My goodness, I’m guessing he thought it was a pass play and he had man on the te. If he can’t take one look at Aaron Jones and diagnose that it’s a run, how is he employed in the nfl?
RE: RE: Why is the team putting out videos like this? Â
Williams isn't a pass rushing DE like Vernon or Josh Allen are.
People hype up Clowney and he had 3.5 sacks all year. But some feel comfortable paying him $20M?
I dont think too many people waste time hyping up clowney. Hes a good edge player, not great. Never been a big sack guy, so in that respect hes been a disappointment.
Is a very good player and IMO, the best d-lineman we have. That being said, the trade was ridiculous and the Giants would be foolish to sign him to huge money.
Than no clowney at all. Depends on who the other options are. If I’m a team that needs a DE and the only Fa of note is clowney, I could justify going for it. Everyone always bitches about the money but what other choice is there, sometimes? If you’re choosing between a young stud that is making pennies or the highly paid veteran, of course you’re going to take the cheaper player, but it isn’t always that easy. Sometimes it’s good to spend big, even too big, if it plugs a huge hole with star power. You can really fix things in a hurry, the risk is worth it.
Thing is the Giants have enough 3-4 DL. Just get linebackers. Get an edge guy and an inside guy. Get OL quality and LB quality this offseason. This is the NY Giants, were playing a 3-4, and we have one maybe two LBs here worth more than a wet shit. We have the young qb and Barkley. We’ve invested huge capital in two players that are directly impacted by the play of the OL, time to draft OL. Time to build a great OL. No fucking around.
Is fine. Solid physical group that can push the pocket. The pass rush will be fine if they get some friggin linebackers that can rush the passer. Golden and X should be the 3rd and 4th best passrushers here.
That gives him 1 sack over the course of a season.
That's three less sacks than Olivier Vernon had in 10 games. Josh Allen the rookie we passed on had 10.5. in 16 games.
Not the production needed to be signed for big money.
Hesu Christo! Everything is not about sacks. Williams disrupts plays and lets others cash in more easily. Watching how he sets his side lets you see that. He's not the problem, a power DL on the other side or a forceful ILB changes the game completely with Williams shutting his side down.
Might as well evaluate Darus Slayton on rushing yards
This
They can’t do that, it wouldn’t fit the Williams/Gettleman narrative
Which "narrative" would that be? That he traded TWO picks from a team that desperately needed them to get half of a year of a guy available in FA?
Sure, it's about the sacks, not the boneheaded maneuver that landed him here. The fact that he's not an impact player who's going to command a huge payday in FA *AND* cost two picks is what's up for debate, not the number of sacks he got. But by all means, you settle in with your "narrative" hunting.
Pretty funny how people say don't look to LW for sacks Â
are a great foundation for the DL. if we were able to land yannick to balance it out with the pass rush I think we are really looking at a dominant group. im not sure why everyone is so against that, even if it means paying LW 15 mil per yr. Who else will be worth spending the money on? I would much rather they over pay there rather then waste the couple exta bucks on guys like Stewart, Bethea, Omameh etc that contribute absolutely nothing
RE: Pretty funny how people say don't look to LW for sacks Â
So we're supposed to pay 10-13 a year for a player to plug a gap? That's what he should get big bucks for?
Yes. And he will get paid more than that. A player like LW has value, and I would have zero problem signing him as a FA, but trading 2 picks was a horrible use of resources. That is a move contenders make, not cellar dwellers.
You either accept the sunk cost of 3rd/5th rd picks or you drop (estimating) 12-14 mill/per (and bump that 5th to a 4th) for a guy who may end up costing you significant dead money.
He's a solid player, who knows, he might end up worth it. Im just dead-money shy after the past few years. I don't care who it is, I hear "free agent contract" and I just cringe.
He’s young. Sign him. No matter who you sign in tier 1, they are going to be paid a lot. If you don’t want to spend big, then concentrate on fill-in/situational players, imv
RE: Pretty funny how people say don't look to LW for sacks Â
So we're supposed to pay 10-13 a year for a player to plug a gap? That's what he should get big bucks for?
Do some of you guys know anything about football? "Plug a gap"?? You should watch the playoff games to see how important stopping the run has been for teams like SF and TENN. Clogging the middle has been a mainstay for lots of successful teams, including our own SB teams.
Let me guess, Williams "should get the big bucks" for sacks?? Reading this thread, it becomes blatantly obvious who knows what Williams role should be and who doesn't.
Controlling the LOS is a major goal of most teams. Minimizing that just makes one sound like a blithering idiot.
1) There was a trade market for LW. Someone was going to give the Jets draft picks for him during the season and signed or tagged him before he hit free agency. LW was NEVER GOING TO HIT FREE AGENCY. If you want him on your team, you give up picks. (See the Dee Ford transaction between KC and SF last season.)
2) The Giants have plenty of negotiating leverage. It's called a tag (whether that iis one of the two types of franchise tags or the transition tag is a tactical question). LW has every incentive to sign a long-term deal that is likely to include $40M+ of guaranteed cash vs playing our the 2020 season on a tag. The tag is difficult for the teams to manage only if they don't have a lot of cap room. The Giants have plenty. The statement that Gettleman has no leverage is simply FALSE.
3) The contract per year is likely to avg in the $17-18mm range. Your opinion may differ from the Giants, who surely knew what the market was when they made the trade. The Atlanta DT who just signed a big contract last season (Grady Jarrett) will serve as a comp and the starting point for negotiations. The 2020 cap hit will likely be much lower than that, although I'm interested in seeing if the Giants decide to front load the cap hit for LW given their cap situation.
4) My fearless prediction is that the 2020 FA market will be out of control with salaries escalating. Too many buyers; too few quality players. Most teams have oodles of cap space. I assume DG knows this and jumped on the chance to get a good young player like LW on a talent-poor squad.
RE: Stop valuating Williams on sacks, its not his role Â
Might as well evaluate Darus Slayton on rushing yards
You're missing the point (as usual). He's going to get paid like an elite DE who has pass-rushing skills. It's about resource/cap allocation, and Williams is very likely to represent a poor cap value from this point forward.
I'm not sure what's complicated about that other than the fact that the average fan is basically innumerate.
RE: RE: RE: I hated the trade, but LW is a good player, Â
So we're supposed to pay 10-13 a year for a player to plug a gap? That's what he should get big bucks for?
Do some of you guys know anything about football? "Plug a gap"?? You should watch the playoff games to see how important stopping the run has been for teams like SF and TENN. Clogging the middle has been a mainstay for lots of successful teams, including our own SB teams.
Let me guess, Williams "should get the big bucks" for sacks?? Reading this thread, it becomes blatantly obvious who knows what Williams role should be and who doesn't.
Controlling the LOS is a major goal of most teams. Minimizing that just makes one sound like a blithering idiot.
The cap is a finite resource, wouldn't you agree?
You want to take the indignant stance on it, be my guest. But if you're going to do that, put a number on it - you know LW's proper role so well, what do you think is the appropriate price tag for that sort of player?
Looking forward to you avoiding answering that question.
It's worth pointing out that currently of the top 4 2020 cap hits Â
for DLs, 3 of the 4 are for DTs (Cox, Donald, Dareus) and only is for a DE (Frank Clark). Team's financial allocations on the line seem to be drifting towards interior players.
I know that will change somewhat with free agency, but it's worth being aware of.
if you are going to float shit like this out there, talking about his half sack effort is pretty damn hypocritical:
Quote:
I'm not sure what's complicated about that other than the fact that the average fan is basically innumerate.
Hard to understand slamming other fans when you are looking at sack totals. I mean Lorenzo Carter had 4.5 sacks so he must be world's better than Williams, right??
1) There was a trade market for LW. Someone was going to give the Jets draft picks for him during the season and signed or tagged him before he hit free agency. LW was NEVER GOING TO HIT FREE AGENCY. If you want him on your team, you give up picks. (See the Dee Ford transaction between KC and SF last season.)
Sure, but the question is, was LW worth that allocation of resources? He's a good player, but he's not Dee Ford.
See Jarrett as a comp. The $17-18M range is likely.
He's not getting the $20+M that top "pass rushing" DE's will demand.
And you believe that $17-18M is an appropriate cap number for LW?
I agree that's where his contract is headed. But I see that as overpaid for his role, and I get the sense that you might feel like it's in line with his true value.
I do take back what I said about you avoiding answering my question since you had obviously posted this by the time I even said that - my apologies.
if you are going to float shit like this out there, talking about his half sack effort is pretty damn hypocritical:
Quote:
I'm not sure what's complicated about that other than the fact that the average fan is basically innumerate.
Hard to understand slamming other fans when you are looking at sack totals. I mean Lorenzo Carter had 4.5 sacks so he must be world's better than Williams, right??
No, but what's Carter's cap number? And how many draft picks did we trade to acquire him for 8 games before he became a free agent?
You're too smart of a poster to allow yourself to look like a fool for defending this trade, but go for it.
I would avoid labelling trade supporters "fools." The debate comes down to a pretty complex issue of the value of a 3-4 DE in that scheme. I think that's something reasonable people can disagree on.
but some of you guys have hammered this home as a fireable offense and have really blown it out of proportion.
