this season. Not once. Now, I know he has been hurt but, even still, that, to me, is an incredible stat and a complete indictment of Pat Shurmur.
I was listening to Charlie Weis this morning on Sirius and he was talking about LeVeon Bell and how he would pound the ball over and over with Bell tonight, not to mention the passing game. Now Charlie comes from the Parcells factory...where running the ball and the rushing attempts were always a huge factor. Charlie still believes that way and so do I.
I don't care who you are in the NFL but if you do not run the ball effectively and attempt to run the ball you will go nowhere. One could easily make the argument that Dallas' issues are the fact they are not relying enough on Elliott.
Barkley is our best player...it is not even close...to not use him to the fullest extent possible is a complete failure of our offensive coaching staff. As Weis said this morning, even rushing attempts force the defense to respect the run...even if you are not making big yardage. With that, you can then use play action passes etc.
Look, I know the NFL has changed but, in many cases, it has not. Running the ball is still a prerequisite to being a successful offensive team. When the Rams took the NFL by storm three years ago it was because they were pounding the ball with Gurley. Seattle did that with Lynch and still runs the ball a lot. Heck, you could easily argue that you can get away with a game manager at QB if you are able to pound the ball. Not to mention the fact it takes time off the clock and wears a defense down.
This is the issue, to me, I simply do not understand with Shurmur. Pound the ball...use a jumbo formation since we cannot seem to find a TE who can block. Pound it and pound it and pound it. This is the NorthEast, that is Giants football. To me, it is the biggest reason why he MUST be fired. USE our best player for God's sake...get him involved in the passing game, screens, swing passes...but get him the ball. Good grief...this is not that difficult.
instead they draft an RB with the 2nd overall and blew a high fourth on kyle fucking lauletta.
their draft strategy that year was questionable at best, and i am a barkley supporter.
Granted, but this team hasn’t been able to beat a cover 2 shell since the last Super Bowl. Heck, that’s the reason we drafted Engram. Other offenses don’t seem to have such problems. We need a talent infusion and improved coaching. Our 2018 draft class looked better as rookies than they do now.
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In comment 14716346 Go Terps said:
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In comment 14716254 Britt in VA said:
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Saquon had 91 receptions last year. 91! Those are WR numbers.
And he was largely ineffective in those receptions. He was 16th amongst RBs in YPC. The number of receptions was a function of defenses bring happy to allow Eli to check down.
The Barkley pick has been a completely disaster.
Agreed, what is largely not understood on this forum is that Barkley could be a great player and still be a terrible pick. To justify the spot where he was drafted, he needed to change the entire dynamic of the Giants rushing attack himself. He hasn't done that.
The excuses of he doesn't have an oline, or he doesn't have the qb to check into the right pick are bogus. Those are exactly reasons why you never start a rebuild or a build of any type with a rb, because they are so dependent on other positions on the field. It was the wrong pick at the wrong time.
And what player would have changed it all? Darnold? Chubb? Nelson?
That single pick would have changed our fortunes in some profound way as long as it wasn't Barkley?
We had holes EVERYWHERE. It's not going to kill you to take the BPA there.
Has Barkley been an impact player? What would have been different the last two years with a Wayne Gallman/Orleans Darkwa platoon? Also, you get exactly one more season out of Barkley at this point and, if he goes back to performing the way he did his first year (a big "if", but let's give him the benefit of the doubt) you get a holdout and he will be due a massive cap-restricting new contract. Also, he will by that point have been tackled almost 1,000 times in the NFL (guys get bigger, stronger and faster after 1,000 NFL hits, right?). During his three seasons, the Giants will have accumulated how many wins ? Hopefully double digits!
It was a wasted pick because he has had no impact in the years where you would reasonably hope for him to be at his very best and his least expensive and, moving forward, he becomes nothing but a strategic nightmare for the organization. Has any NFL team in the modern era ever been happy with the value they've gotten on a big contract for a veteran running back?
You don't.
No point in continuing the conversation.
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In comment 14716254 Britt in VA said:
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Saquon had 91 receptions last year. 91! Those are WR numbers.
And he was largely ineffective in those receptions. He was 16th amongst RBs in YPC. The number of receptions was a function of defenses bring happy to allow Eli to check down.
The Barkley pick has been a completely disaster.
