have the chat things are so upside down right now.
But they do want to go to the Cowboys where Jerry Jones is breathing down their necks on a minute by minute basis. Cowboys have one of the worst management setups in the league but Barnwell thinks they're the most desirable. Ok then.
now than it was in 2018 now that eli has been effectively put out to pasture.
but at this point mara has shown himself to be every bit the clown meddling owner as jerry jones has. daniel snyder is worse but at this point not by much.
agree with most of his comments, and would definitely fire Gettleman.
As Barnwell notes, DG’s FA signings and trades have ruined the team. That includes Solder, Stewart, Omameh, Tate, Ogletree, Remmers, and Williams.
He also hasn’t improved the OL, which he was hired specifically to do. He was the guy who found Norwell, and was supposed to be able to find good quality OL on day three of the draft. Instead he’s used two of 18 picks in two drafts on OL, and one of those was a seventh round pick who missed his entire rookie year.
Some other comments:
(1) Barkley’s problems are with the OL and his nagging ankle injury. He was a defensible pick, and I would have been happy with either him or Darnold. Darnold has not yet established himself as a franchise QB, although he’s only in his second year, and missed a lot of games with mono. The Jets are also a mess.
(2) It’s difficult to judge Hernandez. The entire OL is a mess, and he’s playing next to Solder and Halapio.
(3) I agree that Carter has plateaued as was discussed in another thread. Hill is a good rotational player.
(4) Picking Lauletta was silly even if the Giants had already concluded that Webb would not succeed Eli. There was almost no chance that Lauletta would either.
(5) Jones has been excellent given his dearth of weapons, bad OL, and porous defense. Most of his fumbling is because he’s holding the ball waiting for his receivers to separate.
(6) Like Reese, DG refuses to ever trade down in any round.
(7) I agree with whoever said that keeping DG limits our selection of coaches because many won't want to deal with a 68 year old GM.
He criticizes Jones for being “inconsistent” and also criticizes the Barkley pick with the suggestion we could have taken Darnold. As if Darnold hasn’t been inconsistent?
This year Darnold has 2424 pass yds 62% completion with 15 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR and a low QBR of a 3.6 and an 84 overall.
Jones has 2374 pass yards 61% completion with 18 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR with a low of 34 and an 84.3 overall.
The seasons are pretty close and Darnold has a year starting experience on him.
This is supposed to be some kind of salient point?
He criticizes Jones for being “inconsistent” and also criticizes the Barkley pick with the suggestion we could have taken Darnold. As if Darnold hasn’t been inconsistent?
This year Darnold has 2424 pass yds 62% completion with 15 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR and a low QBR of a 3.6 and an 84 overall.
Jones has 2374 pass yards 61% completion with 18 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR with a low of 34 and an 84.3 overall.
The seasons are pretty close and Darnold has a year starting experience on him.
This is supposed to be some kind of salient point?
in fairness, darnold missed a few games this season with mono and probably wasn't fully recovered the first couple weeks after he came back. he's looked every bit as good as jones if not better over the past few weeks.
Good post. On your last point, I don’t think the issue is so much his age but moreso his management style and philosophy for success could be a turnoff for a small number of hot candidates who are going to be in high demand by multiple teams. For an ambitious coordinator or position coach looking for a head coaching shot not to mention unemployed former head coaches, they will work within the Giants matrix
Good post. On your last point, I don’t think the issue is so much his age but moreso his management style and philosophy for success could be a turnoff for a small number of hot candidates who are going to be in high demand by multiple teams. For an ambitious coordinator or position coach looking for a head coaching shot not to mention unemployed former head coaches, they will work within the Giants matrix
He criticizes Jones for being “inconsistent” and also criticizes the Barkley pick with the suggestion we could have taken Darnold. As if Darnold hasn’t been inconsistent?
This year Darnold has 2424 pass yds 62% completion with 15 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR and a low QBR of a 3.6 and an 84 overall.
Jones has 2374 pass yards 61% completion with 18 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR with a low of 34 and an 84.3 overall.
The seasons are pretty close and Darnold has a year starting experience on him.
This is supposed to be some kind of salient point?
Why would you purposefully leave out the most obvious criticism of jones? You know that's very relevant.
He criticizes Jones for being “inconsistent” and also criticizes the Barkley pick with the suggestion we could have taken Darnold. As if Darnold hasn’t been inconsistent?
