Yet, players that are still on that Astros rosters go unscathed.
With all the outrage that is out there in the public over this whole thing, away fans better berate the Astros whenever they are on the road this year.
seriously fuck all NY Media always stirring shit up for a story
We see the outcome with Fred, but from what you read about Cohen, he seems like the kind of guy that would have gotten in front of any microphone to back his guy.
is not a Mets fan, I think this is an stupid by the team. Where is the punishment for the other players who were involved? Should they get cut/waived now?
I'd rather replace him now than hear this shit all season...
are you fucking kidding?, 30 days from ST what prospective manager like Buck will want to take a job where you were not involved with any of the decisions (coaches, players, etc)
having his name mentioned fucking once in a report? awful
Will the Mets ball up and let Jeff (all about integrity) Wilpon speak about this or will BVW get stuck answering all of the questions.
This is a total circle jerk. I wasn't in favor of hiring Beltran but now that they did felt they should have stuck with him. Beltran's MLB career is now over so I doubt he walked away hat in hand. I am sure he will be getting paid something meaning the Mets in 2020 will be paying 3 managers (2 not to manage team).
Only cares about PR and yet more times than not he makes decisions that give him worse PR than there otherwise would have been.
Now I have no idea what in terms of who the manager will be. There are obvious names out there available but knowing the Mets they'll do something stupid.
RE: RE: RE: Great, now I expect the media and Yankee fans to continue to
piss and moan and force all of the other players on those Astros rosters to step down and away from the game.
I'll wait........
Yes, Yankees fans forced Beltran to step down. That was totally how it went down.
Really top-notch read on the situation...
It's funny how public perception works...right?
Phi is right, I spent the last 2 days attentively listening to MLB radio in fear of what just occurred and the callers calling in from NY were mostly Yankee fans that were "outraged over cheating" which i'm sorry
I find is really fucking hypocritical.
with social media and everyone having the need to voice their bloated opinions as fact and having an owner who cries every time someone criticizes his decision making
Beltran was toast
RE: I'd rather replace him now than hear this shit all season...
is not a Mets fan, I think this is an stupid by the team. Where is the punishment for the other players who were involved? Should they get cut/waived now?
Are they all in leadership positions? If so, then they should.
What did the Mets do wrong here - please educate me.
Ya, it sucks and is typical of the misfortune that has befallen this team. But this story broke AFTER he had been hired. What info did the Mets have at the time of the hire that should have led them to pass over Beltran? I'm not aware of any. And now that the report has been released, what choice do they have but to look elsewhere? This would not have blown over. Most fans are rightfully pissed about what he and his teammates were doing. He would be asked about it all year long and, as far as we know. he doesn't have real good answers. It would be a huge distraction all year, to him and the players.
I hate Wilpon as much as the next Mets fan, but I fail to see how any of this is his fault.
to me that the MLB wanted to mention all of the involved players in the report but couldn't or was afraid to because of the player's union. Since Beltran is a former player and no longer covered by the union, he was fair game.
Unless Beltran was going to miss time due to suspension (which he wasn't), there was no need to make the move. Just have the balls to get in front of the microphones and say, "Carlos understands the rules of the league and the requirements/expectations for being a manager of this franchise."
No need to offer media people a pound of flesh.
this organization is so tiring - agree with all go get Buck (or Dusty)
Only this team can bungle things so poorly, all the freaking time.
he was not my first choice at all and I had still had concerns about him as manager, but I feel bad for Beltran in all this. He got a very raw deal with the timing of everything. Had it come out prior he may have been able to disarm it and had it come out after his performance would have been able to give him some cushion (or not).
Instead he gets screwed the worst out of anyone in this mess in losing a job opportunity he may never get again, including the organization that was in full throated endorsement of the sign stealing operation at the highest levels.
This is b.s. so when Hinchs suspension is over and he is available to coach again which the so called experts say he will. How is ok to then hire Hinch. Stupid. The Wilsons caved to the media.
This is b.s. so when Hinchs suspension is over and he is available to coach again which the so called experts say he will. How is ok to then hire Hinch. Stupid. The Wilsons caved to the media.
This would have hung over the Mets all season. Not a way to start off with a new manager. And let's see what happens with Hinch in actuality. Even though it looks like Cora was the "mastermind", Hinch didn't stop it even if he wasn't behind or smashed a TV. If he was so against it, he should have said to knock it off and then fired Cora when it kept going on. He didn't. And he acted like a prick in the ALCS when it was brought up. Plus, when more comes out that they were still doing it in 2019 with buzzers, Hinch will end up with the same death penalty that Cora is about to get.
to me that the MLB wanted to mention all of the involved players in the report but couldn't or was afraid to because of the player's union. Since Beltran is a former player and no longer covered by the union, he was fair game.
Give me Buck and all will be fine.
No chance, Mr. wants to come in the managers office whenever he wants
Is hiring Buck
To the people saying this was going to get ugly...exactly how? Would have blown over in a week. The Mets should know bad PR better than anyone.
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
Beltran was going to survive this. This scandal is a huge black eye on baseball and no way was a rookie manager who was a big part of the cheating operation going to keep his job.
The players haven't been disciplined because Manfred wants nothing to do with going head to head against the players association over things like this. Managers dont get that protection.
I dont think the Mets had any choice. Why would they keep a rookie manager as manager when he lost all credibility before they even started spring training
1. Rojas (ick, now I want a strong vet leader after this circus)
2. Terry Collins (never a fan, but now I think this organization needs this type)
3. Hensley Meulens (doesn't seem to have that Wilpon love like Rojas et al.)
4. David Wright (in house like Beltran)
5. Vet Showalter/Baker/etc
To the people saying this was going to get ugly...exactly how? Would have blown over in a week. The Mets should know bad PR better than anyone.
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
Are you not aware of how much attention this has already gotten from fans, media and players?
This is Black Sox bad. Worse than the PED era to people who don't cheat.
Beltran was going to survive this. This scandal is a huge black eye on baseball and no way was a rookie manager who was a big part of the cheating operation going to keep his job.
The players haven't been disciplined because Manfred wants nothing to do with going head to head against the players association over things like this. Managers dont get that protection.
I dont think the Mets had any choice. Why would they keep a rookie manager as manager when he lost all credibility before they even started spring training
Beltran was going to survive this. This scandal is a huge black eye on baseball and no way was a rookie manager who was a big part of the cheating operation going to keep his job.
The players haven't been disciplined because Manfred wants nothing to do with going head to head against the players association over things like this. Managers dont get that protection.
I dont think the Mets had any choice. Why would they keep a rookie manager as manager when he lost all credibility before they even started spring training
This would have blown over by next weekend or even sooner if the Mets released a statement in support of Beltran. What the hell are you talking about?
they have no true north star, they have no core values, they have only half-hearted attempts to "win" without investing any of the necessary reforms to make it happen. As much as people bitch about the Mara's, the Wilpons are an example of what a truly f'd up organization looks like. The mistakes are a feature, not a bug.
They hired BVW a year ago bc he sold them by being media savvy, not with any actual credentials.
BVW bought in on Beltran for a lot of reasons, but a few of them were that he was willing to fit into the mets f'd up hierarchy, he was media friendly, and he was cheap.
2 of those 3 just led to him being canned - so we are where we are again because of the Wilpon culture of doing business.
If that culture was actual no nonsense winning Joe Girardi would have been named manager last summer.
Funny how Mickey Callaway didn't get fired when he basically threatened a reporter and then evolved his story of what happened over 2-3 days.
To the people saying this was going to get ugly...exactly how? Would have blown over in a week. The Mets should know bad PR better than anyone.
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
No way this blows over in a week. Let's see what happens when the full report is out. They haven't even finished the investigation of the 2018 Red Sox. I'm sure MLB has cozied up to the owners to let them know where this is going. They can't suspend all the players, so they have to go after management. The Astros thing was pretty clearly orchestrated. They announce the suspension and the owner fires them in a press conference less than an hour later. That was staged so the owner can come in and say he didn't know what his employees were doing and fired them and now they are starting over.
The Red Sox had to respond in kind with Cora and now the trickle down to the Mets. This might well be the biggest overall scandal in MLB history when it's all said and done. It's one thing for a guy to roid up and break records (see Bonds). His punishment is he's out of the Hall and everyone knows he cheated. The Astros and Red Sox won championships. The Astros clearly have a huge asterisk on them for 2017. Let's see what comes out about Boston to see if the same thing happens to them. And Jomboy, who has been ahead of all this as the reporting came out (and by indications was being leaked stuff himself to look for because organizations wanted to get after Houston...not just the Yankees, and he kept the pressure on MLB not to bury this) and he said he has heard from several sources that the buzzer story on Houston was true in 2019. If you found out that Altuve knew that Chapman was throwing an offspeed pitch in Game 6, would anyone be surprised? No, because Houston is a proven dirty organization.
You have a fairly new commissioner, you have competition for advertisers and a young audience, no one wants the feel that teams are using technology to cheat to this level. So the hammer is coming down. The Mets happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with Beltran.
@jaysonst
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First observation about Carlos Beltran:
Why was he the only player mentioned in Rob Manfred's Astros verdict?
Because MLB clearly was stating: "He lied about this. We promised him immunity so we can't suspend him. But we want the world to know he lied."
10:30 AM - 16 Jan 2020
I don't agree with Stark's take here. So everyone from that 2017 team who had anything to do with this, except Beltran, decided to rat on Cora and Hinch?
Beltran was going to survive this. This scandal is a huge black eye on baseball and no way was a rookie manager who was a big part of the cheating operation going to keep his job.
The players haven't been disciplined because Manfred wants nothing to do with going head to head against the players association over things like this. Managers dont get that protection.
I dont think the Mets had any choice. Why would they keep a rookie manager as manager when he lost all credibility before they even started spring training
With whom did he lose credibility? He hasn't even started the job yet. Being fully aware of what's expected, he should've been allowed to do the job.
To the people saying this was going to get ugly...exactly how? Would have blown over in a week. The Mets should know bad PR better than anyone.
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
Are you not aware of how much attention this has already gotten from fans, media and players?
This is Black Sox bad. Worse than the PED era to people who don't cheat.
JFC...some of your are out of your mind. This team video-relayed the catchers pitch calls electronically to hitters or whatever. Something that is ALREADY DONE by baserunners with their eyes. And it's completely okay. Yes, I get the difference - but the intent is the same. But to compare this to the Black Sox scandal or an entire ERA of records tainted by illegal performance enhancing drugs is a bit off. Nah...way way off. Not even in the same stratosphere. So much outrage.
Trying to justify how "wrong" the wrongdoing is. "It's all cheating and bad, but this cheating is worse (because someone else did it). The other cheating I'm okay with (because I was part of it)." So indicative of where we are in this country.
@jaysonst
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First observation about Carlos Beltran:
Why was he the only player mentioned in Rob Manfred's Astros verdict?
Because MLB clearly was stating: "He lied about this. We promised him immunity so we can't suspend him. But we want the world to know he lied."
10:30 AM - 16 Jan 2020
I don't agree with Stark's take here. So everyone from that 2017 team who had anything to do with this, except Beltran, decided to rat on Cora and Hinch?
