Full disclosure. My wife is the Star Wars geek. I was more the Star Trek geek (that is, until the latest reboot destroyed Vulcan... I was out at that point). I've gone to the Star Wars movies more out of habit than enjoyment since the original trilogy. I didn't enjoy the second trilogy at all except the stormtrooper scenes. I enjoyed Force Awakens, but I quickly realized I enjoyed it because they had simply copied A New Hope. The last movie was abysmal... just a trainwreck.
As an aside, the cartoon series Clone Wars was really good and I think they are doing a reasonable job with Mandalorian (though it's obviously been made less dark for kids).
But if you are following the YouTube "Fandom Menance" channels and the corporate media trying to save the upcoming movie before it even comes out, the outright attacks on the core fanbase are unbelievable. They are literally biting the hand that feeds them. It would be like if the NFL came out and told its fans to shut-up and that your opinions don't matter. (Now they may actually think that, but even they aren't stupid enough to say it publicly).
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TFA: OMG it's too similar to ANH
TLJ: OMG it's too different
That's not to say they're perfect, but Disney is trying to cater to a fanbase that will never be happy unless the movie panders to their own ideas of how the story should go. And because the hardcore base is generally well versed in the EU/Legends Disney is fighting against expectations from that as well.
Ultimately I think the big flaw was trying to have 3 different writers/directors. The ST should have had a unifying vision from the start beyond just KKs oversight.
I couldn't disagree more. I think the SW fanbase was ready and willing to embrace the new movies. Remember when Yoda fought Dooku in Attack of the Clones? Star Wars fans LOVED it. To see Yoda as not just a wise mentor but a warrior was awesome. They took a character we knew and grew his legacy and story.
To make Luke Skywalker a hermit on a remote planet and to die of force exhaustion was the complete opposite. Instead of enhancing his legacy, they soiled it and changed it into something unrecognizable to the character we cared about.
I have no problem with Luke being flawed, though it certainly could have been written better.
And while the ST diminishes the ending of RotJ, it's helped paint a picture that things in the GFFA aren't too rosy for anyone after the fall of the Empire. The NR is dysfunctional at best and incompetent at worst. Mando even calls them a joke, although thats only 5 years after the DS2 went boom, but they really don't improve much between Mandalorian and TFA.
I certainly don't agree with all the choices Disney made, and I think RJ was an awful choice for TLJ, but I can reconcile the direction they took with the OT heroes.
I am really trying not to get political, but Disney is in your face with this stuff and attacks anyone who complains.
They have practically taken over RottenTomatoes to tamper down dissent.
Sorry in advance if this is considered political and understand if the post is removed.
RottenTomatoes is weird. The last two movies I loved - Joker and Midway - the audiences also loved. But the critics hated.
It's not just the modern day political subcontext, it's idiotic stuff like Rey being able to defeat Kylo Ren in the first movie without ANY Jedi training. (1) So why did Luke or any other Jedi ever need ANY training? and (2) She's already beaten the dude. When it happens again, so what?
It's crap like that. Just lazy, stupid writing.
Wouldn't Rey going through training be the carbon copy that everyone is saying they hated in TFA?
I took her training to be what's transpiring in the 3 movies, not a direct Rocky montage scene. And aren't some people prodigy's in real life? Why can't that work in Star Wars?
I still think its funny that you think the true die hards are "pissed off". There's so much entitlement in that statement.
Their money isn't any greener than mine.
Now, theres no novelty. Its re-re-rehashing it. Things feel added to try and bring back the novelty but you cant. The second trilogy was exciting to have back, but terrible movies. The whole thing starts with a trade dispute? Darths backstory Is a love affair? Darth is a title? The acting? Famous actors? Jar jar? Pod racing? Mitachlorians? Ugh. The magic was trampled.
I thought Awakens was fresh from the characters, but a rehash for sure. And Hamill did this great appearance where he talked about getting in shape and then he finds out his whole part is turning around and taking off a hood. Pretty funny. Last Jedi, meh. The end was bad and Rey having super Force powers with no training? Weak. I did like the idea of a trooper questioning things.
With the quality of digital effects, its a shame but we expect perfection. There is no wow factor. They can throw a few new things in but its hard to wow us because we know the universe now. Its not new. And weve seen every effect from dinosaurs to time travel to space to liquid terminators. Much harder to do something to wow an audience.
