Lewan: 1st rounder 2014
Saffold: FA pickup from St Louis 2019
Jones: FA pickup from Houston 2016
Davis: 3rd rounder 2019
Conklin: 1st rounder 2016
Jones was kind of a sneaky good pickup. A top center coming out of college forced to play guard for his first three years. Signed as a center by the Titans.
That was the best "why you lift all these weights" performances Â
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
Lewan: 1st rounder 2014
Saffold: FA pickup from St Louis 2019
Jones: FA pickup from Houston 2016
Davis: 3rd rounder 2019
Conklin: 1st rounder 2016
Jones was kind of a sneaky good pickup. A top center coming out of college forced to play guard for his first three years. Signed as a center by the Titans.
My biggest complaint about the team calling the game tonight? They almost completely ignored the job the OL was doing against a VERY TOUGH Ravens front.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
Whenever they can actually acquire offensive lineman. All this talk about schemes and creativity is just a continuation of the excuse making that has been going on since we hired Ben McAdoo to quick slant us back to contention.
(To be clear: they gave up the most ypc on average)
Now go look at 2019 or other years
“Stop the run” is a low correlation to winning because it contributes least to scoring points. If you want to score points, you need to pass the ball beavude those plays are most likely to net first downs and big plays.
And generate zero stats and fantasy points. The performance by Lewan, Saffold and Conklin was extraordinary. That sack by Jurrell Casey was a championship play. I can’t even name the Titans receivers, even now.
RE: RE: So when are the Giants going to start running the ball Â
Whenever they can actually acquire offensive lineman. All this talk about schemes and creativity is just a continuation of the excuse making that has been going on since we hired Ben McAdoo to quick slant us back to contention.
Gonna be a tall order when:
1. College might not be producing as many really good OL
2. Our GM doesn't have an eye for scouting and/or acquiring OL talent
RE: Anyone else think Conklin would look nice in blue? Â
(To be clear: they gave up the most ypc on average)
Now go look at 2019 or other years
“Stop the run” is a low correlation to winning because it contributes least to scoring points. If you want to score points, you need to pass the ball beavude those plays are most likely to net first downs and big plays.
But but I thought we needed to have the best defense possible to win. Go away troll.
at the end of the year and racked up losses. The Jets and Bucs were even better than us at it and they were bad.
In a vacuum with a vet QB, the pass game wins you football games. That’s not us though. We have a young, turnover prone QB and a stud RB, we should pool resources into supporting our run game on offense, no question. We ain’t winning shit until we fix the 31st ranked pass defense though.
1. College might not be producing as many really good OL
2. Our GM doesn't have an eye for scouting and/or acquiring OL talent
I agree that #2 is correct until proven otherwise.
#1 I don't buy. The Titans have had a pretty good go at drafting linemen the last three years. From a Giants fan prospective, it feels like there have been no good offensive lineman in college or free agency for almost 10 years.
(To be clear: they gave up the most ypc on average)
Now go look at 2019 or other years
“Stop the run” is a low correlation to winning because it contributes least to scoring points. If you want to score points, you need to pass the ball beavude those plays are most likely to net first downs and big plays.
But but I thought we needed to have the best defense possible to win. Go away troll.
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
We do have an ok running back.
He’s not physical like Henry. I would love to have someone like that on the team. Henry loves contact.
Haven't followed college too closely this year. Is there any good looking bruisers out there?
I really thought Najee Harris from Alabama would declare, kind of shocked that he didn’t. Thought he could’ve been the 2nd running back taken. He really has it all, he just didn’t get the ball a lot because of Alabama’s vaunted passing attack.
No but went to many state championships at Rutgers and saw Phillipsburg a few times. I sat on their side, it was 20 degrees old guys were in t shirt's with hickeys on their necks and the girls had big hair. real blue collar grind it out and they did
No but went to many state championships at Rutgers and saw Phillipsburg a few times. I sat on their side, it was 20 degrees old guys were in t shirt's with hickeys on their necks and the girls had big hair. real blue collar grind it out and they did
but a Jim-Brown like running back and a really good offensive line will never be outdated. Turnovers will cripple any chance to win. And a well-coached, well-prepared team with an excellent plan doesn't stink.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
No but went to many state championships at Rutgers and saw Phillipsburg a few times. I sat on their side, it was 20 degrees old guys were in t shirt's with hickeys on their necks and the girls had big hair. real blue collar grind it out and they did
.
Stateliner alum?
They travel well for their wrestling team too. Some of their older women fans are a real hoot. Screaming and giving our bench and coach all sorts of shit from their chairs.
I luv it and respect the hell out of their wrestling program and fans. We've had some great battles with them over the years.
Is hard to sustain in this century too. Too many parts that are vulnerable to the cap and injury. The Jags and Bears were the last two dominating defenses...neither had a shot at the playoffs in mid December this year.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
They travel well for their wrestling team too. Some of their older women fans are a real hoot. Screaming and giving our bench and coach all sorts of shit from their chairs.
I luv it and respect the hell out of their wrestling program and fans. We've had some great battles with them over the years.
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
We do have an ok running back.
SARCSM ON. But Henry was drafted in the second round, not second pick. SARCASM OOF.
The online play does support the theory to find someone to trade up for our pick and get some tackles and a center. I like BPA but Barkley could be so much better than he was this year.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
Can you explain why
Kc
LAR
NE
all last year were the worst in the league at stopping the run? If it’s so hard to win if you give up 5 YPC as a defense, how did they win all those games?
I’ll even strike off KC because their offense was a once in a decade performance
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
and physical running. When you can run and pound on the opposition, 3-5 yard runs end up being 10-12 yard runs later on. It starts to eat at the confidence level of your opponent and it either makes them soft or need to commit more bodies to try and stop it. That leads to a whole number of other opportunities offensively.
It is why I have hated the shotgun draw or the delayed handoff as those are passive runs, both in intial burst and mentality. They are not designed to impose will but to catch you napping, to steal some yardage. The success, if any, is the moment and isn't something that will bear cumulative fruit later.
We need to be a more physical running team while still be diversified in our overall attack.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: like watching Phillipsburg HS Â
They travel well for their wrestling team too. Some of their older women fans are a real hoot. Screaming and giving our bench and coach all sorts of shit from their chairs.
I luv it and respect the hell out of their wrestling program and fans. We've had some great battles with them over the years.
The best scenario is when a four man front can stop the run and rush the passer. Leaves you 7 to defend the pass. If it takes 8 or 9 guys in the box to stop the run - you are dead. If it takes 8 to defend the pass you are dead.
Running the ball and stopping the run is essentially a prerequisite to winning in the playoffs. Even more so now with the lack of quality QBs around the league.
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: like watching Phillipsburg HS Â
We had big rivalries with schools in northern Jersey and western PA. Schools like Hunterdon Central, Vorhees, North Hunterdon, Easton, Bethlehem Catholic, Nazareth, Northampton, etc.
The Easton rivalry is legendary. Every year we play them in football on Thanksgiving at Lafayette College. It's over 110 games. ESPN has covered it a few times.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
Can you explain why
Kc
LAR
NE
all last year were the worst in the league at stopping the run? If it’s so hard to win if you give up 5 YPC as a defense, how did they win all those games?
I’ll even strike off KC because their offense was a once in a decade performance
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
The league caught up to all those offenses.
This is a conversation about personnel though, not raw stats. The 49ers had the best pass defense in the league this year. Their only star is a 31 yo Richard Sherman.
As I see it, you’re trying to make the point Gettleman has wasted too many resources on “run stopping” DL, I could be wrong. But Armstead, Buckner, Thomas, were all great run stoppers coming out of college that had to develop their pass rush.
What exactly is so outdated about stopping the run? Dalvin Cook had 18 yards on 9 carries and that entire offense fell apart. That 49ers team could not cover Stefon Diggs but because the Vikings couldn’t use play action, they couldn’t get the ball to him. That starts from stopping the run.
We had big rivalries with schools in northern Jersey and western PA. Schools like Hunterdon Central, Vorhees, North Hunterdon, Easton, Bethlehem Catholic, Nazareth, Northampton, etc.
The Easton rivalry is legendary. Every year we play them in football on Thanksgiving at Lafayette College. It's over 110 games. ESPN has covered it a few times.
The wrestling rivalry is very intense.
Not as far South as the name would imply. We're not even the farthest south school in the Shore Conference. Only about 20 mins south of Toms River which is pretty much in the center of the State, North-South wise.
I never got why it was named that. Same with a school like Eastern Regional which isn't exactly in the Eastern part of the State lol. Actually Eastern fits us better as it doesn't get much more Eastern than Manahawkin/LBI.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
Can you explain why
Kc
LAR
NE
all last year were the worst in the league at stopping the run? If it’s so hard to win if you give up 5 YPC as a defense, how did they win all those games?
I’ll even strike off KC because their offense was a once in a decade performance
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
The league caught up to all those offenses.
This is a conversation about personnel though, not raw stats. The 49ers had the best pass defense in the league this year. Their only star is a 31 yo Richard Sherman.
As I see it, you’re trying to make the point Gettleman has wasted too many resources on “run stopping” DL, I could be wrong. But Armstead, Buckner, Thomas, were all great run stoppers coming out of college that had to develop their pass rush.