He's the only player because he's a former player. wont have beef with the players association
sphinx : 1/15/2020 2:35 pm : link : reply
QT @S0_blessed1
My Tio Carlos is stepping down as Mets manager
2:11pm 15 Jan 2020
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Who is QT? :
QT
@S0_blessed1
No Autographs! Simple girl in a difficult city. Texas LonghornsAlum : Struggling med student - My favorite Uncle @Carlosbeltran15
Joined Mar 2017
Today:
QT
@S0_blessed1
Im told to stay quiet but I refuse sorry Tio Jose Altuve and Bregman wore devices that buzzed on inside right shoulder from hallway video guy.
based on the facts we already know. If he was honest with investigators then he could have been honest about his role and apologized. You are 100% correct that a lot of this depends upon whatever is in the full report, but knowing what we know about how this all came from the top down in Houston, it's hard for me to place enough blame on Beltran for him to lose his job over it.
IMO the only analogous sports situations are some of the things the Patriots have done, and this is like a combination of delfategate and spygate rolled into 1.
The same way Brady took too far what had been a normal practice of manipulating the football by QBs/Ks, Houston took sign stealing too far. Like spygate there was organizational endorsement of practices that went outside the gray area with the utilization of technology. In Brady's case the deflating of the balls wouldn't have happened without him. Period. A punishment was warranted. In deflategate the organization deserved a punishment.
In this case I find it hard to assess that any of this would have been stopped if Beltran didn't take part in it, which isn't the end all be all means of judging the punishment, but it seems wild to me that he is going to have such a severe punishment of losing his job beyond the majority of the principals who deserve the blame at the top of the Houston organization. And I don't trust the Mets FO to judge this fairly because they are always over concerned with random media perceptions. So I guess we wait to see what else comes out re: Beltran's role, but i'm skeptical anything different enough than what we already know will change the equation.
that Altuve and Bregman wore devices that buzzed on inside right shoulder.
I guess that's why Altuve famously didn't want teammates ripping his jersey off after the walk-off HR against Chapman. Fuck that entire franchise, and God bless Jomboy and Beltran's niece.
that Altuve and Bregman wore devices that buzzed on inside right shoulder.
I guess that's why Altuve famously didn't want teammates ripping his jersey off after the walk-off HR against Chapman. Fuck that entire franchise, and God bless Jomboy and Beltran's niece.
Jomboy's been saying almost from the beginning that he had players telling him that.
to me that the MLB wanted to mention all of the involved players in the report but couldn't or was afraid to because of the player's union. Since Beltran is a former player and no longer covered by the union, he was fair game.
Give me Buck and all will be fine.
No chance, Mr. wants to come in the managers office whenever he wants
Is hiring Buck
I think it's more the reverse. No way Buck would take the job work for a "Mr. wants to go in the managers office whenever he wants "
Plus I doubt the Mets would pay what Buck is probably looking for in salary.
I think it'll either be Rojas, Perez and maybe even Collins again.
that Altuve and Bregman wore devices that buzzed on inside right shoulder.
I guess that's why Altuve famously didn't want teammates ripping his jersey off after the walk-off HR against Chapman. Fuck that entire franchise, and God bless Jomboy and Beltran's niece.
Yup, as I mentioned above. They were cheating (again). Hinch won't be back in MLB.
Which actually makes the Nationals win that much more impressive. That said, when you are facing something like this, you are probably too distracted to feel the buzzer go off
@Jomboy_
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Beltran's niece tweeting about the buzzers, which matches up with what Ive been told from about 5 different parties.
based on the facts we already know. If he was honest with investigators then he could have been honest about his role and apologized. You are 100% correct that a lot of this depends upon whatever is in the full report, but knowing what we know about how this all came from the top down in Houston, it's hard for me to place enough blame on Beltran for him to lose his job over it.
IMO the only analogous sports situations are some of the things the Patriots have done, and this is like a combination of delfategate and spygate rolled into 1.
The same way Brady took too far what had been a normal practice of manipulating the football by QBs/Ks, Houston took sign stealing too far. Like spygate there was organizational endorsement of practices that went outside the gray area with the utilization of technology. In Brady's case the deflating of the balls wouldn't have happened without him. Period. A punishment was warranted. In deflategate the organization deserved a punishment.
In this case I find it hard to assess that any of this would have been stopped if Beltran didn't take part in it, which isn't the end all be all means of judging the punishment, but it seems wild to me that he is going to have such a severe punishment of losing his job beyond the majority of the principals who deserve the blame at the top of the Houston organization. And I don't trust the Mets FO to judge this fairly because they are always over concerned with random media perceptions. So I guess we wait to see what else comes out re: Beltran's role, but i'm skeptical anything different enough than what we already know will change the equation.
Deflategate was reaction to systematic cheating over years and a threat to cut the crap out. It came out that many QBs would mess with the balls and it wasn't that big of a deal. But all the years of all the crap the Patriots would do resulted in that suspension.
I do agree that this is somewhat more in line with the video taping that the Pats did, but again, remember the stories that even Carl Banks mentioned when he said Rex Ryan as a youngster used to get a room at the hotel across Route 3 that saw the Giants practice field during the Eagles week and Parcells knew about it. Hell, the Giants had the rumors of messing with the doors at Giants Stadium for opposing field goals to screw with the winds. There is always some level of "gamesmanship", which is usually policed by the teams.
In this case, the Astros from the top down wanted to come up with a cheating scheme to tell hitters what pitch was coming in real time. And every pitch. That's waaaaaaaaay further than anything that has been seen before when a guy on 2nd can figure out the signs or a pitcher has a "tell".
Again, wait for the full report to come out. And even now with Beltran's niece blowing the doors off on Altuve and Bregman (which those 2 were specifically rumored as trusted team members). Go back and watch the home run and see how Altuve didn't want his jersey ripped off. This will haunt the Astros all season and I wouldn't be surprised to see them fold under this pressure. That was part of what the Mets would have to deal with just having Beltran around.
@Jomboy_
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Beltran's niece tweeting about the buzzers, which matches up with what Ive been told from about 5 different parties.
11:09 AM - 16 Jan 2020
Trevor Bauer @BauerOutage
Ive heard this from multiple parties too, for what its worth...
To the people saying this was going to get ugly...exactly how? Would have blown over in a week. The Mets should know bad PR better than anyone.
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
Are you not aware of how much attention this has already gotten from fans, media and players?
This is Black Sox bad. Worse than the PED era to people who don't cheat.
JFC...some of your are out of your mind. This team video-relayed the catchers pitch calls electronically to hitters or whatever. Something that is ALREADY DONE by baserunners with their eyes. And it's completely okay. Yes, I get the difference - but the intent is the same. But to compare this to the Black Sox scandal or an entire ERA of records tainted by illegal performance enhancing drugs is a bit off. Nah...way way off. Not even in the same stratosphere. So much outrage.
Trying to justify how "wrong" the wrongdoing is. "It's all cheating and bad, but this cheating is worse (because someone else did it). The other cheating I'm okay with (because I was part of it)." So indicative of where we are in this country.
Yeah. Youre wrong about it being just like stealing signs. They had devices attached to their bodys that would buzz to let them know what pitch was coming.
But please, give us another long diatribe about how this is, indicative of where we are in this country.
He was only mentioned once in the report and you are a disingenuous piece of shit, because any time that fact was mentioned it was in response to fabricated claims that Beltran was a "ringleader" and by all accounts, including his apology, he was not.
To the people saying this was going to get ugly...exactly how? Would have blown over in a week. The Mets should know bad PR better than anyone.
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
Are you not aware of how much attention this has already gotten from fans, media and players?
This is Black Sox bad. Worse than the PED era to people who don't cheat.
JFC...some of your are out of your mind. This team video-relayed the catchers pitch calls electronically to hitters or whatever. Something that is ALREADY DONE by baserunners with their eyes. And it's completely okay. Yes, I get the difference - but the intent is the same. But to compare this to the Black Sox scandal or an entire ERA of records tainted by illegal performance enhancing drugs is a bit off. Nah...way way off. Not even in the same stratosphere. So much outrage.
Trying to justify how "wrong" the wrongdoing is. "It's all cheating and bad, but this cheating is worse (because someone else did it). The other cheating I'm okay with (because I was part of it)." So indicative of where we are in this country.
Yeah. Youre wrong about it being just like stealing signs. They had devices attached to their bodys that would buzz to let them know what pitch was coming.
But please, give us another long diatribe about how this is, indicative of where we are in this country.
LMFAO.
The intent is the same...is it not?
RE: RE: Matt in SGS - that's all fair but this didn't have to happen
In this case, the Astros from the top down wanted to come up with a cheating scheme to tell hitters what pitch was coming in real time. And every pitch. That's waaaaaaaaay further than anything that has been seen before when a guy on 2nd can figure out the signs or a pitcher has a "tell".
Again, wait for the full report to come out. And even now with Beltran's niece blowing the doors off on Altuve and Bregman (which those 2 were specifically rumored as trusted team members). Go back and watch the home run and see how Altuve didn't want his jersey ripped off. This will haunt the Astros all season and I wouldn't be surprised to see them fold under this pressure. That was part of what the Mets would have to deal with just having Beltran around.
Completely agree that the Astros institutional corruption is way above and beyond, along with the impact of the type of cheating they were doing. Organizationally I wouldn't have had any issue with a far harsher punishment. Take away twice as many draft picks and it still seems light.
Beltran's role is where things get murky for me just because he was a player. Whether he was enthusiastic and important in helping devise the system is secondary to me. He was a player, and not even 1 those whose performance mattered. Yes this will linger over the Astros and Red Sox over the year, but that's because those organizations benefitted. The Mets organization was obviously uninvolved. Perhaps the entire scandal is too deep for Beltran to be completely honest, but IMO the punishment outweighs the crimes of his direct participation as we currently understand it.
If George was still around it would be a certainty. He wouldn't be able to resist the chance to spite the Mets. As it is he's still a very good coach and he knows Houston.
Marly Rivera
@MarlyRiveraESPN
1h
The Beltrn family told me that this individual, who claims to be Carlos Beltrn's "niece", is not related to the family in any way. This person may or may not have additional information about the Houston Astros sign-stealing scandal, but they are not related to the Beltrns. https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status
not for nothing, but MLB seems to be handling this thing like crap
no issue with them giving out immunity for candor, but if so they need to get to the bottom of this and put out what was done and by whom. I don't care if players don't get punished due to the players assoc., but there needs to be some transparency.
no issue with them giving out immunity for candor, but if so they need to get to the bottom of this and put out what was done and by whom. I don't care if players don't get punished due to the players assoc., but there needs to be some transparency.
It is amazing that all of this stuff is coming out now after Beltran stepped down.
Especially since is the Mets? Who they love to rip on for EVERYTHING. And blow up the team stress no matter what.
And that is def the organizations fault for being so inept. But its where they are.
I personally don't want any avoidable media targets as a Mets fan. This team could be good.
I imagine any manager who doesn't have Mickey Callaway syndrome can help manage this team to competition.
And yeah, all these guys will probably surface as hot manager candidates in a year or two when this does down.
