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Giants Hire Graham as DC

BeckShepEli : 1/12/2020 5:19 pm
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RE: This is not an inspiring hire  
JerryNicklebag : 1/12/2020 6:12 pm : link
In comment 14775486 Tim in Eternal Blue said:
Quote:
. It's just not.


Nothing about this team is inspiring, I don’t care how hard they try to put a positive spin on this, the Giants are the new Browns.

Would have been nice to see them bring in veteran coordinators at the very least. Nope...
The best part of his resume...  
morrison40 : 1/12/2020 6:13 pm : link
He was smart enough to leave NY when Shurmur got HIRED and even smarter to come back NOW ! 😂
Well  
ghost718 : 1/12/2020 6:14 pm : link
So much for strong names

Also found this

Quote:
“Last year, we were attacking,” defensive tackle Davon Godchaux told the media this week about the challenges a lineman faces when making a change like this. “Now you have to read the blocks. That’s probably the biggest challenge for me. (I am) used to getting off the ball, trying to attack the offensive line. Now you have to read and watch where they’re going and playing more with your hands out in front of you.
RE: RE: ...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/12/2020 6:16 pm : link
In comment 14775610 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14775562 Eric from BBI said:


Quote:


Speaking of Bettcher, did any coordinator ever come to the Giants with higher expectations and fail as miserably as he did?



I mean they gave him nothing. They gave him the job, then traded everything and had him start a bunch of rookies. If anything, Bettcher got a bad deal. He never had a pass rush or a backfield. Barely had a linebacker.


They went defense heavy in the last draft. And they brought in how many ex Cardinals? Five?
I feel the same way about this  
cjac : 1/12/2020 6:16 pm : link
As I did about the Judge hire.

I’m neither excited or ticked off because I don’t know anything about him

We had a HC who was OC of the year and a proven DC we were all giddy about and it was a disaster.

I’ll wait to make any judgement here
RE: RE: RE: RE: Why would Graham make a lateral move?  
Ten Ton Hammer : 1/12/2020 6:17 pm : link
In comment 14775525 Big Rick in FL said:
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In comment 14775519 jeff57 said:


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In comment 14775512 Big Rick in FL said:


Quote:


In comment 14775502 Jint Fan in Buc Land said:


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I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?



Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.



A lot more?



Yes. A lot more.


Where is all this talent? Just a bunch of guys who havent proven anything and Leonard Williams.
Judge wants to do things a certain way.  
Dave on the UWS : 1/12/2020 6:17 pm : link
Graham matches his philosophy, that’s why he was hired. I’ll keep saying, people here have to stop looking at things in a traditional way. The correct answer about whether the base is 3-4 or 4-3 is “yes”. That was both Judges answer AND Graham when asked in Miami last year. Whatever it takes.
I was upset when Graham left for the WRONG reason...  
morrison40 : 1/12/2020 6:19 pm : link
I was so sure Bettcher would be successful that he would get a HC gig in a yr or 2 and I was worried we would have no one one the roster to backfill as his replacement...LOL
RE: Not adding anything to the discussion but he shares a birthday  
markky : 1/12/2020 6:19 pm : link
In comment 14775458 BestFeature said:
Quote:
with Sean McVay.


super advanced analytics
RE: Judge wants to do things a certain way.  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/12/2020 6:19 pm : link
In comment 14775632 Dave on the UWS said:
Quote:
Graham matches his philosophy, that’s why he was hired. I’ll keep saying, people here have to stop looking at things in a traditional way. The correct answer about whether the base is 3-4 or 4-3 is “yes”. That was both Judges answer AND Graham when asked in Miami last year. Whatever it takes.


And yet I guarantee you we will see dozens of threads in the next two months about whether we are a 3-4 or 4-3 defense.

The answer to that question is watch the Patriots. They change fronts all of the time.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Why would Graham make a lateral move?  
Big Rick in FL : 1/12/2020 6:21 pm : link
In comment 14775631 Ten Ton Hammer said:
Quote:
In comment 14775525 Big Rick in FL said:


Quote:


In comment 14775519 jeff57 said:


Quote:


In comment 14775512 Big Rick in FL said:


Quote:


In comment 14775502 Jint Fan in Buc Land said:


Quote:


I don’t see this being discussed anywhere. Maybe I need to just eat something but I can’t think of why would a talented guy with a lot of potential move on after one year to do the exact same thing for another bad team?



