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Earl the goat : 1/15/2020 6:41 pm
Beltran stepping down ???

Eduardo Perez will be new manager
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RE: If the Mets (or any other organization)  
moze1021 : 1/16/2020 7:04 am : link
In comment 14781293 Gmanfandan said:
Quote:
Knew this prior to the interview process, Beltran never gets the job. That should be case closed.
Replacing will suck, but it needs to be done


Idk... Plenty of former cheaters have MLB jobs. Half the Mets fan base was crying over not getting a guy to be the manager who most likely cheated during his playing days..now he's managing in Philly
Francesa is giving me hope that cooler heads will prevail  
Chris684 : 1/16/2020 8:16 am : link
“Unless Carlos Beltran is sanctioned by MLB in the sign-stealing scandal, the Mets should ignore the hysterical cries for his head. And they are hysterical.”

That tweet followed up on Francesa’s message from Wednesday:

“(The Mets) are patiently(and rightly so) waiting for baseball to finish with Boston and make sure Beltran is in the clear (he should be). That nobody else is going to come forward. Then they will speak. Unless he is tagged, he will be manager.”
Link - ( New Window )
I saw a Facebook message from Beltran's niece  
Section331 : 1/16/2020 8:28 am : link
(who apparently had posted about his hiring days before it was announced) saying that "Tio Carlos" was "stepping down as Mets manager" with a sad face emoji. I've always been a Beltran fan, so sad to see, but not unexpected.
RE: I saw a Facebook message from Beltran's niece  
Gmanfandan : 1/16/2020 8:37 am : link
In comment 14781369 Section331 said:
Quote:
(who apparently had posted about his hiring days before it was announced) saying that "Tio Carlos" was "stepping down as Mets manager" with a sad face emoji. I've always been a Beltran fan, so sad to see, but not unexpected.


It certainly has a better look if it's Carlos that steps down (though the move would be questioned)

I just think for a brand new rookie manager with a win now team has to rise above "well, he wasn't sanctioned so no biggie"

This was a coordinated out in the open, tipping the scales ON the playing field.

Worse then doping and on the level of throwing games.
I wasn't for Beltran being hired  
giantsfan227B : 1/16/2020 8:47 am : link
That said I am honestly more pissed that MLB put a former player (who helped in the investigation) into the report in the 1st place. No other players are mentioned. It is as if MLB said we can't punish you but we can ruin your reputation.

I am not sure who was in charge of the investigation. I have heard Torre at least had some role. The Yankees (mainly ex-players and Yankee fan commentators) have been the loudest critics. This reeks to me of publicly shaming someone who may have impacted Torre's former team. In fact the second loudest complainers have been the Dodgers. Hmm, Torre connections???

If the Mets really want to make some noise and be sand in the vasoline of MLB, they should strongly come out and say this happened while he was a player, he has been cleared by MLB and he is our manager going forward. Period.

The idea he now needs to come out and have a mea culpa to the media is BS. He owes no one. It happened, move on.

I find it funny because teams have been studying pitchers for tipping pitches for years using video. They have had men on second touch a shoulder or put one or two hands down signaling location or type of pitch. This is just a new form. It was found out. Remove the cameras or allow both teams cameras in all parks.

I honestly had more of an issue years back when an Astros employee broke into the Cardinals systems and stole their analytics and other info. That is a federal crime. Determining is it a fastball or curve or inside or out. C'mon. This isn't watergate.
Hopefully they stand behind Beltran  
Rflairr : 1/16/2020 9:48 am : link
This is nuts. So what, no one on the 17 Astros can be a manager in baseball?

No players are being disciplined, why should he? Crazy
RE: Hopefully they stand behind Beltran  
Mike in NY : 1/16/2020 9:55 am : link
In comment 14781464 Rflairr said:
Quote:
This is nuts. So what, no one on the 17 Astros can be a manager in baseball?

No players are being disciplined, why should he? Crazy


Based on what has been reported so far, I believe that the calls for Beltran to be fired are ridiculous. I would also be concerned about whether a different manager can work with the coaching staff that has been assembled. To use an analogy to football, it is like hiring all of your assistants before hiring the Head Coach.
Weak  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 10:00 am : link
sauce from Earl the Goat with the fake news.

Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
As of last night #Mets weren’t reaching out to experienced managers such as Showalter or Dusty Baker. They were mulling whether to move forward with Beltran. Heard there was a lot of conflict in org about what the right way to go would be.
Beltran should remain as manager  
Rory : 1/16/2020 10:03 am : link
and the longer this goes the more the perception is that there is division in the front office. Its gotta be Fred Wilpon causing the noise.