Agreed, what is largely not understood on this forum is that Barkley could be a great player and still be a terrible pick. To justify the spot where he was drafted, he needed to change the entire dynamic of the Giants rushing attack himself. He hasn't done that.
The excuses of he doesn't have an oline, or he doesn't have the qb to check into the right pick are bogus. Those are exactly reasons why you never start a rebuild or a build of any type with a rb, because they are so dependent on other positions on the field. It was the wrong pick at the wrong time.
The conclusion that he hasn;t changed the entire dynamic of the rushing attack is based on what exactly? 2019? The guy missed a large chuck of time and was clearly playing injured for several weeks after he returned. He was the offensive ROY last year, so I would say yeah he changed the dynamic of the rushing offense and the offense in geneal last year all by himself. SO what we are going to ignore the dynamic force he was last year because of injury related struggles this year? That's just stupid. People are just so damn dug in on their positions that they ignore everything just to say "Ha, I told you so."
You don't.
No point in continuing the conversation.
You said yourself that the Giants had massive holes everywhere when they drafted him. So shouldn't that have been part of the determination when they used the second pick in the draft on a guy who plays a complimentary position that also happens to have the shortest shelf-life in the league?
Also, he has now played two NFL seasons. So your description of even his statistical performance is... incomplete.
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is an impact player. Especially on a team where the rest of the pieces are performing as well.
You don't.
No point in continuing the conversation.
You said yourself that the Giants had massive holes everywhere when they drafted him. So shouldn't that have been part of the determination when they used the second pick in the draft on a guy who plays a complimentary position that also happens to have the shortest shelf-life in the league?
Also, he has now played two NFL seasons. So your description of even his statistical performance is... incomplete.
They had other picks to fill holes and it was never a 1 year job anyway. You have a chance at a HOF-level talent, you take that guy.
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In comment 14716346 Go Terps said:
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In comment 14716254 Britt in VA said:
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Saquon had 91 receptions last year. 91! Those are WR numbers.
And he was largely ineffective in those receptions. He was 16th amongst RBs in YPC. The number of receptions was a function of defenses bring happy to allow Eli to check down.
The Barkley pick has been a completely disaster.
Agreed, what is largely not understood on this forum is that Barkley could be a great player and still be a terrible pick. To justify the spot where he was drafted, he needed to change the entire dynamic of the Giants rushing attack himself. He hasn't done that.
The excuses of he doesn't have an oline, or he doesn't have the qb to check into the right pick are bogus. Those are exactly reasons why you never start a rebuild or a build of any type with a rb, because they are so dependent on other positions on the field. It was the wrong pick at the wrong time.
The conclusion that he hasn;t changed the entire dynamic of the rushing attack is based on what exactly? 2019? The guy missed a large chuck of time and was clearly playing injured for several weeks after he returned. He was the offensive ROY last year, so I would say yeah he changed the dynamic of the rushing offense and the offense in geneal last year all by himself. SO what we are going to ignore the dynamic force he was last year because of injury related struggles this year? That's just stupid. People are just so damn dug in on their positions that they ignore everything just to say "Ha, I told you so."
"Dynamic force"? They were a middle of the road offensive team last year and they won 5 games. Also, you claim other people want to ignore his first season, but then you go ahead and say we should just ignore his second season. You sound pretty dug in yourself.
Well of course the entire 11 man defense is pressed up on the line of scrimmage knowing full well that Cpt. Check Down was running the show last year.
This is true. Remember when we played Tampa, Arians came out and said the goal was to stop SB and force Jones to beat them. Made no bones about it. So it's 100% clear that every DC in the league looks at this team and wants either our turnover-machine-rookie or our decrepit former starting QB to beat them. Pretty easy strategy.
Still, you can't take SB off the hook here totally. His running style isn't helping. He needs to become a dirty, down hill runner. Just stick his nose in the hole and grind away. But that's just not his style, really. His DNA is to look for the home run.
He's just on the wrong team. And it's too bad. SB needed to be drafted by a team with their offensive structure already in place. Not with a franchise that has completely lost its with how to build a competitive team...
You don't.
No point in continuing the conversation.
Actually, what you stated above is the exact reason why the Saquon pick was a horrible draft pick. Saquon is a very talented athlete and may some day be considered the best RB in the league. He would have been an outstanding late 1st round draft pick for a contender with few holes to fill. One that is simply looking to add another offensive weapon. In other words "a team where the rest of the pieces are performing as well". That certainly doesn't describe the 2018 or 2019 Giants.
