There is a lot of talk of Mara not wanting to match the 7 year commitment to Rhule, and at the surface that bothers me as I believe in “doing whatever it takes” to get the “very best” and have similar philosophical views to Terps on the coach being the most important part of the team equation. Paying a coach what would amount to the 4th-5th most of any player on the roster — the commitment seems pretty small by comparison.
What I don’t think is being talked about enough is this — I do not necessarily believe Mara would not have matched the offer, but he wasn’t going to match such a large commitment blind. Who here would purchase a car sight unseen? Especially when the dealer says he has another buyer in the mix, and he’s rushing you on the phone? If the Giants made that deal and it didn’t work out again, the PR storm around incompetence would make what’s gone on the last few years seem like small potatoes, and what of hope after that for Giants fans? You think our faith is low now?
But here is the most important part for me. Matt Rhule had every opportunity to come to the Giants and sell himself. He had every opportunity to come here, essentially compete, and win over Mara and Tisch like he would have to do with a team week in and week out. Who is to say Rhule, if he is as good as others say he is (and he thinks of himself), could not have walked in there and blew the doors off the Giants to the extent Mara and Tisch did something unprecedented and gave him that 7 year $62 million deal. You would think for a coach of his hype, that’s exactly what one would have expected, especially in a fight for your dream job.
But that is not what happened.
Instead of being classy and following through on a commitment to meet with the Giants, and most importantly compete with Judge and work like hell to win the Giants over on the commitment part, Matt Rhule pulled a classic “I don’t want to hurt my brand” and instead tucked tail and took Tepper’s offer.
The fact he didn’t even feel confident, even when the chances may have been low, that he deserves that level of commitment, shows me the character of a man I do not want leading my football team. It shows me he’s more hype than substance.
I would have expected him to say F that, I’m winning this thing, showing them why I need 6-7 years, and winning. Is that not the same mentality needed to win leading a football team? But he didn’t do that. Worse, he didn’t even try.
Mara, and the Giants brass I’m sure saw and felt that, but this time they had an Ace up their sleeve with Judge.
Tisch said after the PC “everything happens for a reason”. I’m beginning to believe the Giants may have been very fortuitous, and Tepper was just the right foil that allowed to Giants to see Rhule’s true colors, beyond the preacher salesman.
Bottom line is the Giants made the right decision, even if it was a blind squirrel finding a nut. I applaud them.
And it was an easy decision even if the two would have squared off, but Rhule made it that much easier.
Why not just leave it at they liked Judge better, or at least enough to suggest that they didn't want to take a chance interviewing Rhule?
I still think the Giants weren’t expecting to be blown away by Judge which to me is the big wildcard when trying to assess this. If they did meet with Rhule who would they honestly like more? After yesterday I’m thinking Judge, making the money part matter far less.
So not sure...how that puts in question his competitive nature.
Its called....a bird in the hand....
Why not just leave it at they liked Judge better, or at least enough to suggest that they didn't want to take a chance interviewing Rhule?
This. He got a great offer and did the Giants the courtesy of telling him what it was and didn’t want to waste their time if they didn’t want to be competitive with it.
The worse move is showing up and then telling them you have an enormous offer on the table after the fact.
There is this spin that he insisted the Giants offer him the same contract without an interview. That is nonsense. Why would he want a job without interviewing the employer? He asked them if they would match should they select him. The Giants said no.
Sorry everyone, but there are no villains in that story.
Of the 32 turned down Cleveland so clearly some he did not want
Was offer 7 years with huge money plus they covered his buyout
Let the guy go. He’s a good coach. Giants got a better one. Our guy has coached NFL players for years now. He’s got SB rings. He’s younger, yet more polished. And he’s going to hire a much better coaching staff.
If the Giants had something that Rhule wanted but Carolina wasn't giving, he would have come in. But the Panthers gave him everything he wanted and the Giants weren't going to match that. Why waste everybody's time, especially when he has a staff to assemble?
Rhule played things fine. There's no bad guy in this situation - it's all just business.
At this moment NO ONE knows whether Rhule or Judge will work out as NFL head coaches. There is no way we can say:
"we got the right guy" or "we F'd up with not going after Rhule? Time will tell. So far, step 1 looks promising for Judge. But, lots more steps.
Nobody knows what will happen but, I am pleased with Judge so far and I am highmy optmistic things here are finally headed in the right direction.
Then Joe Judge comes into the building and does so well in the interview that he actually moves slightly ahead of Rhule as a possibility, but not to the point they decide not to interview Rhule.
