The best scenario is when a four man front can stop the run and rush the passer. Leaves you 7 to defend the pass. If it takes 8 or 9 guys in the box to stop the run - you are dead. If it takes 8 to defend the pass you are dead.
Running the ball and stopping the run is essentially a prerequisite to winning in the playoffs. Even more so now with the lack of quality QBs around the league.
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: like watching Phillipsburg HS Â
We had big rivalries with schools in northern Jersey and western PA. Schools like Hunterdon Central, Vorhees, North Hunterdon, Easton, Bethlehem Catholic, Nazareth, Northampton, etc.
The Easton rivalry is legendary. Every year we play them in football on Thanksgiving at Lafayette College. It's over 110 games. ESPN has covered it a few times.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
Can you explain why
Kc
LAR
NE
all last year were the worst in the league at stopping the run? If it’s so hard to win if you give up 5 YPC as a defense, how did they win all those games?
I’ll even strike off KC because their offense was a once in a decade performance
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
The league caught up to all those offenses.
This is a conversation about personnel though, not raw stats. The 49ers had the best pass defense in the league this year. Their only star is a 31 yo Richard Sherman.
As I see it, you’re trying to make the point Gettleman has wasted too many resources on “run stopping” DL, I could be wrong. But Armstead, Buckner, Thomas, were all great run stoppers coming out of college that had to develop their pass rush.
What exactly is so outdated about stopping the run? Dalvin Cook had 18 yards on 9 carries and that entire offense fell apart. That 49ers team could not cover Stefon Diggs but because the Vikings couldn’t use play action, they couldn’t get the ball to him. That starts from stopping the run.
We had big rivalries with schools in northern Jersey and western PA. Schools like Hunterdon Central, Vorhees, North Hunterdon, Easton, Bethlehem Catholic, Nazareth, Northampton, etc.
The Easton rivalry is legendary. Every year we play them in football on Thanksgiving at Lafayette College. It's over 110 games. ESPN has covered it a few times.
The wrestling rivalry is very intense.
Not as far South as the name would imply. We're not even the farthest south school in the Shore Conference. Only about 20 mins south of Toms River which is pretty much in the center of the State, North-South wise.
I never got why it was named that. Same with a school like Eastern Regional which isn't exactly in the Eastern part of the State lol. Actually Eastern fits us better as it doesn't get much more Eastern than Manahawkin/LBI.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
Can you explain why
Kc
LAR
NE
all last year were the worst in the league at stopping the run? If it’s so hard to win if you give up 5 YPC as a defense, how did they win all those games?
I’ll even strike off KC because their offense was a once in a decade performance
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
The league caught up to all those offenses.
This is a conversation about personnel though, not raw stats. The 49ers had the best pass defense in the league this year. Their only star is a 31 yo Richard Sherman.
As I see it, you’re trying to make the point Gettleman has wasted too many resources on “run stopping” DL, I could be wrong. But Armstead, Buckner, Thomas, were all great run stoppers coming out of college that had to develop their pass rush.
What exactly is so outdated about stopping the run? Dalvin Cook had 18 yards on 9 carries and that entire offense fell apart. That 49ers team could not cover Stefon Diggs but because the Vikings couldn’t use play action, they couldn’t get the ball to him. That starts from stopping the run.
1 year if armstead Buckner and Thomas
Has more sacks than
10 years of Tomlinson, Leonard Williams, bj hill and dexter Lawrence
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
I think it shows you really need both sides of the ball to be avg or above avg to win consistently
The giants have an average offense
The giants have a bottom 3 defense
If people can figure out where to spend the draft picks and money in the off-season they are just wrong.
Just last year Armstead and Thomas were rumored to be on the trading block because of bad play, but here you are singing their praises. You don’t know what Tomlinson or Williams is going to become, you do realize that right?
'dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesn't correlate to winning' Â
it's not better to try to score more points than your opponent than it is to focus on those two thing. i mean shit, why'd we pick a qb 6 overall last year if only running is important.