This year Darnold has 2424 pass yds 62% completion with 15 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR and a low QBR of a 3.6 and an 84 overall.
Jones has 2374 pass yards 61% completion with 18 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR with a low of 34 and an 84.3 overall.
The seasons are pretty close and Darnold has a year starting experience on him.
This is supposed to be some kind of salient point?
in fairness, darnold missed a few games this season with mono and probably wasn't fully recovered the first couple weeks after he came back. he's looked every bit as good as jones if not better over the past few weeks.
Do you consider putting up 6 offensive pts vs the winless Bengals to be good?
in support of Gettleman in the past and now don't want to believe your lying eyes.
There is no poyetiial coach out there who looks at the Giants and says: "Great DG is GM and I can't wait to hitch my star to his wagon. Look at the job he's done over the last two years! This is the GM I want getting the players for my one shot at the NFL"
But they do want to go to the Cowboys where Jerry Jones is breathing down their necks on a minute by minute basis. Cowboys have one of the worst management setups in the league but Barnwell thinks they're the most desirable. Ok then.
As opposed to having the NY media breathing down your neck every minute of the news cycle?
I don't think the pressure is going to be materially different in most big markets, or with most bosses.
I don't think I'd want to work for Snyder only because he'd want to be involved in day-to-day from the jump, whereas Jones would probably give you some rope at first.
In NY, you'd have a Mara sitting in the office down the end of the hall, helping to make personnel decisions.
in support of Gettleman in the past and now don't want to believe your lying eyes.
There is no poyetiial coach out there who looks at the Giants and says: "Great DG is GM and I can't wait to hitch my star to his wagon. Look at the job he's done over the last two years! This is the GM I want getting the players for my one shot at the NFL"
Unless that coach is desperate and knows he does not have many options due to a host of factors.
Many thought it was a sure thing Mike McCarthy was going to get another HC job in a few minutes after being fired. But as we have seen with many teams, there is a different trend of hiring that has taken place with guys coming in in their 30's and early 40's.
That pushed McCarthy out for most teams. It may happen again. This time, Rivera may get the same treatment where age is held against him.
With that in play, I can see a situation similar to what happened with John Fox (age 60 at the time) here in Chicago, where out of desperation, he takes the HC job with the Bears that came with a number of warning signs, particularly in the upper management and ownership department. But when you are 60 years old, it is hard to just hold out and wait for the right organization structure to come along when owners are seeking younger coaches and disposing of old ones.
Fox, when hired by Chicago, was 119-89 as a coach coming off being 46-18 with Denver and 73-71 with Carolina. Seems like the right guy to regain credibility you would think?
Some of the fans loved it because he was a "proven, winning, veteran coach" (sound familiar right now?) who would erase the stench of Marc Trestman, who was a bumbling fool that only cared about offense, would mostly look down at his playcalling sheet during games (sound familiar?), and provide weird answers to questions from reporters (we see that a lot).
The result? A 14-34 record and fired after 3 seasons.
So if you are going to hire one of those type of guys who are just desperate to get back in there and just willing to accept the organization and management structure the Giants currently have based on what has been happening the last 7 years, I would be very leery of the quality of coach they would be hiring.
Barnwell sounds like a moron - and then proves it by Â
It is impossible to correctly evaluate the talent, particularly the rookies and second year guys, with the most inept and downright incompetent coaching group seen in GIANTS blue in well over half a century.
No Rivera or McCarthy. This team and organization needs a reboot. They played it safe last time and it backfired. Rhule has won as a head coach in not surefire situations. He had to make it happen. Gettleman has been 50/50 at best and his veteran additions with big salary offers are not good. We need edge rushers way more than D tackles. So he acquires Williams. Get someone younger and more up to date with the current NFL. Gettleman is a fossil. He won't be missed.
Eli's fault. OBJ's fault, Reese's Fault, Shurmur's Fault, McAdoo's fault, OL's fault, LB and DL's fault. Coughlin's fault and so on and so on.
You know whose fault it is?
Mara.
Now I don't agree they are the 2nd least desirable team to be a coach for. That is a stretch. But losing as much as they have points to one thing. Ownership.
The Knicks and Rangers owner sucks. The Mets ownership sucks. The Isles in the past had lousy owners and what does it get you. Lousy results.