BVV step up and make a statement, NY Mets fans want to move forward

If he is fired/forced to resign, then you can thank the fucking NY media for antagonizing and sensationalizing this story to meet a juicy narrative for clicks/reads.

In an odd way, this almost presents an opportunity for the Mets...  
Drewcon40 : 1/16/2020 10:04 am : link
...to come out looking good.

First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.

When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.

I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.

Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.
RE: Francesa is giving me hope that cooler heads will prevail  
Rory : 1/16/2020 10:05 am : link
In comment 14781355 Chris684 said:
Quote:
“Unless Carlos Beltran is sanctioned by MLB in the sign-stealing scandal, the Mets should ignore the hysterical cries for his head. And they are hysterical.”

That tweet followed up on Francesa’s message from Wednesday:

“(The Mets) are patiently(and rightly so) waiting for baseball to finish with Boston and make sure Beltran is in the clear (he should be). That nobody else is going to come forward. Then they will speak. Unless he is tagged, he will be manager.” Link - ( New Window )


Now that you mention this, it makes alot of sense and would explain the delay.
RE: In an odd way, this almost presents an opportunity for the Mets...  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 10:05 am : link
In comment 14781491 Drewcon40 said:
Quote:
...to come out looking good.

First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.

When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.

I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.

Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.


The Mets look bad not issuing SOME sort of statement. It gives everyone a chance to run wild.
MLB  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 10:11 am : link
JUST opened the Red Sox investigation about a week ago, this is not the cause of the Beltran delay unless you believe the Mets are going to leave things as is for the next few weeks.
to be fair to Earl this whole process reeks of wilpons  
Eric on Li : 1/16/2020 10:11 am : link
they always leak like sieves to try to get their story out and they always focus so much on public opinion like that's more important than anything else. The only exception is when it's their own decisions on the line like spending money, then they just leak to spin (and usually fail).

They have no consistent guiding principles which is why they almost always fail or flail inconsistently in different directions year to year and move to move.

They should have put out a statement immediately that they are reviewing the results of the MLB investigation, and consulting with them on all background info, and will have no comment until that review is complete. They support Carlos as manager and want to be as thorough as possible to help him move past this previous incident - which includes making sure there's a thorough understanding of what happened.

It wouldn't even be a bad idea to hire a trusted independent 3rd party to review the materials and make a recommendation. But to do that confidently you'd have to a core principle of wanting to get to the truth more than anything else, which of course the Wilpon's don't have.
RE: RE: In an odd way, this almost presents an opportunity for the Mets...  
Mike in NY : 1/16/2020 10:11 am : link
In comment 14781495 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 14781491 Drewcon40 said:


Quote:


...to come out looking good.

First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.

When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.

I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.

Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.



The Mets look bad not issuing SOME sort of statement. It gives everyone a chance to run wild.


They need to issue SOME sort of statement, but they are in a no win situation even if they do. If they voice their unequivocal support for Beltran and new information comes to light in the future they look like idiots. If they don't voice their unequivocal support for Beltran they look like idiots.
Lol  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 10:12 am : link
Jessica Mendoza took Fiers to task for being a whistleblower, quite the take from a Mets employee.
Lifetime Mets fan and I liked Beltran as a player  
Csonka : 1/16/2020 10:13 am : link
But I'm not invested in him as a manager. I don't blow this off as if it's no big deal like some are doing. It's cheating. The Astros cheated. And Beltran seems to have cheated. Like any hiring for any job, integrity matters. The manager is the face of the franchise. Personally I'd move on. I'm pretty confident he's a 0 WARM anyway (wins against replacement manager).

But if they decide to keep him, I'll still be a Mets fan.
RE: Lol  
Drewcon40 : 1/16/2020 10:14 am : link
In comment 14781512 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
Jessica Mendoza took Fiers to task for being a whistleblower, quite the take from a Mets employee.


Dan where did you see that? I would LOVE to see that if that was on TV or a tweet.
RE: RE: Lol  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 10:15 am : link
In comment 14781515 Drewcon40 said:
Quote:
In comment 14781512 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


Jessica Mendoza took Fiers to task for being a whistleblower, quite the take from a Mets employee.



Dan where did you see that? I would LOVE to see that if that was on TV or a tweet.


Linked
Link - ( New Window )
Thanks Dan!  
Drewcon40 : 1/16/2020 10:16 am : link
I appreciate that.
Beltran's role was in a gray area of cheating  
Eric on Li : 1/16/2020 10:21 am : link
He has almost definitely been trying to get signs off pitchers his entire career (including when he was here previously), along with probably more than 50% of other hitters in the sport. Along the way there were probably dozens of different schemes attempted with teammates using signals from basepaths, dugouts, etc. I doubt any of us would consider any of that cheating even though it has the exact same end goal as what happened here.

