I found it interesting that he didn't say anything after McCarthy was hired by Dallas, or Rhule by Carolina, or Rivera by the Skins for that matter. Why did this hire set him off?
Not to sound like a smart ass, but I'm going to sound like a smart ass.
Does being bigoted in a "nuanced" way or bigoted in a "subconscious" way allow you to justify your support for such bigotry?
Let's cut the BS. You either feel the Giants are a bigoted operation or you don't. And you are dancing around it with semantics.
Eric, I disagree I’m dancing around. I’m typing on my phone with many distracting teenage kids still awake so pardon my brief response, but I’ll just say this: I’m a white guy married to an African-American woman who works on progressive issues, many of which touch on race relations. Having been immersed in these issues over the years, I have learned a lot. I used to think of things in the (unintended pun) black and white terms you describe above — but I have a different perspective these days. I don’t you think need to make a determination that a person is an intentional bigot or an organization is institutionally racist in looking critically at racial hiring disparities (which are consistently skewed heavily white in numerous professions, not just the NFL). I think race factors into many of our day to day decisions, including hiring decisions. Out of the 92 NFL, NBA, MLB teams, 91 are majority owned by white people (Jordan is the 1 black owner). So when I see the ratio of black coaches to black players within this 91 of 92 framework, it triggers a need to understand how these hiring disparities came to pass. You evidently disagree, but I’m not trying to be inflammatory, it’s just my honest opinion.
I understand your position. You want equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.
The only solution to the former is to FORCE racial quotas. You must support Roger Goodell dictating to John Mara and Steve Tisch that they hire a black head coach. (I assume you are not bothered by under-representation of other races).
But you really didn't answer my question about whether or not you think the Giants are institutionally a bigoted organization?
Very discouraging response. Doesn't seem you gave anything I said any serious thought.
What other races would be under-represented among NFL coaches? Asians, Martians? Football is an American sport played almost exclusively by white and black Americans.
I never used the word bigoted. You did. I tried to show this isn't a simple question and reduce a sense of guilt about it. Sorry if that didn't come through.
You are being willfully naive to claim their is no racism in the NFL, including the Giants. I'm not proposing quotas or equal outcomes. This is a straw dog. There isn't any specific appropriate number of black NFL coaches, but there damn sure should be more than 2.
In comment 14766348 christian said:
[quote] The New York Giants guided and advanced Jerry Reese from scout to GM. Ronnie Barnes is at the top of his profession.
The Giants coaching staff had 11 people of color on it last year.
That's pretty cagey racism. [/quote
B-b-b-ut look at all of the white coaches around the league! LOL.
as too the rooney that is asked and answered - but not be you. so i'll ask you again, are more black candidates being hired? since you're clearly unwilling to answer i'll do it for you. in 2003 there were 3 black head coaches, and in 2020 there are three black head coaches. smith's point was the rooney rule wasn't working and the numbers 100% support that position.
It only looks like the numbers 100% support that position when you only use the start point and end point and ignore what happened in between.
RE: RE: The irony is spectacularly rich with MM's posts. Â
as i'm sure yours would not be if you had the guts to express yourself
MM I have a serious question for you: do you know the data of race demographics for ALL the coaches in the NFL and if/how that demographic may have changed since the institution of the Rooney Rule?
I think it's a relevant data set, because if you want to make a point about institutional racism, I think you need to examine a larger population than the pool of NFL Head coaches, since there are only 32 of them in total.
It's simply not a big enough sample size from which to draw inferences about "institutional racism."
I'd be far more inclined to give credence to your argument about institutional racism in the NFL if the % of all minority, or even all black, coaches hasn't increased over the 20 year span of the Rooney Rule.
Who played BBall at Winston-Salem State University and wrote articles demanding that his Hall of Fame coach Clarence Gaines should retire? What PoS does that to his coach?
