Hypothetically...if we didn't draft Jones last season and still ended up with the same record this season and were drafting 4th, what would you do?
Would you trade up for Joe Burrows? (What we did for Eli)
Or
Would you stay put and draft Tua Tagovailoa? (What could have been done with Rivers)
Or
Would you trade back and select one of the other QBs like Justin Herbert or Jordan Love? (What we thought about doing for Big Ben)
Seems like this draft would have been pretty interesting if we didn't draft a QB last season, especially with a new Head Coach coming in...not that it isn't already interesting.
Of course the QBs for this class seem to have lost some shine since the 18 draft...
In general, I'm glad the Giants got their QB in last year's draft and aren't facing that particular choice.
we shall see
You’d have to believe they’d be all in on some qb. Trade up? DG didn’t trade up for jones. It’s actually rare these days to se a team NOT trade up for the qb. The number of times a team trades up for a qb is actually very high. Surprisingly high.
lol
Jones has potential, but he also fumbles when sneezed on and only won 3 games in 12 starts.
In fact, 10 of the last 11 first-round quarterbacks have been drafted by a team that traded up to get him.
Giants didn’t have to trade a ton of capital for their qb. Are we allowed to give credit to DG for that one? No guts no glory... Remember that line? Kinda cool no.
Link - ( New Window )
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I am really happy Gettleman took Jones. He was laughed at and mocked from one end of the football world to the other for taking Jones. But in the end, Gettleman was right and everyone else was wrong.
lol
Jones has potential, but he also fumbles when sneezed on and only won 3 games in 12 starts.
If you got "sneezed" on that hard, you'd be in a cast on several limbs....
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In comment 14755472 JohnB said:
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I am really happy Gettleman took Jones. He was laughed at and mocked from one end of the football world to the other for taking Jones. But in the end, Gettleman was right and everyone else was wrong.
lol
Jones has potential, but he also fumbles when sneezed on and only won 3 games in 12 starts.
If you got "sneezed" on that hard, you'd be in a cast on several limbs....
Yes, but it's all relative.
Let's not pretend or ignore that he led the league in fumbles, and didn't even play the full 16 games...
Thank the lord we got DJ plenty of experience in 2019 so 2020 is more of a development year for him versus a shell-shock year. If he takes the next steps on pocket awareness, a little more mobility and some arm strength, then we should be estatic.
I hope DJ is really the goods but I would have been more apt to wait yet another year (until 2020) to pick the QB.
Restructuring the Giants by DG is an odd process indeed...
They won't, but I would too. Burrows looks like a superstar to me.
Herbert intrigues the hell out of me. He's an incredible athlete and can hum it. And you give him credit for bouncing back this year after a sub-par year last year. But I don't see him hitting the ground running and wouldn't trust him at #4.
I wouldn't trade up for Burrow. Would probably require too much draft capital.
So I would hone in on Tua. If he clears the medical, which is going to be a huge and a big if, I would seriously consider him at #4. Otherwise, I'd hope he drops and find a partner at the right spot...
Or, tank 2020. And wait for the biggest jewel in a decade - Lawrence...
As for Herbert, I don't see it. I kept waiting to be impressed by him...I watched a ton of him living out here... But I never was. Even if we didn't have Jones I wouldn't want Herbert at 4. I'd rather hire Roman and draft Hurts in round 2.
As for Herbert, I don't see it. I kept waiting to be impressed by him...I watched a ton of him living out here... But I never was. Even if we didn't have Jones I wouldn't want Herbert at 4. I'd rather hire Roman and draft Hurts in round 2.
Hurts was a complete dumpster fire in the playoff game when he wasn’t facing non existent defenses in the Big 12
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The obvious Madden trade is Jones and Barkley to Cincy to draft Burrow, but that probably doesn't get it done.
As for Herbert, I don't see it. I kept waiting to be impressed by him...I watched a ton of him living out here... But I never was. Even if we didn't have Jones I wouldn't want Herbert at 4. I'd rather hire Roman and draft Hurts in round 2.
Hurts was a complete dumpster fire in the playoff game when he wasn’t facing non existent defenses in the Big 12
Hurts is never going to face a talent deficiency like what existed in that game. LSU obliterated Oklahoma in every way.
As for Herbert, I don't see it. I kept waiting to be impressed by him...I watched a ton of him living out here... But I never was. Even if we didn't have Jones I wouldn't want Herbert at 4. I'd rather hire Roman and draft Hurts in round 2.
I was way down on Herbert. But I liked the bounce back. Went from 59% completion% to almost 67%. That's a nice bump. And he's coming into the league with > 35 starts. So there is a nice foundation. But I agree, at #4 he's not worth the stretch.
I like the idea of trading Jones to stock up on more picks. And then waiting for 2021, only because I think Lawrence is > than Burrow. What's do you think Jones's market value is?
I'm very disappointed Roman isn't in the mix. The thought of him devising an offense around Jones-Barkely-Engram really intrigues me.
Didn't know you were in the Emerald City. I have a good friend outside Seattle. I'm out there a few times a year to visit. Really enjoy it.
Did Baby Terps arrive yet?
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In comment 14755591 Go Terps said:
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The obvious Madden trade is Jones and Barkley to Cincy to draft Burrow, but that probably doesn't get it done.
