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Garoppolo throws for 130 yards and Tannehill for 80 ...

Jim from Katonah : 1/12/2020 12:17 am
... in two blowout playoff wins. At least for one day, the clocks have been turned back. It seemed like only yesterday the league had become a video game. Good stuff today. Letís see about tomorrow with Mahomes and Watson, and Rodgers and Wilson.
.  
jwebb20 : 1/12/2020 12:19 am : link
Defense
Wins
Championships
RE: .  
Jim from Katonah : 1/12/2020 12:21 am : link
In comment 14774390 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
Defense
Wins
Championships


Ever since the Pats shut down the Rams, things seem to be slowly reverting to form. Man, defenses evolve quick.
RE: .  
JerryNicklebag : 1/12/2020 1:01 am : link
In comment 14774390 jwebb20 said:
Quote:
Defense
Wins
Championships

And being able to run the football/control the clock
We could be that team.  
Blue Dream : 1/12/2020 1:14 am : link
Let's draft Isaiah Simmons to cover TE's, sign a pass rusher (Clowney?), shore up the OL and find a thunder to compliment our lightning (Barkley) and away we go!
RE: We could be that team.  
Leg of Theismann : 1/12/2020 1:24 am : link
In comment 14774450 Blue Dream said:
Quote:
Let's draft Isaiah Simmons to cover TE's, sign a pass rusher (Clowney?), shore up the OL and find a thunder to compliment our lightning (Barkley) and away we go!


I was just thinking last night even before watching Henry today: I'd be totally fine with the Giants using a draft pick on a RB who is simply a violent ball-carrier, someone who is physical and punishes the defense. I think that would help Barkley out a lot, soften up the defense a little bit, and get Bark-man some rest and "load-management".

Anyone know of a back coming out in 2020 who would be perfect for this? I'm not talking a 1st round pick, I'm talking about a later round pick. Preferably as late as possible, but if we get a 3rd round comp pick and the value is right I'd be fine with taking an RB in the 4th/5th round IF he fits this description and is BPA. All depends on what we do in FA as well, but I'm just saying I think it should be on the table.
RE: We could be that team.  
MookGiants : 1/12/2020 1:41 am : link
In comment 14774450 Blue Dream said:
Quote:
Let's draft Isaiah Simmons to cover TE's, sign a pass rusher (Clowney?), shore up the OL and find a thunder to compliment our lightning (Barkley) and away we go!


The Giants are so far behind the rest of the league as far as OL and DL goes. Drafting a running back when you have a disaster of an OL was remarkably dumb. A good line will make for a good running game, even if you have average running backs.
Shore up the offensive line  
MookGiants : 1/12/2020 1:42 am : link
makes it sound like we have a couple of pieces to work with and build upon.

Hernandez is the only piece that might be good on the entire oine. In an ideal world Hernandez is the 3rd best lineman for the Giants. The line situation is just as bad if not worse than it was 2 years ago which is hard to fathom
RE: RE: We could be that team.  
Leg of Theismann : 1/12/2020 3:39 am : link
In comment 14774463 MookGiants said:
Quote:
In comment 14774450 Blue Dream said:


Quote:


Let's draft Isaiah Simmons to cover TE's, sign a pass rusher (Clowney?), shore up the OL and find a thunder to compliment our lightning (Barkley) and away we go!



The Giants are so far behind the rest of the league as far as OL and DL goes. Drafting a running back when you have a disaster of an OL was remarkably dumb. A good line will make for a good running game, even if you have average running backs.


You're right that usually the logic is: build a good OL and it will make average RBs look great. Usually not the other way around.

But, Barkley was so consistently good in 2018, that he averaged 5.0 ypa behind that atrocious OL (4.6 ypa in 2019 but he fighting through injury for a chunk of the season). Gallman meanwhile has averaged ~3.5 ypa behind the same OL, and most on this board consider Gallman a decent back. So many people say "why not just draft an RB in round 3/4 it wouldn't make much of a difference." Well, we have proof that it does make a difference in watching Gallman. Gallman is what our running game would be if we never drafted Saquon.

Barkley is one of those few RBs in history who can take a bad OL and elevate a running game to a material extent. Barry Sanders was like that, and Barkley has at times looked as good as Sanders.

