I found it interesting that he didn't say anything after McCarthy was hired by Dallas, or Rhule by Carolina, or Rivera by the Skins for that matter. Why did this hire set him off?
Because I live and breathe New York Giants football. And to me, to have someone accuse the Giants organization of being racist is not only patently absurd, it is viscerally offensive.
Seems like black coaches get interviews for jobs they aren’t going to get. 68% of the players are black but only 2 of 32 coaches are black. And it’s not like it hasn’t been that way for years so you can’t say there hasn’t been time for black coaches to work their way up.
I don’t have a clue whether there was a better or equal black candidate than Judge, but I do know that the Giant paying fan base is very heavily older and white. If you don’t think that plays a factor in decision making you are burying your head in the sand.
Yes Smith is an over the top sports entertainer, but there is nothing wrong with continuing to point out this disparity. And it’s nice the Giants had a black GM, but the GM doesn’t stand on the sidelines as a primary face of the franchise.
I used to be a die hard Giants fan but after realizing how bigoted the fans are it made me sour on them a little bit. However I don't think the Giants organization is racist just the fan base and people on here.
Isn't it ironic that you insinuate that I'm crying yet this whole thread is a bunch of babies crying because a TV personality called your precious Giants racist lol.
Is the fact that Ron Rivera is of Puerto Rican and Mexican descent. He is 100% Hispanic. And yet that NEVER gets mentioned. We keep just hearing "only 3 black coaches"... "no black HC hirings this time around"... but why is it not significant that Rivera is technically a minority.
And this is not to say that I'm not in favor of more black/minority coaching hirings. I think the fact that all but 1 NFL GM and every single NFL owner is white (I believe) has a lot to do with it, but that's another story. I just don't get why Rivera wasn't recognized during this cycle and really never recognized for being a minority HC.
I think that's an easy answer - he's already been a HC in the NFL. So it's less interesting...
I find Smith’s commentary often thoughtful
I do not agree with him most of the time
But it is important to hear another point of view
I do not think that the Giants are racist in any manner and they are in the business of winning football games
Right or wrong the Giants selected the coach that they believe will give them the best chance of winning
I think that there are qualified minority coaches and Smith is frustrated that none of them became a head coach
If Smith really wants to do something proactive he should find out why these candidates did not get the jobs and see how they can improve their presentations
Could it be that Judge got the job in part because has a PHD and is well conversant with analytics ?
It is too easy to blame the system and to say the selections are discriminatory
Football is a meritocracy as evidenced by 70 %of football players being black
If the system were truly biased I would expect to see fewer minorities as a percentage of the players
Seems like black coaches get interviews for jobs they aren’t going to get. 68% of the players are black but only 2 of 32 coaches are black. And it’s not like it hasn’t been that way for years so you can’t say there hasn’t been time for black coaches to work their way up.
I don’t have a clue whether there was a better or equal black candidate than Judge, but I do know that the Giant paying fan base is very heavily older and white. If you don’t think that plays a factor in decision making you are burying your head in the sand.
Yes Smith is an over the top sports entertainer, but there is nothing wrong with continuing to point out this disparity. And it’s nice the Giants had a black GM, but the GM doesn’t stand on the sidelines as a primary face of the franchise.
I used to be a die hard Giants fan but after realizing how bigoted the fans are it made me sour on them a little bit. However I don't think the Giants organization is racist just the fan base and people on here.
Isn't it ironic that you insinuate that I'm crying yet this whole thread is a bunch of babies crying because a TV personality called your precious Giants racist lol.
Seems like black coaches get interviews for jobs they aren’t going to get. 68% of the players are black but only 2 of 32 coaches are black. And it’s not like it hasn’t been that way for years so you can’t say there hasn’t been time for black coaches to work their way up.
I don’t have a clue whether there was a better or equal black candidate than Judge, but I do know that the Giant paying fan base is very heavily older and white. If you don’t think that plays a factor in decision making you are burying your head in the sand.
Yes Smith is an over the top sports entertainer, but there is nothing wrong with continuing to point out this disparity. And it’s nice the Giants had a black GM, but the GM doesn’t stand on the sidelines as a primary face of the franchise.
I used to be a die hard Giants fan but after realizing how bigoted the fans are it made me sour on them a little bit. However I don't think the Giants organization is racist just the fan base and people on here.
Isn't it ironic that you insinuate that I'm crying yet this whole thread is a bunch of babies crying because a TV personality called your precious Giants racist lol.
After at least an hour to reply, that's what you come up with?
He specifically called out the Giants in the context of this systemic discrimination. He used them as Exhibit A. In other words, he sees them as THE prime example.
Conclusion: Giants are racist.
You don't agree but his entire outrage targeted AT the Giants is based on RACE and RACE alone.
alright, i feel with this comment you're circling back to previous points that we've moved on from and i'm not going to go in circles on this. i actually think you and i in this discussion did flesh out what he was actually upset about. i actually think we made progress.
as i view it we agree as follows:
(1) he felt judge was underqualified for the ny market,
(2) he's never seen even one black candidate get a promotion and skip this many steps
(3) he feels this way because structural discrimination exists
where we disagree is you say (pls correct me if i'm wrong) anyone who says structural discrimination exists implies any agents in that group that benefits from it are racist. that is completely contrary to what i understand the theory of structural discrimination says. and as someone who does believe structural discrimination exists i will offer that i don't view those in the power group to be inherently racist.
anyway, that's my breakdown.