The difference in this situation was organizational support and the utilization of technology/video/FO personnel in real time. As a player that was something Beltran had 0 control over even though he did appear to knowingly and voluntarily participate.

So again - gray area. If he was candid with investigators and his involvement didn't go beyond the purpose of what hitters have tried to do since the beginning of the sport (get an advantage over pitchers) like all the rest of the players, then apologize and move on. If the team personnel hadn't been endorsing this they likely never go beyond the methods that are widely utilized by every other team's hitters without real time technology.

If he was not candid and showed dishonesty and a lack of integrity over the past few months, then there's a decision to make.
everytime I hear someone speak  
Rory : 1/16/2020 10:29 am : link
about Beltran all I hear is over the top compliments and appreciation as one of the best baseball minds.

Really hope Mets dont miss out on a opportunity.

Beltran isn't just a new face manager either, he's a past superstar who played for this team and there is claim of loyalty trust on both sides which strengthens the argument to keep him.
Jeff  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 10:29 am : link
to address the media in an hour regarding the Piazza honor, guessing he'll ignore all Beltran questions.
RE: Beltran's role was in a gray area of cheating  
Vanzetti : 1/16/2020 10:34 am : link
In comment 14781528 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
He has almost definitely been trying to get signs off pitchers his entire career (including when he was here previously), along with probably more than 50% of other hitters in the sport. Along the way there were probably dozens of different schemes attempted with teammates using signals from basepaths, dugouts, etc. I doubt any of us would consider any of that cheating even though it has the exact same end goal as what happened here.

The difference in this situation was organizational support and the utilization of technology/video/FO personnel in real time. As a player that was something Beltran had 0 control over even though he did appear to knowingly and voluntarily participate.

So again - gray area. If he was candid with investigators and his involvement didn't go beyond the purpose of what hitters have tried to do since the beginning of the sport (get an advantage over pitchers) like all the rest of the players, then apologize and move on. If the team personnel hadn't been endorsing this they likely never go beyond the methods that are widely utilized by every other team's hitters without real time technology.

If he was not candid and showed dishonesty and a lack of integrity over the past few months, then there's a decision to make.


It's a hard position to be in as a player. Because if you don't go along with it, the other players start looking at you as a potential rat. Beltran did not want to wind up like Serpico.

I've  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 10:36 am : link
strongly defended Beltran and will continue to but this idea he "went along with it" against his wishes is really not based in reality. He was very much involved and involved in part because of his long known ability to read pitchers and their tells.
RE: RE: RE: In an odd way, this almost presents an opportunity for the Mets...  
Eman11 : 1/16/2020 10:43 am : link
In comment 14781505 Mike in NY said:
Quote:
In comment 14781495 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


In comment 14781491 Drewcon40 said:


Quote:


...to come out looking good.

First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.

When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.

I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.

Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.



The Mets look bad not issuing SOME sort of statement. It gives everyone a chance to run wild.



They need to issue SOME sort of statement, but they are in a no win situation even if they do. If they voice their unequivocal support for Beltran and new information comes to light in the future they look like idiots. If they don't voice their unequivocal support for Beltran they look like idiots.


MLB has issued a really strongly worded gag order to all teams on this scandal. Supposedly breaking it will be met just as severely as the punishment the Stros got if not harsher.

I'd bet that's a big part of why the Mets haven't issued any statement. Probably waiting on MLB to finish with the Red Sox and see if they then move on to Beltran or not.
Eman  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 10:47 am : link
that is NOT accurate. MLB has told teams not to comment on the punishment (including the Dodgers). They have NOT told teams they can't comment on their own employees. The Red Sox fired Cora and issued a statement regarding his involvement.
.  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 10:48 am : link
"Alex, by his own admission, we agreed, played a central role in what happened in Houston," Werner said. "And we all agreed that it was wrong, and we had a responsibility as stewards, as John has said, to have a standard here where that sort of behavior is not acceptable."

"It's not ideal," Henry said. "It's not what we would like to be doing at this point. We were all surprised to read this report on Monday. But this is ... I don't know if you would call it a logical conclusion, but this is where we are as a result of that."

"Regarding the ongoing investigation here in Boston, MLB is doing a thorough investigation -- as thorough as what took place in Houston -- and we believe that all the facts will be ascertained," Henry read from a prepared statement. "We would ask that everyone reserve judgment until MLB completes its investigation and determines whether rules were violated."



