1) Why does Carlos Beltran appear at all in the 7 page report? Joe Torre before the 2018 season started said only managers, upper management and owners would face penalties. No players would face fines, suspensions etc.. That was to get players to talk. So if that is the case why mention his name at all.
A) A little wink wink Mets that you may want to consider getting rid of him.
B) Try to embarrass him for lying to Joel Sherman.
In either case the Mets better be very careful here. Yes they could fire him but on what grounds. MLB said we aren't punishing him. If the Mets fire him he can sue saying I was asked to testify on grounds there would be no punishment.
They should wait. There is no rush to judge him. Get all of the info and then come out and say he is our man. Saying it immediately could make them look foolish as would firing him without all info. They can do their due diligence but at the end of the day, if MLB said testify and nothing will happen to you because you were a player, they shouldn't worry UNLESS
they look at Beltran being an adviser with the Yankees last year as an management position. Cora stated Beltran was their best off-season acquisition and he even winked after the Boston-Yankees series in LDN which seemed to indicate he knew they were stealing signs.
I agree with your points on cheating and I guess lying. That's why I dont dont watch it any more. They are all cheats and liars. Millionaires. I listen on the radio fishing I like the sound.
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.
Anyone who doesn't respect and value Beltran's time as a Mets player automatically loses all credibility.
Anyone bringing up the Cards AB..pathetic.
I mean shit...I seriously don't understand how people can get so mad at this stuff... The vast majority of players we grew up with were cheaters. Every Mets fans favorite turn of the century favorite player was a cheater.
[/quote]
If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?
because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA
He was a player at the time...
That's my take too section.
I can't imagine he wouldn't be protected by the MLBPA for anything that happened when he was a player.
People are too focused on factual arguments pro and con Â
For the majority of non-NY sports fans and media, the facts are NOT going to matter- the perception does. You never win in the court of public opinion when perception is against you.
The Mets are already in a bad PR position to start with- the Wilpons do not have a good rep outside NY- and have run the team as a mid-market club despite having the NY media market to play in. Fans outside NY are just looking for reasons to bury the Mets and the Wilpons.
We already saw that Yahoo Sports has an article up basically concluding that Beltran had to go. That's just the start.
The Mets are now in a no-win situation. If they quickly fire Beltran, media and others won't care about the timeline showing the cheating scandal broke after he was hired- they will believe that the Mets messed up. If the Mets try and weather the storm, the Mets will become the focus on media and fan ire- and even eventually relenting and firing Beltran won't ease the storm.
IMO, the best-case scenario for the Mets would be for Beltran to resign tomorrow, and face the media to own up to what he did- and try to exonorate the Mets as best he can.
The Red Sox realized that there was no feasible way that they could keep Cora and acted very quickly. The knew the media would be relentless- and they have their own scandal that they will have to own up to. Having a handy scapegoat helps get out from under the scandal.
The Mets need to get Beltran to take the blame, resign, and own this- and move the focus off the team.
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
Fred only cares about PR. He will do his usual leave everyone twisting in the wind routine, dragging it out (which actually always gets him worse PR ironically) before finally either firing him or having Beltran resign. That's Fred through and through.
Yup, a final Wilpon ball-less move to make us all wish for ownership change sooner. Gutless owner. Anyone with some guts has made a statement by now. Fred is always caving to public opinion and always doing it wrong.
Can’t wait until his family is done with the Mets.
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
Do you understand the fundamental why signs are stolen?
Because knowing the pitch greatly increases your odds to get a hit. There is a massive difference between figuring out a sign system and relaying them from second base to having cameras monitor the signs and transmit the data in real time so the batter can be alerted.
If a batter knows the pitch, his job is tremendously easier. He only has to pick a zone and watch the release point and initial trajectory of the ball to see if it will be a strike or not. Off speed pitches lose the element of surprise. Sliders become easy to decipher if they will be in the zone or not. It is not outrageous to say a batter will have a .075 or more advantage in the long run in those situations.
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.
only loser i see is this rolyrock fuck
RE: RE: Stealing signs is a hundred years old.... Â
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
Do you understand the fundamental why signs are stolen?
Because knowing the pitch greatly increases your odds to get a hit. There is a massive difference between figuring out a sign system and relaying them from second base to having cameras monitor the signs and transmit the data in real time so the batter can be alerted.
If a batter knows the pitch, his job is tremendously easier. He only has to pick a zone and watch the release point and initial trajectory of the ball to see if it will be a strike or not. Off speed pitches lose the element of surprise. Sliders become easy to decipher if they will be in the zone or not. It is not outrageous to say a batter will have a .075 or more advantage in the long run in those situations.