What exactly is so outdated about stopping the run? Dalvin Cook had 18 yards on 9 carries and that entire offense fell apart. That 49ers team could not cover Stefon Diggs but because the Vikings couldn’t use play action, they couldn’t get the ball to him. That starts from stopping the run.
1 year if armstead Buckner and Thomas
Has more sacks than
10 years of Tomlinson, Leonard Williams, bj hill and dexter Lawrence
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
I think it shows you really need both sides of the ball to be avg or above avg to win consistently
The giants have an average offense
The giants have a bottom 3 defense
If people can figure out where to spend the draft picks and money in the off-season they are just wrong.
Just last year Armstead and Thomas were rumored to be on the trading block because of bad play, but here you are singing their praises. You don’t know what Tomlinson or Williams is going to become, you do realize that right?
'dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesn't correlate to winning' Â
it's not better to try to score more points than your opponent than it is to focus on those two thing. i mean shit, why'd we pick a qb 6 overall last year if only running is important.
1. Obviously you need balance on both sides of the ball. That's why Gettleman adds you have to rush the passer into the mix. But the whole point of "you need to run the ball and stop the run" is that it gives you the chance to win. If you can't run the ball than you can't protect a lead and your QB is going to get killed. And if you can't stop the run, your offense won't get on the field, you may as well not even show up. So being a winning team begins with being able to run the ball and stop the run. It doesn't end there, but that's where it begins. It's the starting point for everything you want to do. Gettleman adds rushing the passer, because the inability to rush the passer negates the whole point of stopping the run.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick. When defensive coordinators prepare a game plan vs the Giants it begins with "how can we keep Barkley from getting the ball in the open field?" and that's worth Barkley's weight in diamonds. He is as much a threat in the passing game as he is in the running game.
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
I think it shows you really need both sides of the ball to be avg or above avg to win consistently
The giants have an average offense
The giants have a bottom 3 defense
If people can figure out where to spend the draft picks and money in the off-season they are just wrong.
But they don't have an average offense. Their offense sucks. The giants were 23rd in offensive efficiency and they had an extremely easy schedule. You aren't going anywhere with that crummy of an offense as well. But one thing you got to do is protect Jones. Young QB's cna get ruined. That's why the need for an OLINE.
GMEn are't SUper Bowl contenders next year anyways. If they have $90m to spend
IN FA:
get the best edge rusher you can and it looks like they are also going hard after LWill.
Also get COnklin.
Look to get any defense with ILB the top priority whatever you can afford. If ILB no good get a Safety or CB.
IN DRAFT:
get a LT and a Center
In rds 3,5 and 6 all defense.
Depending on what you to above in FA you might be able to go after a Tight End in one of the later rounds.
1. Obviously you need balance on both sides of the ball. That's why Gettleman adds you have to rush the passer into the mix. But the whole point of "you need to run the ball and stop the run" is that it gives you the chance to win. If you can't run the ball than you can't protect a lead and your QB is going to get killed. And if you can't stop the run, your offense won't get on the field, you may as well not even show up. So being a winning team begins with being able to run the ball and stop the run. It doesn't end there, but that's where it begins. It's the starting point for everything you want to do. Gettleman adds rushing the passer, because the inability to rush the passer negates the whole point of stopping the run.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick. When defensive coordinators prepare a game plan vs the Giants it begins with "how can we keep Barkley from getting the ball in the open field?" and that's worth Barkley's weight in diamonds. He is as much a threat in the passing game as he is in the running game.
there are only two more options on top of those, covering and passing. and clearly you wont' say those aren't important as if you can't cover then it doesn't matter if you can defend the run bc teams will just pass, and if you can pass better than anyone can stop the run you'll only pass. again reductive thinking at its finest. and thus why the game is cyclical.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick.
I can't believe right now you think he was worth the pick. As of this moment he has NOT been worth the pick. I think it is possible he can be- but one thing is DG has to get him an OL. I find it pathetic that posters like you give him a pass this year. He sucked. Take off your blue shades.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
Is that yes obviously running the ball and stopping the run in and of itself does not win football games, but the point is the effect that the running game has on the passing game is of utmost importance. The effect of the passing game on the running game is not nearly as obvious in football.
Unless a team is behind by 5 TDs, more often than not they are going to run the ball on 1st down (again I’m just saying the majority of the time). How much yardage you get determines everything you do for the rest of that set of downs. Let me speak in very general terms, again, I’m simplifying this on purpose...
If you run the ball and pick up 6 yards, you have a major advantage over the defense:
-you can run it again, especially because you’re apparently running it well.
- you can go play action and the defense is more likely to get caught for a big play if they know you are running the call well
-you can simply drop back and run a pass play, and the defense is forced to defend the shorter routes because it’s a shorter down and distance, but then having to cover those routes (and the flats) opens up the deeper and intermediate routes!
If you get stopped for no gain and it’s 2nd and 10, your options are suddenly limited:
-play action doesn’t work as well because the defense knows you suck at running the ball
- you probably have to throw it because you damn sure aren’t going anywhere with the run
-you probably throw it so as to take 2 shots at throwing for the 1st down instead of just 1 on 3rd down.
-the defense knows you’re throwing it so already you’re at a disadvantage.
Running the ball on 1st down and picking up 5-6 yards is like a batter getting to a 2-0 count. You have so many more options and the defense has to adapt their game based on the situation in a way that favors you.
That’s why you have to be able to run the ball and stop the run. On offense: of course you still may be a team that get most of your yardage through the air, but you’re simply not going to be a powerhouse passing team unless you at least have a competent running game. That’s why just looking up total rushing yards for a team and saying “oh look they made the playoffs and they’re 21st in rushing blah blah blah” is stupid. That’s not what it’s about. It’s about the fact that having a competent running game opens up your entire playbook and makes things extremely difficult on a defense.
You need a running game to be able to consistently preserve a lead.
Unless you have one of the best QBs in the league and they can just throw the ball all game and continuously put together scoring drives (a la Mahomes). But if you don’t have that, and you simply have a fairly good and explosive passing offense but no running game, then sure you may get hot and get a bunch of yards and points, but if you can’t keep that up all game then what’s going to happen? You keep passing and when your drives fail that means you’ve thrown incomplete passes and not taken much time off the clock. The other team is going to get a higher number of possessions. Furthermore continuously passing is just more dangerous in terms of committing turnovers.
So okay you try to run the ball and when you can’t run it you go 3 and out, thinking you were trying to be conservative and “eat some clock” , yet again the other team gets more opportunities.
The point is, generally speaking, you need to be able to run the ball and stop the run. Of course there will always be exceptions that prove the rule, such as Mahomes who is simply an exceptional QB (as is Reid as a play caller). Also the west coast offense is an exception of sorts because it uses short passes as runs in a way. But tbh I’ve always felt that was why Reid has never gotten over the hump. His offense is awesome to watch and can put up a ton of yards and points and he’s a genius so he wins a lot of games, but IMO the west coast offense is playing with fire. If you’re passing game suddenly hits a slump in the middle of the game the other team is going to start getting a lot of opportunities to come back. It’s also harder to successfully pass in January (i.e. the playoffs).
I just see passing in general to be a more volatile venture than running the ball. That’s why most of the time championship teams at least have a “bread and butter” running game they can always come back to. That’s not to say they run for 200 yards every game and that’s the only way to win, it’s just that they have it there when they need it... to open up the playbook, to convert in the red zone or on 3rd and short when they need it, to preserve a lead, etc.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
He sucks?
A lot of us don't get it because we know your point is bullshit. You say he wasn't worth the pick. Yet he was. Just because the Giants have not built a line for him does not make the pick bad. He has not lost his ability.
And to prove your point you must definitively say who was there that was better than him and as we all know, there wasn't anybody better than him.
Your problem should be with the coaching that did not develop the line in front of him or the play calling that does not fully utilize his talent.
There is nothing wrong with the player. And just because YOU don't like taking a RB that high doesn't make the pick bad. What makes it bad to you is because you don't think a RB should be taken at #2. Wasn't that long ago that taking a Guard in the top 5-10 was looked down on as well as DT.
doesn't feature a lot of physical, traditional power teams anymore. Bama was the last and Saban opted to switch to the spread and its' largely worked out for them.
It's harder to win with this style of football nowadays.
No one made the playoffs on the arms of Garoppolo, Cousins, and Tannehill. Today gives us a different angle with the Texans/Chiefs game. Seahawks/Packers are more balanced offenses too. As Judge said you build around what you have and the teams today have elite passing QBs, yesterdays teams did not (Lamar Jackson is great but has a different skillset than Mahomes and Rodgers).
Giants anemic pass rush is a MAJOR problem that needs to be addressed as well as our trash secondary. The Bucs and the Jets were great at stopping the run this year but neither is in the playoffs.
Teams know they can throw for 400 yards on us no problem. Need to balance out our defense instead of loading up on run stuffing hog mollies. We can sign and draft all of the run stuffers in the world but if we can't stop or even slow the passing game it won't matter.
RE: RE: So when are the Giants going to start running the ball Â
Whenever they can actually acquire offensive lineman. All this talk about schemes and creativity is just a continuation of the excuse making that has been going on since we hired Ben McAdoo to quick slant us back to contention.
