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Tell tale on Rhule: Was not confident on selling Giants

GiantTuff1 : 1/10/2020 7:27 am
There is a lot of talk of Mara not wanting to match the 7 year commitment to Rhule, and at the surface that bothers me as I believe in “doing whatever it takes” to get the “very best” and have similar philosophical views to Terps on the coach being the most important part of the team equation. Paying a coach what would amount to the 4th-5th most of any player on the roster — the commitment seems pretty small by comparison.

What I don’t think is being talked about enough is this — I do not necessarily believe Mara would not have matched the offer, but he wasn’t going to match such a large commitment blind. Who here would purchase a car sight unseen? Especially when the dealer says he has another buyer in the mix, and he’s rushing you on the phone? If the Giants made that deal and it didn’t work out again, the PR storm around incompetence would make what’s gone on the last few years seem like small potatoes, and what of hope after that for Giants fans? You think our faith is low now?

But here is the most important part for me. Matt Rhule had every opportunity to come to the Giants and sell himself. He had every opportunity to come here, essentially compete, and win over Mara and Tisch like he would have to do with a team week in and week out. Who is to say Rhule, if he is as good as others say he is (and he thinks of himself), could not have walked in there and blew the doors off the Giants to the extent Mara and Tisch did something unprecedented and gave him that 7 year $62 million deal. You would think for a coach of his hype, that’s exactly what one would have expected, especially in a fight for your dream job.

But that is not what happened.

Instead of being classy and following through on a commitment to meet with the Giants, and most importantly compete with Judge and work like hell to win the Giants over on the commitment part, Matt Rhule pulled a classic “I don’t want to hurt my brand” and instead tucked tail and took Tepper’s offer.

The fact he didn’t even feel confident, even when the chances may have been low, that he deserves that level of commitment, shows me the character of a man I do not want leading my football team. It shows me he’s more hype than substance.

I would have expected him to say F that, I’m winning this thing, showing them why I need 6-7 years, and winning. Is that not the same mentality needed to win leading a football team? But he didn’t do that. Worse, he didn’t even try.

Mara, and the Giants brass I’m sure saw and felt that, but this time they had an Ace up their sleeve with Judge.

Tisch said after the PC “everything happens for a reason”. I’m beginning to believe the Giants may have been very fortuitous, and Tepper was just the right foil that allowed to Giants to see Rhule’s true colors, beyond the preacher salesman.

Bottom line is the Giants made the right decision, even if it was a blind squirrel finding a nut. I applaud them.

And it was an easy decision even if the two would have squared off, but Rhule made it that much easier.
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RE: RE: This is becoming unhealthy  
GiantTuff1 : 1/10/2020 8:41 am : link
In comment 14771220 cosmicj said:
Quote:
In comment 14771167 j_rud said:


Quote:


I shudder to think what this place will look like should Judge stumble out of the gate while the Panthers start the season 3-0.

That very possibly will happen. We need to steady our nerves.


I am going on record right now saying the Giants should give him 4 full years, with the jury out years 3-4. We all collectively need to be more patient to help our team, and this new HC..
This is a complete misreading of the situation  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/10/2020 8:45 am : link
Instead of being classy and following through on a commitment to meet with the Giants, and most importantly compete with Judge and work like hell to win the Giants over on the commitment part, Matt Rhule pulled a classic “I don’t want to hurt my brand” and instead tucked tail and took Tepper’s offer.

If someone's offering you 7 years and almost 100 million dollars, you don't say "I'll think about it" and risk losing the offer. That's complete nonsense and the only way you could have the opinion that he should have walked out the door is if you are not actually considering the situation or youjust can't comprehend being in his shoes.

He did the classy thing: contacted the Giants to let them know of the situation and give them an opportunity.

RE: RE: So your theory is that after meeting with Judge on Monday  
ron mexico : 1/10/2020 8:46 am : link
In comment 14771276 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 14771260 ron mexico said:


Quote:


They called Rhule Monday afternoon to move their meeting the next day?

I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous.

They wanted him in the building to do the hard sell and it just happened to be reported on Monday.




They loved Judge and still wanted to meet Rhule but no longer felt the need to go to him.

And your theory is what?

They moved it to NJ to pitch the hard sell? What did they want to do before that? Not pitch him a hard sell?

Brilliant logic.


My theory is Rhule was their #1 target and they wanted to have the the interview in NJ. The push to do it here was made before they met with Judge and had nothing to do with him.
RE: Maybe Rhule liked what he heard in Carolina  
an_idol_mind : 1/10/2020 8:48 am : link
In comment 14771171 GiantsRage2007 said:
Quote:
And was comfortable with the situation, owner, job, etc... and just picked them over us? His agent calls to do his due diligence but he picked Carolina. The End?


I'm 100% sure this is what happened.

As to the Giants' end, I think Mara painted a good picture when he was asked why he wouldn't give anybody a seven-year contract:

Quote:
For a new head coach in the National Football League, I just did not think that was a reasonable way to go. That’s all. And again, would we have talked about moving some parts around in that deal? Possibly, if we weren’t excited about the candidate we already had.


Right at the end of that, he makes it clear that the team might have tried to put together a decent offer to Rhule if they weren't sold on Judge.

This is very straightforward. The Panthers got their guy, Rhule got a team he wanted. The Giants got a guy they wanted. I know we'll go over "what-if" scenarios ad-nauseum, but at the moment I think both teams came away happy with how things worked out.
RE: RE: RE: So your theory is that after meeting with Judge on Monday  
Chris684 : 1/10/2020 8:50 am : link
In comment 14771295 ron mexico said:
Quote:
In comment 14771276 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 14771260 ron mexico said:


Quote:


They called Rhule Monday afternoon to move their meeting the next day?

