Isaiah Simmons tonight

For all the stat lovers you can stop citing stats to make your argument about Simmons. Free blitz lanes and free hits off the edge unblocked to tackle the back for a loss. That accounts for his tackle for a loss. He looked horrible blitzing when he had to actually beat a man. He would actually get stuck to the lineman and not disengage. He can’t stop the run he’s quickly washed out of thE play. He didn’t play linebacker unless you call playing 10 yards of the los a linebacker. You guys still think he’s playing linebacker your kidding me. His best plays of the night came when he was lined up vs moss 1 on 1 outside in the slot or out wide. That’s where he thrived. Moss isn’t the fastest or best route runner. In the nfl Simmons is a safety. He will get destroyed vs nfl talent in coverage. Not all nfl WRs are as slow as Thaddeus Moss. Also, to label Simmons soft isn’t exactly inaccurate and I can’t blame him he’s built very very thin and stop comparing him to guys like Urlacher. It’s stupid. Urlacher was 258 coming out of college. Simmons is 230 soaking wet with 5 pound dumbbells in his pants pocket.

In comment 14778164 Tuckrule said:

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For all the stat lovers you can stop citing stats to make your argument about Simmons. Free blitz lanes and free hits off the edge unblocked to tackle the back for a loss. That accounts for his tackle for a loss. He looked horrible blitzing when he had to actually beat a man. He would actually get stuck to the lineman and not disengage. He can’t stop the run he’s quickly washed out of thE play. He didn’t play linebacker unless you call playing 10 yards of the los a linebacker. You guys still think he’s playing linebacker your kidding me. His best plays of the night came when he was lined up vs moss 1 on 1 outside in the slot or out wide. That’s where he thrived. Moss isn’t the fastest or best route runner. In the nfl Simmons is a safety. He will get destroyed vs nfl talent in coverage. Not all nfl WRs are as slow as Thaddeus Moss. Also, to label Simmons soft isn’t exactly inaccurate and I can’t blame him he’s built very very thin and stop comparing him to guys like Urlacher. It’s stupid. Urlacher was 258 coming out of college. Simmons is 230 soaking wet with 5 pound dumbbells in his pants pocket.

He can cover TE’s which Moss is. There were flashes and he clearly has athletic ability. I just did not see someone I would spend a #4 pick on. Maybe it was the scheme, but he is too easily neutralized when the DL can’t keep blockers off of him. That being said it did look like wherever possible LSU tried to work away from him. If you have someone who can shut down a portion of the field just due to their presence it makes it easier to cover the rest. I would not take him off the board in Round 1, but for me he is more of a target if we trade back for more picks.

He is extremely slow in and out of breaks and doesn’t appear to be much of a blocker. Also he had no idea how to use his body to shield a DB.. I do not see moss being an nfl tight end. Poor mans Dustin Keller. Simmons was not disruptive all over the field. The only thing he did was stop moss a few times. Other than that he was washed away most plays. He made plays on free rushes. I don’t see anyone going nuts over the mike linebacker, stalski, who played the best of any of the Clemson linebackers until his ejection.

The risk is compounded that if you take him (as a safety) you think you have filled a requirement and skip a true deep safety a few picks later. Or rounds.

Whereas you might use both.

Maybe trade down if possible, take (McKinney or someone) and the #1 or#2 ILB.

Unless this kid is a true deep safety and just didn't play that as reported here in bbi in this game .

of Julian Peterson

In comment 14778164 Tuckrule said:

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For all the stat lovers you can stop citing stats to make your argument about Simmons. Free blitz lanes and free hits off the edge unblocked to tackle the back for a loss. That accounts for his tackle for a loss. He looked horrible blitzing when he had to actually beat a man. He would actually get stuck to the lineman and not disengage. He can’t stop the run he’s quickly washed out of thE play. He didn’t play linebacker unless you call playing 10 yards of the los a linebacker. You guys still think he’s playing linebacker your kidding me. His best plays of the night came when he was lined up vs moss 1 on 1 outside in the slot or out wide. That’s where he thrived. Moss isn’t the fastest or best route runner. In the nfl Simmons is a safety. He will get destroyed vs nfl talent in coverage. Not all nfl WRs are as slow as Thaddeus Moss. Also, to label Simmons soft isn’t exactly inaccurate and I can’t blame him he’s built very very thin and stop comparing him to guys like Urlacher. It’s stupid. Urlacher was 258 coming out of college. Simmons is 230 soaking wet with 5 pound dumbbells in his pants pocket.

This.

He’s not what the Giants should be building around at 4.