Judge has more NFL experience than Matt Rhule. John Harbaugh had a similar background before getting hired in Baltimore. Brian Flores only served as a position coach and is a minority. Why is New York held to a different standard than other NFL cities?
I used to be a die hard Giants fan but after realizing how bigoted the fans are it made me sour on them a little bit. However I don't think the Giants organization is racist just the fan base and people on here.
Just the idiotic shit you read on here from time to time. The whole issue with people shitting on Vernon for his shitty play which only started after he made his political beliefs known. With that said Smith is oof bases with his critique. I believe there wasn't a minority candidate that had any high level qualifications that made them deserving of a coaching job and no the Giants aren't a racist organization. Hell one of the reasons I'm Giants fan is because they hired Reese and to be honest if they were racist he wouldn't have lasted half as long as he did.
He specifically called out the Giants in the context of this systemic discrimination. He used them as Exhibit A. In other words, he sees them as THE prime example.
Conclusion: Giants are racist.
You don't agree but his entire outrage targeted AT the Giants is based on RACE and RACE alone.
alright, i feel with this comment you're circling back to previous points that we've moved on from and i'm not going to go in circles on this. i actually think you and i in this discussion did flesh out what he was actually upset about. i actually think we made progress.
as i view it we agree as follows:
(1) he felt judge was underqualified for the ny market,
(2) he's never seen even one black candidate get a promotion and skip this many steps
(3) he feels this way because structural discrimination exists
where we disagree is you say (pls correct me if i'm wrong) anyone who says structural discrimination exists implies any agents in that group that benefits from it are racist. that is completely contrary to what i understand the theory of structural discrimination says. and as someone who does believe structural discrimination exists i will offer that i don't view those in the power group to be inherently racist.
anyway, that's my breakdown.
Judge has more NFL experience than Matt Rhule. John Harbaugh had a similar background before getting hired in Baltimore. Brian Flores only served as a position coach and is a minority. Why is New York held to a different standard than other NFL cities?
(1) nfl experience isn't the only qualification that counts. college hc experience is clearly counted.
(2) harbaugh is white, that's precisely his point.
(3) flores was a position coach for 7 years. judge was stc coach for 4 years and a position coach for 1. judge is making a bigger jump. and as i asked first in this thread has any minority hire ever jumped from stc to hc? that is nevertheless a good data point and i agree.
pls keep in mind i'm totally good with the judge hire. i posted here within 5 minutes of learning it saying so, while that majority of folks here were losing their minds, but those are stephen's points.
i think it's generally agreed we're giving a major promotion to a judge, the type of promotion whereby he's skipping major steps normally taken. are you disagreeing with that?
I’d respectfully suggest you think about a more real world and nuanced view of race. You keep coming back “he is accusing the Giants of being a racist organization. “ Its not an either/or situation of being racist or not being racist. Race is a factor in so much of what happens in America and the NFL. It is just naive to think that in hiring a coach race is not a consideration. Do I think the Giants wouldn’t hire a black coach if they thought he was clearly the best candidate? No. But it is very likely a silent consideration.
You also do not address the disparity in the number of black players to black coaches. How do you explain this? Coincidence?
I’d respectfully suggest you think about a more real world and nuanced view of race. You keep coming back “he is accusing the Giants of being a racist organization. “ Its not an either/or situation of being racist or not being racist. Race is a factor in so much of what happens in America and the NFL. It is just naive to think that in hiring a coach race is not a consideration. Do I think the Giants wouldn’t hire a black coach if they thought he was clearly the best candidate? No. But it is very likely a silent consideration.
You also do not address the disparity in the number of black players to black coaches. How do you explain this? Coincidence?
You can't have it both ways. You either think the Giants are willing partners in a racially discriminatory league or you don't. You can't be a little bit pregnant.
The problem you have here is you've already made up your mind that racial oppression must be occurring. That's OK if that is your view. But if you do think that is the case, you must indict the Giants as well. And you are guilty of supporting a racist team.
Ronnie Barnes is gonna be pissed when he finds out the Giants are a racist organization from the top down.
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“I’d like to thank Wellington Mara, our late owner,” Barnes said. “He appointed me as the head athletic trainer in 1980 and it was almost 23 years before there was another person of color who was tapped to lead a medical department in our league. For him to have the vision to do that, I am really thrilled and touched by him and by his family.”
Ronnie Barnes is gonna be pissed when he finds out the Giants are a racist organization from the top down.
Quote:
“I’d like to thank Wellington Mara, our late owner,” Barnes said. “He appointed me as the head athletic trainer in 1980 and it was almost 23 years before there was another person of color who was tapped to lead a medical department in our league. For him to have the vision to do that, I am really thrilled and touched by him and by his family.”
i guess it's a good thing then no one said they were
the USA Today also gets the implication. Should they get lectured too?
Quote:
Following news of Judge’s pending hire, Stephen A. Smith hit the airwaves an unloaded on the Giants, implying that they are a racist organization who made a mockery of the Rooney Rule despite adhering to it and then some.
the USA Today also gets the implication. Should they get lectured too?