Gettleman has acquired several offensive linemen. It's just that Mr. Hawg Mawllies can't seem to identify enough good ones and gets oddly attached to shitty ones like Halapio.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
That's what makes it a correlation. If you have to introduce another factor (like stopping the pass), the correlation to winning no longer exists for stopping the run.
All this just to double down on the sentiment that our GM has outdated philosophies. Let it go
I have an idea - let's see Resume Dave use his team-building philosophy to get us to 9 wins in a single season instead of needing two years to get there, and then we can let it go.
Until then, it's just another soundbite from a blowhard GM that likes the sound of his own voice.
The late great Dr. Z wrote this after Super Bowl XXV in SI Â
"Power wins football games," Parcells repeated endlessly amidst the postgame locker room turmoil. "Power wins football games."
That philosophy has permeated his approach to the game: Draft big, powerful people to play on both sides of the ball, grind out a rushing game behind a hog-type line (fortified by three tight ends when necessary), stuff the run on defense and, when the other team passes, make sure the routes are short and the receivers are funneled to the linebackers. Big people attacking little people. It's a rather brutal concept, and on Sunday it resulted in a whopping advantage in possession time—40:33 to 19:27—that left the Bills' defenders groggy and rubber-legged in the Florida humidity at Tampa Stadium.
The Parcells approach is an answer to the new trends, the blue plate specials of 1990, like the run-and-shoot and Buffalo's three-wideout, no-huddle offense. It's a rather quaint reversion to the days before sock 'em gave way to slick 'em. Someone asked Parcells if Super Bowl XXV had vindicated his system. "It's always been vindicated," he said. "It's the new stuff that had something to prove."
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick.
I can't believe right now you think he was worth the pick. As of this moment he has NOT been worth the pick. I think it is possible he can be- but one thing is DG has to get him an OL. I find it pathetic that posters like you give him a pass this year. He sucked. Take off your blue shades.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
This is just typical Milton. He's still firmly entrenched on Cam Robinson being an all-pro OT while many Jags fans want to move him to OG (or the bench). And so it is with Barkley as well - once Milton has formed his opinion on a player, it doesn't change despite evidence to the contrary.
Recruited OL for quickness off the snap and balance and like the falcons did, and use misdirection etc and moving the QB on the counter side to great effect in context of instant runs.
that Is just not an absolute at all. The second half of the year, the Giants fun defense was decent. Barkley got healthy and started running better. But they didn’t start piling up wins. If you can’t defend the pass, nobody needs to run the ball on you.
The Ravens ran for 185 yards last night. They lead the league in rushing this year. They are also home early. They are a team built to run the ball and they do it exceptionally well. They didn’t win a playoff game.
You win in the NFL by winning matchups. Can your OL beat their DL? Can their corners cover your receivers? Can you control the ball and keep a high powered offense off the field?
Catch phrases are all well and good, but in the end they are just noise. Winning in the NFL is not some sort of simple formula that was lost 30 years ago.
And btw - the Ravens had more than 500 yards of offense Â
Packers was ranked 32nd the year before, yet they won the SB.
But the Titans pulled an upset over the Ravens running the ball, so let's throw that history out and base everything on one weekend of playoff football.
The lesson we should draw is that the running game can be more important in the playoffs than the regular season. Also, a battering ram RB, like Henry, is more effective in the playoffs. And a dominant run blocking OL can control the game in the playoffs IF you get ahead and don't turn the ball over.
But there are still many different ways to win championships.
Titans got some nice turnovers to stop Balt drives and score easier themselves, but good luck building a gameplan on forcing turnovers...
The Ravens got a lot of empty yards in the middle of the field and got stopped twice on 4th and 1 deep in Titan's territory. Once the field got short, the Ravens could not move the ball and I think they passed on two FGs(?).
The remaining playoff teams did not "stop the run" all season, just for the last 1 or 2 games. You can manipulate any sets of stats with minimal sample size. SF was 11th in run stoppage this year, Tenn was 10th. Hell, the NYG were 7th stopping the run. KC cannot stop anything.
The real stat is who is playing the best team defense and offense at the end - not who you play, when you play them (BP). Right now, Henry is unstoppable. Tenn did not run like this during the regular season. Balt lost because of 5 turnovers/4th down stops. Each remaining team does alot of things good and bad, just gotta get playing clean football at the end.
I suspect if you look at teams who have made the playoffs and teams who have won playoffs games over a significant sample size, you’d see passing the ball well in this era is more advantageous. But that’s a guess.
It’s a trend/counter trend league. You can bet Belichick is prepping to go Air Raid right now as teams build toward the trenches.
You can pull simple conclusions and tweet silly isms to support any claim.
As far as the Giants, if they are going run first, they need a ton of help. They’ve had a pretty average run game the last two years.
RE: And btw - the Ravens had more than 500 yards of offense Â
Sometimes when you win, you really lose, and sometimes when you lose, you really win, and sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie, and sometimes when you tie, you actually win or lose. Winning or losing is all one organic mechanism, from which one extracts what one needs.
WMCJ
RE: So when are the Giants going to start running the ball Â
Titans got some nice turnovers to stop Balt drives and score easier themselves, but good luck building a gameplan on forcing turnovers...
Didn’t take long for someone to sneak in a shitty stat argument from the Ravens game.
The Titans were playing prevent by the end of the 3rd quarter.
See if this helps...the Ravens had over 300 yards by the end of the 3QTR which was right on track for their normal 400 or so yards that they averaged for 16 regular season games.
Oh and that happened to be #2 in the league only behind Dallas.
Is that a shitty stat too?
RE: RE: RE: And btw - the Ravens had more than 500 yards of offense Â
Titans got some nice turnovers to stop Balt drives and score easier themselves, but good luck building a gameplan on forcing turnovers...
Didn’t take long for someone to sneak in a shitty stat argument from the Ravens game.
The Titans were playing prevent by the end of the 3rd quarter.
See if this helps...the Ravens had over 300 yards by the end of the 3QTR which was right on track for their normal 400 or so yards that they averaged for 16 regular season games.
Oh and that happened to be #2 in the league only behind Dallas.
Is that a shitty stat too?
Yea, still pretty shitty. Anyone who actually watched the game knows whatever stats the ravens put up were empty.
1. Obviously you need balance on both sides of the ball. That's why Gettleman adds you have to rush the passer into the mix. But the whole point of "you need to run the ball and stop the run" is that it gives you the chance to win. If you can't run the ball than you can't protect a lead and your QB is going to get killed. And if you can't stop the run, your offense won't get on the field, you may as well not even show up. So being a winning team begins with being able to run the ball and stop the run. It doesn't end there, but that's where it begins. It's the starting point for everything you want to do. Gettleman adds rushing the passer, because the inability to rush the passer negates the whole point of stopping the run.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick. When defensive coordinators prepare a game plan vs the Giants it begins with "how can we keep Barkley from getting the ball in the open field?" and that's worth Barkley's weight in diamonds. He is as much a threat in the passing game as he is in the running game.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
He sucks?
A lot of us don't get it because we know your point is bullshit. You say he wasn't worth the pick. Yet he was. Just because the Giants have not built a line for him does not make the pick bad. He has not lost his ability.
And to prove your point you must definitively say who was there that was better than him and as we all know, there wasn't anybody better than him.
Your problem should be with the coaching that did not develop the line in front of him or the play calling that does not fully utilize his talent.
There is nothing wrong with the player. And just because YOU don't like taking a RB that high doesn't make the pick bad. What makes it bad to you is because you don't think a RB should be taken at #2. Wasn't that long ago that taking a Guard in the top 5-10 was looked down on as well as DT.
what a load of crap.
first of let's distinguish between your reply to me when you asked "SB sucks?" vs "This year he sucked." SO when yousay "he sucks" - he "sucked" this year.
You think this season was all about the OLIne?
SO when he got hurt, it was the OLINE's fault?
When he was a turnstile blocking it was the OLIne's fault?
Excluding the TB game-- 5 of his 12 other games he ran for 66 yards or less - and that is what you expect for a number 2 overall draft pick?
In summary-- so he misses games basically 4 games and that isn't his fault (despite the fact the argument not to draft a RB so high is that they would miss too many games!). He blocks like shit and that isn't his fault.
And he is blameless for nay bad running game. IN other words for some like you-- it's never his fault????
*****Here's a newsflash for you: If his OLINE sucks which turns out over his career he never did much - and as a result the team never does shit (never make the playoffs or make it 1 or 2 times in 10 years without one playoff victory)-- then it would mean the team has underperformed - the pick the GMEN with a RB 2nd overall would have been blunder. Some of you have to realize the idea is to win football games, not accumulate stats that don't lead to wins. Because the GMEN didn't know how to support him, then it means they wasted the pick and should have gone in a different direction.
RE: RE: And btw - the Ravens had more than 500 yards of offense Â
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
He sucks?
A lot of us don't get it because we know your point is bullshit. You say he wasn't worth the pick. Yet he was. Just because the Giants have not built a line for him does not make the pick bad. He has not lost his ability.
And to prove your point you must definitively say who was there that was better than him and as we all know, there wasn't anybody better than him.
Your problem should be with the coaching that did not develop the line in front of him or the play calling that does not fully utilize his talent.