Reminds me when everyone loved Zach Cunningham here leading into the draft. Raved about his coverage and ability to shut down TEs. How good did he look vs Kelce?

In comment 14777999 Blue Dream said:

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Either Detroit will take him or he will be available and Gettleman will make some other pick just to show everyone how smart he is like Jeudy

If Mr. Hog Mollies of all people takes Jeudy he should be canned on the spot.

the pick will likely be the best OT (Thomas , Wills, Wirfs, or?) or Okudah.

I'd bet a grand right now DG won't select Simmons or any WR at that slot.

but I bet he struggles in run support early in his career.

Aside from that, I think he's a really unique talent.

In comment 14778204 BlueLou'sBack said:

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the pick will likely be the best OT (Thomas , Wills, Wirfs, or?) or Okudah. I'd bet a grand right now DG won't select Simmons or any WR at that slot.

I’d bet a million. He’s going to do exactly what you said. He’s going to take the best lineman available to protect his 2 major assets in Daniel jones and saquon Barkley. I actually believe he does trade down and still selects an OT. I wouldn’t mind wirfs. Looks like a mauler at right tackle. Reminds me of Kmac

AND he lands in a spot with a creative staff who makes an effort to use him to the best of his abilities he might be a player. But you run the risk of a Jabrill Peppers situation. And I'm not comparing their games, rather projecting what Simmons career may very well end up looking like. Which is to say a really athletic player who does quite a few things fairly well but excels at nothing. A guy who will wow you once every few weeks on pure athleticism but always leaves you wanting more, because you can almost never win consistently on athleticism alone at this level.

He's a huge risk at 4. There are few if any "finished products" coming out but there are so many variables here and I don't think he's the kind of risk the team can afford at this point. If you want a safety in rd 1 (because he's not a LBer. He's just not. He might end up a pro bowler, who knows, but it wont be as a LBer) trade down and take Delpit.

In comment 14778217 Tuckrule said:

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In comment 14778204 BlueLou'sBack said: Quote: the pick will likely be the best OT (Thomas , Wills, Wirfs, or?) or Okudah. I'd bet a grand right now DG won't select Simmons or any WR at that slot. I’d bet a million. He’s going to do exactly what you said. He’s going to take the best lineman available to protect his 2 major assets in Daniel jones and saquon Barkley. I actually believe he does trade down and still selects an OT. I wouldn’t mind wirfs. Looks like a mauler at right tackle. Reminds me of Kmac

I hope they improve the OL as well, I just don’t see DG trading down.

but 4 is too high. I don't see how he can be an every down LB in the NFL, and if not, are you taking a safety at #4? Maybe if he's the next Ed Reed, but I don't see that in Simmons. Yes, he can cover a TE, but he struggles shedding blocks and he is a poor pass rusher. He can get to the QB, but has to be schemed there. He doesn't have the pass rush chops to get there otherwise.

Its going to be a QB spot. Dont fuck this up.

High risk, high reward. Either trade down or try to find the most solid starter you can find. Any position. Don’t tell me there is anything a #4 pick can’t do.

I know that is easy to say and hard to do.

Really hope they take one of those stud OLineman if both YOung and Okudah are off the board

As athletic as Tremaine Edmunds was, Simmons is much more athletic. 40 inch vertical, sub 4.4 speed, 6’4 height. In the words of Joe judge, I’m going to tell you what he can do, not what he can’t do.

Proficient at tracking ball carriers inside out, won’t overrun the play, elite range, makes sideline to sideline tackles with ease. Won’t be fooled on bootleg. A force on qb spy. Can play qb and pitch at the same time. Can cover deep middle in Tampa 2 Scheme, shows versatility to cover a deep 3rd from the linebacker position. Will make plays on the ball. Good eyes in zone coverage. Dominant against TE’s in man coverage. He doesn’t false step. Good play recognitions, good feel for where the play is going. Plays with wide, explosive base. Keeps shoulders square to the line of scrimmage.

If a coach can’t work with that on a team full of space eaters, I don’t know what to tell you.

In comment 14778349 aGiantGuy said:

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As athletic as Tremaine Edmunds was, Simmons is much more athletic. 40 inch vertical, sub 4.4 speed, 6’4 height. In the words of Joe judge, I’m going to tell you what he can do, not what he can’t do. Proficient at tracking ball carriers inside out, won’t overrun the play, elite range, makes sideline to sideline tackles with ease. Won’t be fooled on bootleg. A force on qb spy. Can play qb and pitch at the same time. Can cover deep middle in Tampa 2 Scheme, shows versatility to cover a deep 3rd from the linebacker position. Will make plays on the ball. Good eyes in zone coverage. Dominant against TE’s in man coverage. He doesn’t false step. Good play recognitions, good feel for where the play is going. Plays with wide, explosive base. Keeps shoulders square to the line of scrimmage. If a coach can’t work with that on a team full of space eaters, I don’t know what to tell you.

