was obvious that something like this was coming down.
How was it obvious? The Fiers story about the Stros cheating didn't break until after Beltran was hired by the Mets.
While there were teams suspicious of the Stros there really wasn't anything being talked about or even hinted at the type of scandal that's come out since.
I agree with the guys on Hot Stove. If they truly intended on keeping Beltran they easily could have said something by now so it is possible Beltran could be gone.
In addition there is a tweet out there by a girl (supposedly Beltran's niece) at 1:11pm today saying that Beltran is stepping down as manager of the Mets.
However I would think the Mets would have wanted to get out in front of this unless they are negotiating a settlement for him to leave and a new contract for a manager. Perez was passed over. Not sure he would want to be sloppy seconds especially after the entire coaching staff was selected for Beltran.
I think the Mets will take their time. MLB said no player will face discipline. The Mets are in the clear. However it is interesting MLB mentioned Beltran in the report considering players couldn't be disciplined. Somehow I have a feeling they were warning the Mets without warning the Mets. I think Beltran could have a case vs MLB especially if terminated.
At the end of the day I think it is 65/35 Beltran returns but it wouldn't shock me if he does resign.
liked the Beltran hiring. But at this point it's not like they can get Girardi who they evidently never wanted anyway. I would have no problem if the organization gave Beltran his walking papers.
whats the allegation re: beltran other than taking part in a teamwide Â
sign stealing operation? Even if he was an enthusiastic participant and ring leader, the fact that it went higher up beyond him with organizational support, I just don't see what his culpability is. Players try to steal signs and get an edge on every team. The organization FO actively prodding to find ways to gain an edge and endorsing the plan with technology and personnel support against the rules is seemingly the egregious problem here.
Unfortunately it isn't about culpability now. It's about his relationship with the Mets based on his conversations regarding the events, if they had any, about the optics for the organization going forward and potential effects of his involvement on his ability to be effective as manager.
We have no idea how any of those are being viewed by the Mets so can't predict the outcome.
I do believe MLB may have unfairly released his name while shielding literally every other person involved that he shared status with in the game at the time. But you can't close that Pandora's Box now.
for context here's the pull quote I saw of his mention in the report Â
I get that Beltran lied when he was introduced to the media, or at minimum gave a very evasive answer, but this had nothing to do with the Mets and at the time the story was still developing. Is the expectation that he should have revealed every transgression he's ever seen or been a party to over his career?
What he did was wrong, he should apologize, and then everyone should move on - unless there's more to it specifically related to him. The only comparable player actions I can think of were Brady/deflategate, but obviously brady was much more of a principal in that.
Unfortunately it isn't about culpability now. It's about his relationship with the Mets based on his conversations regarding the events, if they had any, about the optics for the organization going forward and potential effects of his involvement on his ability to be effective as manager.
I get that you don't want to have a guy around who lied about something, but the Wilpons have lied and been less than truthful about the Madoff situation for a decade now. BVW is lying every time he says that the Wilpons give him carte blanche to upgrade the team and there's nothing he can't do. All athletes and organizations engage in some level of competitive dishonesty and PR spin to the media. It is just abject hypocrisy if that's what gets him fired.
If he wasn't truthful with investigators or the team in internal conversations once this story progressed, or showed a pattern of dishonesty, that's possibly different.
And I say all this as someone who was not an enthusiastic supporter of hiring him in the first place. I wanted someone proven like Girardi or Baker or Showalter, so if they end up in that direction I think it may even improve the odds of the team winning. I just think it's a massive overreaction to can a guy who did something stupid a few years ago and then like everyone else in that organization didn't speak out about it.
Ownerships/managements trustworthiness is irrelevant. In fact it hurts Beltran's chances of retaining the job because the organization feels they are fighting the perception that they lack integrity.
Personally I like Beltran and would have him make some mea culpas about his involvement and move on. I have no idea what the Mets will do.
Knew this prior to the interview process, Beltran never gets the job. That should be case closed.
Replacing will suck, but it needs to be done
Idk... Plenty of former cheaters have MLB jobs. Half the Mets fan base was crying over not getting a guy to be the manager who most likely cheated during his playing days..now he's managing in Philly
Francesa is giving me hope that cooler heads will prevail Â
“Unless Carlos Beltran is sanctioned by MLB in the sign-stealing scandal, the Mets should ignore the hysterical cries for his head. And they are hysterical.”