1. Obviously you need balance on both sides of the ball. That's why Gettleman adds you have to rush the passer into the mix. But the whole point of "you need to run the ball and stop the run" is that it gives you the chance to win. If you can't run the ball than you can't protect a lead and your QB is going to get killed. And if you can't stop the run, your offense won't get on the field, you may as well not even show up. So being a winning team begins with being able to run the ball and stop the run. It doesn't end there, but that's where it begins. It's the starting point for everything you want to do. Gettleman adds rushing the passer, because the inability to rush the passer negates the whole point of stopping the run.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick. When defensive coordinators prepare a game plan vs the Giants it begins with "how can we keep Barkley from getting the ball in the open field?" and that's worth Barkley's weight in diamonds. He is as much a threat in the passing game as he is in the running game.
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
I think it shows you really need both sides of the ball to be avg or above avg to win consistently
The giants have an average offense
The giants have a bottom 3 defense
If people can figure out where to spend the draft picks and money in the off-season they are just wrong.
But they don't have an average offense. Their offense sucks. The giants were 23rd in offensive efficiency and they had an extremely easy schedule. You aren't going anywhere with that crummy of an offense as well. But one thing you got to do is protect Jones. Young QB's cna get ruined. That's why the need for an OLINE.
GMEn are't SUper Bowl contenders next year anyways. If they have $90m to spend
IN FA:
get the best edge rusher you can and it looks like they are also going hard after LWill.
Also get COnklin.
Look to get any defense with ILB the top priority whatever you can afford. If ILB no good get a Safety or CB.
IN DRAFT:
get a LT and a Center
In rds 3,5 and 6 all defense.
Depending on what you to above in FA you might be able to go after a Tight End in one of the later rounds.
1. Obviously you need balance on both sides of the ball. That's why Gettleman adds you have to rush the passer into the mix. But the whole point of "you need to run the ball and stop the run" is that it gives you the chance to win. If you can't run the ball than you can't protect a lead and your QB is going to get killed. And if you can't stop the run, your offense won't get on the field, you may as well not even show up. So being a winning team begins with being able to run the ball and stop the run. It doesn't end there, but that's where it begins. It's the starting point for everything you want to do. Gettleman adds rushing the passer, because the inability to rush the passer negates the whole point of stopping the run.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick. When defensive coordinators prepare a game plan vs the Giants it begins with "how can we keep Barkley from getting the ball in the open field?" and that's worth Barkley's weight in diamonds. He is as much a threat in the passing game as he is in the running game.
there are only two more options on top of those, covering and passing. and clearly you wont' say those aren't important as if you can't cover then it doesn't matter if you can defend the run bc teams will just pass, and if you can pass better than anyone can stop the run you'll only pass. again reductive thinking at its finest. and thus why the game is cyclical.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick.
I can't believe right now you think he was worth the pick. As of this moment he has NOT been worth the pick. I think it is possible he can be- but one thing is DG has to get him an OL. I find it pathetic that posters like you give him a pass this year. He sucked. Take off your blue shades.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
Is that yes obviously running the ball and stopping the run in and of itself does not win football games, but the point is the effect that the running game has on the passing game is of utmost importance. The effect of the passing game on the running game is not nearly as obvious in football.
Unless a team is behind by 5 TDs, more often than not they are going to run the ball on 1st down (again I’m just saying the majority of the time). How much yardage you get determines everything you do for the rest of that set of downs. Let me speak in very general terms, again, I’m simplifying this on purpose...
If you run the ball and pick up 6 yards, you have a major advantage over the defense:
-you can run it again, especially because you’re apparently running it well.
- you can go play action and the defense is more likely to get caught for a big play if they know you are running the call well
-you can simply drop back and run a pass play, and the defense is forced to defend the shorter routes because it’s a shorter down and distance, but then having to cover those routes (and the flats) opens up the deeper and intermediate routes!