As for Herbert, I don't see it. I kept waiting to be impressed by him...I watched a ton of him living out here... But I never was. Even if we didn't have Jones I wouldn't want Herbert at 4. I'd rather hire Roman and draft Hurts in round 2.
Hurts was a complete dumpster fire in the playoff game when he wasn’t facing non existent defenses in the Big 12
Hurts is never going to face a talent deficiency like what existed in that game. LSU obliterated Oklahoma in every way.
Hurts probably already knew, he watched Bama give them a thug life beat down last year and it was over at halftime like this past game. Less talent this time around.
Thank the lord we got DJ plenty of experience in 2019 so 2020 is more of a development year for him versus a shell-shock year. If he takes the next steps on pocket awareness, a little more mobility and some arm strength, then we should be estatic.
I hope DJ is really the goods but I would have been more apt to wait yet another year (until 2020) to pick the QB.
Restructuring the Giants by DG is an odd process indeed...
I really don't know how many times I can say this, but Jones had a fantastic season for a rookie. I don't care if he fumbled 11 times. I know it is something he needs to fix, but ignoring the numbers he put up is crazy talk.
In 12 games as a starter, Jones was tied for 13th in TD passes (with a guy named Tom Brady). For reference, in the same offense - but with better weapons last season - Eli threw for 21 TDs in 16 games. Do people understand this.
On his show this morning, Boomer raved about Jones and believes that he and Barkley make this job more attractive than any other available one on the market. He believes Jones is a true star in the making. I would say Boomer knows a little about QBing in the NFL.
I'm not saying to crown him yet. But you also cannot ignore his potential.
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The obvious Madden trade is Jones and Barkley to Cincy to draft Burrow, but that probably doesn't get it done.
As for Herbert, I don't see it. I kept waiting to be impressed by him...I watched a ton of him living out here... But I never was. Even if we didn't have Jones I wouldn't want Herbert at 4. I'd rather hire Roman and draft Hurts in round 2.
I was way down on Herbert. But I liked the bounce back. Went from 59% completion% to almost 67%. That's a nice bump. And he's coming into the league with > 35 starts. So there is a nice foundation. But I agree, at #4 he's not worth the stretch.
I like the idea of trading Jones to stock up on more picks. And then waiting for 2021, only because I think Lawrence is > than Burrow. What's do you think Jones's market value is?
I'm very disappointed Roman isn't in the mix. The thought of him devising an offense around Jones-Barkely-Engram really intrigues me.
Didn't know you were in the Emerald City. I have a good friend outside Seattle. I'm out there a few times a year to visit. Really enjoy it.
Did Baby Terps arrive yet?
So we trade Jones after the season he just had - why I don't know - and your plan is to just wait until next year because you're in love with Lawrence.
So, aside of all the other things wrong with your plan, exactly how do you guarantee getting Lawrence? The new coach coming in and ordering the troops to go 0-16. Because if we don't get the #1 pick, we aren't going to be able to trade up and get Lawrence. So I'm happy you think it's pretty simple to just say, hey, 2021 and Lawrence is our guy. And we're guaranteed to get him. Good to know.
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In comment 14755591 Go Terps said:
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The obvious Madden trade is Jones and Barkley to Cincy to draft Burrow, but that probably doesn't get it done.
As for Herbert, I don't see it. I kept waiting to be impressed by him...I watched a ton of him living out here... But I never was. Even if we didn't have Jones I wouldn't want Herbert at 4. I'd rather hire Roman and draft Hurts in round 2.
I was way down on Herbert. But I liked the bounce back. Went from 59% completion% to almost 67%. That's a nice bump. And he's coming into the league with > 35 starts. So there is a nice foundation. But I agree, at #4 he's not worth the stretch.
I like the idea of trading Jones to stock up on more picks. And then waiting for 2021, only because I think Lawrence is > than Burrow. What's do you think Jones's market value is?
I'm very disappointed Roman isn't in the mix. The thought of him devising an offense around Jones-Barkely-Engram really intrigues me.
Didn't know you were in the Emerald City. I have a good friend outside Seattle. I'm out there a few times a year to visit. Really enjoy it.
Did Baby Terps arrive yet?
So we trade Jones after the season he just had - why I don't know - and your plan is to just wait until next year because you're in love with Lawrence.
So, aside of all the other things wrong with your plan, exactly how do you guarantee getting Lawrence? The new coach coming in and ordering the troops to go 0-16. Because if we don't get the #1 pick, we aren't going to be able to trade up and get Lawrence. So I'm happy you think it's pretty simple to just say, hey, 2021 and Lawrence is our guy. And we're guaranteed to get him. Good to know.
Personally, if it were me, I'd just tank until 2027 when we could get Arch Manning. That should satisfy all Giants' fans. If we keep following the Giants' Way, well, we'll probably be in position to draft Arch Manning anyway. Just follow DSG and Mara down the path of no return.
Lmao no we wouldnt.
So we trade Jones after the season he just had - why I don't know - and your plan is to just wait until next year because you're in love with Lawrence.
So, aside of all the other things wrong with your plan, exactly how do you guarantee getting Lawrence? The new coach coming in and ordering the troops to go 0-16. Because if we don't get the #1 pick, we aren't going to be able to trade up and get Lawrence. So I'm happy you think it's pretty simple to just say, hey, 2021 and Lawrence is our guy. And we're guaranteed to get him. Good to know.
