then let him get with planning for managing the Mets this season.
If he does something similar with the Mets....then all bets are off....but the punishment is pretty steep and my feeling is that nothing this overt will be done again.
If MLB is worried about signs being stolen....then put headsets on the Manager's head and a small speaker in the pitcher's hat so a sign can be given without the catcher.
The catcher could also have the speaker so he will know how to position himself for the pitch.
Looks like he's trying to alienate Mets fans as well as he does it for Yankee fans!
If this is his take on Beltran, what did he do when Pineda took a bath in pine tar before taking the mound a few years back? Did he call for a public execution?
Looks like he's trying to alienate Mets fans as well as he does it for Yankee fans!
If this is his take on Beltran, what did he do when Pineda took a bath in pine tar before taking the mound a few years back? Did he call for a public execution?
He's not being disciplined by major league baseball.
Does anyone who was on the Astros from 2017-2019 need to be banned from baseball?
Metsnut, that is my point as well. Where will it end? The only reason Beltran is being mentioned now is because he is no longer a player and protected by the union.
He should keep his job, the Mets have to fire him. He was one of the masterminds of this cheating scandal and the mets will hurt themselves more if they keep him around.
He should keep his job, the Mets have to fire him. He was one of the masterminds of this cheating scandal and the mets will hurt themselves more if they keep him around.
I keep seeing this "mastermind" phrase being thrown around. If he was indeed played that role, then why did MLB suspend Hinch/Lunhow and are about to come down on Cora? But the real "mastermind" gets away scott free? Come on, you guys can't really believe that, right?
By the way, is there an actual article or report out there that calls Beltran the ring leader in this?
He should keep his job, the Mets have to fire him. He was one of the masterminds of this cheating scandal and the mets will hurt themselves more if they keep him around.
Absolutely ZERO evidence he was "one of the masterminds". Thanks though. He was mentioned ONCE in the report. Cora... 11 times.
He lied multiple times to the press regarding his involvement in the sign stealing fiasco and he was one of the primary players. His credibility is shot already. With two WS winning managers dismissed already Mets cannot justify keeping a rookie MGR under these circumstances.
From what I've read MLB has instructed people not to discuss it (at least it sounds that way).
I would expect MLB to put out a statement explaining the lack of player punishment (including Beltran) though I think we all can understand why they aren't disciplining the players.
and I think MLB is probably waiting for the Red Sox investigation to wrap before releasing that statement.
Punishing players is problematic because of the MLBPA. You would have to punish all the players including former Astros players (and who knows, maybe Red Sox players), who in any way benefited or knew about it and then you have large amounts of players facing disciplinary action of some type and the MLBPA would appeal and the rules were sketchy in 2017 and from the MLB perspective it would likely throw gas on a simmering fire.
Punishing only those in authority probably makes the most sense for MLB.
He lied multiple times to the press regarding his involvement in the sign stealing fiasco and he was one of the primary players. His credibility is shot already. With two WS winning managers dismissed already Mets cannot justify keeping a rookie MGR under these circumstances.
IMO, it all depends on if he lied to Mets ownership during the interview process?
I would have to imagine he didn't which could explain why Beltran knew he had protection and refused to interview with other teams.
Quite honestly I could give a f*** about him lying to the NY media. Most of those people (specifically beat writers) are liars in their own right
If he comes out and issues a formally apology and confirms Mets management already had knowledge then hit him with a fine for a charitable cause and lets move on.
He lied multiple times to the press regarding his involvement in the sign stealing fiasco and he was one of the primary players. His credibility is shot already. With two WS winning managers dismissed already Mets cannot justify keeping a rookie MGR under these circumstances.
So? Everybody lies to the press. Often times, the press lies, too. Who cares? Nothing will happen, that's what I think.
The only way I could see them firing him is just that
if for some reason the media doesn't let go of the whole thing and it ends up being a distraction.
I think Beltran would be best served just addressing it head on, apologizing for the part he played, saying he learned his lesson and moving on (if he hasn't done so already). The fans have a relatively short memory, I doubt it lingers for very long.
if the Mets would be on the hook for his entire contract since he wasn't disciplined for the scandal, then I don't think they fire him.
If it's a scenario like the Giants have with Golden Tate, where discipline against him in 2019 means part of his contract is voided and they can move on without the financial liability, then I think they fire him.
From what it sounds like, he won't get disciplined. So unless they have some type of mutual agreement where he leaves and only collects a small % of his salary, I don't think he is fired.
First I thought they should fire him. Then I realized after Hinch serves his suspension he most likely will get another coaching job. Since Beltran was not suspended, he should not be fired. However, if the Mets asked him if he did do it and he was not truthful to them, then all bets are off.
People are overstating how much of a controversy this will be once the season starts. No one comes to games to see the manager make pitching changes. Once spring training starts it'll be all about deGrom, Syndergaard, Cespedes, Alonso and the rest of the gang. Beltran just needs to endure one awkward press conference.
He should make a public statement though and then that's it. It's a tricky thing though because the Mets had nothing to do with it and will now be roped into it. Also suspending or having to fire him penalizes the Mets, for something they had no part of which is certainly an unfair result for them. That's what makes it difficult.
I don't have a feel one way or another for what is going to happen. My guess it comes down to whether or not Beltran was honest with them. If he at any point lied to them about something with this then I would guess he probably won't last.
I think we all know the answer to that. They would have either made a strong statement of support by now or they would have shitcaned him. Typical Mets are going to let him twist in the wind
I think we all know the answer to that. They would have either made a strong statement of support by now or they would have shitcaned him. Typical Mets are going to let him twist in the wind
I don't think this is as definitive as you purport. There are a lot of factors that were stated in this thread that does not make this an easy decision. Everyone knows the Mets operate with an eye towards money. This is likely a complicated decision based on the impending sale to Cohen. Perhaps they already spoke to Carlos and he is aware of his fate?
we will all find out shortly. Not good for baseball regardless.
I remember The Boss being kicked out of baseball for a few years and i'd prefer the heaviest sanctions come down on the owners who by proxy facilitated the cheating. You hit the owners in the mouth and you can be sure they won't leave anyone involved unflayed.
