“Last year, we were attacking,” defensive tackle Davon Godchaux told the media this week about the challenges a lineman faces when making a change like this. “Now you have to read the blocks. That’s probably the biggest challenge for me. (I am) used to getting off the ball, trying to attack the offensive line. Now you have to read and watch where they’re going and playing more with your hands out in front of you.
Speaking of Bettcher, did any coordinator ever come to the Giants with higher expectations and fail as miserably as he did?
I mean they gave him nothing. They gave him the job, then traded everything and had him start a bunch of rookies. If anything, Bettcher got a bad deal. He never had a pass rush or a backfield. Barely had a linebacker.
They went defense heavy in the last draft. And they brought in how many ex Cardinals? Five?
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Yes. A lot more.
Where is all this talent? Just a bunch of guys who havent proven anything and Leonard Williams.
Graham matches his philosophy, that’s why he was hired. I’ll keep saying, people here have to stop looking at things in a traditional way. The correct answer about whether the base is 3-4 or 4-3 is “yes”. That was both Judges answer AND Graham when asked in Miami last year. Whatever it takes.
I was upset when Graham left for the WRONG reason... Â
I was so sure Bettcher would be successful that he would get a HC gig in a yr or 2 and I was worried we would have no one one the roster to backfill as his replacement...LOL
RE: Not adding anything to the discussion but he shares a birthday Â
Graham matches his philosophy, that’s why he was hired. I’ll keep saying, people here have to stop looking at things in a traditional way. The correct answer about whether the base is 3-4 or 4-3 is “yes”. That was both Judges answer AND Graham when asked in Miami last year. Whatever it takes.
And yet I guarantee you we will see dozens of threads in the next two months about whether we are a 3-4 or 4-3 defense.
The answer to that question is watch the Patriots. They change fronts all of the time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why would Graham make a lateral move? Â
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Yes. A lot more.
Where is all this talent? Just a bunch of guys who havent proven anything and Leonard Williams.
And that just shows you how bad Miami is. As I posted their starters numerous times.
The Dolphins were implementing something pretty unusual and, no surprise, it was catastrophic at the beginning but the players got better at it and the team started to win some games later on.
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
Spagnuolo have when we hired him in 2007? How did that work out?
I also suspect we may have more talent on D than we realize. Most of the problems seem to me the result of bad coaching--i.e. players not knowing whom to cover or which gap to be in more than getting beat. Give or take Bethea who I assume will retire, voluntarily or otherwise.
Our D roster was the 00' Ravens compared to Miami's Â
and that's not an exaggeration. Among each team's starters who played more than half last year:
Have Made a Pro Bowl
MIA 0
NYG 3 (Jenkins, Williams, Ogletree)
First Round Picks
MIA 1 (Christian Wilkins)
NYG 5 (Peppers, Baker, Lawrence, Williams, Ogletree)
Day 2 picks
MIA 3 (Baker, McMillan, Rowe)
NYG 4 (Jenkins, Golden, Tomlinson, Carter)
Waived/Practice Squad in the last 12 months (starters)
MIA 5 (Avery Moss, Vince Biegel, Nik Needham, 1 CB + 1 S who both rotated a bunch)
NYG 1 (Mayo)
Bettcher's group's performance was a joke. Sure Ogletree is done and he distorts some of the categories above, but for the most part the team had an injury free year and a few guys even played well individually (Tomlinson, Lawrence, Golden). And yet the results were no better than a team full of practice squaders and cast offs, including 2 guys who couldn't even make the 53 here (Avery Moss & John Jenkins).
The Dolphins were implementing something pretty unusual and, no surprise, it was catastrophic at the beginning but the players got better at it and the team started to win some games later on.
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
I expect the same. I'm hopeful that there are a few factors that could speed things up, but I'm not confident. The main one being that Bettcher moved our guys around multiple positions and Graham could have some familiarity with the personnel here (he coached Tomlinson when he was here previously, but that may be the only guy unless im forgetting someone?). Peppers and Williams have each played in a few different defenses under different coaches too, so hopefully they are better equipped to adjust quicker.
The dolphins defense finished 30th because of the first half of the Â
Year. They played better as the year went on and with no talent. Honestly they got the best out of their players just like the Patriots do. We will see what he can do here but surprised the dolphins just let him walk.