But it can never be in a NY Media market. come on, use your NY sports fan logic here. We all see how this goes every time in NY media land.
mantra of the MLB doesn't want to get into it with the MLBPA.
But why?
this seems big enough the MLBPA really has zero ground to stand on. this cheating scandal, while maybe technically not breaking a written rule (I mean is there a rule that said you can't bang a trashcan to indicate pitch type? - and the video equipment was in a legal place) - it's clearly cheating.
The league looks worse for not punishing the players. Not better.
Example: I intend to make money shorting a stock. If I pick a stock a to short using public information = legal. If I puck a stock because my friend works there and tips me off = prison.
Runner at second peeking at signs = legal. Employee off the field using telescopes, cameras, electronics and remote signaling devices = not legal.
Its not rocket science.
RE: so.....what's taped to Josh Reddick's chest here?
Guys come on, this is turning into a witch hunt. Do some research before crying wolf. If you look anywhere on Twitter you can see other pictures where it shows its clearly a piece of wet confetti covering his necklace
RE: so.....what's taped to Josh Reddick's chest here?
no question about that. Apparently BVW and Jeff Wilpon just cut short a press conference about it, at which Carig says they essentially claimed they never asked Beltran about what his role was, just told him to cooperate with MLB and that they only found out when the article came out on the Athletic, like everyone else.
So in other words, their crisis strategy was:
RE: RE: so.....what's taped to Josh Reddick's chest here?
Guys come on, this is turning into a witch hunt. Do some research before crying wolf. If you look anywhere on Twitter you can see other pictures where it shows its clearly a piece of wet confetti covering his necklace
Rory: Is the reason Yankee fans are on the radio because they lost in hard fought close playoffs to the systemically cheating Astros? Isnt that more the fuel than any animus to the Mets who did nothing except maybe not enough due diligence on Beltran or they honorably took his word for it?
I don't know that's why imm asking. I don't dislike the Mets and don't understand the reverse take either
PhilPsi: You are aware your takes/bias and rationales are quite emotional? Or not?
Im going to guess that MLB cant go after the players so they are going hard after franchises and managers. Just a guess they called the Mets and said we aren't finished our investigation or punishments.
Sucks but right decision at this time. The Mets made a lof of good improvements and have a good team, one of the best of their recent teams...why distract the players and focus of the media on anything except how well the players are doing??
It may not have been smart to miss full due diligence on Beltran ( who was a guy who several teams including the Yankees wanted/hired back before all this) but this is a smart organizational move. Clears the decks for actually playing baseball
mantra of the MLB doesn't want to get into it with the MLBPA.
But why?
this seems big enough the MLBPA really has zero ground to stand on. this cheating scandal, while maybe technically not breaking a written rule (I mean is there a rule that said you can't bang a trashcan to indicate pitch type? - and the video equipment was in a legal place) - it's clearly cheating.
The league looks worse for not punishing the players. Not better.
The players do have a leg to stand on if the team was pushing the players to do this, which has basically been in the public record that they were from the highest levels for months now. I'm not a lawyer but whether the players were willing participants or not, wouldn't a person of authority providing the means and motivation to break rules basically be entrapment?
Quote:
A Houston Astros front-office executive reportedly suggested the use of cameras to steal signs in an email to scouts ahead of the 2017 MLB playoffs, The Athletic's Ken Rosenthal and Evan Drellich report.
The email, which was reportedly sent in August 2017, details the team's scouting plans prior to the playoffs.
"One thing in specific we are looking for is picking up signs coming out of the dugout, the email, disclosed to The Athletic, read. What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc. So go to game, see what you can (or cant) do and report back your findings."
According to ESPN's Jeff Passan, the executive that sent the email is Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to Houston general manager Jeff Luhnow.
That Beltran was highly regarded as a baseball help by players and organizations for years.
It might have been easy to assume he was the same old Beltran.
And he the person likely is. He was too close to the flames and im guessing here stonewalled higher ups that asked.
Natural when you are close to being named to your dream and you have contributed to baseball for so long.
All in all...missing his level of involvement is not a terrible mistake and terminating a major distraction before spring training when it would be a non stop media bombardment...smart organizational move that puts the players and fans first
but regardless of whether it's the correct decision or not the mets FO looks foolish as always. Hard for me to fathom how people who eat/breathe/live this stuff because it is their livelihood, compensated at a very high level, can act like they were only able to gather the same level of information as us morons on a message board. Or even the level of intel found by a reporter who probably makes 1/100th the amount of money of 10+ people in the FO who have official roles that provide access to pick up a phone and find out what happened. Or you know, go down the hall and ask Carlos some questions.
Making the excuse that they didn't know because they abdicated their responsibility to learn more in the last couple months is a failure unto itself.
nowhere in your link does it suggest they asked the players to do anything - it was scouts they asked according to the article - and in the MLB report it says it was a players meeting "including Carols Beltran" where the plan was discussed.
your take is very refreshing and enjoyable. As a Mets fan, I have the utmost respect for the tradition. There are knuckleheads on both sides.
The people who get screwed are the Mets fans. Whether investing with their wallets or hearts, it is gone beyond reasonable what this fan base has to endure.
nowhere in your link does it suggest they asked the players to do anything - it was scouts they asked according to the article - and in the MLB report it says it was a players meeting "including Carols Beltran" where the plan was discussed.
Are you suggesting it's a coincidence that:
1. the Houston FO wanted to engage in electronic sign stealing.
and then
2. the players (with a bench coach heavily involved) engaged in electronic sign stealing.
nowhere in your link does it suggest they asked the players to do anything - it was scouts they asked according to the article - and in the MLB report it says it was a players meeting "including Carols Beltran" where the plan was discussed.
Are you suggesting it's a coincidence that:
1. the Houston FO wanted to engage in electronic sign stealing.
and then
2. the players (with a bench coach heavily involved) engaged in electronic sign stealing.
??
I'm not suggesting anything other than what we know as facts and the MLB report probably would have mentioned the front office initiated it, and they made no such claims.
know what's wild? Kevin Goldstein privately broke the Beltran signing with the Mets news to me back in 2005.
Was he the same guy who used to send out those baseball prospect updates each day for Baseball Prospectus (or someone)?
Same guy, his Astros job was originally offered to Keith Law, Goldstein took it when Law declined. Always very nice and responsive to me when he had the newsletter.
Agree. It sucks and is unearned for Mets fans. But I think this path works out best for them. Sweep Atlanta or the Nationals and everyone will forget it!!
Rory: Is the reason Yankee fans are on the radio because they lost in hard fought close playoffs to the systemically cheating Astros? Isnt that more the fuel than any animus to the Mets who did nothing except maybe not enough due diligence on Beltran or they honorably took his word for it?
I don't know that's why imm asking. I don't dislike the Mets and don't understand the reverse take either
PhilPsi: You are aware your takes/bias and rationales are quite emotional? Or not?
Bill, it's a fair question. I'm sure that my responses do come off emotional at times but you can lump most the posters on the site in that group. My initial response was actually to another Mets fan, however.
I stayed away from these threads for a while because they fell into the predictable Mets fan/Yanks fan pissing match. But there's a lot of garbage on here, from both sides. Personally, I'm not as outraged by it but I can understand why Yankee fans would feel slighted by a possible missed opportunity.
But then I'm hearing that Cleveland (and apparently all other teams) knew that the Astros were doing this and the Indians would just change their signs. I'm not naive enough to believe that the league wasn't aware of this. They were. Or that other teams didn't know about it. They did. Or that plenty of other teams were also doing it. They were.
I'm sure plenty more information is going to come out. Should be interesting.
Yeah. You and I have seen the site when the rabid edges of the fan base made night after night "strikes" trolling the threads of the other team.
Its not a form of interaction in understand.
Now that the Mets are better ( the Yankees likely to be) there are reasons to brag and temptations to spread the emotions.
Hope our summer doesn't have a return to that ( and turbo charged for the NYG have not given any of us much in recent years).
As for this Beltran situation...its not an injury to a major player. Its not a change in how good a team you can field. I just don't think its a negative. Its an emotional suck and after years of bad luck we all tend to categorize sudden change as a loss ...but upon analysis I don't think it is.
Beltran really wanted to stay and tried to convince the Mets that he could take the heat and still do a good job. Mets were adamant about moving on.
This whole thing is a shame. I liked Carlos a ton and think he will make (or would have made) a good manager. But I do understand this. Mets are coming off a great second half and, other than Beltran, the enormous story has nothing to do with them.
I feel bad for Betances if him wanting to play for Beltran weighed in his decision to sign.
I feel genuinely sad for Carlos, but this is all avoided if he doesnt cheat. Personally Id see if Perez is interested. Otherwise maybe hire Collins for the year and do the search again next year, hopefully when Cohen is more involved.
Shame Fiers didnt come clean before Girardi was passed on.
Beltran really wanted to stay and tried to convince the Mets that he could take the heat and still do a good job. Mets were adamant about moving on.
This whole thing is a shame. I liked Carlos a ton and think he will make (or would have made) a good manager. But I do understand this. Mets are coming off a great second half and, other than Beltran, the enormous story has nothing to do with them.
I feel bad for Betances if him wanting to play for Beltran weighed in his decision to sign.
I feel genuinely sad for Carlos, but this is all avoided if he doesnt cheat. Personally Id see if Perez is interested. Otherwise maybe hire Collins for the year and do the search again next year, hopefully when Cohen is more involved.
Shame Fiers didnt come clean before Girardi was passed on.
Beltran really wanted to stay and tried to convince the Mets that he could take the heat and still do a good job. Mets were adamant about moving on.
ugh, stealing signs or not Mets just blew a huge opportunity to take control of the situation and are going to lose out on the manager who was going to bring this team to greatness.
Yet, players that are still on that Astros rosters go unscathed.
With all the outrage that is out there in the public over this whole thing, away fans better berate the Astros whenever they are on the road this year.
It's going to be hell on wheels for them in Yankee Stadium.
That Beltran was highly regarded as a baseball help by players and organizations for years.
It might have been easy to assume he was the same old Beltran.
And he the person likely is. He was too close to the flames and im guessing here stonewalled higher ups that asked.
Natural when you are close to being named to your dream and you have contributed to baseball for so long.
All in all...missing his level of involvement is not a terrible mistake and terminating a major distraction before spring training when it would be a non stop media bombardment...smart organizational move that puts the players and fans first
imo
+1. I don't see how this reflects badly on the Mets at all.
Only concern is the Mets though and what's going to happen on the field. Get a competent manager that isnt going to personally sabotage multiple games for us like we've been used to lately, and Ill still be happy and ready to kick off this season.
Chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon said Beltran and the Mets mutually decided to part ways. A source close to Beltran said Beltran wanted to stay, but the Mets insisted on a breakup, wanting to avoid the distraction of what they saw as an untenable situation. Beltran was manager for 77 days and zero games.
Something does smell right in Metsville (Messville). I don't believe for 1 second that MLB had no say in this. Mets ownership went to MLB offices yesterday to get clarity and then decided he needs to go. Beltran did what he was asked to do. MLB publicly said he would face no suspension but BVW and Wilpon were very coy when it came to the conversations with MLB. MLB is not being very transparent which always suggests to me something is going on.