If you get stopped for no gain and it’s 2nd and 10, your options are suddenly limited:
-play action doesn’t work as well because the defense knows you suck at running the ball
- you probably have to throw it because you damn sure aren’t going anywhere with the run
-you probably throw it so as to take 2 shots at throwing for the 1st down instead of just 1 on 3rd down.
-the defense knows you’re throwing it so already you’re at a disadvantage.
Running the ball on 1st down and picking up 5-6 yards is like a batter getting to a 2-0 count. You have so many more options and the defense has to adapt their game based on the situation in a way that favors you.
That’s why you have to be able to run the ball and stop the run. On offense: of course you still may be a team that get most of your yardage through the air, but you’re simply not going to be a powerhouse passing team unless you at least have a competent running game. That’s why just looking up total rushing yards for a team and saying “oh look they made the playoffs and they’re 21st in rushing blah blah blah” is stupid. That’s not what it’s about. It’s about the fact that having a competent running game opens up your entire playbook and makes things extremely difficult on a defense.
You need a running game to be able to consistently preserve a lead.
Unless you have one of the best QBs in the league and they can just throw the ball all game and continuously put together scoring drives (a la Mahomes). But if you don’t have that, and you simply have a fairly good and explosive passing offense but no running game, then sure you may get hot and get a bunch of yards and points, but if you can’t keep that up all game then what’s going to happen? You keep passing and when your drives fail that means you’ve thrown incomplete passes and not taken much time off the clock. The other team is going to get a higher number of possessions. Furthermore continuously passing is just more dangerous in terms of committing turnovers.
So okay you try to run the ball and when you can’t run it you go 3 and out, thinking you were trying to be conservative and “eat some clock” , yet again the other team gets more opportunities.
The point is, generally speaking, you need to be able to run the ball and stop the run. Of course there will always be exceptions that prove the rule, such as Mahomes who is simply an exceptional QB (as is Reid as a play caller). Also the west coast offense is an exception of sorts because it uses short passes as runs in a way. But tbh I’ve always felt that was why Reid has never gotten over the hump. His offense is awesome to watch and can put up a ton of yards and points and he’s a genius so he wins a lot of games, but IMO the west coast offense is playing with fire. If you’re passing game suddenly hits a slump in the middle of the game the other team is going to start getting a lot of opportunities to come back. It’s also harder to successfully pass in January (i.e. the playoffs).
I just see passing in general to be a more volatile venture than running the ball. That’s why most of the time championship teams at least have a “bread and butter” running game they can always come back to. That’s not to say they run for 200 yards every game and that’s the only way to win, it’s just that they have it there when they need it... to open up the playbook, to convert in the red zone or on 3rd and short when they need it, to preserve a lead, etc.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
He sucks?
A lot of us don't get it because we know your point is bullshit. You say he wasn't worth the pick. Yet he was. Just because the Giants have not built a line for him does not make the pick bad. He has not lost his ability.
And to prove your point you must definitively say who was there that was better than him and as we all know, there wasn't anybody better than him.
Your problem should be with the coaching that did not develop the line in front of him or the play calling that does not fully utilize his talent.
There is nothing wrong with the player. And just because YOU don't like taking a RB that high doesn't make the pick bad. What makes it bad to you is because you don't think a RB should be taken at #2. Wasn't that long ago that taking a Guard in the top 5-10 was looked down on as well as DT.
doesn't feature a lot of physical, traditional power teams anymore. Bama was the last and Saban opted to switch to the spread and its' largely worked out for them.
It's harder to win with this style of football nowadays.
No one made the playoffs on the arms of Garoppolo, Cousins, and Tannehill. Today gives us a different angle with the Texans/Chiefs game. Seahawks/Packers are more balanced offenses too. As Judge said you build around what you have and the teams today have elite passing QBs, yesterdays teams did not (Lamar Jackson is great but has a different skillset than Mahomes and Rodgers).