That tweet followed up on Francesa’s message from Wednesday:
“(The Mets) are patiently(and rightly so) waiting for baseball to finish with Boston and make sure Beltran is in the clear (he should be). That nobody else is going to come forward. Then they will speak. Unless he is tagged, he will be manager.” Link - ( New Window )
(who apparently had posted about his hiring days before it was announced) saying that "Tio Carlos" was "stepping down as Mets manager" with a sad face emoji. I've always been a Beltran fan, so sad to see, but not unexpected.
RE: I saw a Facebook message from Beltran's niece Â
(who apparently had posted about his hiring days before it was announced) saying that "Tio Carlos" was "stepping down as Mets manager" with a sad face emoji. I've always been a Beltran fan, so sad to see, but not unexpected.
It certainly has a better look if it's Carlos that steps down (though the move would be questioned)
I just think for a brand new rookie manager with a win now team has to rise above "well, he wasn't sanctioned so no biggie"
This was a coordinated out in the open, tipping the scales ON the playing field.
Worse then doping and on the level of throwing games.
That said I am honestly more pissed that MLB put a former player (who helped in the investigation) into the report in the 1st place. No other players are mentioned. It is as if MLB said we can't punish you but we can ruin your reputation.
I am not sure who was in charge of the investigation. I have heard Torre at least had some role. The Yankees (mainly ex-players and Yankee fan commentators) have been the loudest critics. This reeks to me of publicly shaming someone who may have impacted Torre's former team. In fact the second loudest complainers have been the Dodgers. Hmm, Torre connections???
If the Mets really want to make some noise and be sand in the vasoline of MLB, they should strongly come out and say this happened while he was a player, he has been cleared by MLB and he is our manager going forward. Period.
The idea he now needs to come out and have a mea culpa to the media is BS. He owes no one. It happened, move on.
I find it funny because teams have been studying pitchers for tipping pitches for years using video. They have had men on second touch a shoulder or put one or two hands down signaling location or type of pitch. This is just a new form. It was found out. Remove the cameras or allow both teams cameras in all parks.
I honestly had more of an issue years back when an Astros employee broke into the Cardinals systems and stole their analytics and other info. That is a federal crime. Determining is it a fastball or curve or inside or out. C'mon. This isn't watergate.
This is nuts. So what, no one on the 17 Astros can be a manager in baseball?
No players are being disciplined, why should he? Crazy
Based on what has been reported so far, I believe that the calls for Beltran to be fired are ridiculous. I would also be concerned about whether a different manager can work with the coaching staff that has been assembled. To use an analogy to football, it is like hiring all of your assistants before hiring the Head Coach.
Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
As of last night #Mets weren’t reaching out to experienced managers such as Showalter or Dusty Baker. They were mulling whether to move forward with Beltran. Heard there was a lot of conflict in org about what the right way to go would be.
and the longer this goes the more the perception is that there is division in the front office. Its gotta be Fred Wilpon causing the noise.
BVV step up and make a statement, NY Mets fans want to move forward
If he is fired/forced to resign, then you can thank the fucking NY media for antagonizing and sensationalizing this story to meet a juicy narrative for clicks/reads.
In an odd way, this almost presents an opportunity for the Mets... Â
First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.
When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.
I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.
Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.
RE: Francesa is giving me hope that cooler heads will prevail Â
“Unless Carlos Beltran is sanctioned by MLB in the sign-stealing scandal, the Mets should ignore the hysterical cries for his head. And they are hysterical.”
That tweet followed up on Francesa’s message from Wednesday:
“(The Mets) are patiently(and rightly so) waiting for baseball to finish with Boston and make sure Beltran is in the clear (he should be). That nobody else is going to come forward. Then they will speak. Unless he is tagged, he will be manager.” Link - ( New Window )
Now that you mention this, it makes alot of sense and would explain the delay.
RE: In an odd way, this almost presents an opportunity for the Mets... Â
First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.
When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.
I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.
Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.
The Mets look bad not issuing SOME sort of statement. It gives everyone a chance to run wild.
JUST opened the Red Sox investigation about a week ago, this is not the cause of the Beltran delay unless you believe the Mets are going to leave things as is for the next few weeks.
to be fair to Earl this whole process reeks of wilpons Â
they always leak like sieves to try to get their story out and they always focus so much on public opinion like that's more important than anything else. The only exception is when it's their own decisions on the line like spending money, then they just leak to spin (and usually fail).