I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous.

They wanted him in the building to do the hard sell and it just happened to be reported on Monday.




They loved Judge and still wanted to meet Rhule but no longer felt the need to go to him.

And your theory is what?

They moved it to NJ to pitch the hard sell? What did they want to do before that? Not pitch him a hard sell?

Brilliant logic.



My theory is Rhule was their #1 target and they wanted to have the the interview in NJ. The push to do it here was made before they met with Judge and had nothing to do with him.


You would have to twist the timeline around of what we know was reported and when for your theory to prove out.
No I wouldn’t  
ron mexico : 1/10/2020 8:52 am : link
You are assuming Schefter reported that within hours of it happening. That’s the harder sell.
I think if you just switch places with Rhule you would all do the same  
Jim in Forest Hills : 1/10/2020 8:52 am : link
damn thing.

He got a friggin historic offer here for a first time coach.

Tepper simply overpaid.

Rhule gave the Giants a courtesy call.

I dont think it was about confidence. I think he saw 7 guaranteed years at 10M per year and what that would mean to him and his family and said yes. Don't overthink this. It was an overpayment.
RE: No I wouldn’t  
Chris684 : 1/10/2020 8:54 am : link
In comment 14771308 ron mexico said:
Quote:
You are assuming Schefter reported that within hours of it happening. That’s the harder sell.


Yea because it takes a long time to tweet breaking news on twitter. I forgot!

Next time I see news broken on twitter I'll assume it happened yesterday.
RE: Are there really sufficient details out there to ascertain  
GiantTuff1 : 1/10/2020 8:54 am : link
In comment 14771218 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
that Rhule said unless you are willing to offer me (something similar) I am not coming to NY?

or

Did the Giants say if you don't come to NYC to meet us its a moot point?


Tuff - its your thread, what are the facts?


Jimmy, I thought based on media reports that your first scenario is what happened, perhaps more respectfully than you put it.

Now, I'm being corrected in that it may have been the Giants who said we aren't willing to go there, don't bother. If that's the case, then I have less faith in ownership than ever, although they should count their lucky stars for running into Judge (of BB putting him in front of their faces) as he seems like a winner.

If you ask your players to do whatever it takes to win, and you aren't willing to do whatever it takes just to listen to a guy you think might be the best guy, that seems like quite the hypocrisy, and perhaps an easy way to locate where the losers mentality that has permeated this organization for years now resides.
Just like the news of the request for Garret came out on Tuesday  
ron mexico : 1/10/2020 8:57 am : link
When in fact the request was put in on Sunday.

The request had nothing to do with Judge nor rhule.
RE: Again  
GiantTuff1 : 1/10/2020 8:57 am : link
In comment 14771214 Chris684 said:
Quote:
By Monday afternoon after having just met with Judge, NYG brass told Rhule there was a switch at the last minute and they would meet him in NJ rather than Texas.

That explains everything you need to know.


Can you spell out the significance for the posters on the board?
RE: Just like the news of the request for Garret came out on Tuesday  
Chris684 : 1/10/2020 8:58 am : link
In comment 14771326 ron mexico said:
Quote:
When in fact the request was put in on Sunday.

The request had nothing to do with Judge nor rhule.


Sure.
Really?  
Jim in Tampa : 1/10/2020 8:58 am : link
From the OP…

Quote:
Instead of being classy and following through on a commitment to meet with the Giants, and most importantly compete with Judge and work like hell to win the Giants over on the commitment part, Matt Rhule pulled a classic “I don’t want to hurt my brand” and instead tucked tail and took Tepper’s offer.

The fact he didn’t even feel confident, even when the chances may have been low, that he deserves that level of commitment, shows me the character of a man I do not want leading my football team. It shows me he’s more hype than substance.


So in other words, because the Giants chose Judge and not Ruhle, Rhule can now be described as

Not classy
Doesn’t follow through on a commitment
Doesn’t want to “work like hell”
Doesn’t want to hurt his brand
Doesn’t feel confident
Lacks character
Not a good leader
More hype than substance

I think most of us are excited about Judge and even those who are not are at least hopeful.

There’s no reason to create some narrative that paints Rhule as the villain, especially when we don't necessarily have all the details.
RE: RE: Maybe Rhule liked what he heard in Carolina  
GiantTuff1 : 1/10/2020 9:02 am : link
In comment 14771299 an_idol_mind said:
Quote:
In comment 14771171 GiantsRage2007 said:


Quote:


And was comfortable with the situation, owner, job, etc... and just picked them over us? His agent calls to do his due diligence but he picked Carolina. The End?



I'm 100% sure this is what happened.

As to the Giants' end, I think Mara painted a good picture when he was asked why he wouldn't give anybody a seven-year contract:



Quote:


For a new head coach in the National Football League, I just did not think that was a reasonable way to go. That’s all. And again, would we have talked about moving some parts around in that deal? Possibly, if we weren’t excited about the candidate we already had.



Right at the end of that, he makes it clear that the team might have tried to put together a decent offer to Rhule if they weren't sold on Judge.

This is very straightforward. The Panthers got their guy, Rhule got a team he wanted. The Giants got a guy they wanted. I know we'll go over "what-if" scenarios ad-nauseum, but at the moment I think both teams came away happy with how things worked out.


