Tom Pelissero
@TomPelissero
·
2m
The #Dolphins are expected to promote Josh Boyer to defensive coordinator, sources say. He replaces Patrick Graham, who’s leaving to become the #Giants’ DC.
Hoping he helps in improving our front seven. Seems to have done good work as position coach. You can't really blame him for the Dolphins defensive performance considering their lack of talent.
of anyone but James Bettcher and I like that the Giants are letting Judge pick his guys. Clearly he wanted to work with him again and it works out. Also, up until his late season surge, the best football Tomlinson played was under Graham as a rookie.
... for failing to find creative ways to generate a pass rush. So he should feel at home here. Miami Herald: Graham feels the heat for lack of heat. - ( New Window )
The Phins pass rush is so bad it makes the giants look like 49ers. Avery Moss was the opening day starting at one OLB spot across from bust Charles Harris.
was extremely bad. They had the kind of year where guys get fired and you don’t hear from them again, not given higher profile jobs. Last in the league in scoring defense. Last in the league according to Football Outsiders.
From Flores when he was hired by Miami: “Pat is a Yale guy. He’s extremely bright. He is great with the fundamentals and has very strong leadership ability. I can’t say enough good things about him. We worked together in New England and I know the type of passion he has and the way he works. We have a lot of the same core values and beliefs from a defensive standpoint.”
was extremely bad. They had the kind of year where guys get fired and you don’t hear from them again, not given higher profile jobs. Last in the league in scoring defense. Last in the league according to Football Outsiders.
The Dolphins had the least talented defense in the NFL by far without injuries. Then they traded Minkah and lost Xavien Howard for the year.
From Flores when he was hired by Miami: “Pat is a Yale guy. He’s extremely bright. He is great with the fundamentals and has very strong leadership ability. I can’t say enough good things about him. We worked together in New England and I know the type of passion he has and the way he works. We have a lot of the same core values and beliefs from a defensive standpoint.”
This is why he makes sense as a hire. judge needs someone who understands what he is trying instill here.
Davon Godchaux DT
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Art Stapleton
@art_stapleton
·
1m
Two years ago, a significant part of the Giants fan base was doing cartwheels over landing James Bettcher as defensive coordinator.
Just remember that as you're scrambling to form an opinion on Patrick Graham.
Jordan Raanan
@JordanRaanan
·
20s
Interesting hire. One year as a defensive coordinator. Miami, with minimal talent, finished 30th in total defense this season. Giants players thought highly of Graham during his previous stint with team as DL coach.
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
RE: These were the Dolphins starters for the final Pats game Â
Davon Godchaux DT
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
And they won the damn game. Wow......
don't mind the move per se but in total betwen judge and graham Â
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Why does anyone go crazy regarding these decisions? Â
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Yes. A lot more.
Steve Spagnuolo coached two defenses that were just as bad. Â
I think the 2012 Saints and 2015 Giants probably had more talent than the 2019 Dolphins. Also, after being outscored 163-26 in their first four games, the Dolphins were merely bad, not epically horrendous.
Linked to one of the earlier posts when Graham was mentioned as a "possible" was an interview from when he was hired by Miami.
The reporter said (something like) "The big question now is do you run a 3-4 or a 4-3?"
Patrick answer was "Yes".
And then he explained that there will be no fixed scheme; it will change each week depending on the opponent. "If one games we have to play 11 guys with their hand in the dirt, that's what we will do if that's what it takes."
Sound familiar? (He also stressed teaching.)
RE: These were the Dolphins starters for the final Pats game Â
Davon Godchaux DT
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
Not a lot to work with there. Then again, not a lot to work with here either.
From Flores when he was hired by Miami: “Pat is a Yale guy. He’s extremely bright. He is great with the fundamentals and has very strong leadership ability. I can’t say enough good things about him. We worked together in New England and I know the type of passion he has and the way he works. We have a lot of the same core values and beliefs from a defensive standpoint.”
From Flores when he was hired by Miami: “Pat is a Yale guy. He’s extremely bright. He is great with the fundamentals and has very strong leadership ability. I can’t say enough good things about him. We worked together in New England and I know the type of passion he has and the way he works. We have a lot of the same core values and beliefs from a defensive standpoint.”
Davon Godchaux DT - 5th
Christian Wilkins DT - 1st
John Jenkins DT - 3rd
Jerome Baker LB - 3rd
Andrew Van Ginkel LB - 5th
Trent Harris LB - UDFA
Calvin Munson LB - UDFA
Nik Needham CB - UDFA
Eric Rowe CB - 2nd
Adrian Colbert S - 7th
Nate Brooks S - UDFA
7 guys who went after the 5th round or went Undrafted. A rookie DT. Another DT that's been on 5 teams in 7 years. A CB whose been on 3 teams in 5 years.
So anybody expecting results is just fooling themselves. Not a single DC in the NFL could have a consistently good defense with players like that.
and he's a funny guy. Not that it makes a difference, but this is my best memory of him in Miami. lol Link - ( New Window )
From what I've read, JJ and Graham share the same values and philosophies about teaching and flexiblity of schemes. Both are very intelligent.
However JJ appears to be wound kinda tight and Graham is loose.
Maybe they can team up as good guy, bad guy :).
this choice. Going down the same route Pats Coaches often take. Go to new team, then hire position coaches from the Pats and try to recreate the Belichek system. Doesn't work. The Pats are all Belichek. Everything there is Belichek. Offense, defense and everything in between.
We need legit Coordinators over here.
this choice. Going down the same route Pats Coaches often take. Go to new team, then hire position coaches from the Pats and try to recreate the Belichek system. Doesn't work. The Pats are all Belichek. Everything there is Belichek. Offense, defense and everything in between.
We need legit Coordinators over here.
He's hired 1 Patriots coach. Who hasn't coached for the Patriots in 4 seasons.
this choice. Going down the same route Pats Coaches often take. Go to new team, then hire position coaches from the Pats and try to recreate the Belichek system. Doesn't work. The Pats are all Belichek. Everything there is Belichek. Offense, defense and everything in between.
We need legit Coordinators over here.
this choice. Going down the same route Pats Coaches often take. Go to new team, then hire position coaches from the Pats and try to recreate the Belichek system. Doesn't work. The Pats are all Belichek. Everything there is Belichek. Offense, defense and everything in between.
We need legit Coordinators over here.
All nfl coaches hire guys they know. Its how it works.
Davon Godchaux DT - 5th
Christian Wilkins DT - 1st
John Jenkins DT - 3rd
Jerome Baker LB - 3rd
Andrew Van Ginkel LB - 5th
Trent Harris LB - UDFA
Calvin Munson LB - UDFA
Nik Needham CB - UDFA
Eric Rowe CB - 2nd
Adrian Colbert S - 7th
Nate Brooks S - UDFA
7 guys who went after the 5th round or went Undrafted. A rookie DT. Another DT that's been on 5 teams in 7 years. A CB whose been on 3 teams in 5 years.
So anybody expecting results is just fooling themselves. Not a single DC in the NFL could have a consistently good defense with players like that.
Hmmm...somehow I don't think we'll be signing any of his former players to play for us.
it's from miami herald November 29th and explains very well a lot of what's different about the "NE system" (including why Minkah Fitzpatrick wanted out of it).
Quote:
Rowe, who has more experience with Flores than any player on the roster, said from his experience in New England for three years there and a season in Miami, believes most players exposed to the Belichick/Flores approach see the upside in it.
“Generally, people like it,” Rowe said. “You don’t hear people complain. You don’t hear anybody complain about, ‘Oh my God, I’ve got a lot of assignments this week! How am I going to play?’ They just study and get it done. No one really complains about it because we know we’re trying to take away their strengths. And the game is a lot easier when you take away their strengths.
“Whoever we’re playing, we’re trying to take away the strongest thing they have going for them. When you can do that, it’s smooth and easy.”
I'm ok with this hire because I think that NE system, if deployed correctly, can become exceptionally durable over time and less talent dependent than other teams. So I like the idea of deploying a system that changes what it does week to week in this manner.
Speaking of Bettcher, did any coordinator ever come to the Giants with higher expectations and fail as miserably as he did?
Looking through a list of coordinators on Pro Football Reference (linked below), probably not on the coordinator level.
I wasn't a Giants fan in the 1970s, but I am guessing the most disappointing coaching hire period in regards to expectations vs. results may have been Bill Arnsparger in 1974. I know I would have been thrilled with the No-Name Dolphins' DC coming to coach my team. But I'm not sure if the Giants faithful who suffered through the 70s feel the same way.
But as far as coordinators go, yes, Bettcher is likely it. Perhaps I'm falling victim to recency bias, but that's my pick too. I had such high hopes. Link - ( New Window )
It is fat man. Don't expect Shakespearean level prose....
I think he meant he is excited to see the DC hire in the bag, and now he is on to the OC hire, who I assume he is pulling for Jason Garrett, given Garrett's Ivey league background.
Speaking of Bettcher, did any coordinator ever come to the Giants with higher expectations and fail as miserably as he did?
I mean they gave him nothing. They gave him the job, then traded everything and had him start a bunch of rookies. If anything, Bettcher got a bad deal. He never had a pass rush or a backfield. Barely had a linebacker.
Listening to various sound clips while he was in Miami and GB, this will
Come off as perhaps harsh but despite Yale, this guy is not articulate: he sounds all over the place
“Last year, we were attacking,” defensive tackle Davon Godchaux told the media this week about the challenges a lineman faces when making a change like this. “Now you have to read the blocks. That’s probably the biggest challenge for me. (I am) used to getting off the ball, trying to attack the offensive line. Now you have to read and watch where they’re going and playing more with your hands out in front of you.