You know where it becomes a terrible trade? If Williams walks. If he's here and the Giants build a top line, that trade will look a lot differently.
I get the point of view that a non-contending team shouldn't give up draft picks for a rental, but cosmic's post above outlines that Williams was unlikely to hit the open market - what if that scenario was true?
I want the Giants to have as many good players as possible, and Williams (if he plays like he did for us) is going to make the team better.
That people think fall just short of being a firable offense.
Well add them all up and you get 9 wins in two years, which I guess also isn’t also a firable offense.
You guys make it sound like he inherited a consistent contender and watched as Rome burned.
You can look at a lot of bad teams and question moves made. Even call them fireable offenses. I'm sure making McKinnon one of the highest paid RB's was a good move by Lynch, right? Having the most cap dollars assigned to the RB position in a passing league? Signing Sherman who many thought was declining?
Meanwhile, many moves the Browns made last season were applauded.
You know who fired their GM for "fireable offenses"? Cleveland. And they aren't any better off now and they will repeat the cycle over again.
I really don't know if Gettleman will be successful here, but many of you are certain he won't.
The "fireable offense" statements are always sensational Â
if they had more than one guy that could rush from the edge and collapse the pocket, thus making the QB step up and avoid the rush..ya know...like how most "elite" DT get sacks in the NFL.
if they had more than one guy that could rush from the edge and collapse the pocket, thus making the QB step up and avoid the rush..ya know...like how most "elite" DT get sacks in the NFL.
Maybe, and just maybe some other lineman's sack total would double in that same environment, but he only commands 1/3 of the price of LW...
if they had more than one guy that could rush from the edge and collapse the pocket, thus making the QB step up and avoid the rush..ya know...like how most "elite" DT get sacks in the NFL.
Maybe, and just maybe some other lineman's sack total would double in that same environment, but he only commands 1/3 of the price of LW...
I hear you on that - however - that same guy is also going to have to be as stout against the run as LW...a skill at which I would argue LW is elite...all for 1/3 of the price.
but if that's the market rate for a player of his caliber, that's what you have to pay. You can't just be looking at stats, you have to see his overall impact on defense.
I trust Gettleman when it comes to Defensive Tackles -- he knows them and places a high value on them
Tomlinson, Williams and Lawrence are a major trio to have to deal with on the Dline -- and if they had some horses behind them the Defense would start looking like a terrorist organization to opposing teams
I trust Gettleman when it comes to Defensive Tackles -- he knows them and places a high value on them
Tomlinson, Williams and Lawrence are a major trio to have to deal with on the Dline -- and if they had some horses behind them the Defense would start looking like a terrorist organization to opposing teams
That's the point that I don't know why others aren't seeing it. Gettleman has been trying to build the lines. He's failed thus far on the OL, but the DL is coming along really well. And yet in making that unit one of the best on the team, he still takes crap for it. If the Giants have an elite DL and pay one of those guys $18M a year, that isn't really expensive
The pass rush (if we're counting the edge guys as the DL) is still poor. And before we give the DL credit in the run game, we may want to consider that Dallas and Philly did whatever they wanted in the run game. In the second Philly game the Eagles had a MASH unit, but that didn't stop Boston Scott from looking like LaDainian Tomlinson.
And with regards to Williams, if they're (foolishly) paying him $18M is that really wise considering that:
1. he isn't an elite player; and
2. we'd still be in need of an edge rusher, which is typically more expensive
Trading for Williams was inexplicable. Overpaying him would only compound the error.
All he had to do is use a first round pick, acquired by trading away one of our most talented players, and the trade away some more picks to have the chance to pay another guy 18 mil a year.
Maybe if he trades away Jones and Saquon, he will be able to fix the back end.
The pass rush (if we're counting the edge guys as the DL) is still poor. And before we give the DL credit in the run game, we may want to consider that Dallas and Philly did whatever they wanted in the run game. In the second Philly game the Eagles had a MASH unit, but that didn't stop Boston Scott from looking like LaDainian Tomlinson.
And with regards to Williams, if they're (foolishly) paying him $18M is that really wise considering that:
1. he isn't an elite player; and
2. we'd still be in need of an edge rusher, which is typically more expensive
Trading for Williams was inexplicable. Overpaying him would only compound the error.
How can you say a 25 year old player isn’t elite? Barrett wasn’t elite last year either. 2. We can afford it.
In regards to the Eagles and cowboys doing whatever they wanted, we ran an aggressive 1 gap scheme. That means our 3 do accounted for three gaps. A,a,b,b,c,c,and d for 1 tight end. That’s 7 gaps my brother, 3 d lineman cannot cover them all. Paying our d line is about shortening the space of those other 4 gaps making it easier for them to be filled, creating the foundation of a dominant defense. That is the purpose.
but its not like we aren't paying top dollar for our assets in that area.
Tomlinson (drafted by Reese in 2nd round by the way not DG); Lawrence who was a 1st round pick; and Williams who DG is about to break the bank on after also giving draft picks. That is a lot of attention for a team that still needs to find someway to get the QB on the ground more often.
So I am not sure Gettleman is exceeding any expectations of roster building with this unit thus far, do you?
That is the kind of move you make when you are closer to competing. I like the big cat. I think he has exceptional physical talent that has yet to be tapped correctly. I do see potential. I think Williams played well for us.
If it goes past 13 million/per we should let him walk. I think we can get someone almost as good for 4-5 million/year with similar production that was not a high 1st round draft pick. !7 million is paying him for his draft position rather than his production.
I do like the player though. Not trash, nowhere close.
RE: I think everybody wants a stout Defensive Line Â
but its not like we aren't paying top dollar for our assets in that area.
Tomlinson (drafted by Reese in 2nd round by the way not DG); Lawrence who was a 1st round pick; and Williams who DG is about to break the bank on after also giving draft picks. That is a lot of attention for a team that still needs to find someway to get the QB on the ground more often.
So I am not sure Gettleman is exceeding any expectations of roster building with this unit thus far, do you?
I mean everyone has different philosophies on how to build a team. After Denver won the Super Bowl they took a more analytical approach, pay the olb and the cb’s, let the interior dL and ilb’s walk. They lost Malik Jackson and Danny trevathan and literally that defense just fell apart game by game. Resetting the line of scrimmage isn’t analytical, there are no stats for it(yet) but it is absolutely important.
He’s young. Sign him. No matter who you sign in tier 1, they are going to be paid a lot. If you don’t want to spend big, then concentrate on fill-in/situational players, imv
but its not like we aren't paying top dollar for our assets in that area.
Tomlinson (drafted by Reese in 2nd round by the way not DG); Lawrence who was a 1st round pick; and Williams who DG is about to break the bank on after also giving draft picks. That is a lot of attention for a team that still needs to find someway to get the QB on the ground more often.
So I am not sure Gettleman is exceeding any expectations of roster building with this unit thus far, do you?
I mean everyone has different philosophies on how to build a team. After Denver won the Super Bowl they took a more analytical approach, pay the olb and the cb’s, let the interior dL and ilb’s walk. They lost Malik Jackson and Danny trevathan and literally that defense just fell apart game by game. Resetting the line of scrimmage isn’t analytical, there are no stats for it(yet) but it is absolutely important.
This isn't philosophical nor really analytical. We all watch the games, we see that the run defense got better in some of the games in the second half of the year, we see LW holding his own if not more. No question.
My comments were centered around the amount of value DG already placed on grabbing LW, the investment already on that line, and the most important fact that the Defense as a whole is awful.
Need to restructure the defensive scheme, players, and think thru future investment requirements on pass rushers, LBs and Safeties.
And breaking the bank on LW and using draft collateral to precipitate the process was poorly thought out by a GM who seemingly executes this rebuild on the fly versus a cohesive plan...
Is overpaying giving someone what the market will bear?
Williams is a first round level talent. He was picked up going into his prime contract years for a 3 this year and a 4 next year if he signs.
The Giants - if they sign him with have added a 1, a 2, and a 1, and 4 this year, and the second 1 is of a proven value making the Defensive line quite formidable.
I would argue that it is desirable to pay what the market will bear to keep those assets, bolstering the defense.
I think it is a red herring to argue that this is overpaying.
People act like we are signing a career journeyman to be paid at the very top of his position. Just look at the number of posters who mock his sack totals. To many, not getting sacks is indicative that he isn't making an impact.
If you can get a guy at market value who can anchor a position group, you do it. Just like if solder was a stud, he'd be worth the $$$
People act like we are signing a career journeyman to be paid at the very top of his position. Just look at the number of posters who mock his sack totals. To many, not getting sacks is indicative that he isn't making an impact.
If you can get a guy at market value who can anchor a position group, you do it. Just like if solder was a stud, he'd be worth the $$$
Spotrac.com puts his market value at $8.2 million per year. I'd be willing to go ten or eleven million, maybe even twelve. Anything more is insane, and yet DG will probably do it to save face. Just look at the video. It's PR spin, pure and simple.