Quote:
Following news of Judge’s pending hire, Stephen A. Smith hit the airwaves an unloaded on the Giants, implying that they are a racist organization who made a mockery of the Rooney Rule despite adhering to it and then some.
Maybe email them about being "woke"?? Giants are a racist Organization - ( New Window )
the USA Today also gets the implication. Should they get lectured too?
Quote:
Following news of Judge’s pending hire, Stephen A. Smith hit the airwaves an unloaded on the Giants, implying that they are a racist organization who made a mockery of the Rooney Rule despite adhering to it and then some.
Maybe email them about being "woke"?? Giants are a racist Organization - ( New Window )
another swing and another miss. you're not having a good day. he is point is simple: the rooney rule is not causing black coaches to be hired as head coaches. do you think he's wrong?
that doesn't actually imply the giants are racist.
Which implies your point of view is correct. Everyone opposing that is wrong??
C'mon - another swing and miss retort in the works, Ace?
you won't answer my question about the rooney rule after you brought it up. you dropped your point about caldwell without a peep faster than janoris jenkins making a business decision against a running back when i showed you his employment history. and now you make this post and i have absolutely no idea what you're saying. you're just swinging wildly. yeah, this is another swing and miss. i mean maybe try to rephrase it or something so us "fucking morons" with "no fucking reading comprehension" can understand it. or don't, who cares. ace? ha.
about Caldwell was that he wasn't a NFL coordinator before becoming a HC. But that really doesn't matter.
What matters today is that Smith indeed implied that the Giants were racist for hiring Judge, and he completely ignored the Rooney Rule acting as if they didn't comply with it.
So, you can say people are swinging and missing all you want - but that's only because you are pretty poor at comprehending the implication of what Smith said. You want to make that everyone else's fault - that's on you, Chief.
I’d respectfully suggest you think about a more real world and nuanced view of race. You keep coming back “he is accusing the Giants of being a racist organization. “ Its not an either/or situation of being racist or not being racist. Race is a factor in so much of what happens in America and the NFL. It is just naive to think that in hiring a coach race is not a consideration. Do I think the Giants wouldn’t hire a black coach if they thought he was clearly the best candidate? No. But it is very likely a silent consideration.
You also do not address the disparity in the number of black players to black coaches. How do you explain this? Coincidence?
You can't have it both ways. You either think the Giants are willing partners in a racially discriminatory league or you don't. You can't be a little bit pregnant.
The problem you have here is you've already made up your mind that racial oppression must be occurring. That's OK if that is your view. But if you do think that is the case, you must indict the Giants as well. And you are guilty of supporting a racist team.
Your pregnant analogy doesn't work. Please do some research on institutional racism, which certainly appears to be the case when 68% of NFL players are black and less than 10% are head coaches. I would never say I never exhibit any signs of racism. I accept that it is part of our society and I deal with how it affects my thinking. It is regrettable that we find it so difficult to talk about this. I feel we should talk less about whether someone is a racist and think more about racism as behaviors that people exhibit. And that applies to people of all races and how we see each other.
This Was Better Than Christmas Morning for Stephen A Â
about Caldwell was that he wasn't a NFL coordinator before becoming a HC. But that really doesn't matter.
What matters today is that Smith indeed implied that the Giants were racist for hiring Judge, and he completely ignored the Rooney Rule acting as if they didn't comply with it.
So, you can say people are swinging and missing all you want - but that's only because you are pretty poor at comprehending the implication of what Smith said. You want to make that everyone else's fault - that's on you, Chief.
no, i'm explicitly saying you're swinging and missing. not some abstract group of people. you.
as too the rooney that is asked and answered - but not be you. so i'll ask you again, are more black candidates being hired? since you're clearly unwilling to answer i'll do it for you. in 2003 there were 3 black head coaches, and in 2020 there are three black head coaches. smith's point was the rooney rule wasn't working and the numbers 100% support that position.
and lastly, no - he did not imply the giants were racist. feel free to review the posts with eric on this topic. as i described there and will briefly recount here, smith's point was simple: black coaches with the type of special team experience judge has are not being hired as head coaches. that's a simple fact. brian flores is a great example because he was just a position coach who was hired, and that is a positive development. but he's one person. how many white coaches have taken that path? i don't have the figures but it blows that out of the water. you tried to cite caldwell and apparently suffered from your own form of reading comprehension issues as my post to yours showed.
chief? ace? "fucking moron?" do you think you make you're argument stronger when you resort to saying things like that? you don't. you sound weak.
smith did not say candidates with judges's experience should not be hired. he said why are there so few or no black coaches with even more experience and qualification being passed over. and no black coaches were hired this cycle.
you'll just keep responding and responding and change the subject each time your next point is shot down or you don't see what to say next, as has happened about 5 times above, so i'm done with you for tonight on this. was fun playing with you but i got other things to do. later
The irony is spectacularly rich with MM's posts. Â
I'm not sure I even understand what your point is.
The Giants have NEVER hired a black head coach. They have never started a black quarterback.
Based on your criteria, they must be institutionally racist.
Correct?