Then comes the phone call from Rhule,.... see ya!
By the way this is exactly what happen according to the Giants Insider Chris Bisignano, whom I have found to be a very accurate source for Giants information all year.
I know it doesn’t fit the narrative that the Giants because of Gettleman were left holding the bag again, but real good possibility that just isn’t the case.
I agree with him. An unproven coach gets a guaranteed pay check for 7 years? Only BB would get that deal.
Your comment about Rhule being the best... really?
If the Giants had something that Rhule wanted but Carolina wasn't giving, he would have come in. But the Panthers gave him everything he wanted and the Giants weren't going to match that. Why waste everybody's time, especially when he has a staff to assemble?
Rhule played things fine. There's no bad guy in this situation - it's all just business.
Yes, I agree as have several others. No need to belittle anyone in either organization. Tepper made an offer that Rhule could not refuse. Rhule's agent called to tell the Giants of the numbers and asked if they would consider matching. The Giants declined knowing they had Judge.
Then Joe Judge comes into the building and does so well in the interview that he actually moves slightly ahead of Rhule as a possibility, but not to the point they decide not to interview Rhule.
Then comes the phone call from Rhule,.... see ya!
By the way this is exactly what happen according to the Giants Insider Chris Bisignano, whom I have found to be a very accurate source for Giants information all year.
I know it doesn’t fit the narrative that the Giants because of Gettleman were left holding the bag again, but real good possibility that just isn’t the case.
What "narrative" are you talking about? The people who insist the Giants lost out on Rhule say that they did so because of money.
Ok now I'm done.
But when they likely said we wouldn't do that kind of offer for ANYONE (just like Mara reiterated yesterday) , Rhule knew the offer would be substantially less of a commitment from us no matter what.
That's a very different picture than what is being painted.
Lol they preferred Cano but didn't want the commitment. Lets hope Joe is more like Aaron and less like Jacoby.
Depending on how successful Rhule is at Carolina, this may be a whole new era in coach’s salaries and slow down the coaching carousel. It is going to be hard to fire a HC halfway through the season if you committed to $60 million. There are going to be some complicated buyout clauses in new contracts.
Depending on how successful Rhule is at Carolina, this may be a whole new era in coach’s salaries and slow down the coaching carousel. It is going to be hard to fire a HC halfway through the season if you committed to $60 million. There are going to be some complicated buyout clauses in new contracts.
Simply amazing he was only thinking of himself with that decision...selfish prick.
Depending on how successful Rhule is at Carolina, this may be a whole new era in coach’s salaries and slow down the coaching carousel. It is going to be hard to fire a HC halfway through the season if you committed to $60 million. There are going to be some complicated buyout clauses in new contracts.
C'mon, any salary negotiation is a shakedown if you look at it that way.
Any prospective employer will use every bit of leverage available to them to keep the salary lower, and any prospective hire will do the same to gain every extra bit of salary they can.
The Giants were on a timeline and had interviewed several candidates they liked. Rhule and Carolina also had deadlines, and had discussed a salary structure. You really think it would have been better in any way if Rhule had interviewed and then decided to tell the Giants they'd have to fork over $60M over 7 years or he was going back to Carolina? In that scenario, they likely lose Judge to Miss as well.
The supply of crazy pills in the northeast is probably running low at the moment.
Why not just leave it at they liked Judge better, or at least enough to suggest that they didn't want to take a chance interviewing Rhule?
So which is it?
I thought it was the other way around.
If Mara is the one rejecting the Carolina offer while Rhule was still willing to come interview, then he's the idiot and not following through on the process. Mara's answer should have been "we don't know if we'll match, we haven't even spoken to you yet."
If it was otherwise, then stumbling upon Judge is an even bigger blind squirrel situation that first thought.
I still think the Giants weren’t expecting to be blown away by Judge which to me is the big wildcard when trying to assess this. If they did meet with Rhule who would they honestly like more? After yesterday I’m thinking Judge, making the money part matter far less.
It's true we don't know the factors. Tepper may have allowed Rhule to make one phone call, who knows. But Rhule still has the right to say respectfully, I did have a meeting scheduled. It may take balls to do that though, and I guess we'll never know.
The rest I agree with.
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With Matt Rhule high on their list of candidates, maybe number 1, but not to the point of certainty he was the right guy that they wouldn’t interview anyone else; thus the extensive search.