Because the Giants have a lot more talent on defense than the Dolphins.



A lot more?



Yes. A lot more.



Where is all this talent? Just a bunch of guys who havent proven anything and Leonard Williams.


And that just shows you how bad Miami is. As I posted their starters numerous times.
Well,  
Diver_Down : 1/12/2020 6:22 pm : link
I guess our defense will be rated PG.
RE: Calvin Munson - Isn't that an X Giant  
Reale01 : 1/12/2020 6:26 pm : link
In comment 14775517 ZogZerg said:
Quote:
?


He was horrible
Miami D  
Bavaro_the_Mafioso : 1/12/2020 6:33 pm : link
I thought they played pretty well considering they jettisoned half the team. They also hung around in most games and beat a couple quality squads.
Graham's defense seems like the perfect fit for Simmons  
GMEN4LIFE : 1/12/2020 6:33 pm : link
Based on the flexibility needed to play multiple positions and being intelligent/athletic enough to do so.
That article Eric on LI linked to is must reading  
cosmicj : 1/12/2020 6:35 pm : link
The Dolphins were implementing something pretty unusual and, no surprise, it was catastrophic at the beginning but the players got better at it and the team started to win some games later on.

I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.

Yalie  
Giant4Life : 1/12/2020 6:36 pm : link
He's no dummy.
So how do you think DeAndre Baker is going to react  
cosmicj : 1/12/2020 6:37 pm : link
To having to study more and play positions where he needs to tackle?

That’s going to be rocky.
RE: Yes..  
tyrik13 : 1/12/2020 6:38 pm : link
In comment 14775406 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
bring on the white Yale guy!!


He’s not white...
A lot of positive things can be said about him  
micky : 1/12/2020 6:38 pm : link
But only proof of the pudding is what he does here as DC. We'll see if risk
How much experience as a coordinator did  
Mike in Boston : 1/12/2020 6:39 pm : link
Spagnuolo have when we hired him in 2007? How did that work out?

I also suspect we may have more talent on D than we realize. Most of the problems seem to me the result of bad coaching--i.e. players not knowing whom to cover or which gap to be in more than getting beat. Give or take Bethea who I assume will retire, voluntarily or otherwise.
Our D roster was the 00' Ravens compared to Miami's  
Eric on Li : 1/12/2020 6:40 pm : link
and that's not an exaggeration. Among each team's starters who played more than half last year:

Have Made a Pro Bowl
MIA 0
NYG 3 (Jenkins, Williams, Ogletree)

First Round Picks
MIA 1 (Christian Wilkins)
NYG 5 (Peppers, Baker, Lawrence, Williams, Ogletree)

Day 2 picks
MIA 3 (Baker, McMillan, Rowe)
NYG 4 (Jenkins, Golden, Tomlinson, Carter)

Waived/Practice Squad in the last 12 months (starters)
MIA 5 (Avery Moss, Vince Biegel, Nik Needham, 1 CB + 1 S who both rotated a bunch)
NYG 1 (Mayo)

Bettcher's group's performance was a joke. Sure Ogletree is done and he distorts some of the categories above, but for the most part the team had an injury free year and a few guys even played well individually (Tomlinson, Lawrence, Golden). And yet the results were no better than a team full of practice squaders and cast offs, including 2 guys who couldn't even make the 53 here (Avery Moss & John Jenkins).
RE: ...  
V.I.G. : 1/12/2020 6:41 pm : link
In comment 14775562 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
Speaking of Bettcher, did any coordinator ever come to the Giants with higher expectations and fail as miserably as he did?

Hufnagel?
RE: That article Eric on LI linked to is must reading  
Eric on Li : 1/12/2020 6:44 pm : link
In comment 14775675 cosmicj said:
Quote:
The Dolphins were implementing something pretty unusual and, no surprise, it was catastrophic at the beginning but the players got better at it and the team started to win some games later on.