He’s simply saying that race factors into decisions in our society in subtle and nuanced ways, as evidenced by racial disparities in many different fields, including the NFL. There are 2 black NFL coaches, 1 black U.S. Senator, etc etc. It upsets people to suggest that they make subtle maybe subconscious decisions based on race, but I think we all do, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
wasn't about the Rooney Rule. Smith was too busy railing on the Giants, he acted as if thhy didn't comply with the rule:
Quote:
“This don’t happen for black folk. A wide receivers coach that becomes the head coach. Eric Bieniemy is in Kansas City. Now, he’s the offensive coordinator even though he’s not the play-caller. That would be because the great Andy Reid is the one calling the plays. This guy gets those gratuitous interviews that don’t really amount to anything. I don’t know who they brought in for the Rooney Rule.
My posts specifically pointed to Smith's words. "This doesn't happen for black folk". "I don't want to hear a damn thing else about the Rooney Rule after this hire by the New York Giants". His directly calling out the Giants there and here:
Quote:
So, I want everyone to understand that my criticism — and it is a criticism — of this choice by the New York Giants, who are regressing before our very eyes as a standard in the National Football League. Here’s the reason I say this. And, again, Mr. Joe Judge, to you and your family, I apologize. These comments are not directed towards him …
What do those words have to do with if the Rooney Rule is effective or not? They are specifically pointed at the New York Giants for not hiring a black coach. Period. The rest is just commentary be a guy who apparently forgot how to use line breaks, capitalization and punctuation.
I'm not sure I even understand what your point is.
The Giants have NEVER hired a black head coach. They have never started a black quarterback.
Based on your criteria, they must be institutionally racist.
Correct?
First off, its not fair to only focus on the Giants. So I'm not here to defend a TV sports entertainer's specific charges against NYG.
You have yet to address the disparity in the percentage of black players and head coaches. If the 68% of players who are black are "the best men for the job", how can it be that only 2 of 32 are the best men to be HCs.
As for your question, there are very few institutions that do not show patterns of institutional racism. The NFL is, to my mind, no exception. You know football and how long it took to openly accept black QBs. It seems the same thing is happening with coaches.
We tend to get very defensive discussing race. Again, I hope you take this with respect in hopes of a more fruitful dialogue.
It's like someone never learned about the transitive property. Â
I understand your position. You want equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.
The only solution to the former is to FORCE racial quotas. You must support Roger Goodell dictating to John Mara and Steve Tisch that they hire a black head coach. (I assume you are not bothered by under-representation of other races).
But you really didn't answer my question about whether or not you think the Giants are institutionally a bigoted organization?
Is infinitesimally small. The n is too small to make any argument about proportional representation. This hiring clearly points to a decision made based purely on the individual and a uniqueness about that individual. It just doesn’t fit into Smith’s argument. You don’t really see white people elevated in this fashion (as a group), so his comparison is not apt.
Not to sound like a smart ass, but I'm going to sound like a smart ass.
Does being bigoted in a "nuanced" way or bigoted in a "subconscious" way allow you to justify your support for such bigotry?
Let's cut the BS. You either feel the Giants are a bigoted operation or you don't. And you are dancing around it with semantics.
Eric, I disagree I’m dancing around. I’m typing on my phone with many distracting teenage kids still awake so pardon my brief response, but I’ll just say this: I’m a white guy married to an African-American woman who works on progressive issues, many of which touch on race relations. Having been immersed in these issues over the years, I have learned a lot. I used to think of things in the (unintended pun) black and white terms you describe above — but I have a different perspective these days. I don’t you think need to make a determination that a person is an intentional bigot or an organization is institutionally racist in looking critically at racial hiring disparities (which are consistently skewed heavily white in numerous professions, not just the NFL). I think race factors into many of our day to day decisions, including hiring decisions. Out of the 92 NFL, NBA, MLB teams, 91 are majority owned by white people (Jordan is the 1 black owner). So when I see the ratio of black coaches to black players within this 91 of 92 framework, it triggers a need to understand how these hiring disparities came to pass. You evidently disagree, but I’m not trying to be inflammatory, it’s just my honest opinion.
I understand your position. You want equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.
The only solution to the former is to FORCE racial quotas. You must support Roger Goodell dictating to John Mara and Steve Tisch that they hire a black head coach. (I assume you are not bothered by under-representation of other races).
But you really didn't answer my question about whether or not you think the Giants are institutionally a bigoted organization?
Very discouraging response. Doesn't seem you gave anything I said any serious thought.
What other races would be under-represented among NFL coaches? Asians, Martians? Football is an American sport played almost exclusively by white and black Americans.
I never used the word bigoted. You did. I tried to show this isn't a simple question and reduce a sense of guilt about it. Sorry if that didn't come through.
You are being willfully naive to claim their is no racism in the NFL, including the Giants. I'm not proposing quotas or equal outcomes. This is a straw dog. There isn't any specific appropriate number of black NFL coaches, but there damn sure should be more than 2.
In comment 14766348 christian said:
[quote] The New York Giants guided and advanced Jerry Reese from scout to GM. Ronnie Barnes is at the top of his profession.
The Giants coaching staff had 11 people of color on it last year.
