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NFT: So what is going happen with Carlos Beltran?

micky : 1/15/2020 10:08 am
Fired, safe, or ignore his part in whole thing?
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RE: LOL here it comes....  
DanMetroMan : 1/15/2020 3:58 pm : link
In comment 14780758 pjcas18 said:
Quote:


Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
∑ 9m
ďIntegrityĒ is a huge franchise buzzword with the Mets - especially with Fred Wilpon - to the point there is legitimate concern for Carlos Beltranís job at the moment.


Madoff, Reyes, Familia, Jeff's sexual harassment... should I go on? lol
RE: My question is this:  
speedywheels : 1/15/2020 3:59 pm : link
In comment 14780778 montanagiant said:
Quote:
Beltran was a player when this occurred. If he gets punished shouldn't the other 23 players they claim were involved be punished also?


MLB doesn't want to get into a protracted battle with the MLBPA - Beltran isn't an active player, so easier to punish
RE: 'because the other players are still active and protected'  
RDJR : 1/15/2020 4:10 pm : link
In comment 14780779 Torrag said:
Quote:
Then don't name anyone. That's basic fairness.


Different rules apply to different employee groups. Management employees or those unprotected by the provisions of a CBA or contract always get named in an employment investigation (which this is most similar to).
.  
DanMetroMan : 1/15/2020 4:13 pm : link

IB 🔌
@incarceratedbob

4m
Source: Mets have an announcement on it's way
RE: RE: My question is this:  
Dunedin81 : 1/15/2020 4:14 pm : link
In comment 14780784 speedywheels said:
Quote:
In comment 14780778 montanagiant said:


Quote:


Beltran was a player when this occurred. If he gets punished shouldn't the other 23 players they claim were involved be punished also?



MLB doesn't want to get into a protracted battle with the MLBPA - Beltran isn't an active player, so easier to punish


And his being fired isn't a league punishment (nor are the firings of Cora and Hinch, for that matter).
he's probably  
Burt64 : 1/15/2020 4:14 pm : link
stepping down
'Different rules apply to different employee groups.'  
Torrag : 1/15/2020 4:15 pm : link
BS. They included his name because they wanted to bolster their report with someone recognizable and they 'could' by rule. It wasn't 'illegal' but it was unfair to name him as the only player because the rest are 'shielded'. Still call BS.
I do not consider him a source  
pjcas18 : 1/15/2020 4:16 pm : link
but FWIW incarceratedbob says Mets have an announcement coming.

I hate when the jackals get their way

and I am one of those people who feel like the manager of a baseball team has a limited impact, but caving to the frothing pitchfork crowd is a brutally weak move.
Cancel culture  
Chris684 : 1/15/2020 4:20 pm : link
The new normal

Sad
Multiple Sources  
giantsfan227B : 1/15/2020 4:31 pm : link
Saying Mets have a "pending announcement."

One tweet I saw from someone that claims Beltran is her uncle is that he is stepping down from the Mets manager position.
any chance this announcement is...  
Drewcon40 : 1/15/2020 4:34 pm : link
...that they are keeping Beltran?
Mike  
DanMetroMan : 1/15/2020 4:39 pm : link
Silva claims a source tells him Beltran is stepping down.
I think Beltran is gone.  
giantsfan227B : 1/15/2020 4:46 pm : link
Dallas Braden
@DALLASBRADEN209

1h
This is the public perception aspect I was referring to. Iím not saying it lasts a week or a month or however long. Iím saying if Beltran & the Mets can ďwear itĒ & they feel the clubhouse can survive it, then maybe they move fwd. IMO the ?ís never stop coming.

This all just sucks so much. AC is a great baseball mind. Beltran wasnít getting fed pitches via video as a player and the pedigree of these guys should not be forgotten. You donít fake it for 13 & 19 years in the show. That said, Itís just CRAZY to watch this unfold.

Letís consider this:
Does a Beltran resignation & his designation as a PLAYER when this began, void him of any punishment?