Good post especially that last parts.
RE: RE: Are there really sufficient details out there to ascertain  
Jimmy Googs : 1/10/2020 9:03 am : link
In comment 14771318 GiantTuff1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14771218 Jimmy Googs said:


Quote:


that Rhule said unless you are willing to offer me (something similar) I am not coming to NY?

or

Did the Giants say if you don't come to NYC to meet us its a moot point?


Tuff - its your thread, what are the facts?



Jimmy, I thought based on media reports that your first scenario is what happened, perhaps more respectfully than you put it.

Now, I'm being corrected in that it may have been the Giants who said we aren't willing to go there, don't bother. If that's the case, then I have less faith in ownership than ever, although they should count their lucky stars for running into Judge (of BB putting him in front of their faces) as he seems like a winner.

If you ask your players to do whatever it takes to win, and you aren't willing to do whatever it takes just to listen to a guy you think might be the best guy, that seems like quite the hypocrisy, and perhaps an easy way to locate where the losers mentality that has permeated this organization for years now resides.


I didn't mean to insinuate any disrespect in first scenario wording...just typed general theme. Presume Rhule or his agent was tactful but nevertheless.

But I do see your point and would expect the Giants to take advantage of meeting all viable candidates. It would have absolutely been better to listen to Rhule in every instance I can think of, unless Judge was on the clock with another offer and there was real risk to losing him. You and I are aligned there.

The Tisch transcript also speaks to Giant process being a bit "unchartered" with how they got to Judge so the tea-leaves would tell you our chucklehead Front Office still runs things in a less than desired manner.

Who honestly cares?  
Greg from LI : 1/10/2020 9:07 am : link
Carolina got their guy, the Giants got theirs. What's with all the tortured analysis over it?
RE: Who honestly cares?  
UConn4523 : 1/10/2020 9:08 am : link
In comment 14771362 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Carolina got their guy, the Giants got theirs. What's with all the tortured analysis over it?


I don't get it either. So little to go on anyway, impossible to be definitive about what happened - it doesn't matter.
RE: This is a complete misreading of the situation  
GiantTuff1 : 1/10/2020 9:12 am : link
In comment 14771288 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Instead of being classy and following through on a commitment to meet with the Giants, and most importantly compete with Judge and work like hell to win the Giants over on the commitment part, Matt Rhule pulled a classic “I don’t want to hurt my brand” and instead tucked tail and took Tepper’s offer.

If someone's offering you 7 years and almost 100 million dollars, you don't say "I'll think about it" and risk losing the offer. That's complete nonsense and the only way you could have the opinion that he should have walked out the door is if you are not actually considering the situation or youjust can't comprehend being in his shoes.

He did the classy thing: contacted the Giants to let them know of the situation and give them an opportunity.


I admit I may have been misinformed based on early media reports further up the thread, but I suppose we'll never know exactly.

The Giants should have still entertained Rhule if he was open to coming, unless the scenario in the OP was true in that Rhule was only going to negotiate from Carolina, then I stand by what I said.

If he loved the money and years from Carolina that much that he was able to forget all about the Giants, and happily take that offer, then God bless him. It was never meant to be.
Then move onto a NFT thread  
Jimmy Googs : 1/10/2020 9:12 am : link
and talk Yankees if this bothers some of you...
Or  
mdthedream : 1/10/2020 9:13 am : link
maybe he was afraid if he left Carolina was going to find someone else. Maybe he thought WOW! this is a crazy good offer and I would be nuts to leave it on the table.
There is a lot  
Matt in SGS : 1/10/2020 9:20 am : link
of stuff that we will never know for sure. Rhule was one of the Giants top targets. But there is also something to be said when a billionaire who is a new owner and wants to make a splash decides to fly to Waco that would signal to any team interested in Rhule that you would have to get into a bidding war to get him.

The old adage used to be "never argue with a man who buys ink by the barrel". The obvious insinuation being that in old media, if you had access to the newspapers, you owned opinion and they would win.

Tepper threw down an offer that was higher than almost any other you would see. It's not hard for Mara and Tisch to get the message that you would have to outspend Tepper to get Rhule and that was a fool's errand.

So you have the Giants knowing Tepper is in Texas and Judge comes in and blows the Giants away. They also know that he's got an offer from Miss St. which would make sense for him to take.

I wanted Rhule, I admit it at the start of this process. But if the Giants really wanted him, they should have gone down to see him before Tepper. Try to lock him up right away. The Giants canvassed, not trying to zero in on one candidate. Rhule is no sure thing and the Panthers literally gave him the keys. He got an offer that he had to take. His agent knew full well the Giants weren't going to go near it. It was basically a throwaway line to ask the Giants to match.

Let's see how it all plays out, but the fact that Rhule took the offer doesn't speak badly about him or Mara. Both acted in their best interest. Clearly the Giants interest in Rhule wasn't so stong that they felt they had to get to him before Tepper did. I liked what I saw from Judge. I knew the Giants wanted a younger coach this time around and one who was a "CEO". That's why I think they wanted Rhule because he was a head coach and program builder. But in looking at the choices of coordinators, a special teams coordinator makes the most sense of a CEO. Judge even said it, he said he's not calling the plays on offense, defense, or special teams. He's responsible for making sure that the team is situationally aware at all times. That has been missing since Coughlin was in his prime (and TC started to lose his fastball towards the end, let's all face it). No more McAdoo with his chinese menu or Shurmur looking on confused as Doug Pederson laughs at him across the field trying to figure out when to take a time out. Judge has what the Giants were looking for and that's why they jumped on him.
What a ridiculous OP.  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/10/2020 9:20 am : link
Aside from constructing a cockamamie story to explain the depths of Rhule's psyche and emotional makeup - things you haven't the faintest idea about in depth - you diction had me Google "synonyms for <overused>".