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In comment 14716397 lax counsel said:
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In comment 14716346 Go Terps said:
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In comment 14716254 Britt in VA said:
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Saquon had 91 receptions last year. 91! Those are WR numbers.
And he was largely ineffective in those receptions. He was 16th amongst RBs in YPC. The number of receptions was a function of defenses bring happy to allow Eli to check down.
The Barkley pick has been a completely disaster.
Agreed, what is largely not understood on this forum is that Barkley could be a great player and still be a terrible pick. To justify the spot where he was drafted, he needed to change the entire dynamic of the Giants rushing attack himself. He hasn't done that.
The excuses of he doesn't have an oline, or he doesn't have the qb to check into the right pick are bogus. Those are exactly reasons why you never start a rebuild or a build of any type with a rb, because they are so dependent on other positions on the field. It was the wrong pick at the wrong time.
The conclusion that he hasn;t changed the entire dynamic of the rushing attack is based on what exactly? 2019? The guy missed a large chuck of time and was clearly playing injured for several weeks after he returned. He was the offensive ROY last year, so I would say yeah he changed the dynamic of the rushing offense and the offense in geneal last year all by himself. SO what we are going to ignore the dynamic force he was last year because of injury related struggles this year? That's just stupid. People are just so damn dug in on their positions that they ignore everything just to say "Ha, I told you so."
"Dynamic force"? They were a middle of the road offensive team last year and they won 5 games. Also, you claim other people want to ignore his first season, but then you go ahead and say we should just ignore his second season. You sound pretty dug in yourself.
WTF does the teams record have to do with the year he had? Lot's of players have great years on shitty teams.
He was offensive ROY. I'll let that speak for itself as to whether he was a force last year.
I also think that he's been running soft this year after the ankle injury.
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In comment 14716446 Now Mike in MD said:
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In comment 14716397 lax counsel said:
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In comment 14716346 Go Terps said:
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In comment 14716254 Britt in VA said:
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Saquon had 91 receptions last year. 91! Those are WR numbers.
And he was largely ineffective in those receptions. He was 16th amongst RBs in YPC. The number of receptions was a function of defenses bring happy to allow Eli to check down.
The Barkley pick has been a completely disaster.
Agreed, what is largely not understood on this forum is that Barkley could be a great player and still be a terrible pick. To justify the spot where he was drafted, he needed to change the entire dynamic of the Giants rushing attack himself. He hasn't done that.
The excuses of he doesn't have an oline, or he doesn't have the qb to check into the right pick are bogus. Those are exactly reasons why you never start a rebuild or a build of any type with a rb, because they are so dependent on other positions on the field. It was the wrong pick at the wrong time.
The conclusion that he hasn;t changed the entire dynamic of the rushing attack is based on what exactly? 2019? The guy missed a large chuck of time and was clearly playing injured for several weeks after he returned. He was the offensive ROY last year, so I would say yeah he changed the dynamic of the rushing offense and the offense in geneal last year all by himself. SO what we are going to ignore the dynamic force he was last year because of injury related struggles this year? That's just stupid. People are just so damn dug in on their positions that they ignore everything just to say "Ha, I told you so."
"Dynamic force"? They were a middle of the road offensive team last year and they won 5 games. Also, you claim other people want to ignore his first season, but then you go ahead and say we should just ignore his second season. You sound pretty dug in yourself.
WTF does the teams record have to do with the year he had? Lot's of players have great years on shitty teams.
He was offensive ROY. I'll let that speak for itself as to whether he was a force last year.
Are we playing John Madden football or are we trying to win NFL games on Sundays? Sometimes I don't know with how you guys talk about Mr. Generational.
You don't.
No point in continuing the conversation.
The proof is in the pudding that he had no impact. The offense was still awful, and the team still sucked.
BPA was Lamar Jackson. He was a better college player than Barkley, and is a better pro than Barkley. All at a critical position.
But drafting him would have required creativity and moving on from a sacred cow in Eli, so while I dreamt about it at the time I knew it was only a dream. The Giants aren't run by creative people, and sentimentality influences on field decisions.
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is an impact player. Especially on a team where the rest of the pieces are performing as well.
You don't.