Giants anemic pass rush is a MAJOR problem that needs to be addressed as well as our trash secondary. The Bucs and the Jets were great at stopping the run this year but neither is in the playoffs.
Teams know they can throw for 400 yards on us no problem. Need to balance out our defense instead of loading up on run stuffing hog mollies. We can sign and draft all of the run stuffers in the world but if we can't stop or even slow the passing game it won't matter.
RE: RE: So when are the Giants going to start running the ball Â
Whenever they can actually acquire offensive lineman. All this talk about schemes and creativity is just a continuation of the excuse making that has been going on since we hired Ben McAdoo to quick slant us back to contention.
Gettleman has acquired several offensive linemen. It's just that Mr. Hawg Mawllies can't seem to identify enough good ones and gets oddly attached to shitty ones like Halapio.
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
That's what makes it a correlation. If you have to introduce another factor (like stopping the pass), the correlation to winning no longer exists for stopping the run.
All this just to double down on the sentiment that our GM has outdated philosophies. Let it go
I have an idea - let's see Resume Dave use his team-building philosophy to get us to 9 wins in a single season instead of needing two years to get there, and then we can let it go.
Until then, it's just another soundbite from a blowhard GM that likes the sound of his own voice.
The late great Dr. Z wrote this after Super Bowl XXV in SI Â
"Power wins football games," Parcells repeated endlessly amidst the postgame locker room turmoil. "Power wins football games."
That philosophy has permeated his approach to the game: Draft big, powerful people to play on both sides of the ball, grind out a rushing game behind a hog-type line (fortified by three tight ends when necessary), stuff the run on defense and, when the other team passes, make sure the routes are short and the receivers are funneled to the linebackers. Big people attacking little people. It's a rather brutal concept, and on Sunday it resulted in a whopping advantage in possession time—40:33 to 19:27—that left the Bills' defenders groggy and rubber-legged in the Florida humidity at Tampa Stadium.
The Parcells approach is an answer to the new trends, the blue plate specials of 1990, like the run-and-shoot and Buffalo's three-wideout, no-huddle offense. It's a rather quaint reversion to the days before sock 'em gave way to slick 'em. Someone asked Parcells if Super Bowl XXV had vindicated his system. "It's always been vindicated," he said. "It's the new stuff that had something to prove."
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick.
I can't believe right now you think he was worth the pick. As of this moment he has NOT been worth the pick. I think it is possible he can be- but one thing is DG has to get him an OL. I find it pathetic that posters like you give him a pass this year. He sucked. Take off your blue shades.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
This is just typical Milton. He's still firmly entrenched on Cam Robinson being an all-pro OT while many Jags fans want to move him to OG (or the bench). And so it is with Barkley as well - once Milton has formed his opinion on a player, it doesn't change despite evidence to the contrary.
Recruited OL for quickness off the snap and balance and like the falcons did, and use misdirection etc and moving the QB on the counter side to great effect in context of instant runs.
that Is just not an absolute at all. The second half of the year, the Giants fun defense was decent. Barkley got healthy and started running better. But they didn’t start piling up wins. If you can’t defend the pass, nobody needs to run the ball on you.
The Ravens ran for 185 yards last night. They lead the league in rushing this year. They are also home early. They are a team built to run the ball and they do it exceptionally well. They didn’t win a playoff game.
You win in the NFL by winning matchups. Can your OL beat their DL? Can their corners cover your receivers? Can you control the ball and keep a high powered offense off the field?
Catch phrases are all well and good, but in the end they are just noise. Winning in the NFL is not some sort of simple formula that was lost 30 years ago.
And btw - the Ravens had more than 500 yards of offense Â
Running the ball and stopping the run is essentially a prerequisite to winning in the playoffs. Even more so now with the lack of quality QBs around the league.
Unless of course you're playing TN.
So much of the NFL is matchups.