There is nothing wrong with the player. And just because YOU don't like taking a RB that high doesn't make the pick bad. What makes it bad to you is because you don't think a RB should be taken at #2. Wasn't that long ago that taking a Guard in the top 5-10 was looked down on as well as DT.
As for drafting SB-- I've said on here many times that I have no problem taking a RB like SB with the 2nd pick PROVIDED THEY GIVE HIM AN OLINE.
It's only that I got an open mind. I realize if they aren't going to fix the OLINE to be AT LEAST better than just a decent/mediocre one-- then SB is a wasted pick because he'll never be that generational RB needed to win enough football games.
WINNING IS WHAT MATTERS> NOT STATISTICS. The number 2 overall pick is supposed to lead you eventually to winning. Until you win - unless the guy is doing something super outstanding on his own-- then that player was obviously not the right pick for this particular team.
SHOW ME. Don't TELL ME. That's how all of us fans should be. You just want to TELL ME that the pick was good regardless of wins and losses. Not exclusively what I just said but to further that if he gets hurt etc you just want to make excuses. SB has been on team two years and one year he was wasted mostly due to injury. And posters such as yourself want to ignore the injury angle because it doesn't support your narrative. Yet posters how didn't want him cite the injury angle as to why you shouldn't have taken him the RB. How can you or anyone else say they are wrong when in 2 years they've already been proven right that RB's get hurt too easily. In year 2 he already got hurt and it affected his play.
Anyways- I'm with ya-- I think eventually they can possibly win with RB being the big wheel-- but SHOW ME instead of your meaningless excuses talk. In year 2 SB showed us shit. Take off your blue shades.
You can also judge it last night on how Tenn Defense Â
is from a traditional analytic point of view. The point of being multiple and flexible, as coach Judge is saying, is to be able to do whatever it takes to win. Sometimes stopping the run, sometimes the pass. We are going to have to adjust how we look at the team. I’m betting we have a bunch of players who can do certain things well now. I’m expecting, if Judge is successful, a quicker turnaround then most here.
RE: The analytics say all the losing teams in the playoffs actually won. Â
You clearly don’t understand analytics at all. Analytics don’t give you an answers they just help people like coaches make more informed decisions. It’s up to the coaches to determine what they make of information analytics provides.
Also it all depends on the data that you collect. If the data is crap then the analytics will be crap and vice versa. So at the end of the day, we have absolutely no idea who is looking at what data, if that data is good or bad, and whether they are actually reading it correctly.
There's a reason that quarterbacks and edge rosters are the highest paid and highest drafted players in the game. It's because the professionals know it's about throwing the ball.
Almost all the professionals, anyway. Some teams draft running backs second overall when they need a quarterback and a pass rusher.
Two years on and people are still rationalizing what was a terrible decision made in a critical moment for the franchise. There have been many mistakes made by the Gettleman regime, but the critical one was at that draft: keep Eli/draft Barkley. That was a fork in the road.
RE: What's remarkable is it stems from sensitivity over picking Barkley Â
Two years on and people are still rationalizing what was a terrible decision made in a critical moment for the franchise. There have been many mistakes made by the Gettleman regime, but the critical one was at that draft: keep Eli/draft Barkley. That was a fork in the road.
It delayed everything 2 years, but the fork in the road was hiring Shurmur a few months prior. Looking back on it now, everything about the Shurmur hire was to get more out of Eli for one more retool.
Based on Judge’s presser, it appears there is a fresh perspective. It’s too bad we wasted 2 years though.
The offense can be good next year but only if their OLINE is fixed. DG has done a rotten job getting quality players. Some posters on here are just making noise under the misguided belief that it was only coaching.
The move to get an aging LT is Solder during a rebuild was wrong. Not only wrong but stupid. Instead of him, Omameh, Stewart and then wasting money on Ogeltree and/or Martin they could have gotten two YOUNGER Olinemen at near the same cost as what they spent for SOlder, Stewart and Omameh.
Then wasting our money on Tate who does nothing for the future rebuild of this football instead of for example get a guy like Morse.
Wiht Dg - we just have had someone who is ben grosly negligent buidling this OLIEN. He has hish chance yet again. Get Barkley a good OLIen in which he is't getting hit in the backfield or at the LOS - imo he'll become a weapon that DG envisioned. But he needs to his head out of his ass and stop screwing around with and get some quality.
The Giants have to stop living in the past and realize good offenses are a must considering how far away the defense is. But I fear DG is like many on here that think football is all about defense. You win with both but just look at all the teams in the last 6 years that have been to the super bowl and all but one had a top 8 efficient offense. It's time to get that OLINE fixed then you'll see SB become a beast. But I have little confidence that DG is capable of doing this.
Calling him terrible or the pick terrible makes it easy for others to attack legitimate criticisms of the pick.
Most running backs have a short shelf life. There is a meter running. Long career RBs are outliers.
The Giants have won nine games in 2 seasons after spending the the number 2 pick on him. He didn't help Eli in year 1 or DJ in year 2 win a meaningful amount of games. The return on him so far is poor. This is fact.
Do you think this team contends for a championship before his rookie contract expires?
SB does not hurt your championship chances now. When he is being paid 15 plus million a year and the wear and tire sets in, he might be a huge obstacle to winning if he loses just a touch of the explosiveness.
I don't think it is a black and white issue. The clock is ticking though. if we do not win some meaningful games soon it was a wasted pick and it will not be debatable.
He has a spectacular highlight film, oozes talent... and doesn't do the things that winning teams need from their halfbacks:
Generating consistently positive yardage.
Instead, he is a high-variability roulette wheel where your rushing game can explode for big yardage or, pretty often, lose a few yards, putting his team into a down & distance problem.
I'm not saying I absolutely believe that yet but I am starting to lean towards it.
He has a spectacular highlight film, oozes talent... and doesn't do the things that winning teams need from their halfbacks:
Generating consistently positive yardage.
Instead, he is a high-variability roulette wheel where your rushing game can explode for big yardage or, pretty often, lose a few yards, putting his team into a down & distance problem.
I'm not saying I absolutely believe that yet but I am starting to lean towards it.
I think that's part of it, and part of it has been incompetence around him. The problem now is we're on the eve of making a contract decision on him to reset the RB market.
we were the better running team and we had a superior defense. In the one game we lost to Baltimore, their defense was well ahead of ours and it showed.
Meanwhile, the comments above about Barkley are just stupid. Before we make any assessment, we need to see him run behind a real OL. I cannot believe people here are questioning him when the guy was getting hit two yards behind the line on what felt like 50% of this carries.
take Sy’s word as gospel. I respect what he does and his opinion but, he’s not the end all, be all. He’s nothing but another opinionated voice among many.
He has a spectacular highlight film, oozes talent... and doesn't do the things that winning teams need from their halfbacks:
Generating consistently positive yardage.
Instead, he is a high-variability roulette wheel where your rushing game can explode for big yardage or, pretty often, lose a few yards, putting his team into a down & distance problem.
I'm not saying I absolutely believe that yet but I am starting to lean towards it.
I’ll say it.
He’s a fucking loser, and the loser GM is going to pay this loser $20 mil a season.
According to Football-Outsiders - in the last 6 years between the champion and runner-up 11 teams had a top 8 ranked offense while only 5 of 12 had a top 8 ranked defense.
we were the better running team and we had a superior defense. In the one game we lost to Baltimore, their defense was well ahead of ours and it showed.
why does this matter? Are you trying to say there is only one way the Giants can ever win?
So it is impossible that Gettleman will ever trade down as well, right?
So is playoff football still about running and stopping the run?
Do you seriously imagine using the Chiefs under Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes is some kind of statistical model? That is foolhardiness to the highest degree imaginable.
And the Giants could have hired Reid to succeed Coughlin, and drafted Mahomes instead of holding onto the corpse of Eli Manning - which might have both happened if in fact they went after Reid the minute Philly let him go - which at least a few on BBI advocated. Although many Pooh poohed Reid - since he's never once won an SB in a long and otherwise extremely successful career as HC.
But pointing to the single best and very unique QB and one of the consistently top 2-3 offensive coaches in the league as some type of statistical model - which is what you are doing when you cite KC and Mahomes as a model of how to win - is foolish.
I expect a better argument than that from you, Terps'.
...it proves that there is no "one way" to win in the league. You just need to pick an identity and excel at it. You take an honest look at what you're good at and what you're not so good at and then you build on what you're good at and mitigate the rest. For the Giants it means a ball control (play action) passing attack and an explosive running game. That should be the goal in terms of building the roster around Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley.
It's also why I advocate drafting a RB with either the 3rd round comp pick or the early 4th round pick if there is an explosive back (i.e., LSU's Clyde Edwards-Helaire) available at the time. If Barkley is what makes the Giants offense tick, we don't want it on life support every time he suffers and injury.
RE: Once every five years an offense based team wins a championship Â
Giants fans of all fans should recognize this. You've seen this team win a championship with outstanding defense and just enough offense. And you've seen this team win with outstanding passing offense and brilliant wide recievers but no running game and an average defense.
...it proves that there is no "one way" to win in the league. You just need to pick an identity and excel at it. You take an honest look at what you're good at and what you're not so good at and then you build on what you're good at and mitigate the rest. For the Giants it means a ball control (play action) passing attack and an explosive running game. That should be the goal in terms of building the roster around Daniel Jones and Saquon Barkley.