They have no consistent guiding principles which is why they almost always fail or flail inconsistently in different directions year to year and move to move.
They should have put out a statement immediately that they are reviewing the results of the MLB investigation, and consulting with them on all background info, and will have no comment until that review is complete. They support Carlos as manager and want to be as thorough as possible to help him move past this previous incident - which includes making sure there's a thorough understanding of what happened.
It wouldn't even be a bad idea to hire a trusted independent 3rd party to review the materials and make a recommendation. But to do that confidently you'd have to a core principle of wanting to get to the truth more than anything else, which of course the Wilpon's don't have.
RE: RE: In an odd way, this almost presents an opportunity for the Mets... Â
First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.
When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.
I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.
Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.
The Mets look bad not issuing SOME sort of statement. It gives everyone a chance to run wild.
They need to issue SOME sort of statement, but they are in a no win situation even if they do. If they voice their unequivocal support for Beltran and new information comes to light in the future they look like idiots. If they don't voice their unequivocal support for Beltran they look like idiots.
But I'm not invested in him as a manager. I don't blow this off as if it's no big deal like some are doing. It's cheating. The Astros cheated. And Beltran seems to have cheated. Like any hiring for any job, integrity matters. The manager is the face of the franchise. Personally I'd move on. I'm pretty confident he's a 0 WARM anyway (wins against replacement manager).
But if they decide to keep him, I'll still be a Mets fan.
He has almost definitely been trying to get signs off pitchers his entire career (including when he was here previously), along with probably more than 50% of other hitters in the sport. Along the way there were probably dozens of different schemes attempted with teammates using signals from basepaths, dugouts, etc. I doubt any of us would consider any of that cheating even though it has the exact same end goal as what happened here.
The difference in this situation was organizational support and the utilization of technology/video/FO personnel in real time. As a player that was something Beltran had 0 control over even though he did appear to knowingly and voluntarily participate.
So again - gray area. If he was candid with investigators and his involvement didn't go beyond the purpose of what hitters have tried to do since the beginning of the sport (get an advantage over pitchers) like all the rest of the players, then apologize and move on. If the team personnel hadn't been endorsing this they likely never go beyond the methods that are widely utilized by every other team's hitters without real time technology.
If he was not candid and showed dishonesty and a lack of integrity over the past few months, then there's a decision to make.
about Beltran all I hear is over the top compliments and appreciation as one of the best baseball minds.
Really hope Mets dont miss out on a opportunity.
Beltran isn't just a new face manager either, he's a past superstar who played for this team and there is claim of loyalty trust on both sides which strengthens the argument to keep him.
He has almost definitely been trying to get signs off pitchers his entire career (including when he was here previously), along with probably more than 50% of other hitters in the sport. Along the way there were probably dozens of different schemes attempted with teammates using signals from basepaths, dugouts, etc. I doubt any of us would consider any of that cheating even though it has the exact same end goal as what happened here.
The difference in this situation was organizational support and the utilization of technology/video/FO personnel in real time. As a player that was something Beltran had 0 control over even though he did appear to knowingly and voluntarily participate.
So again - gray area. If he was candid with investigators and his involvement didn't go beyond the purpose of what hitters have tried to do since the beginning of the sport (get an advantage over pitchers) like all the rest of the players, then apologize and move on. If the team personnel hadn't been endorsing this they likely never go beyond the methods that are widely utilized by every other team's hitters without real time technology.
If he was not candid and showed dishonesty and a lack of integrity over the past few months, then there's a decision to make.
It's a hard position to be in as a player. Because if you don't go along with it, the other players start looking at you as a potential rat. Beltran did not want to wind up like Serpico.
strongly defended Beltran and will continue to but this idea he "went along with it" against his wishes is really not based in reality. He was very much involved and involved in part because of his long known ability to read pitchers and their tells.
RE: RE: RE: In an odd way, this almost presents an opportunity for the Mets... Â
First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.
When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.
I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.
Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.
The Mets look bad not issuing SOME sort of statement. It gives everyone a chance to run wild.
They need to issue SOME sort of statement, but they are in a no win situation even if they do. If they voice their unequivocal support for Beltran and new information comes to light in the future they look like idiots. If they don't voice their unequivocal support for Beltran they look like idiots.