That coaches and GMs would be held responsible and players would not be punished.
Obviously that is motivated by $$$ because baseball does not want to ban guys like Altuve and Springer for a year. Also what about guys like Cole who had to know about it even though they were not direct participants?Is that fair?
Probably not. But it is a clear cut criterion and that in itself is a virtue.
Since Beltran was a player at the time, he avoids a penalty. For the Mets to penalize him, would completely muddy the waters.
That coaches and GMs would be held responsible and players would not be punished.
Obviously that is motivated by $$$ because baseball does not want to ban guys like Altuve and Springer for a year. Also what about guys like Cole who had to know about it even though they were not direct participants?Is that fair?
Probably not. But it is a clear cut criterion and that in itself is a virtue.
Since Beltran was a player at the time, he avoids a penalty. For the Mets to penalize him, would completely muddy the waters.
You bring up a great point.
Should any member of the Astros over that time span face penalty for not speaking up about what they surely knew was going on?
I would end this thing right where it is, but its a reasonable question to ask.
3m
Heres what the Mets currently have as an analytics department according to their own website: Guttridge as AGM, a baseball systems and development manager, and ONE research analyst. One.
Not every team lists every contractor and intern and such. But still.
If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?
because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA
If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?
because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA
I'm not so sure about that as you're talking about penalizing him for something that happened when he was a player. I would think he'd fall under their protection in that instance.
Now if they have something on him he did after playing that's a different story.
might be able to succeed in a termination for cause. The problem for the Mets is that they probably wouldn't be, unless he lied demonstrably in the interview (would also depend on the language of the contract). I don't think money would be the dominating factor but - all kidding aside - it's the Mets and the new sheriff isn't in town yet so who knows?
with regards to Beltran possibly lying during the Interview
again, timing doesn't line up - based on what I've read. The Mets interviewed and hired Beltran BEFORE the Fiers interview with the Athletic, and before Jomboy tweets aligning the trash can bangs with pitches forced MLB to investigate.
I was not in the interviews obviously, but I would not be surprised if this topic never came up while Beltran weas interviewing with the Mets, so I doubt he lied or misled the Mets on this topic.
until I saw this report come out on Bleacher Report. So far they are hitting the nail on the head with stories on who will be hired, fired and other rumors.
Bleacher Report references this video saying Mets are starting to waver on their decision to hire Beltran. Link - ( New Window )
QT @S0_blessed1
My Tio Carlos is stepping down as Mets manager <span class="emoji-outer emoji-sizer"><span class="emoji-inner" style="background: url(chrome-extension://immhpnclomdloikkpcefncmfgjbkojmh/emoji-data/sheet_apple_32.png);background-position:61.98589894242068% 24.030552291421856%;background-size:5418.75% 5418.75%" data-codepoints="1f622"></span></span>
2:11pm 15 Jan 2020
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
QT
@S0_blessed1
No Autographs! Simple girl in a difficult city. Texas Longhorns🤘🏼Alum : Struggling med student - My favorite Uncle @Carlosbeltran15 ❤️
until I saw this report come out on Bleacher Report. So far they are hitting the nail on the head with stories on who will be hired, fired and other rumors.
Bleacher Report references this video saying Mets are starting to waver on their decision to hire Beltran. Link - ( New Window )
The funny thing is I have seen so many Yankee fan announcers or ex-players such as Teixeira and Sabathia come out and say the Yankees were robbed and the Mets should fire Beltran and yet where was Beltran last season? With the Yankees and Cora had no issue saying without saying Beltran is their biggest asset (wink wink). I don't think the Yankees were totally innocent as I don't think the Res Sox and Astros are the only teams doing this.
Said it in the other thread, but still feel the same.
Mets should fire Beltran if he lied to them about this during the interview process.
If he came clean with them, and they felt comfortable regardless, they shouldnt now try to curry favor with MLB and writers and fire their manager, who was not disciplined by MLB.
If they didnt ask him about this, then Brodie should be fired today. But my general opinion is that the blame for this is on management with the Astros. They got the directives from MLB - including the one after the Apple Watch deal in 2017, not the players.
Beltran would be in a whole different situation had he done anything along these lines as management in 2018, I think.
Wilpons will probably fire him despite him previously disclosing to them, just because they are weak, weak men.
if they found any evidence of wrongdoing while with the Yankees - he was an executive at that point, not a player. The 2017 Astros investigation led MLB to the 2018 Red Sox - I'm sure they looked into Beltran with the Yankees, too. Yankees have had plenty of controversies over the years - including Chapman and German recently - we can sit this one out for a change.
RE: with regards to Beltran possibly lying during the Interview
again, timing doesn't line up - based on what I've read. The Mets interviewed and hired Beltran BEFORE the Fiers interview with the Athletic, and before Jomboy tweets aligning the trash can bangs with pitches forced MLB to investigate.
I was not in the interviews obviously, but I would not be surprised if this topic never came up while Beltran weas interviewing with the Mets, so I doubt he lied or misled the Mets on this topic.
Well, its possible that industry scuttlebutt had this on the radar before the Fiers article, in which case they asked him. However, even the Mets would have had to call him up immediately after the Fiers article and ask him to divulge his role.
Mets will can him if 1) he lied to them during the interview process or after the story broke or 2) they feel like the press will call them out as bad people if they retain him.
I think 2 is more likely. Would not surprise me for Beltran to resign under pretense of sparing the team from controversy.
Either way, typical Wilpon bullshit that the team is thus far silent. They cant leave soon enough due to their unique combo of cheapness, weakness, and desire to pander to Selig or Manfred. No juevos in our ownership group at all.
Give it to his bench coach that they hired? Or go with what was thought to be the runner up Perez? It's unique since it's not in season, so I guess they could do a whole interview process again if they wanted.
You would think the Mets would want to get ahead of this
Give it to his bench coach that they hired? Or go with what was thought to be the runner up Perez? It's unique since it's not in season, so I guess they could do a whole interview process again if they wanted.
