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Giants were denied permission to interview Bills Daboll

LarmerTJR : 1/15/2020 11:07 pm
For OC position. Looks like the Bills said no.
Someone educate the uneducated  
Knineteen : 1/15/2020 11:08 pm : link
what exactly does that mean? Why would the Bills do this? What are the repercussions?
RE: Someone educate the uneducated  
BlackLight : 1/15/2020 11:11 pm : link
In comment 14781248 Knineteen said:
Quote:
what exactly does that mean? Why would the Bills do this? What are the repercussions?


Doubt there are any repercussions. Buffalo didn't want to lose Daboll as their OC. It was their prerogative to block the interview, and so they did.
Heís already an OC with the Bills.  
Ace718 : 1/15/2020 11:12 pm : link
Why would they allow him to interview for a same position with another team while heís under contract? Itís different if it was for a higher up position
RE: Someone educate the uneducated  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/15/2020 11:13 pm : link
In comment 14781248 Knineteen said:
Quote:
what exactly does that mean? Why would the Bills do this? What are the repercussions?


OC and DC coach positions are no longer considered an upward move from any other position coach. So teams can refuse to allow their position coaches to interview with other clubs for "coordinator" positions, if they so choose.

At least that's what I read here recently...
RE: Someone educate the uneducated  
bw in dc : 1/15/2020 11:17 pm : link
In comment 14781248 Knineteen said:
Quote:
what exactly does that mean? Why would the Bills do this? What are the repercussions?


The coach, in this case Daboll, was under contract with the Bills. So the team has the right to refuse.
It's not a 'promotion' for Daboll and he's under contract...  
Torrag : 1/15/2020 11:18 pm : link
so the Bills are within their rights under league rules to deny the interview. It's that simple.
RE: RE: Someone educate the uneducated  
Ace718 : 1/15/2020 11:19 pm : link
In comment 14781251 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14781248 Knineteen said:


Quote:


what exactly does that mean? Why would the Bills do this? What are the repercussions?



OC and DC coach positions are no longer considered an upward move from any other position coach. So teams can refuse to allow their position coaches to interview with other clubs for "coordinator" positions, if they so choose.

At least that's what I read here recently...

Heís already the OC with the Bills. Not a position coach.
He did interview for the head coaching position with the Browns  
Ace718 : 1/15/2020 11:21 pm : link
Apparently did well in the interview. Judge wanted him cause they were together on the Pats staff for a few years.
From the NFL's anti-tampering protocols...  
bw in dc : 1/15/2020 11:22 pm : link
for lateral moves:

Quote:
If an inquiring club wishes to discuss an assistant coaching position with an assistant coach who is under contract to another club at any time
prior to the opening of the employer clubís training camp, it will be considered a
lateral move, and the employer club is under no obligation to grant the assistant
coach permission to discuss the position with the interested club. At the
discretion of the employer club, however, such permission may be voluntarily
granted.
You really  
YANKEE28 : 1/15/2020 11:39 pm : link
Need to attach the whole article from Ralph V
RE: He did interview for the head coaching position with the Browns  
BlueLou'sBack : 1/15/2020 11:57 pm : link
In comment 14781259 Ace718 said:
Quote:
Apparently did well in the interview. Judge wanted him cause they were together on the Pats staff for a few years.


The Bills had no right to block him from interviewing for an HC position, which is considered a promotion.
RE: You really  
LarmerTJR : 1/16/2020 12:12 am : link
Why? I got a notification from The Score app and posted the news.


In comment 14781268 YANKEE28 said:
Quote:
Need to attach the whole article from Ralph V
Surely the Giants knew this. ...  
Manny in CA : 1/16/2020 12:30 am : link

Why would they even bother ?

Their taking Graham away from the Dolphins for a lateral position. I don't think I've seen this before (unless somehow they had inside info that he was getting canned)

And that is called meddling. I don't think the Commish looks at that very kindly.
RE: RE: RE: Someone educate the uneducated  
Milton : 1/16/2020 12:56 am : link
In comment 14781257 Ace718 said:
Quote:
Heís already the OC with the Bills. Not a position coach.
It wouldn't matter either way. Only head coach is considered a promotion.

p.s.--No surprise that the Bills denied permission. The question is why did the Dolphins allow Graham to interview and leave? It wasn't because he was given the title Asst Head Coach. For whatever reason, Flores did not consider Graham a good fit with the Dolphins. Maybe he preferred the LB coach that he promoted to DC. Maybe he wanted to take over defensive playcalling and didn't want Graham to suffer the demotion in responsibilities. Whatever Flores's reasoning for allowing Graham to leave, clearly it wasn't an issue that concerned Judge.
RE: Surely the Giants knew this. ...  
Milton : 1/16/2020 12:57 am : link
In comment 14781284 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Why would they even bother ?