The worst part is that MLB didn't clue the Mets in at any point over the last few months and left them hanging. It's one thing to nail Houston and Boston but why are the Mets suffering? It is because Wilpon has no spine. For a guy that is so image conscious, he sure makes a lot of boneheaded decisions.When they said Beltran was sad I always felt he was sad he lost this opportunity.
At the end of the day what does this highlight. The Mets are a Mickey Mouse organization owned by spineless owners and there is no reason a manager or player should come to the NYM until they sell in a couple of years. Link - ( New Window )
Chief operating officer Jeff Wilpon said Beltran and the Mets mutually decided to part ways. A source close to Beltran said Beltran wanted to stay, but the Mets insisted on a breakup, wanting to avoid the distraction of what they saw as an untenable situation. Beltran was manager for 77 days and zero games.
Something does smell right in Metsville (Messville). I don't believe for 1 second that MLB had no say in this. Mets ownership went to MLB offices yesterday to get clarity and then decided he needs to go. Beltran did what he was asked to do. MLB publicly said he would face no suspension but BVW and Wilpon were very coy when it came to the conversations with MLB. MLB is not being very transparent which always suggests to me something is going on.
The worst part is that MLB didn't clue the Mets in at any point over the last few months and left them hanging. It's one thing to nail Houston and Boston but why are the Mets suffering? It is because Wilpon has no spine. For a guy that is so image conscious, he sure makes a lot of boneheaded decisions.When they said Beltran was sad I always felt he was sad he lost this opportunity.
At the end of the day what does this highlight. The Mets are a Mickey Mouse organization owned by spineless owners and there is no reason a manager or player should come to the NYM until they sell in a couple of years. Link - ( New Window )
keith Hernandez
✔
@keithhernandez
Everybody, calm down. This current crisis is unfortunate to the nth degree, but not insurmountable. We have a solid team, good core of young everyday players, mixed with veterans, and a solid rotation. They have great camaraderie, spirit, a will to win, and theyre hungry
@keithhernandez
This will all iron itself out. So sit back, enjoy life. Life is good. Stop stressing. Our season will hinge on our bullpen. Betances is a good gamble and hes pitched in NY. Atlanta and Washington lost key offensive players. Division wide open and very competitive. So relax
I would just promote Hensley Meulens, make DeFrancesco bench coach, and Rojas 1st base coach. Apparently, Bam Bam is being strongly considered for the Red Sox managerial position. MassLive gives him the second best odds behind Jason Varitek. Link - ( New Window )
That Beltran was highly regarded as a baseball help by players and organizations for years.
It might have been easy to assume he was the same old Beltran.
And he the person likely is. He was too close to the flames and im guessing here stonewalled higher ups that asked.
Natural when you are close to being named to your dream and you have contributed to baseball for so long.
All in all...missing his level of involvement is not a terrible mistake and terminating a major distraction before spring training when it would be a non stop media bombardment...smart organizational move that puts the players and fans first
imo
+1. I don't see how this reflects badly on the Mets at all.
The only way it reflects badly on them to me is they either knew all about this or should've known.before or during the Beltran hire.
BVW is supposedly tight with Hinch as is Jessica Mendiza. I find it a bit hard to believe BVW or Mendoza didn't at least hear some whispers or given a heads up during the Beltran interview process.
If somehow they didn't know anything it begs the question why didn't they? It's not like this thing came out of the clear blue sky.
That Beltran was highly regarded as a baseball help by players and organizations for years.
It might have been easy to assume he was the same old Beltran.
And he the person likely is. He was too close to the flames and im guessing here stonewalled higher ups that asked.
Natural when you are close to being named to your dream and you have contributed to baseball for so long.
All in all...missing his level of involvement is not a terrible mistake and terminating a major distraction before spring training when it would be a non stop media bombardment...smart organizational move that puts the players and fans first
imo
+1. I don't see how this reflects badly on the Mets at all.
The only way it reflects badly on them to me is they either knew all about this or should've known.before or during the Beltran hire.
BVW is supposedly tight with Hinch as is Jessica Mendiza. I find it a bit hard to believe BVW or Mendoza didn't at least hear some whispers or given a heads up during the Beltran interview process.
If somehow they didn't know anything it begs the question why didn't they? It's not like this thing came out of the clear blue sky.
They absolutely knew, they just can't make that known/public because then the Mets are the team that knew and tried to keep Beltran regardless and had to have their hand forced.
All of a sudden the "lack of integrity bulls-eye" is right back on the Mets
That Beltran was highly regarded as a baseball help by players and organizations for years.
It might have been easy to assume he was the same old Beltran.
And he the person likely is. He was too close to the flames and im guessing here stonewalled higher ups that asked.
Natural when you are close to being named to your dream and you have contributed to baseball for so long.
All in all...missing his level of involvement is not a terrible mistake and terminating a major distraction before spring training when it would be a non stop media bombardment...smart organizational move that puts the players and fans first
imo
+1. I don't see how this reflects badly on the Mets at all.
The only way it reflects badly on them to me is they either knew all about this or should've known.before or during the Beltran hire.
BVW is supposedly tight with Hinch as is Jessica Mendiza. I find it a bit hard to believe BVW or Mendoza didn't at least hear some whispers or given a heads up during the Beltran interview process.
If somehow they didn't know anything it begs the question why didn't they? It's not like this thing came out of the clear blue sky.
They absolutely knew, they just can't make that known/public because then the Mets are the team that knew and tried to keep Beltran regardless and had to have their hand forced.
All of a sudden the "lack of integrity bulls-eye" is right back on the Mets
You may be right, and just to be clear I'm not taking a shot at the Mets here. I'd feel the exact same if you replaced "Mets" with any other team.
Eduardo Perez: +300
Hensley Meulens: +350
Luis Rojas: +400
Tim Bogar: +400
Terry Collins: +700
Tony DeFrancesco: +700
Bruce Bochy: +900
Buck Showalter: +900
Dusty Baker: +900
John Gibbons: +1000
Kevin Long: +1200
I think Perez and Muelens make the most sense (hence the strong odds. I want nothing to do with Rojas. He didn't make it past 1st round the last time. Collins to me would be a stop gap until new ownership takes over. To me a waste. Honestly if Bochy was interested I think he could be an interesting choice. World Series winner. Just not sure how he would work with existing coaching staff or analytics.
@SheaParkingLot
15h15 hours ago
More
Hey @TheClemReport hows this for full circle! Mets tried to trade Wilmer Flores for Carlos Gomez in 2015 but Mets back out. Milwaukee sends Gomez to Houston with Mike Fiers who exposed the scandal thus leading to the dominos falling including Beltrans dismissal! Wow!!
If they truly cared about winning it would be Buck or Dusty. Or give Bochy a call and see if he changed his mind about retirement.
Not intended to be provocative coming from a Yankees fan, but I'm shocked that a fan of any team with a good pitching staff would want Dusty Baker as their manager.
RE: RE: Showalter stands out but I doubt BVW does it
If they truly cared about winning it would be Buck or Dusty. Or give Bochy a call and see if he changed his mind about retirement.
Not intended to be provocative coming from a Yankees fan, but I'm shocked that a fan of any team with a good pitching staff would want Dusty Baker as their manager.
Indeed.
Personally, Id go with Rojas or Perez or Meulens if they truly believe in their long-term abilities.
If not, Id ask Terry Collins to return for one year and do a proper search next November.
My out of the box choices would be Fonzie and an inquiry to David Wright.
he wouldn't have been my top choice entering the offseason but 3 weeks before ST I'll take a guy who seems to always win 90+ games. But anyone who can set the lineup card correctly will be an upgrade.
RE: RE: RE: Showalter stands out but I doubt BVW does it
If they truly cared about winning it would be Buck or Dusty. Or give Bochy a call and see if he changed his mind about retirement.
Not intended to be provocative coming from a Yankees fan, but I'm shocked that a fan of any team with a good pitching staff would want Dusty Baker as their manager.
Indeed.
Personally, Id go with Rojas or Perez or Meulens if they truly believe in their long-term abilities.
If not, Id ask Terry Collins to return for one year and do a proper search next November.
My out of the box choices would be Fonzie and an inquiry to David Wright.
Probably the only Mets fan saying this but I like the younger approach to hiring a manager who studies analytics.
Analytics has the power to finding flaws and either exposing or correcting.
Mets have a number of players that need to have their techniques studied and tweaked, Beltran was going to be the perfect fit for that need.
Rojas could be the next best option, however whoever they hire they better lean on Meulens when deciding.
Disagree - in this org the most important thing is a strong culture
and credible experience in building that. The Wilpons are well known clowns. BVW is good at the microphone and may have a team of people to help him make some good decisions here and there, but he knows nothing about how to build a culture in a lockerroom. He simply hasn't done it or been around it.
A young guy with fresh ideas can certainly work, baseball managing isn't the most complicated job in the sports world - but they also don't have experience with the media and can get overwhelmed here. Or not know how to be the right kind of leader. Or make tactical mistakes from never having managed before.
Callaway just did all of those things over the past 2 years and at least last year I think he honestly cost them the playoffs. I believe his awful leadership and terrible command of in-game decisions cost them a lot more games than a typical manager would. If they had 1 extra win for every time he had to publicly apologize to the team/media last year they'd have won 90.
btw here's how close the mets were to playoffs last year
the Brewers made the 2nd WC with a record of 89-73 and just a +3 run differential.
Off the top of my head - twice Callaway apologized for pulling Thor too early with low pitch counts, once in front of the whole team if I'm remembering correctly. He did the same with Matz in a game down the stretch when his pitch could was like in the 70's/80's and I think he had a shutout going for a time. And obviously there's the Nats comeback game where he started the 9th inning with like Seawald - another young guy - and then Avilan vs. a righty.
Not firing him in June - when for the 2nd straight year his team literally went in the tank for him to the point of almost ending the season pre ASB - cost them the playoffs.
Or another older manager with gravitas as a stop-gap here for one or two years. Cohen will probably want his own GM and manager anyway.
Id really prefer Collins for one year, but Baker, Bochy, Buck to stabilize the mood and let the club work is the call I think.
86 win team that played .634 ball 2nd half - you just want someone who can minimize the distraction and move forward. I say Collins because he obviously knows the job and his players went hard for him.
But man, ready to get this over and get to camp cause its hard not to lose sight of the fact that this team had a great run to end the year and has a good shot at improvement with Betances on board and hopefully a bounce back from at least one of Diaz and Familia.
Braves and Nats both lost some key pieces. They can be in the mix with good health and a bullpen resurgence.
So odd to see three manager vacancies in Jan, let alone the 17 & 18 champs and an 86 win team returning the cy young and ROY.
RE: btw here's how close the mets were to playoffs last year
the Brewers made the 2nd WC with a record of 89-73 and just a +3 run differential.
Off the top of my head - twice Callaway apologized for pulling Thor too early with low pitch counts, once in front of the whole team if I'm remembering correctly. He did the same with Matz in a game down the stretch when his pitch could was like in the 70's/80's and I think he had a shutout going for a time. And obviously there's the Nats comeback game where he started the 9th inning with like Seawald - another young guy - and then Avilan vs. a righty.