Well both the Astros and Red Sox are in the same boat and one would think those would be more attractive destinations for someone who would want to win now.
This is what the report actually said about Beltran...
two months into the 2017 season, a group of players, including
Carlos Beltrn, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams signs
and communicating the signs to the batter.
So the team had devised a cheating method. They were cheating. Then Beltran and other players, who should also be named BTW as it's unfair to list only Beltran imo, improved the method of relaying the information to the field. Are the others being shielded because they are still active on the field? That's BS.
That doesn't seem to me to warrant being suspended/fined by MLB if no one else was or fired by the Mets. IMO.
if he survives the next two weeks, he's probably fine. The mob will dissipate for find another target and the worst he'll get is the stray razzing from road crowds.
RE: You would think the Mets would want to get ahead of this
Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
9m
Integrity is a huge franchise buzzword with the Mets - especially with Fred Wilpon - to the point there is legitimate concern for Carlos Beltrans job at the moment.
RE: This is what the report actually said about Beltran...
two months into the 2017 season, a group of players, including
Carlos Beltrn, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams signs
and communicating the signs to the batter.
So the team had devised a cheating method. They were cheating. Then Beltran and other players, who should also be named BTW as it's unfair to list only Beltran imo, improved the method of relaying the information to the field. Are the others being shielded because they are still active on the field? That's BS.
That doesn't seem to me to warrant being suspended/fined by MLB if no one else was or fired by the Mets. IMO.
They named him because the other players are still active and protected by the CBA and the MLBPA. Beltran is not.
Fred only cares about PR. He will do his usual leave everyone twisting in the wind routine, dragging it out (which actually always gets him worse PR ironically) before finally either firing him or having Beltran resign. That's Fred through and through.
Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
9m
Integrity is a huge franchise buzzword with the Mets - especially with Fred Wilpon - to the point there is legitimate concern for Carlos Beltrans job at the moment.
For fuck's sake...
I can't believe this is going to happen.
Did Puma really need to tweet that with "Integrity".?
The material writes itself. Do they go back to the 57 other candidates they interviewed? I'll wait until a decision is made but I get the feeling this is going to drag out.
Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
9m
Integrity is a huge franchise buzzword with the Mets - especially with Fred Wilpon - to the point there is legitimate concern for Carlos Beltrans job at the moment.
Madoff, Reyes, Familia, Jeff's sexual harassment... should I go on? lol
Different rules apply to different employee groups. Management employees or those unprotected by the provisions of a CBA or contract always get named in an employment investigation (which this is most similar to).
BS. They included his name because they wanted to bolster their report with someone recognizable and they 'could' by rule. It wasn't 'illegal' but it was unfair to name him as the only player because the rest are 'shielded'. Still call BS.
but FWIW incarceratedbob says Mets have an announcement coming.
I hate when the jackals get their way
and I am one of those people who feel like the manager of a baseball team has a limited impact, but caving to the frothing pitchfork crowd is a brutally weak move.
1h
This is the public perception aspect I was referring to. Im not saying it lasts a week or a month or however long. Im saying if Beltran & the Mets can wear it & they feel the clubhouse can survive it, then maybe they move fwd. IMO the ?s never stop coming.
This all just sucks so much. AC is a great baseball mind. Beltran wasnt getting fed pitches via video as a player and the pedigree of these guys should not be forgotten. You dont fake it for 13 & 19 years in the show. That said, Its just CRAZY to watch this unfold.
Lets consider this:
Does a Beltran resignation & his designation as a PLAYER when this began, void him of any punishment?
A mutually agreed upon split by Cora & SOX could be viewed as Cora putting the Org ahead of himself & a resignation from Beltran could seen similarly.
Given the media obsession with this event, which I find way overblown, I guess the Mets and Beltran do have to ask if they want to deal with it.
Resigning/firing is the easiest path.
So no doubt now that's the path Mets take.
A franchise that has failed to establish a culture and identity for 30 years, trying to emulate or copy what they think the media wants vs making strong in-house decisions, is absolutely going to break here.
Now the question.. who the F manages the Mets on 2020??
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.
If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?
because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.
Anyone who doesn't respect and value Beltran's time as a Mets player automatically loses all credibility.
Anyone bringing up the Cards AB..pathetic.
I mean shit...I seriously don't understand how people can get so mad at this stuff... The vast majority of players we grew up with were cheaters. Every Mets fans favorite turn of the century favorite player was a cheater.
I wonder when all this vitriol will start for all of the other players
that possibly participated/orchestrated the cheating?
Based on the media reaction and these amazingly predictable threads, people should be clamoring for half of the Astros players to resign and walk away from the game, right?
RE: I wonder when all this vitriol will start for all of the other players
that possibly participated/orchestrated the cheating?
Based on the media reaction and these amazingly predictable threads, people should be clamoring for half of the Astros players to resign and walk away from the game, right?
And never be allowed to work in baseball again.
Despite the fact that we have no idea if other teams did this and just didn't get caught
1) Why does Carlos Beltran appear at all in the 7 page report? Joe Torre before the 2018 season started said only managers, upper management and owners would face penalties. No players would face fines, suspensions etc.. That was to get players to talk. So if that is the case why mention his name at all.
A) A little wink wink Mets that you may want to consider getting rid of him.
B) Try to embarrass him for lying to Joel Sherman.
In either case the Mets better be very careful here. Yes they could fire him but on what grounds. MLB said we aren't punishing him. If the Mets fire him he can sue saying I was asked to testify on grounds there would be no punishment.
They should wait. There is no rush to judge him. Get all of the info and then come out and say he is our man. Saying it immediately could make them look foolish as would firing him without all info. They can do their due diligence but at the end of the day, if MLB said testify and nothing will happen to you because you were a player, they shouldn't worry UNLESS
they look at Beltran being an adviser with the Yankees last year as an management position. Cora stated Beltran was their best off-season acquisition and he even winked after the Boston-Yankees series in LDN which seemed to indicate he knew they were stealing signs.
I agree with your points on cheating and I guess lying. That's why I dont dont watch it any more. They are all cheats and liars. Millionaires. I listen on the radio fishing I like the sound.