A useful exercise for me because I'd lost the word "clichéd" for a moment.

But with the synonym list I can now happily add the terms: hackneyed, jejune, platitudinal and a new favorite "bromidic" to your entire straw man argument degrading Rhule.

We are all (well almost all) enthused about the Giants' new, young, energetic, articulate, focused HC who delivered a hell of a self introduction to the NYC area media. Easily a batter introduction than the one Rhule provided to Carolina.

Bully for us but there's no need, point, or reason to now shred coach Rhule as some type of coward.

At best the OP is extremely sloppy thinking.

Get a grip.

RE: Then move onto a NFT thread  
Greg from LI : 1/10/2020 9:22 am : link
In comment 14771384 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
and talk Yankees if this bothers some of you...


Thanks for the advice, but I'll continue to do whatever the fuck I want.
Well then I guess  
Jimmy Googs : 1/10/2020 9:23 am : link
you honestly care some...
RE: There is a lot  
Chris684 : 1/10/2020 9:24 am : link
In comment 14771404 Matt in SGS said:
Quote:
of stuff that we will never know for sure. Rhule was one of the Giants top targets. But there is also something to be said when a billionaire who is a new owner and wants to make a splash decides to fly to Waco that would signal to any team interested in Rhule that you would have to get into a bidding war to get him.

The old adage used to be "never argue with a man who buys ink by the barrel". The obvious insinuation being that in old media, if you had access to the newspapers, you owned opinion and they would win.

Tepper threw down an offer that was higher than almost any other you would see. It's not hard for Mara and Tisch to get the message that you would have to outspend Tepper to get Rhule and that was a fool's errand.

So you have the Giants knowing Tepper is in Texas and Judge comes in and blows the Giants away. They also know that he's got an offer from Miss St. which would make sense for him to take.

I wanted Rhule, I admit it at the start of this process. But if the Giants really wanted him, they should have gone down to see him before Tepper. Try to lock him up right away. The Giants canvassed, not trying to zero in on one candidate. Rhule is no sure thing and the Panthers literally gave him the keys. He got an offer that he had to take. His agent knew full well the Giants weren't going to go near it. It was basically a throwaway line to ask the Giants to match.

Let's see how it all plays out, but the fact that Rhule took the offer doesn't speak badly about him or Mara. Both acted in their best interest. Clearly the Giants interest in Rhule wasn't so stong that they felt they had to get to him before Tepper did. I liked what I saw from Judge. I knew the Giants wanted a younger coach this time around and one who was a "CEO". That's why I think they wanted Rhule because he was a head coach and program builder. But in looking at the choices of coordinators, a special teams coordinator makes the most sense of a CEO. Judge even said it, he said he's not calling the plays on offense, defense, or special teams. He's responsible for making sure that the team is situationally aware at all times. That has been missing since Coughlin was in his prime (and TC started to lose his fastball towards the end, let's all face it). No more McAdoo with his chinese menu or Shurmur looking on confused as Doug Pederson laughs at him across the field trying to figure out when to take a time out. Judge has what the Giants were looking for and that's why they jumped on him.


Rock solid as usual.
There definitely is a lot of fan fic on this thread  
ron mexico : 1/10/2020 9:26 am : link
Some of you guys would do well on the Twilight message boards.
RE: This is a complete misreading of the situation  
Giants38 : 1/10/2020 9:28 am : link
In comment 14771288 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
Instead of being classy and following through on a commitment to meet with the Giants, and most importantly compete with Judge and work like hell to win the Giants over on the commitment part, Matt Rhule pulled a classic “I don’t want to hurt my brand” and instead tucked tail and took Tepper’s offer.

If someone's offering you 7 years and almost 100 million dollars, you don't say "I'll think about it" and risk losing the offer. That's complete nonsense and the only way you could have the opinion that he should have walked out the door is if you are not actually considering the situation or youjust can't comprehend being in his shoes.

He did the classy thing: contacted the Giants to let them know of the situation and give them an opportunity.


I think it is pretty clear that the Giants wanted Rhule. Whether Judge moved ahead of him or whatever, I don't know, but they certainly didn't tell Rhule enough of what he wanted to hear to get on the plane.

Mara made pretty clear they weren't giving a 7 year deal to any new coach, so that could have been at least one holdup. People are also forgetting - or just ignoring - that Rhule reportedly has complete control of the roster in Carolina. Mara may have said the 7 year commitment, combined with the roster control, was too much.

I really don't think this was a case of Rhule being scared. He had clear interest in Carolina - he declined an interview with the Browns because he didn't want to go there - and they did what they had to do to get him to leave Baylor and, apparently, not go to the Giants. Given the way he's conducted himself in interviews and press conferences that I have seen, I have no reason to believe Rhule would have flopped in his Giants' interview. But he wasn't getting on a plane and risking potentially $70 million just to go through with his interview.

Dream job or not, I can tell you that if Tepper told me you can get on that plane, but if you do we are moving on and this offer is off the table, then you better be certain that you are getting at least something comparable up here. It has been widely reported that Gettleman scared off potential candidates, and the Giants' refusal to match money, combined with the requirement that he report to Gettleman, obviously drove him to take the Carolina job. And the Carolina job was appealing to him, because otherwise he could have walked away and just gone back to Baylor.