John Mara is not his father. Period. The handling of Eli was atrocious. This guy won 2 SB's and the circle jerk situation that happened 2 seasons ago was BS. So if you decide to move on then move on. No, they bring him back with huge dollars and then bench him 2 games in for what will be a mediocre QB. I know there is a lot of time to look at Jones but I wasn't in favor of the pick and he hasn't shown me anything that will change my mind.
It is time to make systematic changes.
1) Gettleman and Shurmur need to be fired. Black monday should come and both should be gone.
2) A new non-Giant affiliated President of Operations and GM come in and do a serious evaluation of the on and off field organization.
3) A non-Giant affiliated coach should be brought in (unless it is Belichik). Maybe even a college coach with new ideas.
4) ***Mara needs to sit in his booth, watch the games and write checks.***
I am not saying Mara is the most intrusive owner. He certainly is no Jerry Jones but the Giants are his business unlike many owners where the football team is their weekend hobby. He needs to get out of the way and let the real men handle the job.
"If they don't fire Gettleman, they'll end up with a mismatched general manager and coach who are incentivized to do different things by their relative job security, the same issue that plagued the Jets for years."
THIS, for me, is the number one issue of the off-season. IF you aren't 100% on board with the GM, which is to say there is virtually no chance you will fire him within the next year or two (and you absolutely should NOT be saying that, given the past two seasons, etc) than it makes no sense to allow him to chose the next HC. IF you fire the GM next seasonthe next GM will want a HC of his own choosing and there will be differences of opinion etc.
In short, if you're going to change things than don't do it half-assed.
Is spot on once you take off the rose colored glasses. Of course, the source will be attacked rather than the information. Which will lead to an automatic dismissal of the content.
People would really pick the Browns and Jets over the Giants?
+1
There are going to be a lot of teams vying for a handful of top prospects. Being 'less desirable' absolutely makes a difference, unless your only concern is filling the spot.
that's really how you're thinking about this?
People would really pick the Browns and Jets over the Giants?
The Browns for sure. That roster is loaded.
And the Jets are a helluva closer to competing than we are.
Gettleman must go.
The bigger question I have about the Giants is what dead weight remains in the scouting department.
The deadweight has to be removed...to my mind, every aspect of the football operations side needs to be evaluated and probably cleaned out. There is a bad culture in the entire organization. Unless this culture changes, it won't matter who we hire.
People have to be held accountable...top to bottom. But it always starts at the top.
Quote:
In a job market with only 32 multi million dollar jobs.
There are going to be a lot of teams vying for a handful of top prospects. Being 'less desirable' absolutely makes a difference, unless your only concern is filling the spot.
I don't think "desirability" is the key factor. Identifying a good coach and getting him hired is what matters. How many of these guys really get multiple offers.
In my mind - the Giants are the #2 spot on this list...for sure.
The logic in his strengths and weaknesses is mind blowing.
I think the other point about misalignment between management and coaching is 100% accurate. Shurmur is not putting the system in place that Mr G envisioned. It seems they are operating in silos
I think the other point about misalignment between management and coaching is 100% accurate. Shurmur is not putting the system in place that Mr G envisioned. It seems they are operating in silos
This will probably be why Gettleman gets another year. He'll claim internally that Shurmur didn't do what he wanted, but that's on Gettleman for hiring a coach off the Andy Reid tree and then being surprised when he's pass-happy and doesn't know what to do with a top runningback.
In my mind - the Giants are the #2 spot on this list...for sure.
The logic in his strengths and weaknesses is mind blowing.
Barnwell, cherry picking to fit an agenda using mid blowing logic, offers fact-based analysis for every team on the list and concludes the Giants are the second worst job on the list.
You, a genius, offer no analysis of any kind and conclude the Giants are the second best job on the list.
I think I’m leaning towards Barnwell.
I'm totally convinced that Gettleman's model and image of team is what the Tennessee Titans are and have been for the last two seasons.
Problem is, Gettleman never interviewed the man who is coaching that team, Mike Vrabel.
So Gettleman has a vision of what he wants, but decided Shurmur was either the right person to execute it, or forced into putting him in a position where he could be hired. Either way, that was awful advance research that came to that conclusion.
I don't think "desirability" is the key factor. Identifying a good coach and getting him hired is what matters. How many of these guys really get multiple offers.
