As noted earlier, Pauline’s sources have told him that if the Giants head coaching job opens up, he’s interested in the position. However, Allbright reports that Rhule would want near-total authority. Would Giants general manager Dave Gettleman be willing to concede power to Rhule?
but I do not want him to basically be the HC and GM. Few can handle that much responsibility. Now I completely agree that he should be the one to choose his entire staff. The Jets were fools for forcing a staff on him.
As noted earlier, Pauline’s sources have told him that if the Giants head coaching job opens up, he’s interested in the position. However, Allbright reports that Rhule would want near-total authority. Would Giants general manager Dave Gettleman be willing to concede power to Rhule?
I think this is exactly why you're hearing reports the DG is in trouble. because they'd do it for Rhule
As noted earlier, Pauline’s sources have told him that if the Giants head coaching job opens up, he’s interested in the position. However, Allbright reports that Rhule would want near-total authority. Would Giants general manager Dave Gettleman be willing to concede power to Rhule?
I think this is exactly why you're hearing reports the DG is in trouble. because they'd do it for Rhule
Agreed, I think they know that some of the candidates they like to replace Shurmur will want final say over the roster which is something that Gettleman will not be willing to do.
Would ownership go with him as an unknown in the NFL? Â
or would they go with the established veteran coach that has had success, like Rivera. Two coaches in a row gone after two years. Taking a flyer on Rhule would be a risk. He’s turned around College programs, but the NFL is a different animal altogether. As much as I like Rhule, I don’t think ownership would go in that direction and also give him ultimate control on top of it all?!
I think this is exactly why you're hearing reports the DG is in trouble. because they'd do it for Rhule
I'm not a Rhule guy, but I'd be all for a person wearing both hats - HC and GM.
Something like this would require a major overhaul in football operations at Jints Central. But I think they are too stuck in the their box to take this chance...
As noted earlier, Pauline’s sources have told him that if the Giants head coaching job opens up, he’s interested in the position. However, Allbright reports that Rhule would want near-total authority. Would Giants general manager Dave Gettleman be willing to concede power to Rhule?
I think this is exactly why you're hearing reports the DG is in trouble. because they'd do it for Rhule
I like DG, but would absolutely consider telling DG to cede some control with an eye to all of it transitioning to Rhule after DG retires. If he said no, then I’d thank him for his time.
Rhule is my first choice. Giants better be really fucking smart here. If they love this guy, and he checks A LOT of boxes, don’t get too cute. Let rhule hire his own staff. Give the guy what he wants and be done with it.
I like DG, but would absolutely consider telling DG to cede some control with an eye to all of it transitioning to Rhule after DG retires. If he said no, then I’d thank him for his time.
Ideal offseason, Nick Caserio as GM with Rhule as HC.
1 - Previous ties to the organization while at the same time would represent significant change from the current team. This should satisfy Mara and Tisch
2 - Prior head coaching experience. He's not a coordinator who's being promoted. He has head coaching experience at 2 different schools and turned around both programs
Of course it is. They're the frickin NY Giants. I also understand his desire for control. If you're family and economic success are on the line why would you trust anyone else with your fate?
This may now be a change the franchise would consider. Mara/Tisch may be able to convince DG to take on a lower profile roll with personnel in order to bring in an elite coaching candidate.
As noted earlier, Pauline’s sources have told him that if the Giants head coaching job opens up, he’s interested in the position. However, Allbright reports that Rhule would want near-total authority. Would Giants general manager Dave Gettleman be willing to concede power to Rhule?
Well see. Giants hired a big fine HC before in coughlin and even Reeves. Stranger things have happened.
He will have a say in who the ultimate GM is and they will work together based on shared philosophy. The GM can be hired AFTER the coach.
Correct. Very similar to how Seattle hired Pete Carroll.
Carroll picked the GM John Schneider, who has been with him since Day 1. Schneider does all the GM stuff and then runs it by Carroll. They then come to a consensus.
As it appears, the Giants have Gettleman, who picks the players while Shurmur sits in the corner. Of course, this can become an issue when you are talking about "hog mollies" and toughness and you have a coach who loves to put the ball up in the air more than run it. This can lead to players on your roster that are mismatched based on the philosophies of the GM and the HC.
1 - Previous ties to the organization while at the same time would represent significant change from the current team. This should satisfy Mara and Tisch
2 - Prior head coaching experience. He's not a coordinator who's being promoted. He has head coaching experience at 2 different schools and turned around both programs
3 - Local guy with roots to NYC
Because of #1, I want to disqualify Rhule. I'm so tired of these prerequisites that someone has to have worked for the Giants, grew up in the northeast, coached at a college in the northeast, was a Giant fan, etc.
or would they go with the established veteran coach that has had success, like Rivera. Two coaches in a row gone after two years. Taking a flyer on Rhule would be a risk. He’s turned around College programs, but the NFL is a different animal altogether. As much as I like Rhule, I don’t think ownership would go in that direction and also give him ultimate control on top of it all?!
Rhule has so many more legit pelts than both shurm and mcadoo combined. He’s a leader. He’s done nothing but resurrect teams in his own image. Shurm and Big Ben never came close to that. Yea he’s a risk in the college HC sense but every candidate comes with risk or warts.
He will have a say in who the ultimate GM is and they will work together based on shared philosophy. The GM can be hired AFTER the coach.
Correct. Very similar to how Seattle hired Pete Carroll.
Carroll picked the GM John Schneider, who has been with him since Day 1. Schneider does all the GM stuff and then runs it by Carroll. They then come to a consensus.
As it appears, the Giants have Gettleman, who picks the players while Shurmur sits in the corner. Of course, this can become an issue when you are talking about "hog mollies" and toughness and you have a coach who loves to put the ball up in the air more than run it. This can lead to players on your roster that are mismatched based on the philosophies of the GM and the HC.
Very good point. Buffalo followed a similar model. The GM and coach are nearly indistinguishable in philosophy.
1 - Previous ties to the organization while at the same time would represent significant change from the current team. This should satisfy Mara and Tisch
2 - Prior head coaching experience. He's not a coordinator who's being promoted. He has head coaching experience at 2 different schools and turned around both programs
3 - Local guy with roots to NYC
Because of #1, I want to disqualify Rhule. I'm so tired of these prerequisites that someone has to have worked for the Giants, grew up in the northeast, coached at a college in the northeast, was a Giant fan, etc.
Why are any of those advantages?
Re #1 - he was the assistant offensive line coach. i wouldn't hold that against him lol. but when you look at the current ownership, you have 1 owner who likes familiarity and another who wants change. they def need change. i think this might be enough to placate mara and do what needs to be done
I honestly just don't know enough about the guy. I just know that he's the Baylor coach and they're the #7 team in the country. Literally all I know. Why is he the man for the job? And why are we so sure his talents will translate as an NFL HC (and possibly GM)?
1 - Previous ties to the organization while at the same time would represent significant change from the current team. This should satisfy Mara and Tisch
2 - Prior head coaching experience. He's not a coordinator who's being promoted. He has head coaching experience at 2 different schools and turned around both programs
3 - Local guy with roots to NYC
Because of #1, I want to disqualify Rhule. I'm so tired of these prerequisites that someone has to have worked for the Giants, grew up in the northeast, coached at a college in the northeast, was a Giant fan, etc.
Why are any of those advantages?
Dude just fucking stop already. Belichick has ties too you gonna fucking disqualify him too???
This shitty wreck of a franchise has more championships than MOST. Yes they suck and have for years now but just stop with this stupid act.
Correct. Very similar to how Seattle hired Pete Carroll.
Carroll picked the GM John Schneider, who has been with him since Day 1. Schneider does all the GM stuff and then runs it by Carroll. They then come to a consensus.
Just to be clear, Carroll didn't pick his own GM. Leiweke gave him a list of four candidates and Carroll had to pick the one he wanted. Which was Scheider.
I honestly just don't know enough about the guy. I just know that he's the Baylor coach and they're the #7 team in the country. Literally all I know. Why is he the man for the job? And why are we so sure his talents will translate as an NFL HC (and possibly GM)?
One of the strengths appears to be his success with reclamation projects - like Baylor and Temple.
But Al Golden built Temple first. It slipped after he left, and Rhule got it back on track, but Golden built the house and foundation...
Baylor? Briles, before he got caught up in the assault scandal, built them into a powerhouse. He built a great recruiting pipeline. The scandal set the university back but top players still wanted to attend. So Rhule essentially restored their credit and got the lights back on...but he didn't built them. Briles did.
When you read the article it sounds more like a reference to his sticking point when interviewing with the Jets, after the Jets told him that he would not be the final say on who his assistant coaches would be. I would imagine this was about Gregg Williams as DC. The Jets finalized the hiring of Gase and Williams on the same day last January.
Everything I’ve read about Rhule says he is a big team culture and character guy, part of the reason he took on the Baylor challenge. No way Williams and Rhule could have existed in the same space. Williams would have been undoing everything Rhule was trying to create. Notice the comment about not willing to be in an “arranged marriage”. Assuming marriage means two people here, it again sounds like he may have been opposed to having Williams as DC.
This may not have to do with player personnel decisions
The more i agree that the head coach might need to be the most important guy in the organization. The GM needs to be in lockstep with the coach. This doesn’t sound so bad.