TN will prove to be a champion when their running game falters, and the QB has to make plays.
Quote:
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
Which HS are you from?
Southern Rams
Your deep in south Jersey.
We had big rivalries with schools in northern Jersey and western PA. Schools like Hunterdon Central, Vorhees, North Hunterdon, Easton, Bethlehem Catholic, Nazareth, Northampton, etc.
The Easton rivalry is legendary. Every year we play them in football on Thanksgiving at Lafayette College. It's over 110 games. ESPN has covered it a few times.
The wrestling rivalry is very intense.
Quote:
In comment 14774353 jwebb20 said:
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In comment 14774347 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774302 jwebb20 said:
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In comment 14774294 BleedBlue said:
Quote:
In comment 14774277 jwebb20 said:
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Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
Can you explain why
Kc
LAR
NE
all last year were the worst in the league at stopping the run? If it’s so hard to win if you give up 5 YPC as a defense, how did they win all those games?
I’ll even strike off KC because their offense was a once in a decade performance
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
The league caught up to all those offenses.
This is a conversation about personnel though, not raw stats. The 49ers had the best pass defense in the league this year. Their only star is a 31 yo Richard Sherman.
As I see it, you’re trying to make the point Gettleman has wasted too many resources on “run stopping” DL, I could be wrong. But Armstead, Buckner, Thomas, were all great run stoppers coming out of college that had to develop their pass rush.
What exactly is so outdated about stopping the run? Dalvin Cook had 18 yards on 9 carries and that entire offense fell apart. That 49ers team could not cover Stefon Diggs but because the Vikings couldn’t use play action, they couldn’t get the ball to him. That starts from stopping the run.
Quote:
Which HS are you from?
Southern Rams
Your deep in south Jersey.
We had big rivalries with schools in northern Jersey and western PA. Schools like Hunterdon Central, Vorhees, North Hunterdon, Easton, Bethlehem Catholic, Nazareth, Northampton, etc.
The Easton rivalry is legendary. Every year we play them in football on Thanksgiving at Lafayette College. It's over 110 games. ESPN has covered it a few times.
The wrestling rivalry is very intense.
Not as far South as the name would imply. We're not even the farthest south school in the Shore Conference. Only about 20 mins south of Toms River which is pretty much in the center of the State, North-South wise.
I never got why it was named that. Same with a school like Eastern Regional which isn't exactly in the Eastern part of the State lol. Actually Eastern fits us better as it doesn't get much more Eastern than Manahawkin/LBI.
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In comment 14774357 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 14774353 jwebb20 said:
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In comment 14774347 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 14774302 jwebb20 said:
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In comment 14774294 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 14774277 jwebb20 said:
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Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
No
I fully got it
I was just trying to correct you
again...you dont stop the run, its hard to win....
you run successfully, you boost your chances in a major way. the point is running with success and stopping the run doesn correlate to winning if you arent total dogshit(like the giants this year) versus the pass
Can you explain why
Kc
LAR
NE
all last year were the worst in the league at stopping the run? If it’s so hard to win if you give up 5 YPC as a defense, how did they win all those games?
I’ll even strike off KC because their offense was a once in a decade performance
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
The league caught up to all those offenses.
This is a conversation about personnel though, not raw stats. The 49ers had the best pass defense in the league this year. Their only star is a 31 yo Richard Sherman.
As I see it, you’re trying to make the point Gettleman has wasted too many resources on “run stopping” DL, I could be wrong. But Armstead, Buckner, Thomas, were all great run stoppers coming out of college that had to develop their pass rush.
What exactly is so outdated about stopping the run? Dalvin Cook had 18 yards on 9 carries and that entire offense fell apart. That 49ers team could not cover Stefon Diggs but because the Vikings couldn’t use play action, they couldn’t get the ball to him. That starts from stopping the run.
1 year if armstead Buckner and Thomas
Has more sacks than
10 years of Tomlinson, Leonard Williams, bj hill and dexter Lawrence
Glad that’s settled.