Now, theres no novelty. Its re-re-rehashing it. Things feel added to try and bring back the novelty but you cant. The second trilogy was exciting to have back, but terrible movies. The whole thing starts with a trade dispute? Darths backstory Is a love affair? Darth is a title? The acting? Famous actors? Jar jar? Pod racing? Mitachlorians? Ugh. The magic was trampled.
I thought Awakens was fresh from the characters, but a rehash for sure. And Hamill did this great appearance where he talked about getting in shape and then he finds out his whole part is turning around and taking off a hood. Pretty funny. Last Jedi, meh. The end was bad and Rey having super Force powers with no training? Weak. I did like the idea of a trooper questioning things.
With the quality of digital effects, its a shame but we expect perfection. There is no wow factor. They can throw a few new things in but its hard to wow us because we know the universe now. Its not new. And weve seen every effect from dinosaurs to time travel to space to liquid terminators. Much harder to do something to wow an audience.
I certainly don't agree with all the choices Disney made, and I think RJ was an awful choice for TLJ, but I can reconcile the direction they took with the OT heroes.
Is there a translation available? And what the hell is KOTOR?
Who says SW diehards don't have a SOH - ( New Window )
And let's say that's something you would accept as possible, when she beats him again in the new movie, yawn.
Why is their money better than yours? It's not. But when you shit all over your diehard fan base, you're likely to lose money too.
It's stupid business. And they are going to suffer for it. (BTW, they got caught lying in their corporate report just how much money they have been losing because of their decisions.... they buried the figures in other categories).
Now, theres no novelty. Its re-re-rehashing it. Things feel added to try and bring back the novelty but you cant. The second trilogy was exciting to have back, but terrible movies. The whole thing starts with a trade dispute? Darths backstory Is a love affair? Darth is a title? The acting? Famous actors? Jar jar? Pod racing? Mitachlorians? Ugh. The magic was trampled.
I thought Awakens was fresh from the characters, but a rehash for sure. And Hamill did this great appearance where he talked about getting in shape and then he finds out his whole part is turning around and taking off a hood. Pretty funny. Last Jedi, meh. The end was bad and Rey having super Force powers with no training? Weak. I did like the idea of a trooper questioning things.
With the quality of digital effects, its a shame but we expect perfection. There is no wow factor. They can throw a few new things in but its hard to wow us because we know the universe now. Its not new. And weve seen every effect from dinosaurs to time travel to space to liquid terminators. Much harder to do something to wow an audience.
The special effects were very innovative for 1977 and spawned many, many copycats.
It was transformed by devoted fans into "canon", and books and this whole mythology. They are the people who kept it going.
It's not just the modern day political subcontext, it's idiotic stuff like Rey being able to defeat Kylo Ren in the first movie without ANY Jedi training. (1) So why did Luke or any other Jedi ever need ANY training? and (2) She's already beaten the dude. When it happens again, so what?
It's crap like that. Just lazy, stupid writing.
I could be slightly off-base because it has been a little while since I watched The Force Awakens, but I believe that
1.) Kylo Ren had just taken a gutshot from Chewie's bowcaster, which is depicted as being so powerful it knocks back any non-Wookies who use it. So he was very injured.
2.) It's more of a draw than a win for Ren. Isn't the ground/planet being blown apart and that + Finn intervening serves to interrupt the end of the fight.
Her fighting Kylo Ren and not losing was basically their take on the first Luke/Vader faceoff that ends with Luke running away. You could complain that she wasn't hurt or maimed like Luke was by Vader, but that's a nitpick.
It's dumb. It's not believable. And as I keep pointing out, it makes the next round between the two pointless.
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And while the ST diminishes the ending of RotJ, it's helped paint a picture that things in the GFFA aren't too rosy for anyone after the fall of the Empire. The NR is dysfunctional at best and incompetent at worst. Mando even calls them a joke, although thats only 5 years after the DS2 went boom, but they really don't improve much between Mandalorian and TFA.
I certainly don't agree with all the choices Disney made, and I think RJ was an awful choice for TLJ, but I can reconcile the direction they took with the OT heroes.
Is there a translation available? And what the hell is KOTOR? Who says SW diehards don't have a SOH - ( New Window )
In order:
Sequel Trilogy
Return of the Jedi
Galaxy Far Far Away
New Republic
Death Star 2
The Force Awakens
Rian Johnson
The Last Jedi
Original Trilogy
KOTOR = Knights of the Old Republic. It's a video game
And let's say that's something you would accept as possible, when she beats him again in the new movie, yawn.
Why is their money better than yours? It's not. But when you shit all over your diehard fan base, you're likely to lose money too.