Don’t know if Rhule is the guy but I’d love to see them give him a shot. You need a “culture creator” you need a guy to create and identity. Giants are bad enough and young enough where a college approach might work out. And he’s a pro guy anyway.
When you read the article it sounds more like a reference to his sticking point when interviewing with the Jets, after the Jets told him that he would not be the final say on who his assistant coaches would be. I would imagine this was about Gregg Williams as DC. The Jets finalized the hiring of Gase and Williams on the same day last January.
The article does mention near total control when discussing the unlikelihood of Rhule working with Gettleman. We all know Gettleman isn't going to relinquish power over to a young coach with no NFL head coaching experience.
When you read the article it sounds more like a reference to his sticking point when interviewing with the Jets, after the Jets told him that he would not be the final say on who his assistant coaches would be. I would imagine this was about Gregg Williams as DC. The Jets finalized the hiring of Gase and Williams on the same day last January.
The article does mention near total control when discussing the unlikelihood of Rhule working with Gettleman. We all know Gettleman isn't going to relinquish power over to a young coach with no NFL head coaching experience.
I believe that reference is inserted by the writer and is not a direct quote or citation from the source.
You certainly could be right. Rhule may want some personnel control and Gettleman may not want that. But it’s not really Gettleman’s call.
I believe that reference is inserted by the writer and is not a direct quote or citation from the source.
You certainly could be right. Rhule may want some personnel control and Gettleman may not want that. But it’s not really Gettleman’s call.
Yeah I just saw that, I'm hoping that he is willing to settle for just having full autonomy when it comes to his staff especially if the Giants replace Gettleman and have a shot at Nick Caserio. Obviously the new GM will listen to Rhule on the type of players he wants for his scheme but I would prefer the GM to have final say to take pressure off of the HC.
One of the benefits of hiring a successful college coach is that they have been in the recruiting business for the last several years and they have insights on the players who will be drafted for the next few years because they have already scouted them.
This was huge for JJ in Dallas. I saw him talk about it in an interview once. He knew Aikman, Smith, etc. from their high school and college days. This would be a reason to give Rhule total control if he comes here.
don't see the Giants hiring Rhule. His buyout from Baylor is enormous IIRC.
From what I understand, the enormous buyout number is for other college jobs. The number for an NFL job is supposedly dramatically less. But I don't have a source to cite, unfortunately.
Yeah I'll pass, the NFL is entirely different game for each of those positions. I prefer a head coach with (successful) NFL experience anyway. Rivera is the guy, he's proven to be a good head coach at this level. We cant afford any more experimentation.
Shurmur had a hell of a resume and prior coaching experience Â
Scoffing at the idea of college guys doesn't seem productive when there really isn't much of an indicator of who's going to be a success at coaching at this level. Guys have come from college and had success. Lifelong, high level NFL coordinators have been flaming disasters.
One of the benefits of hiring a successful college coach is that they have been in the recruiting business for the last several years and they have insights on the players who will be drafted for the next few years because they have already scouted them.
This was huge for JJ in Dallas. I saw him talk about it in an interview once. He knew Aikman, Smith, etc. from their high school and college days. This would be a reason to give Rhule total control if he comes here.
Works for me. Can'tbe any worse than what we've got now. Give Rhule a candidate that will work in lock step with him a la Pete Carrol and Schneider in Seattle.
I could see a scenario where they bring him in and DG retires in 2 years and turn it over to him. keep in mind Rhule has never had total control at any of his College jobs. A big risk to allow it at the Pro level
RE: I don't think a coach who was never a HC in the NFL Â
I could see a scenario where they bring him in and DG retires in 2 years and turn it over to him. keep in mind Rhule has never had total control at any of his College jobs. A big risk to allow it at the Pro level
What would we be risking? The Giants are basically an expansion operation, bereft of talent, coaching, and leadership.
What's Rhule going to do, make the Giants the 33rd best team in the NFL over the last four years?
Why people are so resistant to giving a HC his choice of GM.
In my mind, this makes the hiring and firing process easier. If the HC fails, there aren't any excuses.
He failed because he sucked.
He failed because the guy he asked you to hire sucked.
or he failed because his coaching sucks.
What's the big deal about making sure that these guys are tied together in the future? Maybe the GM is an excellent drafter but the team underperforms. Do you think for one second this GM would say
"well mr owner, I've held up my end of the bargain but the coach is sub par. But we got hired together-- you should fire both of us"
or
if the coach has over performed with complete busts as first round draft picks?
"well mr owner. we've over achieved. Ive got 1 title and an 8-8 season. But our drafting is complete trash, fire both of us"
Hire a guy and let him pick a GM he's comfortable working with. It's not a big deal unless you are a Gettleshitter apologist.
RE: I don't think a coach who was never a HC in the NFL Â
I could see a scenario where they bring him in and DG retires in 2 years and turn it over to him. keep in mind Rhule has never had total control at any of his College jobs. A big risk to allow it at the Pro level
Why are you discussing his request in extremes?
No one should be given total control. But its clear that if the condition of hiring him is him having someone as GM that he would LIKE to work with, how is that a deal breaker?
The more i agree that the head coach might need to be the most important guy in the organization. The GM needs to be in lockstep with the coach. This doesn’t sound so bad.
Don’t know if Rhule is the guy but I’d love to see them give him a shot. You need a “culture creator” you need a guy to create and identity. Giants are bad enough and young enough where a college approach might work out. And he’s a pro guy anyway.
Only a moronic organization would ask to hire a guy
but knee cap him by saying
"well you get no say in roster
andor
you get no say in assistants
andor
you get no say in coordinators"
use your fucking brain people. to request that he has a GM he sees as his ally is not a bad thing.
or would they go with the established veteran coach that has had success, like Rivera. Two coaches in a row gone after two years. Taking a flyer on Rhule would be a risk. He’s turned around College programs, but the NFL is a different animal altogether. As much as I like Rhule, I don’t think ownership would go in that direction and also give him ultimate control on top of it all?!
how many 3-13 seasons do you need to go through to realize that a retread of a retread probably isn't the answer to building a sustainably winning team?
The more i agree that the head coach might need to be the most important guy in the organization. The GM needs to be in lockstep with the coach. This doesn’t sound so bad.
Don’t know if Rhule is the guy but I’d love to see them give him a shot. You need a “culture creator” you need a guy to create and identity. Giants are bad enough and young enough where a college approach might work out. And he’s a pro guy anyway.
The truth is we need to get rid of napping boomers that do stupid shit like
trading for a mLB that is paid a ton of $ but isn't even an avg player for his position
trading for a free agent and giving up a #63 pick when your record is 2-7
signing Jonathan Steward and then drafting Barkley-- having the highest allocation to RB in the league
hanging Nate Solder over the neck of Eli and Mara
Drafting BJ Hill and Dalvin Tomlinson and sidelining them after 1 year to trade for a FA
drafting a man coverage CB when your coordinator will ask him to play zone
It's not about "we need a college guy" or "system guy" or "managing guy"
we need someone whose not going to let John Mara get robbed by the Jets & manage the team like its 2020 and not 1995.
He never would have even interviewed with the Jets.
Rhule would probably take the job under the current structure, but I'd be fine with letting him either pick his own GM or giving him veto power over any of Mara's GM recommendations.
One, why is Caserio held in such high regard? Is it because he is next in line of NE management? There have been other management types to leave NE and have not done well. Also, how much do any of us know about these guys? Basically zero. So, I am not all gung who about Caserio.
Two, I doubt Rhule gets full control. That is crazy. However, as others have pointed out it makes sense that he wants to pick his staff like any normal coach would and probably wants to have say in the acquisition of players but not necessarily full control.
Finally, look at sports as a parallel example on the field. The allstar cast rarely wins. Same goes for management. What is more important than getting the best people at their positions is getting people that are on the same page and work in unison. This doesn't mean yes men. Far from it. It does mean that both share the same vision and work their way toward that goal with the same principles to achieve that goal.
I think having control over picking your assistants makes total sense. The Jets are crazy.
I don't think the Mara's will cede total control on player acquisition. Thinking they want a check and balance there and a decision by consensus. Which is reasonable.
boy do the arguments change on this site depending on how the wind Â
blows, I've been reading for years that Reese didn't pick the players himself, that Coughlin had a lot of input...now I'm hearing that the Giants way doesn't work because they don't give the head coach enough input into his roster...pick one, you can't have both.
absolutely be in lockstep as to the type of team that they want to build. The HC should have the final word, in cooperation with the GM, as to which players are drafted, FAs signed, cut, etc. However, the GM should be able to decide what acceptable salary is with regard to FAs and while the HC may want a player, if the salary demand is outside of the acceptable limit, the GM should have final word.. The GM is not the coach and rarely has HC experience or even coordinator experience. The GM is the business guy. At no time should the GM be deciding who the HC wants on his field staff except as to background check and salary. If the GM is not a strong talent evaluator he should not be considered for the GM position.
IMHO, the onus of choosing personnel should mainly and ultimately be on the HC(except for excessive salary demands).
One, why is Caserio held in such high regard? Is it because he is next in line of NE management? There have been other management types to leave NE and have not done well. Also, how much do any of us know about these guys? Basically zero. So, I am not all gung who about Caserio.
Two, I doubt Rhule gets full control. That is crazy. However, as others have pointed out it makes sense that he wants to pick his staff like any normal coach would and probably wants to have say in the acquisition of players but not necessarily full control.