No point in continuing the conversation.
Actually, what you stated above is the exact reason why the Saquon pick was a horrible draft pick. Saquon is a very talented athlete and may some day be considered the best RB in the league. He would have been an outstanding late 1st round draft pick for a contender with few holes to fill. One that is simply looking to add another offensive weapon. In other words "a team where the rest of the pieces are performing as well". That certainly doesn't describe the 2018 or 2019 Giants.
What does that have to do with anything? So we should only pick great players once the team becomes good? How about this instead: you pick a guy who you think can be one of the top players ever at his position (btw that idea was supported by Sy who had him as his highest rated prospect in a long time) with the hope that you can turn the team around and optimize that player's ability. Isn't it at least possible that this is a cogent approach?
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is an impact player. Especially on a team where the rest of the pieces are performing as well.
You don't.
No point in continuing the conversation.
The proof is in the pudding that he had no impact. The offense was still awful, and the team still sucked.
BPA was Lamar Jackson. He was a better college player than Barkley, and is a better pro than Barkley. All at a critical position.
But drafting him would have required creativity and moving on from a sacred cow in Eli, so while I dreamt about it at the time I knew it was only a dream. The Giants aren't run by creative people, and sentimentality influences on field decisions.
Hyperbole undercuts your point. The Giants were ranked 17th in offense last year with shit WRs, por OL, and an essentially done Eli. I think it's fair to say that SB was the primary moving force behind that
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In comment 14716444 Britt in VA said:
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is an impact player. Especially on a team where the rest of the pieces are performing as well.
You don't.
No point in continuing the conversation.
Actually, what you stated above is the exact reason why the Saquon pick was a horrible draft pick. Saquon is a very talented athlete and may some day be considered the best RB in the league. He would have been an outstanding late 1st round draft pick for a contender with few holes to fill. One that is simply looking to add another offensive weapon. In other words "a team where the rest of the pieces are performing as well". That certainly doesn't describe the 2018 or 2019 Giants.
What does that have to do with anything? So we should only pick great players once the team becomes good? How about this instead: you pick a guy who you think can be one of the top players ever at his position (btw that idea was supported by Sy who had him as his highest rated prospect in a long time) with the hope that you can turn the team around and optimize that player's ability. Isn't it at least possible that this is a cogent approach?
It has pretty much everything to do with it. When you have a fairly sizable rebuild job in front of you, RB is the last place you should start. Good to great RBs can be had on day 2 of the draft every year. So in answer to your question, no, I don't think it was a cogent approach at all - due to positional draft value.
Wtf can we still not run a decent screen pass? The last 10 years, we were told Eli doesn’t throw the screen well. He doesn’t, that’s true, but Jones wasn’t exactly dazzling them with screens to Barkley either.
You can see what kind of attention he gets as a decoy when we do the stupid end around crap with Shepherd.
100% agree and I was going to type the same thing.
I see RBs running all sorts of pass patterns whereas the thinking with Barkley seems to be to just dump it off. No creativity at all.
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Yet, we rarely see him used with a variety of routes. How about angle routes, wheel routes, a bubble screen? Anything else besides the usual dump off and pray he makes three guys miss?
Wtf can we still not run a decent screen pass? The last 10 years, we were told Eli doesn’t throw the screen well. He doesn’t, that’s true, but Jones wasn’t exactly dazzling them with screens to Barkley either.
You can see what kind of attention he gets as a decoy when we do the stupid end around crap with Shepherd.
100% agree and I was going to type the same thing.
I see RBs running all sorts of pass patterns whereas the thinking with Barkley seems to be to just dump it off. No creativity at all.
Who needs creativity when you and your thighs have been touched by the hand of God.
But how many Toyotas and how much Dunkin Donuts would Lamar sell as a Giant?
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In comment 14716444 Britt in VA said:
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is an impact player. Especially on a team where the rest of the pieces are performing as well.
You don't.
No point in continuing the conversation.
The proof is in the pudding that he had no impact. The offense was still awful, and the team still sucked.
BPA was Lamar Jackson. He was a better college player than Barkley, and is a better pro than Barkley. All at a critical position.
But drafting him would have required creativity and moving on from a sacred cow in Eli, so while I dreamt about it at the time I knew it was only a dream. The Giants aren't run by creative people, and sentimentality influences on field decisions.