Yeah I think that's understood...
I'm pretty sure the point was..cheating always has existed, always will. Astros got caught. To think they were the only ones doing it is naive. Seems now we already have whispers that Red Sox and Yankees may have dabbled in a system just by way of having Cora and Beltran.
And release a statement that they are sticking with Beltran.
If they want to, let Beltran issue a token apology and end it there.
If Beltran has to step down, what happens to the ALL of the other Astros players who, at a minimum, knew this was going on but didn’t say anything?
I don't think he needs to step down or be fired. But the GM and the owner should get in front of the press and say Beltran knows the current rules, the expectations of the league and organization, and (we're) confident he won't put this opportunity to manage in jeopardy.
If they really like Beltran, there's no need to give the press a pound of flesh (as Shurmur said).
Oh cool... I thought you were saying I was making it up re: Red Sox..
You're just expanding the point... many other teams likely doing this. People gotta chill out and look for the systemic solution, not just make an example out of 1 case and act like it's a rogue actor.
this isn't one case! The Astros system and the Red Sox systems are two separate things.
Are you trying to say that the Red Sox using video to steal signs and pass it along is just a rumor or that they weren't doing it at all?
These aren't "whispers" or hints at "dabbling". It is full-blown cheating and you'll see the extent when Cora gets punished. They are actually discussing a lifetime ban - although I think it will be less harsh than that.
Stealing signs is part of baseball culture and has been going on for over a hundred years.
There were guys who stayed in the big leagues just because they were adept at stealing signs.
Using video and digital technology obviously takes it to a different level. But to me, baseball has been remiss in not updating their policies to keep up with technology. Manfred's sole job is to monitor baseball and it never occurred to him that teams might be stealing signs in this way?
It's like a teacher who discovers their students have been texting all year and then suddenly goes ballistic. Yeah, the students are at fault but so is the teacher. Ditto for Manfred.
RE: RE: Morrison said Yankees and Dodgers did it too Â
to know the guys who stayed in the league because they were adept at stealing signs.
Not understanding the difference between doing something overtly vs. doing it covertly to an entirely different level is either being willfully ignorant or just being downright stupid.
Logan Morrison is a whiny bitch with an ax to grind Â
Yes, everyone does that. The issue is using technology to do it in real time, something that not everyone does, and something that all teams were specifically warned to not do by MLB in 2017.
this isn't one case! The Astros system and the Red Sox systems are two separate things.
Are you trying to say that the Red Sox using video to steal signs and pass it along is just a rumor or that they weren't doing it at all?
These aren't "whispers" or hints at "dabbling". It is full-blown cheating and you'll see the extent when Cora gets punished. They are actually discussing a lifetime ban - although I think it will be less harsh than that.
Not sure why you are getting angry at me.. I didn't know the Red Sox events were already fact, I though they were still just rumors.
To me its all the same.. lots of teams probably using technology to steal signs. Astros got caught and they are getting the Bonds/Clemens treatment while other teams skate by and get treated like Piazza and enter the HOF with no issue..
RE: Logan Morrison is a whiny bitch with an ax to grind Â
without technology is part of the game - it's cat and mouse AND dog.
It's like bluffing in poker, reading the opponent's eyes and other physical body movements and facial experssions.
To me baseball is the one sport that needs less technology... Umps missing a call or having the strike zone expand or shrink based on game day variables is part of the game, providing the calls are consistent for both teams.
Yes, everyone does that. The issue is using technology to do it in real time, something that not everyone does, and something that all teams were specifically warned to not do by MLB in 2017.
I think it's too early to know the degree to which your statement "something that not everyone does" is true... did 1 team do it? 2 teams? 15 teams? 25 teams?
without technology is part of the game - it's cat and mouse AND dog.
It's like bluffing in poker, reading the opponent's eyes and other physical body movements and facial experssions.
To me baseball is the one sport that needs less technology... Umps missing a call or having the strike zone expand or shrink based on game day variables is part of the game, providing the calls are consistent for both teams.
That's a really good analogy. Imagine the difference between reading a bluff and having video showing a player's hole cards. There's actually a case right now of a guy in the Bay Area using video to see opponents hole cards and he's been banned for life from a whole slew of casinos and he's facing criminal charges.
1) Why does Carlos Beltran appear at all in the 7 page report? Joe Torre before the 2018 season started said only managers, upper management and owners would face penalties. No players would face fines, suspensions etc.. That was to get players to talk. So if that is the case why mention his name at all.