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In comment 14774326 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
Quote:
Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
I think it shows you really need both sides of the ball to be avg or above avg to win consistently
The giants have an average offense
The giants have a bottom 3 defense
If people can figure out where to spend the draft picks and money in the off-season they are just wrong.
The only people stuck in a box are those in the
FiX tHe oLiNE
Group
Henry is incredible, but a second round pick.
Give me hope that there are intelligent giants fans out there
+99999
Quote:
Stopping the run is not as valuable as rushing the passer or defending the pass
Unless of course you're playing TN.
So much of the NFL is matchups.
TN will prove to be a champion when their running game falters, and the QB has to make plays.
Or... If their running game doesn't falter!
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick. When defensive coordinators prepare a game plan vs the Giants it begins with "how can we keep Barkley from getting the ball in the open field?" and that's worth Barkley's weight in diamonds. He is as much a threat in the passing game as he is in the running game.
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In comment 14774336 jwebb20 said:
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In comment 14774326 BigBlueDownTheShore said:
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Usually on defense it’s a give and take because you can’t have pro bowl players at every position
You sacrifice the ability to defend the run to defend the pass
That was what got LAR and NE to the Super Bowl
I hate to say it-- but you are right in a way. But let me ask you these 3 questions:
Why do you think Barkley was chosen?
If passing is so important then why not give your passer the best possible protection you can?
DO you acknowledge that in the last 6 years the teams that played in the Super Bowl overall had among the top 8 efficient offenses in all of football except just 1 team?
I think it shows you really need both sides of the ball to be avg or above avg to win consistently
The giants have an average offense
The giants have a bottom 3 defense
If people can figure out where to spend the draft picks and money in the off-season they are just wrong.
But they don't have an average offense. Their offense sucks. The giants were 23rd in offensive efficiency and they had an extremely easy schedule. You aren't going anywhere with that crummy of an offense as well. But one thing you got to do is protect Jones. Young QB's cna get ruined. That's why the need for an OLINE.
GMEn are't SUper Bowl contenders next year anyways. If they have $90m to spend
IN FA:
get the best edge rusher you can and it looks like they are also going hard after LWill.
Also get COnklin.
Look to get any defense with ILB the top priority whatever you can afford. If ILB no good get a Safety or CB.
IN DRAFT:
get a LT and a Center
In rds 3,5 and 6 all defense.
Depending on what you to above in FA you might be able to go after a Tight End in one of the later rounds.
In 2020 you want a WR and more defense.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick. When defensive coordinators prepare a game plan vs the Giants it begins with "how can we keep Barkley from getting the ball in the open field?" and that's worth Barkley's weight in diamonds. He is as much a threat in the passing game as he is in the running game.
there are only two more options on top of those, covering and passing. and clearly you wont' say those aren't important as if you can't cover then it doesn't matter if you can defend the run bc teams will just pass, and if you can pass better than anyone can stop the run you'll only pass. again reductive thinking at its finest. and thus why the game is cyclical.
2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick.
I can't believe right now you think he was worth the pick. As of this moment he has NOT been worth the pick. I think it is possible he can be- but one thing is DG has to get him an OL. I find it pathetic that posters like you give him a pass this year. He sucked. Take off your blue shades.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
Unless a team is behind by 5 TDs, more often than not they are going to run the ball on 1st down (again I’m just saying the majority of the time). How much yardage you get determines everything you do for the rest of that set of downs. Let me speak in very general terms, again, I’m simplifying this on purpose...
If you run the ball and pick up 6 yards, you have a major advantage over the defense:
-you can run it again, especially because you’re apparently running it well.
- you can go play action and the defense is more likely to get caught for a big play if they know you are running the call well
-you can simply drop back and run a pass play, and the defense is forced to defend the shorter routes because it’s a shorter down and distance, but then having to cover those routes (and the flats) opens up the deeper and intermediate routes!