Then Joe Judge comes into the building and does so well in the interview that he actually moves slightly ahead of Rhule as a possibility, but not to the point they decide not to interview Rhule.
Then comes the phone call from Rhule,.... see ya!
By the way this is exactly what happen according to the Giants Insider Chris Bisignano, whom I have found to be a very accurate source for Giants information all year.
I know it doesn’t fit the narrative that the Giants because of Gettleman were left holding the bag again, but real good possibility that just isn’t the case.
What "narrative" are you talking about? The people who insist the Giants lost out on Rhule say that they did so because of money.
There was a narrative about Gettleman not specific to Rhule, my bad. But the point remains they didn’t necessarily lose out on Rhule because of money. They made a decision they liked Judge better, or certainly enough to not meet Rhule s demands.
That explains everything you need to know.
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Of course Rhule didn't expect him to match the salary without speaking to him. What Mara was told was the offer on the table - which, any candidate with a solid offer *should* tell you about before interviewing, so that you don't have an awkward conversation later if you like the candidate but have no intentions of meeting his salary demands.
Why not just leave it at they liked Judge better, or at least enough to suggest that they didn't want to take a chance interviewing Rhule?
So which is it?
I thought it was the other way around.
If Mara is the one rejecting the Carolina offer while Rhule was still willing to come interview, then he's the idiot and not following through on the process. Mara's answer should have been "we don't know if we'll match, we haven't even spoken to you yet."
If it was otherwise, then stumbling upon Judge is an even bigger blind squirrel situation that first thought.
For a second, let's assume that all that was discussed was money - 'Hey John, my guy is willing to come to you to interview, but just know that he's got an offer on the table for $60M/7 from Tepper'.
You're Mara - you just interviewed a bunch of guys, and you liked them - one more than the others - and found at least one viable HC candidate in that bunch. He's also being rumored as the frontrunner to the Miss HC position.
You like Rhule - and thought he was your guy, before even speaking to him, based on feedback from people in football and first hand experience from the year he was in the building.
So you have a decision to make - bring in Rhule, and chance matching a very hefty contract - and the possibility that he still goes back to Carolina (either because of other factors, or possibly leveraging the offer and getting Carolina to pay up more).
Bring in Rhule - and risk the candidate you really liked as a fallback going to Miss. You have the risk that both Rhule and Judge end up elsewhere, and you have to pick from the rest of the field.
And that's before getting into the control structure - maybe Rhule wasn't comfortable with not having as much control in NY than in Carolina.
These things don't happen in a vacuum, and it's not just money. I don't think the Giants were played here, although I do think (and have repeatedly said) that the Giants should have done a bit of PR for air cover.
or
Did the Giants say if you don't come to NYC to meet us its a moot point?
Tuff - its your thread, what are the facts?
I agree with him. An unproven coach gets a guaranteed pay check for 7 years? Only BB would get that deal.
Your comment about Rhule being the best... really?
So then the flaw remains with Mara. I don't care if he is asking for 15 years, maybe he has legitimate points as to why. Why not at least listen?
I thought it was that Rhule provided some sort of take it or leave it, but if he was willing to come in and was not allowed to because Mara and the Giants created a ceiling for where they were willing to go to, then I apologize for being misinformed on the situation / post, and I would condemn Mara for not completing the process.
We begged the owners not to have their mind made up on coaches prior to the search. Well, don't have your mind made up on numbers either.
And I wasn't saying Rhule is the best, I'm saying in general if that is who the Giants thought was "the best", then go get him.
That said, I'm happy with how things worked out with Judge and I think he very well would have won the job regardless.
Then Joe Judge comes into the building and does so well in the interview that he actually moves slightly ahead of Rhule as a possibility, but not to the point they decide not to interview Rhule.
Then comes the phone call from Rhule,.... see ya!
By the way this is exactly what happen according to the Giants Insider Chris Bisignano, whom I have found to be a very accurate source for Giants information all year.
I know it doesn’t fit the narrative that the Giants because of Gettleman were left holding the bag again, but real good possibility that just isn’t the case.
This makes sense.
That explains everything you need to know.
Where was it reported that the giants were ever traveling to Waco?
Is this serious? Tepper allows him to make one phone call? He’s not a prisoner, and he didn’t just offer that contract to someone who he doesn’t trust with a cell phone.
Rhule was offered everything he wanted by the Panthers and out of respect and courtesy he called the Giants to see if it made sense for him to still come in and interview in light of that. The Giants said no.