MLB has issued a really strongly worded gag order to all teams on this scandal. Supposedly breaking it will be met just as severely as the punishment the Stros got if not harsher.
I'd bet that's a big part of why the Mets haven't issued any statement. Probably waiting on MLB to finish with the Red Sox and see if they then move on to Beltran or not.
that is NOT accurate. MLB has told teams not to comment on the punishment (including the Dodgers). They have NOT told teams they can't comment on their own employees. The Red Sox fired Cora and issued a statement regarding his involvement.
"Alex, by his own admission, we agreed, played a central role in what happened in Houston," Werner said. "And we all agreed that it was wrong, and we had a responsibility as stewards, as John has said, to have a standard here where that sort of behavior is not acceptable."
"It's not ideal," Henry said. "It's not what we would like to be doing at this point. We were all surprised to read this report on Monday. But this is ... I don't know if you would call it a logical conclusion, but this is where we are as a result of that."
"Regarding the ongoing investigation here in Boston, MLB is doing a thorough investigation -- as thorough as what took place in Houston -- and we believe that all the facts will be ascertained," Henry read from a prepared statement. "We would ask that everyone reserve judgment until MLB completes its investigation and determines whether rules were violated."
There is absolutely nothing stopping the Mets from commenting and the Red Sox investigation was opened on 1/7 so if the Mets are waiting that out... dumb, dumb, dumb.
that is NOT accurate. MLB has told teams not to comment on the punishment (including the Dodgers). They have NOT told teams they can't comment on their own employees. The Red Sox fired Cora and issued a statement regarding his involvement.
You may be right but I took it as they don't want any part of the scandal to be talked about. Not only the punishments but the ongoing process as well.
No doubt the Sox had to say something in regards to Cora stepping down but I'd bet that was cleared with MLB and their were limits to what they could say.
Beltran almost def went along with it and was probably enthusiastic Â
since he has always been searching for an edge like that, like many other hitters both on the Astros and other teams.
But that's besides the point because the behavior that took it to the level of cheating (insertion of technology) was out of his control. That is on the team. And we also already know the highest levels of the FO was pushing the team personnel to gain an edge however they can by using cameras and other technology.
Beltran's participation may have been knowing, enthusiastic, and enormously helpful in their scheme's success, but it doesn't change the fact that if the FO hadn't been actively involved it seems unlikely the illegal component (cameras) would have been possible.
RE: Beltran almost def went along with it and was probably enthusiastic Â
since he has always been searching for an edge like that, like many other hitters both on the Astros and other teams.
But that's besides the point because the behavior that took it to the level of cheating (insertion of technology) was out of his control. That is on the team. And we also already know the highest levels of the FO was pushing the team personnel to gain an edge however they can by using cameras and other technology.
Beltran's participation may have been knowing, enthusiastic, and enormously helpful in their scheme's success, but it doesn't change the fact that if the FO hadn't been actively involved it seems unlikely the illegal component (cameras) would have been possible.
Eric,
I think these are 2 different issues. I'm simply stating based on everything we have heard Beltran was not in any way "pressured" into this. I want him retained but I also understand he was very much involved (as were other players). He wasn't an angel pressured to do bad things by his very close friend Alex Cora.
believe the Mets dropped 2 of their much publicized analytics hires. Their website now has them with 1 single full-time employee (Guttridge). They were already behind in this regard. Sad.
believe the Mets dropped 2 of their much publicized analytics hires. Their website now has them with 1 single full-time employee (Guttridge). They were already behind in this regard. Sad.
He's a tool but there's zero wrong with that response. Reporter has to ask the question if he's doing his job, but that kind of answer has to be expected.
Manager I would have been more than fine. Probably would have isolated the players to their benefit and Beltran is a big boy who can handle it. I have been ambiguous around the hire from the start so can’t get too worked up but it’s certainly less than ideal timing.
since he has always been searching for an edge like that, like many other hitters both on the Astros and other teams.
But that's besides the point because the behavior that took it to the level of cheating (insertion of technology) was out of his control. That is on the team. And we also already know the highest levels of the FO was pushing the team personnel to gain an edge however they can by using cameras and other technology.
Beltran's participation may have been knowing, enthusiastic, and enormously helpful in their scheme's success, but it doesn't change the fact that if the FO hadn't been actively involved it seems unlikely the illegal component (cameras) would have been possible.