Finally, look at sports as a parallel example on the field. The allstar cast rarely wins. Same goes for management. What is more important than getting the best people at their positions is getting people that are on the same page and work in unison. This doesn't mean yes men. Far from it. It does mean that both share the same vision and work their way toward that goal with the same principles to achieve that goal.
If you're keeping score, here's what has changed since 2011:
- New coach (x2, TC-McAdoo, McAdoo->Shurmur)
- New GM (Reese->Gettleman)
- New Head of Scouting (Ross->Koncz)
- New QB
- Churned roster (mostly new players)
Remaining largely the same since 2011:
- Head of Player Personnel (Mara)
- Remainder of scouting department
The results through this period have been gradually declining, save for a 2016 year when the team went 11-5 (and blew it up after).
If they were to sunset Gettleman and transition to Abrams, it's likely those last two continue to remain unchanged.
If you're a coach with some demand behind him coming in - the first thing you're going to want to look at, if not control, is that part of the organization. If you don't trust those guys, then you're not going to get the players you need to win.
And if there's one thing that unit has proven here with the Giants, is that they're not to be trusted. And they seem to have been the only part not held accountable through this whole mess.
went outside their typical way of thinking and went all in on a guy like Rhule...both bw and Terps would find something to criticize.
They'll stop criticising when the Giants start winning again. But even if they don't stop, it won't matter...because the Giants will be winning again. And that the only thing that counts.
would be a good guy to take a shot on. He was/is very fond of TC and I am sure he implements some of his philosophies.
How do we know DG does not work closely with his coaches and supports their vision? I think Olgetree and all the Arizona guys were wanted by Betcher who was also the one high on Beal and had to have him.
The other thing I believe is that Mara said Eli is finishing his contract and told to build the best team short team with an eye to the future. Hence Solder and even Barkley.
would be a good guy to take a shot on. He was/is very fond of TC and I am sure he implements some of his philosophies.
How do we know DG does not work closely with his coaches and supports their vision? I think Olgetree and all the Arizona guys were wanted by Betcher who was also the one high on Beal and had to have him.
The other thing I believe is that Mara said Eli is finishing his contract and told to build the best team short team with an eye to the future. Hence Solder and even Barkley.
If these things are all true, then all the more reason to hand over total control to Rhule.
If Gettleman had his hands tied and was forced to retain Eli, sign Solder, draft Barkley - then he's really not running the operation anyway. Might as well give the whole dog and pony show to Rhule for 4 years and see what he can do with it.
Common sense tells me the Arizona guys was Betcher. During the draft it was reported that he also love Beal.
Concerning Eli it has never been proven. I just think after the first benching of Eli (McAdoo) and how Mara described the negative letters and media backlash there was no way he was not starting the next year and that he was going to honor his contract.
Common sense tells me the Arizona guys was Betcher. During the draft it was reported that he also love Beal.
Concerning Eli it has never been proven. I just think after the first benching of Eli (McAdoo) and how Mara described the negative letters and media backlash there was no way he was not starting the next year and that he was going to honor his contract.
I think people go to great lengths to try to defend some of Gettleman's performance, but don't realize that either way it's a major concern.
On the one hand - if some of these things were on him, like the assessment of the team in 2018 and the quick fixes to try to turn around the team before he ripped it apart, signing Beckham to trade him, or keeping Eli for his final season after having planned to draft a QB and move on anyway - these are errors that a competent GM should not be making.
On the other - if he was forced to take Shurmur, forced to keep Eli, forced to sign or move Beckham - then although it exonerates Gettleman, it still means the organization is dysfunctional and needs a major departure from their current structure.
I don't doubt the AZ guys were Bettcher - but when you need to extend beyond to guys like Beal and Ogletree, then it just makes it look like Gettleman isn't really doing much of anything.
Common sense tells me the Arizona guys was Betcher. During the draft it was reported that he also love Beal.
Concerning Eli it has never been proven. I just think after the first benching of Eli (McAdoo) and how Mara described the negative letters and media backlash there was no way he was not starting the next year and that he was going to honor his contract.
I think people go to great lengths to try to defend some of Gettleman's performance, but don't realize that either way it's a major concern.
On the one hand - if some of these things were on him, like the assessment of the team in 2018 and the quick fixes to try to turn around the team before he ripped it apart, signing Beckham to trade him, or keeping Eli for his final season after having planned to draft a QB and move on anyway - these are errors that a competent GM should not be making.
On the other - if he was forced to take Shurmur, forced to keep Eli, forced to sign or move Beckham - then although it exonerates Gettleman, it still means the organization is dysfunctional and needs a major departure from their current structure.
I don't doubt the AZ guys were Bettcher - but when you need to extend beyond to guys like Beal and Ogletree, then it just makes it look like Gettleman isn't really doing much of anything.
Agree and this is the great unknown. Beckham also seems to be a Mara/Tisch/Shurmur signing. Do you want a first year Head Coach starting out without his top offensive weapon? Then you have the Marketing and sales impact OBJ had on the bottom line to consider.
Then he popped off with his mouth to the media and also the rumor hear on BBi was he told PS to F off.
Regardless, it is difficult to know who is calling the shots.
That's a silly thing to say - considering Rhule's preference is the Giants but only if he has total control, and Barnwell's article pointed to that relationship as one of the major sticking points for a prospective coach.
To make this happen? Something tells me no. I hope I’m wrong.
You are assuming that this would be the right move and the only move.
Also, the implication is that Rhule won't be interested or in demand for other clubs. People are setting up the narrative that the Giants are failures if they don't get Rhule.
Down here in Jax, it is a forgone conclusion that Doug and his staff are gone. Dave Caldwell is also likely gone. Some want TC gone, but there is the idea that unless he retires, he will survive. When TC was brought on board, Khan snipped Caldwell's balls with his authority and final say. That all went to Coughlin. From the intro press conference where Caldwell was relegated to the end of the table, it gave the optics that Dave was close to out the door then. Rhule has been linked to Jax with the idea that TC would stay and absorb all of Dave's duties mentoring Rhule preparing him to take over full control in future years when TC does retire.
We just failed to find a HC twice. Both were trying to be the HC and OC by calling the plays themselves. Both had very little OC experience (OC) to begin with. Both failed miserably.
Now we want to hire someone who's never been a HC at the pro level. He's never been an OC or DC in the pros. The most he's been at the pro-level is the "assistant" OL coach. He didn't even head up a position group.
This is who many on here want to not only hire as the HC but also allow him the authority of the GM as well?
John Harbaugh had never been a head coach, or an offensive coordinator Â
or a defensive coordinator. His highest level attained at pro or college was special teams coordinator.
Sean McVay had never been a head coach at any level, and had a grand total of 2 years as a coordinator before getting the Rams job.
Bill Arnsparger was a decorated defensive genius under legendary NFL head coaches. Built and coached legendary, elite defenses. Hailed as a great hire for New York. 7-35 as head coach for the Giants.
Pat Shurmur has all the NFL resume you want. Has ears as a successful offensive coordinator under established, excellent head coaches. Coached almost every position group on offenses. Won an assistant coach of the year award. Had years of prior head coaching experience.
There is not one single path to being a successful head coach. Every time you try to predict it, someone else can point to a exception.
Bill Parcells was a head coach in college for one (1) season. He had been a defensive coordinator in the professional level for two (2) seasons. And one season at Army 12 years before that.
Great coaches don't always have these great resumes. And bad coaches sometimes have tons of lower-level experience.
RE: RE: Thought Barnwell said no one wanted to coach the Giants Â
That's a silly thing to say - considering Rhule's preference is the Giants but only if he has total control, and Barnwell's article pointed to that relationship as one of the major sticking points for a prospective coach.
That's a lot of assumptions about what's going on. You think Rhule is uninformed about the Giants FO and GM. He's one of the hottest college coaches out there and still is preferring the "undesirable" Giants (According To Barnwell). You sound like you want the Giants to be undesirable there jcn.
The demand for broad authority seems like a fit with Abrams. Â
Not advocating one way or the other. Just noting that Kevin Abrams doesn’t come from a talent-evaluation or coaching background. So he might be less likely to clash with a coach who wants to steer the grocery-shopping and assemble his own staff.
The main problem with Abrams, in my view, is that a lot of other dead wood is likely to stay if he does, including literal and figurative members of the Mara family.
Not advocating one way or the other. Just noting that Kevin Abrams doesn’t come from a talent-evaluation or coaching background. So he might be less likely to clash with a coach who wants to steer the grocery-shopping and assemble his own staff.
The main problem with Abrams, in my view, is that a lot of other dead wood is likely to stay if he does, including literal and figurative members of the Mara family.
I agree that Abrams would be a good fit as GM under a coach that once player authority.
I disagree that somehow Abrams is ahead of chris Mara in the org and would stay if he stays.
Bill Parcells was a head coach in college for one (1) season. He had been a defensive coordinator in the professional level for two (2) seasons. And one season at Army 12 years before that.
Great coaches don't always have these great resumes. And bad coaches sometimes have tons of lower-level experience.
It took a while for Parcells to become the coach we remember. His first year was a disaster, and there were plenty of bumps in the road after that. His only Giant team that really over-achieved was the last one. I was much more impressed by his work in New England, and with the Jets.