All that said, without an OL, Barkley isn't single-handedly winning us the division, he has just made our running game look respectable. But I do believe with an improved OL, even just an average or slightly above average OL, our running game with Barkley could be one of the best in the league. That's why Gettleman took him at #2, because plain and simply he is special. I don't buy people setting these hard and fast rules that you just "don't draft an RB at #2". Like, really? So you wouldn't draft Barry Sanders if he as available at #2? Sanders carried an AWFUL Lions team to multiple playoff trips.

It IS possible for a RB to make that much of a difference, it's simply rare. Barkley is the type of RB who can take a running game that should be ranked 32nd in the league and make it 18th in the league, so ipso facto, when he has an actual OL in front of him, he'll be able to take a running game that should be ranked 15th and make a top 5 rushing attack. At some point the Giants are going to get this OL right (via FA, draft, coaching, scheme, etc.) and when that happens I can guarantee you people will stop killing the Barkley pick.

All in all, Barkley is not the reason why we are a bad team right now. It's not like we could have drafted an entire OL with that #2 pick, we could only pick one player, and Quenton Nelson was not going to be able to play all 5 OL positions.
RE: Shore up the offensive line  
section125 : 1/12/2020 7:06 am : link
In comment 14774465 MookGiants said:
Quote:
makes it sound like we have a couple of pieces to work with and build upon.

Hernandez is the only piece that might be good on the entire oine. In an ideal world Hernandez is the 3rd best lineman for the Giants. The line situation is just as bad if not worse than it was 2 years ago which is hard to fathom


Did you forget Zeitler, who is even better than Hernandez?

I want to see what Judge does in evaluating our own players and then getting a good line coach. Wasn't too long ago Weston Richburg was drummed out of town as a weakling center. Now he is considered NFL upper echelon playing for San Francisco. What changed?

I was looking at the names of the playoff OL the past couple weeks. A few names are recognizable, most are not.

It may very well be that our guys are mostly bad. But I have always been skeptical that Solder turned to dogshit when he changed teams. He was never a top shelf LT, but he was serviceable. What happened? And don't tell me age. 30-32 is not over the hill for OLine.
I also  
mdthedream : 1/12/2020 8:59 am : link
feel the NFL has allowed more grabbing by the DB this year. a lot more pass interference is being let go.
RE: RE: RE: We could be that team.  
markky : 1/12/2020 9:00 am : link
In comment 14774475 Leg of Theismann said:
Quote:
In comment 14774463 MookGiants said:


Quote:


In comment 14774450 Blue Dream said:


Quote:


Let's draft Isaiah Simmons to cover TE's, sign a pass rusher (Clowney?), shore up the OL and find a thunder to compliment our lightning (Barkley) and away we go!



The Giants are so far behind the rest of the league as far as OL and DL goes. Drafting a running back when you have a disaster of an OL was remarkably dumb. A good line will make for a good running game, even if you have average running backs.



You're right that usually the logic is: build a good OL and it will make average RBs look great. Usually not the other way around.

But, Barkley was so consistently good in 2018, that he averaged 5.0 ypa behind that atrocious OL (4.6 ypa in 2019 but he fighting through injury for a chunk of the season). Gallman meanwhile has averaged ~3.5 ypa behind the same OL, and most on this board consider Gallman a decent back. So many people say "why not just draft an RB in round 3/4 it wouldn't make much of a difference." Well, we have proof that it does make a difference in watching Gallman. Gallman is what our running game would be if we never drafted Saquon.

Barkley is one of those few RBs in history who can take a bad OL and elevate a running game to a material extent. Barry Sanders was like that, and Barkley has at times looked as good as Sanders.

All that said, without an OL, Barkley isn't single-handedly winning us the division, he has just made our running game look respectable. But I do believe with an improved OL, even just an average or slightly above average OL, our running game with Barkley could be one of the best in the league. That's why Gettleman took him at #2, because plain and simply he is special. I don't buy people setting these hard and fast rules that you just "don't draft an RB at #2". Like, really? So you wouldn't draft Barry Sanders if he as available at #2? Sanders carried an AWFUL Lions team to multiple playoff trips.