Eric,
I think these are 2 different issues. I'm simply stating based on everything we have heard Beltran was not in any way "pressured" into this. I want him retained but I also understand he was very much involved (as were other players). He wasn't an angel pressured to do bad things by his very close friend Alex Cora.
DMM - am I wrong or wasn't there an email from the Astros GM (or AGM) sending a note to his front office encouraging the usage of aggressive filming tactics well in advance of whenever this system rolled out?
I don't care what Beltran's moral compass/enthusiasm level was to take part in the scheme. My point is the active push from the highest levels of the houston front office is the core factor in this whole event crossing the line from gamesmanship to breaking rules (technology). I don't think it matters at all how eager the participating players were to take part in it. They are players who want to win, paid to at least in part listen to the direction they are receiving from management. Not to make moral judgements on where the line is, which is especially different if it's contrary to what your bosses are telling you to do. Mike Fiers deserves commendation for eventually going public and for having moral clarity to see what others should have had in the moment but even he took years to blow the whistle.
Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
As of last night #Mets weren’t reaching out to experienced managers such as Showalter or Dusty Baker. They were mulling whether to move forward with Beltran. Heard there was a lot of conflict in org about what the right way to go would be.
Michael Mayer
@mikemayerMMO
· 10h
Folks, Mets catcher prospect Francisco Alvarez will play the entire 2020 season at 18 years old. https://twitter.com/mikemayerMMO/s
Christopher Soto
@SotoC803
Adley Rustchmann was the CLEAR cut #1 prospect in last year's draft......and Alvarez already matches him on both his hit tool and arm strength despite being 4 years younger than him.
Strong possibility that Alvarez ends up having 60 grades for his power and fielding very soon.
with the "snitches get stitches" take on Fiers. LOL.
Viewed as an "official" Mets response.
.
Well, she really should shut the hell up, my goodness.
A former softball player, I mean really?
Brodie, the Boy Wonder may want to re-consider
having her around in any capacity. She does work for ESPN, so at times, it can be a conflict of interest.
This is what he said:
"Jessica was speaking as an ESPN analyst, not as a spokesperson for the Mets,” Van Wagenen said.
“I have not had the opportunity to speak with her yet.”
How was it obvious? The Fiers story about the Stros cheating didn't break until after Beltran was hired by the Mets.
While there were teams suspicious of the Stros there really wasn't anything being talked about or even hinted at the type of scandal that's come out since.
In addition there is a tweet out there by a girl (supposedly Beltran's niece) at 1:11pm today saying that Beltran is stepping down as manager of the Mets.
However I would think the Mets would have wanted to get out in front of this unless they are negotiating a settlement for him to leave and a new contract for a manager. Perez was passed over. Not sure he would want to be sloppy seconds especially after the entire coaching staff was selected for Beltran.
I think the Mets will take their time. MLB said no player will face discipline. The Mets are in the clear. However it is interesting MLB mentioned Beltran in the report considering players couldn't be disciplined. Somehow I have a feeling they were warning the Mets without warning the Mets. I think Beltran could have a case vs MLB especially if terminated.
At the end of the day I think it is 65/35 Beltran returns but it wouldn't shock me if he does resign.
Or am I missing something?
We have no idea how any of those are being viewed by the Mets so can't predict the outcome.
I do believe MLB may have unfairly released his name while shielding literally every other person involved that he shared status with in the game at the time. But you can't close that Pandora's Box now.
I get that Beltran lied when he was introduced to the media, or at minimum gave a very evasive answer, but this had nothing to do with the Mets and at the time the story was still developing. Is the expectation that he should have revealed every transgression he's ever seen or been a party to over his career?
What he did was wrong, he should apologize, and then everyone should move on - unless there's more to it specifically related to him. The only comparable player actions I can think of were Brady/deflategate, but obviously brady was much more of a principal in that.
I get that you don't want to have a guy around who lied about something, but the Wilpons have lied and been less than truthful about the Madoff situation for a decade now. BVW is lying every time he says that the Wilpons give him carte blanche to upgrade the team and there's nothing he can't do. All athletes and organizations engage in some level of competitive dishonesty and PR spin to the media. It is just abject hypocrisy if that's what gets him fired.
If he wasn't truthful with investigators or the team in internal conversations once this story progressed, or showed a pattern of dishonesty, that's possibly different.