If you get stopped for no gain and it’s 2nd and 10, your options are suddenly limited:
-play action doesn’t work as well because the defense knows you suck at running the ball
- you probably have to throw it because you damn sure aren’t going anywhere with the run
-you probably throw it so as to take 2 shots at throwing for the 1st down instead of just 1 on 3rd down.
-the defense knows you’re throwing it so already you’re at a disadvantage.
Running the ball on 1st down and picking up 5-6 yards is like a batter getting to a 2-0 count. You have so many more options and the defense has to adapt their game based on the situation in a way that favors you.
That’s why you have to be able to run the ball and stop the run. On offense: of course you still may be a team that get most of your yardage through the air, but you’re simply not going to be a powerhouse passing team unless you at least have a competent running game. That’s why just looking up total rushing yards for a team and saying “oh look they made the playoffs and they’re 21st in rushing blah blah blah” is stupid. That’s not what it’s about. It’s about the fact that having a competent running game opens up your entire playbook and makes things extremely difficult on a defense.
Unless you have one of the best QBs in the league and they can just throw the ball all game and continuously put together scoring drives (a la Mahomes). But if you don’t have that, and you simply have a fairly good and explosive passing offense but no running game, then sure you may get hot and get a bunch of yards and points, but if you can’t keep that up all game then what’s going to happen? You keep passing and when your drives fail that means you’ve thrown incomplete passes and not taken much time off the clock. The other team is going to get a higher number of possessions. Furthermore continuously passing is just more dangerous in terms of committing turnovers.
So okay you try to run the ball and when you can’t run it you go 3 and out, thinking you were trying to be conservative and “eat some clock” , yet again the other team gets more opportunities.
The point is, generally speaking, you need to be able to run the ball and stop the run. Of course there will always be exceptions that prove the rule, such as Mahomes who is simply an exceptional QB (as is Reid as a play caller). Also the west coast offense is an exception of sorts because it uses short passes as runs in a way. But tbh I’ve always felt that was why Reid has never gotten over the hump. His offense is awesome to watch and can put up a ton of yards and points and he’s a genius so he wins a lot of games, but IMO the west coast offense is playing with fire. If you’re passing game suddenly hits a slump in the middle of the game the other team is going to start getting a lot of opportunities to come back. It’s also harder to successfully pass in January (i.e. the playoffs).
I just see passing in general to be a more volatile venture than running the ball. That’s why most of the time championship teams at least have a “bread and butter” running game they can always come back to. That’s not to say they run for 200 yards every game and that’s the only way to win, it’s just that they have it there when they need it... to open up the playbook, to convert in the red zone or on 3rd and short when they need it, to preserve a lead, etc.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
He sucks?
A lot of us don't get it because we know your point is bullshit. You say he wasn't worth the pick. Yet he was. Just because the Giants have not built a line for him does not make the pick bad. He has not lost his ability.
And to prove your point you must definitively say who was there that was better than him and as we all know, there wasn't anybody better than him.
Your problem should be with the coaching that did not develop the line in front of him or the play calling that does not fully utilize his talent.
There is nothing wrong with the player. And just because YOU don't like taking a RB that high doesn't make the pick bad. What makes it bad to you is because you don't think a RB should be taken at #2. Wasn't that long ago that taking a Guard in the top 5-10 was looked down on as well as DT.
It's harder to win with this style of football nowadays.
It is will be much easier to put the pieces in place to execute and they are on their way with some parts.
The bigger question will be if Jones and Judge are up to the task imo.
Giants anemic pass rush is a MAJOR problem that needs to be addressed as well as our trash secondary. The Bucs and the Jets were great at stopping the run this year but neither is in the playoffs.
Teams know they can throw for 400 yards on us no problem. Need to balance out our defense instead of loading up on run stuffing hog mollies. We can sign and draft all of the run stuffers in the world but if we can't stop or even slow the passing game it won't matter.