Hyperbole undercuts your point. The Giants were ranked 17th in offense last year with shit WRs, por OL, and an essentially done Eli. I think it's fair to say that SB was the primary moving force behind that
Speaking of Hyperbole...
Shit WRs least year?
They still had OBJ, SS was playing well, and whatever EE is, he was in the midst of is best season.
Barkley was has been Boom or bust his whole life. Netting 25 yards on 15 rushes, and having 1 for 80 gets Barkley some gaudy stats and a nice highlight reel moment, but the 15 bad runs really hurts the team far more than the 1 explosive play helps.
It's funny you mention that, I've seem some on here complain about Mayfield's commercial time, as if he hasn't earned it.
Not a peep about Saquon "literately Barry Sander, Gayle Sayers, and Marshall Faulk and rolled into one player" Barkley.
This year he is averaging 19.5 touches per game, For comparison other top backs such as Christian McCaffrey are averaging 25.5 touches per game, Leonard Fournette 23.3, Dalvin Cook is averaging 22.4, Nick Chubb 22, Zeke Elliot 22.
Not all of these guys are on good teams. The Panthers, Browns, and Jaguars especially have been playing from behind pretty consistently yet have still found ways to get the ball to their bell cow back.
Shurmur just hasn't seemed capable of finding ways to maximize the talent on the roster. The lack of creativity getting Jones on the move rather than just standing stationary in the pocket is one example, and this lack of production/usage from Barkley is another.
Barkley's 2018 receiving numbers were massively inflated by meaningless check downs on third and long. He wasn't changing games and dictating positive down and distances as a receiver.
It's yet another example of organizational failure. Shurmur on Sundays, but also the front office. Barkley is the jewel if Gettleman's tenure; how is the team not built entirely around him?
Speaking of Hyperbole...
Shit WRs least year?
They still had OBJ, SS was playing well, and whatever EE is, he was in the midst of is best season.
Barkley was has been Boom or bust his whole life. Netting 25 yards on 15 rushes, and having 1 for 80 gets Barkley some gaudy stats and a nice highlight reel moment, but the 15 bad runs really hurts the team far more than the 1 explosive play helps.
That was the knock on him on college. One critique I saw of him was that he would not get you the tough two or three yards you may need because in his mind, he is always trying to get 20 or 30.
I remember watching him in person in a game at Northwestern during that 2017 season, pretty much a squad made of mostly of dudes where maybe one guy will make it to the NFL, if that. For most of the game, he was being bottled up and stopped by their defense.
It wasn't until late in the 3rd quarter Barkley rips off a 50+ yard TD to break the game open. But that was his only major contribution to the proceedings. He finished with 73 yards on 16 carries looking back now at the box score. That meant in the other 15 runs, he got 20 yards. That type of output is very similar to what we see from him at the pro level.
It does have me wondering if we will truly see him as a consistent runner who fights to get tough yards, or if he is simply a "three outcome" guy similar in baseball. Only time will tell.
Speaking of Hyperbole...
Shit WRs least year?
They still had OBJ, SS was playing well, and whatever EE is, he was in the midst of is best season.
Barkley was has been Boom or bust his whole life. Netting 25 yards on 15 rushes, and having 1 for 80 gets Barkley some gaudy stats and a nice highlight reel moment, but the 15 bad runs really hurts the team far more than the 1 explosive play helps.
That was the knock on him on college. One critique I saw of him was that he would not get you the tough two or three yards you may need because in his mind, he is always trying to get 20 or 30.
I remember watching him in person in a game at Northwestern during that 2017 season, pretty much a squad made of mostly of dudes where maybe one guy will make it to the NFL, if that. For most of the game, he was being bottled up and stopped by their defense.
It wasn't until late in the 3rd quarter Barkley rips off a 50+ yard TD to break the game open. But that was his only major contribution to the proceedings. He finished with 73 yards on 16 carries looking back now at the box score. That meant in the other 15 runs, he got 20 yards. That type of output is very similar to what we see from him at the pro level.
It does have me wondering if we will truly see him as a consistent runner who fights to get tough yards, or if he is simply a "three outcome" guy similar in baseball. Only time will tell.
We can complicate this game all we want, analytics, etc. but it will always be a blocking and tackling game. And there will never be a defense for a great running game with built in play action. You couldnt defend it in 1985 and you cant defend it now.