Never played football, never coached, never made it to the pro level in anything. The only person who he outranks with his resume is Adam Schein, who never played a sport ever except having footballs thrown at his head in HS while walking to his Dart club meeting
Just commenting on the pundits in that clip talking about OBJ and clearly implying that trading him was because of racism.
The most similar example to OBJ in terms of great physical atrributes and great production but off the field "culture" issues would be IMO Jeremy Shockey. Shockey gets hurt in 2007, Giants win super bowl, and trade him before the start of the 2008 season. I think most Giants fans would say that that was the right move because of how Shockey harmed the culture of the team and many argue that perhaps the Giants would not have won the Super Bowl had he not gotten hurt because he was keeping Eli from being the leader of the team. So I'm not sure how when OBJ was treated the same way, its racism.
For the record, 1) I was/am a big OBJ fan and was not happy with the trade at the time although I also think OBJ is not the player he used to be. 2) I think the Rooney rule is good for the league.
as too the rooney that is asked and answered - but not be you. so i'll ask you again, are more black candidates being hired? since you're clearly unwilling to answer i'll do it for you. in 2003 there were 3 black head coaches, and in 2020 there are three black head coaches. smith's point was the rooney rule wasn't working and the numbers 100% support that position.
It only looks like the numbers 100% support that position when you only use the start point and end point and ignore what happened in between.
ok, show me your numbers and how they show they numbers i found are bad.
I'm surprised that a guy who is giving pointers about how to look at race would type this:
Quote:
Football is an American sport played almost exclusively by white and black Americans.
Umm. No it isn't. And the timing is odd seeing that Ron Rivera just took a job with the Redskins. Heck, as much as people hate him, we have our very own Jon Halapio and there are many players of Pacific Island origin in the league.
At the start of the 2014 season, NFL surveys revealed that the league was approximately 68% African-American and about 28% white, with the remaining 4% comprising Asian/Pacific Islander, non-white Hispanics, and those preferring a Mixed Race category.
I'm surprised that a guy who is giving pointers about how to look at race would type this:
Quote:
Football is an American sport played almost exclusively by white and black Americans.
Umm. No it isn't. And the timing is odd seeing that Ron Rivera just took a job with the Redskins. Heck, as much as people hate him, we have our very own Jon Halapio and there are many players of Pacific Island origin in the league.
of how loosely public figures are throwing around racism accusations with no repercussions. I couldn't be more on board with equality, fairness, etc. but what SAS is doing is pure negligence.
He didn't even mention that we interviewed two minority candidates along with a white coordinator and white former HC, passing on all of them. He also didn't mention that a 37 year old minority coach (who also was never even a coordinator) in Brian Flores just got a HC job for having arguably less experience than Joe Judge, so there's already precedence that directly counter his "this would never happen if he was black" rhetoric....uhh yeah, it just did.
A simple fact check should be the bare minimum requirement before your loosely y call people racists.
of how loosely public figures are throwing around racism accusations with no repercussions. I couldn't be more on board with equality, fairness, etc. but what SAS is doing is pure negligence.
He didn't even mention that we interviewed two minority candidates along with a white coordinator and white former HC, passing on all of them. He also didn't mention that a 37 year old minority coach (who also was never even a coordinator) in Brian Flores just got a HC job for having arguably less experience than Joe Judge, so there's already precedence that directly counter his "this would never happen if he was black" rhetoric....uhh yeah, it just did.
A simple fact check should be the bare minimum requirement before your loosely y call people racists.
🎯
RE: RE: RE: The irony is spectacularly rich with MM's posts. Â
as i'm sure yours would not be if you had the guts to express yourself
MM I have a serious question for you: do you know the data of race demographics for ALL the coaches in the NFL and if/how that demographic may have changed since the institution of the Rooney Rule?
I think it's a relevant data set, because if you want to make a point about institutional racism, I think you need to examine a larger population than the pool of NFL Head coaches, since there are only 32 of them in total.
It's simply not a big enough sample size from which to draw inferences about "institutional racism."