"The Giants didn't have a single Pro Bowl player and only two teams ha Â
and that's not an exaggeration. Among each team's starters who played more than half last year:
Have Made a Pro Bowl
MIA 0
NYG 3 (Jenkins, Williams, Ogletree)
First Round Picks
MIA 1 (Christian Wilkins)
NYG 5 (Peppers, Baker, Lawrence, Williams, Ogletree)
Day 2 picks
MIA 3 (Baker, McMillan, Rowe)
NYG 4 (Jenkins, Golden, Tomlinson, Carter)
Waived/Practice Squad in the last 12 months (starters)
MIA 5 (Avery Moss, Vince Biegel, Nik Needham, 1 CB + 1 S who both rotated a bunch)
NYG 1 (Mayo)
Bettcher's group's performance was a joke. Sure Ogletree is done and he distorts some of the categories above, but for the most part the team had an injury free year and a few guys even played well individually (Tomlinson, Lawrence, Golden). And yet the results were no better than a team full of practice squaders and cast offs, including 2 guys who couldn't even make the 53 here (Avery Moss & John Jenkins).
The Phins defense was so bad that they had three Giants cast off (Moss, Jenkins, Munson) start games for them. I believe Jenkins was their starting DT/DE the entire season.
Davon Godchaux DT - 5th
Christian Wilkins DT - 1st
John Jenkins DT - 3rd
Jerome Baker LB - 3rd
Andrew Van Ginkel LB - 5th
Trent Harris LB - UDFA
Calvin Munson LB - UDFA
Nik Needham CB - UDFA
Eric Rowe CB - 2nd
Adrian Colbert S - 7th
Nate Brooks S - UDFA
7 guys who went after the 5th round or went Undrafted. A rookie DT. Another DT that's been on 5 teams in 7 years. A CB whose been on 3 teams in 5 years.
So anybody expecting results is just fooling themselves. Not a single DC in the NFL could have a consistently good defense with players like that.
Hmmm...somehow I don't think we'll be signing any of his former players to play for us.
By years end Nik Needham was a CB to watch as someone who could be a shutdown guy moving forward. A UDFA with that type of impact and skill development should not be ignored. Graham should be credited for that.
But if Judge and the defense do horribly, this will only feed the narrative. "Could've had Wade Phillips", "Could've had Kris Richard", "Could've had Rod Marinelli", "what the fuck are you doing letting a guy who has never been a head coach become our HC and he even got to choose his staff of inexperienced guys?"
RE: That article Eric on LI linked to is must reading Â
The Dolphins were implementing something pretty unusual and, no surprise, it was catastrophic at the beginning but the players got better at it and the team started to win some games later on.
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
Well, we had a dismal defense all of 2019 so any improvement next year at any point would be welcome.
Going to Yale does not of itself say much about quality. Alumni’s kids Â
get special ins, as does diversity, special private schools, etc etc. If I can think of all the hell raised about the Presidents Bush and Yale, that may say enough to eliminate Yale to many or at least how it was thrown about in the disaster of American politics.
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
But if Judge and the defense do horribly, this will only feed the narrative. "Could've had Wade Phillips", "Could've had Kris Richard", "Could've had Rod Marinelli", "what the fuck are you doing letting a guy who has never been a head coach become our HC and he even got to choose his staff of inexperienced guys?"
And of course, "you should've taken the hint when the Dolphins had no problem letting him leave"
RE: Going to Yale does not of itself say much about quality. Alumni’s kids Â
get special ins, as does diversity, special private schools, etc etc. If I can think of all the hell raised about the Presidents Bush and Yale, that may say enough to eliminate Yale to many or at least how it was thrown about in the disaster of American politics.
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
Agreed. Steve Mills and Jason Garrett went to Princeton. See how they did? And not many here want Garrett...
I dont buy "they're friends" talk, and Flores just letting him go.
If I hire a friend, I dont expect this friend to leave me, to go join another friend of ours... at least coach out the contract.
We went from looking for experience, to a guy with 1 year experience as coordinator, coaching a near bottom defense (maybe the talent wasnt there, but he sure didnt help make better, did he?), and who was let go by his HC, who also happens to be a friend.
I dont know much about the guy, & I hope it works out... but thats too many red flags for my taste.
I think our defensive line will fit well into this concept of Defense Â
Lawrence, Tomlinson, Williams (maybe), Hill, McIntosh are all fairly versatile.