It IS possible for a RB to make that much of a difference, it's simply rare. Barkley is the type of RB who can take a running game that should be ranked 32nd in the league and make it 18th in the league, so ipso facto, when he has an actual OL in front of him, he'll be able to take a running game that should be ranked 15th and make a top 5 rushing attack. At some point the Giants are going to get this OL right (via FA, draft, coaching, scheme, etc.) and when that happens I can guarantee you people will stop killing the Barkley pick.

All in all, Barkley is not the reason why we are a bad team right now. It's not like we could have drafted an entire OL with that #2 pick, we could only pick one player, and Quenton Nelson was not going to be able to play all 5 OL positions.


The problem with this is that if the OL isn't good a back like Barkley, as spectacular as he is, cannot reliably be used to control the clock. The same with Sanders. Behind a bad line they might run off some long plays, but there is no guarantee that they can pound it for a first down. It's better to have a great OL and an average back than the other way around.
It only works if you have a great defense  
Vanzetti : 1/12/2020 9:05 am : link
BBI acts like all you have to do is run the ball and stop the run and you win!

Your defense has to be able to shut down the opponents' run and passing game. Stopping the passing game is actually paramount because that's generally how you win the turnover battle. Interceptions and QB fumbles account for 80% of turnovers.

The only way to have a great defense is to have guys who can get after the passer. Giants currently have none.

So, if the Giants can somehow add the next LT and Strahan, they can win a SB running the ball.
RE: We could be that team.  
Darth Paul : 1/12/2020 9:28 am : link
In comment 14774450 Blue Dream said:
Quote:
Let's draft Isaiah Simmons to cover TE's, sign a pass rusher (Clowney?), shore up the OL and find a thunder to compliment our lightning (Barkley) and away we go!


Nice!!
RE: Shore up the offensive line  
allstarjim : 1/12/2020 9:32 am : link
In comment 14774465 MookGiants said:
Quote:
makes it sound like we have a couple of pieces to work with and build upon.

Hernandez is the only piece that might be good on the entire oine. In an ideal world Hernandez is the 3rd best lineman for the Giants. The line situation is just as bad if not worse than it was 2 years ago which is hard to fathom


No it's not, not even close, and it's nuts people keep repeating this.

Starting line two years ago was Flowers Pugh Jones/Richburg Jerry Hart.

Thd only position that was better than what we had this year or even still today, if Gates were to be considered the starting RT, was the Center position. It's better now at the other 4.
Tannehill had 71 s  
jestersdead : 1/12/2020 9:34 am : link
through the first quarter and a half or something like that. Clearly the difference is, Derrick Henry and his 377 yards in 2 playoff games. Over his last 8 games he's rushed for 1,273 yards.
RE: I also  
BamaBlue : 1/12/2020 9:34 am : link
In comment 14774568 mdthedream said:
Quote:
feel the NFL has allowed more grabbing by the DB this year. a lot more pass interference is being let go.


In the playoffs and with good teams this true. For bad teams like the Giants, there was no 'benefit of the doubt'
Control...  
Brown_Hornet : 1/12/2020 10:25 am : link
...the LOS.

There are playmakers on every team that controls the LOS.

Teams that are losing at the POA appear to have more holes on their rosters than they really do.
Did the clocks turn back?  
ajr2456 : 1/12/2020 10:34 am : link
Or did both teams get up two scores and get conservative to protect the ball and rely on their great defenses to control the game?

I mean the Titans first two touchdowns were incredible passes.
Nevada RB Kelton Moore  
Tim in JTown : 1/12/2020 10:48 am : link
Late round pick?
Link - ( New Window )
Barkley is generational  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/12/2020 11:18 am : link
when healthy he routinely breaks a big run almost every single game behind a sh*t oline. We'll never see that again. The dumb on this forum.
RE: We could be that team.  
Coach Red Beaulieu : 1/12/2020 11:21 am : link
In comment 14774450 Blue Dream said:
Quote:
Let's draft Isaiah Simmons to cover TE's, sign a pass rusher (Clowney?), shore up the OL and find a thunder to compliment our lightning (Barkley) and away we go!

Warming to Simmons and some consolensce for losing out on Young, covering the TE is the crux of the problem a D needs to solve nowadays, if you don't have a horde of pass rushers like SF.
RE: Barkley is generational  
gmenatlarge : 1/12/2020 11:38 am : link
In comment 14774785 Coach Red Beaulieu said:
Quote:
when healthy he routinely breaks a big run almost every single game behind a sh*t oline. We'll never see that again. The dumb on this forum.