A) A little wink wink Mets that you may want to consider getting rid of him.
B) Try to embarrass him for lying to Joel Sherman.
In either case the Mets better be very careful here. Yes they could fire him but on what grounds. MLB said we aren't punishing him. If the Mets fire him he can sue saying I was asked to testify on grounds there would be no punishment.
They should wait. There is no rush to judge him. Get all of the info and then come out and say he is our man. Saying it immediately could make them look foolish as would firing him without all info. They can do their due diligence but at the end of the day, if MLB said testify and nothing will happen to you because you were a player, they shouldn't worry UNLESS
they look at Beltran being an adviser with the Yankees last year as an management position. Cora stated Beltran was their best off-season acquisition and he even winked after the Boston-Yankees series in LDN which seemed to indicate he knew they were stealing signs.
If they want to, let Beltran issue a token apology and end it there.
If Beltran has to step down, what happens to the ALL of the other Astros players who, at a minimum, knew this was going on but didn’t say anything?
I agree with your points on cheating and I guess lying. That's why I dont dont watch it any more. They are all cheats and liars. Millionaires. I listen on the radio fishing I like the sound.
The face of the franchise. He is a BIG cheat and liar. He never won with the Mets. He struck out in the biggest moments making a zillion dollars. He is a sour puss loser who had to cheat to win in the world series with another team. That's how the rest of baseball fandom sees him. But hey the Wilpons are losers, happy to play on fan loyalty to make profits with no chance to win world series. So mybe a good match. Pathetic.
Anyone who doesn't respect and value Beltran's time as a Mets player automatically loses all credibility.
Anyone bringing up the Cards AB..pathetic.
I mean shit...I seriously don't understand how people can get so mad at this stuff... The vast majority of players we grew up with were cheaters. Every Mets fans favorite turn of the century favorite player was a cheater.
[/quote]
Quote:
In comment 14780102 Rflairr said:
Quote:
If None of the Astros players are being punished. Why should he?
because he is no longer a player and cannot be protected by the Players union. So he can be disciplined if MLB so chooses without a fight form the MLBPA
He was a player at the time...
That's my take too section.
I can't imagine he wouldn't be protected by the MLBPA for anything that happened when he was a player.
The Mets are already in a bad PR position to start with- the Wilpons do not have a good rep outside NY- and have run the team as a mid-market club despite having the NY media market to play in. Fans outside NY are just looking for reasons to bury the Mets and the Wilpons.
We already saw that Yahoo Sports has an article up basically concluding that Beltran had to go. That's just the start.
The Mets are now in a no-win situation. If they quickly fire Beltran, media and others won't care about the timeline showing the cheating scandal broke after he was hired- they will believe that the Mets messed up. If the Mets try and weather the storm, the Mets will become the focus on media and fan ire- and even eventually relenting and firing Beltran won't ease the storm.
IMO, the best-case scenario for the Mets would be for Beltran to resign tomorrow, and face the media to own up to what he did- and try to exonorate the Mets as best he can.
The Red Sox realized that there was no feasible way that they could keep Cora and acted very quickly. The knew the media would be relentless- and they have their own scandal that they will have to own up to. Having a handy scapegoat helps get out from under the scandal.
The Mets need to get Beltran to take the blame, resign, and own this- and move the focus off the team.
Yup, a final Wilpon ball-less move to make us all wish for ownership change sooner. Gutless owner. Anyone with some guts has made a statement by now. Fred is always caving to public opinion and always doing it wrong.
Can’t wait until his family is done with the Mets.
Exactly!!
Do you understand the fundamental why signs are stolen?
Because knowing the pitch greatly increases your odds to get a hit. There is a massive difference between figuring out a sign system and relaying them from second base to having cameras monitor the signs and transmit the data in real time so the batter can be alerted.
If a batter knows the pitch, his job is tremendously easier. He only has to pick a zone and watch the release point and initial trajectory of the ball to see if it will be a strike or not. Off speed pitches lose the element of surprise. Sliders become easy to decipher if they will be in the zone or not. It is not outrageous to say a batter will have a .075 or more advantage in the long run in those situations.
only loser i see is this rolyrock fuck
Quote:
Way to stay relevant baseball. I suppose it needs to be enforced with the technology available, but the outrage is nauseating. Every team has a system. I mean is how naive is our culture.
Do you understand the fundamental why signs are stolen?