I'd be far more inclined to give credence to your argument about institutional racism in the NFL if the % of all minority, or even all black, coaches hasn't increased over the 20 year span of the Rooney Rule.
Hey BLB - i don't have those numbers but not quite sure they're relevant in the way you're proposing given the rooney rule applies to the head coach position only. the rooney rule has no influence over other positions.
in fact, i think there is probably stronger arguments in the opposite of what i think you're saying, since head coaches choose their own staffs, and based on pure availability and number of positions necessary to staff the numbers logically fall closer to actual demographics.
to be quite candid, i'm in no way shape or form some structural discrimination or implicit cognitive bias activist. that shit is a fact of life and is not just limited to race and nfl coaches - those and many more constructs are part of natural law. people who actually advocate for racial issues would be taken aback by my full unfiltered views - they usually find i disagree with them on certain issues they find core to their tenets and positions.
in re to black coaches and their representation i'm afraid i actually align much more closely with jack nickolson's quote in the movie the departed. i won't say the full quote bc it does include a slur, but to boil it down, he says "sure, there are racists out there, but that's something everyone has had to deal with, including the irish, and the way to get around it isn't to bitch about it, it's to figure out how to take it yourself. no one is going to give it you."
but i just as seriously disagree with and get annoyed with people who are so quick to yell about about bs reverse racism or inaccurately characterize complaints that involve race and distort them to fit their poli-eco-soci-world views (or whatever is the right way to state that). i find that sort of misrepresentation of arguments to fit their narrative just as, if not more, antithetical to good faith discussion and progress. and i hate bad faith arguments. no one said the giants were racist and i broke out that logic step by step in my post to eric. not one single person has stepped forward to counter that logic tree. and it's right there, each step listed and fully exposed. i'm in favor of progress, as i think everyone would be if this country's politics had not made that a dirty word. but now i'm tripping the third rail of this site which we've actually been riding this entire thread.
anyway, BLB, you said you were asking a serious question and so i wanted to give you a serious response. too many offsite meetings today so i won't have time for serious responses, and i have dinner tonight with a company that would bring those following this thread to their knees if they found out who it was. but if i'm not too toasty after drinking my martinis and eating my mutton chop at keens tonight i'll see what's going on.
y'all fall into this trap everyone time this subject comes up. it's like you purposely don't understand the point being made
Sure we do.
He's arguing that the Giants are a racist organization.
Do you think they are?
I saw the bit and this is absolutely NOT what he said. He argued that there are plenty of white coaches who come out of nowhere and surprise you and do well. He specifically stated that he respects these coaches and doesn’t want to take anything away from them. He asked the question, why don’t we see black coaches getting plucked from obscurity and given the chance to surprise you. He has a point.
My organization has spent the better part of 2 years on racial equity. Granted, I don't think the curriculum has lent itself to tackling this well or professionally. But, one thing that has come up more than once is this idea that racism isn't binary. However, the reality is that with this topic the application is basically binary in the general public. For example, if somebody says something offensive related to race, they are automatically labelled racist and that is their only descriptor.
RE: RE: RE: how many black coaches have jumped from stc to hc? Â
y'all fall into this trap everyone time this subject comes up. it's like you purposely don't understand the point being made
Sure we do.
He's arguing that the Giants are a racist organization.
Do you think they are?
I saw the bit and this is absolutely NOT what he said. He argued that there are plenty of white coaches who come out of nowhere and surprise you and do well. He specifically stated that he respects these coaches and doesn’t want to take anything away from them. He asked the question, why don’t we see black coaches getting plucked from obscurity and given the chance to surprise you. He has a point.
Obviously is a more seldom occurrence but I posted earlier about Brian Flores. I bet SAS doesn't even know who Brian Flores is or that he has arguable less experience than Joe Judge and got hired last year as Miami's HC.