Not firing him in June - when for the 2nd straight year his team literally went in the tank for him to the point of almost ending the season pre ASB - cost them the playoffs.
I'm not sure about that, I watched alot of post game pressers after wins last year with the Mets.
Mets players knew Callaway was on the hot seat and were playing hard for him and constantly credited him for his coaching moments.
But seeing that BVW is at it again in opening up talks with pirates. Of note in the article was that he was willing to part with Nimmo but that the pirates wanted prospects. I point this out only to highlight what a bad GM he is.
Also if he somehow trades for Marte and it doesnt include Nimmo (which no one thinks is a good idea) then it may even be dumber unless there is a parallel trade to remove glut of outfielders.
Or another older manager with gravitas as a stop-gap here for one or two years. Cohen will probably want his own GM and manager anyway.
Id really prefer Collins for one year, but Baker, Bochy, Buck to stabilize the mood and let the club work is the call I think.
86 win team that played .634 ball 2nd half - you just want someone who can minimize the distraction and move forward. I say Collins because he obviously knows the job and his players went hard for him.
But man, ready to get this over and get to camp cause its hard not to lose sight of the fact that this team had a great run to end the year and has a good shot at improvement with Betances on board and hopefully a bounce back from at least one of Diaz and Familia.
Braves and Nats both lost some key pieces. They can be in the mix with good health and a bullpen resurgence.
So odd to see three manager vacancies in Jan, let alone the 17 & 18 champs and an 86 win team returning the cy young and ROY.
Dont want Baker with this coaching staff. Would be fine with Bochy. I am also comfortable giving Meulens a shot. He coached under Bochy and Mets thought enough of him to bench coach a rookie manager.
Not excited for the season anymore.
With all the outrage that is out there in the public over this whole thing, away fans better berate the Astros whenever they are on the road this year.
Fuck the Wilpons for giving in to impulsive fan perception
fucking embarrassing.
Was legitimately excited about Beltran, I feel sick.
Now what?
Can I place this at the feet of the GM/Agent?
Did he not do his due diligence?
They HAD to have known all this was coming.
Just looks SO ridiculous for the ball club.
Agree 100%
Now moving on who gets the job?
its unclear
I'll wait........
lolRory
why?
its unclear
In all likelihood - it was both
Why do I never learn? This team keeps sucking me back in and then screwing me. My entire life.
Quote:
Like they should've done to begin with.
Agree 100%
are you fucking kidding?, 30 days from ST what prospective manager like Buck will want to take a job where you were not involved with any of the decisions (coaches, players, etc)
having his name mentioned fucking once in a report? awful
Quote:
.
why?
look at the source...
I'll wait........
Yes, Yankees fans forced Beltran to step down. That was totally how it went down.
Really top-notch read on the situation...
@Ken_Rosenthal
1m
#Mets coach Luis Rojas under consideration for managerial vacancy, sources tell The Athletic.
Why do I never learn? This team keeps sucking me back in and then screwing me. My entire life.
This is not BVV, this is Wilpons and their thin skin
and all the dumb un-educated NYC Mets fans on Mets twitter that run their mouth but didn't even read the report.
fuck
Quote:
piss and moan and force all of the other players on those Astros rosters to step down and away from the game.
I'll wait........
Yes, Yankees fans forced Beltran to step down. That was totally how it went down.
Really top-notch read on the situation...
It's funny how public perception works...right?
Pissed ... but all things considered, Rojas makes sense.
This is a total circle jerk. I wasn't in favor of hiring Beltran but now that they did felt they should have stuck with him. Beltran's MLB career is now over so I doubt he walked away hat in hand. I am sure he will be getting paid something meaning the Mets in 2020 will be paying 3 managers (2 not to manage team).
How does Joe Girardi sound now?
Now I have no idea what in terms of who the manager will be. There are obvious names out there available but knowing the Mets they'll do something stupid.
Quote:
In comment 14781984 PhiPsi125 said:
Quote:
piss and moan and force all of the other players on those Astros rosters to step down and away from the game.
I'll wait........
Yes, Yankees fans forced Beltran to step down. That was totally how it went down.
Really top-notch read on the situation...
It's funny how public perception works...right?
Phi is right, I spent the last 2 days attentively listening to MLB radio in fear of what just occurred and the callers calling in from NY were mostly Yankee fans that were "outraged over cheating" which i'm sorry
I find is really fucking hypocritical.
with social media and everyone having the need to voice their bloated opinions as fact and having an owner who cries every time someone criticizes his decision making
Beltran was toast
Now moving on who gets the job?
AMEN!!
The players are protected. Beltran is not a player anymore.
IT
WOULD
HAVE
GOTTEN
UGLY
Pissed ... but all things considered, Rojas makes sense.
I would also consider Bam Bam Meulens, whom the Mets hired as Bench Coach. He has a decade coaching under Bruce Bochy.
Are they all in leadership positions? If so, then they should.
I hate Wilpon as much as the next Mets fan, but I fail to see how any of this is his fault.
Give me Buck and all will be fine.
this team already has been designed internally within the Mets org, coaches players system analytics.
whoever comes to take the reins is going to be an internal candidate, not Buck Showalter
No need to offer media people a pound of flesh.
Only this team can bungle things so poorly, all the freaking time.
he was not my first choice at all and I had still had concerns about him as manager, but I feel bad for Beltran in all this. He got a very raw deal with the timing of everything. Had it come out prior he may have been able to disarm it and had it come out after his performance would have been able to give him some cushion (or not).
Instead he gets screwed the worst out of anyone in this mess in losing a job opportunity he may never get again, including the organization that was in full throated endorsement of the sign stealing operation at the highest levels.
lol
I wouldn't be surprised. Even if you're just joking....I honestly wouldn't be surprised.
Likely Luis Rojas
This would have hung over the Mets all season. Not a way to start off with a new manager. And let's see what happens with Hinch in actuality. Even though it looks like Cora was the "mastermind", Hinch didn't stop it even if he wasn't behind or smashed a TV. If he was so against it, he should have said to knock it off and then fired Cora when it kept going on. He didn't. And he acted like a prick in the ALCS when it was brought up. Plus, when more comes out that they were still doing it in 2019 with buzzers, Hinch will end up with the same death penalty that Cora is about to get.
Give me Buck and all will be fine.
No chance, Mr. wants to come in the managers office whenever he wants
Is hiring Buck
A total joke.
Players on that team who participated in this for years, got nothing but awards and fat contracts elsewhere.
Hell Espada served on the coaching staff for 2 years while this went on and got a promotion out of the deal!
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
The players haven't been disciplined because Manfred wants nothing to do with going head to head against the players association over things like this. Managers dont get that protection.
I dont think the Mets had any choice. Why would they keep a rookie manager as manager when he lost all credibility before they even started spring training
2. Terry Collins (never a fan, but now I think this organization needs this type)
3. Hensley Meulens (doesn't seem to have that Wilpon love like Rojas et al.)
4. David Wright (in house like Beltran)
5. Vet Showalter/Baker/etc
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
Are you not aware of how much attention this has already gotten from fans, media and players?
This is Black Sox bad. Worse than the PED era to people who don't cheat.
The players haven't been disciplined because Manfred wants nothing to do with going head to head against the players association over things like this. Managers dont get that protection.
I dont think the Mets had any choice. Why would they keep a rookie manager as manager when he lost all credibility before they even started spring training
How so? Manfred was going to suspend him?
The players haven't been disciplined because Manfred wants nothing to do with going head to head against the players association over things like this. Managers dont get that protection.
I dont think the Mets had any choice. Why would they keep a rookie manager as manager when he lost all credibility before they even started spring training
This would have blown over by next weekend or even sooner if the Mets released a statement in support of Beltran. What the hell are you talking about?
They hired BVW a year ago bc he sold them by being media savvy, not with any actual credentials.
BVW bought in on Beltran for a lot of reasons, but a few of them were that he was willing to fit into the mets f'd up hierarchy, he was media friendly, and he was cheap.
2 of those 3 just led to him being canned - so we are where we are again because of the Wilpon culture of doing business.
If that culture was actual no nonsense winning Joe Girardi would have been named manager last summer.
Funny how Mickey Callaway didn't get fired when he basically threatened a reporter and then evolved his story of what happened over 2-3 days.
They won't because for some reason they fired him after winning the NY-Penn league title, but they should.
They won't because for some reason they fired him after winning the NY-Penn league title, but they should.
I could get behind this.
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
No way this blows over in a week. Let's see what happens when the full report is out. They haven't even finished the investigation of the 2018 Red Sox. I'm sure MLB has cozied up to the owners to let them know where this is going. They can't suspend all the players, so they have to go after management. The Astros thing was pretty clearly orchestrated. They announce the suspension and the owner fires them in a press conference less than an hour later. That was staged so the owner can come in and say he didn't know what his employees were doing and fired them and now they are starting over.
The Red Sox had to respond in kind with Cora and now the trickle down to the Mets. This might well be the biggest overall scandal in MLB history when it's all said and done. It's one thing for a guy to roid up and break records (see Bonds). His punishment is he's out of the Hall and everyone knows he cheated. The Astros and Red Sox won championships. The Astros clearly have a huge asterisk on them for 2017. Let's see what comes out about Boston to see if the same thing happens to them. And Jomboy, who has been ahead of all this as the reporting came out (and by indications was being leaked stuff himself to look for because organizations wanted to get after Houston...not just the Yankees, and he kept the pressure on MLB not to bury this) and he said he has heard from several sources that the buzzer story on Houston was true in 2019. If you found out that Altuve knew that Chapman was throwing an offspeed pitch in Game 6, would anyone be surprised? No, because Houston is a proven dirty organization.
You have a fairly new commissioner, you have competition for advertisers and a young audience, no one wants the feel that teams are using technology to cheat to this level. So the hammer is coming down. The Mets happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time with Beltran.
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@jaysonst
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First observation about Carlos Beltran:
Why was he the only player mentioned in Rob Manfred's Astros verdict?
Because MLB clearly was stating: "He lied about this. We promised him immunity so we can't suspend him. But we want the world to know he lied."
10:30 AM - 16 Jan 2020
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@jaysonst
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First observation about Carlos Beltran:
Why was he the only player mentioned in Rob Manfred's Astros verdict?
Because MLB clearly was stating: "He lied about this. We promised him immunity so we can't suspend him. But we want the world to know he lied."
10:30 AM - 16 Jan 2020
I don't agree with Stark's take here. So everyone from that 2017 team who had anything to do with this, except Beltran, decided to rat on Cora and Hinch?
The players haven't been disciplined because Manfred wants nothing to do with going head to head against the players association over things like this. Managers dont get that protection.
I dont think the Mets had any choice. Why would they keep a rookie manager as manager when he lost all credibility before they even started spring training
With whom did he lose credibility? He hasn't even started the job yet. Being fully aware of what's expected, he should've been allowed to do the job.
Quote:
To the people saying this was going to get ugly...exactly how? Would have blown over in a week. The Mets should know bad PR better than anyone.
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
Are you not aware of how much attention this has already gotten from fans, media and players?
This is Black Sox bad. Worse than the PED era to people who don't cheat.