I certainly realize there are a lot of moving parts to the idea. And many of them would need to fall in place to get the desired outcome. But if we got a #1 for Jones, and had a poor season in 2020 (say we're bottom five in the league) we could have enough draft capital to trade up for the top spot to grab Lawrence.
He's a great, great prospect. I contend if he players could declare for the NFL out of high school, Lawrence would have been the #1 pick in 2017.
Re: Jones. He had a very nice year. Lot of good, lot of bad. But encouraging. Yet, I'm not quite sure he's got that elite status that I tend to prefer...
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We would be playing this weekend but whatever.
Lmao no we wouldnt.
Lamar isn't playing this weekend either, because he led his team to the best record in the league and has a bye. But even today I've read people saying we're better off with Jones.
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So we trade Jones after the season he just had - why I don't know - and your plan is to just wait until next year because you're in love with Lawrence.
So, aside of all the other things wrong with your plan, exactly how do you guarantee getting Lawrence? The new coach coming in and ordering the troops to go 0-16. Because if we don't get the #1 pick, we aren't going to be able to trade up and get Lawrence. So I'm happy you think it's pretty simple to just say, hey, 2021 and Lawrence is our guy. And we're guaranteed to get him. Good to know.
I certainly realize there are a lot of moving parts to the idea. And many of them would need to fall in place to get the desired outcome. But if we got a #1 for Jones, and had a poor season in 2020 (say we're bottom five in the league) we could have enough draft capital to trade up for the top spot to grab Lawrence.
He's a great, great prospect. I contend if he players could declare for the NFL out of high school, Lawrence would have been the #1 pick in 2017.
Re: Jones. He had a very nice year. Lot of good, lot of bad. But encouraging. Yet, I'm not quite sure he's got that elite status that I tend to prefer...
You cannot accumulate enough draft capital to move up and get a guy like Lawrence. He's the highest rated QB prospect by the experts since Elway. The only way you are getting Lawrence is if you finish with the worst record in the league. It's that simple. Are you confident the Giants will be in position to do that next season? Even if we traded off Jones for a first or whatever, we'll be competing with other teams, I imagine.
Look at the Dolphins. They attempted to Tank for Tua - who may ironically not even be in this draft - and ended up winning five games. You just cannot predict what will happen. What if Lawrence returns to school? What if he suffers a career ending injury? You don't know. Stop with the nonsense - we are not trading Jones.
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In comment 14755642 Giants38 said:
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So we trade Jones after the season he just had - why I don't know - and your plan is to just wait until next year because you're in love with Lawrence.
So, aside of all the other things wrong with your plan, exactly how do you guarantee getting Lawrence? The new coach coming in and ordering the troops to go 0-16. Because if we don't get the #1 pick, we aren't going to be able to trade up and get Lawrence. So I'm happy you think it's pretty simple to just say, hey, 2021 and Lawrence is our guy. And we're guaranteed to get him. Good to know.
I certainly realize there are a lot of moving parts to the idea. And many of them would need to fall in place to get the desired outcome. But if we got a #1 for Jones, and had a poor season in 2020 (say we're bottom five in the league) we could have enough draft capital to trade up for the top spot to grab Lawrence.
He's a great, great prospect. I contend if he players could declare for the NFL out of high school, Lawrence would have been the #1 pick in 2017.
Re: Jones. He had a very nice year. Lot of good, lot of bad. But encouraging. Yet, I'm not quite sure he's got that elite status that I tend to prefer...
You cannot accumulate enough draft capital to move up and get a guy like Lawrence. He's the highest rated QB prospect by the experts since Elway. The only way you are getting Lawrence is if you finish with the worst record in the league. It's that simple. Are you confident the Giants will be in position to do that next season? Even if we traded off Jones for a first or whatever, we'll be competing with other teams, I imagine.
Look at the Dolphins. They attempted to Tank for Tua - who may ironically not even be in this draft - and ended up winning five games. You just cannot predict what will happen. What if Lawrence returns to school? What if he suffers a career ending injury? You don't know. Stop with the nonsense - we are not trading Jones.
You do not trade QBs who threw for 24 TDs in 12 games and broke several rookie records. That is just not something you do. I don't care if he fumbled the ball 85 times. You don't trade guys like that - they do not grow on trees. People can find any weakness they want, and all I hear is Jones won't become a guy like DeSean Watson. Well, guess what, this year, Jones and Watson had nearly identical TD% and INT% rates. And Watson is in his third year, with a better coach. So I wouldn't go discounting Jones so fast.
Last year at this time, a bunch of people said we should wait until 2020 to draft the QB.
Last year at this time, a bunch of people said we should wait until 2020 to draft the QB.
Once we paid Eli's bonus that would have been the right course of action.
Last year at this time, a bunch of people said we should wait until 2020 to draft the QB.
People are actually advocating trading a QB who threw 24 TDs in 12 games because there may be a tremendous QB prospect in next year's draft. Jones may have fumbled 11 times, but he is also responsible for four of the five games in which a rookie QB accounted for at least 4 TDs, 300 yards passing, and 0 INTs in one game. He threw at least one TD in every game. And he did this in a season where Engram missed a ton of time, Shepard missed a ton of time, Tate missed games, and Barkley was rarely healthy for the games in which he played.