Because knowing the pitch greatly increases your odds to get a hit. There is a massive difference between figuring out a sign system and relaying them from second base to having cameras monitor the signs and transmit the data in real time so the batter can be alerted.
If a batter knows the pitch, his job is tremendously easier. He only has to pick a zone and watch the release point and initial trajectory of the ball to see if it will be a strike or not. Off speed pitches lose the element of surprise. Sliders become easy to decipher if they will be in the zone or not. It is not outrageous to say a batter will have a .075 or more advantage in the long run in those situations.
Yeah I think that's understood...
I'm pretty sure the point was..cheating always has existed, always will. Astros got caught. To think they were the only ones doing it is naive. Seems now we already have whispers that Red Sox and Yankees may have dabbled in a system just by way of having Cora and Beltran.
Are you fucking kidding?
If they want to, let Beltran issue a token apology and end it there.
If Beltran has to step down, what happens to the ALL of the other Astros players who, at a minimum, knew this was going on but didn’t say anything?
I don't think he needs to step down or be fired. But the GM and the owner should get in front of the press and say Beltran knows the current rules, the expectations of the league and organization, and (we're) confident he won't put this opportunity to manage in jeopardy.
If they really like Beltran, there's no need to give the press a pound of flesh (as Shurmur said).
Are you fucking kidding?
Nope
I mean maybe semantic issues with my choice of words... Suspicion?
Is that semantical?
Is that semantical?
Oh cool... I thought you were saying I was making it up re: Red Sox..
You're just expanding the point... many other teams likely doing this. People gotta chill out and look for the systemic solution, not just make an example out of 1 case and act like it's a rogue actor.
Are you trying to say that the Red Sox using video to steal signs and pass it along is just a rumor or that they weren't doing it at all?
These aren't "whispers" or hints at "dabbling". It is full-blown cheating and you'll see the extent when Cora gets punished. They are actually discussing a lifetime ban - although I think it will be less harsh than that.
Maybe he just doesn't like Big Money teams. Possible I guess. But where there is smoke there is usually fire.
Maybe he just doesn't like Big Money teams. Possible I guess. But where there is smoke there is usually fire.
Is there a link to support this?
There were guys who stayed in the big leagues just because they were adept at stealing signs.
Using video and digital technology obviously takes it to a different level. But to me, baseball has been remiss in not updating their policies to keep up with technology. Manfred's sole job is to monitor baseball and it never occurred to him that teams might be stealing signs in this way?
It's like a teacher who discovers their students have been texting all year and then suddenly goes ballistic. Yeah, the students are at fault but so is the teacher. Ditto for Manfred.
Quote:
Both teams have been playing the victim when it comes to the Astros, but why would Morrison include them if it were not true?
Maybe he just doesn't like Big Money teams. Possible I guess. But where there is smoke there is usually fire.
Is there a link to support this?
It's on Morrison's twitter. Just google Logan Morrison cheating
Not understanding the difference between doing something overtly vs. doing it covertly to an entirely different level is either being willfully ignorant or just being downright stupid.
Are you trying to say that the Red Sox using video to steal signs and pass it along is just a rumor or that they weren't doing it at all?
These aren't "whispers" or hints at "dabbling". It is full-blown cheating and you'll see the extent when Cora gets punished. They are actually discussing a lifetime ban - although I think it will be less harsh than that.
Not sure why you are getting angry at me.. I didn't know the Red Sox events were already fact, I though they were still just rumors.
To me its all the same.. lots of teams probably using technology to steal signs. Astros got caught and they are getting the Bonds/Clemens treatment while other teams skate by and get treated like Piazza and enter the HOF with no issue..
Yup, that's was exactly my take when I heard he had made those comments.
It's like bluffing in poker, reading the opponent's eyes and other physical body movements and facial experssions.
To me baseball is the one sport that needs less technology... Umps missing a call or having the strike zone expand or shrink based on game day variables is part of the game, providing the calls are consistent for both teams.
I think it's too early to know the degree to which your statement "something that not everyone does" is true... did 1 team do it? 2 teams? 15 teams? 25 teams?
We might never know.
It's like bluffing in poker, reading the opponent's eyes and other physical body movements and facial experssions.
To me baseball is the one sport that needs less technology... Umps missing a call or having the strike zone expand or shrink based on game day variables is part of the game, providing the calls are consistent for both teams.
That's a really good analogy. Imagine the difference between reading a bluff and having video showing a player's hole cards. There's actually a case right now of a guy in the Bay Area using video to see opponents hole cards and he's been banned for life from a whole slew of casinos and he's facing criminal charges.