I also think Connelly will be interesting to watch in this defense. Smart / instinctive player. Could overachieve and be a real leader in a scheme like Graham/Flores/Judge/Patriots run.
RE: Going to Yale does not of itself say much about quality. Alumni’s kids Â
get special ins, as does diversity, special private schools, etc etc. If I can think of all the hell raised about the Presidents Bush and Yale, that may say enough to eliminate Yale to many or at least how it was thrown about in the disaster of American politics.
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
great players or he doesn’t do much? I saw him with us and in various roles in St. louis, he is not in the class of Landry, Parcells, Belicheck, or even Arnsbarger as a Giant DC.
"That's great," one player who has worked extensively with Graham said after hearing about the hiring. "He's a good coach." https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28471607/source-patrick-graham-leaving-dolphins-giants-dc - ( New Window )
LOL. He fits the mold of want Judge wants and that’s all that matters. This is his team now and I’m fully on board with his vision. He wants leaders and teachers that will hold players accountable. Graham sounds like a bright guy that can get the most out of his players in a versatile scheme.
Nothing about this team is inspiring, I don’t care how hard they try to put a positive spin on this, the Giants are the new Browns.
Would have been nice to see them bring in veteran coordinators at the very least. Nope...
Also found this
Quote:
Speaking of Bettcher, did any coordinator ever come to the Giants with higher expectations and fail as miserably as he did?
I mean they gave him nothing. They gave him the job, then traded everything and had him start a bunch of rookies. If anything, Bettcher got a bad deal. He never had a pass rush or a backfield. Barely had a linebacker.
They went defense heavy in the last draft. And they brought in how many ex Cardinals? Five?
I’m neither excited or ticked off because I don’t know anything about him
We had a HC who was OC of the year and a proven DC we were all giddy about and it was a disaster.
I’ll wait to make any judgement here
Quote:
In comment 14775512 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
In comment 14775502 Jint Fan in Buc Land said:
Quote:
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Yes. A lot more.
Where is all this talent? Just a bunch of guys who havent proven anything and Leonard Williams.
super advanced analytics
And yet I guarantee you we will see dozens of threads in the next two months about whether we are a 3-4 or 4-3 defense.
The answer to that question is watch the Patriots. They change fronts all of the time.
Quote:
In comment 14775519 jeff57 said:
Quote:
In comment 14775512 Big Rick in FL said:
Quote:
In comment 14775502 Jint Fan in Buc Land said:
Quote:
I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?
Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.
A lot more?
Yes. A lot more.
Where is all this talent? Just a bunch of guys who havent proven anything and Leonard Williams.
And that just shows you how bad Miami is. As I posted their starters numerous times.
He was horrible
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
That’s going to be rocky.
He’s not white...
I also suspect we may have more talent on D than we realize. Most of the problems seem to me the result of bad coaching--i.e. players not knowing whom to cover or which gap to be in more than getting beat. Give or take Bethea who I assume will retire, voluntarily or otherwise.
Have Made a Pro Bowl
MIA 0
NYG 3 (Jenkins, Williams, Ogletree)
First Round Picks
MIA 1 (Christian Wilkins)
NYG 5 (Peppers, Baker, Lawrence, Williams, Ogletree)
Day 2 picks
MIA 3 (Baker, McMillan, Rowe)
NYG 4 (Jenkins, Golden, Tomlinson, Carter)
Waived/Practice Squad in the last 12 months (starters)
MIA 5 (Avery Moss, Vince Biegel, Nik Needham, 1 CB + 1 S who both rotated a bunch)
NYG 1 (Mayo)
Bettcher's group's performance was a joke. Sure Ogletree is done and he distorts some of the categories above, but for the most part the team had an injury free year and a few guys even played well individually (Tomlinson, Lawrence, Golden). And yet the results were no better than a team full of practice squaders and cast offs, including 2 guys who couldn't even make the 53 here (Avery Moss & John Jenkins).
Hufnagel?
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
I expect the same. I'm hopeful that there are a few factors that could speed things up, but I'm not confident. The main one being that Bettcher moved our guys around multiple positions and Graham could have some familiarity with the personnel here (he coached Tomlinson when he was here previously, but that may be the only guy unless im forgetting someone?). Peppers and Williams have each played in a few different defenses under different coaches too, so hopefully they are better equipped to adjust quicker.
Not much to read into.