I don't think SAS is a bad guy, but I think his schtick is pretty dangerous when it comes to serious issues like this. Not fact checking and screaming about bad call in an NFL game is one thing, what's he's doing here is a completely different ball game - highly unprofessional and really bad journalism.
is that any decision resulting in a negative outcome based on race is a racist decision, policy, etc. Using that guideline, hiring Judge was a racist decision. I don't subscribe to this theory. Within my organization especially, this theory is also ignored when the outcome negatively impacts a race/ethnicity other than black or brown individuals. This is because the other dominant theory is that only white people can be racist because they are in power.
The problem I have is it almost condemns anyone who doesn't agree 100%. I think most intelligent and educated people in this country can recognize institutional racism is a huge problem. Even with great strides made during the Civil Rights movement to present, there are still social/institutional barriers that exist and are difficult to eliminate. But, since we are being asked to completely isolate race and this is approached almost as a totally black & white (literally and figuratively) topic, it's basically if you're not with us, you are against us.
All that said, I have a couple of comments specifically about Smith Â
First, it's interesting that out of all the teams, 2 years in a row the Giants have been singled out as racist for their personnel decisions. Last year, it was drafting Jones over Haskins. This year it was hiring Judge.
Second, Smith may or may not be true. It is not something we will ever really prove or confirm. However, he is treading a very thin line by throwing out accusations based on nothing but his opinion and little substance behind it. This is far more irresponsible and dangerous, in my opinion, than the other opinion spewed as fact surrounding the Giants coaching decision.
He already knows the answer to his question. And we've heard him say it for years. America, the NFL, and the New York Giants are inherently evil and racist. Equality of opportunity isn't enough. Equality of outcome must be mandated because the evil powers that be will never fix the problem. They can't because people like the Irish John Mara and Jewish Steve Tisch are bigots.
I had no idea the Rooney Rule applied only to HCs and "senior FO positions."
From Wikipedia:
The Rooney Rule is a National Football League policy that requires league teams to interview ethnic-minority candidates for head coaching and senior football operation jobs.
Back to my larger point, not directed at you but at Stephen A's points:
If the overall pool of coaches at all positions in the NFL has a more representative demographic of minorities, in any kind of fair world that in itself would eventually lead to more minorities in HC and Senior FO positions, organically, which is IMO preferable.
Looking forward to your next post on the issue when you have time.
thi is a guy who posted an instagram after NBA offseason in which he cried real bitch tears beacuse of the Knicks inaction in free agency. a grown ass man crying because a team didn't pick up enough good players. why does anyone listen to this guy?
ok, show me your numbers and how they show they numbers i found are bad.
The numbers you used aren't bad - I'm just pointing out that they give an incomplete and misleading picture when used alone. Without taking the time to research the numbers too much, simply adding in a few years in between changes the picture significantly.
2003 - 3 black head coaches
2007 - 6
2011 - 8
2015 - 5
2018 - 8
current - 3
Now, you could still use these numbers to argue that the RR isn't working (though easier to argue that it might be working but not well enough). But they certainly don't "100% support the position" that the RR isn't working or that there are not more black candidates being hired.
Seems like black coaches get interviews for jobs they aren’t going to get. 68% of the players are black but only 2 of 32 coaches are black. And it’s not like it hasn’t been that way for years so you can’t say there hasn’t been time for black coaches to work their way up.
I don’t have a clue whether there was a better or equal black candidate than Judge, but I do know that the Giant paying fan base is very heavily older and white. If you don’t think that plays a factor in decision making you are burying your head in the sand.
Yes Smith is an over the top sports entertainer, but there is nothing wrong with continuing to point out this disparity. And it’s nice the Giants had a black GM, but the GM doesn’t stand on the sidelines as a primary face of the franchise.
So you're saying an "Older and white" fan base don't want a black coach?
I dont know how you come to that conclusion to be honest.
Shannon Sharpe now suggesting a higher cap for teams with minority HC Â
68% of the players are black but only 2 of 32 coaches are black.
I hate it when people throw out unrelated statistics. What does the % of players who are minorities have to do with the % of coaches who are? Are you suggesting that just because someone can return punts or run a route they can now coach? The skill sets are vastly different.