There is absolutely nothing stopping the Mets from commenting and the Red Sox investigation was opened on 1/7 so if the Mets are waiting that out... dumb, dumb, dumb.
RE: Eman  
Eman11 : 1/16/2020 10:51 am : link
In comment 14781583 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
that is NOT accurate. MLB has told teams not to comment on the punishment (including the Dodgers). They have NOT told teams they can't comment on their own employees. The Red Sox fired Cora and issued a statement regarding his involvement.


You may be right but I took it as they don't want any part of the scandal to be talked about. Not only the punishments but the ongoing process as well.

No doubt the Sox had to say something in regards to Cora stepping down but I'd bet that was cleared with MLB and their were limits to what they could say.
Beltran almost def went along with it and was probably enthusiastic  
Eric on Li : 1/16/2020 10:52 am : link
since he has always been searching for an edge like that, like many other hitters both on the Astros and other teams.

But that's besides the point because the behavior that took it to the level of cheating (insertion of technology) was out of his control. That is on the team. And we also already know the highest levels of the FO was pushing the team personnel to gain an edge however they can by using cameras and other technology.

Beltran's participation may have been knowing, enthusiastic, and enormously helpful in their scheme's success, but it doesn't change the fact that if the FO hadn't been actively involved it seems unlikely the illegal component (cameras) would have been possible.
RE: Beltran almost def went along with it and was probably enthusiastic  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 10:55 am : link
In comment 14781595 Eric on Li said:
Quote:
since he has always been searching for an edge like that, like many other hitters both on the Astros and other teams.

But that's besides the point because the behavior that took it to the level of cheating (insertion of technology) was out of his control. That is on the team. And we also already know the highest levels of the FO was pushing the team personnel to gain an edge however they can by using cameras and other technology.

Beltran's participation may have been knowing, enthusiastic, and enormously helpful in their scheme's success, but it doesn't change the fact that if the FO hadn't been actively involved it seems unlikely the illegal component (cameras) would have been possible.


Eric,
I think these are 2 different issues. I'm simply stating based on everything we have heard Beltran was not in any way "pressured" into this. I want him retained but I also understand he was very much involved (as were other players). He wasn't an angel pressured to do bad things by his very close friend Alex Cora.
Jessica Mendoza  
pjcas18 : 1/16/2020 10:59 am : link
with the "snitches get stitches" take on Fiers. LOL.

Viewed as an "official" Mets response.
Beltran hit .231 with a .666 OPS with Astros in 2017  
Vanzetti : 1/16/2020 11:00 am : link
After hitting .295 with an 850 OPS the previous year.

So, if he was getting signs, it certainly didn't help him very much
RE: Beltran hit .231 with a .666 OPS with Astros in 2017  
pjcas18 : 1/16/2020 11:02 am : link
In comment 14781609 Vanzetti said:
Quote:
After hitting .295 with an 850 OPS the previous year.

So, if he was getting signs, it certainly didn't help him very much


his home/road splits were nearly identical too, not that it matters, but it appears he had no individual benefit.
Can't  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 11:15 am : link
believe the Mets dropped 2 of their much publicized analytics hires. Their website now has them with 1 single full-time employee (Guttridge). They were already behind in this regard. Sad.
What  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 12:12 pm : link
a tool
Link - ( New Window )
i mean hes right to keep the focus  
Rory : 1/16/2020 12:46 pm : link
on Piazza, but the approach to answer the inevitable question was awful.

Wonder how Cohen interprets all of this
RE: Can't  
Metnut : 1/16/2020 12:48 pm : link
In comment 14781630 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
believe the Mets dropped 2 of their much publicized analytics hires. Their website now has them with 1 single full-time employee (Guttridge). They were already behind in this regard. Sad.


Any idea why they did this?
RE: What  
allstarjim : 1/16/2020 1:04 pm : link
In comment 14781751 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
a tool Link - ( New Window )


He's a tool but there's zero wrong with that response. Reporter has to ask the question if he's doing his job, but that kind of answer has to be expected.
Beltran  
DanMetroMan : 1/16/2020 1:07 pm : link
has told the Mets he believes he should step down. Beltran out.
got a Yahoo alert that  
Drewcon40 : 1/16/2020 1:09 pm : link
Beltran stepped down.
RE: Beltran  
figgy2989 : 1/16/2020 1:09 pm : link
In comment 14781938 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
has told the Mets he believes he should step down. Beltran out.