I seriously cannot believe we are even having this discussion. I don't care how good people think Burrow or Lawrence are or will be. Their teams would easily sign up for those guys to throw 24 TDs in 12 games as rookies.
In his rookie year, the prodigal son Andrew Luck played in 16 games. He threw for 23 TDs and 18 INTs. That was in 2012. He didn't complete 62% of his passes until his fourth season. Guess they should have traded him.
This discussion about dealing Jones or eschewing him for someone else is stupid talk.
You cannot accumulate enough draft capital to move up and get a guy like Lawrence. He's the highest rated QB prospect by the experts since Elway. The only way you are getting Lawrence is if you finish with the worst record in the league. It's that simple. Are you confident the Giants will be in position to do that next season? Even if we traded off Jones for a first or whatever, we'll be competing with other teams, I imagine.
Look at the Dolphins. They attempted to Tank for Tua - who may ironically not even be in this draft - and ended up winning five games. You just cannot predict what will happen. What if Lawrence returns to school? What if he suffers a career ending injury? You don't know. Stop with the nonsense - we are not trading Jones.
I agree. There is no way Jints Central is trading Jones. They have hitched there wagon to him. So all of this is just spit-balling and theorizing.
Look, I'm just hitting the pause button on Jones. And I don't like think anyone on this team right now should be off-limits or, as Terps says, on scholarship.
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I am really happy Gettleman took Jones. He was laughed at and mocked from one end of the football world to the other for taking Jones. But in the end, Gettleman was right and everyone else was wrong.
lol
Jones has potential, but he also fumbles when sneezed on and only won 3 games in 12 starts.
People posting his win total is the great BBI IQ test. How many games did Peyton Manning win his rookie year?
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You cannot accumulate enough draft capital to move up and get a guy like Lawrence. He's the highest rated QB prospect by the experts since Elway. The only way you are getting Lawrence is if you finish with the worst record in the league. It's that simple. Are you confident the Giants will be in position to do that next season? Even if we traded off Jones for a first or whatever, we'll be competing with other teams, I imagine.
Look at the Dolphins. They attempted to Tank for Tua - who may ironically not even be in this draft - and ended up winning five games. You just cannot predict what will happen. What if Lawrence returns to school? What if he suffers a career ending injury? You don't know. Stop with the nonsense - we are not trading Jones.
I agree. There is no way Jints Central is trading Jones. They have hitched there wagon to him. So all of this is just spit-balling and theorizing.
Look, I'm just hitting the pause button on Jones. And I don't like think anyone on this team right now should be off-limits or, as Terps says, on scholarship.
We could trade Jones, pick whatever QB we wanted, maybe even get Lawrence in 2021. And after Lawrence's rookie season, we'd be asking if he is the answer. There is almost no scenario under which I could see this fanbase just accepting a QB as the future of the franchise.
Lamar Jackson just put up an amazing second season. Mahomes put up one too (he only started one game as a rookie). I wonder what people here would have said after Jackson flopped in the POs last year. Or if they'd have suggested trading Mahomes because he only started one game in 2017 and hitting the reset button for QBs in the 2018 Draft - which was highly, highly touted at one time.
We ran Shurmur out of town because he was an awful coach. Many of us wanted DSG gone because he was awful at assembling a competitive roster - namely, an OL to block. And now people want to trade Jones before getting him to his second season and maybe giving him and OL and weapons with which to work? Seriously? It's absurd. If Jones shows any improvement, we'll basically end up with a QB who throws for 4000 yards and 30 TDs in his second season. And if he learns to just hold on to the football, we won't have the TO machine that many of us are worried about right now.
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In comment 14755650 MetsAreBack said:
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We would be playing this weekend but whatever.
Lmao no we wouldnt.
Lamar isn't playing this weekend either, because he led his team to the best record in the league and has a bye. But even today I've read people saying we're better off with Jones.
Lamar wouldn't be Lamar with Shurmur. Or any conventional coach. He's a great QB but he's in a system that maximizes his strengths.
Yeah, because that was my point. Honestly, an embarrassing response on your end. So this rule that rookie QBs should be judged on wins applies to only some players but not others?
No, he isn't. But I don't think Burrow is, either. In any event, Jones is a guy who has demonstrated an ability to make all the throws. People hated Eli because he wasn't his brother. But he knew how to win games when it mattered most. Jones deserves the chance to show that, even though it appears people hate him because he isn't Mahomes.
If you're expecting 70 yard bombs while moving backwards from Jones, he's not your guy. Mahomes makes throws I've never seen anyone else make - ever.
Jones' issue this year was fumbling. Not so much his decision making, though he has to go through progressions faster (which comes with age), but fumbling. That is a correctable issue. That no one wants to give him a chance to show he can develop from Year 1 to Year 2 is startling. You think Burrow is going to walk into the NFL and just dominate from the jump? Stop.
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Yeah, because that was my point. Honestly, an embarrassing response on your end. So this rule that rookie QBs should be judged on wins applies to only some players but not others?
There's no rule. Just use your eyes, and be sure to take off the blue glasses first.
The people saying Jones has a great first year can only point to one thing: the TD pass total. There isn't any other thing you can point to:
- Was he careful with the ball? No.
- Did he have good pocket awareness? No.
- Did he achieve a high YPA? No.
- Was his mobility a big factor in the offense? No.