That's pretty cagey racism. [/quote
B-b-b-ut look at all of the white coaches around the league! LOL.
as too the rooney that is asked and answered - but not be you. so i'll ask you again, are more black candidates being hired? since you're clearly unwilling to answer i'll do it for you. in 2003 there were 3 black head coaches, and in 2020 there are three black head coaches. smith's point was the rooney rule wasn't working and the numbers 100% support that position.
It only looks like the numbers 100% support that position when you only use the start point and end point and ignore what happened in between.
RE: RE: The irony is spectacularly rich with MM's posts. Â
as i'm sure yours would not be if you had the guts to express yourself
MM I have a serious question for you: do you know the data of race demographics for ALL the coaches in the NFL and if/how that demographic may have changed since the institution of the Rooney Rule?
I think it's a relevant data set, because if you want to make a point about institutional racism, I think you need to examine a larger population than the pool of NFL Head coaches, since there are only 32 of them in total.
It's simply not a big enough sample size from which to draw inferences about "institutional racism."
I'd be far more inclined to give credence to your argument about institutional racism in the NFL if the % of all minority, or even all black, coaches hasn't increased over the 20 year span of the Rooney Rule.
Quote:
In comment 14765492 oldutican said:
Quote:
Seems like black coaches get interviews for jobs they aren’t going to get. 68% of the players are black but only 2 of 32 coaches are black. And it’s not like it hasn’t been that way for years so you can’t say there hasn’t been time for black coaches to work their way up.
I don’t have a clue whether there was a better or equal black candidate than Judge, but I do know that the Giant paying fan base is very heavily older and white. If you don’t think that plays a factor in decision making you are burying your head in the sand.
Yes Smith is an over the top sports entertainer, but there is nothing wrong with continuing to point out this disparity. And it’s nice the Giants had a black GM, but the GM doesn’t stand on the sidelines as a primary face of the franchise.
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I used to be a die hard Giants fan but after realizing how bigoted the fans are it made me sour on them a little bit. However I don't think the Giants organization is racist just the fan base and people on here.
Cry.
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Isn't it ironic that you insinuate that I'm crying yet this whole thread is a bunch of babies crying because a TV personality called your precious Giants racist lol.
And this is not to say that I'm not in favor of more black/minority coaching hirings. I think the fact that all but 1 NFL GM and every single NFL owner is white (I believe) has a lot to do with it, but that's another story. I just don't get why Rivera wasn't recognized during this cycle and really never recognized for being a minority HC.
I think that's an easy answer - he's already been a HC in the NFL. So it's less interesting...
I do not agree with him most of the time
But it is important to hear another point of view
I do not think that the Giants are racist in any manner and they are in the business of winning football games
Right or wrong the Giants selected the coach that they believe will give them the best chance of winning
I think that there are qualified minority coaches and Smith is frustrated that none of them became a head coach
If Smith really wants to do something proactive he should find out why these candidates did not get the jobs and see how they can improve their presentations
Could it be that Judge got the job in part because has a PHD and is well conversant with analytics ?
It is too easy to blame the system and to say the selections are discriminatory
Football is a meritocracy as evidenced by 70 %of football players being black
If the system were truly biased I would expect to see fewer minorities as a percentage of the players
Quote:
In comment 14765619 nicks14 said:
Quote:
In comment 14765492 oldutican said:
Quote:
Seems like black coaches get interviews for jobs they aren’t going to get. 68% of the players are black but only 2 of 32 coaches are black. And it’s not like it hasn’t been that way for years so you can’t say there hasn’t been time for black coaches to work their way up.
I don’t have a clue whether there was a better or equal black candidate than Judge, but I do know that the Giant paying fan base is very heavily older and white. If you don’t think that plays a factor in decision making you are burying your head in the sand.
Yes Smith is an over the top sports entertainer, but there is nothing wrong with continuing to point out this disparity. And it’s nice the Giants had a black GM, but the GM doesn’t stand on the sidelines as a primary face of the franchise.
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I used to be a die hard Giants fan but after realizing how bigoted the fans are it made me sour on them a little bit. However I don't think the Giants organization is racist just the fan base and people on here.
Cry.
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Isn't it ironic that you insinuate that I'm crying yet this whole thread is a bunch of babies crying because a TV personality called your precious Giants racist lol.
Our precious Giants?
Quote:
In comment 14765619 nicks14 said:
Quote:
In comment 14765492 oldutican said:
Quote:
Seems like black coaches get interviews for jobs they aren’t going to get. 68% of the players are black but only 2 of 32 coaches are black. And it’s not like it hasn’t been that way for years so you can’t say there hasn’t been time for black coaches to work their way up.
I don’t have a clue whether there was a better or equal black candidate than Judge, but I do know that the Giant paying fan base is very heavily older and white. If you don’t think that plays a factor in decision making you are burying your head in the sand.
Yes Smith is an over the top sports entertainer, but there is nothing wrong with continuing to point out this disparity. And it’s nice the Giants had a black GM, but the GM doesn’t stand on the sidelines as a primary face of the franchise.
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I used to be a die hard Giants fan but after realizing how bigoted the fans are it made me sour on them a little bit. However I don't think the Giants organization is racist just the fan base and people on here.
Cry.
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Isn't it ironic that you insinuate that I'm crying yet this whole thread is a bunch of babies crying because a TV personality called your precious Giants racist lol.