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Whenever they can actually acquire offensive lineman. All this talk about schemes and creativity is just a continuation of the excuse making that has been going on since we hired Ben McAdoo to quick slant us back to contention.
Gettleman has acquired several offensive linemen. It's just that Mr. Hawg Mawllies can't seem to identify enough good ones and gets oddly attached to shitty ones like Halapio.
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In comment 14774294 BleedBlue said:
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In comment 14774277 jwebb20 said:
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Stopped the run
T-3 best in YPC given up (3.8)
30th in PPG given up (28)
thats pretty dumb stat. stopping the run ALONE doesnt correlate to winning, you have to be at least average vs the pass. we are a joke against the pass. you need balance on both sides oft he ball. that being said running and stopping the run goes a LONG way in winning. think about the offense struggles we have when teams stop thew run, we are constantly in third and longs...
I think you nailed it when you said
Stopping the run doesn’t correlate to winning
you have selective reading huh? i said stopping the run ALONE....one more time ALONE. ALONE ALONE ALONE
got it?
That's what makes it a correlation. If you have to introduce another factor (like stopping the pass), the correlation to winning no longer exists for stopping the run.
I mean, that's just basic logic.
I have an idea - let's see Resume Dave use his team-building philosophy to get us to 9 wins in a single season instead of needing two years to get there, and then we can let it go.
Until then, it's just another soundbite from a blowhard GM that likes the sound of his own voice.
That philosophy has permeated his approach to the game: Draft big, powerful people to play on both sides of the ball, grind out a rushing game behind a hog-type line (fortified by three tight ends when necessary), stuff the run on defense and, when the other team passes, make sure the routes are short and the receivers are funneled to the linebackers. Big people attacking little people. It's a rather brutal concept, and on Sunday it resulted in a whopping advantage in possession time—40:33 to 19:27—that left the Bills' defenders groggy and rubber-legged in the Florida humidity at Tampa Stadium.
The Parcells approach is an answer to the new trends, the blue plate specials of 1990, like the run-and-shoot and Buffalo's three-wideout, no-huddle offense. It's a rather quaint reversion to the days before sock 'em gave way to slick 'em. Someone asked Parcells if Super Bowl XXV had vindicated his system. "It's always been vindicated," he said. "It's the new stuff that had something to prove."
At it's core, football remains the same.
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2. Barkley is as valuable as any non-QB in the league. I can't believe people are still debating whether or not he was worth the pick.
I can't believe right now you think he was worth the pick. As of this moment he has NOT been worth the pick. I think it is possible he can be- but one thing is DG has to get him an OL. I find it pathetic that posters like you give him a pass this year. He sucked. Take off your blue shades.
Yes- I think he can be great -- but year 2 he sucked. OFC it had to do a lot with the injury but that was the point of NOT taking him. Don't you get that?????!!!!! So far he has NOT been worth it.
This is just typical Milton. He's still firmly entrenched on Cam Robinson being an all-pro OT while many Jags fans want to move him to OG (or the bench). And so it is with Barkley as well - once Milton has formed his opinion on a player, it doesn't change despite evidence to the contrary.
DG quit missing on your hog mollies
Then we can figure out the best way to win
Titans OL coach - ( New Window )
It’s bizarre.
The real question is to what degree can we incorporate outside zone runs ala falcons/9ers.
The Ravens ran for 185 yards last night. They lead the league in rushing this year. They are also home early. They are a team built to run the ball and they do it exceptionally well. They didn’t win a playoff game.
You win in the NFL by winning matchups. Can your OL beat their DL? Can their corners cover your receivers? Can you control the ball and keep a high powered offense off the field?
Catch phrases are all well and good, but in the end they are just noise. Winning in the NFL is not some sort of simple formula that was lost 30 years ago.
Titans got some nice turnovers to stop Balt drives and score easier themselves, but good luck building a gameplan on forcing turnovers...