Football fans care about one thing only. Winning. Whoever gives the team the best chance at doing that should be hired. Whether that's for WR, RB, OT, CB, OC, DC, HC, or GM. Period.
The Giants coaching staff had 11 people of color on it last year.
That's pretty cagey racism.
I don't take sports too seriously.
Fair point. What would you have me do though? Go picket Metlife?
Resistance is futile. And if I would resist it wouldn't be to get racism out of sports. I'd target something more substantive.
as i'm sure yours would not be if you had the guts to express yourself
Does being bigoted in a "nuanced" way or bigoted in a "subconscious" way allow you to justify your support for such bigotry?
Let's cut the BS. You either feel the Giants are a bigoted operation or you don't. And you are dancing around it with semantics.
Eric, I disagree I’m dancing around. I’m typing on my phone with many distracting teenage kids still awake so pardon my brief response, but I’ll just say this: I’m a white guy married to an African-American woman who works on progressive issues, many of which touch on race relations. Having been immersed in these issues over the years, I have learned a lot. I used to think of things in the (unintended pun) black and white terms you describe above — but I have a different perspective these days. I don’t you think need to make a determination that a person is an intentional bigot or an organization is institutionally racist in looking critically at racial hiring disparities (which are consistently skewed heavily white in numerous professions, not just the NFL). I think race factors into many of our day to day decisions, including hiring decisions. Out of the 92 NFL, NBA, MLB teams, 91 are majority owned by white people (Jordan is the 1 black owner). So when I see the ratio of black coaches to black players within this 91 of 92 framework, it triggers a need to understand how these hiring disparities came to pass. You evidently disagree, but I’m not trying to be inflammatory, it’s just my honest opinion.
The only solution to the former is to FORCE racial quotas. You must support Roger Goodell dictating to John Mara and Steve Tisch that they hire a black head coach. (I assume you are not bothered by under-representation of other races).
But you really didn't answer my question about whether or not you think the Giants are institutionally a bigoted organization?
Very discouraging response. Doesn't seem you gave anything I said any serious thought.
What other races would be under-represented among NFL coaches? Asians, Martians? Football is an American sport played almost exclusively by white and black Americans.
I never used the word bigoted. You did. I tried to show this isn't a simple question and reduce a sense of guilt about it. Sorry if that didn't come through.
You are being willfully naive to claim their is no racism in the NFL, including the Giants. I'm not proposing quotas or equal outcomes. This is a straw dog. There isn't any specific appropriate number of black NFL coaches, but there damn sure should be more than 2.
[quote] The New York Giants guided and advanced Jerry Reese from scout to GM. Ronnie Barnes is at the top of his profession.
The Giants coaching staff had 11 people of color on it last year.
That's pretty cagey racism. [/quote
B-b-b-ut look at all of the white coaches around the league! LOL.
as too the rooney that is asked and answered - but not be you. so i'll ask you again, are more black candidates being hired? since you're clearly unwilling to answer i'll do it for you. in 2003 there were 3 black head coaches, and in 2020 there are three black head coaches. smith's point was the rooney rule wasn't working and the numbers 100% support that position.
It only looks like the numbers 100% support that position when you only use the start point and end point and ignore what happened in between.
Quote:
*
as i'm sure yours would not be if you had the guts to express yourself
MM I have a serious question for you: do you know the data of race demographics for ALL the coaches in the NFL and if/how that demographic may have changed since the institution of the Rooney Rule?
I think it's a relevant data set, because if you want to make a point about institutional racism, I think you need to examine a larger population than the pool of NFL Head coaches, since there are only 32 of them in total.
It's simply not a big enough sample size from which to draw inferences about "institutional racism."
I'd be far more inclined to give credence to your argument about institutional racism in the NFL if the % of all minority, or even all black, coaches hasn't increased over the 20 year span of the Rooney Rule.