A mutually agreed upon split by Cora & SOX could be viewed as Cora putting the Org ahead of himself & a resignation from Beltran could seen similarly.


Link - ( New Window )
Unreal.  
moze1021 : 1/15/2020 6:25 pm : link
So dumb.

Kills my excitement for the season.

Well let me try to add something rather than just bitch .  
moze1021 : 1/15/2020 6:46 pm : link
Given the media obsession with this event, which I find way overblown, I guess the Mets and Beltran do have to ask if they want to deal with it.

Resigning/firing is the easiest path.

So no doubt now that's the path Mets take.

A franchise that has failed to establish a culture and identity for 30 years, trying to emulate or copy what they think the media wants vs making strong in-house decisions, is absolutely going to break here.

Now the question.. who the F manages the Mets on 2020??
He cant be  
Rolyrock : 1/15/2020 6:53 pm : link
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.
RE: RE: I donít get it  
section125 : 1/15/2020 6:54 pm : link
In comment 14780544 LTIsTheGreatest said:
Quote:
In comment 14780102 Rflairr said:


Quote:


If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?



because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA


He was a player at the time...
RE: He cant be  
moze1021 : 1/15/2020 7:00 pm : link
In comment 14780992 Rolyrock said:
Quote:
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.


Anyone who doesn't respect and value Beltran's time as a Mets player automatically loses all credibility.

Anyone bringing up the Cards AB..pathetic.

I mean shit...I seriously don't understand how people can get so mad at this stuff... The vast majority of players we grew up with were cheaters. Every Mets fans favorite turn of the century favorite player was a cheater.

I wonder when all this vitriol will start for all of the other players  
PhiPsi125 : 1/15/2020 7:02 pm : link
that possibly participated/orchestrated the cheating?

Based on the media reaction and these amazingly predictable threads, people should be clamoring for half of the Astros players to resign and walk away from the game, right?
RE: I wonder when all this vitriol will start for all of the other players  
moze1021 : 1/15/2020 7:09 pm : link
In comment 14781001 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
that possibly participated/orchestrated the cheating?

Based on the media reaction and these amazingly predictable threads, people should be clamoring for half of the Astros players to resign and walk away from the game, right?


And never be allowed to work in baseball again.


Despite the fact that we have no idea if other teams did this and just didn't get caught
Mets Hot Stove  
giantsfan227B : 1/15/2020 7:13 pm : link
Had some interesting points this evening.

1) Why does Carlos Beltran appear at all in the 7 page report? Joe Torre before the 2018 season started said only managers, upper management and owners would face penalties. No players would face fines, suspensions etc.. That was to get players to talk. So if that is the case why mention his name at all.
A) A little wink wink Mets that you may want to consider getting rid of him.
B) Try to embarrass him for lying to Joel Sherman.

In either case the Mets better be very careful here. Yes they could fire him but on what grounds. MLB said we aren't punishing him. If the Mets fire him he can sue saying I was asked to testify on grounds there would be no punishment.

They should wait. There is no rush to judge him. Get all of the info and then come out and say he is our man. Saying it immediately could make them look foolish as would firing him without all info. They can do their due diligence but at the end of the day, if MLB said testify and nothing will happen to you because you were a player, they shouldn't worry UNLESS

they look at Beltran being an adviser with the Yankees last year as an management position. Cora stated Beltran was their best off-season acquisition and he even winked after the Boston-Yankees series in LDN which seemed to indicate he knew they were stealing signs.
The Mets should have balls  
Chris684 : 1/15/2020 7:16 pm : link
And release a statement that they are sticking with Beltran.

If they want to, let Beltran issue a token apology and end it there.

If Beltran has to step down, what happens to the ALL of the other Astros players who, at a minimum, knew this was going on but didnít say anything?
RE: RE: He cant be  
Rolyrock : 1/15/2020 7:33 pm : link

I agree with your points on cheating and I guess lying. That's why I dont dont watch it any more. They are all cheats and liars. Millionaires. I listen on the radio fishing I like the sound.

The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.



Anyone who doesn't respect and value Beltran's time as a Mets player automatically loses all credibility.