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.
Anyone who doesn't respect and value Beltran's time as a Mets player automatically loses all credibility.
Anyone bringing up the Cards AB..pathetic.
I mean shit...I seriously don't understand how people can get so mad at this stuff... The vast majority of players we grew up with were cheaters. Every Mets fans favorite turn of the century favorite player was a cheater.
[/quote]
If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?
because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA
He was a player at the time...
That's my take too section.
I can't imagine he wouldn't be protected by the MLBPA for anything that happened when he was a player.
People are too focused on factual arguments pro and con
For the majority of non-NY sports fans and media, the facts are NOT going to matter- the perception does. You never win in the court of public opinion when perception is against you.
The Mets are already in a bad PR position to start with- the Wilpons do not have a good rep outside NY- and have run the team as a mid-market club despite having the NY media market to play in. Fans outside NY are just looking for reasons to bury the Mets and the Wilpons.
We already saw that Yahoo Sports has an article up basically concluding that Beltran had to go. That's just the start.
The Mets are now in a no-win situation. If they quickly fire Beltran, media and others won't care about the timeline showing the cheating scandal broke after he was hired- they will believe that the Mets messed up. If the Mets try and weather the storm, the Mets will become the focus on media and fan ire- and even eventually relenting and firing Beltran won't ease the storm.
IMO, the best-case scenario for the Mets would be for Beltran to resign tomorrow, and face the media to own up to what he did- and try to exonorate the Mets as best he can.
The Red Sox realized that there was no feasible way that they could keep Cora and acted very quickly. The knew the media would be relentless- and they have their own scandal that they will have to own up to. Having a handy scapegoat helps get out from under the scandal.
The Mets need to get Beltran to take the blame, resign, and own this- and move the focus off the team.
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
Fred only cares about PR. He will do his usual leave everyone twisting in the wind routine, dragging it out (which actually always gets him worse PR ironically) before finally either firing him or having Beltran resign. That's Fred through and through.
Yup, a final Wilpon ball-less move to make us all wish for ownership change sooner. Gutless owner. Anyone with some guts has made a statement by now. Fred is always caving to public opinion and always doing it wrong.
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
Do you understand the fundamental why signs are stolen?
Because knowing the pitch greatly increases your odds to get a hit. There is a massive difference between figuring out a sign system and relaying them from second base to having cameras monitor the signs and transmit the data in real time so the batter can be alerted.
If a batter knows the pitch, his job is tremendously easier. He only has to pick a zone and watch the release point and initial trajectory of the ball to see if it will be a strike or not. Off speed pitches lose the element of surprise. Sliders become easy to decipher if they will be in the zone or not. It is not outrageous to say a batter will have a .075 or more advantage in the long run in those situations.
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
Do you understand the fundamental why signs are stolen?
Because knowing the pitch greatly increases your odds to get a hit. There is a massive difference between figuring out a sign system and relaying them from second base to having cameras monitor the signs and transmit the data in real time so the batter can be alerted.
If a batter knows the pitch, his job is tremendously easier. He only has to pick a zone and watch the release point and initial trajectory of the ball to see if it will be a strike or not. Off speed pitches lose the element of surprise. Sliders become easy to decipher if they will be in the zone or not. It is not outrageous to say a batter will have a .075 or more advantage in the long run in those situations.
Yeah I think that's understood...
I'm pretty sure the point was..cheating always has existed, always will. Astros got caught. To think they were the only ones doing it is naive. Seems now we already have whispers that Red Sox and Yankees may have dabbled in a system just by way of having Cora and Beltran.
And release a statement that they are sticking with Beltran.
If they want to, let Beltran issue a token apology and end it there.
If Beltran has to step down, what happens to the ALL of the other Astros players who, at a minimum, knew this was going on but didnt say anything?
I don't think he needs to step down or be fired. But the GM and the owner should get in front of the press and say Beltran knows the current rules, the expectations of the league and organization, and (we're) confident he won't put this opportunity to manage in jeopardy.
If they really like Beltran, there's no need to give the press a pound of flesh (as Shurmur said).
Oh cool... I thought you were saying I was making it up re: Red Sox..
You're just expanding the point... many other teams likely doing this. People gotta chill out and look for the systemic solution, not just make an example out of 1 case and act like it's a rogue actor.
this isn't one case! The Astros system and the Red Sox systems are two separate things.
Are you trying to say that the Red Sox using video to steal signs and pass it along is just a rumor or that they weren't doing it at all?
These aren't "whispers" or hints at "dabbling". It is full-blown cheating and you'll see the extent when Cora gets punished. They are actually discussing a lifetime ban - although I think it will be less harsh than that.
Stealing signs is part of baseball culture and has been going on for over a hundred years.
There were guys who stayed in the big leagues just because they were adept at stealing signs.
Using video and digital technology obviously takes it to a different level. But to me, baseball has been remiss in not updating their policies to keep up with technology. Manfred's sole job is to monitor baseball and it never occurred to him that teams might be stealing signs in this way?
It's like a teacher who discovers their students have been texting all year and then suddenly goes ballistic. Yeah, the students are at fault but so is the teacher. Ditto for Manfred.
RE: RE: Morrison said Yankees and Dodgers did it too
to know the guys who stayed in the league because they were adept at stealing signs.
Not understanding the difference between doing something overtly vs. doing it covertly to an entirely different level is either being willfully ignorant or just being downright stupid.
Logan Morrison is a whiny bitch with an ax to grind
Yes, everyone does that. The issue is using technology to do it in real time, something that not everyone does, and something that all teams were specifically warned to not do by MLB in 2017.
this isn't one case! The Astros system and the Red Sox systems are two separate things.
Are you trying to say that the Red Sox using video to steal signs and pass it along is just a rumor or that they weren't doing it at all?
These aren't "whispers" or hints at "dabbling". It is full-blown cheating and you'll see the extent when Cora gets punished. They are actually discussing a lifetime ban - although I think it will be less harsh than that.
Not sure why you are getting angry at me.. I didn't know the Red Sox events were already fact, I though they were still just rumors.