And I say all this as someone who was not an enthusiastic supporter of hiring him in the first place. I wanted someone proven like Girardi or Baker or Showalter, so if they end up in that direction I think it may even improve the odds of the team winning. I just think it's a massive overreaction to can a guy who did something stupid a few years ago and then like everyone else in that organization didn't speak out about it.
Replacing will suck, but it needs to be done
Personally I like Beltran and would have him make some mea culpas about his involvement and move on. I have no idea what the Mets will do.
Replacing will suck, but it needs to be done
Idk... Plenty of former cheaters have MLB jobs. Half the Mets fan base was crying over not getting a guy to be the manager who most likely cheated during his playing days..now he's managing in Philly
That tweet followed up on Francesa’s message from Wednesday:
“(The Mets) are patiently(and rightly so) waiting for baseball to finish with Boston and make sure Beltran is in the clear (he should be). That nobody else is going to come forward. Then they will speak. Unless he is tagged, he will be manager.”
Link - ( New Window )
It certainly has a better look if it's Carlos that steps down (though the move would be questioned)
I just think for a brand new rookie manager with a win now team has to rise above "well, he wasn't sanctioned so no biggie"
This was a coordinated out in the open, tipping the scales ON the playing field.
Worse then doping and on the level of throwing games.
I am not sure who was in charge of the investigation. I have heard Torre at least had some role. The Yankees (mainly ex-players and Yankee fan commentators) have been the loudest critics. This reeks to me of publicly shaming someone who may have impacted Torre's former team. In fact the second loudest complainers have been the Dodgers. Hmm, Torre connections???
If the Mets really want to make some noise and be sand in the vasoline of MLB, they should strongly come out and say this happened while he was a player, he has been cleared by MLB and he is our manager going forward. Period.
The idea he now needs to come out and have a mea culpa to the media is BS. He owes no one. It happened, move on.
I find it funny because teams have been studying pitchers for tipping pitches for years using video. They have had men on second touch a shoulder or put one or two hands down signaling location or type of pitch. This is just a new form. It was found out. Remove the cameras or allow both teams cameras in all parks.
I honestly had more of an issue years back when an Astros employee broke into the Cardinals systems and stole their analytics and other info. That is a federal crime. Determining is it a fastball or curve or inside or out. C'mon. This isn't watergate.
No players are being disciplined, why should he? Crazy
No players are being disciplined, why should he? Crazy
Based on what has been reported so far, I believe that the calls for Beltran to be fired are ridiculous. I would also be concerned about whether a different manager can work with the coaching staff that has been assembled. To use an analogy to football, it is like hiring all of your assistants before hiring the Head Coach.
Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
As of last night #Mets weren’t reaching out to experienced managers such as Showalter or Dusty Baker. They were mulling whether to move forward with Beltran. Heard there was a lot of conflict in org about what the right way to go would be.
BVV step up and make a statement, NY Mets fans want to move forward
If he is fired/forced to resign, then you can thank the fucking NY media for antagonizing and sensationalizing this story to meet a juicy narrative for clicks/reads.
First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.
When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.
I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.
Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.
That tweet followed up on Francesa’s message from Wednesday:
“(The Mets) are patiently(and rightly so) waiting for baseball to finish with Boston and make sure Beltran is in the clear (he should be). That nobody else is going to come forward. Then they will speak. Unless he is tagged, he will be manager.” Link - ( New Window )
Now that you mention this, it makes alot of sense and would explain the delay.
First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.
When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.
I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.
Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.
The Mets look bad not issuing SOME sort of statement. It gives everyone a chance to run wild.
They have no consistent guiding principles which is why they almost always fail or flail inconsistently in different directions year to year and move to move.
They should have put out a statement immediately that they are reviewing the results of the MLB investigation, and consulting with them on all background info, and will have no comment until that review is complete. They support Carlos as manager and want to be as thorough as possible to help him move past this previous incident - which includes making sure there's a thorough understanding of what happened.
It wouldn't even be a bad idea to hire a trusted independent 3rd party to review the materials and make a recommendation. But to do that confidently you'd have to a core principle of wanting to get to the truth more than anything else, which of course the Wilpon's don't have.
Quote:
...to come out looking good.
First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.
When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.
I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.
Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.
The Mets look bad not issuing SOME sort of statement. It gives everyone a chance to run wild.
They need to issue SOME sort of statement, but they are in a no win situation even if they do. If they voice their unequivocal support for Beltran and new information comes to light in the future they look like idiots. If they don't voice their unequivocal support for Beltran they look like idiots.