I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.


I expect the same. I'm hopeful that there are a few factors that could speed things up, but I'm not confident. The main one being that Bettcher moved our guys around multiple positions and Graham could have some familiarity with the personnel here (he coached Tomlinson when he was here previously, but that may be the only guy unless im forgetting someone?). Peppers and Williams have each played in a few different defenses under different coaches too, so hopefully they are better equipped to adjust quicker.
The dolphins defense finished 30th because of the first half of the  
jgambrosio : 1/12/2020 6:45 pm : link
Year. They played better as the year went on and with no talent. Honestly they got the best out of their players just like the Patriots do. We will see what he can do here but surprised the dolphins just let him walk.
"The Giants didn't have a single Pro Bowl player and only two teams ha  
Eric on Li : 1/12/2020 6:49 pm : link
The Giants didn't have a single Pro Bowl player and only two teams had less money invested in the defensive side of the ball.
Matt LaFleur did same as Graham  
twostepgiants : 1/12/2020 6:58 pm : link
LaFleur was OC of the Rams for 1 season under McVay (and had come with him from Washington) and then went to Tennessee as OC the next year.

Not much to read into.
RE: Our D roster was the 00' Ravens compared to Miami's  
Jay on the Island : 1/12/2020 7:02 pm : link
In comment 14775688 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
and that's not an exaggeration. Among each team's starters who played more than half last year:

Have Made a Pro Bowl
MIA 0
NYG 3 (Jenkins, Williams, Ogletree)

First Round Picks
MIA 1 (Christian Wilkins)
NYG 5 (Peppers, Baker, Lawrence, Williams, Ogletree)

Day 2 picks
MIA 3 (Baker, McMillan, Rowe)
NYG 4 (Jenkins, Golden, Tomlinson, Carter)

Waived/Practice Squad in the last 12 months (starters)
MIA 5 (Avery Moss, Vince Biegel, Nik Needham, 1 CB + 1 S who both rotated a bunch)
NYG 1 (Mayo)

Bettcher's group's performance was a joke. Sure Ogletree is done and he distorts some of the categories above, but for the most part the team had an injury free year and a few guys even played well individually (Tomlinson, Lawrence, Golden). And yet the results were no better than a team full of practice squaders and cast offs, including 2 guys who couldn't even make the 53 here (Avery Moss & John Jenkins).

The Phins defense was so bad that they had three Giants cast off (Moss, Jenkins, Munson) start games for them. I believe Jenkins was their starting DT/DE the entire season.
RE: Matt LaFleur did same as Graham  
BeckShepEli : 1/12/2020 7:02 pm : link
In comment 14775711 twostepgiants said:
Quote:
LaFleur was OC of the Rams for 1 season under McVay (and had come with him from Washington) and then went to Tennessee as OC the next year.

Not much to read into.


Only difference LaFleur wasn’t calling plays in LA. He called the plays in the Tennessee.

Graham was calling plays in Miami
RE: RE: Yes..  
Darth Paul : 1/12/2020 7:04 pm : link
In comment 14775437 Biteymax22 said:
Quote:
In comment 14775406 FatMan in Charlotte said:


Quote:


bring on the white Yale guy!!



I can’t tell if this is sarcastic or not...


FMiC can't stop thinking of me and my BBC.
RE: RE: This is what he had to work with  
Really : 1/12/2020 7:05 pm : link
In comment 14775595 Klaatu said:
Quote:
In comment 14775558 Big Rick in FL said:


Quote:


Davon Godchaux DT - 5th
Christian Wilkins DT - 1st
John Jenkins DT - 3rd
Jerome Baker LB - 3rd
Andrew Van Ginkel LB - 5th
Trent Harris LB - UDFA
Calvin Munson LB - UDFA
Nik Needham CB - UDFA
Eric Rowe CB - 2nd
Adrian Colbert S - 7th
Nate Brooks S - UDFA

7 guys who went after the 5th round or went Undrafted. A rookie DT. Another DT that's been on 5 teams in 7 years. A CB whose been on 3 teams in 5 years.