I dispute the whole idea that spending is fungible across positions Â
You can't shift cap capacity from one player to another one at a different priority position just like that. You want an edge rusher at a talent level similar to Williams? Good luck finding one and, if there is one available by lucky chance, you will be in for a bidding war with the auction winner likely paying too much.
Most likely what happens is that, if Williams leaves, you are left paying a lot of money to a lesser player. One like Nate Solder.
The whole conceptual basis for this debate is flawed.
That sounds a lot like, "Well, adding Jabrill Pepers is just like getting another 1st Round pick!"
Did he play like he was a 1st Round pick? Nope. Not even close to it (just like his first two years in the league).
I also keep hearing stuff like, "LW is better than anyone we could draft #68." That's as may be (as the Limeys say). But the top of the 3rd Round is where you can find a lot of guys who may not be superstars, but who could fill vital roles on your team, especially at positions that are normally devalued in the draft (except for the aforementioned superstars). Guards and Centers, Tight Ends, Safeties, Running Backs.
So, not only are we going to spend a fortune to keep Williams, but we've already spent draft capital on him. That blows.
if they had more than one guy that could rush from the edge and collapse the pocket, thus making the QB step up and avoid the rush..ya know...like how most "elite" DT get sacks in the NFL.
as a whole is awful, so you shouldn't try to retain good players??
That's some great logic.
If that is really your comment then we should just skip going into logic. We can put aside whatever "great logic" is as I would be satisfied if this Front Office could just shoot for plain ol' average logic...
of the perception surrounding Peppers was due to his play or the players around him??
Peppers was playing pretty damn well when he got injured. He was making impact plays and was stout against the run. Outside of the INT returned for a TD, he also had a tackle for loss in 5 of his last 7 games and forced 3 fumbles.
He played better than Collins did the year prior.
He gets lumped in with the overall D performance and that isn't fair.
That's what the player acquisition market is these days. Trade and sign. Look at the big Dee Ford and Frank Clark transactions last spring.
I'd take Dee Ford or Frank Clark over Leonard Williams any day and twice on Sundays. They had the production to justify it. They're both impact players, difference-makers. Williams is not, but the odds are we're going to pay him like one.
I don't have a problem with the concept. I have a problem with the player...and with the GM.
is that people want to compare Williams stats to them in sacks. Hell, people want to compare Williams stats to 4-3 DE's for some reason. Maybe it is just ignorance, but it seems like it is done on every thread.
Williams is not a DE in a 4-3. He's basically a DL guy.
The Giants have plenty of negotiating leverage. It's called a tag (whether that iis one of the two types of franchise tags or the transition tag is a tactical question). LW has every incentive to sign a long-term deal that is likely to include $40M+ of guaranteed cash vs playing our the 2020 season on a tag. The tag is difficult for the teams to manage only if they don't have a lot of cap room. The Giants have plenty. The statement that Gettleman has no leverage is simply FALSE.
The transitional tag is not leverage. If LW gets an offer and we don't match it, there is NO compensation for the lost. So just toss that out.
If you think LW is worth the projected $18M FT for an average/average plus DT, then I guess the Giants do have leverage.
I think DTs are fairly rich in supply and you shouldn't break the bank for that position unless you have a Donald or Cox type. Players who truly impact the pass and the run. LW is not that.
And I'm not sure about this force multiplier impact some suggest LW has. The Jets D didn't miss a beat when he left. And while some cite this material impact he had for us statistically stopping the run, the teams we played down the stretch won't be confused with the '95 Nebraska Cornhuskers. For what we currently have on the roster at DT, I see LW has nothing more than a redundancy.
Just another uninspiring move to add to the list of uninspiring moves by Resume...
When I start disagreeing with FMiC and agreeing with Game of Terps... Â
You know what Terps -- that's a bunch of bull -- it's totally relevant, and WIlliams is also a first round talent. You are only saying it's irrelevant because you have nothing to really refute here. Might as well just say the facts aren't relevant to prove your point.
of the perception surrounding Peppers was due to his play or the players around him??
Peppers was playing pretty damn well when he got injured. He was making impact plays and was stout against the run. Outside of the INT returned for a TD, he also had a tackle for loss in 5 of his last 7 games and forced 3 fumbles.
He played better than Collins did the year prior.
He gets lumped in with the overall D performance and that isn't fair.
The defense as a whole needs to be greater than the sum of the parts. This defense has plenty of costly parts that need to show far more than they do.
Until that happens lets hold off on saying guys like Peppers are being unfairly viewed...
of the perception surrounding Peppers was due to his play or the players around him??
Peppers was playing pretty damn well when he got injured. He was making impact plays and was stout against the run. Outside of the INT returned for a TD, he also had a tackle for loss in 5 of his last 7 games and forced 3 fumbles.
He played better than Collins did the year prior.
He gets lumped in with the overall D performance and that isn't fair.
I have a feeling that if the D ever gets better, Peppers will be exposed for what he is, a liability.
Before he got hurt he was the least easy target, but his is not a sound , disciplined player. And no where near the physical run stopper Collins was for us.
RE: RE: Where Williams was drafted is irrelevant Â
You know what Terps -- that's a bunch of bull -- it's totally relevant, and WIlliams is also a first round talent. You are only saying it's irrelevant because you have nothing to really refute here. Might as well just say the facts aren't relevant to prove your point.
I pointed out facts above - Williams didn't make much difference against Dallas or a crippled Philly team.
The Giants defense was a joke this season. I can't imagine paying anyone on it a premium free agent contract.
I come back to this: A money for B players is bad business.
i've said it 1m times but tagging Williams is 100% the best outcome Â
$17m for 1 year, highly motivated, says he wants to stay here, see how he fits in the new D before committing big $. That preserves all options.
a) if he's a great fit they can sign him long term.
b) if he's not a great fit they trade him or just let him walk and get a comp pick.
If he's willing to sign a reasonable extension around what Jarrett got right now bc he wants to be here, I'd consider that (though obviously Judge/Graham's opinions would weigh in heavily as well). LW doesn't really have any options if the Giants tag him.
The defense as a whole needs to be greater than the sum of the parts. This defense has plenty of costly parts that need to show far more than they do.
Until that happens lets hold off on saying guys like Peppers are being unfairly viewed...
Our defense is one of the lowest cap allocations in the NFL. 31st. Where are these costly parts? Ogletree and who??
I'd turn it around and say let's hold off on calling players disappointing until we actually are allocating more to that side of the ball, but hey - that might mean putting a pitchfork away for a period of time.
how about we hold off calling them dissapointing Â
as to the draft collateral used as well and the soon to be price tag for Mr. Williams. Clearly young drafted guys should be allotted time in the NFL to get it together. But at some point Christmas is over and business is business...
This debate goes round and round. But at least you can smile at these.
It's just football, man. For me, anyway. I can disagree, but I try not to be too disagreeable. Doesn't always work, but I try. One of the positive takeaways in the aftermath of having a heart attack four years ago. I've lightened up considerably, physically and mentally.
But it's a good thing we're not allowed to discuss politics on the site, lol.
Can pay for 5-6 players on the secondary free agent market. I think that's where we need to be active - signings like Golden and Remmers, both of which made sense - to supplement the players we draft.
The defense as a whole needs to be greater than the sum of the parts. This defense has plenty of costly parts that need to show far more than they do.
Until that happens lets hold off on saying guys like Peppers are being unfairly viewed...
Our defense is one of the lowest cap allocations in the NFL. 31st. Where are these costly parts? Ogletree and who??
I'd turn it around and say let's hold off on calling players disappointing until we actually are allocating more to that side of the ball, but hey - that might mean putting a pitchfork away for a period of time.
You are a reasonable guy. 3-13 5-11 4-12 Pitchforks are not going away until we win some games. Criticism are legitimate. People get personal and go over the top and you crush them for it, fair enough.
RE: RE: Where Williams was drafted is irrelevant Â
You know what Terps -- that's a bunch of bull -- it's totally relevant, and WIlliams is also a first round talent. You are only saying it's irrelevant because you have nothing to really refute here. Might as well just say the facts aren't relevant to prove your point.
Draft position is only relevant for the salary paid for the first contract.
After that, it means absolutely nothing for future contract setting.
If it meant something, why did the Jets only get a 3rd and 5th round pick?
Can pay for 5-6 players on the secondary free agent market. I think that's where we need to be active - signings like Golden and Remmers, both of which made sense - to supplement the players we draft.
At the point, $15M would be a bargain based on where this could go...
Can pay for 5-6 players on the secondary free agent market. I think that's where we need to be active - signings like Golden and Remmers, both of which made sense - to supplement the players we draft.
That is a great way to look at it. We can get a bunch of second level players so we can continue to scream at the TVs on Sunday afternoons.
But then again, maybe this coaching staff when assembled will be able to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear or 6.
I pointed out facts above - Williams didn't make much difference against Dallas or a crippled Philly team.
The Giants defense was a joke this season. I can't imagine paying anyone on it a premium free agent contract.
I come back to this: A money for B players is bad business.
Ok -- let's look at the facts: the defense sucked this year because our rookie CBs got targeted, and gave up a ton of plays this year at both critical and non-critical junctures. Also our LB corps was mostly a joke. The Defensive line was the strong point of the defense, and it improved when Williams came on board. For the most part, it could not be run on and it got excellent penetration.