Their taking Graham away from the Dolphins for a lateral position. I don't think I've seen this before (unless somehow they had inside info that he was getting canned)

And that is called meddling. I don't think the Commish looks at that very kindly.
What's called meddling? They asked permission of both the Dolphins and Bills. The Dolphins granted permission, the Bills did not. That's called proper protocol.
Linking to the entire article  
cosmicj : 1/16/2020 4:39 am : link
Daboll was my preference for Giants HC, fwiw.
Daboll Vacchiano - ( New Window )
I wouldnít mind seeing the giants go  
NikkiMac : 1/16/2020 5:26 am : link
After the OC Arthur Smith from the titans
Just a question  
Tuckrule : 1/16/2020 6:26 am : link
If you ask permission to interview a staffer under contract for upgraded position is the team allowed to block that interview? Can they only block you if itís a lateral move?
RE: Just a question  
Big Rick in FL : 1/16/2020 6:37 am : link
In comment 14781311 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
If you ask permission to interview a staffer under contract for upgraded position is the team allowed to block that interview? Can they only block you if itís a lateral move?


No. They can't block them if it's promotion. Which is only HC. All position coaches and coordinators are grouped together. So if the Giants requested an interview with a RB coach for their OC position the other team could deny permission because the NFL considers it a lateral move.

OC, DC, QB/RB/WR/TE/OL Coach, DL/LB/DB coach, assistant HC etc etc = lateral move.
RE: Surely the Giants knew this. ...  
Saquads26 : 1/16/2020 7:06 am : link
In comment 14781284 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Why would they even bother ?

Their taking Graham away from the Dolphins for a lateral position. I don't think I've seen this before (unless somehow they had inside info that he was getting canned)

And that is called meddling. I don't think the Commish looks at that very kindly.


Surely you jest
RE: RE: RE: RE: Someone educate the uneducated  
LakeGeorgeGiant : 1/16/2020 7:13 am : link
In comment 14781289 Milton said:
Quote:
In comment 14781257 Ace718 said:


Quote:


Heís already the OC with the Bills. Not a position coach.

It wouldn't matter either way. Only head coach is considered a promotion.

p.s.--No surprise that the Bills denied permission. The question is why did the Dolphins allow Graham to interview and leave? It wasn't because he was given the title Asst Head Coach. For whatever reason, Flores did not consider Graham a good fit with the Dolphins. Maybe he preferred the LB coach that he promoted to DC. Maybe he wanted to take over defensive playcalling and didn't want Graham to suffer the demotion in responsibilities. Whatever Flores's reasoning for allowing Graham to leave, clearly it wasn't an issue that concerned Judge.


With Graham I suspect that the Dolphins knew about the assistant hc title and allowed the interview as a professional courtesy to Graham even if it would have been within their rights to block it. This does happen.

Not sure why we are collectively befuddled over that one.

RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Someone educate the uneducated  
madeinstars : 1/16/2020 7:29 am : link
In comment 14781326 LakeGeorgeGiant said:
Quote:
In comment 14781289 Milton said:


Quote:


In comment 14781257 Ace718 said:


Quote:


Heís already the OC with the Bills. Not a position coach.

It wouldn't matter either way. Only head coach is considered a promotion.

p.s.--No surprise that the Bills denied permission. The question is why did the Dolphins allow Graham to interview and leave? It wasn't because he was given the title Asst Head Coach. For whatever reason, Flores did not consider Graham a good fit with the Dolphins. Maybe he preferred the LB coach that he promoted to DC. Maybe he wanted to take over defensive playcalling and didn't want Graham to suffer the demotion in responsibilities. Whatever Flores's reasoning for allowing Graham to leave, clearly it wasn't an issue that concerned Judge.



With Graham I suspect that the Dolphins knew about the assistant hc title and allowed the interview as a professional courtesy to Graham even if it would have been within their rights to block it. This does happen.

Not sure why we are collectively befuddled over that one.


The title of assistant HC doesn't mean anything in the NFL. Also it's a cutthroat business. There is no way the Dolphins would allow Graham to interview if they thought he was the best DC they could wish to have. That is just simply not how it works. No matter how friendly Judge and Flores are with each other, Flores' job is on the line and if he thought he would have a better chance at keeping his job with Graham he wouldn't have allowed the Giants to poach him.