Speaking of Bettcher, did any coordinator ever come to the Giants with higher expectations and fail as miserably as he did?
I mean they gave him nothing. They gave him the job, then traded everything and had him start a bunch of rookies. If anything, Bettcher got a bad deal. He never had a pass rush or a backfield. Barely had a linebacker.
They went defense heavy in the last draft. And they brought in how many ex Cardinals? Five?
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Yes. A lot more.
Where is all this talent? Just a bunch of guys who havent proven anything and Leonard Williams.
Graham matches his philosophy, that’s why he was hired. I’ll keep saying, people here have to stop looking at things in a traditional way. The correct answer about whether the base is 3-4 or 4-3 is “yes”. That was both Judges answer AND Graham when asked in Miami last year. Whatever it takes.
I was upset when Graham left for the WRONG reason... Â
I was so sure Bettcher would be successful that he would get a HC gig in a yr or 2 and I was worried we would have no one one the roster to backfill as his replacement...LOL
RE: Not adding anything to the discussion but he shares a birthday Â
Graham matches his philosophy, that’s why he was hired. I’ll keep saying, people here have to stop looking at things in a traditional way. The correct answer about whether the base is 3-4 or 4-3 is “yes”. That was both Judges answer AND Graham when asked in Miami last year. Whatever it takes.
And yet I guarantee you we will see dozens of threads in the next two months about whether we are a 3-4 or 4-3 defense.
The answer to that question is watch the Patriots. They change fronts all of the time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why would Graham make a lateral move? Â
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Yes. A lot more.
Where is all this talent? Just a bunch of guys who havent proven anything and Leonard Williams.
And that just shows you how bad Miami is. As I posted their starters numerous times.
The Dolphins were implementing something pretty unusual and, no surprise, it was catastrophic at the beginning but the players got better at it and the team started to win some games later on.
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
Spagnuolo have when we hired him in 2007? How did that work out?
I also suspect we may have more talent on D than we realize. Most of the problems seem to me the result of bad coaching--i.e. players not knowing whom to cover or which gap to be in more than getting beat. Give or take Bethea who I assume will retire, voluntarily or otherwise.
Our D roster was the 00' Ravens compared to Miami's Â
and that's not an exaggeration. Among each team's starters who played more than half last year:
Have Made a Pro Bowl
MIA 0
NYG 3 (Jenkins, Williams, Ogletree)
First Round Picks
MIA 1 (Christian Wilkins)
NYG 5 (Peppers, Baker, Lawrence, Williams, Ogletree)
Day 2 picks
MIA 3 (Baker, McMillan, Rowe)
NYG 4 (Jenkins, Golden, Tomlinson, Carter)
Waived/Practice Squad in the last 12 months (starters)
MIA 5 (Avery Moss, Vince Biegel, Nik Needham, 1 CB + 1 S who both rotated a bunch)
NYG 1 (Mayo)
Bettcher's group's performance was a joke. Sure Ogletree is done and he distorts some of the categories above, but for the most part the team had an injury free year and a few guys even played well individually (Tomlinson, Lawrence, Golden). And yet the results were no better than a team full of practice squaders and cast offs, including 2 guys who couldn't even make the 53 here (Avery Moss & John Jenkins).
The Dolphins were implementing something pretty unusual and, no surprise, it was catastrophic at the beginning but the players got better at it and the team started to win some games later on.
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
I expect the same. I'm hopeful that there are a few factors that could speed things up, but I'm not confident. The main one being that Bettcher moved our guys around multiple positions and Graham could have some familiarity with the personnel here (he coached Tomlinson when he was here previously, but that may be the only guy unless im forgetting someone?). Peppers and Williams have each played in a few different defenses under different coaches too, so hopefully they are better equipped to adjust quicker.
The dolphins defense finished 30th because of the first half of the Â
Year. They played better as the year went on and with no talent. Honestly they got the best out of their players just like the Patriots do. We will see what he can do here but surprised the dolphins just let him walk.
"The Giants didn't have a single Pro Bowl player and only two teams ha Â
and that's not an exaggeration. Among each team's starters who played more than half last year:
Have Made a Pro Bowl
MIA 0
NYG 3 (Jenkins, Williams, Ogletree)
First Round Picks
MIA 1 (Christian Wilkins)
NYG 5 (Peppers, Baker, Lawrence, Williams, Ogletree)
Day 2 picks
MIA 3 (Baker, McMillan, Rowe)
NYG 4 (Jenkins, Golden, Tomlinson, Carter)
Waived/Practice Squad in the last 12 months (starters)
MIA 5 (Avery Moss, Vince Biegel, Nik Needham, 1 CB + 1 S who both rotated a bunch)
NYG 1 (Mayo)
Bettcher's group's performance was a joke. Sure Ogletree is done and he distorts some of the categories above, but for the most part the team had an injury free year and a few guys even played well individually (Tomlinson, Lawrence, Golden). And yet the results were no better than a team full of practice squaders and cast offs, including 2 guys who couldn't even make the 53 here (Avery Moss & John Jenkins).
The Phins defense was so bad that they had three Giants cast off (Moss, Jenkins, Munson) start games for them. I believe Jenkins was their starting DT/DE the entire season.
Davon Godchaux DT - 5th
Christian Wilkins DT - 1st
John Jenkins DT - 3rd
Jerome Baker LB - 3rd
Andrew Van Ginkel LB - 5th
Trent Harris LB - UDFA
Calvin Munson LB - UDFA
Nik Needham CB - UDFA
Eric Rowe CB - 2nd
Adrian Colbert S - 7th
Nate Brooks S - UDFA
7 guys who went after the 5th round or went Undrafted. A rookie DT. Another DT that's been on 5 teams in 7 years. A CB whose been on 3 teams in 5 years.
So anybody expecting results is just fooling themselves. Not a single DC in the NFL could have a consistently good defense with players like that.
Hmmm...somehow I don't think we'll be signing any of his former players to play for us.
By years end Nik Needham was a CB to watch as someone who could be a shutdown guy moving forward. A UDFA with that type of impact and skill development should not be ignored. Graham should be credited for that.
But if Judge and the defense do horribly, this will only feed the narrative. "Could've had Wade Phillips", "Could've had Kris Richard", "Could've had Rod Marinelli", "what the fuck are you doing letting a guy who has never been a head coach become our HC and he even got to choose his staff of inexperienced guys?"
RE: That article Eric on LI linked to is must reading Â
The Dolphins were implementing something pretty unusual and, no surprise, it was catastrophic at the beginning but the players got better at it and the team started to win some games later on.
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
Well, we had a dismal defense all of 2019 so any improvement next year at any point would be welcome.
Going to Yale does not of itself say much about quality. Alumni’s kids Â
get special ins, as does diversity, special private schools, etc etc. If I can think of all the hell raised about the Presidents Bush and Yale, that may say enough to eliminate Yale to many or at least how it was thrown about in the disaster of American politics.
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
But if Judge and the defense do horribly, this will only feed the narrative. "Could've had Wade Phillips", "Could've had Kris Richard", "Could've had Rod Marinelli", "what the fuck are you doing letting a guy who has never been a head coach become our HC and he even got to choose his staff of inexperienced guys?"
And of course, "you should've taken the hint when the Dolphins had no problem letting him leave"
RE: Going to Yale does not of itself say much about quality. Alumni’s kids Â
get special ins, as does diversity, special private schools, etc etc. If I can think of all the hell raised about the Presidents Bush and Yale, that may say enough to eliminate Yale to many or at least how it was thrown about in the disaster of American politics.
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
Agreed. Steve Mills and Jason Garrett went to Princeton. See how they did? And not many here want Garrett...
I dont buy "they're friends" talk, and Flores just letting him go.
If I hire a friend, I dont expect this friend to leave me, to go join another friend of ours... at least coach out the contract.
We went from looking for experience, to a guy with 1 year experience as coordinator, coaching a near bottom defense (maybe the talent wasnt there, but he sure didnt help make better, did he?), and who was let go by his HC, who also happens to be a friend.
I dont know much about the guy, & I hope it works out... but thats too many red flags for my taste.
I think our defensive line will fit well into this concept of Defense Â
Lawrence, Tomlinson, Williams (maybe), Hill, McIntosh are all fairly versatile.
I also think Connelly will be interesting to watch in this defense. Smart / instinctive player. Could overachieve and be a real leader in a scheme like Graham/Flores/Judge/Patriots run.
RE: Going to Yale does not of itself say much about quality. Alumni’s kids Â
get special ins, as does diversity, special private schools, etc etc. If I can think of all the hell raised about the Presidents Bush and Yale, that may say enough to eliminate Yale to many or at least how it was thrown about in the disaster of American politics.
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
great players or he doesn’t do much? I saw him with us and in various roles in St. louis, he is not in the class of Landry, Parcells, Belicheck, or even Arnsbarger as a Giant DC.
"That's great," one player who has worked extensively with Graham said after hearing about the hiring. "He's a good coach." https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28471607/source-patrick-graham-leaving-dolphins-giants-dc - ( New Window )
LOL. He fits the mold of want Judge wants and that’s all that matters. This is his team now and I’m fully on board with his vision. He wants leaders and teachers that will hold players accountable. Graham sounds like a bright guy that can get the most out of his players in a versatile scheme.
LOL. He fits the mold of want Judge wants and that’s all that matters. This is his team now and I’m fully on board with his vision. He wants leaders and teachers that will hold players accountable. Graham sounds like a bright guy that can get the most out of his players in a versatile scheme.
Honestly you could argue he overachieved based on those numbers. Least talented defense but not last in any major category
RE: I think “Spags” is an overrated DC especially on this site. He needs Â
great players or he doesn’t do much? I saw him with us and in various roles in St. louis, he is not in the class of Landry, Parcells, Belicheck, or even Arnsbarger as a Giant DC.