People can sit here and scream until they are blue in the face that he was disrespectful (disagreed) or that we are a "cornerstone franchise". Sorry, but you lose cornerstone franchise status when you are a doormat year after year, as we have been the last three seasons, in particular.
RE: Well then I guess  
Greg from LI : 1/10/2020 9:29 am : link
In comment 14771410 Jimmy Googs said:
Quote:
you honestly care some...


Spending less than a minute typing an opinion - not reasoned analysis, but an opinion - is hardly evidence of "caring". The thread's on the top, so I saw. BFD.
I hope that the next time I  
Dnew15 : 1/10/2020 9:31 am : link
see Matt Rhule's name on BBI is 3 yrs from now when he gets fired and everyone is talking about how we dodged a bullet with him and we're all so glad that the NYG went with Joe Judge.
RE: I think Tepper gave him an offer.....take it or leave it.  
Bramton1 : 1/10/2020 9:34 am : link
In comment 14771130 George from PA said:
Quote:
70 million is a life changing amount.

So not sure...how that puts in question his competitive nature.

Its called....a bird in the hand....


I don't buy that. If the Panthers were willing to fork over $70 million and 7 years for Rhule, then they clearly loved him. And I don't think for a second that if Rhule had gone to NY, taken the interview, and that night, called Carolina back and said, "I want to coach for you," they would have said "Bye Felicia." Please.
Re: matching the deal  
Ben in Tampa : 1/10/2020 9:37 am : link
Just for point of reference, there are only six current NFL coaches who have coached their team longer than 7 years. There are two current NFL coaches who will have coached 7 years at the end of next season.
These threads are exhausting  
bhill410 : 1/10/2020 9:38 am : link
The dudes agent called up and said my client has a contract in this ballpark, is this something that you would ever consider. If the answer is NO then why would either party waste their time. If the answer is YES then he would have shown up to the interview and gone through the process.

Why is this so tough for people to understand? We have likely all been in positions where there are two jobs interested and 1 is offering X amount and if the second one has a salary limit of XX why even waste everyone's time?
RE: RE: There is a lot  
Giants38 : 1/10/2020 9:45 am : link
In comment 14771413 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 14771404 Matt in SGS said:


Quote:


of stuff that we will never know for sure. Rhule was one of the Giants top targets. But there is also something to be said when a billionaire who is a new owner and wants to make a splash decides to fly to Waco that would signal to any team interested in Rhule that you would have to get into a bidding war to get him.

The old adage used to be "never argue with a man who buys ink by the barrel". The obvious insinuation being that in old media, if you had access to the newspapers, you owned opinion and they would win.

Tepper threw down an offer that was higher than almost any other you would see. It's not hard for Mara and Tisch to get the message that you would have to outspend Tepper to get Rhule and that was a fool's errand.

So you have the Giants knowing Tepper is in Texas and Judge comes in and blows the Giants away. They also know that he's got an offer from Miss St. which would make sense for him to take.

I wanted Rhule, I admit it at the start of this process. But if the Giants really wanted him, they should have gone down to see him before Tepper. Try to lock him up right away. The Giants canvassed, not trying to zero in on one candidate. Rhule is no sure thing and the Panthers literally gave him the keys. He got an offer that he had to take. His agent knew full well the Giants weren't going to go near it. It was basically a throwaway line to ask the Giants to match.

Let's see how it all plays out, but the fact that Rhule took the offer doesn't speak badly about him or Mara. Both acted in their best interest. Clearly the Giants interest in Rhule wasn't so stong that they felt they had to get to him before Tepper did. I liked what I saw from Judge. I knew the Giants wanted a younger coach this time around and one who was a "CEO". That's why I think they wanted Rhule because he was a head coach and program builder. But in looking at the choices of coordinators, a special teams coordinator makes the most sense of a CEO. Judge even said it, he said he's not calling the plays on offense, defense, or special teams. He's responsible for making sure that the team is situationally aware at all times. That has been missing since Coughlin was in his prime (and TC started to lose his fastball towards the end, let's all face it). No more McAdoo with his chinese menu or Shurmur looking on confused as Doug Pederson laughs at him across the field trying to figure out when to take a time out. Judge has what the Giants were looking for and that's why they jumped on him.



Rock solid as usual.


I have little doubt that Matt's take on this is accurate. The Giants were probably driven to Judge by a number of factors, including the more CEO presence. And he certainly was impressive at his presser. I also have little doubt they expedited their offer to him once they: 1) realized two of their top candidates in McCarthy and Rhule were off the board; and 2) Judge received the offer from Mississippi State to coach there. The Giants have a history of this, most notably rushing to get McAdoo when the Eagles were reportedly pursuing him and/or Coughlin.

If their reasons for not greeting Rhule in Waco - or even going to Cabo - to get him are they wanted to canvass all the candidates, then it is particularly odd that they would pursue Judge like that, as they had yet to even speak with McDaniels. The timing is also a bit questionable, as we don't know if Judge had even met with Tisch yet, and the Giants announced their intentions seemingly within minutes of the announcement that Rhule said "goodbye to you" on Tuesday.

Judge may have blown them away at his interview - and the fact that they were the only team to even request an interview with him speaks highly of the fact that the team saw something they liked from the start - but there were clearly other factors at play here.