So anybody expecting results is just fooling themselves. Not a single DC in the NFL could have a consistently good defense with players like that.



Hmmm...somehow I don't think we'll be signing any of his former players to play for us.


By years end Nik Needham was a CB to watch as someone who could be a shutdown guy moving forward. A UDFA with that type of impact and skill development should not be ignored. Graham should be credited for that.
RE: RE: Matt LaFleur did same as Graham  
Mike in NY : 1/12/2020 7:05 pm : link
In comment 14775717 BeckShepEli said:
Quote:
In comment 14775711 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


LaFleur was OC of the Rams for 1 season under McVay (and had come with him from Washington) and then went to Tennessee as OC the next year.

Not much to read into.



Only difference LaFleur wasn’t calling plays in LA. He called the plays in the Tennessee.

Graham was calling plays in Miami


Perhaps he missed the northeast
I'm keeping an open mind  
Anakim : 1/12/2020 7:08 pm : link
But if Judge and the defense do horribly, this will only feed the narrative. "Could've had Wade Phillips", "Could've had Kris Richard", "Could've had Rod Marinelli", "what the fuck are you doing letting a guy who has never been a head coach become our HC and he even got to choose his staff of inexperienced guys?"
RE: That article Eric on LI linked to is must reading  
GiantsRage2007 : 1/12/2020 7:08 pm : link
In comment 14775675 cosmicj said:
Quote:
The Dolphins were implementing something pretty unusual and, no surprise, it was catastrophic at the beginning but the players got better at it and the team started to win some games later on.

I would expect the same results here. This will be very unusual. I expect a dismal defense in September.



Well, we had a dismal defense all of 2019 so any improvement next year at any point would be welcome.
Going to Yale does not of itself say much about quality. Alumni’s kids  
plato : 1/12/2020 7:09 pm : link
get special ins, as does diversity, special private schools, etc etc. If I can think of all the hell raised about the Presidents Bush and Yale, that may say enough to eliminate Yale to many or at least how it was thrown about in the disaster of American politics.

So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.

So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.
RE: I'm keeping an open mind  
Anakim : 1/12/2020 7:10 pm : link
In comment 14775727 Anakim said:
Quote:
But if Judge and the defense do horribly, this will only feed the narrative. "Could've had Wade Phillips", "Could've had Kris Richard", "Could've had Rod Marinelli", "what the fuck are you doing letting a guy who has never been a head coach become our HC and he even got to choose his staff of inexperienced guys?"


And of course, "you should've taken the hint when the Dolphins had no problem letting him leave"
RE: Going to Yale does not of itself say much about quality. Alumni’s kids  
Anakim : 1/12/2020 7:11 pm : link
In comment 14775731 plato said:
Quote:
get special ins, as does diversity, special private schools, etc etc. If I can think of all the hell raised about the Presidents Bush and Yale, that may say enough to eliminate Yale to many or at least how it was thrown about in the disaster of American politics.

So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.

So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.


Agreed. Steve Mills and Jason Garrett went to Princeton. See how they did? And not many here want Garrett...
Don’t know anything about him  
JoeyBigBlue : 1/12/2020 7:11 pm : link
I just hope Gettleman can assemble some talent for him. We had a strong lack of talent on defensive side of the ball last year.
I dont buy it!!  
GloryDayz : 1/12/2020 7:15 pm : link
I dont buy "they're friends" talk, and Flores just letting him go.

If I hire a friend, I dont expect this friend to leave me, to go join another friend of ours... at least coach out the contract.

We went from looking for experience, to a guy with 1 year experience as coordinator, coaching a near bottom defense (maybe the talent wasnt there, but he sure didnt help make better, did he?), and who was let go by his HC, who also happens to be a friend.

I dont know much about the guy, & I hope it works out... but thats too many red flags for my taste.
I think our defensive line will fit well into this concept of Defense  
Ben in Tampa : 1/12/2020 7:15 pm : link
Lawrence, Tomlinson, Williams (maybe), Hill, McIntosh are all fairly versatile.