So you're suggesting that if the Giants and Cowboys had interest in Lincoln Riley, that there's no concern about the relative status of those two organizations when it comes to trying to land him?
Of course the desirability matters. It was rumored two coaches didn't even consider the Giants during the last go around because of the internal dysfunction. Forget about multiple offers, it's possible people don't even want to have the chat things are so upside down right now.
Phil, the folks ripping Barnwell for his constructive criticism of a team that has lost 35 of its last 45 games does seem a little strange, doesn't it?
Someone will say oh what about Jerry Jones and you’re right, Jerry is a negative associated with the Dallas job. But he’s proven to be pretty loyal to his coaches and the job otherwise is the highest profile in the sport with great facilities and a loaded roster.
I don’t know how you can bring Gettleman back. It’s time to really hit a home run and he is going to make that harder.
All that said I think it’s about 95% we get Gettleman and Rivera next year. Ugh.
Quote:
I don't think "desirability" is the key factor. Identifying a good coach and getting him hired is what matters. How many of these guys really get multiple offers.
So you're suggesting that if the Giants and Cowboys had interest in Lincoln Riley, that there's no concern about the relative status of those two organizations when it comes to trying to land him?
Of course the desirability matters. It was rumored two coaches didn't even consider the Giants during the last go around because of the internal dysfunction. Forget about multiple offers, it's possible people don't even want to have the chat things are so upside down right now.
Any candidate interviewing for HC positions is going to take the Dallas job over the NYG job. Anyone saying otherwise is lying to themselves.
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I'm a Giants fan and sometimes it's impossible to take the blue tinted glasses...but this absolutely looks like an article designed to cherry pick info to fit an agenda.
In my mind - the Giants are the #2 spot on this list...for sure.
The logic in his strengths and weaknesses is mind blowing.
Barnwell, cherry picking to fit an agenda using mid blowing logic, offers fact-based analysis for every team on the list and concludes the Giants are the second worst job on the list.
You, a genius, offer no analysis of any kind and conclude the Giants are the second best job on the list.
I think I’m leaning towards Barnwell.
Jets
Strengths: Promising QB - really? that's the strength of the organization? A guy that reportedly was "hearing ghosts" ... is he is really all that more promising that Daniel Jones? That roster sucks the same if not worse than the NYG...Their best player was requesting a trade mid-season...their skill position players are terrible and L. Bell would rather bowl than play football.
The Jags:
Stregths: draft capital - yeah they've got some draft capital, but got it at the expense of trading their best player.
Weakness: no QB - w/o a QB, you can't compete. This isn't a new problem - go ahead and look at the list of swing and miss QBs they've had the last 10 years.
Cleveland Browns:
Good luck trying to fix the culture in that locker room while appeasing the crazy ownership group. You think the Giants have a dysfunctional organization - read the ESPN article from Jan 2019. That place is a zoo.
The Detroit Lions:
Biggest strength: QB - REALLY? this is actually a bigger swing and miss that Darnold as the strength of the Jets. What exactly is there to believe in as STafford as your QB?Stafford is 31 yrs old and set to make 21.5 mil next year. Not to mention the fact that he has a broken back and has missed most of this year.
The Atlanta Falcons:
I could see this being a desirable spot for the short term - but long term - they are in about to enter salary cap hell. THey've got some monster contracts and are expecting guys like Matt Ryan and Julio Jones to continue to be major impact players well into their mid 30s. Those guys don't have outs in their contract either. You have to come in and win day one - because you're going to need to build some positive pub for when the lean years hit - and they're going to hit hard in the near future.
THe Carolina Panthers:
Two words - Cam Newton.
You want to take that on as your first order of business as a head coach? Talk about being stuck between a rock and a hard place on day one of the job.
Dallas Cowboys:
Jason Garrett is worse than Pat Shurmur.
The Cowboys are very talented. You have to deal with Jerry - but this is the job I want. You bring the Cowboys to the Super Bowl ... you would be a legend.
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I don't think "desirability" is the key factor. Identifying a good coach and getting him hired is what matters. How many of these guys really get multiple offers.
So you're suggesting that if the Giants and Cowboys had interest in Lincoln Riley, that there's no concern about the relative status of those two organizations when it comes to trying to land him?
Of course the desirability matters. It was rumored two coaches didn't even consider the Giants during the last go around because of the internal dysfunction. Forget about multiple offers, it's possible people don't even want to have the chat things are so upside down right now.