Never played football, never coached, never made it to the pro level in anything. The only person who he outranks with his resume is Adam Schein, who never played a sport ever except having footballs thrown at his head in HS while walking to his Dart club meeting
The most similar example to OBJ in terms of great physical atrributes and great production but off the field "culture" issues would be IMO Jeremy Shockey. Shockey gets hurt in 2007, Giants win super bowl, and trade him before the start of the 2008 season. I think most Giants fans would say that that was the right move because of how Shockey harmed the culture of the team and many argue that perhaps the Giants would not have won the Super Bowl had he not gotten hurt because he was keeping Eli from being the leader of the team. So I'm not sure how when OBJ was treated the same way, its racism.
For the record, 1) I was/am a big OBJ fan and was not happy with the trade at the time although I also think OBJ is not the player he used to be. 2) I think the Rooney rule is good for the league.
Well, there ARE more than two. So we're all good now?
;-)
Quote:
as too the rooney that is asked and answered - but not be you. so i'll ask you again, are more black candidates being hired? since you're clearly unwilling to answer i'll do it for you. in 2003 there were 3 black head coaches, and in 2020 there are three black head coaches. smith's point was the rooney rule wasn't working and the numbers 100% support that position.
It only looks like the numbers 100% support that position when you only use the start point and end point and ignore what happened in between.
ok, show me your numbers and how they show they numbers i found are bad.
Umm. No it isn't. And the timing is odd seeing that Ron Rivera just took a job with the Redskins. Heck, as much as people hate him, we have our very own Jon Halapio and there are many players of Pacific Island origin in the league.
Quote:
There isn't any specific appropriate number of black NFL coaches, but there damn sure should be more than 2.
Well, there ARE more than two. So we're all good now?
;-)
There are only 2 head coaches. Sorry I did not specify as I did in all my other comments.
Quote:
Football is an American sport played almost exclusively by white and black Americans.
Umm. No it isn't. And the timing is odd seeing that Ron Rivera just took a job with the Redskins. Heck, as much as people hate him, we have our very own Jon Halapio and there are many players of Pacific Island origin in the league.
Do you know what the word “almost” means?
Lol
Lol. Pedantic. So you really meant to say football is not exclusively played by White and Black people?
He didn't even mention that we interviewed two minority candidates along with a white coordinator and white former HC, passing on all of them. He also didn't mention that a 37 year old minority coach (who also was never even a coordinator) in Brian Flores just got a HC job for having arguably less experience than Joe Judge, so there's already precedence that directly counter his "this would never happen if he was black" rhetoric....uhh yeah, it just did.
A simple fact check should be the bare minimum requirement before your loosely y call people racists.
He didn't even mention that we interviewed two minority candidates along with a white coordinator and white former HC, passing on all of them. He also didn't mention that a 37 year old minority coach (who also was never even a coordinator) in Brian Flores just got a HC job for having arguably less experience than Joe Judge, so there's already precedence that directly counter his "this would never happen if he was black" rhetoric....uhh yeah, it just did.
A simple fact check should be the bare minimum requirement before your loosely y call people racists.
🎯
Quote:
In comment 14766306 Mad Mike said:
Quote:
*
as i'm sure yours would not be if you had the guts to express yourself
MM I have a serious question for you: do you know the data of race demographics for ALL the coaches in the NFL and if/how that demographic may have changed since the institution of the Rooney Rule?
I think it's a relevant data set, because if you want to make a point about institutional racism, I think you need to examine a larger population than the pool of NFL Head coaches, since there are only 32 of them in total.
It's simply not a big enough sample size from which to draw inferences about "institutional racism."
I'd be far more inclined to give credence to your argument about institutional racism in the NFL if the % of all minority, or even all black, coaches hasn't increased over the 20 year span of the Rooney Rule.