Edmunds also outweighs Simmons by 20 lbs. Now you can argue that Simmons can put on weight, but how will that impact his explosiveness? And what I imagine will be of concern to NFL GM's is how thin his lower body is. If he can't bulk up his legs, he's going to have a hard time being an every down LB.

On other plays, seemed like he was not giving 100% effort and/or just got outmuscled.

I think I'd pass on him at #4, but that's just my $.02. If the Giants want him there, I'm all in.

In comment 14778422 Del Shofner said:

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On other plays, seemed like he was not giving 100% effort and/or just got outmuscled. I think I'd pass on him at #4, but that's just my $.02. If the Giants want him there, I'm all in.

He looked gassed for sure, around the second half after the offense would get a few first downs or a big play, he’d look out of his element playing safety having to cover all that ground.

In comment 14778388 Section331 said:

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In comment 14778349 aGiantGuy said: Quote: As athletic as Tremaine Edmunds was, Simmons is much more athletic. 40 inch vertical, sub 4.4 speed, 6’4 height. In the words of Joe judge, I’m going to tell you what he can do, not what he can’t do. Proficient at tracking ball carriers inside out, won’t overrun the play, elite range, makes sideline to sideline tackles with ease. Won’t be fooled on bootleg. A force on qb spy. Can play qb and pitch at the same time. Can cover deep middle in Tampa 2 Scheme, shows versatility to cover a deep 3rd from the linebacker position. Will make plays on the ball. Good eyes in zone coverage. Dominant against TE’s in man coverage. He doesn’t false step. Good play recognitions, good feel for where the play is going. Plays with wide, explosive base. Keeps shoulders square to the line of scrimmage. If a coach can’t work with that on a team full of space eaters, I don’t know what to tell you. Edmunds also outweighs Simmons by 20 lbs. Now you can argue that Simmons can put on weight, but how will that impact his explosiveness? And what I imagine will be of concern to NFL GM's is how thin his lower body is. If he can't bulk up his legs, he's going to have a hard time being an every down LB.

Tremaine Edmunds was 250, but he looked absolutely lost taking on blockers, he also false stepped a lot, constantly overran the play and would end up on the other side of the field from where the ball was. He had warts, the Bills took a chance, it paid off. I would love for Gettleman to take a chance here.

Simmons seems very athletic, but in my layman POV I'm not sure he is physical enough to play LB in the NFL. There were a number of times he seemed to shy away from contact, the play on the sideline was one. You can't play LB in the NFL doing this.

Queen on the other hand was hitting everyone

In comment 14778496 PatersonPlank said:

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Simmons seems very athletic, but in my layman POV I'm not sure he is physical enough to play LB in the NFL. There were a number of times he seemed to shy away from contact, the play on the sideline was one. You can't play LB in the NFL doing this. Queen on the other hand was hitting everyone

Queen was amazing, I saw a draft site that had him as the 36th ranked off ball linebacker, that cannot be right. I like him more than I liked Devin White last year. Good, smart overall linebacker play. Maybe we can get him in the 3rd

In comment 14778507 aGiantGuy said:

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In comment 14778496 PatersonPlank said: Quote: Simmons seems very athletic, but in my layman POV I'm not sure he is physical enough to play LB in the NFL. There were a number of times he seemed to shy away from contact, the play on the sideline was one. You can't play LB in the NFL doing this. Queen on the other hand was hitting everyone Queen was amazing, I saw a draft site that had him as the 36th ranked off ball linebacker, that cannot be right. I like him more than I liked Devin White last year. Good, smart overall linebacker play. Maybe we can get him in the 3rd

I think Queen is a junior, is he coming out?

In comment 14778487 aGiantGuy said:

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Tremaine Edmunds was 250, but he looked absolutely lost taking on blockers, he also false stepped a lot, constantly overran the play and would end up on the other side of the field from where the ball was. He had warts, the Bills took a chance, it paid off. I would love for Gettleman to take a chance here.

As I said, I like Simmons, but not at #4. Bills took Edmunds with the 16th pick, I'd love for the Giants to trade down, get additional picks and take Simmons. I just don't see the value at 4.

.

In comment 14778518 PatersonPlank said:

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I think Queen is a junior, is he coming out?

Queen hasn't declared yet, as far as I know.

a lack of physicality or willingness to engage in contact. This is football, it's violent. No interest in chase players, I want violent tacklers who beat up the opponent.