But if they decide to keep him, I'll still be a Mets fan.
Dan where did you see that? I would LOVE to see that if that was on TV or a tweet.
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Jessica Mendoza took Fiers to task for being a whistleblower, quite the take from a Mets employee.
Dan where did you see that? I would LOVE to see that if that was on TV or a tweet.
Linked
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The difference in this situation was organizational support and the utilization of technology/video/FO personnel in real time. As a player that was something Beltran had 0 control over even though he did appear to knowingly and voluntarily participate.
So again - gray area. If he was candid with investigators and his involvement didn't go beyond the purpose of what hitters have tried to do since the beginning of the sport (get an advantage over pitchers) like all the rest of the players, then apologize and move on. If the team personnel hadn't been endorsing this they likely never go beyond the methods that are widely utilized by every other team's hitters without real time technology.
If he was not candid and showed dishonesty and a lack of integrity over the past few months, then there's a decision to make.
Really hope Mets dont miss out on a opportunity.
Beltran isn't just a new face manager either, he's a past superstar who played for this team and there is claim of loyalty trust on both sides which strengthens the argument to keep him.
The difference in this situation was organizational support and the utilization of technology/video/FO personnel in real time. As a player that was something Beltran had 0 control over even though he did appear to knowingly and voluntarily participate.
So again - gray area. If he was candid with investigators and his involvement didn't go beyond the purpose of what hitters have tried to do since the beginning of the sport (get an advantage over pitchers) like all the rest of the players, then apologize and move on. If the team personnel hadn't been endorsing this they likely never go beyond the methods that are widely utilized by every other team's hitters without real time technology.
If he was not candid and showed dishonesty and a lack of integrity over the past few months, then there's a decision to make.
It's a hard position to be in as a player. Because if you don't go along with it, the other players start looking at you as a potential rat. Beltran did not want to wind up like Serpico.
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In comment 14781491 Drewcon40 said:
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...to come out looking good.
First of all, they are well within their rights to take as much time as needed. The media or outside influences should not bully the Mets into any decision.
When ready, articulately address the stance that they are sticking with Beltran and reiterate that that how much time it took to make a decision is of no one's concern but the team.
I also bet that on opening day, Beltran will get about as big a cheer as anyone that day.
Hopefully the Cohen sale will shortly follow and Mets fans can look back on this time as a positive.
The Mets look bad not issuing SOME sort of statement. It gives everyone a chance to run wild.
They need to issue SOME sort of statement, but they are in a no win situation even if they do. If they voice their unequivocal support for Beltran and new information comes to light in the future they look like idiots. If they don't voice their unequivocal support for Beltran they look like idiots.
MLB has issued a really strongly worded gag order to all teams on this scandal. Supposedly breaking it will be met just as severely as the punishment the Stros got if not harsher.
I'd bet that's a big part of why the Mets haven't issued any statement. Probably waiting on MLB to finish with the Red Sox and see if they then move on to Beltran or not.
"It's not ideal," Henry said. "It's not what we would like to be doing at this point. We were all surprised to read this report on Monday. But this is ... I don't know if you would call it a logical conclusion, but this is where we are as a result of that."
"Regarding the ongoing investigation here in Boston, MLB is doing a thorough investigation -- as thorough as what took place in Houston -- and we believe that all the facts will be ascertained," Henry read from a prepared statement. "We would ask that everyone reserve judgment until MLB completes its investigation and determines whether rules were violated."
There is absolutely nothing stopping the Mets from commenting and the Red Sox investigation was opened on 1/7 so if the Mets are waiting that out... dumb, dumb, dumb.
You may be right but I took it as they don't want any part of the scandal to be talked about. Not only the punishments but the ongoing process as well.
No doubt the Sox had to say something in regards to Cora stepping down but I'd bet that was cleared with MLB and their were limits to what they could say.
But that's besides the point because the behavior that took it to the level of cheating (insertion of technology) was out of his control. That is on the team. And we also already know the highest levels of the FO was pushing the team personnel to gain an edge however they can by using cameras and other technology.
Beltran's participation may have been knowing, enthusiastic, and enormously helpful in their scheme's success, but it doesn't change the fact that if the FO hadn't been actively involved it seems unlikely the illegal component (cameras) would have been possible.
