but how do you even know what the playcalls were??
Quote:
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
For example, against the Steelers, they ran an all out blitz at the end of the half when it was 3rd and 20 from the Dolphins 45. This resulted in a TD for the Steelers.
I think the Patriots system is a good idea in practice but that requires a very specific type of player to actually run. Belichick knows how to get players to fit what he wants to do.
Finding the right talent to play in this idea of a defense is going to be a challenge.
Absolutely.
There was a thread started a few days ago in which the OP we'd win something like three more games this year than we did last year. My take was "not so fast." I expect a fair amount of turmoil early on, and quite possibly a good deal of roster-turnover this year and next as Judge and his staff attempt to put together a roster "in their image." That's not going to happen overnight (if it happens at all, let's be honest).
but how do you even know what the playcalls were??
Quote:
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
I guess he got a transcript of every play being run and analyzed it, much like Brian Baldinger does.
On a side note, when we played Miami, the announcers made a point in telling us Miami’s weakness is their defensive line, and apparently they were right because we did abuse them. So, maybe in all fairness to Graham, he just didn’t have much to work with and tried to make the best with what he had. His defense surprisingly held the Patriots to 24 points in the last game to beat them. Don’t ask me how they only scored 24 when we scored in the 30s.
so this hire makes sense. He was well thought of by Carl Banks who knew of him when he coached here 2 years ago. I think he has done well in the places he's been. Seems as though Graham drank the NE Kool-Aid as well. Its like they were reciting from a manual.
Its so funny how so many people have formed opinions on this coach when they know nothing about him. I hope he can get the most out of the talent we have on this team and I expect a lot of upgrades on D to help him via mid level FAs that fit like they do in NE. Rarely do they dip into top end FA unless its a game changer, usually a CB.
I think the comment about Kitchens a few days ago is telling that he doesnt hire friends. Judge doesnt respect Kitchens as a coach.
RE: You want coaches with the same philosophy as you Â
extreme in the sense that A) teaching is more of what college coaches should do; and B) playcalling and creativity are just as important.
I mean I know they're not mutually exclusive, but from the way it's being presented it sounds like Graham is being put in the category of teacher rather than some sort of defensive mind. Ideally you want and really need both.
arent teaching guys for the NFL. Its EXTREMELY important to teach players the fundamentals and correct technique. Something this team is unbelievably poor at. This is not a one year fix.. no one is coming in here no matter who they are and fixing this mess in one year.
The Giants need to build a PROGRAM.. the teams that are the most successful in ANY sport have a program.. the Giants have no foundation.. no identity.. they need one.. badly..
extreme in the sense that A) teaching is more of what college coaches should do; and B) playcalling and creativity are just as important.
I mean I know they're not mutually exclusive, but from the way it's being presented it sounds like Graham is being put in the category of teacher rather than some sort of defensive mind. Ideally you want and really need both.
Judge stressed fundamentals in his presser, so I think the guys he is bringing in will play a big role in that as well.
RE: RE: Fairly impressive we could find anybody who Â
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Blah. The Panthers just hired the Colts DL coach on a lateral move. Sometimes guys don’t stand in the way of people they have a good relationship with
It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Blah. The Panthers just hired the Colts DL coach on a lateral move. Sometimes guys don’t stand in the way of people they have a good relationship with
.
Was his contract up as the DL coach with Colts?
That would be different if that were the case.
In Graham's case, A)it wasn't, and
B)worked with both Flores and Judge as members of the Pats staff, not exactly a compelling argument.
Key to depth for a team like the Giants is getting bottom round and UFDA's ready to play and step in. Think Patriots. Think rookie Malcolm Butler prepared in the right place and prepared to see the play when it matters
Cant execute anything exotic or scheme flexible until the foundation is in place.
They aren't going guru. They don't believe scheme wrinkles win enough games. They are preparing multiflex from multi players
It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
.
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
.
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
miami's offense couldn't sustain drives. they were like us in that everything collapsed in the second half more often than not
It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
.
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
awesome fan
I mean they had 4 wins and a defense ranked in the 30s. If being a bad fan means noting things that actually happened, being a fan is dumb.
Key to depth for a team like the Giants is getting bottom round and UFDA's ready to play and step in. Think Patriots. Think rookie Malcolm Butler prepared in the right place and prepared to see the play when it matters
Cant execute anything exotic or scheme flexible until the foundation is in place.
They aren't going guru. They don't believe scheme wrinkles win enough games. They are preparing multiflex from multi players
arent teaching guys for the NFL. Its EXTREMELY important to teach players the fundamentals and correct technique. Something this team is unbelievably poor at. This is not a one year fix.. no one is coming in here no matter who they are and fixing this mess in one year.