To me its all the same.. lots of teams probably using technology to steal signs. Astros got caught and they are getting the Bonds/Clemens treatment while other teams skate by and get treated like Piazza and enter the HOF with no issue..
RE: Logan Morrison is a whiny bitch with an ax to grind
without technology is part of the game - it's cat and mouse AND dog.
It's like bluffing in poker, reading the opponent's eyes and other physical body movements and facial experssions.
To me baseball is the one sport that needs less technology... Umps missing a call or having the strike zone expand or shrink based on game day variables is part of the game, providing the calls are consistent for both teams.
Yes, everyone does that. The issue is using technology to do it in real time, something that not everyone does, and something that all teams were specifically warned to not do by MLB in 2017.
I think it's too early to know the degree to which your statement "something that not everyone does" is true... did 1 team do it? 2 teams? 15 teams? 25 teams?
without technology is part of the game - it's cat and mouse AND dog.
It's like bluffing in poker, reading the opponent's eyes and other physical body movements and facial experssions.
To me baseball is the one sport that needs less technology... Umps missing a call or having the strike zone expand or shrink based on game day variables is part of the game, providing the calls are consistent for both teams.
That's a really good analogy. Imagine the difference between reading a bluff and having video showing a player's hole cards. There's actually a case right now of a guy in the Bay Area using video to see opponents hole cards and he's been banned for life from a whole slew of casinos and he's facing criminal charges.
Link - ( New Window )
Seriously though, Beltran was not punished by MLB, but needs to be punished by the Mets, who had nothing to do with the 2017 Astros?
For those calling for Beltran to be fired, do you also want suspensions for all players involved? Where does it end?
Again, there was no punishment levied by Major League Baseball.
If he does something similar with the Mets....then all bets are off....but the punishment is pretty steep and my feeling is that nothing this overt will be done again.
If MLB is worried about signs being stolen....then put headsets on the Manager's head and a small speaker in the pitcher's hat so a sign can be given without the catcher.
The catcher could also have the speaker so he will know how to position himself for the pitch.
Looks like he's trying to alienate Mets fans as well as he does it for Yankee fans!
Looks like he's trying to alienate Mets fans as well as he does it for Yankee fans!
If this is his take on Beltran, what did he do when Pineda took a bath in pine tar before taking the mound a few years back? Did he call for a public execution?
Does anyone who was on the Astros from 2017-2019 need to be banned from baseball?
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as always with the fair and balanced take.
Looks like he's trying to alienate Mets fans as well as he does it for Yankee fans!
If this is his take on Beltran, what did he do when Pineda took a bath in pine tar before taking the mound a few years back? Did he call for a public execution?
No. He blamed Cashman and ownership...
Does anyone who was on the Astros from 2017-2019 need to be banned from baseball?
Metsnut, that is my point as well. Where will it end? The only reason Beltran is being mentioned now is because he is no longer a player and protected by the union.
I keep seeing this "mastermind" phrase being thrown around. If he was indeed played that role, then why did MLB suspend Hinch/Lunhow and are about to come down on Cora? But the real "mastermind" gets away scott free? Come on, you guys can't really believe that, right?
By the way, is there an actual article or report out there that calls Beltran the ring leader in this?
Absolutely ZERO evidence he was "one of the masterminds". Thanks though. He was mentioned ONCE in the report. Cora... 11 times.
Beltran's name was mentioned once
Randal blames Cashman when his car gets a flat tire.
It's highly possible this never came up in any Mets interviews.
When 4 people agree on something within seconds on BBI - it is a cold, hard fact!
1 GM and 2 managers across 2 different franchises, 4 draft picks and $5 million in fines.
What more could anyone possibly want?
From what I've read MLB has instructed people not to discuss it (at least it sounds that way).
I would expect MLB to put out a statement explaining the lack of player punishment (including Beltran) though I think we all can understand why they aren't disciplining the players.
and I think MLB is probably waiting for the Red Sox investigation to wrap before releasing that statement.
Punishing players is problematic because of the MLBPA. You would have to punish all the players including former Astros players (and who knows, maybe Red Sox players), who in any way benefited or knew about it and then you have large amounts of players facing disciplinary action of some type and the MLBPA would appeal and the rules were sketchy in 2017 and from the MLB perspective it would likely throw gas on a simmering fire.
Punishing only those in authority probably makes the most sense for MLB.
IMO, it all depends on if he lied to Mets ownership during the interview process?
I would have to imagine he didn't which could explain why Beltran knew he had protection and refused to interview with other teams.
Quite honestly I could give a f*** about him lying to the NY media. Most of those people (specifically beat writers) are liars in their own right
If he comes out and issues a formally apology and confirms Mets management already had knowledge then hit him with a fine for a charitable cause and lets move on.
I presume that the answer is "no" given that he was a player in the known incidents, and I'm perfectly OK with that.
But the Mets deserve the clarity, and the opportunity to get on with their business as planned, or adjust accordingly.
thanks, I didn't know that. I read early on that Beltran spoke with MLB and was very forthcoming and cooperative. Didn't know they got immunity.
If true, what's the noise about?
punishing players who have moved on, has rippling impacts of this that would punish unintended targets, I doubt mlb wants that anyway.
So? Everybody lies to the press. Often times, the press lies, too. Who cares? Nothing will happen, that's what I think.
I think Beltran would be best served just addressing it head on, apologizing for the part he played, saying he learned his lesson and moving on (if he hasn't done so already). The fans have a relatively short memory, I doubt it lingers for very long.
If it's a scenario like the Giants have with Golden Tate, where discipline against him in 2019 means part of his contract is voided and they can move on without the financial liability, then I think they fire him.
From what it sounds like, he won't get disciplined. So unless they have some type of mutual agreement where he leaves and only collects a small % of his salary, I don't think he is fired.
I don't have a feel one way or another for what is going to happen. My guess it comes down to whether or not Beltran was honest with them. If he at any point lied to them about something with this then I would guess he probably won't last.
Fire him!