JFC...some of your are out of your mind. This team video-relayed the catchers pitch calls electronically to hitters or whatever. Something that is ALREADY DONE by baserunners with their eyes. And it's completely okay. Yes, I get the difference - but the intent is the same. But to compare this to the Black Sox scandal or an entire ERA of records tainted by illegal performance enhancing drugs is a bit off. Nah...way way off. Not even in the same stratosphere. So much outrage.
Trying to justify how "wrong" the wrongdoing is. "It's all cheating and bad, but this cheating is worse (because someone else did it). The other cheating I'm okay with (because I was part of it)." So indicative of where we are in this country.
Quote:
Jayson Stark
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@jaysonst
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First observation about Carlos Beltran:
Why was he the only player mentioned in Rob Manfred's Astros verdict?
Because MLB clearly was stating: "He lied about this. We promised him immunity so we can't suspend him. But we want the world to know he lied."
10:30 AM - 16 Jan 2020
I don't agree with Stark's take here. So everyone from that 2017 team who had anything to do with this, except Beltran, decided to rat on Cora and Hinch?
He's the only player because he's a former player. wont have beef with the players association
QT @S0_blessed1
My Tio Carlos is stepping down as Mets manager
2:11pm 15 Jan 2020
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Who is QT? :
QT
@S0_blessed1
No Autographs! Simple girl in a difficult city. Texas LonghornsAlum : Struggling med student - My favorite Uncle @Carlosbeltran15
Joined Mar 2017
Today:
QT
@S0_blessed1
Im told to stay quiet but I refuse sorry Tio Jose Altuve and Bregman wore devices that buzzed on inside right shoulder from hallway video guy.
Lets get it all out now
1:56pm 16 Jan 2020
IMO the only analogous sports situations are some of the things the Patriots have done, and this is like a combination of delfategate and spygate rolled into 1.
The same way Brady took too far what had been a normal practice of manipulating the football by QBs/Ks, Houston took sign stealing too far. Like spygate there was organizational endorsement of practices that went outside the gray area with the utilization of technology. In Brady's case the deflating of the balls wouldn't have happened without him. Period. A punishment was warranted. In deflategate the organization deserved a punishment.
In this case I find it hard to assess that any of this would have been stopped if Beltran didn't take part in it, which isn't the end all be all means of judging the punishment, but it seems wild to me that he is going to have such a severe punishment of losing his job beyond the majority of the principals who deserve the blame at the top of the Houston organization. And I don't trust the Mets FO to judge this fairly because they are always over concerned with random media perceptions. So I guess we wait to see what else comes out re: Beltran's role, but i'm skeptical anything different enough than what we already know will change the equation.
I guess that's why Altuve famously didn't want teammates ripping his jersey off after the walk-off HR against Chapman. Fuck that entire franchise, and God bless Jomboy and Beltran's niece.
I guess that's why Altuve famously didn't want teammates ripping his jersey off after the walk-off HR against Chapman. Fuck that entire franchise, and God bless Jomboy and Beltran's niece.
Jomboy's been saying almost from the beginning that he had players telling him that.
Quote:
to me that the MLB wanted to mention all of the involved players in the report but couldn't or was afraid to because of the player's union. Since Beltran is a former player and no longer covered by the union, he was fair game.
Give me Buck and all will be fine.
No chance, Mr. wants to come in the managers office whenever he wants
Is hiring Buck
I think it's more the reverse. No way Buck would take the job work for a "Mr. wants to go in the managers office whenever he wants "
Plus I doubt the Mets would pay what Buck is probably looking for in salary.
I think it'll either be Rojas, Perez and maybe even Collins again.
I guess that's why Altuve famously didn't want teammates ripping his jersey off after the walk-off HR against Chapman. Fuck that entire franchise, and God bless Jomboy and Beltran's niece.
Yup, as I mentioned above. They were cheating (again). Hinch won't be back in MLB.
Which actually makes the Nationals win that much more impressive. That said, when you are facing something like this, you are probably too distracted to feel the buzzer go off
@Jomboy_
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Beltran's niece tweeting about the buzzers, which matches up with what Ive been told from about 5 different parties.
11:09 AM - 16 Jan 2020
IMO the only analogous sports situations are some of the things the Patriots have done, and this is like a combination of delfategate and spygate rolled into 1.
The same way Brady took too far what had been a normal practice of manipulating the football by QBs/Ks, Houston took sign stealing too far. Like spygate there was organizational endorsement of practices that went outside the gray area with the utilization of technology. In Brady's case the deflating of the balls wouldn't have happened without him. Period. A punishment was warranted. In deflategate the organization deserved a punishment.
In this case I find it hard to assess that any of this would have been stopped if Beltran didn't take part in it, which isn't the end all be all means of judging the punishment, but it seems wild to me that he is going to have such a severe punishment of losing his job beyond the majority of the principals who deserve the blame at the top of the Houston organization. And I don't trust the Mets FO to judge this fairly because they are always over concerned with random media perceptions. So I guess we wait to see what else comes out re: Beltran's role, but i'm skeptical anything different enough than what we already know will change the equation.
Deflategate was reaction to systematic cheating over years and a threat to cut the crap out. It came out that many QBs would mess with the balls and it wasn't that big of a deal. But all the years of all the crap the Patriots would do resulted in that suspension.
I do agree that this is somewhat more in line with the video taping that the Pats did, but again, remember the stories that even Carl Banks mentioned when he said Rex Ryan as a youngster used to get a room at the hotel across Route 3 that saw the Giants practice field during the Eagles week and Parcells knew about it. Hell, the Giants had the rumors of messing with the doors at Giants Stadium for opposing field goals to screw with the winds. There is always some level of "gamesmanship", which is usually policed by the teams.
In this case, the Astros from the top down wanted to come up with a cheating scheme to tell hitters what pitch was coming in real time. And every pitch. That's waaaaaaaaay further than anything that has been seen before when a guy on 2nd can figure out the signs or a pitcher has a "tell".
Again, wait for the full report to come out. And even now with Beltran's niece blowing the doors off on Altuve and Bregman (which those 2 were specifically rumored as trusted team members). Go back and watch the home run and see how Altuve didn't want his jersey ripped off. This will haunt the Astros all season and I wouldn't be surprised to see them fold under this pressure. That was part of what the Mets would have to deal with just having Beltran around.
@Jomboy_
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Beltran's niece tweeting about the buzzers, which matches up with what Ive been told from about 5 different parties.
11:09 AM - 16 Jan 2020
Trevor Bauer @BauerOutage
Ive heard this from multiple parties too, for what its worth...
2:17pm 16 Jan 2020
This was interesting, too, though who the hell knows if it's true - Scott Brosius' son throwing out some accusations.
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In comment 14782082 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
To the people saying this was going to get ugly...exactly how? Would have blown over in a week. The Mets should know bad PR better than anyone.
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
Are you not aware of how much attention this has already gotten from fans, media and players?
This is Black Sox bad. Worse than the PED era to people who don't cheat.
JFC...some of your are out of your mind. This team video-relayed the catchers pitch calls electronically to hitters or whatever. Something that is ALREADY DONE by baserunners with their eyes. And it's completely okay. Yes, I get the difference - but the intent is the same. But to compare this to the Black Sox scandal or an entire ERA of records tainted by illegal performance enhancing drugs is a bit off. Nah...way way off. Not even in the same stratosphere. So much outrage.
Trying to justify how "wrong" the wrongdoing is. "It's all cheating and bad, but this cheating is worse (because someone else did it). The other cheating I'm okay with (because I was part of it)." So indicative of where we are in this country.
Yeah. Youre wrong about it being just like stealing signs. They had devices attached to their bodys that would buzz to let them know what pitch was coming.
But please, give us another long diatribe about how this is, indicative of where we are in this country.
LMFAO.
this team already has been designed internally within the Mets org, coaches players system analytics.
whoever comes to take the reins is going to be an internal candidate, not Buck Showalter
Showalter is interviewing in Boston. Same situation. Money talks.
Yup. He should be fired. Im tired of his shit
Michael Mayer
@mikemayerMMO
3m
Sources: Eduardo Perez is not expected to be among the interviewees for Mets new managerial opening.
Someone's burner account looking to settle some scores.
Link - ( New Window )
Astros report came out after he interviewed so unless the Mets knew before the public it's likely not the case.
He was only mentioned once in the report and you are a disingenuous piece of shit, because any time that fact was mentioned it was in response to fabricated claims that Beltran was a "ringleader" and by all accounts, including his apology, he was not.
Quote:
In comment 14782092 giantsFC said:
Quote:
In comment 14782082 TyreeHelmet said:
Quote:
To the people saying this was going to get ugly...exactly how? Would have blown over in a week. The Mets should know bad PR better than anyone.
MLB wasn't suspending him- why the hell does he have to lose his job? Gutless decision by the Mets. But go spew more bullshit about "integrity" Wilpons...your son fired a woman over getting pregnant. Scumbag family.
Are you not aware of how much attention this has already gotten from fans, media and players?
This is Black Sox bad. Worse than the PED era to people who don't cheat.
JFC...some of your are out of your mind. This team video-relayed the catchers pitch calls electronically to hitters or whatever. Something that is ALREADY DONE by baserunners with their eyes. And it's completely okay. Yes, I get the difference - but the intent is the same. But to compare this to the Black Sox scandal or an entire ERA of records tainted by illegal performance enhancing drugs is a bit off. Nah...way way off. Not even in the same stratosphere. So much outrage.
Trying to justify how "wrong" the wrongdoing is. "It's all cheating and bad, but this cheating is worse (because someone else did it). The other cheating I'm okay with (because I was part of it)." So indicative of where we are in this country.
Yeah. Youre wrong about it being just like stealing signs. They had devices attached to their bodys that would buzz to let them know what pitch was coming.
But please, give us another long diatribe about how this is, indicative of where we are in this country.
LMFAO.
The intent is the same...is it not?
In this case, the Astros from the top down wanted to come up with a cheating scheme to tell hitters what pitch was coming in real time. And every pitch. That's waaaaaaaaay further than anything that has been seen before when a guy on 2nd can figure out the signs or a pitcher has a "tell".
Again, wait for the full report to come out. And even now with Beltran's niece blowing the doors off on Altuve and Bregman (which those 2 were specifically rumored as trusted team members). Go back and watch the home run and see how Altuve didn't want his jersey ripped off. This will haunt the Astros all season and I wouldn't be surprised to see them fold under this pressure. That was part of what the Mets would have to deal with just having Beltran around.
Completely agree that the Astros institutional corruption is way above and beyond, along with the impact of the type of cheating they were doing. Organizationally I wouldn't have had any issue with a far harsher punishment. Take away twice as many draft picks and it still seems light.
Beltran's role is where things get murky for me just because he was a player. Whether he was enthusiastic and important in helping devise the system is secondary to me. He was a player, and not even 1 those whose performance mattered. Yes this will linger over the Astros and Red Sox over the year, but that's because those organizations benefitted. The Mets organization was obviously uninvolved. Perhaps the entire scandal is too deep for Beltran to be completely honest, but IMO the punishment outweighs the crimes of his direct participation as we currently understand it.
But, but, but....
Tiger Woods will never win another Major!