The Giants need to build a PROGRAM.. the teams that are the most successful in ANY sport have a program.. the Giants have no foundation.. no identity.. they need one.. badly..
That's nice and all, but what about the playcalling itself? Schemes are just as important to the success of a team.
Graham has got the teaching part down, supposedly, but what about the playcalling? Graham can teach our defense about the fundamentals of tackling, but if he calls a wrong play on defense and lets up a big play, what good will that lesson on tackling do?
Again, they're not mutually exclusive, but all this talk about the importance of a teacher and not enough about schemers, strategists and defensive minds/gurus rubs me the wrong way a bit.
but how do you even know what the playcalls were??
Quote:
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
For example, against the Steelers, they ran an all out blitz at the end of the half when it was 3rd and 20 from the Dolphins 45. This resulted in a TD for the Steelers.
How much time left in the half? I like a blitz on 3rd and 20. Pin your ears back time as they say on TV. Not to pile on but this is one example and I'm not sure its a good example.
You're not teaching pro players the three point stance. You're teaching them complicated schemes that must be executed by all 11 guys in a precise way. You're teaching them to unlearn things they have been taught before in order to play their position in the scheme and make it successful. Unfortunately, we've had players who failed to pick up systems before and were reading after week 3 we were going to have to simplify the system to make it work. Hopefully having a bunch of young guys gives us a higher probability of successs. Hopefully we bring in some guys in free agency who have thrived in multiple defensive systems.
Davon Godchaux DT
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
“We would all just love to run the same thing every week. That would [require] far less thinking. But on the flip side of that, if you run the same thing every week, coaches are smart; they will devise ways to combat it. If you keep running the same thing, there’s a counter to that: Here’s your weakness and we’re going to expose it. But if we change it up, it keeps other teams on their toes. We throw them off their game plan. But it does require more studying and thinking.”
Seems like we've been running the same D for 2 years. Thank the good lord we'll be changing that
“We would all just love to run the same thing every week. That would [require] far less thinking. But on the flip side of that, if you run the same thing every week, coaches are smart; they will devise ways to combat it. If you keep running the same thing, there’s a counter to that: Here’s your weakness and we’re going to expose it. But if we change it up, it keeps other teams on their toes. We throw them off their game plan. But it does require more studying and thinking.”
Seems like we've been running the same D for 2 years. Thank the good lord we'll be changing that
What concerns me is that Bettcher was supposed to be this guy that valued flexibility and I never saw any of this. That said, I trust Judge to make sure Graham follows through more than I did Shurmur.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
Don't know but 25th in 2017.
Point is, huge jumps are possible.
Point taken. Hopefully the Giants will play their cards right in free agency and the draft with regard to their defense. It sure would be nice to have at least one player that opposing offenses have to account for. I hope Graham is the goods, too, and can bring out the best in the guys we already have who underachieved this year.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
Don't know but 25th in 2017.
Point is, huge jumps are possible.
Point taken. Hopefully the Giants will play their cards right in free agency and the draft with regard to their defense. It sure would be nice to have at least one player that opposing offenses have to account for. I hope Graham is the goods, too, and can bring out the best in the guys we already have who underachieved this year.
DG screwed over the last DC, Graham won't fare any better without talent.
How did DG screw over Bettcher? By signing five of his old Cardinal players? By drafting Carter, Hill, and McIntosh in his first year, and Lawrence, Baker, Ximines, Connelly, Love, and Ballentine in his second?
To borrow from Vince McMahon, "Betch screwed Betch."
RE: RE: Won't matter if he doesn't get good players Â
DG screwed over the last DC, Graham won't fare any better without talent.
How did DG screw over Bettcher? By signing five of his old Cardinal players? By drafting Carter, Hill, and McIntosh in his first year, and Lawrence, Baker, Ximines, Connelly, Love, and Ballentine in his second?
To borrow from Vince McMahon, "Betch screwed Betch."
Not one of those players was an established NFL talent outside of 35 year old Bethea. The overwhelming majority of those cardinals had their best seasons 4 years ago in 2016. Even Golden, the one signing DG has made outside of Dixon and a bunch of other ST players that has worked out, he was thought to be a one year wonder until he proved he could still play in 2019 after fully recovering from his injuries.
No DC would have had any success with the utter crap DG gave Bettcher to work with.
You don't win 9 games over 2 years because of bad coaching. You guys constantly pin blame on Shurmur and Bettcher. Were they great coaches? Nope. But they were also set up to fail from day 1 with this roster. Nobody could have done better with this group.