It's disingenuous to say Williams had no impact in the Dallas or Philly game when he had excellent impact in both games. You want to look at the problems in those games - you are reaching when say WIlliams had no impact.
Can pay for 5-6 players on the secondary free agent market. I think that's where we need to be active - signings like Golden and Remmers, both of which made sense - to supplement the players we draft.
That is a great way to look at it. We can get a bunch of second level players so we can continue to scream at the TVs on Sunday afternoons.
But then again, maybe this coaching staff when assembled will be able to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear or 6.
Roster depth and cap fluidity are keys to long term sustained success. Make them a matter of policy and over time the roster should improve AND be easily modifiable to the needs of a given season.
Getting married to overpriced players like Williams figured to be does the opposite. We should have learned that with Vernon and Jenkins, but it appears what's past is prologue.
said they learned from 2016 that they don't want to overdo it on big $ free agents (which should be music to everyone's ears).
Between Gettleman saying he wants to bring $20m into the regular season and Mara's comments, I think we are looking at a bunch of lower/mid level FA signings with experience in the Patriots way of doing things like Van Noy, Logan Ryan, etc.
I think that would be a very prudent way to go about adding depth and I don't think tagging Williams is at all averse to that. I'd much rather tag Williams and let Golden go, and hopefully get a good comp pick for him if someone overpays.
RE: RE: RE: The $15-$18M Williams figured to get Â
Roster depth and cap fluidity are keys to long term sustained success. Make them a matter of policy and over time the roster should improve AND be easily modifiable to the needs of a given season.
Getting married to overpriced players like Williams figured to be does the opposite. We should have learned that with Vernon and Jenkins, but it appears what's past is prologue.
Again -- you are using that word overpriced without defining it -- I have argued that the market sets the price -- you have conveniently ignored that in context. Also your depth and fluidity speech is an oversimplification of roster building. If this were true, why would Belichick sign free Agents (which he does), and he is hailed a genius.
You have to use all the tools in the tool bag to build a roster. That's what all the great do. And if you have a conviction you go with it. There is no one set way to build a roster.
The Giants are in the process of building depth. Two drafts, and one to come is insufficient to build adequate depth with. Too many weak free agents is also not going to supply you with sufficient talent. If you are advocating bringing in multiple players like Remmers I think that's incredibly weak and short-sighted. And to use you analysis above Remmers did not help the Giants at all last season. Davis was also wildly undisciplined giving up penalties at very inopportune times during games. THese are hardly model talents to build a team with - they are only crap shoots.
If there is any argument to be made it is that you cannot rely on only roster building via Free Agency -- that doesn't mean you shouldn't bring in FAs that will help the team.
The fact is that opposed to Remmers and Golden --- Williams was a stabilizing influence on the team playing very consistently in the Giants games he played in. You certainly cannot say that about either Remmers or Golden.
...according to those that complain about Williams and Williams-like situations, there is also no reason why a great DC would want to come here and coach this motley crew.
When solid talent is brought in, it's too much $ or draft capital.
When more affordable guys are brought in, it's a waste...they're bums.
Well which is it fellers, you want we should freeze, or get down on the ground?
I guess, y'all pretty much gahdamned perfect ain't cha?!
I couldn’t care less what LW gets in free agency, but this was a stupid trade. I’m still waiting for the first reasonable and intelligent argument for trading draft picks for a free agent on a team with zero chance to make the playoffs. There has been no good explanation for this trade because none exist.
Players with a skill set like Williams are readily available. There’s multiple in every draft, spending two picks and $18 million is a poor allocation of resources. He’s never been elite.
I couldn’t care less what LW gets in free agency, but this was a stupid trade. I’m still waiting for the first reasonable and intelligent argument for trading draft picks for a free agent on a team with zero chance to make the playoffs. There has been no good explanation for this trade because none exist.
The juice was worth the squeeze? Moronic.
Some people find it reasonable to give up a 3rd and a 5th, despite Mara claiming we need to build through the draft, to have the right to franchise a player who was once a first round draft choice and has produced modest stats.
RE: RE: RE: Williams had a stabilizing influence? Â
That's funny, because I saw a defense that surrendered 30+ points in 5 of the 8 games he played. I didn't see anything stabilized.
Yes exactly -- because Remmers was a turnstyle and Golden was giving up penalties -- so let's get some more of those guys to help build the roster
Is the best selling point for giving LW a big contract "hey, at least he doesn't suck like Remmers or most of DG's FA acquisitions"?
The selling point is the strengths and weaknesses of the player, realize that he wasn’t drafted 6th overall because of his sack numbers at USC. I see him and I see a 6’5 dude that easily extends his long arms.
I see football talent, and at year 5 he’s still pretty raw. I’d rather have him then lose him if we’re actually going to contend for a Super Bowl in the near future. You let him walk because of money in a year where we can easily have 95 mil in cap space and I can’t foresee us contending any time soon.
I’m sorry, we are in Daniel Jones rookie season, it’s full speed ahead in terms of talent acquisition, we don’t need rookies, we need to plug gaps in free agency and continue to build through the draft. If we lose Leonard Williams and overpay a C player, or settle for BJ Hill, I’ll know we are a lost franchise.
I couldn’t care less what LW gets in free agency, but this was a stupid trade. I’m still waiting for the first reasonable and intelligent argument for trading draft picks for a free agent on a team with zero chance to make the playoffs. There has been no good explanation for this trade because none exist.
The juice was worth the squeeze? Moronic.
cosmic and fmic gave you the juice explanations above.
The $15-$18M Williams figured to get
Go Terps : 4:06 pm : link : reply
Can pay for 5-6 players on the secondary free agent market. I think that's where we need to be active - signings like Golden and Remmers, both of which made sense - to supplement the players we draft.
I get having strong drafts to go on the cheap for players. What exactly do you think you're going get for $3M per year? And let's say a guy produces, like Golden. Then what, you're looking at $10M.
I know you want 53 guys on a rookie contract in your ideal way to build a winner, but stocking a team with a bunch of second contract guys getting $3M is laughable. You'll get a DT with 0.5 sacks who sucks against the run!
We are still hearing about some of the failed players DG signed who basically amounted to 1 year cap hits. That's par for the course when trying to roster fill with guys making peanuts. Look at how GB improved their D this year. Look at signings KC made to fill the D. In FA you are going to have to pay some for actual quality.
But then again - I'm seeing a lot of posts acting as if williams is pedestrian and didn't impact things, so I'm not sure I really trust takes on cap management either.
FMiC, the question isn't whether or not Williams is pedestrian. Â
for assets based on supply and demand, albeit not a truly efficient market.
And, of course, the fact that a few drunken sailor-GMs that are desperate in certain years at certain positions (example: DG and Solder) adjust the "market" even moreso, mostly up.
LW is going to be targeted by at least one of the drunken sailors and its going to cause Gettleman to have to up the ante because he committed himself to this deal months ago. Do you really believe DG folds here?
But again, keep hoping this ends well for the NY Giants because that's akin to how the GM runs this franchise...
RE: Opposing story would be free agency results in bidding up Â
for assets based on supply and demand, albeit not a truly efficient market.
And, of course, the fact that a few drunken sailor-GMs that are desperate in certain years at certain positions (example: DG and Solder) adjust the "market" even moreso, mostly up.
LW is going to be targeted by at least one of the drunken sailors and its going to cause Gettleman to have to up the ante because he committed himself to this deal months ago. Do you really believe DG folds here?
But again, keep hoping this ends well for the NY Giants because that's akin to how the GM runs this franchise...
He was paid 14 mil this year, he was worth that. If his cap hit is 17 mil next year, I’m confident he will be worth that as well. No hope involved. When you have Ogletree and mayo putting out the film they did, you’re not going to able to see the impact Williams made clearly. That doesn’t mean Williams didn’t play well. Elite players have 20mil+ cap hits, Leonard isn’t getting paid as an elite player, he’s getting paid like a 25 year old very good could be great player.
the marker we are using for market pay for a very good but not great DT is rear view mirror.
The actual market rate we need to use as a comp is the post 2020 FA bonanza ...because the rate in 2021 and beyond is only higher. Hence...the real jarring news will be what it takes to keep a DTomlinson in a post 2020 market.
They have a little slack given DJ's first contract and its usually better to improve a differential strength of the team ( asymmetric major unit advantages create crimps in the other teams abilities) than overspend to bring a unit up to average ( and the center of the D is a key to capturing positive multiplier effects) but man they have no LBs and OL and unconvincing DBs. Overwhelming number of needs
The structure of the contract may be more important than the initial facing numbers.
The misleading sack numbers of the 2020 free agents
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UNDERVALUED
DI Leonard Williams, New York Giants
No player had a bigger deference between his pressure rate rank and sack rate rank than Williams, who split the year between the Giants and the New York Jets prior to his trade. Among 87 interior defenders with 200 or more pass-rushing snaps, Williams ranked 13th in pressure rate at 11.3% but his one sack in 424 pass-rushing snaps put him near the bottom of the list in sack rate. On the other hand, Williams led the position with 19 quarterback hits. A few fractions of a second faster on several of those plays and that sack total looks a whole lot more respectable.