I am not falling for Mara's company line that we loved Judge but had Rhule scheduled and were doing the right thing by following through with him, too. How is that any different than McDaniels, who the team was scheduled to interview on Wednesday? Maybe the team knew something we don't, as it has been speculated McD would not have come here anyway (I have no doubt that is accurate, as he would have spit in the face of giving roster control to Gettleman).
RE: These threads are exhausting  
Mad Mike : 1/10/2020 9:47 am : link
In comment 14771442 bhill410 said:
Quote:
The dudes agent called up and said my client has a contract in this ballpark, is this something that you would ever consider. If the answer is NO then why would either party waste their time. If the answer is YES then he would have shown up to the interview and gone through the process.

Why is this so tough for people to understand? We have likely all been in positions where there are two jobs interested and 1 is offering X amount and if the second one has a salary limit of XX why even waste everyone's time?

You're clearly right, but the bolded question seems self-explanatory if you've spent much time here.
The thing both sides did wrong was let Carolina go first  
Eric on Li : 1/10/2020 10:13 am : link
I say both sides because even if the "dream job" rumors are overstated, he still clearly had some level of interest in NY even after the Panthers made their offer plus the interest in the Jet job last year. Also Rhule has preached big time about being selective and not jumping at the first offer he got only to do exactly that. Who knows, maybe Mara/Giants would have blown him away even more than Tepper?

On the Giants side they made a not so well calculated decision to try to sell him by having him come visit the facility. I think they were looking to give themselves the "don't let him leave the facility" option. Instead they never got a chance to talk to him so that didn't work out.

So in the future, I think there's a chance both sides end up with some "what ifs".

If Rhule is the next Pete Carroll, the Giants will always wonder "what if we just went to Waco and spoke to him first?"

If Daniel Jones is the next Peyton Manning while Rhule struggles to replace Cam Newton, you have to think he too will wonder "what if I just skipped those 4 days in mexico and talked to the Giants?"

Judge has been extremely impressive in a lot of ways (not just the PC) but if it were me making the decision I still would have liked to have an apples to apples comparison of meeting them both and hearing their plans.
RE: RE: Why do people keep repeating something so silly?  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/10/2020 10:13 am : link
In comment 14771193 GiantTuff1 said:
Quote:
In comment 14771123 jcn56 said:


Quote:


Of course Rhule didn't expect him to match the salary without speaking to him. What Mara was told was the offer on the table - which, any candidate with a solid offer *should* tell you about before interviewing, so that you don't have an awkward conversation later if you like the candidate but have no intentions of meeting his salary demands.

Why not just leave it at they liked Judge better, or at least enough to suggest that they didn't want to take a chance interviewing Rhule?



So which is it?

I thought it was the other way around.

If Mara is the one rejecting the Carolina offer while Rhule was still willing to come interview, then he's the idiot and not following through on the process. Mara's answer should have been "we don't know if we'll match, we haven't even spoken to you yet."

If it was otherwise, then stumbling upon Judge is an even bigger blind squirrel situation that first thought.

Serious question - have you ever negotiated a job offer with multiple potential employers in play?

What Rhule did was not sinister. It's highly doubtful that he asked for the Giants to match salaries without an interview. It's much more likely, as others have said, that he informed them of the offer he had, which - given the Giants connection to him as a previous employer and probably on very good terms - may have even been something that had been communicated to him by the Giants before the Carolina interview even happened. Is it outlandish to think that when they scheduled Rhule's interview and knew that he was going to meet with Tepper first, that they may have said, "if you receive an offer, please let us know so we can discuss and plan accordingly" or something to that effect?

So Rhule gave them the courtesy of letting them know that he had an insane offer on the table, and gave them an out so as not to waste anyone's time. If the Giants were never going to come close to a similar offer, it was going to be hard for Rhule to choose them over the Panthers no matter how well the interview went for either party (or both). That's not a douche move. It's not asking for a firm offer with a salary match before interviewing. It's a "this is where things currently stand, and I know this offer that I already have is enormous - if it's completely out of line with what you were considering for this position, I'd prefer to let you move on to other candidates and I'll accept this offer."

It so happened that the Giants were already enamored with Judge at that point, so it became an easy decision for them. If they had been unimpressed with their previously interviewed candidates, who knows if they end up playing it differently. But they weren't going to match that offer even if Rhule knocked their socks off in the interview, and they already were leaning toward Judge anyway, so why bother?

This isn't that difficult to understand, as long as you take a break from slurping up the pro-Giants/anti-Rhule spin surrounding the scenario as it has been presented in the NY media.
RE: RE: RE: RE: So your theory is that after meeting with Judge on Monday  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/10/2020 10:17 am : link
In comment 14771304 Chris684 said:
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In comment 14771295 ron mexico said:


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In comment 14771276 Chris684 said:


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In comment 14771260 ron mexico said:


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They called Rhule Monday afternoon to move their meeting the next day?

I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous.

They wanted him in the building to do the hard sell and it just happened to be reported on Monday.




They loved Judge and still wanted to meet Rhule but no longer felt the need to go to him.

And your theory is what?

They moved it to NJ to pitch the hard sell? What did they want to do before that? Not pitch him a hard sell?

Brilliant logic.



My theory is Rhule was their #1 target and they wanted to have the the interview in NJ. The push to do it here was made before they met with Judge and had nothing to do with him.



You would have to twist the timeline around of what we know was reported and when for your theory to prove out.

Your timeline is based on the timestamp of tweets that reported it, not any evidence of when the reported events actually happened.
Another thing to consider is this - the Giants knew Rhule  
jcn56 : 1/10/2020 11:02 am : link
he wasn't a complete unknown to them. His plans on what he'd do as Giants HC might have been, but the guy worked in the building for a year, with a lot of the same people who are still there.