Hey BLB - i don't have those numbers but not quite sure they're relevant in the way you're proposing given the rooney rule applies to the head coach position only. the rooney rule has no influence over other positions.
in fact, i think there is probably stronger arguments in the opposite of what i think you're saying, since head coaches choose their own staffs, and based on pure availability and number of positions necessary to staff the numbers logically fall closer to actual demographics.
to be quite candid, i'm in no way shape or form some structural discrimination or implicit cognitive bias activist. that shit is a fact of life and is not just limited to race and nfl coaches - those and many more constructs are part of natural law. people who actually advocate for racial issues would be taken aback by my full unfiltered views - they usually find i disagree with them on certain issues they find core to their tenets and positions.
in re to black coaches and their representation i'm afraid i actually align much more closely with jack nickolson's quote in the movie the departed. i won't say the full quote bc it does include a slur, but to boil it down, he says "sure, there are racists out there, but that's something everyone has had to deal with, including the irish, and the way to get around it isn't to bitch about it, it's to figure out how to take it yourself. no one is going to give it you."
but i just as seriously disagree with and get annoyed with people who are so quick to yell about about bs reverse racism or inaccurately characterize complaints that involve race and distort them to fit their poli-eco-soci-world views (or whatever is the right way to state that). i find that sort of misrepresentation of arguments to fit their narrative just as, if not more, antithetical to good faith discussion and progress. and i hate bad faith arguments. no one said the giants were racist and i broke out that logic step by step in my post to eric. not one single person has stepped forward to counter that logic tree. and it's right there, each step listed and fully exposed. i'm in favor of progress, as i think everyone would be if this country's politics had not made that a dirty word. but now i'm tripping the third rail of this site which we've actually been riding this entire thread.
anyway, BLB, you said you were asking a serious question and so i wanted to give you a serious response. too many offsite meetings today so i won't have time for serious responses, and i have dinner tonight with a company that would bring those following this thread to their knees if they found out who it was. but if i'm not too toasty after drinking my martinis and eating my mutton chop at keens tonight i'll see what's going on.
Quote:
As do I know the word exclusively.
Lol. Pedantic. So you really meant to say football is not exclusively played by White and Black people?
wow. Give the man a lollipop! You root for (while root might be too strong a word since you don't take sports too seriously) for Halapio and Rosas.
People lecturing others on race are literally speaking in black/white terms.
Being racist is not a binary thing, as if once you pass a certain threshold you are racist.
Quote:
y'all fall into this trap everyone time this subject comes up. it's like you purposely don't understand the point being made
Sure we do.
He's arguing that the Giants are a racist organization.
Do you think they are?
I saw the bit and this is absolutely NOT what he said. He argued that there are plenty of white coaches who come out of nowhere and surprise you and do well. He specifically stated that he respects these coaches and doesn’t want to take anything away from them. He asked the question, why don’t we see black coaches getting plucked from obscurity and given the chance to surprise you. He has a point.
Quote:
In comment 14765582 MM_in_NYC said:
Quote:
y'all fall into this trap everyone time this subject comes up. it's like you purposely don't understand the point being made
Sure we do.
He's arguing that the Giants are a racist organization.
Do you think they are?
I saw the bit and this is absolutely NOT what he said. He argued that there are plenty of white coaches who come out of nowhere and surprise you and do well. He specifically stated that he respects these coaches and doesn’t want to take anything away from them. He asked the question, why don’t we see black coaches getting plucked from obscurity and given the chance to surprise you. He has a point.
Obviously is a more seldom occurrence but I posted earlier about Brian Flores. I bet SAS doesn't even know who Brian Flores is or that he has arguable less experience than Joe Judge and got hired last year as Miami's HC.
I don't think SAS is a bad guy, but I think his schtick is pretty dangerous when it comes to serious issues like this. Not fact checking and screaming about bad call in an NFL game is one thing, what's he's doing here is a completely different ball game - highly unprofessional and really bad journalism.
The problem I have is it almost condemns anyone who doesn't agree 100%. I think most intelligent and educated people in this country can recognize institutional racism is a huge problem. Even with great strides made during the Civil Rights movement to present, there are still social/institutional barriers that exist and are difficult to eliminate. But, since we are being asked to completely isolate race and this is approached almost as a totally black & white (literally and figuratively) topic, it's basically if you're not with us, you are against us.