Considering the draft capital that the Giants gave up acquiring Williams, it seems likely that they’ll retain him moving forward. He’s always been a better run defender than a pass-rusher, but he’s certainly better in the passing game than the one sack he was able to produce in 2019. Now the Giants just need to figure out how to balance all the young talent they have at interior defensive line if they re-sign Williams.
That's three less sacks than Olivier Vernon had in 10 games. Josh Allen the rookie we passed on had 10.5. in 16 games.
Not the production needed to be signed for big money.
People hype up Clowney and he had 3.5 sacks all year. But some feel comfortable paying him $20M?
My goodness, I’m guessing he thought it was a pass play and he had man on the te. If he can’t take one look at Aaron Jones and diagnose that it’s a run, how is he employed in the nfl?
Fucking insane.
People hype up Clowney and he had 3.5 sacks all year. But some feel comfortable paying him $20M?
People hype up Clowney and he had 3.5 sacks all year. But some feel comfortable paying him $20M?
I don't.
Give him a 13 million dollar contract and tell him thank you for your contribution.
You absolutely nailed it.
The LW PR Campaign is underway.
(Remember how the Giants would bring Strahan inside in certain situations). The Giants a true complimentary DE (like OSI was back then).
The team needs at least two more good defensive lineman to be able to have a good rotation, to avoid being gassed late in the game.
This
Give him a 13 million dollar contract and tell him thank you for your contribution.
Agreed
Give him a 13 million dollar contract and tell him thank you for your contribution.
I would make an attempt to re-sign him at a reasonable FA deal. If some sucker wants to pay a run-stuffing 3-4 DE $10M+/year, let them.
That's three less sacks than Olivier Vernon had in 10 games. Josh Allen the rookie we passed on had 10.5. in 16 games.
Not the production needed to be signed for big money.
I wanted Allen, but it’s worth noting JAX was absolutely dogshit vs the run. BBI’s FA fav Yannick was responsible for that too.
That's three less sacks than Olivier Vernon had in 10 games. Josh Allen the rookie we passed on had 10.5. in 16 games.
Not the production needed to be signed for big money.
Williams isn’t known for sacks from everything Ive read. He’s more of a run stuffer and pressure causer.
Seriously some “fans” are clueless and clearly didn’t watch games.
Well said
Thing is the Giants have enough 3-4 DL. Just get linebackers. Get an edge guy and an inside guy. Get OL quality and LB quality this offseason. This is the NY Giants, were playing a 3-4, and we have one maybe two LBs here worth more than a wet shit. We have the young qb and Barkley. We’ve invested huge capital in two players that are directly impacted by the play of the OL, time to draft OL. Time to build a great OL. No fucking around.
That's three less sacks than Olivier Vernon had in 10 games. Josh Allen the rookie we passed on had 10.5. in 16 games.
Not the production needed to be signed for big money.
Hesu Christo! Everything is not about sacks. Williams disrupts plays and lets others cash in more easily. Watching how he sets his side lets you see that. He's not the problem, a power DL on the other side or a forceful ILB changes the game completely with Williams shutting his side down.
Williams will name his price. DG can't let him go... he'll look dumber than he already does on this deal.
Was always told if your gonna make a mistake, go all the way.
That was hilariously bad
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watch Alec Ogletree...
Was always told if your gonna make a mistake, go all the way.
That was hilariously bad
Its like he is trying to use The Force to diagnose plays...
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In comment 14777626 Jimmy Googs said:
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watch Alec Ogletree...
Was always told if your gonna make a mistake, go all the way.
That was hilariously bad
Its like he is trying to use The Force to diagnose plays...
It’s even funnier when they keep rewinding fast and it’s clear if Williams doesn’t make the tackle then Jones rips off a huge gain
Great question. The shit show resumes.
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and anyone thinking he will sign for $15 mill or less is crazy. I wouldn’t want to pay any more than that, but I’m pretty sure DG will.
Williams will name his price. DG can't let him go... he'll look dumber than he already does on this deal.
Then LW will revert to his former unimpressive play, he was just playing for his contract this year.
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Why is the team putting out videos like this?
Great question. The shit show resumes.
Calm down. You don't think another team would have watched his game film before signing him to a big contract?
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Might as well evaluate Darus Slayton on rushing yards
This
They can’t do that, it wouldn’t fit the Williams/Gettleman narrative
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In comment 14777665 PatersonPlank said:
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Might as well evaluate Darus Slayton on rushing yards
This
They can’t do that, it wouldn’t fit the Williams/Gettleman narrative
Which "narrative" would that be? That he traded TWO picks from a team that desperately needed them to get half of a year of a guy available in FA?
Sure, it's about the sacks, not the boneheaded maneuver that landed him here. The fact that he's not an impact player who's going to command a huge payday in FA *AND* cost two picks is what's up for debate, not the number of sacks he got. But by all means, you settle in with your "narrative" hunting.
No idea why he can't seal the deal.
Maybe with more talent around him he'll be better.
Regardless, they are re-signing him.
Yes. And he will get paid more than that. A player like LW has value, and I would have zero problem signing him as a FA, but trading 2 picks was a horrible use of resources. That is a move contenders make, not cellar dwellers.
the beep beep beep you hear is a brinks truck backing into Williams' driveway
He's a solid player, who knows, he might end up worth it. Im just dead-money shy after the past few years. I don't care who it is, I hear "free agent contract" and I just cringe.
Do some of you guys know anything about football? "Plug a gap"?? You should watch the playoff games to see how important stopping the run has been for teams like SF and TENN. Clogging the middle has been a mainstay for lots of successful teams, including our own SB teams.
Let me guess, Williams "should get the big bucks" for sacks?? Reading this thread, it becomes blatantly obvious who knows what Williams role should be and who doesn't.
Controlling the LOS is a major goal of most teams. Minimizing that just makes one sound like a blithering idiot.
Give him a 13 million dollar contract and tell him thank you for your contribution.
He just made $14M this past season. You think he's taking a pay cut with $1.5B of aggregate cap room available leaguewide this offseason?
Not happening. His price tag is going to start at around $16M AAV, probably ends up with something approaching $18M or more.
2) The Giants have plenty of negotiating leverage. It's called a tag (whether that iis one of the two types of franchise tags or the transition tag is a tactical question). LW has every incentive to sign a long-term deal that is likely to include $40M+ of guaranteed cash vs playing our the 2020 season on a tag. The tag is difficult for the teams to manage only if they don't have a lot of cap room. The Giants have plenty. The statement that Gettleman has no leverage is simply FALSE.
3) The contract per year is likely to avg in the $17-18mm range. Your opinion may differ from the Giants, who surely knew what the market was when they made the trade. The Atlanta DT who just signed a big contract last season (Grady Jarrett) will serve as a comp and the starting point for negotiations. The 2020 cap hit will likely be much lower than that, although I'm interested in seeing if the Giants decide to front load the cap hit for LW given their cap situation.
4) My fearless prediction is that the 2020 FA market will be out of control with salaries escalating. Too many buyers; too few quality players. Most teams have oodles of cap space. I assume DG knows this and jumped on the chance to get a good young player like LW on a talent-poor squad.
You're missing the point (as usual). He's going to get paid like an elite DE who has pass-rushing skills. It's about resource/cap allocation, and Williams is very likely to represent a poor cap value from this point forward.
I'm not sure what's complicated about that other than the fact that the average fan is basically innumerate.
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In comment 14777754 Section331 said:
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and anyone thinking he will sign for $15 mill or less is crazy. I wouldn’t want to pay any more than that, but I’m pretty sure DG will.
Williams will name his price. DG can't let him go... he'll look dumber than he already does on this deal.
Then LW will revert to his former unimpressive play, he was just playing for his contract this year.
His half sack was his contract year effort?
See Jarrett as a comp. The $17-18M range is likely.
He's not getting the $20+M that top "pass rushing" DE's will demand.
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So we're supposed to pay 10-13 a year for a player to plug a gap? That's what he should get big bucks for?
Do some of you guys know anything about football? "Plug a gap"?? You should watch the playoff games to see how important stopping the run has been for teams like SF and TENN. Clogging the middle has been a mainstay for lots of successful teams, including our own SB teams.
Let me guess, Williams "should get the big bucks" for sacks?? Reading this thread, it becomes blatantly obvious who knows what Williams role should be and who doesn't.
Controlling the LOS is a major goal of most teams. Minimizing that just makes one sound like a blithering idiot.
The cap is a finite resource, wouldn't you agree?
You want to take the indignant stance on it, be my guest. But if you're going to do that, put a number on it - you know LW's proper role so well, what do you think is the appropriate price tag for that sort of player?
Looking forward to you avoiding answering that question.
I know that will change somewhat with free agency, but it's worth being aware of.
Hard to understand slamming other fans when you are looking at sack totals. I mean Lorenzo Carter had 4.5 sacks so he must be world's better than Williams, right??
Sure, but the question is, was LW worth that allocation of resources? He's a good player, but he's not Dee Ford.