It's also why I advocate drafting a RB with either the 3rd round comp pick or the early 4th round pick if there is an explosive back (i.e., LSU's Clyde Edwards-Helaire) available at the time. If Barkley is what makes the Giants offense tick, we don't want it on life support every time he suffers and injury.
If Daniel Jones is going to be terrific why can't you have an explosive offense? why not have an even more "identity" using an explosive offense?
It's not "running or passing" or "running vs passing"' Â
I fronted shanny when at OC falcons as our new HC because of the way he leverages O line play, outside running, instant to develop runs, to improve OL pass protection outcomes though miss direction, roll outs, and get D fronts going sideways instead of at your qb .
You run so you CAN pass.
Nobody saw the 3rd and 8 td? Running in third and 8 is exactly what Macadoo and shurmur would never do, ergo, 'A ' gap blitz sack ...loose 8... 4th and 16.
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
We do have an ok running back.
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Have Henry running the ball.
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
We do have an ok running back.
He’s not physical like Henry. I would love to have someone like that on the team. Henry loves contact.
Lewan: 1st rounder 2014
Saffold: FA pickup from St Louis 2019
Jones: FA pickup from Houston 2016
Davis: 3rd rounder 2019
Conklin: 1st rounder 2016
Jones was kind of a sneaky good pickup. A top center coming out of college forced to play guard for his first three years. Signed as a center by the Titans.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
I think it's more like Henry and their OL are so good they force Tannehill to not have to throw.
They're not throwing it because he can't, they're not throwing it because they don't have to.
Lewan: 1st rounder 2014
Saffold: FA pickup from St Louis 2019
Jones: FA pickup from Houston 2016
Davis: 3rd rounder 2019
Conklin: 1st rounder 2016
Jones was kind of a sneaky good pickup. A top center coming out of college forced to play guard for his first three years. Signed as a center by the Titans.
My biggest complaint about the team calling the game tonight? They almost completely ignored the job the OL was doing against a VERY TOUGH Ravens front.
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In comment 14774275 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
Have Henry running the ball.
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
We do have an ok running back.
He’s not physical like Henry. I would love to have someone like that on the team. Henry loves contact.
Haven't followed college too closely this year. Is there any good looking bruisers out there?
Quote:
Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
IS he outdated or incompetent if he doesn't fix the OL this year?
Quote:
Have Henry running the ball.
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
I think it's more like Henry and their OL are so good they force Tannehill to not have to throw.
They're not throwing it because he can't, they're not throwing it because they don't have to.
Henry is a special back. He’s done this on every level he has played at. It’s really amazing to watch.
Whenever they can actually acquire offensive lineman. All this talk about schemes and creativity is just a continuation of the excuse making that has been going on since we hired Ben McAdoo to quick slant us back to contention.
Quote:
Have Henry running the ball.
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
I think it's more like Henry and their OL are so good they force Tannehill to not have to throw.
They're not throwing it because he can't, they're not throwing it because they don't have to.
That's it. There's no perfect game in football like there is in baseball...but if there was it's probably 0 passing attempts from the winning team.
Go look at the 2018 super bowl defenses
LAR and NE and KC bottom 5 in YPC given up
(To be clear: they gave up the most ypc on average)
Now go look at 2019 or other years
“Stop the run” is a low correlation to winning because it contributes least to scoring points. If you want to score points, you need to pass the ball beavude those plays are most likely to net first downs and big plays.
Quote:
?
Whenever they can actually acquire offensive lineman. All this talk about schemes and creativity is just a continuation of the excuse making that has been going on since we hired Ben McAdoo to quick slant us back to contention.
Gonna be a tall order when:
1. College might not be producing as many really good OL
2. Our GM doesn't have an eye for scouting and/or acquiring OL talent
With his injury history we'll probably get Geoff Schwartzed again.
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In comment 14774275 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
Have Henry running the ball.
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
I think it's more like Henry and their OL are so good they force Tannehill to not have to throw.
They're not throwing it because he can't, they're not throwing it because they don't have to.
Henry is a special back. He’s done this on every level he has played at. It’s really amazing to watch.
Agreed. It was fun watching him at Bama and he's still doing it against the big boys.
You know you're watching something great when they tell you what they're going to do but it still can't be stopped.
Go look at the 2018 super bowl defenses
LAR and NE and KC bottom 5 in YPC given up
(To be clear: they gave up the most ypc on average)
Now go look at 2019 or other years
“Stop the run” is a low correlation to winning because it contributes least to scoring points. If you want to score points, you need to pass the ball beavude those plays are most likely to net first downs and big plays.
But but I thought we needed to have the best defense possible to win. Go away troll.
Stateliner alum?
In a vacuum with a vet QB, the pass game wins you football games. That’s not us though. We have a young, turnover prone QB and a stud RB, we should pool resources into supporting our run game on offense, no question. We ain’t winning shit until we fix the 31st ranked pass defense though.
Having said that, there's multiple ways to win football games.
TN was 9-7.
But they're hot now.
Next year, they could bring back the same cast/strategy and lose.
I think it's foolish to jump to conclusions based on small sample sizes.
Fact is, teams win football games many different ways. I think teams/people get tricked into trying to emulate to much after success.
But running the football, in particular to me, is a great approach to controlling the LOS and clock.....and setting up the rest of your offense.
Gonna be a tall order when:
1. College might not be producing as many really good OL
2. Our GM doesn't have an eye for scouting and/or acquiring OL talent
I agree that #2 is correct until proven otherwise.
#1 I don't buy. The Titans have had a pretty good go at drafting linemen the last three years. From a Giants fan prospective, it feels like there have been no good offensive lineman in college or free agency for almost 10 years.
Quote:
“Stop the run”
Go look at the 2018 super bowl defenses
LAR and NE and KC bottom 5 in YPC given up
(To be clear: they gave up the most ypc on average)
Now go look at 2019 or other years
“Stop the run” is a low correlation to winning because it contributes least to scoring points. If you want to score points, you need to pass the ball beavude those plays are most likely to net first downs and big plays.
But but I thought we needed to have the best defense possible to win. Go away troll.
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
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In comment 14774278 adamg said:
Quote:
In comment 14774275 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
Have Henry running the ball.
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
We do have an ok running back.
He’s not physical like Henry. I would love to have someone like that on the team. Henry loves contact.
Haven't followed college too closely this year. Is there any good looking bruisers out there?
I really thought Najee Harris from Alabama would declare, kind of shocked that he didn’t. Thought he could’ve been the 2nd running back taken. He really has it all, he just didn’t get the ball a lot because of Alabama’s vaunted passing attack.
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No but went to many state championships at Rutgers and saw Phillipsburg a few times. I sat on their side, it was 20 degrees old guys were in t shirt's with hickeys on their necks and the girls had big hair. real blue collar grind it out and they did
.
Stateliner alum?
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In comment 14774309 gtt350 said:
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No but went to many state championships at Rutgers and saw Phillipsburg a few times. I sat on their side, it was 20 degrees old guys were in t shirt's with hickeys on their necks and the girls had big hair. real blue collar grind it out and they did
.
Stateliner alum?
Got it. I am Stateliner.
Great football and wrestling traditions.
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In comment 14774277 jwebb20 said:
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Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
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In comment 14774294 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774277 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
Quote:
In comment 14774309 gtt350 said:
Quote:
No but went to many state championships at Rutgers and saw Phillipsburg a few times. I sat on their side, it was 20 degrees old guys were in t shirt's with hickeys on their necks and the girls had big hair. real blue collar grind it out and they did
.
Stateliner alum?
They travel well for their wrestling team too. Some of their older women fans are a real hoot. Screaming and giving our bench and coach all sorts of shit from their chairs.
I luv it and respect the hell out of their wrestling program and fans. We've had some great battles with them over the years.
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In comment 14774302 jwebb20 said:
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In comment 14774294 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774277 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
They travel well for their wrestling team too. Some of their older women fans are a real hoot. Screaming and giving our bench and coach all sorts of shit from their chairs.
I luv it and respect the hell out of their wrestling program and fans. We've had some great battles with them over the years.
Which HS are you from?
Quote:
Have Henry running the ball.
Tannehill basically forces them to run the ball all the time.
We do have an ok running back.
SARCSM ON. But Henry was drafted in the second round, not second pick. SARCASM OOF.
The online play does support the theory to find someone to trade up for our pick and get some tackles and a center. I like BPA but Barkley could be so much better than he was this year.
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In comment 14774347 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 14774302 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14774294 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774277 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
Can you explain why
Kc
LAR
NE
all last year were the worst in the league at stopping the run? If it’s so hard to win if you give up 5 YPC as a defense, how did they win all those games?
I’ll even strike off KC because their offense was a once in a decade performance
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
It is why I have hated the shotgun draw or the delayed handoff as those are passive runs, both in intial burst and mentality. They are not designed to impose will but to catch you napping, to steal some yardage. The success, if any, is the moment and isn't something that will bear cumulative fruit later.
We need to be a more physical running team while still be diversified in our overall attack.
Quote:
They travel well for their wrestling team too. Some of their older women fans are a real hoot. Screaming and giving our bench and coach all sorts of shit from their chairs.
I luv it and respect the hell out of their wrestling program and fans. We've had some great battles with them over the years.