It's stupid business. And they are going to suffer for it. (BTW, they got caught lying in their corporate report just how much money they have been losing because of their decisions.... they buried the figures in other categories).
Some rambling thoughts.
Eric, I'm in the middle in this a bit. THe criticisms of Rey, that she's a "Mary Sue" character are a bit overblown. Luke blew up the death star without training. If anything, the fact that Kylo Ren could stop a freaking lazer bolt and hold it, which nobody we know could ever do, including Vader, etc., is more annyoing to me. But power creep is very common with follow up characters.
Regarding her beating Kylo, didn't they make a big point about how he was fucking shot through the abdomen and bleeding out? That's why he was weak. As far as we know, Luke was never taught any swordsmanship from Yoda. Yet he fought duels with Vader twice and didn't get killed by the most powerful sith swordsman in the universe.
On the other side, While some of the criticisms of Rey seem a bit incel-ish, I do find the tendency to read any criticism as sexism to be cheap and pandering (and what we've seen as an easy way to deflect any possible fan revolt with Capt. Marvel, Ghostbusters, etc.).
I wish they'd be nuanced and say "some people may be motivated by this. . .". Unfortunately, the loudest people on social media are often the most dickish. So, maybe they are just responding to the most vocal assholes, not everybody.
I agree with everybody that the treatment of Luke in TLJ was a downer. After 3 viewings, I've learned to appreciate it for what is was and forgive it, so to speak. I hold out home that somehow JJ will keep Luke around as a mentor and important figure.
From what I can see, KK really wasn't the best person for Lucas to trust with the franchise, and it's a bummer, but in retrospect, she seemed a good shepherd at the time. "The force is female" is just dumb, and given statements like that, it's understandable that some fans see her trying to cram some SJW stuff in (like the wise patient women vs. the hotheaded men sub-theme in TLF). But I don't think one has to see it like that. Personally, I love to see a badass female lead, and as a father of girls, I like that they can have posters of Rey on the wall.
One thing she is doing right is giving creative space to Dave Filoni, the person behind Clone Wars (and much of the Mandalorian), and he's s really creative guy, who loves Lucas and Star Wars. Not just an executive.
And to Fats--Star Wars is not sci-fi, it's fantasy literature set in space, and tapped into a deep vein of mythological concepts. As you probably know, Lucas was absorbed in Joseph Campbell's work while doing ANH, and it hit some of us (myself included) on that deep, primordial level, not unlike Tolkien or Robert Howard's writings. I think that's why many people were moved by it and are emotionally attached to the characters after so many years.
If people can be pissed at how GOT dealt with it's characters in an 8-year series, it's not shocking that some would be let down by how Luke was treated when he was the hero of their youthful mythology.
The big problem with the Disney Star Wars has been touched on by earlier posters - they didn't outline the main story ahead of time and instead decided to have directors come in & put their own spin on it. Which has led to a feeling of disjointedness as plot threads have been raised and dropped with unsatisfying resolutions - Rey's parentage, the Knights of Ren, Snoke's entire character, etc.
Why they would opt for this method of movie making when they spent a billion dollars on the franchise rights and had the Marvel movie blueprint to copy from, I have absolutely no idea.
When you take all that into account the hardcore fanbase possessing a cynical attitude seems fair. The suggestion the modern trilogy from Disney provides nothing than an attempt to entice a new generation with fancy VFX and CGI to ensure money and profit for years to come sounds like a reasonable conclusion.
It's dumb. It's not believable. And as I keep pointing out, it makes the next round between the two pointless.
Darth Vader was a full-fledged Sith Lord with the greatest force powers ever, as pointed out by the prequel trilogy. Kylo Ren was a half-trained wannabe with a laser wound in his chest - and he still didn't lose (correct me if I'm misremembering that bit).
If they just made this new sequel series the basic story of the Thrawn Trillogy, but tweaked to add some features and drop others, make sense of older Luke and the rest, the fans would have been utterly psyched.
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I don't think there has ever been a prodigy who has picked up a sword for the first time and defeated another sword master.
And let's say that's something you would accept as possible, when she beats him again in the new movie, yawn.
Why is their money better than yours? It's not. But when you shit all over your diehard fan base, you're likely to lose money too.
It's stupid business. And they are going to suffer for it. (BTW, they got caught lying in their corporate report just how much money they have been losing because of their decisions.... they buried the figures in other categories).
Some rambling thoughts.