That’s the case for many coordinators. Their performance is dependent on talent. Saleh is the hot name now, but he was awful until the miners stacked the defense
"That's great," one player who has worked extensively with Graham said after hearing about the hiring. "He's a good coach." https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28471607/source-patrick-graham-leaving-dolphins-giants-dc - ( New Window )
I might be 100% wrong, but my memory, or maybe just my perception or wrong memory...is that teams typically approve interview requests. Unless you’re talking about the Patriots.
What goes around comes around too. If you’re a good guy and you take care of your coaches when you’re in charge, there might be more opportunities for you when luck inevitably turns bad for you. 90+ % of coaches get fired at some point. Only a handful get to retire on their own terms.
So I’m not reading too much into Miami letting him interview and leave.
RE: Pretty typical to approve interviews and hires Â
I might be 100% wrong, but my memory, or maybe just my perception or wrong memory...is that teams typically approve interview requests. Unless you’re talking about the Patriots.
What goes around comes around too. If you’re a good guy and you take care of your coaches when you’re in charge, there might be more opportunities for you when luck inevitably turns bad for you. 90+ % of coaches get fired at some point. Only a handful get to retire on their own terms.
So I’m not reading too much into Miami letting him interview and leave.
Not lateral moves. Positional coaches will be allowed to interview for a coordinator position by teams but sometimes denied. I am almost 100% sure that Reid blocked Spags from interviewing with us once but then the next year let him go. I cannot remember a team ever allowing an interview for a lateral move.
Davon Godchaux DT
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
I would love to have Van Ginkel. I think he got hurt
Davon Godchaux DT
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
I would love to have Van Ginkel. I think he got hurt
I believe the count among those starters is:
4 recent draft picks
1 vet FA
6 guys who were cut in-season/street FA
Hires that meld with the plan he wants to implement. Giants must have not had negative feelings about his stint here.
Anyway, my only take is that was a great job by the Miami staff to keep players going hard when the front office was tanking. Hopefully some of that was due to Graham.
This guy doesn't impress me (certainly not as a communicator). Judge said that as a first team head coach, he was looking for experience to lean on; this guy's about the same age.
His resume' is certainly not impressive. With the state of the team, right now, I don't get a good feeling. I certainly hope that I'm very WRONG.
This guy doesn't impress me (certainly not as a communicator). Judge said that as a first team head coach, he was looking for experience to lean on; this guy's about the same age.
His resume' is certainly not impressive. With the state of the team, right now, I don't get a good feeling. I certainly hope that I'm very WRONG.
Please show me where Judge said that. I looked, but I may have missed it.
great players or he doesn’t do much? I saw him with us and in various roles in St. louis, he is not in the class of Landry, Parcells, Belicheck, or even Arnsbarger as a Giant DC.
Fwiw, Arnsparger was HC not a DC. He was a terrific DC for Miami and a terrible HC for us.
This guy doesn't impress me (certainly not as a communicator). Judge said that as a first team head coach, he was looking for experience to lean on; this guy's about the same age.
His resume' is certainly not impressive. With the state of the team, right now, I don't get a good feeling. I certainly hope that I'm very WRONG.
You'd have to explain to me how extensive experience under Belichick coaching both the Pats defensive line and Pat linebackers is "not impressive."
The link Eric in LI cited. I will also attach it below for your benefit. It is awesome and explains a lot as to why Coach Judge wanted him. Flores/ Graham philosophy - ( New Window )
RE: I think “Spags” is an overrated DC especially on this site. He needs Â
great players or he doesn’t do much? I saw him with us and in various roles in St. louis, he is not in the class of Landry, Parcells, Belicheck, or even Arnsbarger as a Giant DC.
Gives Graham's general philosophy. I'm not enthused, disappointed or surprised by this hire. Joe is going to want some people he knows and trusts that value the philosophies he wants to build around. Like multiplicity. He wants hand son teachers. Graham has all those traits.
As far as his one year in Miami, if you actually watch the games, and it's obvious many of you running your mouths don't, his defense showed improvement. Watch week 17 v the Pats and it's obvious. New England needed that win...at home.
So let's see how it goes. You whiny lil' bitches better get your seatbacks and tray tables in order. Mara is done with quick switches. We hired a young first time HC and he's all in for four years come Hell or high water. I almost wish we'd lose for two years just so I can watch you all lose your shit as your collective pea sized brains explode. Almost.
who wants to run the same kind of flexible, change-for-every-opponent, Pats-style D that Judge is talking about creating. Both he and Graham have seen it work in NE, so they'll start out on the same page from day 1.
Will it be successful immediately, or even soon? Until the Giants upgrade the talent on the D, NO scheme is going to be successful. It may well look as ugly as everything else has for the last two years. But at least they'll start acquiring guys that will fit that system. And weeding-out guys who don't. Once they have the right guys, it could look very much like the Pats system.
But it's probably gonna require a lot more patience than most fans have (left).
Let's just hope the arrow starts pointing UP.
Graham's even more of a no-name than Judge, but I get the reasoning behind the hire.
RE: RE: I think “Spags” is an overrated DC especially on this site. He needs Â
great players or he doesn’t do much? I saw him with us and in various roles in St. louis, he is not in the class of Landry, Parcells, Belicheck, or even Arnsbarger as a Giant DC.
He’s an average DC
Well you named some pretty big HOF names right there, I’d say 99% of coordinators in history aren’t on the level of Landry and Belichick. But when he has the horses Spags has gotten the job done in big moments. If you have talent on defense Spags knows how to utilize it.
Holding the 2007 Pays offense to 14 points in and of itself was a HOF performance, not saying he should be in the HOF I’m saying that was one of the great defensive performances in the history of the sport.
And the innovativeness of putting Justin Tuck (an edge rusher) on the inside to go against a guard was something that was no often done before that game, and since then that has become the NFL blueprint for beating the Pats and almost every great pass rushing team does it.
Also remember the fake drop back by Mitchell and then he came rushing up the middle... there were so many smart plays run by that defense in XLII, Spags and the rest of the coaching staff had them thinking on another level.
Again Spags is not a HOF coach and he certainly failed as a HC, but when he’s had the horses he’s gotten the job done and you can’t always say that about every DC when given talent.
Simply due to that performance in XLII you simply won’t hear me ever say a bad word about Spags. Period.
Gives Graham's general philosophy. I'm not enthused, disappointed or surprised by this hire. Joe is going to want
So let's see how it goes. You whiny lil' bitches better get your seatbacks and tray tables in order. Mara is done with quick switches. We hired a young first time HC and he's all in for four years come Hell or high water. I almost wish we'd lose for two years just so I can watch you all lose your shit as your collective pea sized brains explode. Almost.
Holy shit, give that man a hand! (stands and starts slow clap)
The link Eric in LI cited. I will also attach it below for your benefit. It is awesome and explains a lot as to why Coach Judge wanted him. Flores/ Graham philosophy - ( New Window )
Only caveat I'll have about this is that we saw similar articles about Bettcher. That said I already trust Judge more than Shurmur and I sure as hell respect the Pats more than the Cards, even when the Cards were good.
In answer to the question "So, just how you sort of sold them with that asterisk on the resume that you were ready to be a head coach", he answered this way ...
"And as a young head coach, I’m going to lean on Dave Gettleman, I’m going to lean on the assistants I hire, I’m going to lean on having the right people in the building to fill in some of the blanks that I may have"
To me this means that he anticipates that as a coach with comparative limited experience, he will have knowledge gaps. I think that is very wise of him.
Robert E.Lee once said "The education of a man is never completed until he dies"
I'm very, very impressed with Joe Judge. It's very rare to find many men who know themselves this well.
Gives Graham's general philosophy. I'm not enthused, disappointed or surprised by this hire. Joe is going to want
So let's see how it goes. You whiny lil' bitches better get your seatbacks and tray tables in order. Mara is done with quick switches. We hired a young first time HC and he's all in for four years come Hell or high water. I almost wish we'd lose for two years just so I can watch you all lose your shit as your collective pea sized brains explode. Almost.
Holy shit, give that man a hand! (stands and starts slow clap)
Yup couldn’t agree more. Some of the incessant whining that goes on here is worse than an entitled 12 year old girl.
until the talent level rises, most coaches are going to struggle.
With Shurmur/Bettcher, it was painfully obvious that they really stunk on gameday in their own right, and the teaching was not getting through to the players. When mental and physical errors are repeated over and over, that's poor coaching. The brass saw it, and it sparked the changes.
They're still on the hook for improving the talent level. And, with a third offseason of infusion hopefully Judge and the new staff will demonstrate their abilities to set a foundation and TEACH the players.
Graham matches his philosophy, that’s why he was hired. I’ll keep saying, people here have to stop looking at things in a traditional way. The correct answer about whether the base is 3-4 or 4-3 is “yes”. That was both Judges answer AND Graham when asked in Miami last year. Whatever it takes.
And yet I guarantee you we will see dozens of threads in the next two months about whether we are a 3-4 or 4-3 defense.
The answer to that question is watch the Patriots. They change fronts all of the time.
And it’s been said over and over by Belichick “you need smart players to change philosophies every week but you can’t doubt the success of this strategy .......I like it because it teaches the team to overcome adversity and easily make halftime adjustments something Shurmur could not do
points out that only Dalvin Tomlinson remains from the 2016 defense. So the quote must have come from him.
Also, he suggests that Glenn may not be out of the running for a position.
The title of Pass Game Coordinator is becoming popular in the NFL now. Also Glenn is the coach Lattimore arguing with during the playoff game. So he might be looking for a change as well. Secondary Coach with the additional title?