Not sure why this board seems to think otherwise.
Very basic stuff here.  
an_idol_mind : 1/16/2020 7:29 am : link
If a coach is under contact, a team can block an interview. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

There's nothing unusual here. The Giants have also blocked interviews on occasion, but they have also allowed interviews for lateral moves.
RE: Just a question  
johnnyb : 1/16/2020 7:44 am : link
In comment 14781311 Tuckrule said:
Quote:
If you ask permission to interview a staffer under contract for upgraded position is the team allowed to block that interview? Can they only block you if itís a lateral move?


This from The Athletic this morning:

To clarify a common misconception: NFL teams must grant interview requests for their assistants for head coaching jobs. But there is no requirement for teams to allow assistants to interview for other assistant jobs, even if the move would be considered a promotion. So a position coach and a coordinator are considered equal by the league in this context.
Iím glad DaBoll is not involved  
5BowlsSoon : 1/16/2020 7:52 am : link
Iím not impressed with Bills offense, but not sure that is all on him. OL was poor last year, got better this year. No great WRs, but two okay WRs.
Even if the Giants expected to be turned down.  
Marty in Albany : 1/16/2020 8:27 am : link
1. You never know, Buffalo might unexpectedly agree.

2. Down the road, Daboll will know that he might get a job with Judge, whenever that might be. That can't hurt Daboll or the Giants.

3. The guy that the Giants actually interview for the job will know that he was not the Giants' first choice. That will change the dynamics of their interview. A) It may make it seem like the Giants might refuse to pay the guy top dollar because he's not their first choice, or B) It might make it seem like the Giants are desperate and ARE willing to pay top dollar.
Why do we care?  
EricJ : 1/16/2020 8:35 am : link
The Bill's offense was not very creative...
Did This Happen?  
Samiam : 1/16/2020 8:47 am : link
Before they interviewed Garrett or after?
RE: Surely the Giants knew this. ...  
FatMan in Charlotte : 1/16/2020 8:54 am : link
In comment 14781284 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Why would they even bother ?

Their taking Graham away from the Dolphins for a lateral position. I don't think I've seen this before (unless somehow they had inside info that he was getting canned)

And that is called meddling. I don't think the Commish looks at that very kindly.


Are you ever serious?

Just doing a cursory look of coaching moves, there have been multiple - and usually more than 3 lateral moves by assistants or position coaches every year going back to 2013 (which was probably a waste of the 3 minutes doing that exercise in the first place).

You've never seen that before??

Holy shit.
RE: Why do we care?  
jcn56 : 1/16/2020 9:09 am : link
In comment 14781376 EricJ said:
Quote:
The Bill's offense was not very creative...


Daboll did good enough work there with Josh Allen to earn HC interviews. He would have been a a good get for OC.

That said, it was worth a shot but I'm sure the Giants knew the Bills were going to tell them to go pound sand.
RE: Why do we care?  
Eli2020 : 1/16/2020 9:14 am : link
In comment 14781376 EricJ said:
Quote:
The Bill's offense was not very creative...



Ha, this one got me. Go watch the first drive of the Bills-Texans game and get back to me.
Also we have no idea what contractual provisions  
bhill410 : 1/16/2020 9:47 am : link
They have in their contracts. Flores was a defensive coach no? His DC could easily have had a clause permitting him to interview where he would have play calling autonomy or whatever.
RE: RE: Someone educate the uneducated  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/16/2020 9:54 am : link
In comment 14781251 BlueLou'sBack said:
Quote:
In comment 14781248 Knineteen said:


Quote:


what exactly does that mean? Why would the Bills do this? What are the repercussions?



OC and DC coach positions are no longer considered an upward move from any other position coach. So teams can refuse to allow their position coaches to interview with other clubs for "coordinator" positions, if they so choose.

At least that's what I read here recently...

That's absolutely correct, although doesn't really even apply here because Daboll is already the Bills OC.

I like the fact that Judge is willing to reach out to guys in lateral positions. It's more of a longshot to pursue them, but it shows that he doesn't feel like he has to limit his own search strictly to those below the position or currently out of work.
RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: RE: Someone educate the uneducated  
GloryDayz : 1/16/2020 9:55 am : link
In comment 14781334 madeinstars said:
Quote:
In comment 14781326 LakeGeorgeGiant said:


Quote:


In comment 14781289 Milton said:


Quote:


In comment 14781257 Ace718 said:


Quote:


Heís already the OC with the Bills. Not a position coach.