Which HS are you from?
Southern Rams
Running the ball and stopping the run is essentially a prerequisite to winning in the playoffs. Even more so now with the lack of quality QBs around the league.
Unless of course you're playing TN.
So much of the NFL is matchups.
TN will prove to be a champion when their running game falters, and the QB has to make plays.
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Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
Which HS are you from?
Southern Rams
Your deep in south Jersey.
We had big rivalries with schools in northern Jersey and western PA. Schools like Hunterdon Central, Vorhees, North Hunterdon, Easton, Bethlehem Catholic, Nazareth, Northampton, etc.
The Easton rivalry is legendary. Every year we play them in football on Thanksgiving at Lafayette College. It's over 110 games. ESPN has covered it a few times.
The wrestling rivalry is very intense.
Quote:
In comment 14774353 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14774347 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774302 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14774294 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774277 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
Can you explain why
Kc
LAR
NE
all last year were the worst in the league at stopping the run? If it’s so hard to win if you give up 5 YPC as a defense, how did they win all those games?
I’ll even strike off KC because their offense was a once in a decade performance
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
The league caught up to all those offenses.
This is a conversation about personnel though, not raw stats. The 49ers had the best pass defense in the league this year. Their only star is a 31 yo Richard Sherman.
As I see it, you’re trying to make the point Gettleman has wasted too many resources on “run stopping” DL, I could be wrong. But Armstead, Buckner, Thomas, were all great run stoppers coming out of college that had to develop their pass rush.
What exactly is so outdated about stopping the run? Dalvin Cook had 18 yards on 9 carries and that entire offense fell apart. That 49ers team could not cover Stefon Diggs but because the Vikings couldn’t use play action, they couldn’t get the ball to him. That starts from stopping the run.
Quote:
Which HS are you from?
Southern Rams
Your deep in south Jersey.
We had big rivalries with schools in northern Jersey and western PA. Schools like Hunterdon Central, Vorhees, North Hunterdon, Easton, Bethlehem Catholic, Nazareth, Northampton, etc.
The Easton rivalry is legendary. Every year we play them in football on Thanksgiving at Lafayette College. It's over 110 games. ESPN has covered it a few times.
The wrestling rivalry is very intense.
Not as far South as the name would imply. We're not even the farthest south school in the Shore Conference. Only about 20 mins south of Toms River which is pretty much in the center of the State, North-South wise.
I never got why it was named that. Same with a school like Eastern Regional which isn't exactly in the Eastern part of the State lol. Actually Eastern fits us better as it doesn't get much more Eastern than Manahawkin/LBI.
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In comment 14774357 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774353 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14774347 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774302 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14774294 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774277 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
Can you explain why
Kc
LAR
NE
all last year were the worst in the league at stopping the run? If it’s so hard to win if you give up 5 YPC as a defense, how did they win all those games?
I’ll even strike off KC because their offense was a once in a decade performance
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
The league caught up to all those offenses.
This is a conversation about personnel though, not raw stats. The 49ers had the best pass defense in the league this year. Their only star is a 31 yo Richard Sherman.
As I see it, you’re trying to make the point Gettleman has wasted too many resources on “run stopping” DL, I could be wrong. But Armstead, Buckner, Thomas, were all great run stoppers coming out of college that had to develop their pass rush.
What exactly is so outdated about stopping the run? Dalvin Cook had 18 yards on 9 carries and that entire offense fell apart. That 49ers team could not cover Stefon Diggs but because the Vikings couldn’t use play action, they couldn’t get the ball to him. That starts from stopping the run.
1 year if armstead Buckner and Thomas
Has more sacks than
10 years of Tomlinson, Leonard Williams, bj hill and dexter Lawrence
Glad that’s settled.
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In comment 14774326 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
I think it shows you really need both sides of the ball to be avg or above avg to win consistently
The giants have an average offense
The giants have a bottom 3 defense
If people can figure out where to spend the draft picks and money in the off-season they are just wrong.
The only people stuck in a box are those in the
FiX tHe oLiNE
Group
Henry is incredible, but a second round pick.
Give me hope that there are intelligent giants fans out there
+99999
Quote:
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
Unless of course you're playing TN.
So much of the NFL is matchups.
TN will prove to be a champion when their running game falters, and the QB has to make plays.
Or... If their running game doesn't falter!
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick. When defensive coordinators prepare a game plan vs the Giants it begins with "how can we keep Barkley from getting the ball in the open field?" and that's worth Barkley's weight in diamonds. He is as much a threat in the passing game as he is in the running game.
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In comment 14774336 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
In comment 14774326 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
I think it shows you really need both sides of the ball to be avg or above avg to win consistently
The giants have an average offense
The giants have a bottom 3 defense
If people can figure out where to spend the draft picks and money in the off-season they are just wrong.
But they don't have an average offense. Their offense sucks. The giants were 23rd in offensive efficiency and they had an extremely easy schedule. You aren't going anywhere with that crummy of an offense as well. But one thing you got to do is protect Jones. Young QB's cna get ruined. That's why the need for an OLINE.
GMEn are't SUper Bowl contenders next year anyways. If they have $90m to spend
IN FA:
get the best edge rusher you can and it looks like they are also going hard after LWill.
Also get COnklin.
Look to get any defense with ILB the top priority whatever you can afford. If ILB no good get a Safety or CB.
IN DRAFT:
get a LT and a Center
In rds 3,5 and 6 all defense.
Depending on what you to above in FA you might be able to go after a Tight End in one of the later rounds.
In 2020 you want a WR and more defense.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick. When defensive coordinators prepare a game plan vs the Giants it begins with "how can we keep Barkley from getting the ball in the open field?" and that's worth Barkley's weight in diamonds. He is as much a threat in the passing game as he is in the running game.
there are only two more options on top of those, covering and passing. and clearly you wont' say those aren't important as if you can't cover then it doesn't matter if you can defend the run bc teams will just pass, and if you can pass better than anyone can stop the run you'll only pass. again reductive thinking at its finest. and thus why the game is cyclical.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick.
I can't believe right now you think he was worth the pick. As of this moment he has NOT been worth the pick. I think it is possible he can be- but one thing is DG has to get him an OL. I find it pathetic that posters like you give him a pass this year. He sucked. Take off your blue shades.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
Unless a team is behind by 5 TDs, more often than not they are going to run the ball on 1st down (again I’m just saying the majority of the time). How much yardage you get determines everything you do for the rest of that set of downs. Let me speak in very general terms, again, I’m simplifying this on purpose...
If you run the ball and pick up 6 yards, you have a major advantage over the defense:
-you can run it again, especially because you’re apparently running it well.
- you can go play action and the defense is more likely to get caught for a big play if they know you are running the call well
-you can simply drop back and run a pass play, and the defense is forced to defend the shorter routes because it’s a shorter down and distance, but then having to cover those routes (and the flats) opens up the deeper and intermediate routes!
If you get stopped for no gain and it’s 2nd and 10, your options are suddenly limited:
-play action doesn’t work as well because the defense knows you suck at running the ball
- you probably have to throw it because you damn sure aren’t going anywhere with the run
-you probably throw it so as to take 2 shots at throwing for the 1st down instead of just 1 on 3rd down.
-the defense knows you’re throwing it so already you’re at a disadvantage.
Running the ball on 1st down and picking up 5-6 yards is like a batter getting to a 2-0 count. You have so many more options and the defense has to adapt their game based on the situation in a way that favors you.
That’s why you have to be able to run the ball and stop the run. On offense: of course you still may be a team that get most of your yardage through the air, but you’re simply not going to be a powerhouse passing team unless you at least have a competent running game. That’s why just looking up total rushing yards for a team and saying “oh look they made the playoffs and they’re 21st in rushing blah blah blah” is stupid. That’s not what it’s about. It’s about the fact that having a competent running game opens up your entire playbook and makes things extremely difficult on a defense.
Unless you have one of the best QBs in the league and they can just throw the ball all game and continuously put together scoring drives (a la Mahomes). But if you don’t have that, and you simply have a fairly good and explosive passing offense but no running game, then sure you may get hot and get a bunch of yards and points, but if you can’t keep that up all game then what’s going to happen? You keep passing and when your drives fail that means you’ve thrown incomplete passes and not taken much time off the clock. The other team is going to get a higher number of possessions. Furthermore continuously passing is just more dangerous in terms of committing turnovers.
So okay you try to run the ball and when you can’t run it you go 3 and out, thinking you were trying to be conservative and “eat some clock” , yet again the other team gets more opportunities.
The point is, generally speaking, you need to be able to run the ball and stop the run. Of course there will always be exceptions that prove the rule, such as Mahomes who is simply an exceptional QB (as is Reid as a play caller). Also the west coast offense is an exception of sorts because it uses short passes as runs in a way. But tbh I’ve always felt that was why Reid has never gotten over the hump. His offense is awesome to watch and can put up a ton of yards and points and he’s a genius so he wins a lot of games, but IMO the west coast offense is playing with fire. If you’re passing game suddenly hits a slump in the middle of the game the other team is going to start getting a lot of opportunities to come back. It’s also harder to successfully pass in January (i.e. the playoffs).