Anyone bringing up the Cards AB..pathetic.

I mean shit...I seriously don't understand how people can get so mad at this stuff... The vast majority of players we grew up with were cheaters. Every Mets fans favorite turn of the century favorite player was a cheater.
[/quote]
RE: RE: RE: I donít get it  
Eman11 : 1/15/2020 7:37 pm : link
In comment 14780995 section125 said:
Quote:
In comment 14780544 LTIsTheGreatest said:


Quote:


In comment 14780102 Rflairr said:


Quote:


If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?



because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA



He was a player at the time...


That's my take too section.

I can't imagine he wouldn't be protected by the MLBPA for anything that happened when he was a player.
People are too focused on factual arguments pro and con  
rich in DC : 1/15/2020 7:48 pm : link
For the majority of non-NY sports fans and media, the facts are NOT going to matter- the perception does. You never win in the court of public opinion when perception is against you.

The Mets are already in a bad PR position to start with- the Wilpons do not have a good rep outside NY- and have run the team as a mid-market club despite having the NY media market to play in. Fans outside NY are just looking for reasons to bury the Mets and the Wilpons.

We already saw that Yahoo Sports has an article up basically concluding that Beltran had to go. That's just the start.

The Mets are now in a no-win situation. If they quickly fire Beltran, media and others won't care about the timeline showing the cheating scandal broke after he was hired- they will believe that the Mets messed up. If the Mets try and weather the storm, the Mets will become the focus on media and fan ire- and even eventually relenting and firing Beltran won't ease the storm.

IMO, the best-case scenario for the Mets would be for Beltran to resign tomorrow, and face the media to own up to what he did- and try to exonorate the Mets as best he can.

The Red Sox realized that there was no feasible way that they could keep Cora and acted very quickly. The knew the media would be relentless- and they have their own scandal that they will have to own up to. Having a handy scapegoat helps get out from under the scandal.

The Mets need to get Beltran to take the blame, resign, and own this- and move the focus off the team.
Stealing signs is a hundred years old....  
Jerry's Kids : 1/15/2020 7:49 pm : link
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
RE: We all know what's going to happen  
jpkmets : 1/15/2020 8:00 pm : link
In comment 14780771 moespree said:
Quote:
Fred only cares about PR. He will do his usual leave everyone twisting in the wind routine, dragging it out (which actually always gets him worse PR ironically) before finally either firing him or having Beltran resign. That's Fred through and through.


Yup, a final Wilpon ball-less move to make us all wish for ownership change sooner. Gutless owner. Anyone with some guts has made a statement by now. Fred is always caving to public opinion and always doing it wrong.

Canít wait until his family is done with the Mets.
RE: Stealing signs is a hundred years old....  
moze1021 : 1/15/2020 8:38 pm : link
In comment 14781047 Jerry's Kids said:
Quote:
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.


Exactly!!
RE: Stealing signs is a hundred years old....  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/15/2020 9:20 pm : link
In comment 14781047 Jerry's Kids said:
Quote:
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.


Do you understand the fundamental why signs are stolen?

Because knowing the pitch greatly increases your odds to get a hit. There is a massive difference between figuring out a sign system and relaying them from second base to having cameras monitor the signs and transmit the data in real time so the batter can be alerted.

If a batter knows the pitch, his job is tremendously easier. He only has to pick a zone and watch the release point and initial trajectory of the ball to see if it will be a strike or not. Off speed pitches lose the element of surprise. Sliders become easy to decipher if they will be in the zone or not. It is not outrageous to say a batter will have a .075 or more advantage in the long run in those situations.

RE: He cant be  
Rory : 1/15/2020 9:54 pm : link
In comment 14780992 Rolyrock said:
Quote:
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.


only loser i see is this rolyrock fuck
RE: RE: Stealing signs is a hundred years old....  
moze1021 : 1/15/2020 10:30 pm : link
In comment 14781146 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
In comment 14781047 Jerry's Kids said:


Quote:


Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.



Do you understand the fundamental why signs are stolen?