I've been thinking about this a decent amount. Some positives and negatives:
Positives
Clearly, this is who Joe Judge wanted. It doesn't seem like there was even much of a search on this one.
His views are aligned with Judge around versatility
Interviews talk highly of his ability to develop players.
Concerns
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
Will his scheme be too complicated for a young Giants' defense? The rumors out of Miami are that O'Shea was fired and they were okay with Graham walking because the offensive and defensive schemes were similar to the Pats and difficult for younger players to pick up.
Gut feel, but I have some concern that he has shades of McAdoo in the sense that he's the smartest guy in the room, but he overthinks things.
RE: I think “Spags” is an overrated DC especially on this site. He needs Â
great players or he doesn’t do much? I saw him with us and in various roles in St. louis, he is not in the class of Landry, Parcells, Belicheck, or even Arnsbarger as a Giant DC.
It's not a crime to not be Parcells or Landry. Those are hall of fame coaches. You can be good at your job and not be a hall of fame coach. Name all the current defensive coordinators to do great things without great players.
but how do you even know what the playcalls were??
Quote:
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
I think the Patriots system is a good idea in practice but that requires a very specific type of player to actually run. Belichick knows how to get players to fit what he wants to do.
Finding the right talent to play in this idea of a defense is going to be a challenge.
but how do you even know what the playcalls were??
Quote:
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
For example, against the Steelers, they ran an all out blitz at the end of the half when it was 3rd and 20 from the Dolphins 45. This resulted in a TD for the Steelers.
I think the Patriots system is a good idea in practice but that requires a very specific type of player to actually run. Belichick knows how to get players to fit what he wants to do.
Finding the right talent to play in this idea of a defense is going to be a challenge.
Absolutely.
There was a thread started a few days ago in which the OP we'd win something like three more games this year than we did last year. My take was "not so fast." I expect a fair amount of turmoil early on, and quite possibly a good deal of roster-turnover this year and next as Judge and his staff attempt to put together a roster "in their image." That's not going to happen overnight (if it happens at all, let's be honest).
but how do you even know what the playcalls were??
Quote:
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
I guess he got a transcript of every play being run and analyzed it, much like Brian Baldinger does.
On a side note, when we played Miami, the announcers made a point in telling us Miami’s weakness is their defensive line, and apparently they were right because we did abuse them. So, maybe in all fairness to Graham, he just didn’t have much to work with and tried to make the best with what he had. His defense surprisingly held the Patriots to 24 points in the last game to beat them. Don’t ask me how they only scored 24 when we scored in the 30s.
so this hire makes sense. He was well thought of by Carl Banks who knew of him when he coached here 2 years ago. I think he has done well in the places he's been. Seems as though Graham drank the NE Kool-Aid as well. Its like they were reciting from a manual.
Its so funny how so many people have formed opinions on this coach when they know nothing about him. I hope he can get the most out of the talent we have on this team and I expect a lot of upgrades on D to help him via mid level FAs that fit like they do in NE. Rarely do they dip into top end FA unless its a game changer, usually a CB.
I think the comment about Kitchens a few days ago is telling that he doesnt hire friends. Judge doesnt respect Kitchens as a coach.
RE: You want coaches with the same philosophy as you Â
extreme in the sense that A) teaching is more of what college coaches should do; and B) playcalling and creativity are just as important.
I mean I know they're not mutually exclusive, but from the way it's being presented it sounds like Graham is being put in the category of teacher rather than some sort of defensive mind. Ideally you want and really need both.
arent teaching guys for the NFL. Its EXTREMELY important to teach players the fundamentals and correct technique. Something this team is unbelievably poor at. This is not a one year fix.. no one is coming in here no matter who they are and fixing this mess in one year.
The Giants need to build a PROGRAM.. the teams that are the most successful in ANY sport have a program.. the Giants have no foundation.. no identity.. they need one.. badly..
extreme in the sense that A) teaching is more of what college coaches should do; and B) playcalling and creativity are just as important.
I mean I know they're not mutually exclusive, but from the way it's being presented it sounds like Graham is being put in the category of teacher rather than some sort of defensive mind. Ideally you want and really need both.
Judge stressed fundamentals in his presser, so I think the guys he is bringing in will play a big role in that as well.
RE: RE: Fairly impressive we could find anybody who Â
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Blah. The Panthers just hired the Colts DL coach on a lateral move. Sometimes guys don’t stand in the way of people they have a good relationship with
It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Blah. The Panthers just hired the Colts DL coach on a lateral move. Sometimes guys don’t stand in the way of people they have a good relationship with
.
Was his contract up as the DL coach with Colts?
That would be different if that were the case.
In Graham's case, A)it wasn't, and
B)worked with both Flores and Judge as members of the Pats staff, not exactly a compelling argument.
Key to depth for a team like the Giants is getting bottom round and UFDA's ready to play and step in. Think Patriots. Think rookie Malcolm Butler prepared in the right place and prepared to see the play when it matters
Cant execute anything exotic or scheme flexible until the foundation is in place.
They aren't going guru. They don't believe scheme wrinkles win enough games. They are preparing multiflex from multi players
It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
.
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
.
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
miami's offense couldn't sustain drives. they were like us in that everything collapsed in the second half more often than not
It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
.
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
awesome fan
I mean they had 4 wins and a defense ranked in the 30s. If being a bad fan means noting things that actually happened, being a fan is dumb.
Key to depth for a team like the Giants is getting bottom round and UFDA's ready to play and step in. Think Patriots. Think rookie Malcolm Butler prepared in the right place and prepared to see the play when it matters
Cant execute anything exotic or scheme flexible until the foundation is in place.
They aren't going guru. They don't believe scheme wrinkles win enough games. They are preparing multiflex from multi players
arent teaching guys for the NFL. Its EXTREMELY important to teach players the fundamentals and correct technique. Something this team is unbelievably poor at. This is not a one year fix.. no one is coming in here no matter who they are and fixing this mess in one year.
The Giants need to build a PROGRAM.. the teams that are the most successful in ANY sport have a program.. the Giants have no foundation.. no identity.. they need one.. badly..
That's nice and all, but what about the playcalling itself? Schemes are just as important to the success of a team.
Graham has got the teaching part down, supposedly, but what about the playcalling? Graham can teach our defense about the fundamentals of tackling, but if he calls a wrong play on defense and lets up a big play, what good will that lesson on tackling do?
Again, they're not mutually exclusive, but all this talk about the importance of a teacher and not enough about schemers, strategists and defensive minds/gurus rubs me the wrong way a bit.
but how do you even know what the playcalls were??
Quote:
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
For example, against the Steelers, they ran an all out blitz at the end of the half when it was 3rd and 20 from the Dolphins 45. This resulted in a TD for the Steelers.
How much time left in the half? I like a blitz on 3rd and 20. Pin your ears back time as they say on TV. Not to pile on but this is one example and I'm not sure its a good example.
You're not teaching pro players the three point stance. You're teaching them complicated schemes that must be executed by all 11 guys in a precise way. You're teaching them to unlearn things they have been taught before in order to play their position in the scheme and make it successful. Unfortunately, we've had players who failed to pick up systems before and were reading after week 3 we were going to have to simplify the system to make it work. Hopefully having a bunch of young guys gives us a higher probability of successs. Hopefully we bring in some guys in free agency who have thrived in multiple defensive systems.
Davon Godchaux DT
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
“We would all just love to run the same thing every week. That would [require] far less thinking. But on the flip side of that, if you run the same thing every week, coaches are smart; they will devise ways to combat it. If you keep running the same thing, there’s a counter to that: Here’s your weakness and we’re going to expose it. But if we change it up, it keeps other teams on their toes. We throw them off their game plan. But it does require more studying and thinking.”
Seems like we've been running the same D for 2 years. Thank the good lord we'll be changing that
“We would all just love to run the same thing every week. That would [require] far less thinking. But on the flip side of that, if you run the same thing every week, coaches are smart; they will devise ways to combat it. If you keep running the same thing, there’s a counter to that: Here’s your weakness and we’re going to expose it. But if we change it up, it keeps other teams on their toes. We throw them off their game plan. But it does require more studying and thinking.”
Seems like we've been running the same D for 2 years. Thank the good lord we'll be changing that
What concerns me is that Bettcher was supposed to be this guy that valued flexibility and I never saw any of this. That said, I trust Judge to make sure Graham follows through more than I did Shurmur.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
Don't know but 25th in 2017.
Point is, huge jumps are possible.
Point taken. Hopefully the Giants will play their cards right in free agency and the draft with regard to their defense. It sure would be nice to have at least one player that opposing offenses have to account for. I hope Graham is the goods, too, and can bring out the best in the guys we already have who underachieved this year.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
Don't know but 25th in 2017.
Point is, huge jumps are possible.
Point taken. Hopefully the Giants will play their cards right in free agency and the draft with regard to their defense. It sure would be nice to have at least one player that opposing offenses have to account for. I hope Graham is the goods, too, and can bring out the best in the guys we already have who underachieved this year.
DG screwed over the last DC, Graham won't fare any better without talent.
How did DG screw over Bettcher? By signing five of his old Cardinal players? By drafting Carter, Hill, and McIntosh in his first year, and Lawrence, Baker, Ximines, Connelly, Love, and Ballentine in his second?
To borrow from Vince McMahon, "Betch screwed Betch."
RE: RE: Won't matter if he doesn't get good players Â
DG screwed over the last DC, Graham won't fare any better without talent.
How did DG screw over Bettcher? By signing five of his old Cardinal players? By drafting Carter, Hill, and McIntosh in his first year, and Lawrence, Baker, Ximines, Connelly, Love, and Ballentine in his second?
To borrow from Vince McMahon, "Betch screwed Betch."