I just see passing in general to be a more volatile venture than running the ball. That’s why most of the time championship teams at least have a “bread and butter” running game they can always come back to. That’s not to say they run for 200 yards every game and that’s the only way to win, it’s just that they have it there when they need it... to open up the playbook, to convert in the red zone or on 3rd and short when they need it, to preserve a lead, etc.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
He sucks?
A lot of us don't get it because we know your point is bullshit. You say he wasn't worth the pick. Yet he was. Just because the Giants have not built a line for him does not make the pick bad. He has not lost his ability.
And to prove your point you must definitively say who was there that was better than him and as we all know, there wasn't anybody better than him.
Your problem should be with the coaching that did not develop the line in front of him or the play calling that does not fully utilize his talent.
There is nothing wrong with the player. And just because YOU don't like taking a RB that high doesn't make the pick bad. What makes it bad to you is because you don't think a RB should be taken at #2. Wasn't that long ago that taking a Guard in the top 5-10 was looked down on as well as DT.
It's harder to win with this style of football nowadays.
It is will be much easier to put the pieces in place to execute and they are on their way with some parts.
The bigger question will be if Jones and Judge are up to the task imo.
Giants anemic pass rush is a MAJOR problem that needs to be addressed as well as our trash secondary. The Bucs and the Jets were great at stopping the run this year but neither is in the playoffs.
Teams know they can throw for 400 yards on us no problem. Need to balance out our defense instead of loading up on run stuffing hog mollies. We can sign and draft all of the run stuffers in the world but if we can't stop or even slow the passing game it won't matter.
Quote:
?
Whenever they can actually acquire offensive lineman. All this talk about schemes and creativity is just a continuation of the excuse making that has been going on since we hired Ben McAdoo to quick slant us back to contention.
Gettleman has acquired several offensive linemen. It's just that Mr. Hawg Mawllies can't seem to identify enough good ones and gets oddly attached to shitty ones like Halapio.
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In comment 14774294 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774277 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
That's what makes it a correlation. If you have to introduce another factor (like stopping the pass), the correlation to winning no longer exists for stopping the run.
I mean, that's just basic logic.
I have an idea - let's see Resume Dave use his team-building philosophy to get us to 9 wins in a single season instead of needing two years to get there, and then we can let it go.
Until then, it's just another soundbite from a blowhard GM that likes the sound of his own voice.
That philosophy has permeated his approach to the game: Draft big, powerful people to play on both sides of the ball, grind out a rushing game behind a hog-type line (fortified by three tight ends when necessary), stuff the run on defense and, when the other team passes, make sure the routes are short and the receivers are funneled to the linebackers. Big people attacking little people. It's a rather brutal concept, and on Sunday it resulted in a whopping advantage in possession time—40:33 to 19:27—that left the Bills' defenders groggy and rubber-legged in the Florida humidity at Tampa Stadium.
The Parcells approach is an answer to the new trends, the blue plate specials of 1990, like the run-and-shoot and Buffalo's three-wideout, no-huddle offense. It's a rather quaint reversion to the days before sock 'em gave way to slick 'em. Someone asked Parcells if Super Bowl XXV had vindicated his system. "It's always been vindicated," he said. "It's the new stuff that had something to prove."
At it's core, football remains the same.
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2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick.
I can't believe right now you think he was worth the pick. As of this moment he has NOT been worth the pick. I think it is possible he can be- but one thing is DG has to get him an OL. I find it pathetic that posters like you give him a pass this year. He sucked. Take off your blue shades.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
This is just typical Milton. He's still firmly entrenched on Cam Robinson being an all-pro OT while many Jags fans want to move him to OG (or the bench). And so it is with Barkley as well - once Milton has formed his opinion on a player, it doesn't change despite evidence to the contrary.
DG quit missing on your hog mollies
Then we can figure out the best way to win
Titans OL coach - ( New Window )
It’s bizarre.
The real question is to what degree can we incorporate outside zone runs ala falcons/9ers.
The Ravens ran for 185 yards last night. They lead the league in rushing this year. They are also home early. They are a team built to run the ball and they do it exceptionally well. They didn’t win a playoff game.
You win in the NFL by winning matchups. Can your OL beat their DL? Can their corners cover your receivers? Can you control the ball and keep a high powered offense off the field?
Catch phrases are all well and good, but in the end they are just noise. Winning in the NFL is not some sort of simple formula that was lost 30 years ago.
Titans got some nice turnovers to stop Balt drives and score easier themselves, but good luck building a gameplan on forcing turnovers...
Figure Harbaugh is pondering some of his decisions as well this morning...
Packers was ranked 32nd the year before, yet they won the SB.
But the Titans pulled an upset over the Ravens running the ball, so let's throw that history out and base everything on one weekend of playoff football.
The lesson we should draw is that the running game can be more important in the playoffs than the regular season. Also, a battering ram RB, like Henry, is more effective in the playoffs. And a dominant run blocking OL can control the game in the playoffs IF you get ahead and don't turn the ball over.
But there are still many different ways to win championships.
Giants running game at end of 2011 and during the playoffs was more productive than most of that regular season.
In fact, I would argue that bit of difference in offensive balance was one of several key reasons they got thru the playoffs...
Who the hell is Sy'56?
Titans got some nice turnovers to stop Balt drives and score easier themselves, but good luck building a gameplan on forcing turnovers...
The Ravens got a lot of empty yards in the middle of the field and got stopped twice on 4th and 1 deep in Titan's territory. Once the field got short, the Ravens could not move the ball and I think they passed on two FGs(?).
The real stat is who is playing the best team defense and offense at the end - not who you play, when you play them (BP). Right now, Henry is unstoppable. Tenn did not run like this during the regular season. Balt lost because of 5 turnovers/4th down stops. Each remaining team does alot of things good and bad, just gotta get playing clean football at the end.
I suspect if you look at teams who have made the playoffs and teams who have won playoffs games over a significant sample size, you’d see passing the ball well in this era is more advantageous. But that’s a guess.
It’s a trend/counter trend league. You can bet Belichick is prepping to go Air Raid right now as teams build toward the trenches.
You can pull simple conclusions and tweet silly isms to support any claim.
As far as the Giants, if they are going run first, they need a ton of help. They’ve had a pretty average run game the last two years.
Titans got some nice turnovers to stop Balt drives and score easier themselves, but good luck building a gameplan on forcing turnovers...
Didn’t take long for someone to sneak in a shitty stat argument from the Ravens game.
The Titans were playing prevent by the end of the 3rd quarter.
Sometimes when you win, you really lose, and sometimes when you lose, you really win, and sometimes when you win or lose, you actually tie, and sometimes when you tie, you actually win or lose. Winning or losing is all one organic mechanism, from which one extracts what one needs.
WMCJ
Now that droopy is gone, we may, and i underline the word may, see barkley running at full usage
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so not sure how defense won that game.
Titans got some nice turnovers to stop Balt drives and score easier themselves, but good luck building a gameplan on forcing turnovers...
Didn’t take long for someone to sneak in a shitty stat argument from the Ravens game.
The Titans were playing prevent by the end of the 3rd quarter.
See if this helps...the Ravens had over 300 yards by the end of the 3QTR which was right on track for their normal 400 or so yards that they averaged for 16 regular season games.
Oh and that happened to be #2 in the league only behind Dallas.
Is that a shitty stat too?
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In comment 14774580 Jimmy Googs said:
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so not sure how defense won that game.
Titans got some nice turnovers to stop Balt drives and score easier themselves, but good luck building a gameplan on forcing turnovers...
Didn’t take long for someone to sneak in a shitty stat argument from the Ravens game.
The Titans were playing prevent by the end of the 3rd quarter.
See if this helps...the Ravens had over 300 yards by the end of the 3QTR which was right on track for their normal 400 or so yards that they averaged for 16 regular season games.
Oh and that happened to be #2 in the league only behind Dallas.
Is that a shitty stat too?
Yea, still pretty shitty. Anyone who actually watched the game knows whatever stats the ravens put up were empty.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick. When defensive coordinators prepare a game plan vs the Giants it begins with "how can we keep Barkley from getting the ball in the open field?" and that's worth Barkley's weight in diamonds. He is as much a threat in the passing game as he is in the running game.
+1
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He sucked. Take off your blue shades.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
He sucks?
A lot of us don't get it because we know your point is bullshit. You say he wasn't worth the pick. Yet he was. Just because the Giants have not built a line for him does not make the pick bad. He has not lost his ability.
And to prove your point you must definitively say who was there that was better than him and as we all know, there wasn't anybody better than him.
Your problem should be with the coaching that did not develop the line in front of him or the play calling that does not fully utilize his talent.
There is nothing wrong with the player. And just because YOU don't like taking a RB that high doesn't make the pick bad. What makes it bad to you is because you don't think a RB should be taken at #2. Wasn't that long ago that taking a Guard in the top 5-10 was looked down on as well as DT.
what a load of crap.
first of let's distinguish between your reply to me when you asked "SB sucks?" vs "This year he sucked." SO when yousay "he sucks" - he "sucked" this year.
You think this season was all about the OLIne?
SO when he got hurt, it was the OLINE's fault?
When he was a turnstile blocking it was the OLIne's fault?
Excluding the TB game-- 5 of his 12 other games he ran for 66 yards or less - and that is what you expect for a number 2 overall draft pick?