- Did the offense score a lot of points with him at QB? No.
- Did he throw the ball well in the rain in December? No.
- Did the team won a lot of games with him at quarterback? No.
These are all facts. Does it mean Jones sucks? Of course not. But it also doesn't mean he's a lock franchise QB.
Can we just take the blue glasses off for once?
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In comment 14755749 Go Terps said:
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Yeah, because that was my point. Honestly, an embarrassing response on your end. So this rule that rookie QBs should be judged on wins applies to only some players but not others?
There's no rule. Just use your eyes, and be sure to take off the blue glasses first.
The people saying Jones has a great first year can only point to one thing: the TD pass total. There isn't any other thing you can point to:
- Was he careful with the ball? No.
- Did he have good pocket awareness? No.
- Did he achieve a high YPA? No.
- Was his mobility a big factor in the offense? No.
- Did the offense score a lot of points with him at QB? No.
- Did he throw the ball well in the rain in December? No.
- Did the team won a lot of games with him at quarterback? No.
These are all facts. Does it mean Jones sucks? Of course not. But it also doesn't mean he's a lock franchise QB.
Can we just take the blue glasses off for once?
I'm specifically referring to his win/loss record as a barometer on a God awful team, but ok.
I think I just laid them out. Whether you want to operate in a fantasy or the real world is your choice.
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In comment 14755756 BestFeature said:
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In comment 14755749 Go Terps said:
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Yeah, because that was my point. Honestly, an embarrassing response on your end. So this rule that rookie QBs should be judged on wins applies to only some players but not others?
There's no rule. Just use your eyes, and be sure to take off the blue glasses first.
The people saying Jones has a great first year can only point to one thing: the TD pass total. There isn't any other thing you can point to:
- Was he careful with the ball? No.
- Did he have good pocket awareness? No.
- Did he achieve a high YPA? No.
- Was his mobility a big factor in the offense? No.
- Did the offense score a lot of points with him at QB? No.
- Did he throw the ball well in the rain in December? No.
- Did the team won a lot of games with him at quarterback? No.
These are all facts. Does it mean Jones sucks? Of course not. But it also doesn't mean he's a lock franchise QB.
Can we just take the blue glasses off for once?
I'm specifically referring to his win/loss record as a barometer on a God awful team, but ok.
It's not "blue glasses". Eli Manning - a HOFer in my eyes - threw for 21 TDs in 16 games last year. In four games this year, he was 1-3 with a marginally higher YPA, only because he averaged over 10 YPA against the pitiful Dolphins. Otherwise his numbers were pretty much worse than Jones's across the board.
Last year he was 5-11. Our two or three longest passes were thrown by people not named Eli Manning last year. In 2017, he was 3-12 with a 6.1 YPA.
You can't ignore what Jones did this season. Sure, some pretty good pass Ds in NE, Chicago, and GB lowered those numbers. Yes, his numbers against Detroit, TB, Washington, and the Jets raised them. But he was a rookie.
Most people here are not crowning him. They are saying he has shown real potential. How can you credibly contend that he hasn't shown significant potential? He showed me everything I needed to see from my rookie QB, and it was more than enough for me to believe that he could be our franchise QB. That doesn't mean it will end up that way. But there is no planet on which I would deal him and pick a QB in the 2021 Draft. Or hope that Lawrence is available for us.
- Jones is better than Lamar Jackson
- Jones is the franchise QB for the next 10-15 years
Both of those statements are insane.
My position on Jones is simple: based on year 1 do I see him as a player worth investing 15% of our salary cap? Definitely not. But it's only been one year. The last two MVPs have been second year QBs. If Jones comes out in 2020 and performs as an elite quarterback you'll see me someone another tune.
- Jones is better than Lamar Jackson
- Jones is the franchise QB for the next 10-15 years
Both of those statements are insane.
My position on Jones is simple: based on year 1 do I see him as a player worth investing 15% of our salary cap? Definitely not. But it's only been one year. The last two MVPs have been second year QBs. If Jones comes out in 2020 and performs as an elite quarterback you'll see me someone another tune.
What would you have said about Lamar after last season? Something tells me it would have been totally different, especially after that PO game where the Chargers destroyed them.
Simply put, if the Giants can build an actual team - and scheme - around Jones, I expect him to succeed. That is what the Ravens did with Lamar. By no means am I suggesting any QB could have done what Lamar did, but they built that team specifically for him, and he just had a season for the ages. Jones obviously is not going out and running for 1000 yards. It just all came together for Lamar this year. It happens. I remain skeptical he can keep this up for an extended period of time. Cam Newton had one of those years, but it was a clear outlier.
People are making opinions that they have seen enough to know Jones is the franchise QB of the Giants going forward. You are not convinced yet, and that is fine. But the suggestion of trading him and hoping to land a QB in the 2021 Draft is absurd. There is a difference between crowning him and saying you want to get rid of him. Jones has, without a doubt, shown that he has franchise QB potential. Now the question is whether he can put it all together. But I've never seen a rookie not have things to work on. Peyton threw 28 INTs. Luck threw 18. Jackson couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with his passes last year and fumbled a shit ton. They made corrections. It worked.
Now it is up to Jones to improve in the areas he needs to - specifically avoiding fumbles.