Not one of those players was an established NFL talent outside of 35 year old Bethea. The overwhelming majority of those cardinals had their best seasons 4 years ago in 2016. Even Golden, the one signing DG has made outside of Dixon and a bunch of other ST players that has worked out, he was thought to be a one year wonder until he proved he could still play in 2019 after fully recovering from his injuries.
No DC would have had any success with the utter crap DG gave Bettcher to work with.
You don't win 9 games over 2 years because of bad coaching. You guys constantly pin blame on Shurmur and Bettcher. Were they great coaches? Nope. But they were also set up to fail from day 1 with this roster. Nobody could have done better with this group.
Nobody did less with more than Bettcher. But thanks to him we got to see Kareem Martin, Olsen Pierre, and Antoine "Whiplash" Bethea in action. I'm looking forward to watching that highlight reel.
As for Shurmur he was just another example of the Peter Principle. He was a good coordinator who rose to the level of incompetence as a head coach. The NFL is littered with them.
Link - ( New Window )
@TomPelissero
The #Giants are hiring Patrick Graham as their defensive coordinator, source said.
Read the front page.
Graduate assistant
Richmond (2004)
Defensive line coach
Richmond (2005–2006)
Tight ends coach
Notre Dame (2007–2008)
Graduate assistant
Toledo (2009)
Defensive line
New England Patriots (2009)
Coaching assistant
New England Patriots (2010)
Defensive assistant
New England Patriots (2011)
Linebackers coach
New England Patriots (2012–2013)
Defensive line coach
New England Patriots (2014–2015)
Linebackers coach
New York Giants (2016–2017)
Defensive line coach
Green Bay Packers (2018)
Linebackers coach & run game coordinator
Miami Dolphins (2019)
Defensive coordinator
New York Giants (2020-Present)
Defensive coordinator
@TomPelissero
·
2m
The #Dolphins are expected to promote Josh Boyer to defensive coordinator, sources say. He replaces Patrick Graham, who’s leaving to become the #Giants’ DC.
Patrick Graham - ( New Window )
Not based on what Judge said after his press conference
That’s the million dollar question.
They didn’t,
Quote:
let him go?
They didn’t,
They did. The Giants needed the permission of the Dolphins to even talk to him.
I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not...
Miami Herald: Graham feels the heat for lack of heat. - ( New Window )
Quote:
let him go?
They didn’t,
He was their DC. Gave the Giants permission to interview. They let him leave.
Quote:
In comment 14775424 section125 said:
Quote:
let him go?
They didn’t,
They did. The Giants needed the permission of the Dolphins to even talk to him.
Oh, I thought the claim was that Miami had fired him.
And the fact that Banks likes him doesn’t cancel out that Flores, an up and coming coach, did not apparently value him enough to block this.
Quote:
bring on the white Yale guy!!
I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not...
Trust me, it is.
The Phins pass rush is so bad it makes the giants look like 49ers. Avery Moss was the opening day starting at one OLB spot across from bust Charles Harris.
This is exactly what I thought
I think that makes the most sense. Graham wanted to return to NY and work with Judge. They’re all friends. Sometimes, even in sports, that matters. :)
I’m hoping for Jay Gruden for OC and Bill Callahan OL coach.
Link - ( New Window )
Graham spent years in New England before his one season in Miami.
The Dolphins had the least talented defense in the NFL by far without injuries. Then they traded Minkah and lost Xavien Howard for the year.
Maybe there is still a way he gets involved
This is why he makes sense as a hire. judge needs someone who understands what he is trying instill here.
A stretch kind of like the HC hire. But the important thing is what players they bring in for them to coach.They’re short of talent.
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
Maybe there is still a way he gets involved
Well we knew that wouldn’t happen.
@art_stapleton
·
1m
Two years ago, a significant part of the Giants fan base was doing cartwheels over landing James Bettcher as defensive coordinator.
Just remember that as you're scrambling to form an opinion on Patrick Graham.
I hope he works out but miamis defense was a joke, IDC if they tried to tank...good coaches do more with less. Their defense was a disaster.
Hope it works out but this guy isn't an exciting hire imo
@JordanRaanan
·
20s
Interesting hire. One year as a defensive coordinator. Miami, with minimal talent, finished 30th in total defense this season. Giants players thought highly of Graham during his previous stint with team as DL coach.
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
And they won the damn game. Wow......
I hope he works out but miamis defense was a joke, IDC if they tried to tank...good coaches do more with less. Their defense was a disaster.
Hope it works out but this guy isn't an exciting hire imo
There isn't a DC in the NFL that had less.
Quote:
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
This is a coach who was employed in the league. One of 32 such jobs. He probably has strengths and weaknesses like everyone else.
Lets see what he brings to the table.
The likely reasons he was brought in align with what Judge laid out at his press conference.
Quote:
IDC if he is an "up and comer" this shit reeks.
I hope he works out but miamis defense was a joke, IDC if they tried to tank...good coaches do more with less. Their defense was a disaster.
Hope it works out but this guy isn't an exciting hire imo
There isn't a DC in the NFL that had less.
Yea I agree. I agree. Hoping it works
Quote:
In comment 14775502 Jint Fan in Buc Land said:
Quote:
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Yes. A lot more.
The reporter said (something like) "The big question now is do you run a 3-4 or a 4-3?"
Patrick answer was "Yes".
And then he explained that there will be no fixed scheme; it will change each week depending on the opponent. "If one games we have to play 11 guys with their hand in the dirt, that's what we will do if that's what it takes."
Sound familiar? (He also stressed teaching.)
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
Not a lot to work with there. Then again, not a lot to work with here either.
Calvin Munson was atrociously bad, yikes
Quote:
Because he feels Boyer is ready for a promotion.
I think that makes the most sense. Graham wanted to return to NY and work with Judge. They’re all friends. Sometimes, even in sports, that matters. :)
Yeah that's my take too. Plus if the guy did want to return to NY why would Flores or any coach want a guy who would rather be somewhere else?
Can't say I'm psyched. Frankly, I'm a little surprised by Judge's choice. But I was all-in on Bettcher, so what do I know?
Again why did they let him leave?
Quote:
From Flores when he was hired by Miami: “Pat is a Yale guy. He’s extremely bright. He is great with the fundamentals and has very strong leadership ability. I can’t say enough good things about him. We worked together in New England and I know the type of passion he has and the way he works. We have a lot of the same core values and beliefs from a defensive standpoint.”
Again why did they let him leave?
Should be asked at the presser?
Christian Wilkins DT - 1st
John Jenkins DT - 3rd
Jerome Baker LB - 3rd
Andrew Van Ginkel LB - 5th
Trent Harris LB - UDFA
Calvin Munson LB - UDFA
Nik Needham CB - UDFA
Eric Rowe CB - 2nd
Adrian Colbert S - 7th
Nate Brooks S - UDFA
7 guys who went after the 5th round or went Undrafted. A rookie DT. Another DT that's been on 5 teams in 7 years. A CB whose been on 3 teams in 5 years.
So anybody expecting results is just fooling themselves. Not a single DC in the NFL could have a consistently good defense with players like that.
From what I've read, JJ and Graham share the same values and philosophies about teaching and flexiblity of schemes. Both are very intelligent.
However JJ appears to be wound kinda tight and Graham is loose.
Maybe they can team up as good guy, bad guy :).
Link - ( New Window )
NO. He was a DISASTER. ALL TALK.
Not that I can recall. What were the expectations with Rod Rust?
We need legit Coordinators over here.
We need legit Coordinators over here.
He's hired 1 Patriots coach. Who hasn't coached for the Patriots in 4 seasons.
We need legit Coordinators over here.
how is he not a "legit coordinator"?
do you know what you're talking about?
We need legit Coordinators over here.
All nfl coaches hire guys they know. Its how it works.
Christian Wilkins DT - 1st
John Jenkins DT - 3rd
Jerome Baker LB - 3rd
Andrew Van Ginkel LB - 5th
Trent Harris LB - UDFA
Calvin Munson LB - UDFA
Nik Needham CB - UDFA
Eric Rowe CB - 2nd
Adrian Colbert S - 7th
Nate Brooks S - UDFA
7 guys who went after the 5th round or went Undrafted. A rookie DT. Another DT that's been on 5 teams in 7 years. A CB whose been on 3 teams in 5 years.
So anybody expecting results is just fooling themselves. Not a single DC in the NFL could have a consistently good defense with players like that.
Hmmm...somehow I don't think we'll be signing any of his former players to play for us.
“Generally, people like it,” Rowe said. “You don’t hear people complain. You don’t hear anybody complain about, ‘Oh my God, I’ve got a lot of assignments this week! How am I going to play?’ They just study and get it done. No one really complains about it because we know we’re trying to take away their strengths. And the game is a lot easier when you take away their strengths.
“Whoever we’re playing, we’re trying to take away the strongest thing they have going for them. When you can do that, it’s smooth and easy.”
I'm ok with this hire because I think that NE system, if deployed correctly, can become exceptionally durable over time and less talent dependent than other teams. So I like the idea of deploying a system that changes what it does week to week in this manner.
I have no idea whether or not Graham is going to be a good DC because he's unproven, but he does seem to be well thought of. And if this is the system you want to deploy, you are basically choosing exclusively from ex-NE coaches.
Dolphins asking defensive players to do things many teams don’t. Here’s their reaction. - ( New Window )
Looking through a list of coordinators on Pro Football Reference (linked below), probably not on the coordinator level.
I wasn't a Giants fan in the 1970s, but I am guessing the most disappointing coaching hire period in regards to expectations vs. results may have been Bill Arnsparger in 1974. I know I would have been thrilled with the No-Name Dolphins' DC coming to coach my team. But I'm not sure if the Giants faithful who suffered through the 70s feel the same way.