Because knowing the pitch greatly increases your odds to get a hit. There is a massive difference between figuring out a sign system and relaying them from second base to having cameras monitor the signs and transmit the data in real time so the batter can be alerted.

If a batter knows the pitch, his job is tremendously easier. He only has to pick a zone and watch the release point and initial trajectory of the ball to see if it will be a strike or not. Off speed pitches lose the element of surprise. Sliders become easy to decipher if they will be in the zone or not. It is not outrageous to say a batter will have a .075 or more advantage in the long run in those situations.


Yeah I think that's understood...

I'm pretty sure the point was..cheating always has existed, always will. Astros got caught. To think they were the only ones doing it is naive. Seems now we already have whispers that Red Sox and Yankees may have dabbled in a system just by way of having Cora and Beltran.
LOL..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/15/2020 10:39 pm : link
there are "whispers" the Red Sox "dabbled in" cheating.

Are you fucking kidding?
RE: The Mets should have balls  
shockeyisthebest8056 : 1/15/2020 11:31 pm : link
In comment 14781013 Chris684 said:
Quote:
And release a statement that they are sticking with Beltran.

If they want to, let Beltran issue a token apology and end it there.

If Beltran has to step down, what happens to the ALL of the other Astros players who, at a minimum, knew this was going on but didnít say anything?


I don't think he needs to step down or be fired. But the GM and the owner should get in front of the press and say Beltran knows the current rules, the expectations of the league and organization, and (we're) confident he won't put this opportunity to manage in jeopardy.

If they really like Beltran, there's no need to give the press a pound of flesh (as Shurmur said).
RE: LOL..  
moze1021 : 1/16/2020 6:12 am : link
In comment 14781233 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
there are "whispers" the Red Sox "dabbled in" cheating.

Are you fucking kidding?


Nope

I mean maybe semantic issues with my choice of words... Suspicion?
The Red Sox..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2020 8:14 am : link
were using the replay room to transmit signs.

Is that semantical?
If I am Mets Senior MGMT  
JPinstripes : 1/16/2020 8:20 am : link
I am sticking with Beltran unless he is suspended from MLB. None of the players involved are resigning or getting suspended from their jobs. Next...
RE: The Red Sox..  
moze1021 : 1/16/2020 9:55 am : link
In comment 14781353 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
were using the replay room to transmit signs.

Is that semantical?


Oh cool... I thought you were saying I was making it up re: Red Sox..

You're just expanding the point... many other teams likely doing this. People gotta chill out and look for the systemic solution, not just make an example out of 1 case and act like it's a rogue actor.
Dude..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2020 9:59 am : link
this isn't one case! The Astros system and the Red Sox systems are two separate things.

Are you trying to say that the Red Sox using video to steal signs and pass it along is just a rumor or that they weren't doing it at all?

These aren't "whispers" or hints at "dabbling". It is full-blown cheating and you'll see the extent when Cora gets punished. They are actually discussing a lifetime ban - although I think it will be less harsh than that.
Morrison said Yankees and Dodgers did it too  
Vanzetti : 1/16/2020 10:15 am : link
Both teams have been playing the victim when it comes to the Astros, but why would Morrison include them if it were not true?

Maybe he just doesn't like Big Money teams. Possible I guess. But where there is smoke there is usually fire.
RE: Morrison said Yankees and Dodgers did it too  
Metnut : 1/16/2020 10:25 am : link
In comment 14781517 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
Both teams have been playing the victim when it comes to the Astros, but why would Morrison include them if it were not true?

Maybe he just doesn't like Big Money teams. Possible I guess. But where there is smoke there is usually fire.


Is there a link to support this?
The other thing is  
Vanzetti : 1/16/2020 10:26 am : link
Stealing signs is part of baseball culture and has been going on for over a hundred years.

There were guys who stayed in the big leagues just because they were adept at stealing signs.

Using video and digital technology obviously takes it to a different level. But to me, baseball has been remiss in not updating their policies to keep up with technology. Manfred's sole job is to monitor baseball and it never occurred to him that teams might be stealing signs in this way?