It wouldn't matter either way. Only head coach is considered a promotion.

p.s.--No surprise that the Bills denied permission. The question is why did the Dolphins allow Graham to interview and leave? It wasn't because he was given the title Asst Head Coach. For whatever reason, Flores did not consider Graham a good fit with the Dolphins. Maybe he preferred the LB coach that he promoted to DC. Maybe he wanted to take over defensive playcalling and didn't want Graham to suffer the demotion in responsibilities. Whatever Flores's reasoning for allowing Graham to leave, clearly it wasn't an issue that concerned Judge.



With Graham I suspect that the Dolphins knew about the assistant hc title and allowed the interview as a professional courtesy to Graham even if it would have been within their rights to block it. This does happen.

Not sure why we are collectively befuddled over that one.




The title of assistant HC doesn't mean anything in the NFL. Also it's a cutthroat business. There is no way the Dolphins would allow Graham to interview if they thought he was the best DC they could wish to have. That is just simply not how it works. No matter how friendly Judge and Flores are with each other, Flores' job is on the line and if he thought he would have a better chance at keeping his job with Graham he wouldn't have allowed the Giants to poach him.

Not sure why this board seems to think otherwise.


This is my concern with the Graham hiring.... why would Flores let him go? Heís not obliged to do so, legally or ethically.

It may simply be a case of Flores & Graham not seeing eye to eye or not getting along, which would be fine, it happens. I just hope Flores didnít think Graham was up to the job. Teams donít typically let good guys go unless they have to.



Dolphins defense was ranked last in the NFL  
Vanzetti : 1/16/2020 9:59 am : link
How many coordinators survive that? Especially young ones

Obviously, Judge thinks he is better than his record but the NFL is a results business and no young coordinator whose unit finished last is going to be a hot commodity
RE: It's not a 'promotion' for Daboll and he's under contract...  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/16/2020 9:59 am : link
In comment 14781255 Torrag said:
Quote:
so the Bills are within their rights under league rules to deny the interview. It's that simple.

The promotion part is irrelevant at the assistant coach level.

It's not a head coach position and he's under contract. It's that simple.
RE: Surely the Giants knew this. ...  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/16/2020 10:01 am : link
In comment 14781284 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Why would they even bother ?

Their taking Graham away from the Dolphins for a lateral position. I don't think I've seen this before (unless somehow they had inside info that he was getting canned)

And that is called meddling. I don't think the Commish looks at that very kindly.

It's called meddling?

The commissioner doesn't do a thing about it if a team follows the proper protocol and requests permission.

You don't have to make it up as you go along - you can actually learn the rules, terms, etc.
RE: Surely the Giants knew this. ...  
Leg of Theismann : 1/16/2020 10:24 am : link
In comment 14781284 Manny in CA said:
Quote:

Why would they even bother ?

Their taking Graham away from the Dolphins for a lateral position. I don't think I've seen this before (unless somehow they had inside info that he was getting canned)

And that is called meddling. I don't think the Commish looks at that very kindly.


Are you high?
Not good for morale to deny.  
Thegratefulhead : 1/16/2020 10:55 am : link
If an employee considers it a promotion and you deny them... You're gonna stop me from taking a job that I consider a promotion that will pay me more money a place that I would really rather be.... You're gonna keep me here? Can't imagine that person sleeps at work for you anymore.
I dunno I'm always happy for bills fans  
idiotsavant : 1/16/2020 11:03 am : link
Up there in cold, no job land, when the bills are playing well.

Great fans bills fans.

Ketchup on hotdogs notwithstanding
RE: Very basic stuff here.  
Knineteen : 1/16/2020 11:12 am : link
In comment 14781335 an_idol_mind said:
Quote:
If a coach is under contact, a team can block an interview. Sometimes they do, sometimes they don't.

Well, that's not very basic at all. Why would a team allow ANY coach to be interviewed? Doesn't that show the employer doesn't really care about the employee if they are will to expose themselves to losing said employee?

Kind of negates the purpose of the contract, no?

Upward, I understand. Lateral, makes no sense.
RE: RE: Very basic stuff here.  
an_idol_mind : 1/16/2020 11:19 am : link
In comment 14781623 Knineteen said:
Quote:
Why would a team allow ANY coach to be interviewed? Doesn't that show the employer doesn't really care about the employee if they are will to expose themselves to losing said employee?