After at least an hour to reply, that's what you come up with?
Quote:
He specifically called out the Giants in the context of this systemic discrimination. He used them as Exhibit A. In other words, he sees them as THE prime example.
Conclusion: Giants are racist.
You don't agree but his entire outrage targeted AT the Giants is based on RACE and RACE alone.
alright, i feel with this comment you're circling back to previous points that we've moved on from and i'm not going to go in circles on this. i actually think you and i in this discussion did flesh out what he was actually upset about. i actually think we made progress.
as i view it we agree as follows:
(1) he felt judge was underqualified for the ny market,
(2) he's never seen even one black candidate get a promotion and skip this many steps
(3) he feels this way because structural discrimination exists
where we disagree is you say (pls correct me if i'm wrong) anyone who says structural discrimination exists implies any agents in that group that benefits from it are racist. that is completely contrary to what i understand the theory of structural discrimination says. and as someone who does believe structural discrimination exists i will offer that i don't view those in the power group to be inherently racist.
anyway, that's my breakdown.
Judge has more NFL experience than Matt Rhule. John Harbaugh had a similar background before getting hired in Baltimore. Brian Flores only served as a position coach and is a minority. Why is New York held to a different standard than other NFL cities?
Quote:
I used to be a die hard Giants fan but after realizing how bigoted the fans are it made me sour on them a little bit. However I don't think the Giants organization is racist just the fan base and people on here.
Seriously? What makes you say that?
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Just the idiotic shit you read on here from time to time. The whole issue with people shitting on Vernon for his shitty play which only started after he made his political beliefs known. With that said Smith is oof bases with his critique. I believe there wasn't a minority candidate that had any high level qualifications that made them deserving of a coaching job and no the Giants aren't a racist organization. Hell one of the reasons I'm Giants fan is because they hired Reese and to be honest if they were racist he wouldn't have lasted half as long as he did.
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In comment 14765794 Eric from BBI said:
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He specifically called out the Giants in the context of this systemic discrimination. He used them as Exhibit A. In other words, he sees them as THE prime example.
Conclusion: Giants are racist.
You don't agree but his entire outrage targeted AT the Giants is based on RACE and RACE alone.
alright, i feel with this comment you're circling back to previous points that we've moved on from and i'm not going to go in circles on this. i actually think you and i in this discussion did flesh out what he was actually upset about. i actually think we made progress.
as i view it we agree as follows:
(1) he felt judge was underqualified for the ny market,
(2) he's never seen even one black candidate get a promotion and skip this many steps
(3) he feels this way because structural discrimination exists
where we disagree is you say (pls correct me if i'm wrong) anyone who says structural discrimination exists implies any agents in that group that benefits from it are racist. that is completely contrary to what i understand the theory of structural discrimination says. and as someone who does believe structural discrimination exists i will offer that i don't view those in the power group to be inherently racist.
anyway, that's my breakdown.
Judge has more NFL experience than Matt Rhule. John Harbaugh had a similar background before getting hired in Baltimore. Brian Flores only served as a position coach and is a minority. Why is New York held to a different standard than other NFL cities?
(1) nfl experience isn't the only qualification that counts. college hc experience is clearly counted.
(2) harbaugh is white, that's precisely his point.
(3) flores was a position coach for 7 years. judge was stc coach for 4 years and a position coach for 1. judge is making a bigger jump. and as i asked first in this thread has any minority hire ever jumped from stc to hc? that is nevertheless a good data point and i agree.
pls keep in mind i'm totally good with the judge hire. i posted here within 5 minutes of learning it saying so, while that majority of folks here were losing their minds, but those are stephen's points.
i think it's generally agreed we're giving a major promotion to a judge, the type of promotion whereby he's skipping major steps normally taken. are you disagreeing with that?
You also do not address the disparity in the number of black players to black coaches. How do you explain this? Coincidence?
You also do not address the disparity in the number of black players to black coaches. How do you explain this? Coincidence?
You can't have it both ways. You either think the Giants are willing partners in a racially discriminatory league or you don't. You can't be a little bit pregnant.
The problem you have here is you've already made up your mind that racial oppression must be occurring. That's OK if that is your view. But if you do think that is the case, you must indict the Giants as well. And you are guilty of supporting a racist team.
Narratives become what people want them to become and supporting that is simple...
Narratives become what people want them to become and supporting that is simple...
he was head coach at wake forest for 8 years. and assistant head coach for 7 years with the colts before being promoted. what else you got?
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“I’d like to thank Wellington Mara, our late owner,” Barnes said. “He appointed me as the head athletic trainer in 1980 and it was almost 23 years before there was another person of color who was tapped to lead a medical department in our league. For him to have the vision to do that, I am really thrilled and touched by him and by his family.”
i guess it's a good thing then no one said they were
Maybe email them about being "woke"??
Giants are a racist Organization - ( New Window )
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Following news of Judge’s pending hire, Stephen A. Smith hit the airwaves an unloaded on the Giants, implying that they are a racist organization who made a mockery of the Rooney Rule despite adhering to it and then some.
Maybe email them about being "woke"?? Giants are a racist Organization - ( New Window )
Appealing to the authority of dan Benton?