What you can't do if your the Giants is run Barkley into the ground. Relying on Gallman as the #2 (since demoted) was a bad decision without 20/20 hindsight. Gallman is a bit player who can't play in half the situations and half the playbook. The Giants need to get 2 more capable RBs behind Barkley and feed them the ball for 16 weeks.
And...oh yeah....a sledgehammer FB too.
I'm not expecting Jacobs - Ward - Bradshaw & Hedgecock but we need more than just Barkley.
That was the knock on him on college. One critique I saw of him was that he would not get you the tough two or three yards you may need because in his mind, he is always trying to get 20 or 30.
I remember watching him in person in a game at Northwestern during that 2017 season, pretty much a squad made of mostly of dudes where maybe one guy will make it to the NFL, if that. For most of the game, he was being bottled up and stopped by their defense.
It wasn't until late in the 3rd quarter Barkley rips off a 50+ yard TD to break the game open. But that was his only major contribution to the proceedings. He finished with 73 yards on 16 carries looking back now at the box score. That meant in the other 15 runs, he got 20 yards. That type of output is very similar to what we see from him at the pro level.
It does have me wondering if we will truly see him as a consistent runner who fights to get tough yards, or if he is simply a "three outcome" guy similar in baseball. Only time will tell.
Agreed BBC, I have been highlighting this fault in Barkley since before the draft.
People would tell me all about how Barkley will force teams to move their safety or how he will cause match up difficulties, as if they really knew something about football.
The problem is when you have a guy like Barkley, the team tends to rely on him to consistently put up numbers. But that is not Barkley's game. And if he kills drives with a preponderance of stuffed runs or TFLs, he kills way more drives than can be compensated for by the explosive plays. Despite that you have a large contingent of the fan base saying they should use him MORE! I think the coaches have realized that they can't rely on him. It's the definition of a coach killer.
And, barring some team having a good offensive line, Barkley is not a bell cow RB. Which is what you'd want if you were going to waste a pick on a RB at #2. He's looking for the big play, but in a winning offense, you want consistency from the RB, not 1 yard, -1 yard, 1 yard, 20 years. You also want good pass blocking. Barkley is terrible at this.
Barkley may look like a bell cow RB, he might be built like one, but he's not. People have pointed out up above in this thread how this was something that was evident even back at Penn State.
And now, because of Shurmur's play calling and his earlier injury, the problem is exacerbated because he's indecisive on the field now.
A creative coach could use Barkley though for what he could be good at - a gadget player that you line up at various places on the field to create mismatches. Sometimes in the backfield, sometimes split wide. Shurmur has made some attempt at this here and there but hasn't been very successful at it.
You may not believe it, but arniefez is correct. We actually have a need at RB. Barkley alone is not the answer.
What do we do with Barkley? Hopefully the next coach realizes how to use him, and when his contract is up, we either offer him what a good gadget player is worth or let him move on. Like the Leonard Williams picks Gettleman wasted, the #2 pick in the draft last year is wasted. But make the best of a bad situation.
And, barring some team having a good offensive line, Barkley is not a bell cow RB. Which is what you'd want if you were going to waste a pick on a RB at #2. He's looking for the big play, but in a winning offense, you want consistency from the RB, not 1 yard, -1 yard, 1 yard, 20 years. You also want good pass blocking. Barkley is terrible at this.
Barkley may look like a bell cow RB, he might be built like one, but he's not. People have pointed out up above in this thread how this was something that was evident even back at Penn State.
And now, because of Shurmur's play calling and his earlier injury, the problem is exacerbated because he's indecisive on the field now.
A creative coach could use Barkley though for what he could be good at - a gadget player that you line up at various places on the field to create mismatches. Sometimes in the backfield, sometimes split wide. Shurmur has made some attempt at this here and there but hasn't been very successful at it.
You may not believe it, but arniefez is correct. We actually have a need at RB. Barkley alone is not the answer.
What do we do with Barkley? Hopefully the next coach realizes how to use him, and when his contract is up, we either offer him what a good gadget player is worth or let him move on. Like the Leonard Williams picks Gettleman wasted, the #2 pick in the draft last year is wasted. But make the best of a bad situation.
Agreed. Barkley is uber talented in space. It's just never that easy to get a player like him in space unless you are a very good team to begin with. Otherwise the opposition just keys on him and makes sure there are always multiple tacklers in the vicinity if he gets the ball.