I don't think this is as definitive as you purport. There are a lot of factors that were stated in this thread that does not make this an easy decision. Everyone knows the Mets operate with an eye towards money. This is likely a complicated decision based on the impending sale to Cohen. Perhaps they already spoke to Carlos and he is aware of his fate?
I remember The Boss being kicked out of baseball for a few years and i'd prefer the heaviest sanctions come down on the owners who by proxy facilitated the cheating. You hit the owners in the mouth and you can be sure they won't leave anyone involved unflayed.
Obviously that is motivated by $$$ because baseball does not want to ban guys like Altuve and Springer for a year. Also what about guys like Cole who had to know about it even though they were not direct participants?Is that fair?
Probably not. But it is a clear cut criterion and that in itself is a virtue.
Since Beltran was a player at the time, he avoids a penalty. For the Mets to penalize him, would completely muddy the waters.
People cheat... some of them just got caught.
Now chill out and move on... and wait for the next round of cheaters to get caught..
Obviously that is motivated by $$$ because baseball does not want to ban guys like Altuve and Springer for a year. Also what about guys like Cole who had to know about it even though they were not direct participants?Is that fair?
Probably not. But it is a clear cut criterion and that in itself is a virtue.
Since Beltran was a player at the time, he avoids a penalty. For the Mets to penalize him, would completely muddy the waters.
You bring up a great point.
Should any member of the Astros over that time span face penalty for not speaking up about what they surely knew was going on?
I would end this thing right where it is, but its a reasonable question to ask.
Jarrett Seidler
@jaseidler
3m
Heres what the Mets currently have as an analytics department according to their own website: Guttridge as AGM, a baseball systems and development manager, and ONE research analyst. One.
Not every team lists every contractor and intern and such. But still.
because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA
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If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?
because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA
I'm not so sure about that as you're talking about penalizing him for something that happened when he was a player. I would think he'd fall under their protection in that instance.
Now if they have something on him he did after playing that's a different story.
I was not in the interviews obviously, but I would not be surprised if this topic never came up while Beltran weas interviewing with the Mets, so I doubt he lied or misled the Mets on this topic.
Bleacher Report references this video saying Mets are starting to waver on their decision to hire Beltran.
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I've changed my mind on what I think they will do. My guess is now they will fire him.
My Tio Carlos is stepping down as Mets manager <span class="emoji-outer emoji-sizer"><span class="emoji-inner" style="background: url(chrome-extension://immhpnclomdloikkpcefncmfgjbkojmh/emoji-data/sheet_apple_32.png);background-position:61.98589894242068% 24.030552291421856%;background-size:5418.75% 5418.75%" data-codepoints="1f622"></span></span>
2:11pm 15 Jan 2020
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QT
@S0_blessed1
No Autographs! Simple girl in a difficult city. Texas Longhorns🤘🏼Alum : Struggling med student - My favorite Uncle @Carlosbeltran15 ❤️
Joined Mar 2017
Bleacher Report references this video saying Mets are starting to waver on their decision to hire Beltran. Link - ( New Window )
The funny thing is I have seen so many Yankee fan announcers or ex-players such as Teixeira and Sabathia come out and say the Yankees were robbed and the Mets should fire Beltran and yet where was Beltran last season? With the Yankees and Cora had no issue saying without saying Beltran is their biggest asset (wink wink). I don't think the Yankees were totally innocent as I don't think the Res Sox and Astros are the only teams doing this.
If he came clean with them, and they felt comfortable regardless, they shouldnt now try to curry favor with MLB and writers and fire their manager, who was not disciplined by MLB.
If they didnt ask him about this, then Brodie should be fired today. But my general opinion is that the blame for this is on management with the Astros. They got the directives from MLB - including the one after the Apple Watch deal in 2017, not the players.
Beltran would be in a whole different situation had he done anything along these lines as management in 2018, I think.
Wilpons will probably fire him despite him previously disclosing to them, just because they are weak, weak men.
I was not in the interviews obviously, but I would not be surprised if this topic never came up while Beltran weas interviewing with the Mets, so I doubt he lied or misled the Mets on this topic.
Well, its possible that industry scuttlebutt had this on the radar before the Fiers article, in which case they asked him. However, even the Mets would have had to call him up immediately after the Fiers article and ask him to divulge his role.
Mets will can him if 1) he lied to them during the interview process or after the story broke or 2) they feel like the press will call them out as bad people if they retain him.
I think 2 is more likely. Would not surprise me for Beltran to resign under pretense of sparing the team from controversy.
Either way, typical Wilpon bullshit that the team is thus far silent. They cant leave soon enough due to their unique combo of cheapness, weakness, and desire to pander to Selig or Manfred. No juevos in our ownership group at all.
They fired a pregnant, single mom because she wasn't married.
They nominated previously suspended for DV, Jose Reyes, for the Marvin Miller award.
They were complicit (or just really fortunate if you're naive) in Madoff
I'm sure there is more, but this isn't exactly a zero tolerance business.
I seriously doubt they fire Beltran because he lied or wasn't forthcoming.
PR pressure or money are reasons I'd believe, maybe.
I really hope they don't fire him based on media backlash.
Well both the Astros and Red Sox are in the same boat and one would think those would be more attractive destinations for someone who would want to win now.
Carlos Beltrn, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams signs
and communicating the signs to the batter.
So the team had devised a cheating method. They were cheating. Then Beltran and other players, who should also be named BTW as it's unfair to list only Beltran imo, improved the method of relaying the information to the field. Are the others being shielded because they are still active on the field? That's BS.
That doesn't seem to me to warrant being suspended/fined by MLB if no one else was or fired by the Mets. IMO.
I really hope they don't fire him based on media backlash.
I read MLB issued a "gag order" on this topic, so if true, I doubt they can issue a statement.
my guess is mlb is waiting for the Red Sox investigation to be wrapped up and then put this whole thing to bed.
Does anyone who was on the Astros from 2017-2019 need to be banned from baseball?
Could not agree more.
Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
9m
Integrity is a huge franchise buzzword with the Mets - especially with Fred Wilpon - to the point there is legitimate concern for Carlos Beltrans job at the moment.