Nobody did less with more than Bettcher. But thanks to him we got to see Kareem Martin, Olsen Pierre, and Antoine "Whiplash" Bethea in action. I'm looking forward to watching that highlight reel.
As for Shurmur he was just another example of the Peter Principle. He was a good coordinator who rose to the level of incompetence as a head coach. The NFL is littered with them.
go follow the Jets then
Quote:
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
For example, against the Steelers, they ran an all out blitz at the end of the half when it was 3rd and 20 from the Dolphins 45. This resulted in a TD for the Steelers.
Finding the right talent to play in this idea of a defense is going to be a challenge.
Absolutely.
There was a thread started a few days ago in which the OP we'd win something like three more games this year than we did last year. My take was "not so fast." I expect a fair amount of turmoil early on, and quite possibly a good deal of roster-turnover this year and next as Judge and his staff attempt to put together a roster "in their image." That's not going to happen overnight (if it happens at all, let's be honest).
Quote:
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
I guess he got a transcript of every play being run and analyzed it, much like Brian Baldinger does.
On a side note, when we played Miami, the announcers made a point in telling us Miami’s weakness is their defensive line, and apparently they were right because we did abuse them. So, maybe in all fairness to Graham, he just didn’t have much to work with and tried to make the best with what he had. His defense surprisingly held the Patriots to 24 points in the last game to beat them. Don’t ask me how they only scored 24 when we scored in the 30s.
every article i see says he calls the plays.
every article i see says he calls the plays.
He called the plays.
Its so funny how so many people have formed opinions on this coach when they know nothing about him. I hope he can get the most out of the talent we have on this team and I expect a lot of upgrades on D to help him via mid level FAs that fit like they do in NE. Rarely do they dip into top end FA unless its a game changer, usually a CB.
I think the comment about Kitchens a few days ago is telling that he doesnt hire friends. Judge doesnt respect Kitchens as a coach.
Or he just doesn't want to mix a personal relationship with business and possibly be in a position where he would have to fire a close friend.
Judge and Kitchens are friends and have been for years.
i like that graham uses the 46 bear alignment.
Also, he suggests that Glenn may not be out of the running for a position.
What's this reference about a quote?
Quote:
points out that only Dalvin Tomlinson remains from the 2016 defense. So the quote must have come from him.
Also, he suggests that Glenn may not be out of the running for a position.
What's this reference about a quote?
Seen this and was wondering the same? Can Eric or anyone follow up?
Be a fan, LETS GO!
I mean I know they're not mutually exclusive, but from the way it's being presented it sounds like Graham is being put in the category of teacher rather than some sort of defensive mind. Ideally you want and really need both.
The Giants need to build a PROGRAM.. the teams that are the most successful in ANY sport have a program.. the Giants have no foundation.. no identity.. they need one.. badly..
I mean I know they're not mutually exclusive, but from the way it's being presented it sounds like Graham is being put in the category of teacher rather than some sort of defensive mind. Ideally you want and really need both.
Judge stressed fundamentals in his presser, so I think the guys he is bringing in will play a big role in that as well.
Quote:
wanted to coach our current Defense...
+1 That was my first thought ")
Good Stuff
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Quote:
let him go?
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Blah. The Panthers just hired the Colts DL coach on a lateral move. Sometimes guys don’t stand in the way of people they have a good relationship with
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
Quote:
In comment 14775424 section125 said:
Quote:
let him go?
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Blah. The Panthers just hired the Colts DL coach on a lateral move. Sometimes guys don’t stand in the way of people they have a good relationship with
Was his contract up as the DL coach with Colts?
That would be different if that were the case.
In Graham's case, A)it wasn't, and
B)worked with both Flores and Judge as members of the Pats staff, not exactly a compelling argument.
Quote:
points out that only Dalvin Tomlinson remains from the 2016 defense. So the quote must have come from him.
Also, he suggests that Glenn may not be out of the running for a position.
What's this reference about a quote?
Quote I posted above from the player.
"That's great," one player who has worked extensively with Graham said after hearing about the hiring. "He's a good coach."
Usually need intense good coaching.
Usually career ends in 4 years.
Key to depth for a team like the Giants is getting bottom round and UFDA's ready to play and step in. Think Patriots. Think rookie Malcolm Butler prepared in the right place and prepared to see the play when it matters
Cant execute anything exotic or scheme flexible until the foundation is in place.
They aren't going guru. They don't believe scheme wrinkles win enough games. They are preparing multiflex from multi players
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
Quote:
It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
.
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
awesome fan
Quote:
let him go?