See Jarrett as a comp. The $17-18M range is likely.
He's not getting the $20+M that top "pass rushing" DE's will demand.
And you believe that $17-18M is an appropriate cap number for LW?
I agree that's where his contract is headed. But I see that as overpaid for his role, and I get the sense that you might feel like it's in line with his true value.
I do take back what I said about you avoiding answering my question since you had obviously posted this by the time I even said that - my apologies.
Posted after I already answered the question.
Want to talk sack totals again?
I do think that's a fair value if he's able to anchor the line and stop the run.
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I'm not sure what's complicated about that other than the fact that the average fan is basically innumerate.
Hard to understand slamming other fans when you are looking at sack totals. I mean Lorenzo Carter had 4.5 sacks so he must be world's better than Williams, right??
No, but what's Carter's cap number? And how many draft picks did we trade to acquire him for 8 games before he became a free agent?
You're too smart of a poster to allow yourself to look like a fool for defending this trade, but go for it.
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... And collapses the pocket, I don't care if he gets a single sack all dam season.
Give him a 13 million dollar contract and tell him thank you for your contribution.
He just made $14M this past season. You think he's taking a pay cut with $1.5B of aggregate cap room available leaguewide this offseason?
Not happening. His price tag is going to start at around $16M AAV, probably ends up with something approaching $18M or more.
Clearly I don't follow the $.
That said, the teams that dominate the LOS win more games.
He is a very good football player.
You know where it becomes a terrible trade? If Williams walks. If he's here and the Giants build a top line, that trade will look a lot differently.
I get the point of view that a non-contending team shouldn't give up draft picks for a rental, but cosmic's post above outlines that Williams was unlikely to hit the open market - what if that scenario was true?
I want the Giants to have as many good players as possible, and Williams (if he plays like he did for us) is going to make the team better.
This is an example of what not to do when you are a GM of a team in need of a restructuring.
Its also what not to defend if you are fan...
Well add them all up and you get 9 wins in two years, which I guess also isn’t also a firable offense.
Well add them all up and you get 9 wins in two years, which I guess also isn’t also a firable offense.
You guys make it sound like he inherited a consistent contender and watched as Rome burned.
You can look at a lot of bad teams and question moves made. Even call them fireable offenses. I'm sure making McKinnon one of the highest paid RB's was a good move by Lynch, right? Having the most cap dollars assigned to the RB position in a passing league? Signing Sherman who many thought was declining?
Meanwhile, many moves the Browns made last season were applauded.
You know who fired their GM for "fireable offenses"? Cleveland. And they aren't any better off now and they will repeat the cycle over again.
I really don't know if Gettleman will be successful here, but many of you are certain he won't.
But if the range of outcomes on a LW Deal is:
LOW: Terrible if he walks
HIGH: Makes us a Better Team albeit at a very high cost because we win the bidding war
then I would tell you the GM of this restructuring team isn't doing his job very well.
Please tell me there are players that make the team better that do not have such downside risk we have to take on. Please?
Exactly.
The lack of football acumen by some on here is mind numbing .
Maybe, and just maybe some other lineman's sack total would double in that same environment, but he only commands 1/3 of the price of LW...
is he signed?
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if they had more than one guy that could rush from the edge and collapse the pocket, thus making the QB step up and avoid the rush..ya know...like how most "elite" DT get sacks in the NFL.
Maybe, and just maybe some other lineman's sack total would double in that same environment, but he only commands 1/3 of the price of LW...
I hear you on that - however - that same guy is also going to have to be as stout against the run as LW...a skill at which I would argue LW is elite...all for 1/3 of the price.
Those guys aren't easy to find.
This is how stupid people sound when they bring up that he only had a half sack this season
Tomlinson, Williams and Lawrence are a major trio to have to deal with on the Dline -- and if they had some horses behind them the Defense would start looking like a terrorist organization to opposing teams
Tomlinson, Williams and Lawrence are a major trio to have to deal with on the Dline -- and if they had some horses behind them the Defense would start looking like a terrorist organization to opposing teams
That's the point that I don't know why others aren't seeing it. Gettleman has been trying to build the lines. He's failed thus far on the OL, but the DL is coming along really well. And yet in making that unit one of the best on the team, he still takes crap for it. If the Giants have an elite DL and pay one of those guys $18M a year, that isn't really expensive
And with regards to Williams, if they're (foolishly) paying him $18M is that really wise considering that:
1. he isn't an elite player; and
2. we'd still be in need of an edge rusher, which is typically more expensive
Trading for Williams was inexplicable. Overpaying him would only compound the error.
All he had to do is use a first round pick, acquired by trading away one of our most talented players, and the trade away some more picks to have the chance to pay another guy 18 mil a year.
Maybe if he trades away Jones and Saquon, he will be able to fix the back end.
And with regards to Williams, if they're (foolishly) paying him $18M is that really wise considering that:
1. he isn't an elite player; and
2. we'd still be in need of an edge rusher, which is typically more expensive
Trading for Williams was inexplicable. Overpaying him would only compound the error.
How can you say a 25 year old player isn’t elite? Barrett wasn’t elite last year either. 2. We can afford it.
In regards to the Eagles and cowboys doing whatever they wanted, we ran an aggressive 1 gap scheme. That means our 3 do accounted for three gaps. A,a,b,b,c,c,and d for 1 tight end. That’s 7 gaps my brother, 3 d lineman cannot cover them all. Paying our d line is about shortening the space of those other 4 gaps making it easier for them to be filled, creating the foundation of a dominant defense. That is the purpose.
Tomlinson (drafted by Reese in 2nd round by the way not DG); Lawrence who was a 1st round pick; and Williams who DG is about to break the bank on after also giving draft picks. That is a lot of attention for a team that still needs to find someway to get the QB on the ground more often.
So I am not sure Gettleman is exceeding any expectations of roster building with this unit thus far, do you?
If it goes past 13 million/per we should let him walk. I think we can get someone almost as good for 4-5 million/year with similar production that was not a high 1st round draft pick. !7 million is paying him for his draft position rather than his production.
I do like the player though. Not trash, nowhere close.
Tomlinson (drafted by Reese in 2nd round by the way not DG); Lawrence who was a 1st round pick; and Williams who DG is about to break the bank on after also giving draft picks. That is a lot of attention for a team that still needs to find someway to get the QB on the ground more often.
So I am not sure Gettleman is exceeding any expectations of roster building with this unit thus far, do you?
I mean everyone has different philosophies on how to build a team. After Denver won the Super Bowl they took a more analytical approach, pay the olb and the cb’s, let the interior dL and ilb’s walk. They lost Malik Jackson and Danny trevathan and literally that defense just fell apart game by game. Resetting the line of scrimmage isn’t analytical, there are no stats for it(yet) but it is absolutely important.
+1
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but its not like we aren't paying top dollar for our assets in that area.
Tomlinson (drafted by Reese in 2nd round by the way not DG); Lawrence who was a 1st round pick; and Williams who DG is about to break the bank on after also giving draft picks. That is a lot of attention for a team that still needs to find someway to get the QB on the ground more often.
So I am not sure Gettleman is exceeding any expectations of roster building with this unit thus far, do you?
I mean everyone has different philosophies on how to build a team. After Denver won the Super Bowl they took a more analytical approach, pay the olb and the cb’s, let the interior dL and ilb’s walk. They lost Malik Jackson and Danny trevathan and literally that defense just fell apart game by game. Resetting the line of scrimmage isn’t analytical, there are no stats for it(yet) but it is absolutely important.
This isn't philosophical nor really analytical. We all watch the games, we see that the run defense got better in some of the games in the second half of the year, we see LW holding his own if not more. No question.
My comments were centered around the amount of value DG already placed on grabbing LW, the investment already on that line, and the most important fact that the Defense as a whole is awful.
Need to restructure the defensive scheme, players, and think thru future investment requirements on pass rushers, LBs and Safeties.
And breaking the bank on LW and using draft collateral to precipitate the process was poorly thought out by a GM who seemingly executes this rebuild on the fly versus a cohesive plan...
This is how stupid people sound when they bring up that he only had a half sack this season
Uh, no. That's not remotely comparable. And if you genuinely can't see the difference, you have no room to talk about how stupid anyone sounds.
That's some great logic.
That's some great logic.
Retaining good players is fine. Paying them like they're great players is not.
That's some great logic.
Not at the cost of overpaying them, no.
Is overpaying giving someone what the market will bear?
Williams is a first round level talent. He was picked up going into his prime contract years for a 3 this year and a 4 next year if he signs.
The Giants - if they sign him with have added a 1, a 2, and a 1, and 4 this year, and the second 1 is of a proven value making the Defensive line quite formidable.
I would argue that it is desirable to pay what the market will bear to keep those assets, bolstering the defense.
I think it is a red herring to argue that this is overpaying.
People act like we are signing a career journeyman to be paid at the very top of his position. Just look at the number of posters who mock his sack totals. To many, not getting sacks is indicative that he isn't making an impact.
If you can get a guy at market value who can anchor a position group, you do it. Just like if solder was a stud, he'd be worth the $$$
People act like we are signing a career journeyman to be paid at the very top of his position. Just look at the number of posters who mock his sack totals. To many, not getting sacks is indicative that he isn't making an impact.