RE: RE: RE: Thought Barnwell said no one wanted to coach the Giants Â
That's a lot of assumptions about what's going on. You think Rhule is uninformed about the Giants FO and GM. He's one of the hottest college coaches out there and still is preferring the "undesirable" Giants (According To Barnwell). You sound like you want the Giants to be undesirable there jcn.
Wait - onto a thread with an article regarding Rhule, where he's rumored to *want* the Giants but expects near-total authority, you think *I'm* the one making assumptions about what he wants or doesn't want?
You made a silly post about how this article proves Barnwell wrong. It's exactly the opposite - the control that Rhule is rumored to want would counter what Barnwell said was undesirable about the Giants.
If you wanted to poke holes, you could say that these guys are wrong about what Rhule expects. But any logical or reasonable person sees that this article aligns perfectly with Barnwell's.
Are we talking about organizational structure, picking the GM, personnel decisions? Or just the ability to pick his own assistants which any head coach should be able to do?
As far as Rhule as a whole, you take a gamble on anyone you bring in. Remember Bill Belichik hadn't won a Super Bowl until he got to New England, Shawn Payton was fired by Jim Fassell for not being a good play caller (was really a scape goat) and Mike Tomlin was all but unheard of.
There is no guarantee any coach will work out, but in my mind the one thing that seems to translate is winning. Rhule has won wherever he went, even if the situations were bad. I've watched Baylor play a few times this year, his teams are tough and his players seem to play their butts off each week. Give me that for the Giant!
guy was born in NYC and grew up there, worked under Coughlin, is 44 years old and has an excellent track record as a program builder, leader, and play caller. Also seems to be universally well liked and respected by all. Not sure why we wouldn't hire this guy. It's almost perfect.
And I have no problem with Rhule hiring his staff including his own GM/personnel guy. Sometimes people act like this shit is more complicated than it is - it’s only football. He’s been a football coach his whole life. There’s nothing special about the NFL, major college football is every bit as competitive, strategic, etc.
This is a guy who has been head coach, running programs and all that entails. I think he’d be a great choice.
I am also almost certain it’ll be Dave Gettleman and his buddy Ron Rivera doing Grownups 2 instead of the crazy idea of hiring a young guy with a good resume and letting him build.
To make this happen? Something tells me no. I hope I’m wrong.
You are assuming that this would be the right move and the only move.
Also, the implication is that Rhule won't be interested or in demand for other clubs. People are setting up the narrative that the Giants are failures if they don't get Rhule.
Down here in Jax, it is a forgone conclusion that Doug and his staff are gone. Dave Caldwell is also likely gone. Some want TC gone, but there is the idea that unless he retires, he will survive. When TC was brought on board, Khan snipped Caldwell's balls with his authority and final say. That all went to Coughlin. From the intro press conference where Caldwell was relegated to the end of the table, it gave the optics that Dave was close to out the door then. Rhule has been linked to Jax with the idea that TC would stay and absorb all of Dave's duties mentoring Rhule preparing him to take over full control in future years when TC does retire.
Definitely could see him in Jax. I thought TC would be asked to retire but I guess we'll see.
Mainly because there isn't a whole lot of precedent for a college coach with virtually no NFL experience (Rhule didn't play in the league and spent all of one season as the Giants assistant OL coach) succeeding big in the NFL. Jimmy Johnson is the only one I can think of, and his college career dwarfs Rhule's.
However, the prospect of him having near total control is a damned sight more palatable than Mr. Magoo and Ron Rivera.
speculating based on what happened between Rhule and the Jets but wanting to pick your own coaching staff and "total control" are pretty different. I assume the only HC in the NFL with complete and total control is Little Bill.
RE: RE: RE: RE: Thought Barnwell said no one wanted to coach the Giants Â
That's a lot of assumptions about what's going on. You think Rhule is uninformed about the Giants FO and GM. He's one of the hottest college coaches out there and still is preferring the "undesirable" Giants (According To Barnwell). You sound like you want the Giants to be undesirable there jcn.
Wait - onto a thread with an article regarding Rhule, where he's rumored to *want* the Giants but expects near-total authority, you think *I'm* the one making assumptions about what he wants or doesn't want?
You made a silly post about how this article proves Barnwell wrong. It's exactly the opposite - the control that Rhule is rumored to want would counter what Barnwell said was undesirable about the Giants.
If you wanted to poke holes, you could say that these guys are wrong about what Rhule expects. But any logical or reasonable person sees that this article aligns perfectly with Barnwell's.
So, a logical person would see that maybe the hottest college coach out there, with you would think multiple choices, would want the "least desirable" NFL franchise. You must have a different definition of logical than most.
RE: RE: The demand for broad authority seems like a fit with Abrams. Â
Not advocating one way or the other. Just noting that Kevin Abrams doesn’t come from a talent-evaluation or coaching background. So he might be less likely to clash with a coach who wants to steer the grocery-shopping and assemble his own staff.
The main problem with Abrams, in my view, is that a lot of other dead wood is likely to stay if he does, including literal and figurative members of the Mara family.
I agree that Abrams would be a good fit as GM under a coach that once player authority.
I disagree that somehow Abrams is ahead of chris Mara in the org and would stay if he stays.
So you wouldn’t mind a guy who has been inside this organization for twenty years being exposed to this endless nonsense?
Abrams is the absolute LAST person anyone should want. With him you have to assume it’s going to be more of the same...
speculating based on what happened between Rhule and the Jets but wanting to pick your own coaching staff and "total control" are pretty different. I assume the only HC in the NFL with complete and total control is Little Bill.
Andy Reid is another. Brett Veach holds the GM title, but he was a former Reid coaching intern and Eagles scout who followed Reid to KC, so you don't have to read between the lines too closely to see who has the power there.
Supposedly Kyle Shanahan is the one who selected John Lynch, not vice-versa, and I've heard people say Pete Carroll has the ultimate authority in Seattle. Don't know how true it is in either case.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Thought Barnwell said no one wanted to coach the Giants Â
So, a logical person would see that maybe the hottest college coach out there, with you would think multiple choices, would want the "least desirable" NFL franchise. You must have a different definition of logical than most.
No, because the article says he'd want them IF he has (quoting directly) -> "near-total authority".
Barnwell identified them as less desirable because the incoming coach would have LESS AUTHORITY.
So with that constraint removed, they're no longer less desirable.
I'm not really sure how that's unreasonable or hard to understand in any way. It's the same as if the Cowboys, who you claimed were less desirable because of Jerry Jones, were to suddenly be sold and Jones was no longer involved in operations. Wouldn't that make a pretty big difference in how someone views that spot?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Thought Barnwell said no one wanted to coach the Giants Â
So, a logical person would see that maybe the hottest college coach out there, with you would think multiple choices, would want the "least desirable" NFL franchise. You must have a different definition of logical than most.
No, because the article says he'd want them IF he has (quoting directly) -> "near-total authority".
Barnwell identified them as less desirable because the incoming coach would have LESS AUTHORITY.
So with that constraint removed, they're no longer less desirable.
I'm not really sure how that's unreasonable or hard to understand in any way. It's the same as if the Cowboys, who you claimed were less desirable because of Jerry Jones, were to suddenly be sold and Jones was no longer involved in operations. Wouldn't that make a pretty big difference in how someone views that spot?
The bottom line here is Rhule's preference for the Giants blows up both Barnwell's article and your position about the Giants desirability along with it. Thus, you have to find some way to explain away the obvious contradiction.
absolutely be in lockstep as to the type of team that they want to build. The HC should have the final word, in cooperation with the GM, as to which players are drafted, FAs signed, cut, etc. However, the GM should be able to decide what acceptable salary is with regard to FAs and while the HC may want a player, if the salary demand is outside of the acceptable limit, the GM should have final word.. The GM is not the coach and rarely has HC experience or even coordinator experience. The GM is the business guy. At no time should the GM be deciding who the HC wants on his field staff except as to background check and salary. If the GM is not a strong talent evaluator he should not be considered for the GM position.
IMHO, the onus of choosing personnel should mainly and ultimately be on the HC(except for excessive salary demands).
As opposed to YOU, who's been railing against the current HC/GM since day 1, and is unashamed to beat that drum on every possible thread, day after day, month after month? If you don't think your harangues don't get old, I have news for you..........they're tiresome.
Some want TC gone, but there is the idea that unless he retires, he will survive.
Why on earth would he survive? Jacksonville's gotten worse the longer he's been there.
He certainly deserves to be asked to "retire". But he has a built in fall guy in Caldwell. I was surprised then when TC was named VP of Football Operation that Caldwell was retained. Caldwell should have been fired then. As far as the performance on the field, they have been the most undisciplined team that I have seen. From fighting, player ejections, mindless penalties such as offsides/false starts, to the Ramsay incidents over the years culminating with him going after the coaching staff on the sidelines. That falls on the coaching staff and really is a surprise as Doug Marrone was brought in to restore discipline as Gus Bradley before was deemed to friendly with the players. Ultimately, the buck stops with TC so he shouldn't stay. But the speculation on the local news is that if he doesn't retire, then he'll get another bite of the apple. The Rhule speculation is just the 2+2 logic.
My point is that even though the OP's article says Rhule's preference is NYG, he will have plenty of options. We like to hold the Giants franchise as some model of excellence, but the reality is that there are more attractive options available.
We just failed to find a HC twice. Both were trying to be the HC and OC by calling the plays themselves. Both had very little OC experience (OC) to begin with. Both failed miserably.