In comment 14778630 JonC said:

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a lack of physicality or willingness to engage in contact. This is football, it's violent. No interest in chase players, I want violent tacklers who beat up the opponent.

I hear ya, but I wouldn’t mind coaching Simmons into that. You really can’t fault the guy for playing his position. It’s not like he was playing LB and got caught up in the wash every down. Swinney asked him to do a ton of different things and none of them included playing inside linebacker.

Edwards-Helaire squats 700 lbs, trucked a number of Clemson defenders as well as took some ankles, but when it came to 1 on 1 vs Simmons, that’s where the buck stopped, same thing against J.K. Dobbins. He showed plenty physicality, it just came in space, which is understandably hard to project.

Ryan Shazier was trucked by Sammy Watkins in the orange bowl. He had similar issues with getting caught in traffic and engulfed by larger blockers, but he was super athletic and could tackle well.

In college, he was in the 230 range, 40 inch Vert, some say he was sub 4.4, people thought he could only play will, said he lacked sand in his pants, he became a top 3 MLB in the NFL. He got better at playing blocks, him, Kuechly, and Wagner became the standard for what a 3 down mlb looks like.
Simmons is not only just as athletic but destroys Shazier in terms of wingspan.

and slightly faster Leonard Floyd. Sick athlete but too light in the pants to play LB in the NFL. Don't like him at all

At least can cover TE’s. Something we haven’t done in years.

He is a good player and I havent watched a ton of him so maybe it was an off game but the guy is just not physical enough for a LB. He's barely physical enough as a safety. I am looking for a guy that jumps off the screen when you see him and I see some flashes and thats not good enough at 4. I would rather go OT.

need an ideal landing spot in the NFL. I have no idea the defensive philosophy we'll employ, but a hybrid LB/S is where he's going to thrive.

And he'll likely be a difference maker there.

In comment 14778914 FatMan in Charlotte said:

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need an ideal landing spot in the NFL. I have no idea the defensive philosophy we'll employ, but a hybrid LB/S is where he's going to thrive. And he'll likely be a difference maker there.

How similar is he to Deion Jones in Atlanta?

Jones is the type of player that is really impactful in the modern NFL.

Can stick with dynamic backs/TEs, blitz, do a little bit of everything.

a couple inches taller, but they play a similar game.

Simmons isn't remotely in Shazier's class even as a collegian.

I see why fans like the speed and range and AA. But it tends to miss the mark on what you need in a front seven player and #4 overall pick investment. He's probably going to be part Leonard Floyd part FS. Not interested at #4. Note, I didn't love Floyd either.

and a multi-toolbox player as it appears that the Giants will have their own opinion of him.

I will note Carl Banks has a Man crush on him and that's interesting.

In comment 14779308 JonC said:

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Note, I didn't love Floyd either.

John, how could you say?

In comment 14779308 JonC said:

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Simmons isn't remotely in Shazier's class even as a collegian. I see why fans like the speed and range and AA. But it tends to miss the mark on what you need in a front seven player and #4 overall pick investment. He's probably going to be part Leonard Floyd part FS. Not interested at #4. Note, I didn't love Floyd either.

I agree with everything JonC is saying. I don't want to spend the #4 pick on a hybrid LB/SS who shies away from contact and who we don't even know what his role is going to be or what he's going to be able to do in the NFL. You can say "well he's a hybrid he can do so many things"... yeah or he won't be able to do anything. He might be too slow to cover NFL speed and not strong enough to take on NFL OL.

Chase Young and Jeffrey Okudah are the only players I like as top 5 prospects and unfortunately I'm pretty sure they're both going to be gone by #4. The only good thing about that is that would mean all QBs aside from Burrow will still be on the board and we would be in prime position to trade down.

I like Thomas and Jeudy as well but DL is the last of our needs at the moment and I don't want a WR with the #4 pick. Best case scenario is we trade down and get a haul and thereby get more of the red chip players JonC is saying there are in this draft instead of forcing a pick and convincing ourselves a guy is blue chip prospect when he simply isn't.

It's so funny to think about how much a loss to the Redskins in week 15 would have simplified everything. The choice would have been much more obvious and clear-cut and it would have reduced the number of threads re: the draft by like 90%.