Knowing that - Rhule still interviewed with Carolina first. The Giants had to know that Tepper, if he was interested, might not let Rhule leave the building.

Which could imply one of two things - one, that the Giants knew there was a good chance they'd lose out on him and didn't apply more pressure, or two that Rhule wasn't as hot on the Giants job as had been rumored, and was just using them as leverage against Tepper.

Either way - without knowing more, it's all just guessing.
Mara said we are not giving anyone 7 years  
Reale01 : 1/10/2020 11:02 am : link
He also said that something could have been worked out. It sound like it was not about the money for the Giants.

They liked Judge (I can see why). They would have preferred to complete the process by interviewing Rhule, but ultimately determined that it was best to take the bird in hand rather than negotiate terms with someone they had not even interviewed.
For anybody calling Rhule classless for not interviewing,  
an_idol_mind : 1/10/2020 11:09 am : link
where does that put the Giants? They had McDaniels lined up and canceled with him. They probably gave Garrett some false hope by requesting an interview, but canceled with him.

Whether you're a candidate or an employer, when you know you know. Once two sides have a definite match, there's no point in wasting other people's time. It sucks to be the person called up and left in the lurch, but it's better than going through a sham of an interview that wastes everybody's time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So your theory is that after meeting with Judge on Monday  
Chris684 : 1/10/2020 11:13 am : link
In comment 14771531 Gatorade Dunk said:
Quote:
In comment 14771304 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 14771295 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 14771276 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 14771260 ron mexico said:


Quote:


They called Rhule Monday afternoon to move their meeting the next day?

I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous.

They wanted him in the building to do the hard sell and it just happened to be reported on Monday.




They loved Judge and still wanted to meet Rhule but no longer felt the need to go to him.

And your theory is what?

They moved it to NJ to pitch the hard sell? What did they want to do before that? Not pitch him a hard sell?

Brilliant logic.



My theory is Rhule was their #1 target and they wanted to have the the interview in NJ. The push to do it here was made before they met with Judge and had nothing to do with him.



You would have to twist the timeline around of what we know was reported and when for your theory to prove out.


Your timeline is based on the timestamp of tweets that reported it, not any evidence of when the reported events actually happened.


Well John just said on FAN that by end of day Monday they knew Joe was their guy. Could of had Matt here on Tuesday but didn't feel the need.

So unless he's lying that pretty much settles it.
RE: Another thing to consider is this - the Giants knew Rhule  
Eric on Li : 1/10/2020 11:33 am : link
In comment 14771615 jcn56 said:
Quote:
he wasn't a complete unknown to them. His plans on what he'd do as Giants HC might have been, but the guy worked in the building for a year, with a lot of the same people who are still there.

Knowing that - Rhule still interviewed with Carolina first. The Giants had to know that Tepper, if he was interested, might not let Rhule leave the building.

Which could imply one of two things - one, that the Giants knew there was a good chance they'd lose out on him and didn't apply more pressure, or two that Rhule wasn't as hot on the Giants job as had been rumored, and was just using them as leverage against Tepper.

Either way - without knowing more, it's all just guessing.


I think the bolded scenario is highly likely because I'd almost guarantee they knew the $ cost ahead of time if Carolina offered. There's no way Carolina didn't float the type of offer they are considering for "the right guy" ahead of their interview to his agent. And for that agent to be doing his job correctly that would mean everyone else in the bidding knew what was being dangled. I think the chances the potential sticker price wasn't well known to all is remote.

If that's the case I'd speculate the Giants reaction would be to sit back and see what happens with Carolina vs. preemptively get into a competitive bidding war.

I don't know what the odds were but surely there was a chance Tepper didn't get entirely sold on Rhule and still wanted to interview McDaniels - in which case the Giants get him in the building with a chance to beat Judge or not, and if so probably without having to go to a 7 year deal.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: So your theory is that after meeting with Judge on Monday  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/10/2020 11:40 am : link
In comment 14771644 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 14771531 Gatorade Dunk said:


Quote:


In comment 14771304 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 14771295 ron mexico said:


Quote:


In comment 14771276 Chris684 said:


Quote:


In comment 14771260 ron mexico said:


Quote:


They called Rhule Monday afternoon to move their meeting the next day?

I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous.

They wanted him in the building to do the hard sell and it just happened to be reported on Monday.




They loved Judge and still wanted to meet Rhule but no longer felt the need to go to him.

And your theory is what?

They moved it to NJ to pitch the hard sell? What did they want to do before that? Not pitch him a hard sell?

Brilliant logic.



My theory is Rhule was their #1 target and they wanted to have the the interview in NJ. The push to do it here was made before they met with Judge and had nothing to do with him.



You would have to twist the timeline around of what we know was reported and when for your theory to prove out.


Your timeline is based on the timestamp of tweets that reported it, not any evidence of when the reported events actually happened.



Well John just said on FAN that by end of day Monday they knew Joe was their guy. Could of had Matt here on Tuesday but didn't feel the need.

So unless he's lying that pretty much settles it.

Mara does have a bit of a tendency to play the PR game in interviews - I wouldn't take his word as gospel. Remember, this is the same John Mara who signed off on the Eli situation in 2017 and then acted as though it happened behind his back when the fan backlash was more than he bargained for.

If they knew Judge was their guy by the end of the day on Monday, they could have canceled with Rhule rather than ask him to change the location of the interview. And they'd almost certainly have leaked it in a couple of places to own the message rather than having it come out after Rhule agreed to terms with Tepper.