Even worse, he was 41st out of 47 qualifying RBs last year in rushing efficiency. This year he is dead last in the department.
I'd be curious where you're getting your stats.
For 2018, Next Gen has Barkley ranked 14th in running efficiency out of 56 qualifying (minimum 85 attempts).
For 2019, he is ranked 29th out of 46 (minimum 75 attempts).
nextgen - ( New Window )
Barkley's 2018 receiving numbers were massively inflated by meaningless check downs on third and long. He wasn't changing games and dictating positive down and distances as a receiver.
It's yet another example of organizational failure. Shurmur on Sundays, but also the front office. Barkley is the jewel if Gettleman's tenure; how is the team not built entirely around him?
So, wha' happened? I have my own hypothesis but would be interested in seeing what everyone else says.
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It's when he touches the ball. There's all kinds of data out there on the benefits of throwing the ball to running backs on first down. How many times do we do that?
Barkley's 2018 receiving numbers were massively inflated by meaningless check downs on third and long. He wasn't changing games and dictating positive down and distances as a receiver.
It's yet another example of organizational failure. Shurmur on Sundays, but also the front office. Barkley is the jewel if Gettleman's tenure; how is the team not built entirely around him?
I think it is built around him. We drafted a qb who is supposed to be an accurate short passer. We have receivers who are not field stretchers but are supposed to be chain movers. We went out and got "hog mollies" on the o-line and hired a coach whose most recent success as an OC was the rushing Vikings.
So, wha' happened? I have my own hypothesis but would be interested in seeing what everyone else says.
I disagree with this, for the simple reason that this team isn't "built" around anyone. That implies some unified philosophy or plan that Gettleman clearly does not have. (The Leonard Williams trade is the smoking gun proving that Gettleman has no plan).
In fact, I think Barkley was drafted for one purpose and one purpose only - to get the best possible weapon to add to the offense to make one last run with Eli. Gettleman and the Maras decided it was worth the #2 overall pick to see if this was possible. When that plan went belly up, Gettleman traded off a few players - but did so haphazardly (didn't trade Collins at all, Jenkins is are still on the roster, etc). With that in mind, I do believe Gettleman believes Barkley is generational or whatever, and that does cloud how this team approaches him in particular.
No, Mike Shula is the OC.
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that's a big time indictment of Shurmur, who is both OC and HC.
No, Mike Shula is the OC.
Somebody tell me what Mike Shula does besides drawing a paycheck because daddy won 300 games decades ago.
And, barring some team having a good offensive line, Barkley is not a bell cow RB. Which is what you'd want if you were going to waste a pick on a RB at #2. He's looking for the big play, but in a winning offense, you want consistency from the RB, not 1 yard, -1 yard, 1 yard, 20 years. You also want good pass blocking. Barkley is terrible at this.
Barkley may look like a bell cow RB, he might be built like one, but he's not. People have pointed out up above in this thread how this was something that was evident even back at Penn State.
Barkley would work with certain coaches in certain offenses.
For example, if he was with Mike Martz on that old Rams scheme, you could see him used like the way he used Marshall Faulk.
Speaking of Faulk, that was one of the criticisms Bill Polian and the Colts offensive staff had of him when he was in Indianapolis, which led (in addition to his contract) them trading him to the Rams.
This is what he said in his book, "The Game Plan: The Art Of Building A Winning Football Team"
Is Barkley simply a bigger version of Marshall Faulk? The short yardage and goal line running problems are still issues for us even though his physical build suggests that shouldn't be the case.
As it turned out, Edgerrin James fit the Colts offense better and may end up also in the Hall of Fame. So the trade worked out.
It does make me wonder when a different coach comes in here if he concludes the same thing about Barkley that we are discussing right now and if at some point, he isn't long for this team and is eventually traded.
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Even worse, he was 41st out of 47 qualifying RBs last year in rushing efficiency. This year he is dead last in the department.
I'd be curious where you're getting your stats.
For 2018, Next Gen has Barkley ranked 14th in running efficiency out of 56 qualifying (minimum 85 attempts).