Ivn B
@B15Ivan
26m
Has anyone ever wondered why players such as Urshela and Tauchman all of a sudden & randomly have their breakout years? Hmmm.
.. YanKees havent heard the last..
@PeteBlackburn
2m
I am Jordan Binnington's niece and I heard he wore a shoulder buzzer when the Bruins refused to score on him in the Stanley Cup Final
@MarlyRiveraESPN
1h
The Beltrn family told me that this individual, who claims to be Carlos Beltrn's "niece", is not related to the family in any way. This person may or may not have additional information about the Houston Astros sign-stealing scandal, but they are not related to the Beltrns. https://twitter.com/Jomboy_/status
@PeteBlackburn
2m
I am Jordan Binnington's niece and I heard he wore a shoulder buzzer when the Bruins refused to score on him in the Stanley Cup Final
That is pretty damn funny
It is amazing that all of this stuff is coming out now after Beltran stepped down.
Never thought that the Giants have their coch for next year and the Mets are blowing in the wind.
And that is def the organizations fault for being so inept. But its where they are.
I personally don't want any avoidable media targets as a Mets fan. This team could be good.
I imagine any manager who doesn't have Mickey Callaway syndrome can help manage this team to competition.
And yeah, all these guys will probably surface as hot manager candidates in a year or two when this does down.
But it can never be in a NY Media market. come on, use your NY sports fan logic here. We all see how this goes every time in NY media land.
But why?
this seems big enough the MLBPA really has zero ground to stand on. this cheating scandal, while maybe technically not breaking a written rule (I mean is there a rule that said you can't bang a trashcan to indicate pitch type? - and the video equipment was in a legal place) - it's clearly cheating.
The league looks worse for not punishing the players. Not better.
The intent is the same...is it not?
Sure. So what? Method matters.
Example: I intend to make money shorting a stock. If I pick a stock a to short using public information = legal. If I puck a stock because my friend works there and tips me off = prison.
Runner at second peeking at signs = legal. Employee off the field using telescopes, cameras, electronics and remote signaling devices = not legal.
Its not rocket science.
Guys come on, this is turning into a witch hunt. Do some research before crying wolf. If you look anywhere on Twitter you can see other pictures where it shows its clearly a piece of wet confetti covering his necklace
Greg the gold part has been positively identify as confetti. The wire/chain, hard to say but it looks like a regular silver chain.
So in other words, their crisis strategy was:
Quote:
Guys come on, this is turning into a witch hunt. Do some research before crying wolf. If you look anywhere on Twitter you can see other pictures where it shows its clearly a piece of wet confetti covering his necklace
This appears to be accurate.
I don't know that's why imm asking. I don't dislike the Mets and don't understand the reverse take either
PhilPsi: You are aware your takes/bias and rationales are quite emotional? Or not?
Im going to guess that MLB cant go after the players so they are going hard after franchises and managers. Just a guess they called the Mets and said we aren't finished our investigation or punishments.
Sucks but right decision at this time. The Mets made a lof of good improvements and have a good team, one of the best of their recent teams...why distract the players and focus of the media on anything except how well the players are doing??
It may not have been smart to miss full due diligence on Beltran ( who was a guy who several teams including the Yankees wanted/hired back before all this) but this is a smart organizational move. Clears the decks for actually playing baseball
But why?
this seems big enough the MLBPA really has zero ground to stand on. this cheating scandal, while maybe technically not breaking a written rule (I mean is there a rule that said you can't bang a trashcan to indicate pitch type? - and the video equipment was in a legal place) - it's clearly cheating.
The league looks worse for not punishing the players. Not better.
The players do have a leg to stand on if the team was pushing the players to do this, which has basically been in the public record that they were from the highest levels for months now. I'm not a lawyer but whether the players were willing participants or not, wouldn't a person of authority providing the means and motivation to break rules basically be entrapment?
The email, which was reportedly sent in August 2017, details the team's scouting plans prior to the playoffs.
"One thing in specific we are looking for is picking up signs coming out of the dugout, the email, disclosed to The Athletic, read. What we are looking for is how much we can see, how we would log things, if we need cameras/binoculars, etc. So go to game, see what you can (or cant) do and report back your findings."
According to ESPN's Jeff Passan, the executive that sent the email is Kevin Goldstein, a special assistant to Houston general manager Jeff Luhnow.
Astros Executive Suggested Scouts Use Cameras to Steal Signs - ( New Window )
It might have been easy to assume he was the same old Beltran.
And he the person likely is. He was too close to the flames and im guessing here stonewalled higher ups that asked.
Natural when you are close to being named to your dream and you have contributed to baseball for so long.
All in all...missing his level of involvement is not a terrible mistake and terminating a major distraction before spring training when it would be a non stop media bombardment...smart organizational move that puts the players and fans first
imo
Was he the same guy who used to send out those baseball prospect updates each day for Baseball Prospectus (or someone)?
Making the excuse that they didn't know because they abdicated their responsibility to learn more in the last couple months is a failure unto itself.
The people who get screwed are the Mets fans. Whether investing with their wallets or hearts, it is gone beyond reasonable what this fan base has to endure.
Are you suggesting it's a coincidence that:
1. the Houston FO wanted to engage in electronic sign stealing.
and then
2. the players (with a bench coach heavily involved) engaged in electronic sign stealing.
??
Buck Showalter
Dusty Baker
John Gibbons
Bruce Bochy
Terry Collins
Luis Rojas
Possibly
Eduardo Perez (other reports say he is no longer a candidate)
Robin Ventura
Todd Zeile
Basically he said the Mets are in a really really bad spot with 20 days to go before Spring Training opens.
Buck Showalter
Dusty Baker
John Gibbons
Bruce Bochy
Terry Collins
Luis Rojas
Possibly
Eduardo Perez (other reports say he is no longer a candidate)
Robin Ventura
Todd Zeile
Basically he said the Mets are in a really really bad spot with 20 days to go before Spring Training opens.
No love for Bam Bam? Will this be an interim position? Whoever it is will have to deal with having no say in terms of coaches.
Quote:
nowhere in your link does it suggest they asked the players to do anything - it was scouts they asked according to the article - and in the MLB report it says it was a players meeting "including Carols Beltran" where the plan was discussed.
Are you suggesting it's a coincidence that:
1. the Houston FO wanted to engage in electronic sign stealing.
and then
2. the players (with a bench coach heavily involved) engaged in electronic sign stealing.
??
I'm not suggesting anything other than what we know as facts and the MLB report probably would have mentioned the front office initiated it, and they made no such claims.
Quote:
know what's wild? Kevin Goldstein privately broke the Beltran signing with the Mets news to me back in 2005.
Was he the same guy who used to send out those baseball prospect updates each day for Baseball Prospectus (or someone)?
Same guy, his Astros job was originally offered to Keith Law, Goldstein took it when Law declined. Always very nice and responsive to me when he had the newsletter.
No.
I don't know that's why imm asking. I don't dislike the Mets and don't understand the reverse take either
PhilPsi: You are aware your takes/bias and rationales are quite emotional? Or not?
Bill, it's a fair question. I'm sure that my responses do come off emotional at times but you can lump most the posters on the site in that group. My initial response was actually to another Mets fan, however.
I stayed away from these threads for a while because they fell into the predictable Mets fan/Yanks fan pissing match. But there's a lot of garbage on here, from both sides. Personally, I'm not as outraged by it but I can understand why Yankee fans would feel slighted by a possible missed opportunity.
But then I'm hearing that Cleveland (and apparently all other teams) knew that the Astros were doing this and the Indians would just change their signs. I'm not naive enough to believe that the league wasn't aware of this. They were. Or that other teams didn't know about it. They did. Or that plenty of other teams were also doing it. They were.
I'm sure plenty more information is going to come out. Should be interesting.
Its not a form of interaction in understand.
Now that the Mets are better ( the Yankees likely to be) there are reasons to brag and temptations to spread the emotions.
Hope our summer doesn't have a return to that ( and turbo charged for the NYG have not given any of us much in recent years).
As for this Beltran situation...its not an injury to a major player. Its not a change in how good a team you can field. I just don't think its a negative. Its an emotional suck and after years of bad luck we all tend to categorize sudden change as a loss ...but upon analysis I don't think it is.
This whole thing is a shame. I liked Carlos a ton and think he will make (or would have made) a good manager. But I do understand this. Mets are coming off a great second half and, other than Beltran, the enormous story has nothing to do with them.
I feel bad for Betances if him wanting to play for Beltran weighed in his decision to sign.
I feel genuinely sad for Carlos, but this is all avoided if he doesnt cheat. Personally Id see if Perez is interested. Otherwise maybe hire Collins for the year and do the search again next year, hopefully when Cohen is more involved.
Shame Fiers didnt come clean before Girardi was passed on.
This whole thing is a shame. I liked Carlos a ton and think he will make (or would have made) a good manager. But I do understand this. Mets are coming off a great second half and, other than Beltran, the enormous story has nothing to do with them.
I feel bad for Betances if him wanting to play for Beltran weighed in his decision to sign.
I feel genuinely sad for Carlos, but this is all avoided if he doesnt cheat. Personally Id see if Perez is interested. Otherwise maybe hire Collins for the year and do the search again next year, hopefully when Cohen is more involved.
Shame Fiers didnt come clean before Girardi was passed on.
ugh, stealing signs or not Mets just blew a huge opportunity to take control of the situation and are going to lose out on the manager who was going to bring this team to greatness.
I truly believed we had turned the corner
With all the outrage that is out there in the public over this whole thing, away fans better berate the Astros whenever they are on the road this year.
It's going to be hell on wheels for them in Yankee Stadium.
It might have been easy to assume he was the same old Beltran.
And he the person likely is. He was too close to the flames and im guessing here stonewalled higher ups that asked.
Natural when you are close to being named to your dream and you have contributed to baseball for so long.
All in all...missing his level of involvement is not a terrible mistake and terminating a major distraction before spring training when it would be a non stop media bombardment...smart organizational move that puts the players and fans first
imo
He's a rookie manager whose credibility took a major hit before he ever even got to spring training.
Anyone who thinks this story was going away in a week is out of their minds. This wasn't going away anytime soon.
It would have been a distraction to the team. When you have zero experience, you're not going to survive this shit storm.
Would really like Buck at this point.
Something does smell right in Metsville (Messville). I don't believe for 1 second that MLB had no say in this. Mets ownership went to MLB offices yesterday to get clarity and then decided he needs to go. Beltran did what he was asked to do. MLB publicly said he would face no suspension but BVW and Wilpon were very coy when it came to the conversations with MLB. MLB is not being very transparent which always suggests to me something is going on.
The worst part is that MLB didn't clue the Mets in at any point over the last few months and left them hanging. It's one thing to nail Houston and Boston but why are the Mets suffering? It is because Wilpon has no spine. For a guy that is so image conscious, he sure makes a lot of boneheaded decisions.When they said Beltran was sad I always felt he was sad he lost this opportunity.
At the end of the day what does this highlight. The Mets are a Mickey Mouse organization owned by spineless owners and there is no reason a manager or player should come to the NYM until they sell in a couple of years.