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
miami's offense couldn't sustain drives. they were like us in that everything collapsed in the second half more often than not
Quote:
In comment 14776567 bigblue5611_2 said:
Quote:
It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
.
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
awesome fan
I mean they had 4 wins and a defense ranked in the 30s. If being a bad fan means noting things that actually happened, being a fan is dumb.
Usually need intense good coaching.
Usually career ends in 4 years.
Key to depth for a team like the Giants is getting bottom round and UFDA's ready to play and step in. Think Patriots. Think rookie Malcolm Butler prepared in the right place and prepared to see the play when it matters
Cant execute anything exotic or scheme flexible until the foundation is in place.
They aren't going guru. They don't believe scheme wrinkles win enough games. They are preparing multiflex from multi players
Thanks, Bill. Good to see you back.
The Giants need to build a PROGRAM.. the teams that are the most successful in ANY sport have a program.. the Giants have no foundation.. no identity.. they need one.. badly..
That's nice and all, but what about the playcalling itself? Schemes are just as important to the success of a team.
Graham has got the teaching part down, supposedly, but what about the playcalling? Graham can teach our defense about the fundamentals of tackling, but if he calls a wrong play on defense and lets up a big play, what good will that lesson on tackling do?
Again, they're not mutually exclusive, but all this talk about the importance of a teacher and not enough about schemers, strategists and defensive minds/gurus rubs me the wrong way a bit.
Quote:
but how do you even know what the playcalls were??
Quote:
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
For example, against the Steelers, they ran an all out blitz at the end of the half when it was 3rd and 20 from the Dolphins 45. This resulted in a TD for the Steelers.
How much time left in the half? I like a blitz on 3rd and 20. Pin your ears back time as they say on TV. Not to pile on but this is one example and I'm not sure its a good example.
also Fitzmagic and the offense coughed up the ball 4 times.
too much is made over that call.
Heavens a Yale man!
Quote:
Davon Godchaux DT
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
And they won the damn game. Wow......
LMAO! I thought the same thing
Seems like we've been running the same D for 2 years. Thank the good lord we'll be changing that
Seems like we've been running the same D for 2 years. Thank the good lord we'll be changing that
What concerns me is that Bettcher was supposed to be this guy that valued flexibility and I never saw any of this. That said, I trust Judge to make sure Graham follows through more than I did Shurmur.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
The drafting of Nick Bosa was that franchise's Riker's Beard moment.
Dolphins asking defensive players to do things many teams don’t. - ( New Window )
Quote:
...in 2018.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
Don't know but 25th in 2017.
Point is, huge jumps are possible.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
Don't know but 25th in 2017.
Point is, huge jumps are possible.
Point taken. Hopefully the Giants will play their cards right in free agency and the draft with regard to their defense. It sure would be nice to have at least one player that opposing offenses have to account for. I hope Graham is the goods, too, and can bring out the best in the guys we already have who underachieved this year.
Quote:
...in 2018.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
Don't know but 25th in 2017.
Point is, huge jumps are possible.
Point taken. Hopefully the Giants will play their cards right in free agency and the draft with regard to their defense. It sure would be nice to have at least one player that opposing offenses have to account for. I hope Graham is the goods, too, and can bring out the best in the guys we already have who underachieved this year.
Amen to that!
How did DG screw over Bettcher? By signing five of his old Cardinal players? By drafting Carter, Hill, and McIntosh in his first year, and Lawrence, Baker, Ximines, Connelly, Love, and Ballentine in his second?
To borrow from Vince McMahon, "Betch screwed Betch."
Quote:
DG screwed over the last DC, Graham won't fare any better without talent.
How did DG screw over Bettcher? By signing five of his old Cardinal players? By drafting Carter, Hill, and McIntosh in his first year, and Lawrence, Baker, Ximines, Connelly, Love, and Ballentine in his second?
To borrow from Vince McMahon, "Betch screwed Betch."
Not one of those players was an established NFL talent outside of 35 year old Bethea. The overwhelming majority of those cardinals had their best seasons 4 years ago in 2016. Even Golden, the one signing DG has made outside of Dixon and a bunch of other ST players that has worked out, he was thought to be a one year wonder until he proved he could still play in 2019 after fully recovering from his injuries.
No DC would have had any success with the utter crap DG gave Bettcher to work with.
You don't win 9 games over 2 years because of bad coaching. You guys constantly pin blame on Shurmur and Bettcher. Were they great coaches? Nope. But they were also set up to fail from day 1 with this roster. Nobody could have done better with this group.
As for Shurmur he was just another example of the Peter Principle. He was a good coordinator who rose to the level of incompetence as a head coach. The NFL is littered with them.