Carlos Beltrn, discussed that the team could improve on decoding opposing teams signs
and communicating the signs to the batter.
So the team had devised a cheating method. They were cheating. Then Beltran and other players, who should also be named BTW as it's unfair to list only Beltran imo, improved the method of relaying the information to the field. Are the others being shielded because they are still active on the field? That's BS.
That doesn't seem to me to warrant being suspended/fined by MLB if no one else was or fired by the Mets. IMO.
They named him because the other players are still active and protected by the CBA and the MLBPA. Beltran is not.
Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
9m
Integrity is a huge franchise buzzword with the Mets - especially with Fred Wilpon - to the point there is legitimate concern for Carlos Beltrans job at the moment.
For fuck's sake...
I can't believe this is going to happen.
Linky - ( New Window )
Mike Puma
@NYPost_Mets
9m
Integrity is a huge franchise buzzword with the Mets - especially with Fred Wilpon - to the point there is legitimate concern for Carlos Beltrans job at the moment.
Madoff, Reyes, Familia, Jeff's sexual harassment... should I go on? lol
MLB doesn't want to get into a protracted battle with the MLBPA - Beltran isn't an active player, so easier to punish
Different rules apply to different employee groups. Management employees or those unprotected by the provisions of a CBA or contract always get named in an employment investigation (which this is most similar to).
IB 🔌
@incarceratedbob
4m
Source: Mets have an announcement on it's way
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Beltran was a player when this occurred. If he gets punished shouldn't the other 23 players they claim were involved be punished also?
MLB doesn't want to get into a protracted battle with the MLBPA - Beltran isn't an active player, so easier to punish
And his being fired isn't a league punishment (nor are the firings of Cora and Hinch, for that matter).
I hate when the jackals get their way
and I am one of those people who feel like the manager of a baseball team has a limited impact, but caving to the frothing pitchfork crowd is a brutally weak move.
Sad
One tweet I saw from someone that claims Beltran is her uncle is that he is stepping down from the Mets manager position.
@DALLASBRADEN209
1h
This is the public perception aspect I was referring to. Im not saying it lasts a week or a month or however long. Im saying if Beltran & the Mets can wear it & they feel the clubhouse can survive it, then maybe they move fwd. IMO the ?s never stop coming.
This all just sucks so much. AC is a great baseball mind. Beltran wasnt getting fed pitches via video as a player and the pedigree of these guys should not be forgotten. You dont fake it for 13 & 19 years in the show. That said, Its just CRAZY to watch this unfold.
Lets consider this:
Does a Beltran resignation & his designation as a PLAYER when this began, void him of any punishment?
A mutually agreed upon split by Cora & SOX could be viewed as Cora putting the Org ahead of himself & a resignation from Beltran could seen similarly.
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Kills my excitement for the season.
Resigning/firing is the easiest path.
So no doubt now that's the path Mets take.
A franchise that has failed to establish a culture and identity for 30 years, trying to emulate or copy what they think the media wants vs making strong in-house decisions, is absolutely going to break here.
Now the question.. who the F manages the Mets on 2020??
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If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?
because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA
He was a player at the time...
Anyone who doesn't respect and value Beltran's time as a Mets player automatically loses all credibility.
Anyone bringing up the Cards AB..pathetic.
I mean shit...I seriously don't understand how people can get so mad at this stuff... The vast majority of players we grew up with were cheaters. Every Mets fans favorite turn of the century favorite player was a cheater.
Based on the media reaction and these amazingly predictable threads, people should be clamoring for half of the Astros players to resign and walk away from the game, right?
Based on the media reaction and these amazingly predictable threads, people should be clamoring for half of the Astros players to resign and walk away from the game, right?
And never be allowed to work in baseball again.
Despite the fact that we have no idea if other teams did this and just didn't get caught
1) Why does Carlos Beltran appear at all in the 7 page report? Joe Torre before the 2018 season started said only managers, upper management and owners would face penalties. No players would face fines, suspensions etc.. That was to get players to talk. So if that is the case why mention his name at all.
A) A little wink wink Mets that you may want to consider getting rid of him.
B) Try to embarrass him for lying to Joel Sherman.
In either case the Mets better be very careful here. Yes they could fire him but on what grounds. MLB said we aren't punishing him. If the Mets fire him he can sue saying I was asked to testify on grounds there would be no punishment.
They should wait. There is no rush to judge him. Get all of the info and then come out and say he is our man. Saying it immediately could make them look foolish as would firing him without all info. They can do their due diligence but at the end of the day, if MLB said testify and nothing will happen to you because you were a player, they shouldn't worry UNLESS
they look at Beltran being an adviser with the Yankees last year as an management position. Cora stated Beltran was their best off-season acquisition and he even winked after the Boston-Yankees series in LDN which seemed to indicate he knew they were stealing signs.
If they want to, let Beltran issue a token apology and end it there.
If Beltran has to step down, what happens to the ALL of the other Astros players who, at a minimum, knew this was going on but didnt say anything?
I agree with your points on cheating and I guess lying. That's why I dont dont watch it any more. They are all cheats and liars. Millionaires. I listen on the radio fishing I like the sound.
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.
Anyone who doesn't respect and value Beltran's time as a Mets player automatically loses all credibility.
Anyone bringing up the Cards AB..pathetic.
I mean shit...I seriously don't understand how people can get so mad at this stuff... The vast majority of players we grew up with were cheaters. Every Mets fans favorite turn of the century favorite player was a cheater.
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In comment 14780102 Rflairr said:
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If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?
because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA
He was a player at the time...
That's my take too section.
I can't imagine he wouldn't be protected by the MLBPA for anything that happened when he was a player.
The Mets are already in a bad PR position to start with- the Wilpons do not have a good rep outside NY- and have run the team as a mid-market club despite having the NY media market to play in. Fans outside NY are just looking for reasons to bury the Mets and the Wilpons.
We already saw that Yahoo Sports has an article up basically concluding that Beltran had to go. That's just the start.