Eric, I'm in the middle in this a bit. THe criticisms of Rey, that she's a "Mary Sue" character are a bit overblown. Luke blew up the death star without training. If anything, the fact that Kylo Ren could stop a freaking lazer bolt and hold it, which nobody we know could ever do, including Vader, etc., is more annyoing to me. But power creep is very common with follow up characters.
Regarding her beating Kylo, didn't they make a big point about how he was fucking shot through the abdomen and bleeding out? That's why he was weak. As far as we know, Luke was never taught any swordsmanship from Yoda. Yet he fought duels with Vader twice and didn't get killed by the most powerful sith swordsman in the universe.
On the other side, While some of the criticisms of Rey seem a bit incel-ish, I do find the tendency to read any criticism as sexism to be cheap and pandering (and what we've seen as an easy way to deflect any possible fan revolt with Capt. Marvel, Ghostbusters, etc.).
I wish they'd be nuanced and say "some people may be motivated by this. . .". Unfortunately, the loudest people on social media are often the most dickish. So, maybe they are just responding to the most vocal assholes, not everybody.
I agree with everybody that the treatment of Luke in TLJ was a downer. After 3 viewings, I've learned to appreciate it for what is was and forgive it, so to speak. I hold out home that somehow JJ will keep Luke around as a mentor and important figure.
From what I can see, KK really wasn't the best person for Lucas to trust with the franchise, and it's a bummer, but in retrospect, she seemed a good shepherd at the time. "The force is female" is just dumb, and given statements like that, it's understandable that some fans see her trying to cram some SJW stuff in (like the wise patient women vs. the hotheaded men sub-theme in TLF). But I don't think one has to see it like that. Personally, I love to see a badass female lead, and as a father of girls, I like that they can have posters of Rey on the wall.
One thing she is doing right is giving creative space to Dave Filoni, the person behind Clone Wars (and much of the Mandalorian), and he's s really creative guy, who loves Lucas and Star Wars. Not just an executive.
And to Fats--Star Wars is not sci-fi, it's fantasy literature set in space, and tapped into a deep vein of mythological concepts. As you probably know, Lucas was absorbed in Joseph Campbell's work while doing ANH, and it hit some of us (myself included) on that deep, primordial level, not unlike Tolkien or Robert Howard's writings. I think that's why many people were moved by it and are emotionally attached to the characters after so many years.
If people can be pissed at how GOT dealt with it's characters in an 8-year series, it's not shocking that some would be let down by how Luke was treated when he was the hero of their youthful mythology.
Well it is established in ANH that Luke is a very good pilot and could bullseye womp rats which are only 2 meters.
But yes Luke does take to using the force very quickly. His "first step into a larger world" was right when they got to Alderan. He's blowing up the Death Star hours later...
From a story arc perspective, it makes the inevitable round two between these two anti-climatic. It's stupid writing. "Yeah, she beat him again!"
But this is only one, albeit major, issue of dozens and dozens with the the latest trilogy. (And I'm not even a Star Wars geek). I came out of the last movie saying, "I'm done." My son convinced me to watch Mandalorian and I'm glad he did.
If you haven't seen the Red Letter Media guy's Mr. Plinkett video on it, he gives a breakdown of a more believable plot and you are left wondering why we didn't get that movie instead.
The Last Jedi was horrendous. I don't see this series being redeemed, the writing is already screwed.
When you take all that into account the hardcore fanbase possessing a cynical attitude seems fair. The suggestion the modern trilogy from Disney provides nothing than an attempt to entice a new generation with fancy VFX and CGI to ensure money and profit for years to come sounds like a reasonable conclusion.
It feels like they winged it. Like they didn't chart out the story arc and are just doing it on the fly.
She and I are pretty much in the same place, except I'm a dad sharing it with my daughters.
She should watch Solo. It was a fun movie, and unfortunately suffered because people were so pissed at TLJ.
I go to movies to get away from all the bullshit in real life, sucks now that the whininess is leaking into movies now.
If you haven't seen the Red Letter Media guy's Mr. Plinkett video on it, he gives a breakdown of a more believable plot and you are left wondering why we didn't get that movie instead.
The Last Jedi was horrendous. I don't see this series being redeemed, the writing is already screwed.
RotS redeemed the hilariously bad AotC... actually it redeemed the whole PT.
This is a solid explanation--except for the fact that he can fucking stop a laser beam in mid-shot and hold it there. No other force user ever did (could?) do that.