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you've blessed us with "Jones isn't Rodgers" and "Jones ain't Peyton Manning" tonight...got any other gems for us?
I think I just laid them out. Whether you want to operate in a fantasy or the real world is your choice.
Oh - and there is a happy medium between finding the next Peyton Manning or Aaron Rodgers and getting a franchise QB. Peyton Mannings and Aaron Rodgers don't just come out of nowhere.
Well, in Terps defense, and not that he needs it, but we were tossing around Jones last February and Terps predicted the Giants would take him. And that he mostly liked what he saw...
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I've seen people make the following statements:
- Jones is better than Lamar Jackson
- Jones is the franchise QB for the next 10-15 years
Both of those statements are insane.
My position on Jones is simple: based on year 1 do I see him as a player worth investing 15% of our salary cap? Definitely not. But it's only been one year. The last two MVPs have been second year QBs. If Jones comes out in 2020 and performs as an elite quarterback you'll see me someone another tune.
What would you have said about Lamar after last season? Something tells me it would have been totally different, especially after that PO game where the Chargers destroyed them.
Simply put, if the Giants can build an actual team - and scheme - around Jones, I expect him to succeed. That is what the Ravens did with Lamar. By no means am I suggesting any QB could have done what Lamar did, but they built that team specifically for him, and he just had a season for the ages. Jones obviously is not going out and running for 1000 yards. It just all came together for Lamar this year. It happens. I remain skeptical he can keep this up for an extended period of time. Cam Newton had one of those years, but it was a clear outlier.
People are making opinions that they have seen enough to know Jones is the franchise QB of the Giants going forward. You are not convinced yet, and that is fine. But the suggestion of trading him and hoping to land a QB in the 2021 Draft is absurd. There is a difference between crowning him and saying you want to get rid of him. Jones has, without a doubt, shown that he has franchise QB potential. Now the question is whether he can put it all together. But I've never seen a rookie not have things to work on. Peyton threw 28 INTs. Luck threw 18. Jackson couldn't hit the broad side of a barn with his passes last year and fumbled a shit ton. They made corrections. It worked.
Now it is up to Jones to improve in the areas he needs to - specifically avoiding fumbles.
Finally, what exactly are you expecting from Jones next year? An MVP season because Mahomes and Lamar did it? That is a pretty high water mark to set, and if anything short of that will be deemed a disappointment, well, prepare to be disappointed. Because I don't foresee Jones accounting for 5000 Total Yards and 50 TDs in year 2. That Mahomes and Lamar did that is an abnormality, not a regular occurrence, and you can't judge Jones by comparing him to them.
Even those guys wouldn't be those guys without their systems and surrounding talent. If they were on the Giants they'd probably still be good, but not even close to what they are now. That especially goes for Lamar, who needs a particular type of system to succeed. You cannot just tell Lamar to be a drop back passer and dissect teams from the pocket. That's just not who he is.
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you've blessed us with "Jones isn't Rodgers" and "Jones ain't Peyton Manning" tonight...got any other gems for us?
Well, in Terps defense, and not that he needs it, but we were tossing around Jones last February and Terps predicted the Giants would take him. And that he mostly liked what he saw...
He is down on the Giants - and he has every right to be. But just like he accusing everyone of wearing blue colored glasses, he should make an objective observation on Jones. The fact that Jones made mistakes his rookie year - like almost every other rookie QB that has played in the NFL - isn't grounds for calling him a bust. Shit QBs don't accumulate the numbers he did in his rookie season. And to think that he did so with a bad system and injured weapons and bad OL is something else. It's pretty amazing.
We could trade Jones, pick whatever QB we wanted, maybe even get Lawrence in 2021. And after Lawrence's rookie season, we'd be asking if he is the answer. There is almost no scenario under which I could see this fanbase just accepting a QB as the future of the franchise.
Lamar Jackson just put up an amazing second season. Mahomes put up one too (he only started one game as a rookie). I wonder what people here would have said after Jackson flopped in the POs last year. Or if they'd have suggested trading Mahomes because he only started one game in 2017 and hitting the reset button for QBs in the 2018 Draft - which was highly, highly touted at one time.
We ran Shurmur out of town because he was an awful coach. Many of us wanted DSG gone because he was awful at assembling a competitive roster - namely, an OL to block. And now people want to trade Jones before getting him to his second season and maybe giving him and OL and weapons with which to work? Seriously? It's absurd. If Jones shows any improvement, we'll basically end up with a QB who throws for 4000 yards and 30 TDs in his second season. And if he learns to just hold on to the football, we won't have the TO machine that many of us are worried about right now.
If a team, say Miami, offered a first and two twos for Jones you wouldn't take it?
He is down on the Giants - and he has every right to be. But just like he accusing everyone of wearing blue colored glasses, he should make an objective observation on Jones. The fact that Jones made mistakes his rookie year - like almost every other rookie QB that has played in the NFL - isn't grounds for calling him a bust. Shit QBs don't accumulate the numbers he did in his rookie season. And to think that he did so with a bad system and injured weapons and bad OL is something else. It's pretty amazing.
Jones is a mixed bag thus far. If you really like his play, there are a number of things to chose from to make your case. If you are still skeptical, same thing. So there really is no objectivity at this point. And it seems silly to try to claim one position is more objective than the other...