The Mets are now in a no-win situation. If they quickly fire Beltran, media and others won't care about the timeline showing the cheating scandal broke after he was hired- they will believe that the Mets messed up. If the Mets try and weather the storm, the Mets will become the focus on media and fan ire- and even eventually relenting and firing Beltran won't ease the storm.
IMO, the best-case scenario for the Mets would be for Beltran to resign tomorrow, and face the media to own up to what he did- and try to exonorate the Mets as best he can.
The Red Sox realized that there was no feasible way that they could keep Cora and acted very quickly. The knew the media would be relentless- and they have their own scandal that they will have to own up to. Having a handy scapegoat helps get out from under the scandal.
The Mets need to get Beltran to take the blame, resign, and own this- and move the focus off the team.
Yup, a final Wilpon ball-less move to make us all wish for ownership change sooner. Gutless owner. Anyone with some guts has made a statement by now. Fred is always caving to public opinion and always doing it wrong.
Cant wait until his family is done with the Mets.
Exactly!!
Do you understand the fundamental why signs are stolen?
Because knowing the pitch greatly increases your odds to get a hit. There is a massive difference between figuring out a sign system and relaying them from second base to having cameras monitor the signs and transmit the data in real time so the batter can be alerted.
If a batter knows the pitch, his job is tremendously easier. He only has to pick a zone and watch the release point and initial trajectory of the ball to see if it will be a strike or not. Off speed pitches lose the element of surprise. Sliders become easy to decipher if they will be in the zone or not. It is not outrageous to say a batter will have a .075 or more advantage in the long run in those situations.
only loser i see is this rolyrock fuck
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Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
Do you understand the fundamental why signs are stolen?
Because knowing the pitch greatly increases your odds to get a hit. There is a massive difference between figuring out a sign system and relaying them from second base to having cameras monitor the signs and transmit the data in real time so the batter can be alerted.
If a batter knows the pitch, his job is tremendously easier. He only has to pick a zone and watch the release point and initial trajectory of the ball to see if it will be a strike or not. Off speed pitches lose the element of surprise. Sliders become easy to decipher if they will be in the zone or not. It is not outrageous to say a batter will have a .075 or more advantage in the long run in those situations.
Yeah I think that's understood...
I'm pretty sure the point was..cheating always has existed, always will. Astros got caught. To think they were the only ones doing it is naive. Seems now we already have whispers that Red Sox and Yankees may have dabbled in a system just by way of having Cora and Beltran.
Are you fucking kidding?
If they want to, let Beltran issue a token apology and end it there.
If Beltran has to step down, what happens to the ALL of the other Astros players who, at a minimum, knew this was going on but didnt say anything?
I don't think he needs to step down or be fired. But the GM and the owner should get in front of the press and say Beltran knows the current rules, the expectations of the league and organization, and (we're) confident he won't put this opportunity to manage in jeopardy.
If they really like Beltran, there's no need to give the press a pound of flesh (as Shurmur said).
Are you fucking kidding?
Nope
I mean maybe semantic issues with my choice of words... Suspicion?
Is that semantical?
Is that semantical?
Oh cool... I thought you were saying I was making it up re: Red Sox..
You're just expanding the point... many other teams likely doing this. People gotta chill out and look for the systemic solution, not just make an example out of 1 case and act like it's a rogue actor.
Are you trying to say that the Red Sox using video to steal signs and pass it along is just a rumor or that they weren't doing it at all?
These aren't "whispers" or hints at "dabbling". It is full-blown cheating and you'll see the extent when Cora gets punished. They are actually discussing a lifetime ban - although I think it will be less harsh than that.
Maybe he just doesn't like Big Money teams. Possible I guess. But where there is smoke there is usually fire.
Maybe he just doesn't like Big Money teams. Possible I guess. But where there is smoke there is usually fire.
Is there a link to support this?
There were guys who stayed in the big leagues just because they were adept at stealing signs.
Using video and digital technology obviously takes it to a different level. But to me, baseball has been remiss in not updating their policies to keep up with technology. Manfred's sole job is to monitor baseball and it never occurred to him that teams might be stealing signs in this way?
It's like a teacher who discovers their students have been texting all year and then suddenly goes ballistic. Yeah, the students are at fault but so is the teacher. Ditto for Manfred.
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Both teams have been playing the victim when it comes to the Astros, but why would Morrison include them if it were not true?
Maybe he just doesn't like Big Money teams. Possible I guess. But where there is smoke there is usually fire.
Is there a link to support this?
It's on Morrison's twitter. Just google Logan Morrison cheating
Not understanding the difference between doing something overtly vs. doing it covertly to an entirely different level is either being willfully ignorant or just being downright stupid.
Are you trying to say that the Red Sox using video to steal signs and pass it along is just a rumor or that they weren't doing it at all?
These aren't "whispers" or hints at "dabbling". It is full-blown cheating and you'll see the extent when Cora gets punished. They are actually discussing a lifetime ban - although I think it will be less harsh than that.
Not sure why you are getting angry at me.. I didn't know the Red Sox events were already fact, I though they were still just rumors.
To me its all the same.. lots of teams probably using technology to steal signs. Astros got caught and they are getting the Bonds/Clemens treatment while other teams skate by and get treated like Piazza and enter the HOF with no issue..
Yup, that's was exactly my take when I heard he had made those comments.
It's like bluffing in poker, reading the opponent's eyes and other physical body movements and facial experssions.
To me baseball is the one sport that needs less technology... Umps missing a call or having the strike zone expand or shrink based on game day variables is part of the game, providing the calls are consistent for both teams.
I think it's too early to know the degree to which your statement "something that not everyone does" is true... did 1 team do it? 2 teams? 15 teams? 25 teams?
We might never know.
It's like bluffing in poker, reading the opponent's eyes and other physical body movements and facial experssions.
To me baseball is the one sport that needs less technology... Umps missing a call or having the strike zone expand or shrink based on game day variables is part of the game, providing the calls are consistent for both teams.
That's a really good analogy. Imagine the difference between reading a bluff and having video showing a player's hole cards. There's actually a case right now of a guy in the Bay Area using video to see opponents hole cards and he's been banned for life from a whole slew of casinos and he's facing criminal charges.