Now we want to hire someone who's never been a HC at the pro level. He's never been an OC or DC in the pros. The most he's been at the pro-level is the "assistant" OL coach. He didn't even head up a position group.
This is who many on here want to not only hire as the HC but also allow him the authority of the GM as well?
A head coach, more than anything else, needs to be a leader of men and to be able to set a tone and expectations for everyone else on the staff and the roster. He also needs to be able to delegate to quality assistants with whom he's comfortable and who align with his coaching philosophies.
My point is that even though the OP's article says Rhule's preference is NYG, he will have plenty of options. We like to hold the Giants franchise as some model of excellence, but the reality is that there are more attractive options available.
And the recurring theme to keep in mind - it says it's his preference provided he has 'near-total authority' on personnel. Are the Giants likely to give him that?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Are the Giants smart enough Â
My point is that even though the OP's article says Rhule's preference is NYG, he will have plenty of options. We like to hold the Giants franchise as some model of excellence, but the reality is that there are more attractive options available.
And the recurring theme to keep in mind - it says it's his preference provided he has 'near-total authority' on personnel. Are the Giants likely to give him that?
I wouldn't think so nor do I think any team will give him near-total authority. Everyone agrees that a HC has every right to choose his staff. The question is whether a college HC deserves to captain the entire ship. If Saban comes through the door, well fine. If Lil Bill comes through the door, of course. Despite his success with Temple/Baylor, I don't see any team giving full autonomy to a Rhule.
RE: RE: Something tells me that even if the Giants Â
As opposed to YOU, who's been railing against the current HC/GM since day 1, and is unashamed to beat that drum on every possible thread, day after day, month after month? If you don't think your harangues don't get old, I have news for you..........they're tiresome.
Gettleman and Shurmur being bad at their jobs isn't a spun narrative. It's just the truth, like saying the sky is blue.
Incredibly there are still a lot of posters telling us Gettleman is doing a good job. They think the sky is green.
I have no idea how people continue to defend Shurmur and Â
Rhule is my first choice. Giants better be really fucking smart here. If they love this guy, and he checks A LOT of boxes, don’t get too cute. Let rhule hire his own staff. Give the guy what he wants and be done with it.
Agreed
RE: RE: RE: Where's FatMan to tell us it's a narrative Â
As opposed to YOU, who's been railing against the current HC/GM since day 1, and is unashamed to beat that drum on every possible thread, day after day, month after month? If you don't think your harangues don't get old, I have news for you..........they're tiresome.
Gettleman and Shurmur being bad at their jobs isn't a spun narrative. It's just the truth, like saying the sky is blue.
Incredibly there are still a lot of posters telling us Gettleman is doing a good job. They think the sky is green.
Well, to be fair, before a really bad storm where all hell is breaks loose, the sky often turns green.
But then again, that is an apt description of where this team is!
Quote:
As noted earlier, Pauline’s sources have told him that if the Giants head coaching job opens up, he’s interested in the position. However, Allbright reports that Rhule would want near-total authority. Would Giants general manager Dave Gettleman be willing to concede power to Rhule?
I think this is exactly why you're hearing reports the DG is in trouble. because they'd do it for Rhule
Quote:
is going to be a non-starter based on this:
Quote:
As noted earlier, Pauline’s sources have told him that if the Giants head coaching job opens up, he’s interested in the position. However, Allbright reports that Rhule would want near-total authority. Would Giants general manager Dave Gettleman be willing to concede power to Rhule?
I think this is exactly why you're hearing reports the DG is in trouble. because they'd do it for Rhule
Agreed, I think they know that some of the candidates they like to replace Shurmur will want final say over the roster which is something that Gettleman will not be willing to do.
I think this is exactly why you're hearing reports the DG is in trouble. because they'd do it for Rhule
I'm not a Rhule guy, but I'd be all for a person wearing both hats - HC and GM.
Something like this would require a major overhaul in football operations at Jints Central. But I think they are too stuck in the their box to take this chance...
Quote:
is going to be a non-starter based on this:
Quote:
As noted earlier, Pauline’s sources have told him that if the Giants head coaching job opens up, he’s interested in the position. However, Allbright reports that Rhule would want near-total authority. Would Giants general manager Dave Gettleman be willing to concede power to Rhule?
I think this is exactly why you're hearing reports the DG is in trouble. because they'd do it for Rhule
I like DG, but would absolutely consider telling DG to cede some control with an eye to all of it transitioning to Rhule after DG retires. If he said no, then I’d thank him for his time.
He coached at Temple and is currently the HC at Baylor where he resurrected the program.
Let’s start with giving him an interview first before we give him “whatever he wants”.
This guy would have to do a big job here to match the hype he gets.
I like DG, but would absolutely consider telling DG to cede some control with an eye to all of it transitioning to Rhule after DG retires. If he said no, then I’d thank him for his time.
Ideal offseason, Nick Caserio as GM with Rhule as HC.
2 - Prior head coaching experience. He's not a coordinator who's being promoted. He has head coaching experience at 2 different schools and turned around both programs
3 - Local guy with roots to NYC
This may now be a change the franchise would consider. Mara/Tisch may be able to convince DG to take on a lower profile roll with personnel in order to bring in an elite coaching candidate.
Quote:
As noted earlier, Pauline’s sources have told him that if the Giants head coaching job opens up, he’s interested in the position. However, Allbright reports that Rhule would want near-total authority. Would Giants general manager Dave Gettleman be willing to concede power to Rhule?
Well see. Giants hired a big fine HC before in coughlin and even Reeves. Stranger things have happened.
Correct. Very similar to how Seattle hired Pete Carroll.
Carroll picked the GM John Schneider, who has been with him since Day 1. Schneider does all the GM stuff and then runs it by Carroll. They then come to a consensus.
As it appears, the Giants have Gettleman, who picks the players while Shurmur sits in the corner. Of course, this can become an issue when you are talking about "hog mollies" and toughness and you have a coach who loves to put the ball up in the air more than run it. This can lead to players on your roster that are mismatched based on the philosophies of the GM and the HC.
2 - Prior head coaching experience. He's not a coordinator who's being promoted. He has head coaching experience at 2 different schools and turned around both programs
3 - Local guy with roots to NYC
Because of #1, I want to disqualify Rhule. I'm so tired of these prerequisites that someone has to have worked for the Giants, grew up in the northeast, coached at a college in the northeast, was a Giant fan, etc.
Why are any of those advantages?
Rhule has so many more legit pelts than both shurm and mcadoo combined. He’s a leader. He’s done nothing but resurrect teams in his own image. Shurm and Big Ben never came close to that. Yea he’s a risk in the college HC sense but every candidate comes with risk or warts.
Quote:
He will have a say in who the ultimate GM is and they will work together based on shared philosophy. The GM can be hired AFTER the coach.
Correct. Very similar to how Seattle hired Pete Carroll.
Carroll picked the GM John Schneider, who has been with him since Day 1. Schneider does all the GM stuff and then runs it by Carroll. They then come to a consensus.
As it appears, the Giants have Gettleman, who picks the players while Shurmur sits in the corner. Of course, this can become an issue when you are talking about "hog mollies" and toughness and you have a coach who loves to put the ball up in the air more than run it. This can lead to players on your roster that are mismatched based on the philosophies of the GM and the HC.
Very good point. Buffalo followed a similar model. The GM and coach are nearly indistinguishable in philosophy.
Quote:
1 - Previous ties to the organization while at the same time would represent significant change from the current team. This should satisfy Mara and Tisch
2 - Prior head coaching experience. He's not a coordinator who's being promoted. He has head coaching experience at 2 different schools and turned around both programs
3 - Local guy with roots to NYC
Because of #1, I want to disqualify Rhule. I'm so tired of these prerequisites that someone has to have worked for the Giants, grew up in the northeast, coached at a college in the northeast, was a Giant fan, etc.
Why are any of those advantages?
Re #1 - he was the assistant offensive line coach. i wouldn't hold that against him lol. but when you look at the current ownership, you have 1 owner who likes familiarity and another who wants change. they def need change. i think this might be enough to placate mara and do what needs to be done
Quote:
1 - Previous ties to the organization while at the same time would represent significant change from the current team. This should satisfy Mara and Tisch
2 - Prior head coaching experience. He's not a coordinator who's being promoted. He has head coaching experience at 2 different schools and turned around both programs
3 - Local guy with roots to NYC
Because of #1, I want to disqualify Rhule. I'm so tired of these prerequisites that someone has to have worked for the Giants, grew up in the northeast, coached at a college in the northeast, was a Giant fan, etc.
Why are any of those advantages?
Dude just fucking stop already. Belichick has ties too you gonna fucking disqualify him too???
This shitty wreck of a franchise has more championships than MOST. Yes they suck and have for years now but just stop with this stupid act.
Correct. Very similar to how Seattle hired Pete Carroll.
Carroll picked the GM John Schneider, who has been with him since Day 1. Schneider does all the GM stuff and then runs it by Carroll. They then come to a consensus.
Just to be clear, Carroll didn't pick his own GM. Leiweke gave him a list of four candidates and Carroll had to pick the one he wanted. Which was Scheider.
I do worry that Mara will go for the proven McCarthy/Rivera/Garrett route. Rhule is worth the risk imo.
Dude just fucking stop already. Belichick has ties too you gonna fucking disqualify him too???