Have Made a Pro Bowl
MIA 0
NYG 3 (Jenkins, Williams, Ogletree)
First Round Picks
MIA 1 (Christian Wilkins)
NYG 5 (Peppers, Baker, Lawrence, Williams, Ogletree)
Day 2 picks
MIA 3 (Baker, McMillan, Rowe)
NYG 4 (Jenkins, Golden, Tomlinson, Carter)
Waived/Practice Squad in the last 12 months (starters)
MIA 5 (Avery Moss, Vince Biegel, Nik Needham, 1 CB + 1 S who both rotated a bunch)
NYG 1 (Mayo)
Bettcher's group's performance was a joke. Sure Ogletree is done and he distorts some of the categories above, but for the most part the team had an injury free year and a few guys even played well individually (Tomlinson, Lawrence, Golden). And yet the results were no better than a team full of practice squaders and cast offs, including 2 guys who couldn't even make the 53 here (Avery Moss & John Jenkins).
The Phins defense was so bad that they had three Giants cast off (Moss, Jenkins, Munson) start games for them. I believe Jenkins was their starting DT/DE the entire season.
Not much to read into.
Only difference LaFleur wasn’t calling plays in LA. He called the plays in the Tennessee.
Graham was calling plays in Miami
Quote:
bring on the white Yale guy!!
I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not...
FMiC can't stop thinking of me and my BBC.
Quote:
Davon Godchaux DT - 5th
Christian Wilkins DT - 1st
John Jenkins DT - 3rd
Jerome Baker LB - 3rd
Andrew Van Ginkel LB - 5th
Trent Harris LB - UDFA
Calvin Munson LB - UDFA
Nik Needham CB - UDFA
Eric Rowe CB - 2nd
Adrian Colbert S - 7th
Nate Brooks S - UDFA
7 guys who went after the 5th round or went Undrafted. A rookie DT. Another DT that's been on 5 teams in 7 years. A CB whose been on 3 teams in 5 years.
So anybody expecting results is just fooling themselves. Not a single DC in the NFL could have a consistently good defense with players like that.
Hmmm...somehow I don't think we'll be signing any of his former players to play for us.
By years end Nik Needham was a CB to watch as someone who could be a shutdown guy moving forward. A UDFA with that type of impact and skill development should not be ignored. Graham should be credited for that.
Quote:
LaFleur was OC of the Rams for 1 season under McVay (and had come with him from Washington) and then went to Tennessee as OC the next year.
Not much to read into.
Only difference LaFleur wasn’t calling plays in LA. He called the plays in the Tennessee.
Graham was calling plays in Miami
Perhaps he missed the northeast
I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.
Well, we had a dismal defense all of 2019 so any improvement next year at any point would be welcome.
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
And of course, "you should've taken the hint when the Dolphins had no problem letting him leave"
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
Agreed. Steve Mills and Jason Garrett went to Princeton. See how they did? And not many here want Garrett...
If I hire a friend, I dont expect this friend to leave me, to go join another friend of ours... at least coach out the contract.
We went from looking for experience, to a guy with 1 year experience as coordinator, coaching a near bottom defense (maybe the talent wasnt there, but he sure didnt help make better, did he?), and who was let go by his HC, who also happens to be a friend.
I dont know much about the guy, & I hope it works out... but thats too many red flags for my taste.
I also think Connelly will be interesting to watch in this defense. Smart / instinctive player. Could overachieve and be a real leader in a scheme like Graham/Flores/Judge/Patriots run.
So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.
So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
Steve Spagnuolo says hi.
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28471607/source-patrick-graham-leaving-dolphins-giants-dc - ( New Window )
2. Did feel on draft night that Betch would be hung out to dry if we didn't trade down and go all defense. And commented on that.
3. That said - I felt that the 2-4-5 was hot doggy doo especially with our terrible lbs.. but in any case.
4. Still strongly suggesting to draft 2 true free safeties high in the draft.
As well as a lb if not two or three types of those.
Even IF it's Pat's style discipljbe we will still need such.
Sounds like we should've hired Boyer, lol.
Quote:
LaFleur was OC of the Rams for 1 season under McVay (and had come with him from Washington) and then went to Tennessee as OC the next year.
Not much to read into.
Only difference LaFleur wasn’t calling plays in LA. He called the plays in the Tennessee.
Graham was calling plays in Miami
Its Flores defense and now this is Grahams defense...
I wondering if they are waiting for his contract to be up with the Cowboys which I think is Jan 14th.