But as far as coordinators go, yes, Bettcher is likely it. Perhaps I'm falling victim to recency bias, but that's my pick too. I had such high hopes.
Link - ( New Window )
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bring on the white Yale guy!!
I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not...
It is fat man. Don't expect Shakespearean level prose....
I think he meant he is excited to see the DC hire in the bag, and now he is on to the OC hire, who I assume he is pulling for Jason Garrett, given Garrett's Ivey league background.
I mean they gave him nothing. They gave him the job, then traded everything and had him start a bunch of rookies. If anything, Bettcher got a bad deal. He never had a pass rush or a backfield. Barely had a linebacker.
Come off as perhaps harsh but despite Yale, this guy is not articulate: he sounds all over the place
Nothing about this team is inspiring, I don’t care how hard they try to put a positive spin on this, the Giants are the new Browns.
Would have been nice to see them bring in veteran coordinators at the very least. Nope...
Also found this
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Speaking of Bettcher, did any coordinator ever come to the Giants with higher expectations and fail as miserably as he did?
I mean they gave him nothing. They gave him the job, then traded everything and had him start a bunch of rookies. If anything, Bettcher got a bad deal. He never had a pass rush or a backfield. Barely had a linebacker.
They went defense heavy in the last draft. And they brought in how many ex Cardinals? Five?
I’m neither excited or ticked off because I don’t know anything about him
We had a HC who was OC of the year and a proven DC we were all giddy about and it was a disaster.
I’ll wait to make any judgement here
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In comment 14775512 Big Rick in FL said:
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In comment 14775502 Jint Fan in Buc Land said:
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I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Yes. A lot more.
Where is all this talent? Just a bunch of guys who havent proven anything and Leonard Williams.
super advanced analytics
And yet I guarantee you we will see dozens of threads in the next two months about whether we are a 3-4 or 4-3 defense.
The answer to that question is watch the Patriots. They change fronts all of the time.
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In comment 14775519 jeff57 said:
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In comment 14775512 Big Rick in FL said:
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In comment 14775502 Jint Fan in Buc Land said:
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I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Yes. A lot more.
Where is all this talent? Just a bunch of guys who havent proven anything and Leonard Williams.
And that just shows you how bad Miami is. As I posted their starters numerous times.
He was horrible
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
That’s going to be rocky.
He’s not white...
I also suspect we may have more talent on D than we realize. Most of the problems seem to me the result of bad coaching--i.e. players not knowing whom to cover or which gap to be in more than getting beat. Give or take Bethea who I assume will retire, voluntarily or otherwise.
Have Made a Pro Bowl
MIA 0
NYG 3 (Jenkins, Williams, Ogletree)
First Round Picks
MIA 1 (Christian Wilkins)
NYG 5 (Peppers, Baker, Lawrence, Williams, Ogletree)
Day 2 picks
MIA 3 (Baker, McMillan, Rowe)
NYG 4 (Jenkins, Golden, Tomlinson, Carter)
Waived/Practice Squad in the last 12 months (starters)
MIA 5 (Avery Moss, Vince Biegel, Nik Needham, 1 CB + 1 S who both rotated a bunch)
NYG 1 (Mayo)
Bettcher's group's performance was a joke. Sure Ogletree is done and he distorts some of the categories above, but for the most part the team had an injury free year and a few guys even played well individually (Tomlinson, Lawrence, Golden). And yet the results were no better than a team full of practice squaders and cast offs, including 2 guys who couldn't even make the 53 here (Avery Moss & John Jenkins).
Hufnagel?
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
I expect the same. I'm hopeful that there are a few factors that could speed things up, but I'm not confident. The main one being that Bettcher moved our guys around multiple positions and Graham could have some familiarity with the personnel here (he coached Tomlinson when he was here previously, but that may be the only guy unless im forgetting someone?). Peppers and Williams have each played in a few different defenses under different coaches too, so hopefully they are better equipped to adjust quicker.
Not much to read into.
Have Made a Pro Bowl
MIA 0
NYG 3 (Jenkins, Williams, Ogletree)
First Round Picks
MIA 1 (Christian Wilkins)
NYG 5 (Peppers, Baker, Lawrence, Williams, Ogletree)
Day 2 picks
MIA 3 (Baker, McMillan, Rowe)
NYG 4 (Jenkins, Golden, Tomlinson, Carter)
Waived/Practice Squad in the last 12 months (starters)
MIA 5 (Avery Moss, Vince Biegel, Nik Needham, 1 CB + 1 S who both rotated a bunch)
NYG 1 (Mayo)
Bettcher's group's performance was a joke. Sure Ogletree is done and he distorts some of the categories above, but for the most part the team had an injury free year and a few guys even played well individually (Tomlinson, Lawrence, Golden). And yet the results were no better than a team full of practice squaders and cast offs, including 2 guys who couldn't even make the 53 here (Avery Moss & John Jenkins).
The Phins defense was so bad that they had three Giants cast off (Moss, Jenkins, Munson) start games for them. I believe Jenkins was their starting DT/DE the entire season.
Not much to read into.
Only difference LaFleur wasn’t calling plays in LA. He called the plays in the Tennessee.
Graham was calling plays in Miami
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bring on the white Yale guy!!
I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not...
FMiC can't stop thinking of me and my BBC.
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Davon Godchaux DT - 5th
Christian Wilkins DT - 1st
John Jenkins DT - 3rd
Jerome Baker LB - 3rd
Andrew Van Ginkel LB - 5th
Trent Harris LB - UDFA
Calvin Munson LB - UDFA
Nik Needham CB - UDFA
Eric Rowe CB - 2nd
Adrian Colbert S - 7th
Nate Brooks S - UDFA
7 guys who went after the 5th round or went Undrafted. A rookie DT. Another DT that's been on 5 teams in 7 years. A CB whose been on 3 teams in 5 years.
So anybody expecting results is just fooling themselves. Not a single DC in the NFL could have a consistently good defense with players like that.
Hmmm...somehow I don't think we'll be signing any of his former players to play for us.
By years end Nik Needham was a CB to watch as someone who could be a shutdown guy moving forward. A UDFA with that type of impact and skill development should not be ignored. Graham should be credited for that.
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LaFleur was OC of the Rams for 1 season under McVay (and had come with him from Washington) and then went to Tennessee as OC the next year.
Not much to read into.
Only difference LaFleur wasn’t calling plays in LA. He called the plays in the Tennessee.
Graham was calling plays in Miami
Perhaps he missed the northeast
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
Well, we had a dismal defense all of 2019 so any improvement next year at any point would be welcome.
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
And of course, "you should've taken the hint when the Dolphins had no problem letting him leave"
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
Agreed. Steve Mills and Jason Garrett went to Princeton. See how they did? And not many here want Garrett...
If I hire a friend, I dont expect this friend to leave me, to go join another friend of ours... at least coach out the contract.
We went from looking for experience, to a guy with 1 year experience as coordinator, coaching a near bottom defense (maybe the talent wasnt there, but he sure didnt help make better, did he?), and who was let go by his HC, who also happens to be a friend.
I dont know much about the guy, & I hope it works out... but thats too many red flags for my taste.
I also think Connelly will be interesting to watch in this defense. Smart / instinctive player. Could overachieve and be a real leader in a scheme like Graham/Flores/Judge/Patriots run.
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
Steve Spagnuolo says hi.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28471607/source-patrick-graham-leaving-dolphins-giants-dc - ( New Window )
2. Did feel on draft night that Betch would be hung out to dry if we didn't trade down and go all defense. And commented on that.
3. That said - I felt that the 2-4-5 was hot doggy doo especially with our terrible lbs.. but in any case.
4. Still strongly suggesting to draft 2 true free safeties high in the draft.
As well as a lb if not two or three types of those.
Even IF it's Pat's style discipljbe we will still need such.
Sounds like we should've hired Boyer, lol.
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LaFleur was OC of the Rams for 1 season under McVay (and had come with him from Washington) and then went to Tennessee as OC the next year.
Not much to read into.
Only difference LaFleur wasn’t calling plays in LA. He called the plays in the Tennessee.
Graham was calling plays in Miami
Its Flores defense and now this is Grahams defense...
I wondering if they are waiting for his contract to be up with the Cowboys which I think is Jan 14th.
Honestly you could argue he overachieved based on those numbers. Least talented defense but not last in any major category
That’s the case for many coordinators. Their performance is dependent on talent. Saleh is the hot name now, but he was awful until the miners stacked the defense
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"That's great," one player who has worked extensively with Graham said after hearing about the hiring. "He's a good coach." https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28471607/source-patrick-graham-leaving-dolphins-giants-dc - ( New Window )
Sounds like we should've hired Boyer, lol.
funny thats what I thought too when I read that.
What goes around comes around too. If you’re a good guy and you take care of your coaches when you’re in charge, there might be more opportunities for you when luck inevitably turns bad for you. 90+ % of coaches get fired at some point. Only a handful get to retire on their own terms.
So I’m not reading too much into Miami letting him interview and leave.
What goes around comes around too. If you’re a good guy and you take care of your coaches when you’re in charge, there might be more opportunities for you when luck inevitably turns bad for you. 90+ % of coaches get fired at some point. Only a handful get to retire on their own terms.
So I’m not reading too much into Miami letting him interview and leave.
Not lateral moves. Positional coaches will be allowed to interview for a coordinator position by teams but sometimes denied. I am almost 100% sure that Reid blocked Spags from interviewing with us once but then the next year let him go. I cannot remember a team ever allowing an interview for a lateral move.
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Would have been Aaron Glenn I think between the two.
Maybe there is still a way he gets involved
Well we knew that wouldn’t happen.