This shitty wreck of a franchise has more championships than MOST. Yes they suck and have for years now but just stop with this stupid act.
BB is obviously the exception to that rule.
I feel like outside of BB, not a lot of guys who demand full control are very successful.
One of the strengths appears to be his success with reclamation projects - like Baylor and Temple.
But Al Golden built Temple first. It slipped after he left, and Rhule got it back on track, but Golden built the house and foundation...
Baylor? Briles, before he got caught up in the assault scandal, built them into a powerhouse. He built a great recruiting pipeline. The scandal set the university back but top players still wanted to attend. So Rhule essentially restored their credit and got the lights back on...but he didn't built them. Briles did.
I feel like outside of BB, not a lot of guys who demand full control are very successful.
Mike Shanahan had it at Denver. Paul Holmgren had it at Seattle. Both got to Super Bowls. Gruden has it now in Oakland.
When you read the article it sounds more like a reference to his sticking point when interviewing with the Jets, after the Jets told him that he would not be the final say on who his assistant coaches would be. I would imagine this was about Gregg Williams as DC. The Jets finalized the hiring of Gase and Williams on the same day last January.
Everything I’ve read about Rhule says he is a big team culture and character guy, part of the reason he took on the Baylor challenge. No way Williams and Rhule could have existed in the same space. Williams would have been undoing everything Rhule was trying to create. Notice the comment about not willing to be in an “arranged marriage”. Assuming marriage means two people here, it again sounds like he may have been opposed to having Williams as DC.
This may not have to do with player personnel decisions
Don’t know if Rhule is the guy but I’d love to see them give him a shot. You need a “culture creator” you need a guy to create and identity. Giants are bad enough and young enough where a college approach might work out. And he’s a pro guy anyway.
When you read the article it sounds more like a reference to his sticking point when interviewing with the Jets, after the Jets told him that he would not be the final say on who his assistant coaches would be. I would imagine this was about Gregg Williams as DC. The Jets finalized the hiring of Gase and Williams on the same day last January.
The article does mention near total control when discussing the unlikelihood of Rhule working with Gettleman. We all know Gettleman isn't going to relinquish power over to a young coach with no NFL head coaching experience.
Quote:
We don’t know what “near total control” means.
When you read the article it sounds more like a reference to his sticking point when interviewing with the Jets, after the Jets told him that he would not be the final say on who his assistant coaches would be. I would imagine this was about Gregg Williams as DC. The Jets finalized the hiring of Gase and Williams on the same day last January.
The article does mention near total control when discussing the unlikelihood of Rhule working with Gettleman. We all know Gettleman isn't going to relinquish power over to a young coach with no NFL head coaching experience.
I believe that reference is inserted by the writer and is not a direct quote or citation from the source.
You certainly could be right. Rhule may want some personnel control and Gettleman may not want that. But it’s not really Gettleman’s call.
I believe that reference is inserted by the writer and is not a direct quote or citation from the source.
You certainly could be right. Rhule may want some personnel control and Gettleman may not want that. But it’s not really Gettleman’s call.
Yeah I just saw that, I'm hoping that he is willing to settle for just having full autonomy when it comes to his staff especially if the Giants replace Gettleman and have a shot at Nick Caserio. Obviously the new GM will listen to Rhule on the type of players he wants for his scheme but I would prefer the GM to have final say to take pressure off of the HC.
Buyout for a college team is 30 million. It’s been reported that a NFL Buyout is extremely low and won’t be an issue.
Baylor had been a tire fire of NCAA sanctions in the wake of Art Briles before he took over. He's rebuilt programs at Temple and Baylor.
If you are looking for me to tell you a narrative, that should give you the answer right there.
The Giants Way!! Let's mock it everyone.
This was huge for JJ in Dallas. I saw him talk about it in an interview once. He knew Aikman, Smith, etc. from their high school and college days. This would be a reason to give Rhule total control if he comes here.
From what I understand, the enormous buyout number is for other college jobs. The number for an NFL job is supposedly dramatically less. But I don't have a source to cite, unfortunately.
Yeah I'll pass, the NFL is entirely different game for each of those positions. I prefer a head coach with (successful) NFL experience anyway. Rivera is the guy, he's proven to be a good head coach at this level. We cant afford any more experimentation.
Scoffing at the idea of college guys doesn't seem productive when there really isn't much of an indicator of who's going to be a success at coaching at this level. Guys have come from college and had success. Lifelong, high level NFL coordinators have been flaming disasters.
This was huge for JJ in Dallas. I saw him talk about it in an interview once. He knew Aikman, Smith, etc. from their high school and college days. This would be a reason to give Rhule total control if he comes here.
Works for me. Can'tbe any worse than what we've got now. Give Rhule a candidate that will work in lock step with him a la Pete Carrol and Schneider in Seattle.
I could see a scenario where they bring him in and DG retires in 2 years and turn it over to him. keep in mind Rhule has never had total control at any of his College jobs. A big risk to allow it at the Pro level
I could see a scenario where they bring him in and DG retires in 2 years and turn it over to him. keep in mind Rhule has never had total control at any of his College jobs. A big risk to allow it at the Pro level
What would we be risking? The Giants are basically an expansion operation, bereft of talent, coaching, and leadership.
What's Rhule going to do, make the Giants the 33rd best team in the NFL over the last four years?
In my mind, this makes the hiring and firing process easier. If the HC fails, there aren't any excuses.
He failed because he sucked.
He failed because the guy he asked you to hire sucked.
or he failed because his coaching sucks.
What's the big deal about making sure that these guys are tied together in the future? Maybe the GM is an excellent drafter but the team underperforms. Do you think for one second this GM would say
"well mr owner, I've held up my end of the bargain but the coach is sub par. But we got hired together-- you should fire both of us"
or
if the coach has over performed with complete busts as first round draft picks?
"well mr owner. we've over achieved. Ive got 1 title and an 8-8 season. But our drafting is complete trash, fire both of us"
Hire a guy and let him pick a GM he's comfortable working with. It's not a big deal unless you are a Gettleshitter apologist.
I could see a scenario where they bring him in and DG retires in 2 years and turn it over to him. keep in mind Rhule has never had total control at any of his College jobs. A big risk to allow it at the Pro level
Why are you discussing his request in extremes?
No one should be given total control. But its clear that if the condition of hiring him is him having someone as GM that he would LIKE to work with, how is that a deal breaker?
Unless you lick Gettleshit I guess.
Don’t know if Rhule is the guy but I’d love to see them give him a shot. You need a “culture creator” you need a guy to create and identity. Giants are bad enough and young enough where a college approach might work out. And he’s a pro guy anyway.
Only a moronic organization would ask to hire a guy
but knee cap him by saying
"well you get no say in roster
andor
you get no say in assistants
andor
you get no say in coordinators"
use your fucking brain people. to request that he has a GM he sees as his ally is not a bad thing.
again, please do not discuss his request in extremes.
The report was that he wasn't allowed to pick his coaching staff.
He is not asking to be GM.
how many 3-13 seasons do you need to go through to realize that a retread of a retread probably isn't the answer to building a sustainably winning team?
Don’t know if Rhule is the guy but I’d love to see them give him a shot. You need a “culture creator” you need a guy to create and identity. Giants are bad enough and young enough where a college approach might work out. And he’s a pro guy anyway.
The truth is we need to get rid of napping boomers that do stupid shit like
trading for a mLB that is paid a ton of $ but isn't even an avg player for his position
trading for a free agent and giving up a #63 pick when your record is 2-7
signing Jonathan Steward and then drafting Barkley-- having the highest allocation to RB in the league
hanging Nate Solder over the neck of Eli and Mara
Drafting BJ Hill and Dalvin Tomlinson and sidelining them after 1 year to trade for a FA
drafting a man coverage CB when your coordinator will ask him to play zone
It's not about "we need a college guy" or "system guy" or "managing guy"
we need someone whose not going to let John Mara get robbed by the Jets & manage the team like its 2020 and not 1995.
Let’s start with giving him an interview first before we give him “whatever he wants”.
This guy would have to do a big job here to match the hype he gets.
because there is 0, zero, none
chance whatsoever that he can do more damage to the team than Gettleshit.
We know what Gettletrash brings to the table. 3-13 misery and a mockery of Giants glory as a franchise with historically iconic defensive play.
Rhule would probably take the job under the current structure, but I'd be fine with letting him either pick his own GM or giving him veto power over any of Mara's GM recommendations.
Two, I doubt Rhule gets full control. That is crazy. However, as others have pointed out it makes sense that he wants to pick his staff like any normal coach would and probably wants to have say in the acquisition of players but not necessarily full control.
Finally, look at sports as a parallel example on the field. The allstar cast rarely wins. Same goes for management. What is more important than getting the best people at their positions is getting people that are on the same page and work in unison. This doesn't mean yes men. Far from it. It does mean that both share the same vision and work their way toward that goal with the same principles to achieve that goal.
I don't think the Mara's will cede total control on player acquisition. Thinking they want a check and balance there and a decision by consensus. Which is reasonable.
Not sure it was “control” exactly. The Jets were not going to allow him full control over his coaching staff. So he declined their offer.
IMHO, the onus of choosing personnel should mainly and ultimately be on the HC(except for excessive salary demands).
Yeah, because those guys have been unfairly criticizing the Giants, everything the team has been doing the past few years just makes total sense.