In summary-- so he misses games basically 4 games and that isn't his fault (despite the fact the argument not to draft a RB so high is that they would miss too many games!). He blocks like shit and that isn't his fault.
And he is blameless for nay bad running game. IN other words for some like you-- it's never his fault????
*****Here's a newsflash for you: If his OLINE sucks which turns out over his career he never did much - and as a result the team never does shit (never make the playoffs or make it 1 or 2 times in 10 years without one playoff victory)-- then it would mean the team has underperformed - the pick the GMEN with a RB 2nd overall would have been blunder. Some of you have to realize the idea is to win football games, not accumulate stats that don't lead to wins. Because the GMEN didn't know how to support him, then it means they wasted the pick and should have gone in a different direction.
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so not sure how defense won that game.
Titans got some nice turnovers to stop Balt drives and score easier themselves, but good luck building a gameplan on forcing turnovers...
Didn’t take long for someone to sneak in a shitty stat argument from the Ravens game.
The Titans were playing prevent by the end of the 3rd quarter.
As BB sums up and ends all discussion, you judge a D by points allowed, TOs, and yards. In that order.
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He sucked. Take off your blue shades.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
He sucks?
A lot of us don't get it because we know your point is bullshit. You say he wasn't worth the pick. Yet he was. Just because the Giants have not built a line for him does not make the pick bad. He has not lost his ability.
And to prove your point you must definitively say who was there that was better than him and as we all know, there wasn't anybody better than him.
Your problem should be with the coaching that did not develop the line in front of him or the play calling that does not fully utilize his talent.
There is nothing wrong with the player. And just because YOU don't like taking a RB that high doesn't make the pick bad. What makes it bad to you is because you don't think a RB should be taken at #2. Wasn't that long ago that taking a Guard in the top 5-10 was looked down on as well as DT.
As for drafting SB-- I've said on here many times that I have no problem taking a RB like SB with the 2nd pick PROVIDED THEY GIVE HIM AN OLINE.
It's only that I got an open mind. I realize if they aren't going to fix the OLINE to be AT LEAST better than just a decent/mediocre one-- then SB is a wasted pick because he'll never be that generational RB needed to win enough football games.
WINNING IS WHAT MATTERS> NOT STATISTICS. The number 2 overall pick is supposed to lead you eventually to winning. Until you win - unless the guy is doing something super outstanding on his own-- then that player was obviously not the right pick for this particular team.
SHOW ME. Don't TELL ME. That's how all of us fans should be. You just want to TELL ME that the pick was good regardless of wins and losses. Not exclusively what I just said but to further that if he gets hurt etc you just want to make excuses. SB has been on team two years and one year he was wasted mostly due to injury. And posters such as yourself want to ignore the injury angle because it doesn't support your narrative. Yet posters how didn't want him cite the injury angle as to why you shouldn't have taken him the RB. How can you or anyone else say they are wrong when in 2 years they've already been proven right that RB's get hurt too easily. In year 2 he already got hurt and it affected his play.
Anyways- I'm with ya-- I think eventually they can possibly win with RB being the big wheel-- but SHOW ME instead of your meaningless excuses talk. In year 2 SB showed us shit. Take off your blue shades.
0-4 for Ravens...just another shitty stat
Green Bay has a pretty damn good running game.
You clearly don’t understand analytics at all. Analytics don’t give you an answers they just help people like coaches make more informed decisions. It’s up to the coaches to determine what they make of information analytics provides.
Also it all depends on the data that you collect. If the data is crap then the analytics will be crap and vice versa. So at the end of the day, we have absolutely no idea who is looking at what data, if that data is good or bad, and whether they are actually reading it correctly.
So is playoff football still about running and stopping the run?
So is playoff football still about running and stopping the run?
If we're going to use cliche's, how about "There's more than one way to skin a cat?"
Almost all the professionals, anyway. Some teams draft running backs second overall when they need a quarterback and a pass rusher.
It delayed everything 2 years, but the fork in the road was hiring Shurmur a few months prior. Looking back on it now, everything about the Shurmur hire was to get more out of Eli for one more retool.
Based on Judge’s presser, it appears there is a fresh perspective. It’s too bad we wasted 2 years though.
The move to get an aging LT is Solder during a rebuild was wrong. Not only wrong but stupid. Instead of him, Omameh, Stewart and then wasting money on Ogeltree and/or Martin they could have gotten two YOUNGER Olinemen at near the same cost as what they spent for SOlder, Stewart and Omameh.
Then wasting our money on Tate who does nothing for the future rebuild of this football instead of for example get a guy like Morse.
Wiht Dg - we just have had someone who is ben grosly negligent buidling this OLIEN. He has hish chance yet again. Get Barkley a good OLIen in which he is't getting hit in the backfield or at the LOS - imo he'll become a weapon that DG envisioned. But he needs to his head out of his ass and stop screwing around with and get some quality.
The Giants have to stop living in the past and realize good offenses are a must considering how far away the defense is. But I fear DG is like many on here that think football is all about defense. You win with both but just look at all the teams in the last 6 years that have been to the super bowl and all but one had a top 8 efficient offense. It's time to get that OLINE fixed then you'll see SB become a beast. But I have little confidence that DG is capable of doing this.
He was the RoY.
When you watch him, he is exciting.
You can win games with SB.
Calling him terrible or the pick terrible makes it easy for others to attack legitimate criticisms of the pick.
Most running backs have a short shelf life. There is a meter running. Long career RBs are outliers.
The Giants have won nine games in 2 seasons after spending the the number 2 pick on him. He didn't help Eli in year 1 or DJ in year 2 win a meaningful amount of games. The return on him so far is poor. This is fact.
Do you think this team contends for a championship before his rookie contract expires?
SB does not hurt your championship chances now. When he is being paid 15 plus million a year and the wear and tire sets in, he might be a huge obstacle to winning if he loses just a touch of the explosiveness.
I don't think it is a black and white issue. The clock is ticking though. if we do not win some meaningful games soon it was a wasted pick and it will not be debatable.
Generating consistently positive yardage.
Instead, he is a high-variability roulette wheel where your rushing game can explode for big yardage or, pretty often, lose a few yards, putting his team into a down & distance problem.
I'm not saying I absolutely believe that yet but I am starting to lean towards it.
Generating consistently positive yardage.
Instead, he is a high-variability roulette wheel where your rushing game can explode for big yardage or, pretty often, lose a few yards, putting his team into a down & distance problem.
I'm not saying I absolutely believe that yet but I am starting to lean towards it.
I think that's part of it, and part of it has been incompetence around him. The problem now is we're on the eve of making a contract decision on him to reset the RB market.
Meanwhile, the comments above about Barkley are just stupid. Before we make any assessment, we need to see him run behind a real OL. I cannot believe people here are questioning him when the guy was getting hit two yards behind the line on what felt like 50% of this carries.
Ok, after 1st half of SF/GB....your serve:)
Generating consistently positive yardage.
Instead, he is a high-variability roulette wheel where your rushing game can explode for big yardage or, pretty often, lose a few yards, putting his team into a down & distance problem.
I'm not saying I absolutely believe that yet but I am starting to lean towards it.
I’ll say it.
He’s a fucking loser, and the loser GM is going to pay this loser $20 mil a season.
According to Football-Outsiders - in the last 6 years between the champion and runner-up 11 teams had a top 8 ranked offense while only 5 of 12 had a top 8 ranked defense.
why does this matter? Are you trying to say there is only one way the Giants can ever win?
So it is impossible that Gettleman will ever trade down as well, right?
So is playoff football still about running and stopping the run?
Do you seriously imagine using the Chiefs under Andy Reid and Patrick Mahomes is some kind of statistical model? That is foolhardiness to the highest degree imaginable.
And the Giants could have hired Reid to succeed Coughlin, and drafted Mahomes instead of holding onto the corpse of Eli Manning - which might have both happened if in fact they went after Reid the minute Philly let him go - which at least a few on BBI advocated. Although many Pooh poohed Reid - since he's never once won an SB in a long and otherwise extremely successful career as HC.
But pointing to the single best and very unique QB and one of the consistently top 2-3 offensive coaches in the league as some type of statistical model - which is what you are doing when you cite KC and Mahomes as a model of how to win - is foolish.
I expect a better argument than that from you, Terps'.
It's also why I advocate drafting a RB with either the 3rd round comp pick or the early 4th round pick if there is an explosive back (i.e., LSU's Clyde Edwards-Helaire) available at the time. If Barkley is what makes the Giants offense tick, we don't want it on life support every time he suffers and injury.
31 times, the Super Bowl champion had a top-5 scoring defense.
28 times, the Super Bowl champion had a top-5 scoring offense.
I don't think "do the math" means what you think it means.
Do the research.
It's also why I advocate drafting a RB with either the 3rd round comp pick or the early 4th round pick if there is an explosive back (i.e., LSU's Clyde Edwards-Helaire) available at the time. If Barkley is what makes the Giants offense tick, we don't want it on life support every time he suffers and injury.
If Daniel Jones is going to be terrific why can't you have an explosive offense? why not have an even more "identity" using an explosive offense?
You run so you CAN pass.
Nobody saw the 3rd and 8 td? Running in third and 8 is exactly what Macadoo and shurmur would never do, ergo, 'A ' gap blitz sack ...loose 8... 4th and 16.