If you can get a guy at market value who can anchor a position group, you do it. Just like if solder was a stud, he'd be worth the $$$
Spotrac.com puts his market value at $8.2 million per year. I'd be willing to go ten or eleven million, maybe even twelve. Anything more is insane, and yet DG will probably do it to save face. Just look at the video. It's PR spin, pure and simple.
Most likely what happens is that, if Williams leaves, you are left paying a lot of money to a lesser player. One like Nate Solder.
The whole conceptual basis for this debate is flawed.
Did he play like he was a 1st Round pick? Nope. Not even close to it (just like his first two years in the league).
I also keep hearing stuff like, "LW is better than anyone we could draft #68." That's as may be (as the Limeys say). But the top of the 3rd Round is where you can find a lot of guys who may not be superstars, but who could fill vital roles on your team, especially at positions that are normally devalued in the draft (except for the aforementioned superstars). Guards and Centers, Tight Ends, Safeties, Running Backs.
So, not only are we going to spend a fortune to keep Williams, but we've already spent draft capital on him. That blows.
So...1.5 sacks per year? ;)
That's some great logic.
If that is really your comment then we should just skip going into logic. We can put aside whatever "great logic" is as I would be satisfied if this Front Office could just shoot for plain ol' average logic...
Peppers was playing pretty damn well when he got injured. He was making impact plays and was stout against the run. Outside of the INT returned for a TD, he also had a tackle for loss in 5 of his last 7 games and forced 3 fumbles.
He played better than Collins did the year prior.
He gets lumped in with the overall D performance and that isn't fair.
I'd take Dee Ford or Frank Clark over Leonard Williams any day and twice on Sundays. They had the production to justify it. They're both impact players, difference-makers. Williams is not, but the odds are we're going to pay him like one.
I don't have a problem with the concept. I have a problem with the player...and with the GM.
Do you think Ford or Clark on last year's Giants team make an impact like they have where they are? I don't.
Again - it is like people are making Williams out to be pedestrian.
Williams is not a DE in a 4-3. He's basically a DL guy.
The Giants have plenty of negotiating leverage. It's called a tag (whether that iis one of the two types of franchise tags or the transition tag is a tactical question). LW has every incentive to sign a long-term deal that is likely to include $40M+ of guaranteed cash vs playing our the 2020 season on a tag. The tag is difficult for the teams to manage only if they don't have a lot of cap room. The Giants have plenty. The statement that Gettleman has no leverage is simply FALSE.
The transitional tag is not leverage. If LW gets an offer and we don't match it, there is NO compensation for the lost. So just toss that out.
If you think LW is worth the projected $18M FT for an average/average plus DT, then I guess the Giants do have leverage.
I think DTs are fairly rich in supply and you shouldn't break the bank for that position unless you have a Donald or Cox type. Players who truly impact the pass and the run. LW is not that.
And I'm not sure about this force multiplier impact some suggest LW has. The Jets D didn't miss a beat when he left. And while some cite this material impact he had for us statistically stopping the run, the teams we played down the stretch won't be confused with the '95 Nebraska Cornhuskers. For what we currently have on the roster at DT, I see LW has nothing more than a redundancy.
Just another uninspiring move to add to the list of uninspiring moves by Resume...
You know what Terps -- that's a bunch of bull -- it's totally relevant, and WIlliams is also a first round talent. You are only saying it's irrelevant because you have nothing to really refute here. Might as well just say the facts aren't relevant to prove your point.
Peppers was playing pretty damn well when he got injured. He was making impact plays and was stout against the run. Outside of the INT returned for a TD, he also had a tackle for loss in 5 of his last 7 games and forced 3 fumbles.
He played better than Collins did the year prior.
He gets lumped in with the overall D performance and that isn't fair.
The defense as a whole needs to be greater than the sum of the parts. This defense has plenty of costly parts that need to show far more than they do.
Until that happens lets hold off on saying guys like Peppers are being unfairly viewed...
Game of Terps...
This debate goes round and round. But at least you can smile at these.
Peppers was playing pretty damn well when he got injured. He was making impact plays and was stout against the run. Outside of the INT returned for a TD, he also had a tackle for loss in 5 of his last 7 games and forced 3 fumbles.
He played better than Collins did the year prior.
He gets lumped in with the overall D performance and that isn't fair.
I have a feeling that if the D ever gets better, Peppers will be exposed for what he is, a liability.
Before he got hurt he was the least easy target, but his is not a sound , disciplined player. And no where near the physical run stopper Collins was for us.
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You know what Terps -- that's a bunch of bull -- it's totally relevant, and WIlliams is also a first round talent. You are only saying it's irrelevant because you have nothing to really refute here. Might as well just say the facts aren't relevant to prove your point.
I pointed out facts above - Williams didn't make much difference against Dallas or a crippled Philly team.
The Giants defense was a joke this season. I can't imagine paying anyone on it a premium free agent contract.
I come back to this: A money for B players is bad business.
a) if he's a great fit they can sign him long term.
b) if he's not a great fit they trade him or just let him walk and get a comp pick.
If he's willing to sign a reasonable extension around what Jarrett got right now bc he wants to be here, I'd consider that (though obviously Judge/Graham's opinions would weigh in heavily as well). LW doesn't really have any options if the Giants tag him.
Until that happens lets hold off on saying guys like Peppers are being unfairly viewed...
Our defense is one of the lowest cap allocations in the NFL. 31st. Where are these costly parts? Ogletree and who??
I'd turn it around and say let's hold off on calling players disappointing until we actually are allocating more to that side of the ball, but hey - that might mean putting a pitchfork away for a period of time.
I guess we are getting out 31st lowest payrolls money worth though with our 30th ranked D - Yay!!
Game of Terps...
This debate goes round and round. But at least you can smile at these.
It's just football, man. For me, anyway. I can disagree, but I try not to be too disagreeable. Doesn't always work, but I try. One of the positive takeaways in the aftermath of having a heart attack four years ago. I've lightened up considerably, physically and mentally.
But it's a good thing we're not allowed to discuss politics on the site, lol.
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The defense as a whole needs to be greater than the sum of the parts. This defense has plenty of costly parts that need to show far more than they do.
Until that happens lets hold off on saying guys like Peppers are being unfairly viewed...
Our defense is one of the lowest cap allocations in the NFL. 31st. Where are these costly parts? Ogletree and who??
I'd turn it around and say let's hold off on calling players disappointing until we actually are allocating more to that side of the ball, but hey - that might mean putting a pitchfork away for a period of time.
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You know what Terps -- that's a bunch of bull -- it's totally relevant, and WIlliams is also a first round talent. You are only saying it's irrelevant because you have nothing to really refute here. Might as well just say the facts aren't relevant to prove your point.
Draft position is only relevant for the salary paid for the first contract.
After that, it means absolutely nothing for future contract setting.
If it meant something, why did the Jets only get a 3rd and 5th round pick?
At the point, $15M would be a bargain based on where this could go...
That is a great way to look at it. We can get a bunch of second level players so we can continue to scream at the TVs on Sunday afternoons.
But then again, maybe this coaching staff when assembled will be able to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear or 6.
Game of Terps...
This debate goes round and round. But at least you can smile at these.
I've also called GoT a "parsimonious potato-head," and I usually add a Scrooge McDuck gif from time to time when addressing him.
It's all in fun, though.
We should. So let's consider re-signing Golden. A player with a coveted skill.
LW is a redundancy. We already have multiple guys who can do what he does.
Link - ( New Window )
I pointed out facts above - Williams didn't make much difference against Dallas or a crippled Philly team.
The Giants defense was a joke this season. I can't imagine paying anyone on it a premium free agent contract.
I come back to this: A money for B players is bad business.
Ok -- let's look at the facts: the defense sucked this year because our rookie CBs got targeted, and gave up a ton of plays this year at both critical and non-critical junctures. Also our LB corps was mostly a joke. The Defensive line was the strong point of the defense, and it improved when Williams came on board. For the most part, it could not be run on and it got excellent penetration.
It's disingenuous to say Williams had no impact in the Dallas or Philly game when he had excellent impact in both games. You want to look at the problems in those games - you are reaching when say WIlliams had no impact.
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Can pay for 5-6 players on the secondary free agent market. I think that's where we need to be active - signings like Golden and Remmers, both of which made sense - to supplement the players we draft.
That is a great way to look at it. We can get a bunch of second level players so we can continue to scream at the TVs on Sunday afternoons.
But then again, maybe this coaching staff when assembled will be able to make a silk purse out of a sow's ear or 6.
Roster depth and cap fluidity are keys to long term sustained success. Make them a matter of policy and over time the roster should improve AND be easily modifiable to the needs of a given season.
Getting married to overpriced players like Williams figured to be does the opposite. We should have learned that with Vernon and Jenkins, but it appears what's past is prologue.
How about when the fucking cardinals ran it down our throats?
We gave up 1800 yards rushing, 13th worst in the league.
We gave up 19 rushing Tds. 5th worst in the league.