Personally, I think Judge was the leader in the clubhouse when the Rhule conversation happened Monday night, but they probably hadn't eliminated Rhule yet. But when Rhule notified them of the offer he had from Tepper, they may have taken that as serendipity that they didn't have to even worry about anyone else but the guy who had already won them over in Judge. Maybe semantics, but I think they were at least willing to consider the possibility of Rhule beating out Judge right up until they determined that even if Rhule did wow them, it was unlikely to be a 7 year contract's worth of wow, and certainly not worth the risk that they could lose the guy they already preferred in Judge.
Yeah I have no doubt Mara is spinning this now  
jcn56 : 1/10/2020 11:47 am : link
otherwise, you're not sold on Judge, with the possibility of him taking a college HC job if you don't act quickly enough, and tell Rhule 'hey, if you're down to come here tomorrow we can still talk'.

People keep pointing out that the public statements don't matter, but they miss the obvious part - they matter to the Giants. If they didn't, Mara wouldn't bother to say things like this.

And as much as they matter, the Giants failed miserably at providing some air cover for their coaching search. It's just another example, no matter how small, of how the Giants manage to fuck up in so many different ways. They don't need to do any single thing better - they need to organizationally get better at everything they do, and fast.
The guy went on vacation to Mexico  
Vanzetti : 1/10/2020 12:12 pm : link
During the heat of the coach hiring period

And I know people here were defending him, saying he put his family first. He couldn’t have waited a month?

Plus, I think it’s great when people put their family first but I don’t want them as HC. It’s a job that requires 100 hours per week During the season. One of the reasons there are very few good HCs




it went down the way it did  
mdc1 : 1/10/2020 12:19 pm : link
because both teams knew his buy price. You think his agent just walked him into those interviews without that data being known? and his buyout? Maybe they wanted Carolina to sign him.
The biggest piece of this puzzle  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/10/2020 12:23 pm : link
I think is that the Giants liked Judge more than they anticipated.

I was intrigued by Rhule, but honestly if he was the hire I would be a little more nervous than I am today.
Its Fair to say  
upnyg : 1/10/2020 2:17 pm : link
Rhule took the offer he wanted. Well done! Would he have come to the Giants for more money, probably.

Did Judge wow the Giants? Yes. Is he better than Rhule? Time will tell.

The fact that Judge did better than expected, they liked him....and Rhule's demands were too high is why Judge is here.

Most of us would have liked him to show for the interview, but this is business.

Good luck to both! Go Giants.
RE: RE: There is a lot  
djm : 1/12/2020 12:35 pm : link
In comment 14771413 Chris684 said:
Quote:
In comment 14771404 Matt in SGS said:


Quote:


of stuff that we will never know for sure. Rhule was one of the Giants top targets. But there is also something to be said when a billionaire who is a new owner and wants to make a splash decides to fly to Waco that would signal to any team interested in Rhule that you would have to get into a bidding war to get him.

The old adage used to be "never argue with a man who buys ink by the barrel". The obvious insinuation being that in old media, if you had access to the newspapers, you owned opinion and they would win.

Tepper threw down an offer that was higher than almost any other you would see. It's not hard for Mara and Tisch to get the message that you would have to outspend Tepper to get Rhule and that was a fool's errand.

So you have the Giants knowing Tepper is in Texas and Judge comes in and blows the Giants away. They also know that he's got an offer from Miss St. which would make sense for him to take.

I wanted Rhule, I admit it at the start of this process. But if the Giants really wanted him, they should have gone down to see him before Tepper. Try to lock him up right away. The Giants canvassed, not trying to zero in on one candidate. Rhule is no sure thing and the Panthers literally gave him the keys. He got an offer that he had to take. His agent knew full well the Giants weren't going to go near it. It was basically a throwaway line to ask the Giants to match.

Let's see how it all plays out, but the fact that Rhule took the offer doesn't speak badly about him or Mara. Both acted in their best interest. Clearly the Giants interest in Rhule wasn't so stong that they felt they had to get to him before Tepper did. I liked what I saw from Judge. I knew the Giants wanted a younger coach this time around and one who was a "CEO". That's why I think they wanted Rhule because he was a head coach and program builder. But in looking at the choices of coordinators, a special teams coordinator makes the most sense of a CEO. Judge even said it, he said he's not calling the plays on offense, defense, or special teams. He's responsible for making sure that the team is situationally aware at all times. That has been missing since Coughlin was in his prime (and TC started to lose his fastball towards the end, let's all face it). No more McAdoo with his chinese menu or Shurmur looking on confused as Doug Pederson laughs at him across the field trying to figure out when to take a time out. Judge has what the Giants were looking for and that's why they jumped on him.



Rock solid as usual.


Seconded. I should just follow up all of Matt’s post with an agreed and call it a day.
RE: Why do people keep repeating something so silly?  
santacruzom : 1/12/2020 12:44 pm : link
In comment 14771123 jcn56 said:
Quote:
Of course Rhule didn't expect him to match the salary without speaking to him. What Mara was told was the offer on the table - which, any candidate with a solid offer *should* tell you about before interviewing, so that you don't have an awkward conversation later if you like the candidate but have no intentions of meeting his salary demands.

Why not just leave it at they liked Judge better, or at least enough to suggest that they didn't want to take a chance interviewing Rhule?


Yeah, it's as if these people who actually believe Rhule expected a salary committment from the Giants prior to an interview have never had a job before.
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