It's like a teacher who discovers their students have been texting all year and then suddenly goes ballistic. Yeah, the students are at fault but so is the teacher. Ditto for Manfred.

RE: RE: Morrison said Yankees and Dodgers did it too  
Vanzetti : 1/16/2020 10:27 am : link
In comment 14781535 Metnut said:
Quote:
In comment 14781517 Vanzetti said:


Quote:


Both teams have been playing the victim when it comes to the Astros, but why would Morrison include them if it were not true?

Maybe he just doesn't like Big Money teams. Possible I guess. But where there is smoke there is usually fire.



Is there a link to support this?


It's on Morrison's twitter. Just google Logan Morrison cheating
I'd love..  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2020 10:29 am : link
to know the guys who stayed in the league because they were adept at stealing signs.

Not understanding the difference between doing something overtly vs. doing it covertly to an entirely different level is either being willfully ignorant or just being downright stupid.
Logan Morrison is a whiny bitch with an ax to grind  
Greg from LI : 1/16/2020 10:30 am : link
with the Yankees. He's probably still crying about not being asked to do the 2017 home run derby.
Also, the issue is not stealing signs  
Greg from LI : 1/16/2020 10:31 am : link
Yes, everyone does that. The issue is using technology to do it in real time, something that not everyone does, and something that all teams were specifically warned to not do by MLB in 2017.
RE: Dude..  
moze1021 : 1/16/2020 10:40 am : link
In comment 14781477 FatMan in Charlotte said:
Quote:
this isn't one case! The Astros system and the Red Sox systems are two separate things.

Are you trying to say that the Red Sox using video to steal signs and pass it along is just a rumor or that they weren't doing it at all?

These aren't "whispers" or hints at "dabbling". It is full-blown cheating and you'll see the extent when Cora gets punished. They are actually discussing a lifetime ban - although I think it will be less harsh than that.


Not sure why you are getting angry at me.. I didn't know the Red Sox events were already fact, I though they were still just rumors.

To me its all the same.. lots of teams probably using technology to steal signs. Astros got caught and they are getting the Bonds/Clemens treatment while other teams skate by and get treated like Piazza and enter the HOF with no issue..


RE: Logan Morrison is a whiny bitch with an ax to grind  
Eman11 : 1/16/2020 10:46 am : link
In comment 14781544 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
with the Yankees. He's probably still crying about not being asked to do the 2017 home run derby.


Yup, that's was exactly my take when I heard he had made those comments.
Stealing signs  
JPinstripes : 1/16/2020 10:46 am : link
without technology is part of the game - it's cat and mouse AND dog.

It's like bluffing in poker, reading the opponent's eyes and other physical body movements and facial experssions.

To me baseball is the one sport that needs less technology... Umps missing a call or having the strike zone expand or shrink based on game day variables is part of the game, providing the calls are consistent for both teams.
RE: Also, the issue is not stealing signs  
moze1021 : 1/16/2020 10:47 am : link
In comment 14781550 Greg from LI said:
Quote:
Yes, everyone does that. The issue is using technology to do it in real time, something that not everyone does, and something that all teams were specifically warned to not do by MLB in 2017.


I think it's too early to know the degree to which your statement "something that not everyone does" is true... did 1 team do it? 2 teams? 15 teams? 25 teams?

We might never know.
RE: Stealing signs  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2020 10:50 am : link
In comment 14781582 JPinstripes said:
Quote:
without technology is part of the game - it's cat and mouse AND dog.

It's like bluffing in poker, reading the opponent's eyes and other physical body movements and facial experssions.

To me baseball is the one sport that needs less technology... Umps missing a call or having the strike zone expand or shrink based on game day variables is part of the game, providing the calls are consistent for both teams.


That's a really good analogy. Imagine the difference between reading a bluff and having video showing a player's hole cards. There's actually a case right now of a guy in the Bay Area using video to see opponents hole cards and he's been banned for life from a whole slew of casinos and he's facing criminal charges.
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