Second, Smith may or may not be true. It is not something we will ever really prove or confirm. However, he is treading a very thin line by throwing out accusations based on nothing but his opinion and little substance behind it. This is far more irresponsible and dangerous, in my opinion, than the other opinion spewed as fact surrounding the Giants coaching decision.
Quote:
In comment 14766375 oldutican said:
Quote:
There isn't any specific appropriate number of black NFL coaches, but there damn sure should be more than 2.
Well, there ARE more than two. So we're all good now?
;-)
There are only 2 head coaches. Sorry I did not specify as I did in all my other comments.
Oh, I wasn't being that picky regarding your wording. My comment was in reference to there being 3 current head coaches (Tomlin, Lynn, Flores).
Of course, it was partly in jest and obviously doesn't really take away from your argument.
From Wikipedia:
The Rooney Rule is a National Football League policy that requires league teams to interview ethnic-minority candidates for head coaching and senior football operation jobs.
Back to my larger point, not directed at you but at Stephen A's points:
If the overall pool of coaches at all positions in the NFL has a more representative demographic of minorities, in any kind of fair world that in itself would eventually lead to more minorities in HC and Senior FO positions, organically, which is IMO preferable.
Looking forward to your next post on the issue when you have time.
ok, show me your numbers and how they show they numbers i found are bad.
The numbers you used aren't bad - I'm just pointing out that they give an incomplete and misleading picture when used alone. Without taking the time to research the numbers too much, simply adding in a few years in between changes the picture significantly.
2003 - 3 black head coaches
2007 - 6
2011 - 8
2015 - 5
2018 - 8
current - 3
Now, you could still use these numbers to argue that the RR isn't working (though easier to argue that it might be working but not well enough). But they certainly don't "100% support the position" that the RR isn't working or that there are not more black candidates being hired.
I don’t have a clue whether there was a better or equal black candidate than Judge, but I do know that the Giant paying fan base is very heavily older and white. If you don’t think that plays a factor in decision making you are burying your head in the sand.
Yes Smith is an over the top sports entertainer, but there is nothing wrong with continuing to point out this disparity. And it’s nice the Giants had a black GM, but the GM doesn’t stand on the sidelines as a primary face of the franchise.
So you're saying an "Older and white" fan base don't want a black coach?
I dont know how you come to that conclusion to be honest.
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In comment 14766643 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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As do I know the word exclusively.
Lol. Pedantic. So you really meant to say football is not exclusively played by White and Black people?
wow. Give the man a lollipop! You root for (while root might be too strong a word since you don't take sports too seriously) for Halapio and Rosas.
People lecturing others on race are literally speaking in black/white terms.
You're pretty reactionary and thin skinned when it comes to racism.
And I'm far from thinking about things in black and white.
adamg : 1/7/2020 10:30 pm : link : reply
Glad Stephen A is strong enough to say it on TV.
Must be awesome to pop into a discussion, state something assertively and back it up with absolutely nothing.
This is the kind of logic running rampant in this country these days.
Dude. You root for a franchise you believe is racist. And I have the small brain?
That's some great logic there.
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it's almost like the world is a complicated place. Couldn't be that though. We must reduce everything to a denominator as big as Dave's brain.
Dude. You root for a franchise you believe is racist. And I have the small brain?
That's some great logic there.
Hypocrisy and stupidity are two different things.
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68% of the players are black but only 2 of 32 coaches are black.
I hate it when people throw out unrelated statistics. What does the % of players who are minorities have to do with the % of coaches who are? Are you suggesting that just because someone can return punts or run a route they can now coach? The skill sets are vastly different.
Football fans care about one thing only. Winning. Whoever gives the team the best chance at doing that should be hired. Whether that's for WR, RB, OT, CB, OC, DC, HC, or GM. Period.