We has a few games where our run D played a good game
However, mostly key in on Alec Olgetree and watch this chucklehead diagnose plays at LB.
Its comical...
Between Gettleman saying he wants to bring $20m into the regular season and Mara's comments, I think we are looking at a bunch of lower/mid level FA signings with experience in the Patriots way of doing things like Van Noy, Logan Ryan, etc.
I think that would be a very prudent way to go about adding depth and I don't think tagging Williams is at all averse to that. I'd much rather tag Williams and let Golden go, and hopefully get a good comp pick for him if someone overpays.
Roster depth and cap fluidity are keys to long term sustained success. Make them a matter of policy and over time the roster should improve AND be easily modifiable to the needs of a given season.
Getting married to overpriced players like Williams figured to be does the opposite. We should have learned that with Vernon and Jenkins, but it appears what's past is prologue.
Again -- you are using that word overpriced without defining it -- I have argued that the market sets the price -- you have conveniently ignored that in context. Also your depth and fluidity speech is an oversimplification of roster building. If this were true, why would Belichick sign free Agents (which he does), and he is hailed a genius.
You have to use all the tools in the tool bag to build a roster. That's what all the great do. And if you have a conviction you go with it. There is no one set way to build a roster.
The Giants are in the process of building depth. Two drafts, and one to come is insufficient to build adequate depth with. Too many weak free agents is also not going to supply you with sufficient talent. If you are advocating bringing in multiple players like Remmers I think that's incredibly weak and short-sighted. And to use you analysis above Remmers did not help the Giants at all last season. Davis was also wildly undisciplined giving up penalties at very inopportune times during games. THese are hardly model talents to build a team with - they are only crap shoots.
If there is any argument to be made it is that you cannot rely on only roster building via Free Agency -- that doesn't mean you shouldn't bring in FAs that will help the team.
The fact is that opposed to Remmers and Golden --- Williams was a stabilizing influence on the team playing very consistently in the Giants games he played in. You certainly cannot say that about either Remmers or Golden.
Yes exactly -- because Remmers was a turnstyle and Golden was giving up penalties -- so let's get some more of those guys to help build the roster
When solid talent is brought in, it's too much $ or draft capital.
When more affordable guys are brought in, it's a waste...they're bums.
Well which is it fellers, you want we should freeze, or get down on the ground?
I guess, y'all pretty much gahdamned perfect ain't cha?!
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That's funny, because I saw a defense that surrendered 30+ points in 5 of the 8 games he played. I didn't see anything stabilized.
Yes exactly -- because Remmers was a turnstyle and Golden was giving up penalties -- so let's get some more of those guys to help build the roster
Is the best selling point for giving LW a big contract "hey, at least he doesn't suck like Remmers or most of DG's FA acquisitions"?
Jets - 31st
Chi - 29th
Pack - 18th
Phil - 11th
Mia - 23rd
Wash - 30th
Phil - 11th
So it's not like we were playing teams who were rushing juggernauts.
And in the two games we won, against Miami and Washington, Miami had 122 rushing (season avg 72) and Washington had 80 (season avg 98.9).
The juice was worth the squeeze? Moronic.
The juice was worth the squeeze? Moronic.
Some people find it reasonable to give up a 3rd and a 5th, despite Mara claiming we need to build through the draft, to have the right to franchise a player who was once a first round draft choice and has produced modest stats.
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In comment 14779158 Go Terps said:
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That's funny, because I saw a defense that surrendered 30+ points in 5 of the 8 games he played. I didn't see anything stabilized.
Yes exactly -- because Remmers was a turnstyle and Golden was giving up penalties -- so let's get some more of those guys to help build the roster
Is the best selling point for giving LW a big contract "hey, at least he doesn't suck like Remmers or most of DG's FA acquisitions"?
The selling point is the strengths and weaknesses of the player, realize that he wasn’t drafted 6th overall because of his sack numbers at USC. I see him and I see a 6’5 dude that easily extends his long arms.
I see football talent, and at year 5 he’s still pretty raw. I’d rather have him then lose him if we’re actually going to contend for a Super Bowl in the near future. You let him walk because of money in a year where we can easily have 95 mil in cap space and I can’t foresee us contending any time soon.
I’m sorry, we are in Daniel Jones rookie season, it’s full speed ahead in terms of talent acquisition, we don’t need rookies, we need to plug gaps in free agency and continue to build through the draft. If we lose Leonard Williams and overpay a C player, or settle for BJ Hill, I’ll know we are a lost franchise.
The juice was worth the squeeze? Moronic.
cosmic and fmic gave you the juice explanations above.
How much more fruit do you need...
Go Terps : 4:06 pm : link : reply
Can pay for 5-6 players on the secondary free agent market. I think that's where we need to be active - signings like Golden and Remmers, both of which made sense - to supplement the players we draft.
I get having strong drafts to go on the cheap for players. What exactly do you think you're going get for $3M per year? And let's say a guy produces, like Golden. Then what, you're looking at $10M.
I know you want 53 guys on a rookie contract in your ideal way to build a winner, but stocking a team with a bunch of second contract guys getting $3M is laughable. You'll get a DT with 0.5 sacks who sucks against the run!
We are still hearing about some of the failed players DG signed who basically amounted to 1 year cap hits. That's par for the course when trying to roster fill with guys making peanuts. Look at how GB improved their D this year. Look at signings KC made to fill the D. In FA you are going to have to pay some for actual quality.
But then again - I'm seeing a lot of posts acting as if williams is pedestrian and didn't impact things, so I'm not sure I really trust takes on cap management either.
In my view he's an above-average player, and he deserves to be paid accordingly. He's better than pedestrian, but he's hardly elite.
That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
And, of course, the fact that a few drunken sailor-GMs that are desperate in certain years at certain positions (example: DG and Solder) adjust the "market" even moreso, mostly up.
LW is going to be targeted by at least one of the drunken sailors and its going to cause Gettleman to have to up the ante because he committed himself to this deal months ago. Do you really believe DG folds here?
But again, keep hoping this ends well for the NY Giants because that's akin to how the GM runs this franchise...
And, of course, the fact that a few drunken sailor-GMs that are desperate in certain years at certain positions (example: DG and Solder) adjust the "market" even moreso, mostly up.
LW is going to be targeted by at least one of the drunken sailors and its going to cause Gettleman to have to up the ante because he committed himself to this deal months ago. Do you really believe DG folds here?
But again, keep hoping this ends well for the NY Giants because that's akin to how the GM runs this franchise...
He was paid 14 mil this year, he was worth that. If his cap hit is 17 mil next year, I’m confident he will be worth that as well. No hope involved. When you have Ogletree and mayo putting out the film they did, you’re not going to able to see the impact Williams made clearly. That doesn’t mean Williams didn’t play well. Elite players have 20mil+ cap hits, Leonard isn’t getting paid as an elite player, he’s getting paid like a 25 year old very good could be great player.
The actual market rate we need to use as a comp is the post 2020 FA bonanza ...because the rate in 2021 and beyond is only higher. Hence...the real jarring news will be what it takes to keep a DTomlinson in a post 2020 market.
They have a little slack given DJ's first contract and its usually better to improve a differential strength of the team ( asymmetric major unit advantages create crimps in the other teams abilities) than overspend to bring a unit up to average ( and the center of the D is a key to capturing positive multiplier effects) but man they have no LBs and OL and unconvincing DBs. Overwhelming number of needs
The structure of the contract may be more important than the initial facing numbers.
If that means we lose out on the Leonard Williams sweepstakes, so be it...
Lawrence - mid first round
Tomlinson - mid/late 2nd round
Jay Bromley (just kidding)
Hankins - Mid 2nd round
Linval - Mid 2nd round
Jay Alford - Mid/late 3rd round
DI Leonard Williams, New York Giants
No player had a bigger deference between his pressure rate rank and sack rate rank than Williams, who split the year between the Giants and the New York Jets prior to his trade. Among 87 interior defenders with 200 or more pass-rushing snaps, Williams ranked 13th in pressure rate at 11.3% but his one sack in 424 pass-rushing snaps put him near the bottom of the list in sack rate. On the other hand, Williams led the position with 19 quarterback hits. A few fractions of a second faster on several of those plays and that sack total looks a whole lot more respectable.
Considering the draft capital that the Giants gave up acquiring Williams, it seems likely that they’ll retain him moving forward. He’s always been a better run defender than a pass-rusher, but he’s certainly better in the passing game than the one sack he was able to produce in 2019. Now the Giants just need to figure out how to balance all the young talent they have at interior defensive line if they re-sign Williams.
Link - ( New Window )
Lawrence - mid first round
Tomlinson - mid/late 2nd round
Jay Bromley (just kidding)
Hankins - Mid 2nd round
Linval - Mid 2nd round
Jay Alford - Mid/late 3rd round
Exactly. There are even more examples from other teams:
Jurrell Casey, 3rd round; Chris Jones, 2nd round; Grady Jarrett, 5th round; DJ Reader, 5th round; Michael Pierce, UDFA; Brandon Williams, 3rd round, Shelby Harris, 7th round...
It's become a commoditized position. Lots of big guys available to eat up space...