But that's besides the point because the behavior that took it to the level of cheating (insertion of technology) was out of his control. That is on the team. And we also already know the highest levels of the FO was pushing the team personnel to gain an edge however they can by using cameras and other technology.
Beltran's participation may have been knowing, enthusiastic, and enormously helpful in their scheme's success, but it doesn't change the fact that if the FO hadn't been actively involved it seems unlikely the illegal component (cameras) would have been possible.
Eric,
I think these are 2 different issues. I'm simply stating based on everything we have heard Beltran was not in any way "pressured" into this. I want him retained but I also understand he was very much involved (as were other players). He wasn't an angel pressured to do bad things by his very close friend Alex Cora.
Viewed as an "official" Mets response.
So, if he was getting signs, it certainly didn't help him very much
So, if he was getting signs, it certainly didn't help him very much
his home/road splits were nearly identical too, not that it matters, but it appears he had no individual benefit.
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Wonder how Cohen interprets all of this
Any idea why they did this?
He's a tool but there's zero wrong with that response. Reporter has to ask the question if he's doing his job, but that kind of answer has to be expected.
Unreal
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has told the Mets he believes he should step down. Beltran out.
Unreal
Never a dull moment in New York (N) Baseball
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since he has always been searching for an edge like that, like many other hitters both on the Astros and other teams.
But that's besides the point because the behavior that took it to the level of cheating (insertion of technology) was out of his control. That is on the team. And we also already know the highest levels of the FO was pushing the team personnel to gain an edge however they can by using cameras and other technology.
Beltran's participation may have been knowing, enthusiastic, and enormously helpful in their scheme's success, but it doesn't change the fact that if the FO hadn't been actively involved it seems unlikely the illegal component (cameras) would have been possible.
Eric,
I think these are 2 different issues. I'm simply stating based on everything we have heard Beltran was not in any way "pressured" into this. I want him retained but I also understand he was very much involved (as were other players). He wasn't an angel pressured to do bad things by his very close friend Alex Cora.
DMM - am I wrong or wasn't there an email from the Astros GM (or AGM) sending a note to his front office encouraging the usage of aggressive filming tactics well in advance of whenever this system rolled out?
I don't care what Beltran's moral compass/enthusiasm level was to take part in the scheme. My point is the active push from the highest levels of the houston front office is the core factor in this whole event crossing the line from gamesmanship to breaking rules (technology). I don't think it matters at all how eager the participating players were to take part in it. They are players who want to win, paid to at least in part listen to the direction they are receiving from management. Not to make moral judgements on where the line is, which is especially different if it's contrary to what your bosses are telling you to do. Mike Fiers deserves commendation for eventually going public and for having moral clarity to see what others should have had in the moment but even he took years to blow the whistle.
Joel Sherman
@Joelsherman1
As of last night #Mets weren’t reaching out to experienced managers such as Showalter or Dusty Baker. They were mulling whether to move forward with Beltran. Heard there was a lot of conflict in org about what the right way to go would be.
Dan. Is it still weak and fake ?
Dan. You said I reported fake news yesterday and it was weak
Still think that ?
@mikemayerMMO
· 10h
Folks, Mets catcher prospect Francisco Alvarez will play the entire 2020 season at 18 years old. https://twitter.com/mikemayerMMO/s
Christopher Soto
@SotoC803
Adley Rustchmann was the CLEAR cut #1 prospect in last year's draft......and Alvarez already matches him on both his hit tool and arm strength despite being 4 years younger than him.
Strong possibility that Alvarez ends up having 60 grades for his power and fielding very soon.
@mikemayerMMO
· 10h
Top 10 catching prospects in baseball according to @MLBPipeline:
1 Adley Rutschman
2 Joey Bart
3 Sean Murphy
4 Luis Campusano
5 FRANCISCO ALVAREZ
6 Shea Langeliers
7 Keibert Ruiz
8 Sam Huff
9 Daulton Varsho
10 Miguel Amaya
https://mlb.com/news/top-catch
Viewed as an "official" Mets response.
Well, she really should shut the hell up, my goodness.
A former softball player, I mean really?
Brodie, the Boy Wonder may want to re-consider
having her around in any capacity. She does work for ESPN, so at times, it can be a conflict of interest.
This is what he said:
"Jessica was speaking as an ESPN analyst, not as a spokesperson for the Mets,” Van Wagenen said.
“I have not had the opportunity to speak with her yet.”