I also think Connelly will be interesting to watch in this defense. Smart / instinctive player. Could overachieve and be a real leader in a scheme like Graham/Flores/Judge/Patriots run.
RE: Going to Yale does not of itself say much about quality. Alumni’s kids  
GFAN52 : 1/12/2020 7:15 pm : link
In comment 14775731 plato said:
Quote:
get special ins, as does diversity, special private schools, etc etc. If I can think of all the hell raised about the Presidents Bush and Yale, that may say enough to eliminate Yale to many or at least how it was thrown about in the disaster of American politics.

So don’t rave about Yale as saying something highly positive about DC’s specially as Yale has not been especially proficient in football and is widely considered, although not by me, as second academically to, Goodness forbid, Haaarvaaaard.

So personally I’ll take it that Judge, who has yet to prove much other than he is a well practiced interviewee, is willing to stake his first HC opportunity on the performance of Graham who is coming off a poor first year in Dolphin land. NY/NJ will prove less than hospitable if our “D” doesn’t get a lot better a lot quicker. We have had such bad luck in the DC department after Landry, Parcells, and Belichek, that I’m not holding my breath.


Steve Spagnuolo says hi.
He is an upside  
XBRONX : 1/12/2020 7:21 pm : link
down Michael Strahan.
I think “Spags” is an overrated DC especially on this site. He needs  
plato : 1/12/2020 7:21 pm : link
great players or he doesn’t do much? I saw him with us and in various roles in St. louis, he is not in the class of Landry, Parcells, Belicheck, or even Arnsbarger as a Giant DC.
...  
Eric from BBI : Admin : 1/12/2020 7:23 pm : link
"That's great," one player who has worked extensively with Graham said after hearing about the hiring. "He's a good coach."
https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28471607/source-patrick-graham-leaving-dolphins-giants-dc - ( New Window )
Lets get Garrett for OC, then we will have the most educated staff  
PatersonPlank : 1/12/2020 7:24 pm : link
in the NFL
4 short comments  
idiotsavant : 1/12/2020 7:29 pm : link
1. Welcome aboard.

2. Did feel on draft night that Betch would be hung out to dry if we didn't trade down and go all defense. And commented on that.

3. That said - I felt that the 2-4-5 was hot doggy doo especially with our terrible lbs.. but in any case.

4. Still strongly suggesting to draft 2 true free safeties high in the draft.

As well as a lb if not two or three types of those.

Even IF it's Pat's style discipljbe we will still need such.
RE: ...  
Klaatu : 1/12/2020 7:42 pm : link
In comment 14775753 Eric from BBI said:
Quote:
"That's great," one player who has worked extensively with Graham said after hearing about the hiring. "He's a good coach." https://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/28471607/source-patrick-graham-leaving-dolphins-giants-dc - ( New Window )


Sounds like we should've hired Boyer, lol.
But his dEfenSe in MiAmEE was TeRrIble!!  
Saquads26 : 1/12/2020 7:46 pm : link
LOL. He fits the mold of want Judge wants and that’s all that matters. This is his team now and I’m fully on board with his vision. He wants leaders and teachers that will hold players accountable. Graham sounds like a bright guy that can get the most out of his players in a versatile scheme.
RE: RE: Matt LaFleur did same as Graham  
jvm52106 : 1/12/2020 7:51 pm : link
In comment 14775717 BeckShepEli said:
Quote:
In comment 14775711 twostepgiants said:


Quote:


LaFleur was OC of the Rams for 1 season under McVay (and had come with him from Washington) and then went to Tennessee as OC the next year.

Not much to read into.



Only difference LaFleur wasn’t calling plays in LA. He called the plays in the Tennessee.

Graham was calling plays in Miami


Its Flores defense and now this is Grahams defense...
RE: Lets get Garrett for OC, then we will have the most educated staff  
Blue21 : 1/12/2020 7:51 pm : link
In comment 14775754 PatersonPlank said:
Quote:
in the NFL


I wondering if they are waiting for his contract to be up with the Cowboys which I think is Jan 14th.
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