Unreal
Honestly if the negative attention this year was just on the dumb  
bhill410 : 1/16/2020 1:17 pm : link
Manager I would have been more than fine. Probably would have isolated the players to their benefit and Beltran is a big boy who can handle it. I have been ambiguous around the hire from the start so can’t get too worked up but it’s certainly less than ideal timing.
RE: RE: Beltran  
Gmanfandan : 1/16/2020 1:24 pm : link
In comment 14781941 figgy2989 said:
Quote:
In comment 14781938 DanMetroMan said:


Quote:


has told the Mets he believes he should step down. Beltran out.



Unreal


Never a dull moment in New York (N) Baseball
RE: RE: Beltran almost def went along with it and was probably enthusiastic  
Eric on Li : 1/16/2020 1:28 pm : link
In comment 14781601 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
In comment 14781595 Eric on Li said:


Quote:


since he has always been searching for an edge like that, like many other hitters both on the Astros and other teams.

But that's besides the point because the behavior that took it to the level of cheating (insertion of technology) was out of his control. That is on the team. And we also already know the highest levels of the FO was pushing the team personnel to gain an edge however they can by using cameras and other technology.

Beltran's participation may have been knowing, enthusiastic, and enormously helpful in their scheme's success, but it doesn't change the fact that if the FO hadn't been actively involved it seems unlikely the illegal component (cameras) would have been possible.



Eric,
I think these are 2 different issues. I'm simply stating based on everything we have heard Beltran was not in any way "pressured" into this. I want him retained but I also understand he was very much involved (as were other players). He wasn't an angel pressured to do bad things by his very close friend Alex Cora.


DMM - am I wrong or wasn't there an email from the Astros GM (or AGM) sending a note to his front office encouraging the usage of aggressive filming tactics well in advance of whenever this system rolled out?

I don't care what Beltran's moral compass/enthusiasm level was to take part in the scheme. My point is the active push from the highest levels of the houston front office is the core factor in this whole event crossing the line from gamesmanship to breaking rules (technology). I don't think it matters at all how eager the participating players were to take part in it. They are players who want to win, paid to at least in part listen to the direction they are receiving from management. Not to make moral judgements on where the line is, which is especially different if it's contrary to what your bosses are telling you to do. Mike Fiers deserves commendation for eventually going public and for having moral clarity to see what others should have had in the moment but even he took years to blow the whistle.
RE: Weak  
Earl the goat : 1/16/2020 1:45 pm : link
In comment 14781482 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
sauce from Earl the Goat with the fake news.

Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
As of last night #Mets weren’t reaching out to experienced managers such as Showalter or Dusty Baker. They were mulling whether to move forward with Beltran. Heard there was a lot of conflict in org about what the right way to go would be.



Dan. Is it still weak and fake ?
RE: What  
Earl the goat : 1/16/2020 1:47 pm : link
In comment 14781751 DanMetroMan said:
Quote:
a tool Link - ( New Window )



Dan. You said I reported fake news yesterday and it was weak
Still think that ?
Changing the subject to some good news  
pjcas18 : 1/16/2020 8:51 pm : link
Michael Mayer
@mikemayerMMO
· 10h
Folks, Mets catcher prospect Francisco Alvarez will play the entire 2020 season at 18 years old. https://twitter.com/mikemayerMMO/s


Christopher Soto
@SotoC803
Adley Rustchmann was the CLEAR cut #1 prospect in last year's draft......and Alvarez already matches him on both his hit tool and arm strength despite being 4 years younger than him.

Strong possibility that Alvarez ends up having 60 grades for his power and fielding very soon.
.  
pjcas18 : 1/16/2020 8:51 pm : link
Michael Mayer
@mikemayerMMO
· 10h
Top 10 catching prospects in baseball according to @MLBPipeline:

1 Adley Rutschman
2 Joey Bart
3 Sean Murphy
4 Luis Campusano
5 FRANCISCO ALVAREZ
6 Shea Langeliers
7 Keibert Ruiz
8 Sam Huff
9 Daulton Varsho
10 Miguel Amaya

https://mlb.com/news/top-catch
RE: Jessica Mendoza  
Carson53 : 1/17/2020 8:18 am : link
In comment 14781608 pjcas18 said:
Quote:
with the "snitches get stitches" take on Fiers. LOL.

Viewed as an "official" Mets response.
.

Well, she really should shut the hell up, my goodness.
A former softball player, I mean really?
Brodie, the Boy Wonder may want to re-consider
having her around in any capacity. She does work for ESPN, so at times, it can be a conflict of interest.

This is what he said:

"Jessica was speaking as an ESPN analyst, not as a spokesperson for the Mets,” Van Wagenen said.
“I have not had the opportunity to speak with her yet.”
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