In comment 14779693 Leg of Theismann said:

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In comment 14779308 JonC said: Quote: Simmons isn't remotely in Shazier's class even as a collegian. I see why fans like the speed and range and AA. But it tends to miss the mark on what you need in a front seven player and #4 overall pick investment. He's probably going to be part Leonard Floyd part FS. Not interested at #4. Note, I didn't love Floyd either. I agree with everything JonC is saying. I don't want to spend the #4 pick on a hybrid LB/SS who shies away from contact and who we don't even know what his role is going to be or what he's going to be able to do in the NFL. You can say "well he's a hybrid he can do so many things"... yeah or he won't be able to do anything. He might be too slow to cover NFL speed and not strong enough to take on NFL OL. Chase Young and Jeffrey Okudah are the only players I like as top 5 prospects and unfortunately I'm pretty sure they're both going to be gone by #4. The only good thing about that is that would mean all QBs aside from Burrow will still be on the board and we would be in prime position to trade down. I like Thomas and Jeudy as well but DL is the last of our needs at the moment and I don't want a WR with the #4 pick. Best case scenario is we trade down and get a haul and thereby get more of the red chip players JonC is saying there are in this draft instead of forcing a pick and convincing ourselves a guy is blue chip prospect when he simply isn't. It's so funny to think about how much a loss to the Redskins in week 15 would have simplified everything. The choice would have been much more obvious and clear-cut and it would have reduced the number of threads re: the draft by like 90%.

this debate on simmons's position is going to last for the next four months and i find it extremely tiring. if you don't clearly see how he's going to be used you harp on how his particular inability to fill traditional roles at linebacker and cornerback (nickel) positions are going to say those issues are fatal.

great.

that's how you feel.

you will ignore his strengths and what makes him unique. or you'll say what makes him unique either won't work in the nfl (despite no meaningful comps, and no, urlacher and floyd are not comps people are making, they're foils you use), or that he really isn't good in the first place.

you'll say hybrid players are inherently risky and players who fit traditional roles are more successful.

or maybe you'll say those things aren't necessarily true but that therefore he's not worth it at #4.

fine.

the team will grade him and pick or not pick him accordingly.

debating this further will be circular and without further information, unfruitful.

i'm no simmons activist it just seems everyone arguing against him are missing the mark on the premise on which they evaluate him. they'll say abstract things like, "no, players list him are later first round picks". but what if there aren't that many players better than that? seems that doesn't matter.

if he's that good and grades that high he should be drafted that high.

we'll see what the giant's think in april.

In comment 14779341 BigBlueCane said:

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and a multi-toolbox player as it appears that the Giants will have their own opinion of him. I will note Carl Banks has a Man crush on him and that's interesting.

He's got the highest ceiling in the draft. There is definitely risk taking him at #4, but the upside could be huge. You can't teach that speed or the length. Clemson asks him to do everything on that defense. I really like the track background, too.

Last night, they were basically in a 3-1-7 the entire night with Simmons patrolling the middle. But LSU just had too many answers outside the hashes. Simmons still had a nice night - 7 tackles, 2 passes defended, 2 tackles for losses, and sack.

Posters who haven't really seen him play over the entire season look at one game in a bubble and judge exclusively off that. I see a bigger version of Minkah Fitzpatrick and that rover role he played at Bama...

I expect he'll light up the Combine, come in bigger (because he can now add more weight with the season over), and

A unanimous 1st team all-American is not in Shazier’s class as a collegian? I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

In comment 14779721 aGiantGuy said:

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A unanimous 1st team all-American is not in Shazier’s class as a collegian? I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

The list of 1st team All Americans who didn't amount to a hill of beans in the NFL can pave I-80 from the GW to the Golden Gate bridges...

Well make that the Oakkand SF Bay Bridge.

and has shown he lacks a 100% motor

Can be a good NFL player but wouldn't take him at #4.

/
Link - ( New Window )

In comment 14779726 BlueLou'sBack said:

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In comment 14779721 aGiantGuy said: Quote: A unanimous 1st team all-American is not in Shazier’s class as a collegian? I guess we just have to agree to disagree. The list of 1st team All Americans who didn't amount to a hill of beans in the NFL can pave I-80 from the GW to the Golden Gate bridges... Well make that the Oakkand SF Bay Bridge.

Keyword: Unanimous. Show me that list.

Shazier’s not on it

In comment 14779721 aGiantGuy said:

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A unanimous 1st team all-American is not in Shazier’s class as a collegian? I guess we just have to agree to disagree.

Two entirely different players. Shazier was a pure inside LB who projected to LB in the NFL. Simmons is going to be a hybrid peg. The kid in Buffalo is a different player as well, he's got enough size and pop to his physical game Simmons doesn't display.

I'm done with the Simmons debate. Those skinny legs and his avoiding contact infuriate me. Giants could draft him and I still could be right in the end, a waste of #4 overall. Or I could be wrong, time will tell.

Fair enough, hopefully we take an offensive lineman if we hire Garrett, maybe Simmons isn’t worth the risk at this point