I wonder if Matt Rhule sat and listened when Accorsi told those Bert Jones stories, because that's probably on their checklist.
Two, I doubt Rhule gets full control. That is crazy. However, as others have pointed out it makes sense that he wants to pick his staff like any normal coach would and probably wants to have say in the acquisition of players but not necessarily full control.
Finally, look at sports as a parallel example on the field. The allstar cast rarely wins. Same goes for management. What is more important than getting the best people at their positions is getting people that are on the same page and work in unison. This doesn't mean yes men. Far from it. It does mean that both share the same vision and work their way toward that goal with the same principles to achieve that goal.
If you're keeping score, here's what has changed since 2011:
- New coach (x2, TC-McAdoo, McAdoo->Shurmur)
- New GM (Reese->Gettleman)
- New Head of Scouting (Ross->Koncz)
- New QB
- Churned roster (mostly new players)
Remaining largely the same since 2011:
- Head of Player Personnel (Mara)
- Remainder of scouting department
The results through this period have been gradually declining, save for a 2016 year when the team went 11-5 (and blew it up after).
If they were to sunset Gettleman and transition to Abrams, it's likely those last two continue to remain unchanged.
If you're a coach with some demand behind him coming in - the first thing you're going to want to look at, if not control, is that part of the organization. If you don't trust those guys, then you're not going to get the players you need to win.
And if there's one thing that unit has proven here with the Giants, is that they're not to be trusted. And they seem to have been the only part not held accountable through this whole mess.
They'll stop criticising when the Giants start winning again. But even if they don't stop, it won't matter...because the Giants will be winning again. And that the only thing that counts.
How do we know DG does not work closely with his coaches and supports their vision? I think Olgetree and all the Arizona guys were wanted by Betcher who was also the one high on Beal and had to have him.
The other thing I believe is that Mara said Eli is finishing his contract and told to build the best team short team with an eye to the future. Hence Solder and even Barkley.
How do we know DG does not work closely with his coaches and supports their vision? I think Olgetree and all the Arizona guys were wanted by Betcher who was also the one high on Beal and had to have him.
The other thing I believe is that Mara said Eli is finishing his contract and told to build the best team short team with an eye to the future. Hence Solder and even Barkley.
If these things are all true, then all the more reason to hand over total control to Rhule.
If Gettleman had his hands tied and was forced to retain Eli, sign Solder, draft Barkley - then he's really not running the operation anyway. Might as well give the whole dog and pony show to Rhule for 4 years and see what he can do with it.
If he didn't rebuild it, he certainly elevated it with his ability. There aren't many coaches who can claim to have that kind of success there.
Concerning Eli it has never been proven. I just think after the first benching of Eli (McAdoo) and how Mara described the negative letters and media backlash there was no way he was not starting the next year and that he was going to honor his contract.
Al Golden was a competent recruiter, that's it.
Concerning Eli it has never been proven. I just think after the first benching of Eli (McAdoo) and how Mara described the negative letters and media backlash there was no way he was not starting the next year and that he was going to honor his contract.
I think people go to great lengths to try to defend some of Gettleman's performance, but don't realize that either way it's a major concern.
On the one hand - if some of these things were on him, like the assessment of the team in 2018 and the quick fixes to try to turn around the team before he ripped it apart, signing Beckham to trade him, or keeping Eli for his final season after having planned to draft a QB and move on anyway - these are errors that a competent GM should not be making.
On the other - if he was forced to take Shurmur, forced to keep Eli, forced to sign or move Beckham - then although it exonerates Gettleman, it still means the organization is dysfunctional and needs a major departure from their current structure.
I don't doubt the AZ guys were Bettcher - but when you need to extend beyond to guys like Beal and Ogletree, then it just makes it look like Gettleman isn't really doing much of anything.
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Common sense tells me the Arizona guys was Betcher. During the draft it was reported that he also love Beal.
Concerning Eli it has never been proven. I just think after the first benching of Eli (McAdoo) and how Mara described the negative letters and media backlash there was no way he was not starting the next year and that he was going to honor his contract.
I think people go to great lengths to try to defend some of Gettleman's performance, but don't realize that either way it's a major concern.
On the one hand - if some of these things were on him, like the assessment of the team in 2018 and the quick fixes to try to turn around the team before he ripped it apart, signing Beckham to trade him, or keeping Eli for his final season after having planned to draft a QB and move on anyway - these are errors that a competent GM should not be making.
On the other - if he was forced to take Shurmur, forced to keep Eli, forced to sign or move Beckham - then although it exonerates Gettleman, it still means the organization is dysfunctional and needs a major departure from their current structure.
I don't doubt the AZ guys were Bettcher - but when you need to extend beyond to guys like Beal and Ogletree, then it just makes it look like Gettleman isn't really doing much of anything.
Agree and this is the great unknown. Beckham also seems to be a Mara/Tisch/Shurmur signing. Do you want a first year Head Coach starting out without his top offensive weapon? Then you have the Marketing and sales impact OBJ had on the bottom line to consider.
Then he popped off with his mouth to the media and also the rumor hear on BBi was he told PS to F off.
Regardless, it is difficult to know who is calling the shots.
You are assuming that this would be the right move and the only move.
Also, what were Shurmurs ties to the Giants? He didn’t have any. That’s worked out well...
That's a silly thing to say - considering Rhule's preference is the Giants but only if he has total control, and Barnwell's article pointed to that relationship as one of the major sticking points for a prospective coach.
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To make this happen? Something tells me no. I hope I’m wrong.
You are assuming that this would be the right move and the only move.
Also, the implication is that Rhule won't be interested or in demand for other clubs. People are setting up the narrative that the Giants are failures if they don't get Rhule.
Down here in Jax, it is a forgone conclusion that Doug and his staff are gone. Dave Caldwell is also likely gone. Some want TC gone, but there is the idea that unless he retires, he will survive. When TC was brought on board, Khan snipped Caldwell's balls with his authority and final say. That all went to Coughlin. From the intro press conference where Caldwell was relegated to the end of the table, it gave the optics that Dave was close to out the door then. Rhule has been linked to Jax with the idea that TC would stay and absorb all of Dave's duties mentoring Rhule preparing him to take over full control in future years when TC does retire.
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don't see the Giants hiring Rhule. His buyout from Baylor is enormous IIRC.
Buyout for a college team is 30 million. It’s been reported that a NFL Buyout is extremely low and won’t be an issue.
OK. But it still seems like the kind of bold move that a traditionally stodgy organization like the Giants would avoid.
Now we want to hire someone who's never been a HC at the pro level. He's never been an OC or DC in the pros. The most he's been at the pro-level is the "assistant" OL coach. He didn't even head up a position group.
This is who many on here want to not only hire as the HC but also allow him the authority of the GM as well?
Sean McVay had never been a head coach at any level, and had a grand total of 2 years as a coordinator before getting the Rams job.
Bill Arnsparger was a decorated defensive genius under legendary NFL head coaches. Built and coached legendary, elite defenses. Hailed as a great hire for New York. 7-35 as head coach for the Giants.
Pat Shurmur has all the NFL resume you want. Has ears as a successful offensive coordinator under established, excellent head coaches. Coached almost every position group on offenses. Won an assistant coach of the year award. Had years of prior head coaching experience.
There is not one single path to being a successful head coach. Every time you try to predict it, someone else can point to a exception.
Great coaches don't always have these great resumes. And bad coaches sometimes have tons of lower-level experience.
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Gee. That didn’t last long.
That's a silly thing to say - considering Rhule's preference is the Giants but only if he has total control, and Barnwell's article pointed to that relationship as one of the major sticking points for a prospective coach.
That's a lot of assumptions about what's going on. You think Rhule is uninformed about the Giants FO and GM. He's one of the hottest college coaches out there and still is preferring the "undesirable" Giants (According To Barnwell). You sound like you want the Giants to be undesirable there jcn.
The main problem with Abrams, in my view, is that a lot of other dead wood is likely to stay if he does, including literal and figurative members of the Mara family.
The main problem with Abrams, in my view, is that a lot of other dead wood is likely to stay if he does, including literal and figurative members of the Mara family.
I agree that Abrams would be a good fit as GM under a coach that once player authority.
I disagree that somehow Abrams is ahead of chris Mara in the org and would stay if he stays.
Great coaches don't always have these great resumes. And bad coaches sometimes have tons of lower-level experience.
That's a lot of assumptions about what's going on. You think Rhule is uninformed about the Giants FO and GM. He's one of the hottest college coaches out there and still is preferring the "undesirable" Giants (According To Barnwell). You sound like you want the Giants to be undesirable there jcn.
Wait - onto a thread with an article regarding Rhule, where he's rumored to *want* the Giants but expects near-total authority, you think *I'm* the one making assumptions about what he wants or doesn't want?
You made a silly post about how this article proves Barnwell wrong. It's exactly the opposite - the control that Rhule is rumored to want would counter what Barnwell said was undesirable about the Giants.
If you wanted to poke holes, you could say that these guys are wrong about what Rhule expects. But any logical or reasonable person sees that this article aligns perfectly with Barnwell's.
As far as Rhule as a whole, you take a gamble on anyone you bring in. Remember Bill Belichik hadn't won a Super Bowl until he got to New England, Shawn Payton was fired by Jim Fassell for not being a good play caller (was really a scape goat) and Mike Tomlin was all but unheard of.