Crickey! I could have gone all offseason without hearing that LĒgenerationalĒ comment...
Garoppolo  
KWALL2 : 1/12/2020 11:46 am : link
Looked awful. He should have had 3 more picks. Tannehill just didnít have to throw. But he made some nice throws when he had to.
If you build your program around defense/run game/OL/toughness...  
Torrag : 1/12/2020 11:49 am : link
you're doing it the right way.
RE: Garoppolo  
Jimmy Googs : 1/12/2020 12:17 pm : link
In comment 14774845 KWALL2 said:
Quote:
Looked awful. He should have had 3 more picks. Tannehill just didnít have to throw. But he made some nice throws when he had to.


This is right on. Kudos to SF coaches who after seeing Jimmy Gs int. right before the half they weren't going to allow him to take chances in 2H and basically ran it and went conservative knowing defense was looking good.
RE: It only works if you have a great defense  
giantstock : 1/12/2020 2:01 pm : link
In comment 14774577 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
BBI acts like all you have to do is run the ball and stop the run and you win!

Your defense has to be able to shut down the opponents' run and passing game. Stopping the passing game is actually paramount because that's generally how you win the turnover battle. Interceptions and QB fumbles account for 80% of turnovers.

The only way to have a great defense is to have guys who can get after the passer. Giants currently have none.

So, if the Giants can somehow add the next LT and Strahan, they can win a SB running the ball.


Rome wasn't built in one day. And this past year we've had crummy play on both sides of the ball. AT least you'll get a slightly above average offense if you get two quality OLINEmen.

The defense needs a lot more to be mediocre.

If you dont get AT LEAST two quality OLINEMEN then next year we're probably going to have to endure another 5-11 type of season (and we cna hear Giants mgmt crow how they did better - which ofc sucks) unless all the defensive FA's and draft picks are home runs.

Get yourself three quality oLInemen and at least you'll be watching a good offense. I think based on FA and the draft they are capable of getting three quality OLINEMEN and either two or maybe even three quality defensive players.
RE: We could be that team.  
BillT : 1/12/2020 2:52 pm : link
In comment 14774450 Blue Dream said:
Quote:
Let's draft Isaiah Simmons to cover TE's, sign a pass rusher (Clowney?), shore up the OL and find a thunder to compliment our lightning (Barkley) and away we go!

And cure cancer while we're at it!
RE: RE: Shore up the offensive line  
MookGiants : 1/12/2020 3:11 pm : link
In comment 14774494 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14774465 MookGiants said:


Quote:


makes it sound like we have a couple of pieces to work with and build upon.

Hernandez is the only piece that might be good on the entire oine. In an ideal world Hernandez is the 3rd best lineman for the Giants. The line situation is just as bad if not worse than it was 2 years ago which is hard to fathom



Did you forget Zeitler, who is even better than Hernandez?

I want to see what Judge does in evaluating our own players and then getting a good line coach. Wasn't too long ago Weston Richburg was drummed out of town as a weakling center. Now he is considered NFL upper echelon playing for San Francisco. What changed?

I was looking at the names of the playoff OL the past couple weeks. A few names are recognizable, most are not.

It may very well be that our guys are mostly bad. But I have always been skeptical that Solder turned to dogshit when he changed teams. He was never a top shelf LT, but he was serviceable. What happened? And don't tell me age. 30-32 is not over the hill for OLine.


If Zeitler is better than Hernandez than we're fucked, because Zeitler is at best average. Zeitler needs to be the 4th or 5th best lineman on the team. There isn't one guy ont he entire line that I wouldn't be trying to upgrade
Can we please  
MookGiants : 1/12/2020 3:14 pm : link
stop this "generational" bullshit with Barkley.

Let him actually play consistently at a generational level first. Even when healthy this year he was wildly inconsistent
RE: I also  
EricJ : 1/12/2020 9:08 pm : link
In comment 14774568 mdthedream said:
Quote:
a lot more pass interference is being let go.


As it should....
People expect any contact to result in PI. This is a contact sport.
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