In my eyes, 2020 is a critical year for Jones. He needs to tighten his game and show an upward trajectory. If not, another possible solution needs to be on the table for consideration...
Now, if you ask me what I expect for next year...I expect more of the same. And if that happens, you're going to hear me say we should look at moving him.
If the Giants are 3rd, at least 1 of the teams in front of the Giants have a QB and are willing to trade.
How good a season would the Jones need to have to eschew picking or trading up to get Lawrence? Fields?
I am not advocating trading Jones at this point, and I am hopeful he can become a Franchise QB. However, I am not convinces yet that he will be. Cautiously optimistic.
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In comment 14755650 MetsAreBack said:
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We would be playing this weekend but whatever.
Lmao no we wouldnt.
Lamar isn't playing this weekend either, because he led his team to the best record in the league and has a bye. But even today I've read people saying we're better off with Jones.
You're kidding, right?
Sheesh, the last person I saw to make that claim was allstarjim, and he's a huge DG believer. And that was weeks ago, prior to Jackson cementing the MVP.
A healthy Tua wouldn't be available to the Giants with the 4th pick. An injured Tua is too great a risk with the 4th pick.
As for Daniel Jones, I often wonder what it is that people who're majorly skeptical about him wanted or needed to see from him as a rookie? It seems to me that some people wanted to see a level of play that's not plausible for a rookie QB or certainly a rookie on this team. 2 active QBs threw more TDs in their rookie season than Daniel Jones... Baker Mayfield, who holds the rookie TD record, and Russell Wilson, who started 4 more games as a rookie. Jones did that behind a horrendous o-line, with a terrible coach, a star RB who wasn't healthy or effective for two-thirds of the season, and without any stars at receiver or tight end. Sure, he has areas that he needs to improve on. All rookie QBs have areas they need to improve upon.
If the Giants have the worst record next year, then sure, punt Jones for Trevor Lawrence. But Joe Burrow? GTFOH.
Wow...this is out "Paul Dottinoing" Paul Dottino.
Tua himself sounded skeptical that he will ever regain the athleticism he had prior to the injury. And you have to wonder how a guy like that rebounds mentally. Is he scared to run in the future, for example?
A couple other knocks against Tua: last year, in the biggest games, he struggled (against LSU, Georgia, and Clemson). This year, when Matt Jones replaced him, Jones's numbers nearly mirrored those of Tua's. Oh, and Tua's QBR dropped nearly 50 points when Jeudy was off the field, as opposed to when he was on it. There is a decent chance Tua is a product of his surrounding talent.
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in 2019, the best course of action was to just let Eli play out his contract and use that last #6 pick for something else instead of DJ. But alas we didn't.
Thank the lord we got DJ plenty of experience in 2019 so 2020 is more of a development year for him versus a shell-shock year. If he takes the next steps on pocket awareness, a little more mobility and some arm strength, then we should be estatic.
I hope DJ is really the goods but I would have been more apt to wait yet another year (until 2020) to pick the QB.
Restructuring the Giants by DG is an odd process indeed...
I really don't know how many times I can say this, but Jones had a fantastic season for a rookie. I don't care if he fumbled 11 times. I know it is something he needs to fix, but ignoring the numbers he put up is crazy talk.
In 12 games as a starter, Jones was tied for 13th in TD passes (with a guy named Tom Brady). For reference, in the same offense - but with better weapons last season - Eli threw for 21 TDs in 16 games. Do people understand this.
On his show this morning, Boomer raved about Jones and believes that he and Barkley make this job more attractive than any other available one on the market. He believes Jones is a true star in the making. I would say Boomer knows a little about QBing in the NFL.
I'm not saying to crown him yet. But you also cannot ignore his potential.
I don't care how many times you said it...should we monitor your posts?
I think DJ had very good season as well and I give him plenty of kudos in my post. I wouldn't have followed the same process the Giants did...pay Eli, draft Jones, etc. But as I mentioned, it was critical for DJ to get plenty of game experience so the team can be educated prior to yet another draft with some good QB choices.
I would try to trade Barkley for a HUGE haul.
I'd draft as well as I could without thinking of winning this year, just get the best players possible.
I'd look for a QB in the next draft because I dont see it outside of Burrow.
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thread just shows you how much can change in one year.
Last year at this time, a bunch of people said we should wait until 2020 to draft the QB.
Once we paid Eli's bonus that would have been the right course of action.
yep
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We could trade Jones, pick whatever QB we wanted, maybe even get Lawrence in 2021. And after Lawrence's rookie season, we'd be asking if he is the answer. There is almost no scenario under which I could see this fanbase just accepting a QB as the future of the franchise.
Lamar Jackson just put up an amazing second season. Mahomes put up one too (he only started one game as a rookie). I wonder what people here would have said after Jackson flopped in the POs last year. Or if they'd have suggested trading Mahomes because he only started one game in 2017 and hitting the reset button for QBs in the 2018 Draft - which was highly, highly touted at one time.
We ran Shurmur out of town because he was an awful coach. Many of us wanted DSG gone because he was awful at assembling a competitive roster - namely, an OL to block. And now people want to trade Jones before getting him to his second season and maybe giving him and OL and weapons with which to work? Seriously? It's absurd. If Jones shows any improvement, we'll basically end up with a QB who throws for 4000 yards and 30 TDs in his second season. And if he learns to just hold on to the football, we won't have the TO machine that many of us are worried about right now.