“It makes only one phone call or it gets the house again!!!”
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By Monday afternoon after having just met with Judge, NYG brass told Rhule there was a switch at the last minute and they would meet him in NJ rather than Texas.
That explains everything you need to know.
Where was it reported that the giants were ever traveling to Waco?
There is a whole thread on this from Monday. Schefter reported this around 6pm on ESPN.
@WBG84: According to @AdamSchefter on ESPN, the Giants pressed to have Matt Rhule change his meeting with them Tuesday from Waco, Texas to East Rutherford, New Jersey. #GiantsPride
What you said made a lot of sense and you have won me over to that line of reasoning. Thanks for sharing it. Cheers.
I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous.
They wanted him in the building to do the hard sell and it just happened to be reported on Monday.
For a second, let's assume that all that was discussed was money - 'Hey John, my guy is willing to come to you to interview, but just know that he's got an offer on the table for $60M/7 from Tepper'.
You're Mara - you just interviewed a bunch of guys, and you liked them - one more than the others - and found at least one viable HC candidate in that bunch. He's also being rumored as the frontrunner to the Miss HC position.
You like Rhule - and thought he was your guy, before even speaking to him, based on feedback from people in football and first hand experience from the year he was in the building.
So you have a decision to make - bring in Rhule, and chance matching a very hefty contract - and the possibility that he still goes back to Carolina (either because of other factors, or possibly leveraging the offer and getting Carolina to pay up more).
Bring in Rhule - and risk the candidate you really liked as a fallback going to Miss. You have the risk that both Rhule and Judge end up elsewhere, and you have to pick from the rest of the field.
And that's before getting into the control structure - maybe Rhule wasn't comfortable with not having as much control in NY than in Carolina.
These things don't happen in a vacuum, and it's not just money. I don't think the Giants were played here, although I do think (and have repeatedly said) that the Giants should have done a bit of PR for air cover.
Good post and one of the best outlines of the pressure factors from the Giants standpoint.
I still think the Giants should have completed the process. Had they went through Tuesday speaking with Rhule, then all the cards were on the table. They caved to fear of "what could happen" instead of comparing apples to apples.
I feel strongly Judge would have waited one more day, and he would still have been head coach at the end of Tuesday or Wednesday morning after meeting Rhule.
But that small percentage of Rhule winning, why not see if that would have happened? I hate that Mara and Tisch would be blind to that because of what amounts to mediocre QB money.
I may have missed something in the Judge presser about analytics.
I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous.
They wanted him in the building to do the hard sell and it just happened to be reported on Monday.
They loved Judge and still wanted to meet Rhule but no longer felt the need to go to him.
And your theory is what?
They moved it to NJ to pitch the hard sell? What did they want to do before that? Not pitch him a hard sell?
Brilliant logic.
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I shudder to think what this place will look like should Judge stumble out of the gate while the Panthers start the season 3-0.
That very possibly will happen. We need to steady our nerves.
I am going on record right now saying the Giants should give him 4 full years, with the jury out years 3-4. We all collectively need to be more patient to help our team, and this new HC..
If someone's offering you 7 years and almost 100 million dollars, you don't say "I'll think about it" and risk losing the offer. That's complete nonsense and the only way you could have the opinion that he should have walked out the door is if you are not actually considering the situation or youjust can't comprehend being in his shoes.
He did the classy thing: contacted the Giants to let them know of the situation and give them an opportunity.
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They called Rhule Monday afternoon to move their meeting the next day?
I’m sorry but that’s ridiculous.
They wanted him in the building to do the hard sell and it just happened to be reported on Monday.
They loved Judge and still wanted to meet Rhule but no longer felt the need to go to him.
And your theory is what?
They moved it to NJ to pitch the hard sell? What did they want to do before that? Not pitch him a hard sell?
Brilliant logic.
My theory is Rhule was their #1 target and they wanted to have the the interview in NJ. The push to do it here was made before they met with Judge and had nothing to do with him.
I'm 100% sure this is what happened.
As to the Giants' end, I think Mara painted a good picture when he was asked why he wouldn't give anybody a seven-year contract:
Right at the end of that, he makes it clear that the team might have tried to put together a decent offer to Rhule if they weren't sold on Judge.
This is very straightforward. The Panthers got their guy, Rhule got a team he wanted. The Giants got a guy they wanted. I know we'll go over "what-if" scenarios ad-nauseum, but at the moment I think both teams came away happy with how things worked out.