There is no guarantee any coach will work out, but in my mind the one thing that seems to translate is winning. Rhule has won wherever he went, even if the situations were bad. I've watched Baylor play a few times this year, his teams are tough and his players seem to play their butts off each week. Give me that for the Giant!
Why on earth would he survive? Jacksonville's gotten worse the longer he's been there.
This is a guy who has been head coach, running programs and all that entails. I think he’d be a great choice.
I am also almost certain it’ll be Dave Gettleman and his buddy Ron Rivera doing Grownups 2 instead of the crazy idea of hiring a young guy with a good resume and letting him build.
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In comment 14716995 5BowlsSoon said:
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To make this happen? Something tells me no. I hope I’m wrong.
You are assuming that this would be the right move and the only move.
Also, the implication is that Rhule won't be interested or in demand for other clubs. People are setting up the narrative that the Giants are failures if they don't get Rhule.
Down here in Jax, it is a forgone conclusion that Doug and his staff are gone. Dave Caldwell is also likely gone. Some want TC gone, but there is the idea that unless he retires, he will survive. When TC was brought on board, Khan snipped Caldwell's balls with his authority and final say. That all went to Coughlin. From the intro press conference where Caldwell was relegated to the end of the table, it gave the optics that Dave was close to out the door then. Rhule has been linked to Jax with the idea that TC would stay and absorb all of Dave's duties mentoring Rhule preparing him to take over full control in future years when TC does retire.
Definitely could see him in Jax. I thought TC would be asked to retire but I guess we'll see.
However, the prospect of him having near total control is a damned sight more palatable than Mr. Magoo and Ron Rivera.
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That's a lot of assumptions about what's going on. You think Rhule is uninformed about the Giants FO and GM. He's one of the hottest college coaches out there and still is preferring the "undesirable" Giants (According To Barnwell). You sound like you want the Giants to be undesirable there jcn.
Wait - onto a thread with an article regarding Rhule, where he's rumored to *want* the Giants but expects near-total authority, you think *I'm* the one making assumptions about what he wants or doesn't want?
You made a silly post about how this article proves Barnwell wrong. It's exactly the opposite - the control that Rhule is rumored to want would counter what Barnwell said was undesirable about the Giants.
If you wanted to poke holes, you could say that these guys are wrong about what Rhule expects. But any logical or reasonable person sees that this article aligns perfectly with Barnwell's.
So, a logical person would see that maybe the hottest college coach out there, with you would think multiple choices, would want the "least desirable" NFL franchise. You must have a different definition of logical than most.
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Not advocating one way or the other. Just noting that Kevin Abrams doesn’t come from a talent-evaluation or coaching background. So he might be less likely to clash with a coach who wants to steer the grocery-shopping and assemble his own staff.
The main problem with Abrams, in my view, is that a lot of other dead wood is likely to stay if he does, including literal and figurative members of the Mara family.
I agree that Abrams would be a good fit as GM under a coach that once player authority.
I disagree that somehow Abrams is ahead of chris Mara in the org and would stay if he stays.
So you wouldn’t mind a guy who has been inside this organization for twenty years being exposed to this endless nonsense?
Abrams is the absolute LAST person anyone should want. With him you have to assume it’s going to be more of the same...
Andy Reid is another. Brett Veach holds the GM title, but he was a former Reid coaching intern and Eagles scout who followed Reid to KC, so you don't have to read between the lines too closely to see who has the power there.
Supposedly Kyle Shanahan is the one who selected John Lynch, not vice-versa, and I've heard people say Pete Carroll has the ultimate authority in Seattle. Don't know how true it is in either case.
So, a logical person would see that maybe the hottest college coach out there, with you would think multiple choices, would want the "least desirable" NFL franchise. You must have a different definition of logical than most.
No, because the article says he'd want them IF he has (quoting directly) -> "near-total authority".
Barnwell identified them as less desirable because the incoming coach would have LESS AUTHORITY.
So with that constraint removed, they're no longer less desirable.
I'm not really sure how that's unreasonable or hard to understand in any way. It's the same as if the Cowboys, who you claimed were less desirable because of Jerry Jones, were to suddenly be sold and Jones was no longer involved in operations. Wouldn't that make a pretty big difference in how someone views that spot?
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So, a logical person would see that maybe the hottest college coach out there, with you would think multiple choices, would want the "least desirable" NFL franchise. You must have a different definition of logical than most.
No, because the article says he'd want them IF he has (quoting directly) -> "near-total authority".
Barnwell identified them as less desirable because the incoming coach would have LESS AUTHORITY.
So with that constraint removed, they're no longer less desirable.
I'm not really sure how that's unreasonable or hard to understand in any way. It's the same as if the Cowboys, who you claimed were less desirable because of Jerry Jones, were to suddenly be sold and Jones was no longer involved in operations. Wouldn't that make a pretty big difference in how someone views that spot?
The bottom line here is Rhule's preference for the Giants blows up both Barnwell's article and your position about the Giants desirability along with it. Thus, you have to find some way to explain away the obvious contradiction.
Much appreciated.
IMHO, the onus of choosing personnel should mainly and ultimately be on the HC(except for excessive salary demands).
Thank you.
But looking at Rhule's resume...there is no comparison to successful HC in the NFL today.
It would be like finding a needle in a haystack and basically fly in the face of all of the pro analytics people.
As opposed to YOU, who's been railing against the current HC/GM since day 1, and is unashamed to beat that drum on every possible thread, day after day, month after month? If you don't think your harangues don't get old, I have news for you..........they're tiresome.
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Some want TC gone, but there is the idea that unless he retires, he will survive.
Why on earth would he survive? Jacksonville's gotten worse the longer he's been there.
He certainly deserves to be asked to "retire". But he has a built in fall guy in Caldwell. I was surprised then when TC was named VP of Football Operation that Caldwell was retained. Caldwell should have been fired then. As far as the performance on the field, they have been the most undisciplined team that I have seen. From fighting, player ejections, mindless penalties such as offsides/false starts, to the Ramsay incidents over the years culminating with him going after the coaching staff on the sidelines. That falls on the coaching staff and really is a surprise as Doug Marrone was brought in to restore discipline as Gus Bradley before was deemed to friendly with the players. Ultimately, the buck stops with TC so he shouldn't stay. But the speculation on the local news is that if he doesn't retire, then he'll get another bite of the apple. The Rhule speculation is just the 2+2 logic.
My point is that even though the OP's article says Rhule's preference is NYG, he will have plenty of options. We like to hold the Giants franchise as some model of excellence, but the reality is that there are more attractive options available.
Now we want to hire someone who's never been a HC at the pro level. He's never been an OC or DC in the pros. The most he's been at the pro-level is the "assistant" OL coach. He didn't even head up a position group.
This is who many on here want to not only hire as the HC but also allow him the authority of the GM as well?
A head coach, more than anything else, needs to be a leader of men and to be able to set a tone and expectations for everyone else on the staff and the roster. He also needs to be able to delegate to quality assistants with whom he's comfortable and who align with his coaching philosophies.
My point is that even though the OP's article says Rhule's preference is NYG, he will have plenty of options. We like to hold the Giants franchise as some model of excellence, but the reality is that there are more attractive options available.
And the recurring theme to keep in mind - it says it's his preference provided he has 'near-total authority' on personnel. Are the Giants likely to give him that?
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My point is that even though the OP's article says Rhule's preference is NYG, he will have plenty of options. We like to hold the Giants franchise as some model of excellence, but the reality is that there are more attractive options available.
And the recurring theme to keep in mind - it says it's his preference provided he has 'near-total authority' on personnel. Are the Giants likely to give him that?
I wouldn't think so nor do I think any team will give him near-total authority. Everyone agrees that a HC has every right to choose his staff. The question is whether a college HC deserves to captain the entire ship. If Saban comes through the door, well fine. If Lil Bill comes through the door, of course. Despite his success with Temple/Baylor, I don't see any team giving full autonomy to a Rhule.
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went outside their typical way of thinking and went all in on a guy like Rhule...both bw and Terps would find something to criticize.
Yeah, because those guys have been unfairly criticizing the Giants, everything the team has been doing the past few years just makes total sense.
I wonder if Matt Rhule sat and listened when Accorsi told those Bert Jones stories, because that's probably on their checklist.
Point missed.
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?
As opposed to YOU, who's been railing against the current HC/GM since day 1, and is unashamed to beat that drum on every possible thread, day after day, month after month? If you don't think your harangues don't get old, I have news for you..........they're tiresome.
Gettleman and Shurmur being bad at their jobs isn't a spun narrative. It's just the truth, like saying the sky is blue.
Incredibly there are still a lot of posters telling us Gettleman is doing a good job. They think the sky is green.
We need to clean house.
Agreed
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In comment 14716778 Go Terps said:
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?
As opposed to YOU, who's been railing against the current HC/GM since day 1, and is unashamed to beat that drum on every possible thread, day after day, month after month? If you don't think your harangues don't get old, I have news for you..........they're tiresome.
Gettleman and Shurmur being bad at their jobs isn't a spun narrative. It's just the truth, like saying the sky is blue.
Incredibly there are still a lot of posters telling us Gettleman is doing a good job. They think the sky is green.
Well, to be fair, before a really bad storm where all hell is breaks loose, the sky often turns green.
But then again, that is an apt description of where this team is!