FYI BBI is also part of USA Today.
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Following news of Judge’s pending hire, Stephen A. Smith hit the airwaves an unloaded on the Giants, implying that they are a racist organization who made a mockery of the Rooney Rule despite adhering to it and then some.
Maybe email them about being "woke"?? Giants are a racist Organization - ( New Window )
another swing and another miss. you're not having a good day. he is point is simple: the rooney rule is not causing black coaches to be hired as head coaches. do you think he's wrong?
Because you don't see it, doesn't negate that.
You actually said:
Which implies your point of view is correct. Everyone opposing that is wrong??
C'mon - another swing and miss retort in the works, Ace?
Because you don't see it, doesn't negate that.
You actually said:
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that doesn't actually imply the giants are racist.
Which implies your point of view is correct. Everyone opposing that is wrong??
C'mon - another swing and miss retort in the works, Ace?
you won't answer my question about the rooney rule after you brought it up. you dropped your point about caldwell without a peep faster than janoris jenkins making a business decision against a running back when i showed you his employment history. and now you make this post and i have absolutely no idea what you're saying. you're just swinging wildly. yeah, this is another swing and miss. i mean maybe try to rephrase it or something so us "fucking morons" with "no fucking reading comprehension" can understand it. or don't, who cares. ace? ha.
What matters today is that Smith indeed implied that the Giants were racist for hiring Judge, and he completely ignored the Rooney Rule acting as if they didn't comply with it.
So, you can say people are swinging and missing all you want - but that's only because you are pretty poor at comprehending the implication of what Smith said. You want to make that everyone else's fault - that's on you, Chief.
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I’d respectfully suggest you think about a more real world and nuanced view of race. You keep coming back “he is accusing the Giants of being a racist organization. “ Its not an either/or situation of being racist or not being racist. Race is a factor in so much of what happens in America and the NFL. It is just naive to think that in hiring a coach race is not a consideration. Do I think the Giants wouldn’t hire a black coach if they thought he was clearly the best candidate? No. But it is very likely a silent consideration.
You also do not address the disparity in the number of black players to black coaches. How do you explain this? Coincidence?
You can't have it both ways. You either think the Giants are willing partners in a racially discriminatory league or you don't. You can't be a little bit pregnant.
The problem you have here is you've already made up your mind that racial oppression must be occurring. That's OK if that is your view. But if you do think that is the case, you must indict the Giants as well. And you are guilty of supporting a racist team.
Your pregnant analogy doesn't work. Please do some research on institutional racism, which certainly appears to be the case when 68% of NFL players are black and less than 10% are head coaches. I would never say I never exhibit any signs of racism. I accept that it is part of our society and I deal with how it affects my thinking. It is regrettable that we find it so difficult to talk about this. I feel we should talk less about whether someone is a racist and think more about racism as behaviors that people exhibit. And that applies to people of all races and how we see each other.
The Giants have NEVER hired a black head coach. They have never started a black quarterback.
Based on your criteria, they must be institutionally racist.
Correct?
What matters today is that Smith indeed implied that the Giants were racist for hiring Judge, and he completely ignored the Rooney Rule acting as if they didn't comply with it.
So, you can say people are swinging and missing all you want - but that's only because you are pretty poor at comprehending the implication of what Smith said. You want to make that everyone else's fault - that's on you, Chief.
no, i'm explicitly saying you're swinging and missing. not some abstract group of people. you.
as too the rooney that is asked and answered - but not be you. so i'll ask you again, are more black candidates being hired? since you're clearly unwilling to answer i'll do it for you. in 2003 there were 3 black head coaches, and in 2020 there are three black head coaches. smith's point was the rooney rule wasn't working and the numbers 100% support that position.
and lastly, no - he did not imply the giants were racist. feel free to review the posts with eric on this topic. as i described there and will briefly recount here, smith's point was simple: black coaches with the type of special team experience judge has are not being hired as head coaches. that's a simple fact. brian flores is a great example because he was just a position coach who was hired, and that is a positive development. but he's one person. how many white coaches have taken that path? i don't have the figures but it blows that out of the water. you tried to cite caldwell and apparently suffered from your own form of reading comprehension issues as my post to yours showed.
chief? ace? "fucking moron?" do you think you make you're argument stronger when you resort to saying things like that? you don't. you sound weak.
smith did not say candidates with judges's experience should not be hired. he said why are there so few or no black coaches with even more experience and qualification being passed over. and no black coaches were hired this cycle.
you'll just keep responding and responding and change the subject each time your next point is shot down or you don't see what to say next, as has happened about 5 times above, so i'm done with you for tonight on this. was fun playing with you but i got other things to do. later
The Giants have NEVER hired a black head coach. They have never started a black quarterback.
Based on your criteria, they must be institutionally racist.
Correct?
He’s simply saying that race factors into decisions in our society in subtle and nuanced ways, as evidenced by racial disparities in many different fields, including the NFL. There are 2 black NFL coaches, 1 black U.S. Senator, etc etc. It upsets people to suggest that they make subtle maybe subconscious decisions based on race, but I think we all do, and we’ll just have to agree to disagree.
Does being bigoted in a "nuanced" way or bigoted in a "subconscious" way allow you to justify your support for such bigotry?