But they do want to go to the Cowboys where Jerry Jones is breathing down their necks on a minute by minute basis. Cowboys have one of the worst management setups in the league but Barnwell thinks they're the most desirable. Ok then.
but at this point mara has shown himself to be every bit the clown meddling owner as jerry jones has. daniel snyder is worse but at this point not by much.
As Barnwell notes, DG’s FA signings and trades have ruined the team. That includes Solder, Stewart, Omameh, Tate, Ogletree, Remmers, and Williams.
He also hasn’t improved the OL, which he was hired specifically to do. He was the guy who found Norwell, and was supposed to be able to find good quality OL on day three of the draft. Instead he’s used two of 18 picks in two drafts on OL, and one of those was a seventh round pick who missed his entire rookie year.
Some other comments:
(1) Barkley’s problems are with the OL and his nagging ankle injury. He was a defensible pick, and I would have been happy with either him or Darnold. Darnold has not yet established himself as a franchise QB, although he’s only in his second year, and missed a lot of games with mono. The Jets are also a mess.
(2) It’s difficult to judge Hernandez. The entire OL is a mess, and he’s playing next to Solder and Halapio.
(3) I agree that Carter has plateaued as was discussed in another thread. Hill is a good rotational player.
(4) Picking Lauletta was silly even if the Giants had already concluded that Webb would not succeed Eli. There was almost no chance that Lauletta would either.
(5) Jones has been excellent given his dearth of weapons, bad OL, and porous defense. Most of his fumbling is because he’s holding the ball waiting for his receivers to separate.
(6) Like Reese, DG refuses to ever trade down in any round.
(7) I agree with whoever said that keeping DG limits our selection of coaches because many won't want to deal with a 68 year old GM.
This year Darnold has 2424 pass yds 62% completion with 15 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR and a low QBR of a 3.6 and an 84 overall.
Jones has 2374 pass yards 61% completion with 18 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR with a low of 34 and an 84.3 overall.
The seasons are pretty close and Darnold has a year starting experience on him.
This is supposed to be some kind of salient point?
This year Darnold has 2424 pass yds 62% completion with 15 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR and a low QBR of a 3.6 and an 84 overall.
Jones has 2374 pass yards 61% completion with 18 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR with a low of 34 and an 84.3 overall.
The seasons are pretty close and Darnold has a year starting experience on him.
This is supposed to be some kind of salient point?
in fairness, darnold missed a few games this season with mono and probably wasn't fully recovered the first couple weeks after he came back. he's looked every bit as good as jones if not better over the past few weeks.
Agreed.
This year Darnold has 2424 pass yds 62% completion with 15 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR and a low QBR of a 3.6 and an 84 overall.
Jones has 2374 pass yards 61% completion with 18 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR with a low of 34 and an 84.3 overall.
The seasons are pretty close and Darnold has a year starting experience on him.
This is supposed to be some kind of salient point?
Why would you purposefully leave out the most obvious criticism of jones? You know that's very relevant.
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He criticizes Jones for being “inconsistent” and also criticizes the Barkley pick with the suggestion we could have taken Darnold. As if Darnold hasn’t been inconsistent?
This year Darnold has 2424 pass yds 62% completion with 15 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR and a low QBR of a 3.6 and an 84 overall.
Jones has 2374 pass yards 61% completion with 18 TD and 11 INT with 3 games over 100 QBR with a low of 34 and an 84.3 overall.
The seasons are pretty close and Darnold has a year starting experience on him.
This is supposed to be some kind of salient point?
in fairness, darnold missed a few games this season with mono and probably wasn't fully recovered the first couple weeks after he came back. he's looked every bit as good as jones if not better over the past few weeks.
Do you consider putting up 6 offensive pts vs the winless Bengals to be good?
Bottom line - he is NOT a slam dunk
There is no poyetiial coach out there who looks at the Giants and says: "Great DG is GM and I can't wait to hitch my star to his wagon. Look at the job he's done over the last two years! This is the GM I want getting the players for my one shot at the NFL"
But they do want to go to the Cowboys where Jerry Jones is breathing down their necks on a minute by minute basis. Cowboys have one of the worst management setups in the league but Barnwell thinks they're the most desirable. Ok then.
As opposed to having the NY media breathing down your neck every minute of the news cycle?