For 2019, he is ranked 29th out of 46 (minimum 75 attempts).
nextgen - ( New Window )
I got it from Football Outsiders...
this is 2018:
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb/2018
this is 2019
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb/2018
The last time I checked this for 2019, he was 33rd out of 33... Its been updated, he is now 36th out of 38... You have to click the "Suc Rate" column to get it to sort by that.
https://www.footballoutsiders.com/stats/rb/2019
That they are doing is trying to take total distance including side to side, divided by total rushing yards. TO try and figure out if the player is N/S runner. It gets blown up by long explosive runs. It doesn't seem to measure anything significant to me.
nextgen definition
Efficiency (EFF)
Rushing efficiency is calculated by taking the total distance a player traveled on rushing plays as a ball carrier according to Next Gen Stats (measured in yards) per rushing yards gained. The lower the number, the more of a North/South runner.
FO definition (they call it success rate, many other sites call it efficiency)
Success Rate. This number represents the player's consistency, measured by successful running plays (the definition of success being different based on down and distance) divided by total running plays.
Their link to the further definition is broken but, the usual definition of success is 40% or more of yards needed for a 1st down on first down. 50% or more on second. And a 1st down on third.
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In fact, I think Barkley was drafted for one purpose and one purpose only - to get the best possible weapon to add to the offense to make one last run with Eli. Gettleman and the Maras decided it was worth the #2 overall pick to see if this was possible. When that plan went belly up, Gettleman traded off a few players - but did so haphazardly (didn't trade Collins at all, Jenkins is are still on the roster, etc). With that in mind, I do believe Gettleman believes Barkley is generational or whatever, and that does cloud how this team approaches him in particular.
This is 100% what happened. It was an incredibly short sighted plan. As many of us stated from the beginning, if they did not like the QBs, they should have traded out and built up the rest of the roster. We know Buffalo was in contact with the Giants trying to trade up in front of the Jets and they had 2 first round picks that year.
FO definition (they call it success rate, many other sites call it efficiency)
Success Rate. This number represents the player's consistency, measured by successful running plays (the definition of success being different based on down and distance) divided by total running plays.
Thank you, appreciate.
I did google "Football Outsiders/efficiency" on the hunch that you might have gotten the stat from there but, as you say, the pertinent term they use is "success rate," so I only got a hit for team efficiency, not individual.
I hate to nitpick playcalling as I believe the problem go so much deeper but his playcalling is just fucking brutal at times. Worse, his philosophy.
3rd and 4 in a pivotal moment of the mnf at Philly. you’ve got Barkley gaining more and more traction as the game progresses. Big big moment second half and shurmur passes. Doesn’t convert as usual...
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FO definition (they call it success rate, many other sites call it efficiency)
Success Rate. This number represents the player's consistency, measured by successful running plays (the definition of success being different based on down and distance) divided by total running plays.
Thank you, appreciate.
I did google "Football Outsiders/efficiency" on the hunch that you might have gotten the stat from there but, as you say, the pertinent term they use is "success rate," so I only got a hit for team efficiency, not individual.
Anytime! :)
I hate to nitpick playcalling as I believe the problem go so much deeper but his playcalling is just fucking brutal at times. Worse, his philosophy.
3rd and 4 in a pivotal moment of the mnf at Philly. you’ve got Barkley gaining more and more traction as the game progresses. Big big moment second half and shurmur passes. Doesn’t convert as usual...
This. There's a million problems no matter how you slice it
But Shurmur's use of Barkley, Engram, Slayton after that half (unless someone wants to speak to them taking him away on D, which I doubt b/c he was barely targeted), shit even his use of DJ after all that talk about a QB w/ legs (guy rolls Eli out more than DJ, wtf?)...at the LEAST he needs to give up playcalling or even playcall planning. On 3rd & 1 he's more likely to go to Penney, or throw to fucking Kaden Smith while ignoring everyone else. Not one screen to your best athlete(s)? Or yet another stop / stick route to EE on an LB, where his quicks and speed are the advantage...derp
He could literally blindly copy the playcall / design of a team like say ATL (who sucks at running) and Barkley would have his 1000 easy even if they still lost most games. Piss poor usage running him up the middle w/ no real help from scheme on 8 man boxes. EVERY FUCKING TIME in the same downs & distances. Just awful
You put a healthy SB behind Dallas’s OL and he’d be a terror. But he’s a player that is great in space but he’s playing in a phone booth.
This is one of the main crimes of this OL, and the way he’s used.