Still talk Glenn could wind up elsewhere on the D staff
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
I would love to have Van Ginkel. I think he got hurt
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"That's great," one player who has worked extensively with Graham said after hearing about the hiring. "He's a good coach."
Has anyone on the team other than DT worked extensively with Graham?
Could be anyone that knows him from his New England days too. Tomlinson only played from Graham for 1 year.
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bring on the white Yale guy!!
He’s not white...
I know. The poster yesterday who went off about the Giants talking to white guys from Yale didn't though....
Geez!
In comment 14775406 FatMan in Charlotte said:
That’s going to be rocky.
He either does it or he doesn’t play. Pretty simple. Not worried about his feelings.
Geez!
In comment 14775406 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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bring on the white Yale guy!!
LOL!
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Davon Godchaux DT
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
I would love to have Van Ginkel. I think he got hurt
I believe the count among those starters is:
4 recent draft picks
1 vet FA
6 guys who were cut in-season/street FA
Pretty amazing that group cost NE the bye.
Maybe Bill Sheridan? lol
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bring on the white Yale guy!!
He’s not white...
Thanks for clarifying. I was confused about that tan.
In comment 14775851 Darth Paul said:
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The fact that he’s a white guy is relevant how? Knocks him down a peg?
Geez!
In comment 14775406 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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bring on the white Yale guy!!
LOL!
Anyway, my only take is that was a great job by the Miami staff to keep players going hard when the front office was tanking. Hopefully some of that was due to Graham.
I have a summary of the call.
Flores:Hey congrats on the the gig with the Giants
Judge:Thanks pal.
Flores: listen I got a man crush on our DB coach. I'm afraid someone's gonna poach him.
Judge: That would suck. Totally.
Flores: True enough. So I want to promote him to DC.
Judge: Yeah, but you've got our pal
Flores: (cuts him off) well maybe a team looking for a DC....
Judge: Aha. I see where you are going...
Flores: so can you help two friends out??
Judge: I'm sure something could be worked out.
Flores: Thanks pal. I owe you big time.
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bring on the white Yale guy!!
He’s not white...
Maybe he could be. We know Judge values versatility.
A little makeup, some Barry Manilow, L.L. Bean...hey, who's the new coach?
There is. And it’s not close.
This guy doesn't impress me (certainly not as a communicator). Judge said that as a first team head coach, he was looking for experience to lean on; this guy's about the same age.
His resume' is certainly not impressive. With the state of the team, right now, I don't get a good feeling. I certainly hope that I'm very WRONG.
😂😂😂😂😂
This guy doesn't impress me (certainly not as a communicator). Judge said that as a first team head coach, he was looking for experience to lean on; this guy's about the same age.
His resume' is certainly not impressive. With the state of the team, right now, I don't get a good feeling. I certainly hope that I'm very WRONG.
Please show me where Judge said that. I looked, but I may have missed it.
Joe Judge Introductory Press Conference
It's like politics.
Fwiw, Arnsparger was HC not a DC. He was a terrific DC for Miami and a terrible HC for us.
This guy doesn't impress me (certainly not as a communicator). Judge said that as a first team head coach, he was looking for experience to lean on; this guy's about the same age.
His resume' is certainly not impressive. With the state of the team, right now, I don't get a good feeling. I certainly hope that I'm very WRONG.
You'd have to explain to me how extensive experience under Belichick coaching both the Pats defensive line and Pat linebackers is "not impressive."
Flores/ Graham philosophy - ( New Window )
He’s an average DC
In years 2009 thru 2013, he coached the Pats defense along with Pepper Johnson.
As far as his one year in Miami, if you actually watch the games, and it's obvious many of you running your mouths don't, his defense showed improvement. Watch week 17 v the Pats and it's obvious. New England needed that win...at home.
So let's see how it goes. You whiny lil' bitches better get your seatbacks and tray tables in order. Mara is done with quick switches. We hired a young first time HC and he's all in for four years come Hell or high water. I almost wish we'd lose for two years just so I can watch you all lose your shit as your collective pea sized brains explode. Almost.
Will it be successful immediately, or even soon? Until the Giants upgrade the talent on the D, NO scheme is going to be successful. It may well look as ugly as everything else has for the last two years. But at least they'll start acquiring guys that will fit that system. And weeding-out guys who don't. Once they have the right guys, it could look very much like the Pats system.
But it's probably gonna require a lot more patience than most fans have (left).
Let's just hope the arrow starts pointing UP.
Graham's even more of a no-name than Judge, but I get the reasoning behind the hire.
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great players or he doesn’t do much? I saw him with us and in various roles in St. louis, he is not in the class of Landry, Parcells, Belicheck, or even Arnsbarger as a Giant DC.
He’s an average DC
Well you named some pretty big HOF names right there, I’d say 99% of coordinators in history aren’t on the level of Landry and Belichick. But when he has the horses Spags has gotten the job done in big moments. If you have talent on defense Spags knows how to utilize it.
Holding the 2007 Pays offense to 14 points in and of itself was a HOF performance, not saying he should be in the HOF I’m saying that was one of the great defensive performances in the history of the sport.
And the innovativeness of putting Justin Tuck (an edge rusher) on the inside to go against a guard was something that was no often done before that game, and since then that has become the NFL blueprint for beating the Pats and almost every great pass rushing team does it.
Also remember the fake drop back by Mitchell and then he came rushing up the middle... there were so many smart plays run by that defense in XLII, Spags and the rest of the coaching staff had them thinking on another level.
Again Spags is not a HOF coach and he certainly failed as a HC, but when he’s had the horses he’s gotten the job done and you can’t always say that about every DC when given talent.
Simply due to that performance in XLII you simply won’t hear me ever say a bad word about Spags. Period.
So let's see how it goes. You whiny lil' bitches better get your seatbacks and tray tables in order. Mara is done with quick switches. We hired a young first time HC and he's all in for four years come Hell or high water. I almost wish we'd lose for two years just so I can watch you all lose your shit as your collective pea sized brains explode. Almost.
Holy shit, give that man a hand! (stands and starts slow clap)
Only caveat I'll have about this is that we saw similar articles about Bettcher. That said I already trust Judge more than Shurmur and I sure as hell respect the Pats more than the Cards, even when the Cards were good.
In answer to the question "So, just how you sort of sold them with that asterisk on the resume that you were ready to be a head coach", he answered this way ...
"And as a young head coach, I’m going to lean on Dave Gettleman, I’m going to lean on the assistants I hire, I’m going to lean on having the right people in the building to fill in some of the blanks that I may have"
To me this means that he anticipates that as a coach with comparative limited experience, he will have knowledge gaps. I think that is very wise of him.
Robert E.Lee once said "The education of a man is never completed until he dies"
I'm very, very impressed with Joe Judge. It's very rare to find many men who know themselves this well.
t's very rare to find a man who knows himself this well.
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Gives Graham's general philosophy. I'm not enthused, disappointed or surprised by this hire. Joe is going to want
So let's see how it goes. You whiny lil' bitches better get your seatbacks and tray tables in order. Mara is done with quick switches. We hired a young first time HC and he's all in for four years come Hell or high water. I almost wish we'd lose for two years just so I can watch you all lose your shit as your collective pea sized brains explode. Almost.
Holy shit, give that man a hand! (stands and starts slow clap)
Yup couldn’t agree more. Some of the incessant whining that goes on here is worse than an entitled 12 year old girl.
With Shurmur/Bettcher, it was painfully obvious that they really stunk on gameday in their own right, and the teaching was not getting through to the players. When mental and physical errors are repeated over and over, that's poor coaching. The brass saw it, and it sparked the changes.
They're still on the hook for improving the talent level. And, with a third offseason of infusion hopefully Judge and the new staff will demonstrate their abilities to set a foundation and TEACH the players.
Also, he suggests that Glenn may not be out of the running for a position.
He is currently a DB coach
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In comment 14775406 FatMan in Charlotte said:
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bring on the white Yale guy!!
He’s not white...
Maybe he could be. We know Judge values versatility.
A little makeup, some Barry Manilow, L.L. Bean...hey, who's the new coach?
Barry, sing to one of my sweeeeet melodies!
+1 That was my first thought ")
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Graham matches his philosophy, that’s why he was hired. I’ll keep saying, people here have to stop looking at things in a traditional way. The correct answer about whether the base is 3-4 or 4-3 is “yes”. That was both Judges answer AND Graham when asked in Miami last year. Whatever it takes.
And yet I guarantee you we will see dozens of threads in the next two months about whether we are a 3-4 or 4-3 defense.
The answer to that question is watch the Patriots. They change fronts all of the time.
And it’s been said over and over by Belichick “you need smart players to change philosophies every week but you can’t doubt the success of this strategy .......I like it because it teaches the team to overcome adversity and easily make halftime adjustments something Shurmur could not do
Also, he suggests that Glenn may not be out of the running for a position.
The title of Pass Game Coordinator is becoming popular in the NFL now. Also Glenn is the coach Lattimore arguing with during the playoff game. So he might be looking for a change as well. Secondary Coach with the additional title?
Positives
Clearly, this is who Joe Judge wanted. It doesn't seem like there was even much of a search on this one.
His views are aligned with Judge around versatility
Interviews talk highly of his ability to develop players.
Concerns
Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
Will his scheme be too complicated for a young Giants' defense? The rumors out of Miami are that O'Shea was fired and they were okay with Graham walking because the offensive and defensive schemes were similar to the Pats and difficult for younger players to pick up.
Gut feel, but I have some concern that he has shades of McAdoo in the sense that he's the smartest guy in the room, but he overthinks things.
It's not a crime to not be Parcells or Landry. Those are hall of fame coaches. You can be good at your job and not be a hall of fame coach. Name all the current defensive coordinators to do great things without great players.