Let's cut the BS. You either feel the Giants are a bigoted operation or you don't. And you are dancing around it with semantics.
My posts specifically pointed to Smith's words. "This doesn't happen for black folk". "I don't want to hear a damn thing else about the Rooney Rule after this hire by the New York Giants". His directly calling out the Giants there and here:
What do those words have to do with if the Rooney Rule is effective or not? They are specifically pointed at the New York Giants for not hiring a black coach. Period. The rest is just commentary be a guy who apparently forgot how to use line breaks, capitalization and punctuation.
It probably is time for bed there, Fella
The Giants have NEVER hired a black head coach. They have never started a black quarterback.
Based on your criteria, they must be institutionally racist.
Correct?
First off, its not fair to only focus on the Giants. So I'm not here to defend a TV sports entertainer's specific charges against NYG.
You have yet to address the disparity in the percentage of black players and head coaches. If the 68% of players who are black are "the best men for the job", how can it be that only 2 of 32 are the best men to be HCs.
As for your question, there are very few institutions that do not show patterns of institutional racism. The NFL is, to my mind, no exception. You know football and how long it took to openly accept black QBs. It seems the same thing is happening with coaches.
We tend to get very defensive discussing race. Again, I hope you take this with respect in hopes of a more fruitful dialogue.
The only solution to the former is to FORCE racial quotas. You must support Roger Goodell dictating to John Mara and Steve Tisch that they hire a black head coach. (I assume you are not bothered by under-representation of other races).
But you really didn't answer my question about whether or not you think the Giants are institutionally a bigoted organization?
This isn't a racist organization.
The Giants coaching staff had 11 people of color on it last year.
That's pretty cagey racism.
I don't take sports too seriously.
Fair point. What would you have me do though? Go picket Metlife?
Resistance is futile. And if I would resist it wouldn't be to get racism out of sports. I'd target something more substantive.
as i'm sure yours would not be if you had the guts to express yourself
Does being bigoted in a "nuanced" way or bigoted in a "subconscious" way allow you to justify your support for such bigotry?
Let's cut the BS. You either feel the Giants are a bigoted operation or you don't. And you are dancing around it with semantics.
Eric, I disagree I’m dancing around. I’m typing on my phone with many distracting teenage kids still awake so pardon my brief response, but I’ll just say this: I’m a white guy married to an African-American woman who works on progressive issues, many of which touch on race relations. Having been immersed in these issues over the years, I have learned a lot. I used to think of things in the (unintended pun) black and white terms you describe above — but I have a different perspective these days. I don’t you think need to make a determination that a person is an intentional bigot or an organization is institutionally racist in looking critically at racial hiring disparities (which are consistently skewed heavily white in numerous professions, not just the NFL). I think race factors into many of our day to day decisions, including hiring decisions. Out of the 92 NFL, NBA, MLB teams, 91 are majority owned by white people (Jordan is the 1 black owner). So when I see the ratio of black coaches to black players within this 91 of 92 framework, it triggers a need to understand how these hiring disparities came to pass. You evidently disagree, but I’m not trying to be inflammatory, it’s just my honest opinion.
The only solution to the former is to FORCE racial quotas. You must support Roger Goodell dictating to John Mara and Steve Tisch that they hire a black head coach. (I assume you are not bothered by under-representation of other races).
But you really didn't answer my question about whether or not you think the Giants are institutionally a bigoted organization?
Very discouraging response. Doesn't seem you gave anything I said any serious thought.
What other races would be under-represented among NFL coaches? Asians, Martians? Football is an American sport played almost exclusively by white and black Americans.
I never used the word bigoted. You did. I tried to show this isn't a simple question and reduce a sense of guilt about it. Sorry if that didn't come through.
You are being willfully naive to claim their is no racism in the NFL, including the Giants. I'm not proposing quotas or equal outcomes. This is a straw dog. There isn't any specific appropriate number of black NFL coaches, but there damn sure should be more than 2.
[quote] The New York Giants guided and advanced Jerry Reese from scout to GM. Ronnie Barnes is at the top of his profession.
The Giants coaching staff had 11 people of color on it last year.
That's pretty cagey racism. [/quote
B-b-b-ut look at all of the white coaches around the league! LOL.
as too the rooney that is asked and answered - but not be you. so i'll ask you again, are more black candidates being hired? since you're clearly unwilling to answer i'll do it for you. in 2003 there were 3 black head coaches, and in 2020 there are three black head coaches. smith's point was the rooney rule wasn't working and the numbers 100% support that position.
It only looks like the numbers 100% support that position when you only use the start point and end point and ignore what happened in between.
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as i'm sure yours would not be if you had the guts to express yourself
MM I have a serious question for you: do you know the data of race demographics for ALL the coaches in the NFL and if/how that demographic may have changed since the institution of the Rooney Rule?
I think it's a relevant data set, because if you want to make a point about institutional racism, I think you need to examine a larger population than the pool of NFL Head coaches, since there are only 32 of them in total.
It's simply not a big enough sample size from which to draw inferences about "institutional racism."
I'd be far more inclined to give credence to your argument about institutional racism in the NFL if the % of all minority, or even all black, coaches hasn't increased over the 20 year span of the Rooney Rule.