But in that scene, he combined that with one momentary connection with the Force when to pull the trigger for the bomb. Not the same as having to be able to master a martial art.
Now you are correct that he later becomes quite adept at sword fighting, but we have no idea how much training he has undergone by that point. It's more believable.
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being characterized as a Jedi Master in training is technically true but overstating it. Like saying Lorenzo Carter is a Pro-Bowl Linebacker in training. It's their goal, sure, but they still aren't close. Kylo seemed to be in the Padawan stages when he turned on Luke. And Snoke dosn't come across as much of a teacher - he doesn't want Kylo getting stronger than him.
This is a solid explanation--except for the fact that he can fucking stop a laser beam in mid-shot and hold it there. No other force user ever did (could?) do that.
*Shrug* They just effortlessly ninja-deflect the laser blasts back at the people shooting them. That seems more effective and less focus-intensive than what Kylo pulled off. Shows that he has strong, innate Force abilities but little knowledge on how to control them effectively.
She and I are pretty much in the same place, except I'm a dad sharing it with my daughters.
She should watch Solo. It was a fun movie, and unfortunately suffered because people were so pissed at TLJ.
We like Rey too. We actually think the strength of the new trilogy is the casting. That's not our issue.
It reminded me of the Transformers movie in the mid 1980s where they kill Starscream and god damn OPTIMUS PRIME. I watched the show "Toys That Made Us" that is on Netflix and they talked about the Transformer toys. It was made clear in the discussion of the Trasnformers movie, it was a deliberate decision made by the corporate leadership to do this in order to introduce a new line of transformers for the kids to buy. But they ended up turning off the audience so bad that the sales tanked and took years to recover in a reboot (including bringing Prime back).
Anyway, I'm going on Friday with my sons. My expectations are kinda low. I figure it will be some variation of Return of the Jedi 2.0 because we saw how JJ Abrams handled things. The Emperor is such a kick ass character, I hope they don't ruin him along the way. And if Chewie has to die, don't have him go out like a pussy. That's all I ask.
But in that scene, he combined that with one momentary connection with the Force when to pull the trigger for the bomb. Not the same as having to be able to master a martial art.
Now you are correct that he later becomes quite adept at sword fighting, but we have no idea how much training he has undergone by that point. It's more believable.
Rey is introduced as an experienced scavenger with already developed combat abilities - doesn't she beat down some rivals with her bo-staff on Jakku at the very beginning? She's not supposed to be a helpless girl with no fighting experience.
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Regarding Luke, he was a pilot. And pretty good at nailing swamp rats as far as I heard.
But in that scene, he combined that with one momentary connection with the Force when to pull the trigger for the bomb. Not the same as having to be able to master a martial art.
Now you are correct that he later becomes quite adept at sword fighting, but we have no idea how much training he has undergone by that point. It's more believable.
Rey is introduced as an experienced scavenger with already developed combat abilities - doesn't she beat down some rivals with her bo-staff on Jakku at the very beginning? She's not supposed to be a helpless girl with no fighting experience.
This.
She had an enormously tough life already and could fight.
Rogue One was for Gen X star wars fan. But then I outgrew SW when I was 13 so no big loss.
Who knew people were interested in Science Fiction and Fantasy as genres for entertainment? Are you a complete fucking moron or just a smug one?
Who knew you'd care enough to grace us with your presence. Solid contribution.
It's crazy. We also like reading. And chess. And the arts. Complicated world, I'm sure.
Idiot.
(By the way, did you see the clips of how they botched the Rey fighting scene with Snopes' guards? They had to deliberately miss her because she was exposed. (The director didn't reshoot the scene).
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Other issue that immediately comes to mind... do you realize they have made all future fleet combat meaningless??? All you have to do is send one of your crappier ships into hyperdrive and you can destroy an entire fleet. (Forget the fact that's not how hyperspace is supposed to work).
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Who knew?
It's crazy. We also like reading. And chess. And the arts. Complicated world, I'm sure.
Idiot.
E4 or D4?
Have you read the Darth Bane trilogy? To me, that is by far the best Star Wars content ever created. He references Darth Revan in the books so I have been curious about reading that trilogy as well, but I heard that without having played KOTOR, it wouldn't mean much to me. Clone Wars was an excellent show, but I preferred Rebels. I am absolutely looking forward to the next season of Clone Wars.
Is there some sort of massive campaign underway that women have to model themselves after Rey??
If that's the line of thinking, you can probably draw many more parallels to the Marvel Universe doing this than Star Wars.