Kind of negates the purpose of the contract, no?

Upward, I understand. Lateral, makes no sense.


The business deals with people. Sometimes they're inconsistent. Sometimes they want something their current job isn't offering, or they stop being the best fit for the situation. If the employer blocks everybody, they might get stuck with the reputation of not caring about their employees.

In the case of Graham, the Dolphins have a defensive assistant who is apparently highly regarded. Presumably, it's an opportunity to move that guy up the chain.

On the flip side, back in 2009 the Giants blocked Giunta from interviewing for a defensive coordinator position because they had already lost Spagnuolo and wanted to maintain some consistency on the defensive side of the ball.

There are a lot of factors, both practical and human, when it comes to this stuff. There's no one formula that teams follow.
Daboll didn't want to work with Gettleman  
Jimmy Googs : 1/16/2020 11:27 am : link
so he asked the Bills to deny the request and get him off the hook...
Hope they can get Garrett in here  
ghost718 : 1/16/2020 11:52 am : link
They might need him
'The promotion part is irrelevant at the assistant coach level'  
Torrag : 1/16/2020 12:33 pm : link
The promotion part is the relevant part. It's the reason he wasn't allowed to interview because it isn't a promotion. That was the entire point of my post.

Take a reading comprehension course or something. Please.
RE: RE: Just a question  
Tuckrule : 1/16/2020 12:38 pm : link
In comment 14781339 johnnyb said:
Quote:
In comment 14781311 Tuckrule said:


Quote:


If you ask permission to interview a staffer under contract for upgraded position is the team allowed to block that interview? Can they only block you if itís a lateral move?



This from The Athletic this morning:

To clarify a common misconception: NFL teams must grant interview requests for their assistants for head coaching jobs. But there is no requirement for teams to allow assistants to interview for other assistant jobs, even if the move would be considered a promotion. So a position coach and a coordinator are considered equal by the league in this context.


Thanks for the info
Hire Garrett Callahan keep Shula special assist  
LT56GOAT : 1/16/2020 1:34 pm : link
We were told Judge hire makes sense if surrounds himself some adept OC, DC. Instead Judge follows path that doomed other Patriot prodegies hiring groupies instead winning coaches. We don't care if you work in building till 4am we want winning football. How the heck let Garrett who coached against NFC 10 years with success luvs Giants
and Callahan great coach as OC line leave the building???? Are we really going into 2020 with worst DC statistically at Miami and Freddie Kitchin OC worst offense just because buddies of Judge. Mara Gettleman step in tell the pup to hire Garrett jumping jacks good diet and working out all day not going win games but accomplished coaches will.
RE: RE: RE: Very basic stuff here.  
Knineteen : 1/16/2020 2:11 pm : link
In comment 14781640 an_idol_mind said:
Quote:
The business deals with people. Sometimes they're inconsistent. Sometimes they want something their current job isn't offering, or they stop being the best fit for the situation. If the employer blocks everybody, they might get stuck with the reputation of not caring about their employees.

I get this, but then why keep an employee who isn't a good fit? That's what I don't understand.

In the real world, most people don't tell their employer they are actively looking for another job. They simply procure employment elsewhere and put in their two weeks.
It would create a pretty odd rift if I told my boss that I'm actively looking for another job but can't find anything.
RE: 'The promotion part is irrelevant at the assistant coach level'  
ron mexico : 1/16/2020 2:45 pm : link
In comment 14781837 Torrag said:
Quote:
The promotion part is the relevant part. It's the reason he wasn't allowed to interview because it isn't a promotion. That was the entire point of my post.

Take a reading comprehension course or something. Please.


you still need to ask and be granted permission to interview some under contract for a promotion.

In practice no one denies those requests, but they could.

RE: 'The promotion part is irrelevant at the assistant coach level'  
Gatorade Dunk : 1/16/2020 6:36 pm : link
In comment 14781837 Torrag said:
Quote:
The promotion part is the relevant part. It's the reason he wasn't allowed to interview because it isn't a promotion. That was the entire point of my post.

Take a reading comprehension course or something. Please.

I'll take a reading comprehension course when you learn how to use the reply function - deal?

The way you worded it made it sound - much like many confused fans seem to believe - that if it was a promotion for Daboll (if, for example, he was a QB coach instead of an OC already), that he'd have been allowed to interview. That's simply not the case. He could be blocked for anything other than a HC position even if he was the assistant quality control coach. That was simply the clarification that I was adding to your post, because you didn't bother to actually explain what you were saying, as usual.
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