Finding the right talent to play in this idea of a defense is going to be a challenge.
go follow the Jets then
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Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
For example, against the Steelers, they ran an all out blitz at the end of the half when it was 3rd and 20 from the Dolphins 45. This resulted in a TD for the Steelers.
Finding the right talent to play in this idea of a defense is going to be a challenge.
Absolutely.
There was a thread started a few days ago in which the OP we'd win something like three more games this year than we did last year. My take was "not so fast." I expect a fair amount of turmoil early on, and quite possibly a good deal of roster-turnover this year and next as Judge and his staff attempt to put together a roster "in their image." That's not going to happen overnight (if it happens at all, let's be honest).
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Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
I guess he got a transcript of every play being run and analyzed it, much like Brian Baldinger does.
On a side note, when we played Miami, the announcers made a point in telling us Miami’s weakness is their defensive line, and apparently they were right because we did abuse them. So, maybe in all fairness to Graham, he just didn’t have much to work with and tried to make the best with what he had. His defense surprisingly held the Patriots to 24 points in the last game to beat them. Don’t ask me how they only scored 24 when we scored in the 30s.
every article i see says he calls the plays.
every article i see says he calls the plays.
He called the plays.
Its so funny how so many people have formed opinions on this coach when they know nothing about him. I hope he can get the most out of the talent we have on this team and I expect a lot of upgrades on D to help him via mid level FAs that fit like they do in NE. Rarely do they dip into top end FA unless its a game changer, usually a CB.
I think the comment about Kitchens a few days ago is telling that he doesnt hire friends. Judge doesnt respect Kitchens as a coach.
Or he just doesn't want to mix a personal relationship with business and possibly be in a position where he would have to fire a close friend.
Judge and Kitchens are friends and have been for years.
i like that graham uses the 46 bear alignment.
Also, he suggests that Glenn may not be out of the running for a position.
What's this reference about a quote?
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points out that only Dalvin Tomlinson remains from the 2016 defense. So the quote must have come from him.
Also, he suggests that Glenn may not be out of the running for a position.
What's this reference about a quote?
Seen this and was wondering the same? Can Eric or anyone follow up?
Be a fan, LETS GO!
I mean I know they're not mutually exclusive, but from the way it's being presented it sounds like Graham is being put in the category of teacher rather than some sort of defensive mind. Ideally you want and really need both.
The Giants need to build a PROGRAM.. the teams that are the most successful in ANY sport have a program.. the Giants have no foundation.. no identity.. they need one.. badly..
I mean I know they're not mutually exclusive, but from the way it's being presented it sounds like Graham is being put in the category of teacher rather than some sort of defensive mind. Ideally you want and really need both.
Judge stressed fundamentals in his presser, so I think the guys he is bringing in will play a big role in that as well.
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wanted to coach our current Defense...
+1 That was my first thought ")
Good Stuff
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
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let him go?
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Blah. The Panthers just hired the Colts DL coach on a lateral move. Sometimes guys don’t stand in the way of people they have a good relationship with
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
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In comment 14775424 section125 said:
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let him go?
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
Blah. The Panthers just hired the Colts DL coach on a lateral move. Sometimes guys don’t stand in the way of people they have a good relationship with
Was his contract up as the DL coach with Colts?
That would be different if that were the case.
In Graham's case, A)it wasn't, and
B)worked with both Flores and Judge as members of the Pats staff, not exactly a compelling argument.
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points out that only Dalvin Tomlinson remains from the 2016 defense. So the quote must have come from him.
Also, he suggests that Glenn may not be out of the running for a position.
What's this reference about a quote?
Quote I posted above from the player.
"That's great," one player who has worked extensively with Graham said after hearing about the hiring. "He's a good coach."
Usually need intense good coaching.
Usually career ends in 4 years.
Key to depth for a team like the Giants is getting bottom round and UFDA's ready to play and step in. Think Patriots. Think rookie Malcolm Butler prepared in the right place and prepared to see the play when it matters
Cant execute anything exotic or scheme flexible until the foundation is in place.
They aren't going guru. They don't believe scheme wrinkles win enough games. They are preparing multiflex from multi players
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
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It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
.
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
awesome fan
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let him go?
Maybe because they allowed 31 points a game is a good guess? I don't get this this move.
As I said when Judge was hired, want to see the coaching staff he puts together.
The Dolphins allowed the Giants to interview on a lateral move, that should tell people something.
miami's offense couldn't sustain drives. they were like us in that everything collapsed in the second half more often than not
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In comment 14776567 bigblue5611_2 said:
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It could also be a win/win all the way around. Maybe the Dolphins wanted to give do Graham a solid while not wanting to lose the guy they just promoted to DC?
As far as the points allowed, have you looked at the "talent" he had to work with in Miami?
.
Did you see the 'talent' in the Giants secondary?
Nothing to get overly excited about, just saying.
This roster stinks.
awesome fan
I mean they had 4 wins and a defense ranked in the 30s. If being a bad fan means noting things that actually happened, being a fan is dumb.
Usually need intense good coaching.
Usually career ends in 4 years.
Key to depth for a team like the Giants is getting bottom round and UFDA's ready to play and step in. Think Patriots. Think rookie Malcolm Butler prepared in the right place and prepared to see the play when it matters
Cant execute anything exotic or scheme flexible until the foundation is in place.
They aren't going guru. They don't believe scheme wrinkles win enough games. They are preparing multiflex from multi players
Thanks, Bill. Good to see you back.
The Giants need to build a PROGRAM.. the teams that are the most successful in ANY sport have a program.. the Giants have no foundation.. no identity.. they need one.. badly..
That's nice and all, but what about the playcalling itself? Schemes are just as important to the success of a team.
Graham has got the teaching part down, supposedly, but what about the playcalling? Graham can teach our defense about the fundamentals of tackling, but if he calls a wrong play on defense and lets up a big play, what good will that lesson on tackling do?
Again, they're not mutually exclusive, but all this talk about the importance of a teacher and not enough about schemers, strategists and defensive minds/gurus rubs me the wrong way a bit.
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but how do you even know what the playcalls were??
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Very risky defensive coordinator pick for a first time head coach. Will he be successful calling plays? Some of the plays he called for the Dolphins this year were downright boneheaded.
For example, against the Steelers, they ran an all out blitz at the end of the half when it was 3rd and 20 from the Dolphins 45. This resulted in a TD for the Steelers.
How much time left in the half? I like a blitz on 3rd and 20. Pin your ears back time as they say on TV. Not to pile on but this is one example and I'm not sure its a good example.
also Fitzmagic and the offense coughed up the ball 4 times.
too much is made over that call.
Heavens a Yale man!
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Davon Godchaux DT
C. Wilkins DT
John Jenkins DT
Jerome Baker LB
A. Van Ginkel LB
Trent Harris LB
Calvin Munson LB
Nik Needham CB
Eric Rowe CB
Adrian Colbert S
Nate Brooks DB
And they won the damn game. Wow......
LMAO! I thought the same thing
Seems like we've been running the same D for 2 years. Thank the good lord we'll be changing that
Seems like we've been running the same D for 2 years. Thank the good lord we'll be changing that
What concerns me is that Bettcher was supposed to be this guy that valued flexibility and I never saw any of this. That said, I trust Judge to make sure Graham follows through more than I did Shurmur.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
The drafting of Nick Bosa was that franchise's Riker's Beard moment.
Dolphins asking defensive players to do things many teams don’t. - ( New Window )
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...in 2018.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
Don't know but 25th in 2017.
Point is, huge jumps are possible.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
Don't know but 25th in 2017.
Point is, huge jumps are possible.
Point taken. Hopefully the Giants will play their cards right in free agency and the draft with regard to their defense. It sure would be nice to have at least one player that opposing offenses have to account for. I hope Graham is the goods, too, and can bring out the best in the guys we already have who underachieved this year.
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...in 2018.
8th in 2019.
I'm looking forward to 2020.
Without checking, my question is were injuries a factor? Was SF banged up in 2018 and healthy in 2019? Just curious.
Don't know but 25th in 2017.
Point is, huge jumps are possible.
Point taken. Hopefully the Giants will play their cards right in free agency and the draft with regard to their defense. It sure would be nice to have at least one player that opposing offenses have to account for. I hope Graham is the goods, too, and can bring out the best in the guys we already have who underachieved this year.
Amen to that!
How did DG screw over Bettcher? By signing five of his old Cardinal players? By drafting Carter, Hill, and McIntosh in his first year, and Lawrence, Baker, Ximines, Connelly, Love, and Ballentine in his second?
To borrow from Vince McMahon, "Betch screwed Betch."
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DG screwed over the last DC, Graham won't fare any better without talent.
How did DG screw over Bettcher? By signing five of his old Cardinal players? By drafting Carter, Hill, and McIntosh in his first year, and Lawrence, Baker, Ximines, Connelly, Love, and Ballentine in his second?
To borrow from Vince McMahon, "Betch screwed Betch."
Not one of those players was an established NFL talent outside of 35 year old Bethea. The overwhelming majority of those cardinals had their best seasons 4 years ago in 2016. Even Golden, the one signing DG has made outside of Dixon and a bunch of other ST players that has worked out, he was thought to be a one year wonder until he proved he could still play in 2019 after fully recovering from his injuries.
No DC would have had any success with the utter crap DG gave Bettcher to work with.
You don't win 9 games over 2 years because of bad coaching. You guys constantly pin blame on Shurmur and Bettcher. Were they great coaches? Nope. But they were also set up to fail from day 1 with this roster. Nobody could have done better with this group.
As for Shurmur he was just another example of the Peter Principle. He was a good coordinator who rose to the level of incompetence as a head coach. The NFL is littered with them.