Link - ( New Window )
Something does smell right in Metsville (Messville). I don't believe for 1 second that MLB had no say in this. Mets ownership went to MLB offices yesterday to get clarity and then decided he needs to go. Beltran did what he was asked to do. MLB publicly said he would face no suspension but BVW and Wilpon were very coy when it came to the conversations with MLB. MLB is not being very transparent which always suggests to me something is going on.
The worst part is that MLB didn't clue the Mets in at any point over the last few months and left them hanging. It's one thing to nail Houston and Boston but why are the Mets suffering? It is because Wilpon has no spine. For a guy that is so image conscious, he sure makes a lot of boneheaded decisions.When they said Beltran was sad I always felt he was sad he lost this opportunity.
At the end of the day what does this highlight. The Mets are a Mickey Mouse organization owned by spineless owners and there is no reason a manager or player should come to the NYM until they sell in a couple of years. Link - ( New Window )
Doesn't smell right.
✔
@keithhernandez
Everybody, calm down. This current crisis is unfortunate to the nth degree, but not insurmountable. We have a solid team, good core of young everyday players, mixed with veterans, and a solid rotation. They have great camaraderie, spirit, a will to win, and theyre hungry
This will all iron itself out. So sit back, enjoy life. Life is good. Stop stressing. Our season will hinge on our bullpen. Betances is a good gamble and hes pitched in NY. Atlanta and Washington lost key offensive players. Division wide open and very competitive. So relax
Link - ( New Window )
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That Beltran was highly regarded as a baseball help by players and organizations for years.
It might have been easy to assume he was the same old Beltran.
And he the person likely is. He was too close to the flames and im guessing here stonewalled higher ups that asked.
Natural when you are close to being named to your dream and you have contributed to baseball for so long.
All in all...missing his level of involvement is not a terrible mistake and terminating a major distraction before spring training when it would be a non stop media bombardment...smart organizational move that puts the players and fans first
imo
+1. I don't see how this reflects badly on the Mets at all.
The only way it reflects badly on them to me is they either knew all about this or should've known.before or during the Beltran hire.
BVW is supposedly tight with Hinch as is Jessica Mendiza. I find it a bit hard to believe BVW or Mendoza didn't at least hear some whispers or given a heads up during the Beltran interview process.
If somehow they didn't know anything it begs the question why didn't they? It's not like this thing came out of the clear blue sky.
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In comment 14782381 Bill2 said:
Quote:
That Beltran was highly regarded as a baseball help by players and organizations for years.
It might have been easy to assume he was the same old Beltran.
And he the person likely is. He was too close to the flames and im guessing here stonewalled higher ups that asked.
Natural when you are close to being named to your dream and you have contributed to baseball for so long.
All in all...missing his level of involvement is not a terrible mistake and terminating a major distraction before spring training when it would be a non stop media bombardment...smart organizational move that puts the players and fans first
imo
+1. I don't see how this reflects badly on the Mets at all.
The only way it reflects badly on them to me is they either knew all about this or should've known.before or during the Beltran hire.
BVW is supposedly tight with Hinch as is Jessica Mendiza. I find it a bit hard to believe BVW or Mendoza didn't at least hear some whispers or given a heads up during the Beltran interview process.
If somehow they didn't know anything it begs the question why didn't they? It's not like this thing came out of the clear blue sky.
They absolutely knew, they just can't make that known/public because then the Mets are the team that knew and tried to keep Beltran regardless and had to have their hand forced.
All of a sudden the "lack of integrity bulls-eye" is right back on the Mets
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In comment 14782608 HomerJones45 said:
Quote:
In comment 14782381 Bill2 said:
Quote:
That Beltran was highly regarded as a baseball help by players and organizations for years.
It might have been easy to assume he was the same old Beltran.
And he the person likely is. He was too close to the flames and im guessing here stonewalled higher ups that asked.
Natural when you are close to being named to your dream and you have contributed to baseball for so long.
All in all...missing his level of involvement is not a terrible mistake and terminating a major distraction before spring training when it would be a non stop media bombardment...smart organizational move that puts the players and fans first
imo
+1. I don't see how this reflects badly on the Mets at all.
The only way it reflects badly on them to me is they either knew all about this or should've known.before or during the Beltran hire.
BVW is supposedly tight with Hinch as is Jessica Mendiza. I find it a bit hard to believe BVW or Mendoza didn't at least hear some whispers or given a heads up during the Beltran interview process.
If somehow they didn't know anything it begs the question why didn't they? It's not like this thing came out of the clear blue sky.
They absolutely knew, they just can't make that known/public because then the Mets are the team that knew and tried to keep Beltran regardless and had to have their hand forced.
All of a sudden the "lack of integrity bulls-eye" is right back on the Mets
You may be right, and just to be clear I'm not taking a shot at the Mets here. I'd feel the exact same if you replaced "Mets" with any other team.
Out of the list below from betonline.ag
Eduardo Perez: +300
Hensley Meulens: +350
Luis Rojas: +400
Tim Bogar: +400
Terry Collins: +700
Tony DeFrancesco: +700
Bruce Bochy: +900
Buck Showalter: +900
Dusty Baker: +900
John Gibbons: +1000
Kevin Long: +1200
I think Perez and Muelens make the most sense (hence the strong odds. I want nothing to do with Rojas. He didn't make it past 1st round the last time. Collins to me would be a stop gap until new ownership takes over. To me a waste. Honestly if Bochy was interested I think he could be an interesting choice. World Series winner. Just not sure how he would work with existing coaching staff or analytics.
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Eduardo Perez says Mets haven't contacted him, speaks about Carlos Beltran situation http://dlvr.it/RNFNF9
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15h15 hours ago
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Hey @TheClemReport hows this for full circle! Mets tried to trade Wilmer Flores for Carlos Gomez in 2015 but Mets back out. Milwaukee sends Gomez to Houston with Mike Fiers who exposed the scandal thus leading to the dominos falling including Beltrans dismissal! Wow!!
If they truly cared about winning it would be Buck or Dusty. Or give Bochy a call and see if he changed his mind about retirement.
If they truly cared about winning it would be Buck or Dusty. Or give Bochy a call and see if he changed his mind about retirement.
Not intended to be provocative coming from a Yankees fan, but I'm shocked that a fan of any team with a good pitching staff would want Dusty Baker as their manager.
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so it will probably be Rojas or Muelens.
If they truly cared about winning it would be Buck or Dusty. Or give Bochy a call and see if he changed his mind about retirement.
Not intended to be provocative coming from a Yankees fan, but I'm shocked that a fan of any team with a good pitching staff would want Dusty Baker as their manager.
Indeed.
Personally, Id go with Rojas or Perez or Meulens if they truly believe in their long-term abilities.
If not, Id ask Terry Collins to return for one year and do a proper search next November.
My out of the box choices would be Fonzie and an inquiry to David Wright.
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In comment 14783982 Eric on Li said:
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so it will probably be Rojas or Muelens.
If they truly cared about winning it would be Buck or Dusty. Or give Bochy a call and see if he changed his mind about retirement.
Not intended to be provocative coming from a Yankees fan, but I'm shocked that a fan of any team with a good pitching staff would want Dusty Baker as their manager.
Indeed.
Personally, Id go with Rojas or Perez or Meulens if they truly believe in their long-term abilities.
If not, Id ask Terry Collins to return for one year and do a proper search next November.
My out of the box choices would be Fonzie and an inquiry to David Wright.
Probably the only Mets fan saying this but I like the younger approach to hiring a manager who studies analytics.
Analytics has the power to finding flaws and either exposing or correcting.
Mets have a number of players that need to have their techniques studied and tweaked, Beltran was going to be the perfect fit for that need.
Rojas could be the next best option, however whoever they hire they better lean on Meulens when deciding.
A young guy with fresh ideas can certainly work, baseball managing isn't the most complicated job in the sports world - but they also don't have experience with the media and can get overwhelmed here. Or not know how to be the right kind of leader. Or make tactical mistakes from never having managed before.
Callaway just did all of those things over the past 2 years and at least last year I think he honestly cost them the playoffs. I believe his awful leadership and terrible command of in-game decisions cost them a lot more games than a typical manager would. If they had 1 extra win for every time he had to publicly apologize to the team/media last year they'd have won 90.
the Brewers made the 2nd WC with a record of 89-73 and just a +3 run differential.
Off the top of my head - twice Callaway apologized for pulling Thor too early with low pitch counts, once in front of the whole team if I'm remembering correctly. He did the same with Matz in a game down the stretch when his pitch could was like in the 70's/80's and I think he had a shutout going for a time. And obviously there's the Nats comeback game where he started the 9th inning with like Seawald - another young guy - and then Avilan vs. a righty.
Not firing him in June - when for the 2nd straight year his team literally went in the tank for him to the point of almost ending the season pre ASB - cost them the playoffs.
Id really prefer Collins for one year, but Baker, Bochy, Buck to stabilize the mood and let the club work is the call I think.
86 win team that played .634 ball 2nd half - you just want someone who can minimize the distraction and move forward. I say Collins because he obviously knows the job and his players went hard for him.
But man, ready to get this over and get to camp cause its hard not to lose sight of the fact that this team had a great run to end the year and has a good shot at improvement with Betances on board and hopefully a bounce back from at least one of Diaz and Familia.
Braves and Nats both lost some key pieces. They can be in the mix with good health and a bullpen resurgence.
So odd to see three manager vacancies in Jan, let alone the 17 & 18 champs and an 86 win team returning the cy young and ROY.
the Brewers made the 2nd WC with a record of 89-73 and just a +3 run differential.
Off the top of my head - twice Callaway apologized for pulling Thor too early with low pitch counts, once in front of the whole team if I'm remembering correctly. He did the same with Matz in a game down the stretch when his pitch could was like in the 70's/80's and I think he had a shutout going for a time. And obviously there's the Nats comeback game where he started the 9th inning with like Seawald - another young guy - and then Avilan vs. a righty.
Not firing him in June - when for the 2nd straight year his team literally went in the tank for him to the point of almost ending the season pre ASB - cost them the playoffs.
I'm not sure about that, I watched alot of post game pressers after wins last year with the Mets.
Mets players knew Callaway was on the hot seat and were playing hard for him and constantly credited him for his coaching moments.
Also if he somehow trades for Marte and it doesnt include Nimmo (which no one thinks is a good idea) then it may even be dumber unless there is a parallel trade to remove glut of outfielders.
Id really prefer Collins for one year, but Baker, Bochy, Buck to stabilize the mood and let the club work is the call I think.
86 win team that played .634 ball 2nd half - you just want someone who can minimize the distraction and move forward. I say Collins because he obviously knows the job and his players went hard for him.
But man, ready to get this over and get to camp cause its hard not to lose sight of the fact that this team had a great run to end the year and has a good shot at improvement with Betances on board and hopefully a bounce back from at least one of Diaz and Familia.
Braves and Nats both lost some key pieces. They can be in the mix with good health and a bullpen resurgence.
So odd to see three manager vacancies in Jan, let alone the 17 & 18 champs and an 86 win team returning the cy young and ROY.
Dont want Baker with this coaching staff. Would be fine with Bochy. I am also comfortable giving Meulens a shot. He coached under Bochy and Mets thought enough of him to bench coach a rookie manager.