If a team, say Miami, offered a first and two twos for Jones you wouldn't take it?
oh yes...
You’re kidding right? We’d be playing today?
Now, if you ask me what I expect for next year...I expect more of the same. And if that happens, you're going to hear me say we should look at moving him.
This is where this conversation is breaking down. You are saying he probably won’t improve which, if true, obviously means that you’re right, he isn’t a franchise star QB.
Others are looking at history where an large fraction of touted rookie QBs do improve, and projecting out improvement.
So it’s coming down to a tautology. If he doesn’t get better, he won’t be better. And the response is “Aha! But if he does get better, he’ll be better!”
Since we’re playing this game of sounding insane, Jones isn’t Peyton Manning? Yet their rookie seasons were strikingly similar. Jones actually had a better winning % and threw less INTs. A lot less.
Platitudes are so much fun to obliterate.
More reasonable to believe that he will progress on certain areas of his game and will still struggle with others.
As mentioned here plenty, QB Development is not typically linear.
16 Games
56.7 completion %
26 tds
28 ints
YPA = 6.5
233 YPG
Colts scored 310 pts and allowed 444
3-13 record (under Jim mora who was an accomplished If flawed HC)
Daniel Jones rookie numbers:
13 games
61.9 competition %
24 TDS
12 INTS
YPA = 6.6
232 YPG
Nyg scored 341 pts and allowed 451 pts
3-9 record under Shurmur. Shurmur will never accomplish anything as an NFL HC, I think we all agree there.
Are we sure jones isn’t Peyton Manning? How do you know? He likely isn’t, but I’d love to know how someone can be so sure, so soon.
In any case, this was just a comparison. Pay it no mind unless you insist on forming a concrete declaration on a rookie qb playing within the confines of a garage system and team.
By the way, since this is the Lamar jackson fan club thread, jackson didn’t look THIS good in his rookie season and even harbaugh himself admitted it was tough to extract every ounce of jackson’s talents in year one because he didn’t have enough time to build the playbook to cater to jackson’s strengths and weaknesses. The offense was still built around flacco.
In other words, it’s his rookie year. Might want to wait a little longer.
16 Games
56.7 completion %
26 tds
28 ints
YPA = 6.5
233 YPG
Colts scored 310 pts and allowed 444
3-13 record (under Jim mora who was an accomplished If flawed HC)
Daniel Jones rookie numbers:
13 games
61.9 competition %
24 TDS
12 INTS
YPA = 6.6
232 YPG
Nyg scored 341 pts and allowed 451 pts
3-9 record under Shurmur. Shurmur will never accomplish anything as an NFL HC, I think we all agree there.
Are we sure jones isn’t Peyton Manning? How do you know? He likely isn’t, but I’d love to know how someone can be so sure, so soon.
In any case, this was just a comparison. Pay it no mind unless you insist on forming a concrete declaration on a rookie qb playing within the confines of a garage system and team.
I know you are not suggesting this - but no one here is expecting Jones to become Peyton Manning. Doing so would be patently insane. But to just dismiss what Jones did as average for a rookie is stupid talk. And to discuss trading him is even dumber.
Peyton was often railed on for not having the strongest of arms. In fact, it is what nearly got Ryan Leaf - who had a cannon - drafted higher. I'm not saying Jones can sling it like Peyton, but you don't need a Brett Favre arm to succeed in the NFL. Jones can make all the throws, and I think he proved that this year. That is, by far, the most important thing to take away from Jones's season.
If you see the same traits in Jones that we saw even very early in Peyton Manning, then you are seeing something I don't.
If you see the same traits in Jones that we saw even very early in Peyton Manning, then you are seeing something I don't.
Stating that a rookie qb is a finished product is even more ludicrous than comparing Beckham’s career to any HOF wr, including rice. Rice kept getting better while Beckham appears to be losing steam, but his first five years or so were better than rice’s first five.
I’m just certain that Jerry Rice would be THE Jerry rice no matter who drafts him.
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Reminds me of people comparing Beckham to Jerry Rice. That turned out to be completely misled.
If you see the same traits in Jones that we saw even very early in Peyton Manning, then you are seeing something I don't.
Stating that a rookie qb is a finished product is even more ludicrous than comparing Beckham’s career to any HOF wr, including rice. Rice kept getting better while Beckham appears to be losing steam, but his first five years or so were better than rice’s first five.
I’m just certain that Jerry Rice would be THE Jerry rice no matter who drafts him.
Let me stress I am in no way trying to imply that jones has Peyton Manning’s future ahead of him. Peyton will never be copied. He was an amazing QB. Maybe the Most consistent week to week Qb to ever play. But jones does have some of his qualities and more important, was a rookie last season. We just don’t know where jones ends up. Maybe he’s the same flawed up and down player? Certainly possible but it’s probably more likely that jones refines his game to some degree and becomes a better player, again, at least to some degree. If you ask me, only someone who wasn’t watching jones every week this year, didn’t observe his demeanor on and off the field, and didn’t read the articles quoting his former and current coaches would question that jones will improve. He’s going to. I’ll bet you on that.
Giants are due. They just need a professional HC. Even if they get another Jim Fassel type, they will catch some good seasons again. I firmly believe that. Doesn’t mean they can’t fuck this up, yet again.