I don't think the pressure is going to be materially different in most big markets, or with most bosses.
I don't think I'd want to work for Snyder only because he'd want to be involved in day-to-day from the jump, whereas Jones would probably give you some rope at first.
In NY, you'd have a Mara sitting in the office down the end of the hall, helping to make personnel decisions.
It was bad execution. Lauletta should have been given starts after 1-7.
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the Lauletta pick wasn't a bad idea. I'm in favor of always drafting a QB each year. This one just didn't work out. It was a bad fit.
It was bad execution. Lauletta should have been given starts after 1-7.
I hear you. Lauletta's failure isn't just one way. It's both ways - his immaturity and this incompetent staff not knowing how to deal with a project.
There is no poyetiial coach out there who looks at the Giants and says: "Great DG is GM and I can't wait to hitch my star to his wagon. Look at the job he's done over the last two years! This is the GM I want getting the players for my one shot at the NFL"
Unless that coach is desperate and knows he does not have many options due to a host of factors.
Many thought it was a sure thing Mike McCarthy was going to get another HC job in a few minutes after being fired. But as we have seen with many teams, there is a different trend of hiring that has taken place with guys coming in in their 30's and early 40's.
That pushed McCarthy out for most teams. It may happen again. This time, Rivera may get the same treatment where age is held against him.
With that in play, I can see a situation similar to what happened with John Fox (age 60 at the time) here in Chicago, where out of desperation, he takes the HC job with the Bears that came with a number of warning signs, particularly in the upper management and ownership department. But when you are 60 years old, it is hard to just hold out and wait for the right organization structure to come along when owners are seeking younger coaches and disposing of old ones.
Fox, when hired by Chicago, was 119-89 as a coach coming off being 46-18 with Denver and 73-71 with Carolina. Seems like the right guy to regain credibility you would think?
Some of the fans loved it because he was a "proven, winning, veteran coach" (sound familiar right now?) who would erase the stench of Marc Trestman, who was a bumbling fool that only cared about offense, would mostly look down at his playcalling sheet during games (sound familiar?), and provide weird answers to questions from reporters (we see that a lot).
The result? A 14-34 record and fired after 3 seasons.
So if you are going to hire one of those type of guys who are just desperate to get back in there and just willing to accept the organization and management structure the Giants currently have based on what has been happening the last 7 years, I would be very leery of the quality of coach they would be hiring.
Eli's fault. OBJ's fault, Reese's Fault, Shurmur's Fault, McAdoo's fault, OL's fault, LB and DL's fault. Coughlin's fault and so on and so on.
You know whose fault it is?
Mara.
Now I don't agree they are the 2nd least desirable team to be a coach for. That is a stretch. But losing as much as they have points to one thing. Ownership.
The Knicks and Rangers owner sucks. The Mets ownership sucks. The Isles in the past had lousy owners and what does it get you. Lousy results.
John Mara is not his father. Period. The handling of Eli was atrocious. This guy won 2 SB's and the circle jerk situation that happened 2 seasons ago was BS. So if you decide to move on then move on. No, they bring him back with huge dollars and then bench him 2 games in for what will be a mediocre QB. I know there is a lot of time to look at Jones but I wasn't in favor of the pick and he hasn't shown me anything that will change my mind.
It is time to make systematic changes.
1) Gettleman and Shurmur need to be fired. Black monday should come and both should be gone.
2) A new non-Giant affiliated President of Operations and GM come in and do a serious evaluation of the on and off field organization.
3) A non-Giant affiliated coach should be brought in (unless it is Belichik). Maybe even a college coach with new ideas.
4) ***Mara needs to sit in his booth, watch the games and write checks.***
I am not saying Mara is the most intrusive owner. He certainly is no Jerry Jones but the Giants are his business unlike many owners where the football team is their weekend hobby. He needs to get out of the way and let the real men handle the job.
THIS, for me, is the number one issue of the off-season. IF you aren't 100% on board with the GM, which is to say there is virtually no chance you will fire him within the next year or two (and you absolutely should NOT be saying that, given the past two seasons, etc) than it makes no sense to allow him to chose the next HC. IF you fire the GM next seasonthe next GM will want a HC of his own choosing and there will be differences of opinion etc.
In short, if you're going to change things than don't do it half-assed.
ad hominem. the specialty of many a modern mind